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Jetstar EBA 2019

Old 7th Jul 2019, 01:22
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Jetstar EBA 2019

Just starting a thread on this topic. A bit of chatter in the Tiger EBA thread about JQ stuff, so hereís a clean thread. Go for it.

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Old 7th Jul 2019, 03:50
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Standard 3 percent in line with Qantas Group policy that will take around 24 months of negotiating to settle is my prediction.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 04:51
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Take on the Tiger go on... see if ya can...
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 06:36
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
Standard 3 percent in line with Qantas Group policy that will take around 24 months of negotiating to settle is my prediction.
The negotiating strategy is always to delay until such time as there is sufficient 'back payment' and a correspondingly weaker economy with which to drive through desired change, with a little fear, uncertainty and doubt.
Ask US ALPA, it has been standard for decades.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 09:39
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As against what? I love the attitude of Ďyou first, solidarity brother, Iím right behind you (hands ready to push)

i know....Why not go for broke......

Perhaps a 25% rise, cherrypick from everyone elseís agreement and ratchet up with some good old pattern bargaining techniques.... after all, Tiger pilots are doing sooo well.

and when you donít get what you want?

Well its 30 years ago this year, how about a little history lesson (or lack thereof)
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 22:48
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That’s a rubbish argument for not negotiating hard to improve conditions.

JQ serves its market and its purpose...and it’s here to stay.

Legally, there are protections in place for collective action. I’m not saying that’s the way to go...I believe the opposite.. but the attitude that by negotiating hard, then striking, then losing ones job is scraping the bottom of the intellectual industrial bucket and unhelpful for those who hope to change their industrial landscape.

“I love the attitude of ‘you first, solidarity brother, I’m right behind you (hands ready to push)” .... don’t worry QF mgmt know that’s the JPC way and it causes them as many headaches as it does opportunity.

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Old 8th Jul 2019, 03:13
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Unfortunately, sometimes this is the only language management understands:

US $56 million loss from strike
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 11:42
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The next big one appears like itís going to be BA. Offer rejected 11 odd percent and crisis talks underway right now to avoid summer schedule chaos.
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Old 13th Jul 2019, 06:04
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If a pilot can be suspended without pay because their ASIC, passport, or medical is not renewed within a certain period before expiry, then shouldn't the same apply to the EBA ? Shouldn't the next EBA be also approved before the current EBA expires ?

If the EBA has expired, and there is obviously no "good faith" in negotiating the next one, isn't this a valid reason to apply for PIA NOW !

Or do we just let it drag on for another year or 2 so they can use back pay as an additional bargaining chip, whilst we miss out on a pay rise ?

There should only be 3 firm options NOW:
- present the new EBA NOW, which has been successfully negotiated with the reps
- otherwise in the meantime just pay the 3%, whilst negotiating the fine detail of the next EBA
- or apply for PIA NOW

Last edited by a_pilot; 13th Jul 2019 at 12:29.
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Old 13th Jul 2019, 06:22
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If a pilot can be suspended without pay because their ASIC, passport, or medical is not renewed within a certain period before expiry, then shouldn't the same apply to the EBA ? Shouldn't the next EBA be also approved before the current EBA expires ?
That is interesting.
It would be an interesting day in court for that to be deemed appropriate and not punitive.
Your wider points highlight a problem of the 'system namely there is no risk or penalty applied to a company that drags it feet while the 'back pay' accumulates generating leverage against an employee group.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 00:24
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a_pilot,

Nope, the option you have failed to put is:

Let the negotiations drag out for at least 18 months beyond the current EBA expiry, negotiate the bare minimum required to get a slender majority to vote yes as most pilots won't support PIA and go off into the sunset knowing the company has saved 18 months of payrises buy dragging it all out.

The usual garbage has already started, I was told by a very senior manager last week that JANZ will be getting ALL of the A321 XLR's but has not been confirmed as it is pilot EBA time and they don't want grounds for more pay requests due to midhaul operations and that if the pilots as for too much those aircraft and its flying will go to more 'cost effective' pilot groups within the group. So the usual crap, dangle the shiny new aircraft at the gullible pilots and see how many will settle to ensure a change to fly them.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 00:36
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
a_pilot,

Nope, the option you have failed to put is:

Let the negotiations drag out for at least 18 months beyond the current EBA expiry, negotiate the bare minimum required to get a slender majority to vote yes as most pilots won't support PIA and go off into the sunset knowing the company has saved 18 months of payrises buy dragging it all out.

The usual garbage has already started, I was told by a very senior manager last week that JANZ will be getting ALL of the A321 XLR's but has not been confirmed as it is pilot EBA time and they don't want grounds for more pay requests due to midhaul operations and that if the pilots as for too much those aircraft and its flying will go to more 'cost effective' pilot groups within the group. So the usual crap, dangle the shiny new aircraft at the gullible pilots and see how many will settle to ensure a change to fly them.
Wash, rinse, repeat.

Yet in many other countries pilots are proving the omnipotent IR framework is vulnerable to changing the narrative of 'negotiation'
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 00:50
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Let the negotiations drag out for at least 18 months beyond the current EBA expiry
Are you going to repeat mistakes from the past ?

PIA NOW.

You don't actually have to wait 18 months or 2 years to file for PIA.

You don't have to wait for a document to be produced or to make a no vote.

You can apply for PIA anytime during negotiations after an expired agreement.

Are you going to allow them to deliberately stall you for another year or 2 ? Do something about it NOW.

Industrial action:

Industrial action is only protected if:
- it is action taken by employees (or their bargaining representatives) to support claims in relation to an enterprise agreement (employee claim action) or
- the action meets the common and additional requirements for protection, which include:
  • not taking action before the nominal expiry date of an industrial agreement (including those workplace agreements made under the previous Workplace Relations Act 1996 eg. collective agreements, Australian Workplace Agreement (AWAs) and Individual Transitional Employment Agreement (ITEAs)
  • parties genuinely trying to reach agreement
The EBA has expired and Jetstar is not genuinely trying to reach an agreement.

Doesn't this meet the criteria to file for PIA ?

The fact that the Chief Pilot has already stated in writing not to expect more than 3% indicates it will be a strong NO vote. You already know the expected EBA and the result of the vote.

Why wait 2 years for a document which you know will only give you 3% and you also miss out on a payrise in the meantime ?

Why wait 2 years and allow them to use back pay as leverage against you ?

Why wait 2 years for a document that you already know will be unacceptable ?

It is time for action NOW.

Last edited by a_pilot; 14th Jul 2019 at 01:27.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 04:53
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Originally Posted by a_pilot View Post
Are you going to repeat mistakes from the past ?

PIA NOW.

You don't actually have to wait 18 months or 2 years to file for PIA.

You don't have to wait for a document to be produced or to make a no vote.

You can apply for PIA anytime during negotiations after an expired agreement.

Are you going to allow them to deliberately stall you for another year or 2 ? Do something about it NOW.

Industrial action:



The EBA has expired and Jetstar is not genuinely trying to reach an agreement.

Doesn't this meet the criteria to file for PIA ?

The fact that the Chief Pilot has already stated in writing not to expect more than 3% indicates it will be a strong NO vote. You already know the expected EBA and the result of the vote.

Why wait 2 years for a document which you know will only give you 3% and you also miss out on a payrise in the meantime ?

Why wait 2 years and allow them to use back pay as leverage against you ?

Why wait 2 years for a document that you already know will be unacceptable ?

It is time for action NOW.
You have found the PIA information on the Fair Work web site. Look to the bottom of the page and see where the action can be terminated. You then need to understand may happen if action is terminated (hint - bargaining period of 21 days then a determination by Fair Work). You also need to understand that those criteria to terminate industrial action apply to employer response action. You also need to understand that employer response action is a lockout and does not need to be proportional to the employee claim action. So, you can do something that you think is pretty harmless and the company takes drastic response action that triggers a termination. If you think you will get a good outcome from a determination, you need to think about how the coalition government has been stacking the Fair Work Commission with pro-employer Deputy Presidents and Commissioners. Obviously, that is all worst-case, but you need to understand all of the implications if you are advocating for PIA.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 05:14
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I hope the boys and girls are up for a bit of a fight. As I've said before, of any NB 180 seat operator in Aus, JQ fly the largest aircraft, the most passengers, the longest distances and do the most sectors. All for the least amount of money in the country.

Something has to change. Any agreement that puts us behind Tiger (no disrespect to the fine people at Tiger) is just unacceptable in my view. Im certainly prepared to roll the dice on PIA should no progress be made towards that goal. I don't know how the commission looks at what we do, as described above, not to mention the increased capability offered by RNP, Cat iiib low vis etc etc, the fact we carry 60 extra people and adjudicates that we don't deserve at least parity with Tiger.

I hope it doesn't come to PIA, but I think in a years or two time, it may have to.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 06:26
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Why on earth are pilots scared of being locked out? It's a worry I have to share an enclosed space with you.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 08:11
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Originally Posted by ConfigFull View Post
Why on earth are pilots scared of being locked out? It's a worry I have to share an enclosed space with you.
Exactly! I have been locked out, my only regret is still being in port when services recommenced.
I should have paid my own way home along with every other Captain in the company and let the company sort out the subsequent mess!
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 09:02
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Originally Posted by Tankengine View Post

Exactly! I have been locked out, my only regret is still being in port when services recommenced.
I should have paid my own way home along with every other Captain in the company and let the company sort out the subsequent mess!
Given Little Napoleon's 'risk case' for the immediate grounding of Qantas in 2011 was in-fact the human factor risks, pilots ought have done exactly that; taken a break for at least a week as the 'human-factor' impact was digested.
As Paul Keating lamented, had Prime Minister Gillard not done anything, the problem would have been resolved in a week and Little Napoleon and the disingenuous bunch of misfits, loosely called a board would have been finished.

The grounding lock-out was a one shot deal. He executed.
Practically speaking, how could he ever 'de-transform' Qantas having assured all that he alone 'transformed a previously terminal business?
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 10:17
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It isnít the lock out that is the concern, it is the determination that comes afterward. ĎFair Workí is not fair. I am not saying donít do it, I am just pointing out that you need to understand the risk so that you can make an informed decision.
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Old 16th Jul 2019, 04:56
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This optimiser comes in September, which will give us minimum rest between flights, and max length duty days otherwise also inconsistent work and sleep patterns, from early to late, with time zone changes and also back of the clock. Many patterns will include consecutive back of the clock with day rest only, and often away from home.

If we possibly might change the way we work effective September, this is all due the fatiguing patterns from the optimiser, nothing else.

If I can't sleep well during the day because I am not in my own bed, but at a hotel with noise outside, and if I can't do a back of the clock later that day, this is genuine fatigue. (remember our obligations regarding fitness for duty)

If I have minimum rest between lengthy duties, and choose to rest as long as I can, and come to work and commence my duties exactly at sign on, this is genuine resting as much as I can in the minimum allocated rest period before the next lengthy duty.

If we are feeling fatigued and no longer have the energy and enthusiasm anymore to do such things as come in 30 minutes early or earlier, this is because we are genuinely fatigued due to the optimiser.

Are you afraid of being locked out ?

Let them lock us out and take it to the FWC.

Where does it say anywhere that we must commence duties before sign on ?

There is nothing illegal with commencing work at sign on time. .

Do you think fair work will come back and say that we must commence work well before sign on ? Bring it on

Last edited by a_pilot; 16th Jul 2019 at 05:32.
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