Jetstar EBA 2019
Most other industries that have similar union density to that of pilots (maritime, mining and construction just to name a few), that have a significantly trained/educated skill level, get paid more to work less, have better conditions and have negotiated pay increases in line with or above inflation (generally with clauses that increase at a certain rate, or CPI if higher).
But sure, just keep squirting crap out to suit your narrative.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Round the corner
Age: 61
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This EA is rapidly becoming a vote not only for working conditions for a pilot body but also a vote on the continued rellevance of the AFAP within the Australian airline landscape.
Get this one wrong again and you stand to lose a lot of PAYING MEMBERS.
After all, this EA is about the needs of Jetstar Pilots isn't it? It is certainly not about the needs of the AFAP. { See previous FOI posts. }
Fly safe.
MCD
Get this one wrong again and you stand to lose a lot of PAYING MEMBERS.
After all, this EA is about the needs of Jetstar Pilots isn't it? It is certainly not about the needs of the AFAP. { See previous FOI posts. }
Fly safe.
MCD
Last edited by ManillaChillaDilla; 22nd Oct 2022 at 10:14.
As much As I don't like this deal (some things are okay, doesn't go far enough) and the constant bickering between the unions frustrates the hell out of me, I do feel a bit sorry for both unions. Do not underestimate how much hatred and anger there is amongst the pilot group for JQ. This is not just frustration or a dislike of a few management characters etc, this is 100% pure hatred for the company. They feel over worked, under paid, not respected anywhere near their pears at QF or link and they have had enough. There is zero good will left.
Unfortunately for the AFAP (did they not read the room?) Some of that is now being directed at them. This agreement does not match the expectations of many. They are upset and are voicing that. But, it was always going to be difficult to get their message across the rage and hatred.
Unfortunately for the AFAP (did they not read the room?) Some of that is now being directed at them. This agreement does not match the expectations of many. They are upset and are voicing that. But, it was always going to be difficult to get their message across the rage and hatred.
As for now being remunerated for a misconnection into a day off, 4 hours at EFA rate between 2300-0100 and a WDO beyond that, is a far cry from the DIL I currently get that I can never use, which = zero. Are you seriously suggesting all improvements should be designed bespoke to a specific base because of curfews? I’d suggest we keep an eye on the bigger picture.
The company will not “simulate decent crew numbers” in lieu of a WDO provision, nor should we think that’s something we want. The nature of a leisure airline model is very cyclical in a year with its peaks and troughs, they can bump up the revenue exponentially in peaks relying on WDOs to get around our highly restrictive standby coverage limits. Works for those that want the cash, if you don’t wish to lose your DDO, don’t put your name on the list… Simply adding pilots to kill off that flexibility is dumb business and of course they won’t do that.
As for the CPI argument, well we were the masters of our own demise 3 years ago in our actions. We put ourselves behind, sorry, that’s the reality. And the “what we should be on anyway “ argument, sorry but again that’s ridiculous. All the company has to do is satisfy the BOOT, they’re under no legal obligations here to do anything but that. This well exceeds the BOOT as far as I can tell.
Whilst everything traded in this EA comes at a cost, or “penalty” as you see it, I can see we’ve given very little away for immense benefit to us overall.
Vote this down at our own peril. If you think our predicament was bad from knocking back the 3%’s, 3 years ago and entering PIA, then try this on for size and learn the hardest lesson we’ll ever learn.
Vote this down at our own peril. If you think our predicament was bad from knocking back the 3%’s, 3 years ago and entering PIA, then try this on for size and learn the hardest lesson we’ll ever learn.
The AFAP had a role to play in managing realistic expectations. Unfortunately, their leadership throughout this process in setting those expectations (through conduct and communications) is now coming back to bite.
Right so we vote for something based on airframes that haven't even arrived and history has shown are often deferred or cancelled. The LRs seem to be doing CNS returns and the XLRs are due when? Keith you very publicly highlight the problem with the AFAP. No willingness to work with anyone else and an arrogance that makes Putin look like Forrest Gump. You lost a lot of people during that ridiculous PIA that cost the pilots 3% from 2020 and you now just assume that because the AFAP has decreed the pilots will follow. Put it to the vote then and see what your constituents think. After all you should be doing this for the benefit of all the pilots and not just the WA cabal.
Lookleft, do you even work for Jetstar?
What is it you want?
What are you going to do to get it?
You criticize the AFAP's PIA, yet have no logical plan for voting this agreement down. What is going to make the company give more? A sternly worded PA and red tie campaign?
From what I’ve seen, this is was a good deal, turned into an excellent deal with last weeks 3% announcement. A multitude of lifestyle improvements (something that most on here can’t seem to define what they actually mean by the the term) and an immediate 12% pay rise with 18% over the life of the agreement. That’s before you consider the incremental increases in EFA / WDO / DTA / ODTA etc, 50% highline paid from sign-on to sign-off on multi day trips…. PLUS PLUS.
No there won't. There are nil extra standby days. It's still 3 below 75 hours.
If SYD, ADL or OOL crew miss curfew and then operate / pax home the next day, they get a full WDO. As far as I can tell, aircraft don't care if it's a curfew port before going tech. Also, if they are pushing curfew and still manage to land, but set the park brake after 2245 they will still get the 4 hrs hard credit as their sign off will be after 2300.
and that extra half WDO for finishing after 23:00 before a day off does not benefit SY or ADL base with curfew so you will be signed off before 23:00. WDO increase who cares i would be happy if we removed that clause all together might actually stimulate some decent crew numbers. I could go on but I will not be convinced it’s a good deal because they offer what we really should be on with normal CPI increases over last 4yrs while giving more lifestyle conditions.
If SYD, ADL or OOL crew miss curfew and then operate / pax home the next day, they get a full WDO. As far as I can tell, aircraft don't care if it's a curfew port before going tech. Also, if they are pushing curfew and still manage to land, but set the park brake after 2245 they will still get the 4 hrs hard credit as their sign off will be after 2300.
This is my concern, ppl just jumping at 2/5ths of f all money and giving away conditions which is all we have thinking its a pay rise when it is not,let be clear on that! it will be all in the wording and I guarantee it will favor the company to use the concessions in a much worse way than intended.
Thread Starter
Qantas Group (Read JETSTAR incl) are on track for record profits in 2023.
The urgency to lock in this deal by the company is glaringly obvious..? Lock in these fools for another 3 years with no lifestyle provisions BEFORE this is announced.. Burn them out up into Asia in their new neos every week. Away from home life. Bosses enjoying their bonuses and kpi’s. No PIA over Xmas. Massive bonuses. High Fives.
The ‘negotiators’ deserve an Oscar for best acting in a drama series, and scaremongering.
The urgency to lock in this deal by the company is glaringly obvious..? Lock in these fools for another 3 years with no lifestyle provisions BEFORE this is announced.. Burn them out up into Asia in their new neos every week. Away from home life. Bosses enjoying their bonuses and kpi’s. No PIA over Xmas. Massive bonuses. High Fives.
The ‘negotiators’ deserve an Oscar for best acting in a drama series, and scaremongering.
Qantas Group (Read JETSTAR incl) are on track for record profits in 2023.
The urgency to lock in this deal by the company is glaringly obvious..? Lock in these fools for another 3 years with no lifestyle provisions BEFORE this is announced.. Burn them out up into Asia in their new neos every week. Away from home life. Bosses enjoying their bonuses and kpi’s. No PIA over Xmas. Massive bonuses. High Fives.
The ‘negotiators’ deserve an Oscar for best acting in a drama series, and scaremongering.
The urgency to lock in this deal by the company is glaringly obvious..? Lock in these fools for another 3 years with no lifestyle provisions BEFORE this is announced.. Burn them out up into Asia in their new neos every week. Away from home life. Bosses enjoying their bonuses and kpi’s. No PIA over Xmas. Massive bonuses. High Fives.
The ‘negotiators’ deserve an Oscar for best acting in a drama series, and scaremongering.
Jetstar is not a viable long term employment option.
Jetstar F/O here.
I'm looking at spending the next 25 years of my life flying planes.
I have a growing family with young kids at home.
I want to be able to afford them a decent middle-class living standard in an Australian capital city (where most Jetstar pilots are based by the way) AND I want to have enough free time to be able to see them growing up.
The proposed EBA does not fulfil these requirements so it's a NO vote for me.
Very simple decision.
I'm looking at spending the next 25 years of my life flying planes.
I have a growing family with young kids at home.
I want to be able to afford them a decent middle-class living standard in an Australian capital city (where most Jetstar pilots are based by the way) AND I want to have enough free time to be able to see them growing up.
The proposed EBA does not fulfil these requirements so it's a NO vote for me.
Very simple decision.
As an F/O, what exactly were you expecting from the proposed agreement?
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.
By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.
By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.
As an F/O, what exactly were you expecting from the proposed agreement?
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.
By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.
By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.
The best thing about this job was the lack of time away from home base, the Optimiser has f&*ked that and changed the entire dynamic of this job. Any EBA needs some serious lifestyle provisions as the rosters generated by the optimiser are not sustainable.
As an F/O, what exactly were you expecting from the proposed agreement?
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.
By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.
By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.
Three basic items come to mind immediately:
1) lower EFA threshold. It should be 60-65 hours max;
2) minimum credit for standby during roster building. At the moment it is nil and it shouldn't be;
2) with the weird multi-day trips that the optimizer is spitting out without apparent regard for JBid and the arrival of the LRs and XLRs, there are going to be more and more overnights. There should be some rules around how many overnights can be rostered and how they should be spread around the crews, at least for the Airbus fleet.
Just my two cents
As an F/O, what exactly were you expecting from the proposed agreement?
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.
By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.
By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.
- A complete redesign of the ridiculous leave system.
- JBID facilitating high density flying requests with resulting DFD’s. Currently JBID and the optimiser are programmed to provided minimum days off regardless of density preferences.
- The ability to formally bid IN for overnights or OUT. The people that want them aren’t getting enough, the people that don’t want them are getting to many.
- “Vacant” duties to be assigned within 2 hours. No more of this rubbish 3am phone call on just about EVERY standby because crewing are “keeping their options open”.
Well I am an enthusiastic YES voter. My Base Salary will be $246,765 at the end of the agreement which as has been pointed out isn’t that far away. Doing the overnights and hours I do now, which is as little work as possible I expect to earn $285,000. I don’t work any EFA and I’m not interested in WDOs so I don’t work any, and my lifestyle is all the better for it. If I get rostered crap, which is most times, I go fatigued generally on the last day of a run of 5 (early, early, late, late, late). FTG the last late and it turns my crap 3 days off recovery into 4 days and costs me zero. If Jetstar want to roster me crap, no problem, FTG and I make it their problem. I’ve never had a FTG day get nocked back. I get FO’s complaining all the time about how it shouldn’t be this way, I agree, but it is so why work yourself into a lather of worry when you can just use the fatigue procedures to make it their problem. We’re never in EFA so who cares if we drop hours. I don’t understand why pilots want a lower EFA threshold, it just puts more money at risk.
A big thanks to the reps who made it possible. I hope I’m in the silent majority and I’m eternally grateful for your work. I’ll buy you a beer at the roadshow or downrange.
A big thanks to the reps who made it possible. I hope I’m in the silent majority and I’m eternally grateful for your work. I’ll buy you a beer at the roadshow or downrange.