Jetstar EBA 2019
FOI, are you saying QF is financially unsustainable if they had to pay salaries that don’t see their staff going backwards at soon-to-be double digits? We’re not talking about payrises here, not even close.
I think you make a potentially damaging claim if that is what you’re saying.
Out of interest, how much have ticket prices gone up? And how much has profit gone up during this challenging time?
I think you make a potentially damaging claim if that is what you’re saying.
Out of interest, how much have ticket prices gone up? And how much has profit gone up during this challenging time?
Just been going through some old AFAP emails.
This was the result of the EBA survey back in 2018.
The survey indicated that a better work life balance is a big ticket item yet nothing in the proposed EBA addresses this.
Seriously, apart from pay increases (to try to keep up with inflation), this is all else we are getting (outside work):
Excuse my ignorance, but I don't see any improvement in work life balance.
Yet here is another quote from an AFAP email (Mar 2019)
Thanks for highlighting this to Jetstar and also reminding Jetstar pilots how worse off they are, yet nothing was done about it. Wouldn't more DDO's improve the work/life balance ?
Here is another quote from an AFAP email November 2019:
Isn't it time to for the Union to represent it's members and fight for that they wanted (a better work/life balance) using all available tools? (as we were advised last time and as they intended and commenced)
If this EBA gets through, it will be nothing but a pay increase to attempt to keep up with inflation, but otherwise the same old ****, work hard, get flogged, and tired all the time (work harder/earn less than others). Is this what you want?
This was the result of the EBA survey back in 2018.
The EBA negotiations are approaching fast and your JPFC are utilising the survey results to compile the log of claims for EBA 2019. Your message is clear, with the big ticket items including:
·an increase in remuneration;
·combining the Roster Protocol Agreement into the body of the new EBA; and
·the establishment of a better work life balance.
·an increase in remuneration;
·combining the Roster Protocol Agreement into the body of the new EBA; and
·the establishment of a better work life balance.
Seriously, apart from pay increases (to try to keep up with inflation), this is all else we are getting (outside work):
- 4 additional star days per pilot (but still the same amount of days off)
- Access to fixed days off and or a fixed roster pattern for eligible Carer’s (2% pilots only)
- Modified ACALS to improve access to leave
- Improvements to annual leave availability:
Excuse my ignorance, but I don't see any improvement in work life balance.
Yet here is another quote from an AFAP email (Mar 2019)
We highlighted that the Tigerair EA that is currently out for vote has 137 DDOs, Virgin Narrow Body has 149 DDOs, Virgin Wide Body A330 has 149 DDOs and Virgin Wide Body B777 has 143 DDOs. The point being that our competitor airlines (other than Qantas) all have significantly more designated days off.
Here is another quote from an AFAP email November 2019:
What is Protected Industrial Action (PIA)?
PIA is a genuine and legitimate industrial tool that union members are lawfully entitled to utilise to ‘persuade’ an employer to ‘reconsider’ their position; i.e. in the words of Act: “…for the purpose of supporting or advancing claims in relation to an Agreement.”
PIA is a genuine and legitimate industrial tool that union members are lawfully entitled to utilise to ‘persuade’ an employer to ‘reconsider’ their position; i.e. in the words of Act: “…for the purpose of supporting or advancing claims in relation to an Agreement.”
If this EBA gets through, it will be nothing but a pay increase to attempt to keep up with inflation, but otherwise the same old ****, work hard, get flogged, and tired all the time (work harder/earn less than others). Is this what you want?
Last edited by a_pilot; 3rd Nov 2022 at 09:38.
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Its a net zero gain.
Anybody thinking this is a " pay rise " has obviously forgotten that they haven't had a pay rise in 5 years.
Zero lifestyle improvements and only getting paid what your owed. Who is the AFAP actually working for?
Does anyone actually think this is the only deal on the table?
NO.
MCD
Anybody thinking this is a " pay rise " has obviously forgotten that they haven't had a pay rise in 5 years.
Zero lifestyle improvements and only getting paid what your owed. Who is the AFAP actually working for?
Does anyone actually think this is the only deal on the table?
NO.
MCD
Last edited by ManillaChillaDilla; 3rd Nov 2022 at 09:04.
If you think that inflation is "only" 6ish%, maybe have a rethink at what your personal inflation is tracking at for the year.
News.com.au have a calculator that lets you plug in a few variables to see what real inflation rate you're personally looking at - as a fairly modest, healthy-ish living person, I'm looking at 11%. Throw in a few additional things like child care and smoking or going out often and this sky rockets.
https://www.news.com.au/finance/mone...bc66b721c17346
(scroll about halfway down the article for the calculator)
News.com.au have a calculator that lets you plug in a few variables to see what real inflation rate you're personally looking at - as a fairly modest, healthy-ish living person, I'm looking at 11%. Throw in a few additional things like child care and smoking or going out often and this sky rockets.
https://www.news.com.au/finance/mone...bc66b721c17346
(scroll about halfway down the article for the calculator)
Maybe the union/negotiators should take a look at that inflation calculator link.
Apparently they have a calculator/spreadsheet to calculate back pay, but can't seem to calculate days off compared to other major Australian airlines as well calculate real inflation.
Apparently they have a calculator/spreadsheet to calculate back pay, but can't seem to calculate days off compared to other major Australian airlines as well calculate real inflation.
There is NOTHING factually incorrect. I bet you can’t even articulate what “lifestyle” is to you? Other than of course coming to work less, and having to put up with its inconveniences, whilst getting paid, under the rationale of some on here, MORE than 21% in salary alone than you do now.
It’s not astrophysics, I can add:
July 2019 3%
July 2020 3%
July 2021 3%
July 2022 3%
July 2023 3%
July 2024 3%
July 2025 3%
7 x 3% = 21%, that's similar to the total we are at now isn't it? what a surprise. Further to this, the only reason we are getting a move back to 3% is because we are forced under the award to be paid this, this is not good will, this is not another but the absolute minimum.
Highline - increase in full rates (min 10% over life of agreement) + a rate to be paid IN addition to your 100% being paid whilst operating at 50% from sign-off at layover until sign-on on layover
Increases to DTA/ODTA rates (14% - 18%)
Increase to EFA rates
Increase to EFA rates
Proper Carers lines - as I understand it there’ll be part/full-time options (lifestyle)
Increase to Star Days annually - 9 to 13 (lifestyle)
Increase to annual leave slot ability and improvements to priority system (lifestyle)
Unscheduled Overnight + Misconnections defined processes + remuneration compensation (lifestyle)
Single week annual leave access for Flexi-Line pilots (lifestyle)….
You basically have no idea what you’re talking about do you LOC?
And it’s not rhetorical the statements about leaving. Some on here bang on endlessly about how much better it is in the US (money wise at least). It’s a simple fact, if it’s the money down to the cent alone, who’s stopping you? They pay it there obviously because they have to, they offer visas to foreigners because they have to; you’re on a fixed term contract on a temporary visa, if that floats your boat then give it a go.
We have list close to 50 pilots in the last few months, all be it by multiple causes, but a lot have left for better places.
I doubt FOI is management. Management or those with an interest from management certainly lurk here and I would like FOI to reconfirm his/her damaging suggestion here in front of you good people.
Just one mathematical point: 7 x 3% annual increases is not the same as a 21% increase.
e.g. $100,000 increased by 3% is $103,000. $103,000 increased by 3% isn’t $106,000. It’s $106,180. Do that another 5 times and you don’t get to $121,000.
However, the overarching point that pay increased by CPI does not maintain the ‘buying power’ of pay is unassailable. Even the ABS acknowledges that (or should I call the ABS “The Other Bureau”…).
e.g. $100,000 increased by 3% is $103,000. $103,000 increased by 3% isn’t $106,000. It’s $106,180. Do that another 5 times and you don’t get to $121,000.
However, the overarching point that pay increased by CPI does not maintain the ‘buying power’ of pay is unassailable. Even the ABS acknowledges that (or should I call the ABS “The Other Bureau”…).
What a total load of ****, if the new deal suits you then vote for it! If it doesn’t then don’t vote for it…… Majority wins……. Simple. If after the result you don’t like the outcome then either volunteer to join the negotiating team or leave.
Having been a Union rep it is the most thankless task, everyone is pulling in different directions and when you deliver a deal it is amazing the amount of abuse you are subjected too after giving up a massive amount of personal time to try and represent the pilots. I often handed critics a ‘nomination’ form to join as a representative and they couldn’t back away quick enough.
The one thing we always tried to foster as a rep was unity which was always the one thing we never achieved. I mean look at this thread, you are all reading the same proposed deal and can’t even agree the basic numbers let alone if it is good or not. Unity is what the company truely fears and what they have spent years chipping away at. In the end you have to present an offer as I can guarantee you there would have been pressure on the reps to present something or ‘people were going to leave the union’. What members don’t understand is ‘they’ are the union… not the people on the negotiating team, the deal your negotiators can obtain is directly proportional to how effective the members are at being ‘unionised’. Again from this thread we can see the problem is contained within the members, can’t even agree amoungst themselves.
Having been a Union rep it is the most thankless task, everyone is pulling in different directions and when you deliver a deal it is amazing the amount of abuse you are subjected too after giving up a massive amount of personal time to try and represent the pilots. I often handed critics a ‘nomination’ form to join as a representative and they couldn’t back away quick enough.
The one thing we always tried to foster as a rep was unity which was always the one thing we never achieved. I mean look at this thread, you are all reading the same proposed deal and can’t even agree the basic numbers let alone if it is good or not. Unity is what the company truely fears and what they have spent years chipping away at. In the end you have to present an offer as I can guarantee you there would have been pressure on the reps to present something or ‘people were going to leave the union’. What members don’t understand is ‘they’ are the union… not the people on the negotiating team, the deal your negotiators can obtain is directly proportional to how effective the members are at being ‘unionised’. Again from this thread we can see the problem is contained within the members, can’t even agree amoungst themselves.
What a total load of ****, if the new deal suits you then vote for it! If it doesn’t then don’t vote for it…… Majority wins……. Simple. If after the result you don’t like the outcome then either volunteer to join the negotiating team or leave.
Having been a Union rep it is the most thankless task, everyone is pulling in different directions and when you deliver a deal it is amazing the amount of abuse you are subjected too after giving up a massive amount of personal time to try and represent the pilots. I often handed critics a ‘nomination’ form to join as a representative and they couldn’t back away quick enough.
The one thing we always tried to foster as a rep was unity which was always the one thing we never achieved. I mean look at this thread, you are all reading the same proposed deal and can’t even agree the basic numbers let alone if it is good or not. Unity is what the company truely fears and what they have spent years chipping away at. In the end you have to present an offer as I can guarantee you there would have been pressure on the reps to present something or ‘people were going to leave the union’. What members don’t understand is ‘they’ are the union… not the people on the negotiating team, the deal your negotiators can obtain is directly proportional to how effective the members are at being ‘unionised’. Again from this thread we can see the problem is contained within the members, can’t even agree amoungst themselves.
Having been a Union rep it is the most thankless task, everyone is pulling in different directions and when you deliver a deal it is amazing the amount of abuse you are subjected too after giving up a massive amount of personal time to try and represent the pilots. I often handed critics a ‘nomination’ form to join as a representative and they couldn’t back away quick enough.
The one thing we always tried to foster as a rep was unity which was always the one thing we never achieved. I mean look at this thread, you are all reading the same proposed deal and can’t even agree the basic numbers let alone if it is good or not. Unity is what the company truely fears and what they have spent years chipping away at. In the end you have to present an offer as I can guarantee you there would have been pressure on the reps to present something or ‘people were going to leave the union’. What members don’t understand is ‘they’ are the union… not the people on the negotiating team, the deal your negotiators can obtain is directly proportional to how effective the members are at being ‘unionised’. Again from this thread we can see the problem is contained within the members, can’t even agree amoungst themselves.
Pilot unity is a myth. At best it can be briefly glimpsed at a pub.
The reality is that whilst JQ pilots fight on Pprune about voting up their EBA, QF pilots will be flying A321’s on significantly better terms and conditions, and the Qantas group are happy to pay for this……
Unity is what the company truely fears and what they have spent years chipping away at. In the end you have to present an offer as I can guarantee you there would have been pressure on the reps to present something or ‘people were going to leave the union’.
Ollie - no offence, but anyone who puts up their hand to represent pilots and expects anything OTHER than feedback is naive. You are effectively a politician, albeit unpaid.
Pilot unity is a myth. At best it can be briefly glimpsed at a pub.
The reality is that whilst JQ pilots fight on Pprune about voting up their EBA, QF pilots will be flying A321’s on significantly better terms and conditions, and the Qantas group are happy to pay for this……
Pilot unity is a myth. At best it can be briefly glimpsed at a pub.
The reality is that whilst JQ pilots fight on Pprune about voting up their EBA, QF pilots will be flying A321’s on significantly better terms and conditions, and the Qantas group are happy to pay for this……
‘Feedback’ YES, abuse NO. Honestly you have no idea the vile comments that are directed at the reps from some people. By Unity I mean a united front and message from ALL pilots and Unions with the in fighting restricted to between themselves. During my
last contract negotiation we had members writing emails to Management detailing discussions had at Union base meetings as the ‘members’ didn’t agree with the Union direction….. Music to Managers ears. Management 101 is to split the employee group… we shouldn’t help them do it. I truely believe it is a hangover from 1989, I was a rep overseas as well and participated in many PIA’s for the greater good, trying to get the Aussies to do the same thing is like hearding cats and the T&C’s will forever suffer as a result.
Everyone gazes overseas and envies the contract gains in the US etc, guess what, the Unions played hardball and won big eith the backing of the members. The same could be achieved here if ypu could convince ALL Qantas Group employees to support each other with maybe a recruitment ban until Qantas comes to the party…. Will it EVER HAPPEN ….. sadly NO.
That is why I say, it is everyone for themselves, if it suits you vote for it and din’t worry about everyone else.
last contract negotiation we had members writing emails to Management detailing discussions had at Union base meetings as the ‘members’ didn’t agree with the Union direction….. Music to Managers ears. Management 101 is to split the employee group… we shouldn’t help them do it. I truely believe it is a hangover from 1989, I was a rep overseas as well and participated in many PIA’s for the greater good, trying to get the Aussies to do the same thing is like hearding cats and the T&C’s will forever suffer as a result.
Everyone gazes overseas and envies the contract gains in the US etc, guess what, the Unions played hardball and won big eith the backing of the members. The same could be achieved here if ypu could convince ALL Qantas Group employees to support each other with maybe a recruitment ban until Qantas comes to the party…. Will it EVER HAPPEN ….. sadly NO.
That is why I say, it is everyone for themselves, if it suits you vote for it and din’t worry about everyone else.
well said, Qantas is scared of the current proposed labor IR reforms that might allow group bargaining but there is zero evidence that the various pilot groups would know what to do with it
Back in 2019, the inflation rate was only 1.6% yet the union was taking PIA in an attempt to break through the Qantas 3% wage policy. There was no wage freeze either.
Now in 2022, with the 12 month inflation rate sitting at 7.3%, the negotiatiors are making no attempt to break the 3% wage policy or keep up with inflation, and even worse, they are trying tell everyone what a good deal this is.
This is also after most pilots were stood down without pay for a lengthy period of time. (Some perhaps over 18 month)
Sorry, not good enough and something does not seem right here.
Now in 2022, with the 12 month inflation rate sitting at 7.3%, the negotiatiors are making no attempt to break the 3% wage policy or keep up with inflation, and even worse, they are trying tell everyone what a good deal this is.
This is also after most pilots were stood down without pay for a lengthy period of time. (Some perhaps over 18 month)
Sorry, not good enough and something does not seem right here.
Last edited by a_pilot; 4th Nov 2022 at 23:58.
The union seems to be going above and beyond in an attempt to 'sell' the deal. I thought that was the companies job. A good deal should sell itself? Doesn't sound like this one does... at all..
I almost spat out my corn flakes this morning as I read this quote in the Oz from QF Chairman Richard Goyder:
”We’re concerned that lowering the bar for compulsory arbitration and enforcing multi employer bargaining would lead to centralised wage setting” …..(with)”little regard for the fact that companies have different needs, that will have a massive impact on productivity, growth and….,the ability to pay more”
page 7 (The Nation, Australian Newspaper, November 5-6,2022)
”We’re concerned that lowering the bar for compulsory arbitration and enforcing multi employer bargaining would lead to centralised wage setting” …..(with)”little regard for the fact that companies have different needs, that will have a massive impact on productivity, growth and….,the ability to pay more”
page 7 (The Nation, Australian Newspaper, November 5-6,2022)
Everyone gazes overseas and envies the contract gains in the US etc, guess what, the Unions played hardball and won big eith the backing of the members. The same could be achieved here if ypu could convince ALL Qantas Group employees to support each other with maybe a recruitment ban until Qantas comes to the party…. Will it EVER HAPPEN ….. sadly NO.
Australian pilots, despite largely being members of the union, are inherently economic-conservatives and Liberal voters. The industrial naivety of wondering why the fair work act provides sweet FA to workers but continually voting for the Liberals is stunning. Compare this to ALPA-I in the US, their social media talks about solidarity across all workers, standing with cabin crew and baggage handlers, they talk about solidarity and unity. They run pickets at airport terminals! They openly talk about equality rather than being scared to discuss anything more than a 'network' for women. ALPA-I is a real union because their members understand that real unions get real results. A union is only as strong as their members and to be frank, Australian pilots are individualistic and anti-union. While we squabble and snitch to management we will never increase wages in this country.