Qantas Recruitment
The move to the 737 hasn’t worked out that well for a number of your colleagues, who thought it would be easy as it’s just ‘the light training twin’. I suppose when you’ve been sleeping across the pacific for 20 years the skills drop off a little bit 
but, you’re right, the system let’s you do what you say (unfortunately). In my view it’s one of the biggest rorts going around, and despite what you say it will negatively affect everyone junior to you, especially those who’ve missed so much in the lost decade, but it’s your right and it can’t be taken away. FWIW an over 65 on the 737 doesn’t generally bother me, however an over 65 who chooses to keep flying on the 737 and then moans about how it’s not fair and they’ve been screwed, after having their career handed to them on a platter.....well they can F right off.
but, you’re right, the system let’s you do what you say (unfortunately). In my view it’s one of the biggest rorts going around, and despite what you say it will negatively affect everyone junior to you, especially those who’ve missed so much in the lost decade, but it’s your right and it can’t be taken away. FWIW an over 65 on the 737 doesn’t generally bother me, however an over 65 who chooses to keep flying on the 737 and then moans about how it’s not fair and they’ve been screwed, after having their career handed to them on a platter.....well they can F right off.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Unfortunately not the Orient
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 88 Likes
on
32 Posts
So now nobody can retire when they want to? What age are you going to retire, your plan or when the company decides they don’t want your aircraft?
Remember, they are going to get rid of the Jumbo, no option to stay on it for a planned year or two longer so if timing means doing a course and then retiring then that is what some will do.
The only effect on junior pilots is that of waiting for a slot based on seniority, ops normal.
On the other hand if VR caused anyone to leave early then junior pilots would benefit!
No malice intended, but what you say is just a bit confusing.
You state that you want to retire when you want to. Fair enough, and I’d doubt that anybody is suggesting you shouldn’t have that choice. But previously you stated that you would go to the A380, then retire 6 months later just to “F#$k em”. I don’t know if that is when you turn 65 or not, you didn’t state that.
For reference, a LH pilot staying beyond 65 and moving to the 737 makes no difference to anybody who has command seniority, as you vacate a Widebody seat, that makes that available to them.
I would love them to offer you a VR as it’s gets you out of the system and helps everyone, but they won’t.
How many are there that can displace? And how close to retirement are you? Or the most senior A380 blokes? I feel they will train you to the A380, but they won’t displace. There will be enough forced retirements, or 737 bids from the A380 to just wear the over crewed situation until an equilibrium is reached.
Generally speaking you are correct. In QF there are some complexities as the displacing pilots must be "NAMED" in the Reduction in Numbers process, which is just as it sounds, their name must appear on the Flight Standing Order.
In this case, the 744/Capt will displace an A380/Capt. That A380/Capt will most likely bid for 787 (as the next 787 bid will most likely include a Sydney Base) which is a training course that must be done irrespective of the 744 RIN. So there you go, 2 courses and the RIN (in this one case) is finished. The domino effect you speak of in this case, doesn't happen.
The same can be said for the A330 as training is going at pace on that aircraft also, however there would be an extra course in that scenario, but thats only 3.
With a redundancy, that 787 course will be filled by an A330/Capt, which will be filled by a 737/Capt which will be filled by an A330/FO which will be filled by a 737/FO which will be....................... and so on. In my opinion, this RIN will save them money. The way I see it, they won't offer redundancy.
In this case, the 744/Capt will displace an A380/Capt. That A380/Capt will most likely bid for 787 (as the next 787 bid will most likely include a Sydney Base) which is a training course that must be done irrespective of the 744 RIN. So there you go, 2 courses and the RIN (in this one case) is finished. The domino effect you speak of in this case, doesn't happen.
The same can be said for the A330 as training is going at pace on that aircraft also, however there would be an extra course in that scenario, but thats only 3.
With a redundancy, that 787 course will be filled by an A330/Capt, which will be filled by a 737/Capt which will be filled by an A330/FO which will be filled by a 737/FO which will be....................... and so on. In my opinion, this RIN will save them money. The way I see it, they won't offer redundancy.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: AUS
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So now nobody can retire when they want to? What age are you going to retire, your plan or when the company decides they don’t want your aircraft?
Remember, they are going to get rid of the Jumbo, no option to stay on it for a planned year or two longer so if timing means doing a course and then retiring then that is what some will do.
The only effect on junior pilots is that of waiting for a slot based on seniority, ops normal.
On the other hand if VR caused anyone to leave early then junior pilots would benefit!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
where did I say no one can choose when they retire? I was simply noting that anyone who starts 737 training around age 65 with no intention of finishing it is marking life harder on their colleagues, because it than takes many months to train their replacement and in the meantime everyone else has to fly harder.
I have been there, done that, not needing to go back and not approaching 65 (or 60 for that matter!)
Younger pilots with some time left to go will displace more junior pilots on the 380 if a RIN happens and they are named,
depending on how many do this it could affect about half the 380 guys, remembering that some are quite junior after the classic, 747 and 767 RINs.
If VR is offered some will retire early, if not offered they will go where their seniority allows, displacing other pilots (not ideal!) and causing a ****storm of training. They will then retire at a time of their choosing, which may be years, or months!
In any case the training department cannot keep up and you will be working harder, (currently some are on enforced time off due hitting 900hrs), better pray they offer VR.!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thomas
No malice intended, but what you say is just a bit confusing.
You state that you want to retire when you want to. Fair enough, and I’d doubt that anybody is suggesting you shouldn’t have that choice. But previously you stated that you would go to the A380, then retire 6 months later just to “F#$k em”. I don’t know if that is when you turn 65 or not, you didn’t state that.
For reference, a LH pilot staying beyond 65 and moving to the 737 makes no difference to anybody who has command seniority, as you vacate a Widebody seat, that makes that available to them.
I would love them to offer you a VR as it’s gets you out of the system and helps everyone, but they won’t.
How many are there that can displace? And how close to retirement are you? Or the most senior A380 blokes? I feel they will train you to the A380, but they won’t displace. There will be enough forced retirements, or 737 bids from the A380 to just wear the over crewed situation until an equilibrium is reached.
How close to retirement? Different question as one of Qantas’ planning errors is thinking everyone is going to 65 which is certainly not the case for me. To my view anyone going past 65 on the 737 is stealing a command off some younger pilot, just my opinion. Good luck with training the 747 RINies on the 380 without displacements, the divisor would plummet!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: australia
Age: 59
Posts: 425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has QF ever offered vr to pilots?
would QF offer vr in the current shortage?
how would this effect/affect 457 situation?
would QF give a rats arse if a rinned skipper quits during or shortly after retraining?
what difference would a $200,000 vr make? Why not fly another 18 months?
qf management make their decisions based on making their kpi's and therefore the subsequent bonus.
Retire when you've had a gutfull and enough $$ to fund your final years or marry some rich tart (with poor eyesight)
cheers all and happy flying or retirement
would QF offer vr in the current shortage?
how would this effect/affect 457 situation?
would QF give a rats arse if a rinned skipper quits during or shortly after retraining?
what difference would a $200,000 vr make? Why not fly another 18 months?
qf management make their decisions based on making their kpi's and therefore the subsequent bonus.
Retire when you've had a gutfull and enough $$ to fund your final years or marry some rich tart (with poor eyesight)
cheers all and happy flying or retirement
Last edited by indamiddle; 2nd Jun 2018 at 01:30.
Nunc est bibendum
Yes. In 2014 with the retirement of the 767 there were VRs offered to both 767 pilots as well as 744 Captains (and maybe F/Os too? Can't remember precisely).
Probably not. I don't discount the possibility of targeted VR. EG they may look at a 62-63 year old 744 driver, know they'll only get 18 months out of them once they're checked to line on the 787 or A380 and decide to offer that pilot a VR to go rather than double train. It'd need some precise numbers on the cost of the training course, the cost to pay the pilot whilst they're on said training course, etc.
The 457s being requested are not for mainline. They're for Dash 8 TRIs and TREs. I've no expertise in the area but in my uninformed option I wouldn't expect it'd have any significant impact.
Not saying it will happen or even if it's likely. I just reckon it's an unexplored option.
Personally with the current training load I don’t think they will have a choice. It will be 747 Capt and FOs only. Under a RIN there is no return of service on a higher type, so Captains close to 65 can RIN to the 380 and there is nothing they can do about it except VR them, start their training and waste the resources, pay them gardening leave. As usual a decision was made to get rid of the 747 at short notice after planning was working on probably another 5 years. It is and will be chaos for the foreseeable future IMO.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: australia
Age: 59
Posts: 425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the replies from Keg and Dragonman.
whatever anyone says how good it is retired, don't believe them.
It is a lot better than you can imagine.
just wish for a bit more wind on the bay today. Looks like a slow race in the SAGS today (:
whatever anyone says how good it is retired, don't believe them.
It is a lot better than you can imagine.
just wish for a bit more wind on the bay today. Looks like a slow race in the SAGS today (:
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes. In 2014 with the retirement of the 767 there were VRs offered to both 767 pilots as well as 744 Captains (and maybe F/Os too? Can't remember precisely).
Probably not. I don't discount the possibility of targeted VR. EG they may look at a 62-63 year old 744 driver, know they'll only get 18 months out of them once they're checked to line on the 787 or A380 and decide to offer that pilot a VR to go rather than double train. It'd need some precise numbers on the cost of the training course, the cost to pay the pilot whilst they're on said training course, etc.
The 457s being requested are not for mainline. They're for Dash 8 TRIs and TREs. I've no expertise in the area but in my uninformed option I wouldn't expect it'd have any significant impact.
Yes... especially during training. It's a massive pain in terms of paired training for sims and so on. The vacancy then needs to be filled and that will also be an unpaired course.
Tax rates for VR are much better. A pilot who is 62 and wasn't fussed if they went to 65 or not may decide that with their accrued LSL, AL (if they have any left during the decreased flying on the fleet), may decide to take the extra year's pay and not put themselves through the type course change and of course the additional fun of increased LH flying on the 787.
Not saying it will happen or even if it's likely. I just reckon it's an unexplored option.
Probably not. I don't discount the possibility of targeted VR. EG they may look at a 62-63 year old 744 driver, know they'll only get 18 months out of them once they're checked to line on the 787 or A380 and decide to offer that pilot a VR to go rather than double train. It'd need some precise numbers on the cost of the training course, the cost to pay the pilot whilst they're on said training course, etc.
The 457s being requested are not for mainline. They're for Dash 8 TRIs and TREs. I've no expertise in the area but in my uninformed option I wouldn't expect it'd have any significant impact.
Yes... especially during training. It's a massive pain in terms of paired training for sims and so on. The vacancy then needs to be filled and that will also be an unpaired course.
Tax rates for VR are much better. A pilot who is 62 and wasn't fussed if they went to 65 or not may decide that with their accrued LSL, AL (if they have any left during the decreased flying on the fleet), may decide to take the extra year's pay and not put themselves through the type course change and of course the additional fun of increased LH flying on the 787.
Not saying it will happen or even if it's likely. I just reckon it's an unexplored option.
Last time a 64.9 year old got 12 Months pay to leave!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How long does a Pilot Ground school go for? They have all done 1000+ hours by the time they apply, so how long is it until they start doing their demo flights? Cabin crew do between 4-7 weeks of ground school learning how to do everything.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: australia
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you either don’t understand or appreciate that pilots being pilots are out there trying to milk the system for their own advantage. That being the case, they will do whatever they have to do to achieve this end. Look at the few that bid for B737 cmd slots when they were approching 65 as a B747 captain , never intending to take the vacancy up, in the days before they started the course went sick, took their sick leave at B747 rates until after it was exhausted, left the company or then started their course.
the managers may be after their kpis, but their incompetence is far exceeded by the cynical exploitation of the system by the pilots, and it is getting worse as gen Y, gen X ,millenials get their turn. Read the other threads on Prune if you don’t believe me.
the
The Hourly rate is more on the 787 than the 747.
Roughly 87% of 747 pilots voted for the EA that was to be their replacement type. Junior A380 pilots likewise.
Surely you’d get killed in the rush to the 787.
Roughly 87% of 747 pilots voted for the EA that was to be their replacement type. Junior A380 pilots likewise.
Surely you’d get killed in the rush to the 787.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hourly rate higher for less credited hours due no night credits.
Lack of additional pay credits for long flights mean 787 is quite a total pay drop for the sectors the two aircraft currently do.
Times have changed since the vote.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
5 weeks or so ground school then 5 weeks or so for sims. At least that is what a recent conversion took, initial may be a bit longer.
Last edited by Tankengine; 3rd Jun 2018 at 00:24.
[QUOTE=FightDeck;10163357]
The Hourly rate is more on the 787 than the 747.
Roughly 87% of 747 pilots voted for the EA that was to be their replacement type. Junior A380 pilots likewise.
Surely you’d get killed in the rush to the 787.
U start on the 787 on year 1 money not year 12 as in the 747. The difference between year 1 and 4 (top scale) is approx $50,000 per annum for a Capt. I had an FO the other day tell me his take home pay on the 747 is approx $2,000 a fortnight more than his friend on the 787. The reason the EA got up was backpay. The majority of older pilots thought this will never effect me I just want the back pay, and now the chickens are coming home to roost where they will remain for ever.
Roughly 87% of 747 pilots voted for the EA that was to be their replacement type. Junior A380 pilots likewise.
Surely you’d get killed in the rush to the 787.
U start on the 787 on year 1 money not year 12 as in the 747. The difference between year 1 and 4 (top scale) is approx $50,000 per annum for a Capt. I had an FO the other day tell me his take home pay on the 747 is approx $2,000 a fortnight more than his friend on the 787. The reason the EA got up was backpay. The majority of older pilots thought this will never effect me I just want the back pay, and now the chickens are coming home to roost where they will remain for ever.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE=dragon man;10163555]
It wasn’t just the older guys, a lot of youngsters had new plastic aircraft and promotions in their eyes.
The Hourly rate is more on the 787 than the 747.
Roughly 87% of 747 pilots voted for the EA that was to be their replacement type. Junior A380 pilots likewise.
Surely you’d get killed in the rush to the 787.
U start on the 787 on year 1 money not year 12 as in the 747. The difference between year 1 and 4 (top scale) is approx $50,000 per annum for a Capt. I had an FO the other day tell me his take home pay on the 747 is approx $2,000 a fortnight more than his friend on the 787. The reason the EA got up was backpay. The majority of older pilots thought this will never effect me I just want the back pay, and now the chickens are coming home to roost where they will remain for ever.
Roughly 87% of 747 pilots voted for the EA that was to be their replacement type. Junior A380 pilots likewise.
Surely you’d get killed in the rush to the 787.
U start on the 787 on year 1 money not year 12 as in the 747. The difference between year 1 and 4 (top scale) is approx $50,000 per annum for a Capt. I had an FO the other day tell me his take home pay on the 747 is approx $2,000 a fortnight more than his friend on the 787. The reason the EA got up was backpay. The majority of older pilots thought this will never effect me I just want the back pay, and now the chickens are coming home to roost where they will remain for ever.