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Old 17th Aug 2023, 19:56
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15 years at another foreign major in between.
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Old 18th Aug 2023, 03:41
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Originally Posted by VH-RME
I would suggest it is a fallacy to directly compare AUD vs USD salaries outright. They are two separate job markets (though somewhat linked via the E-3). Not at all suggesting things in Aus can't and shouldn't be improved, but salaries in the US are markedly higher in a lot of fields outside aviation, such as finance and tech. I wouldn't expect Australia to be able to match these dollar for dollar in the near future

To answer the above question, I'm a current E-3 pilot I would pick Qantas over any of the current E-3 carriers. Would I take Qantas over a US legacy? Gonna be a tough choice

I also personally strongly prefer living Australia over the US, if this is not the case for you then your answer will probably be different
I donít buy the logic that because airlines in the US are bigger companies than Qantas they can afford to pay their crew more. Pilots arenít involved in sales or any other direct revenue stream (unlike tech and finance) so it comes down to how productively someone else can utilise our services. Qantas does a pretty good job of extracting near max hours out of its crew and in selling max seats (at extremely high prices of late) per flight. US carriers arenít getting any better value out of their crew, they are just getting crunched by a labour shortage- which seems to be cropping up here too. As long as there isnít too much political interference market forces should have a similar outcome here. Of course, thwarting the market is AJís main job but there are natural limits.
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Old 18th Aug 2023, 04:43
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Originally Posted by VH-RME
I would suggest it is a fallacy to directly compare AUD vs USD salaries outright. They are two separate job markets (though somewhat linked via the E-3). Not at all suggesting things in Aus can't and shouldn't be improved, but salaries in the US are markedly higher in a lot of fields outside aviation, such as finance and tech. I wouldn't expect Australia to be able to match these dollar for dollar in the near future

To answer the above question, I'm a current E-3 pilot I would pick Qantas over any of the current E-3 carriers. Would I take Qantas over a US legacy? Gonna be a tough choice

I also personally strongly prefer living Australia over the US, if this is not the case for you then your answer will probably be different
Isnít it interesting that these highly qualified financial gurus advising the airline industry seem to adore the Supply and Demand model when it suits, but seem to be somewhat obtuse when the pilots are the ones in demand. Cough up or park airframes, simple equation if you ask me.
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Old 18th Aug 2023, 06:39
  #3844 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VH-RME
I would suggest it is a fallacy to directly compare AUD vs USD salaries outright. They are two separate job markets (though somewhat linked via the E-3). Not at all suggesting things in Aus can't and shouldn't be improved, but salaries in the US are markedly higher in a lot of fields outside aviation, such as finance and tech. I wouldn't expect Australia to be able to match these dollar for dollar in the near future

To answer the above question, I'm a current E-3 pilot I would pick Qantas over any of the current E-3 carriers. Would I take Qantas over a US legacy? Gonna be a tough choice

I also personally strongly prefer living Australia over the US, if this is not the case for you then your answer will probably be different
The US is not everyoneís cup of tea, so I understand your strong preference to live in Australia.

The disparity between top US & Australian airlines has little to do with affordability - look at what Alan Joyce earns compared to his equivalents at overseas airlines many times the size of Qantas! Does QF actually fly anywhere these days?

Itís disappointing to watch Australian pilots undercut each other to secure future flying. The lack of scope protection is the primary reason airline salaries in Australia are what they are. Airline management will continue to play pilot groups off against each other to maintain downwards pressure on conditions.

James Strong started it, Dixon perfected it, Joyce capitalized on it. Look at the B (or is it C?) scale for 787 S/Oís, and soon 350 S/Oís. No doubt pending A220 deliveries to subsidiaries will be used by management to whipsaw the upcoming SH EBA talks.

I left as Jetstar Intl. was starting up, and it became pretty damn clear how future flying would be allocated. I recall AIPA urging Longhaul pilots to vote in EBA 3 (?) to ďget a seat at the Jetstar International tableĒ. By then, weíd already lost most of our 767 Tasman flying to Jetconnect.

Having direct experience of both mainline Qantas and US Majors, there is no contest. Obviously you have to be a US Permanent Resident to play. However, plenty of E3 folk have attained green cards and found forever homes here at the majors.
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Old 19th Aug 2023, 12:42
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These "Stories" are always the same

Guys crowing how they played the game & won

Each to their own & free to work/ live wherever wish

But I would have thought VKs career plan would have been an example of an absolute disaster - couldn't have timed it any worse

Back in 2006 QF ML were on top of the world , no competition in Aussie - can't call Virgin Low cost competition

Short time SO, era

& the reason for leaving , JQ going international ?? Very curious , think they got maybe one A330 in that year , maybe 5/6 (at most) by 2008

& that's why someone would leave QF mainline ? Well its a free country - but its interesting logic

& also flawed logic as what you anticipated simply did not occur , JQ 12 WBs versus QF 50

If you were a 76 FO at that time , likely circa 2000 joiner (+/-) , say joined at 30ish (+/-)

So now in 50s as a NB FO in USA

Consider if you had stayed at QF , you could have (if you wanted easy life) transferred to A380 SO , nudging $300K writing you own rosters

Or gone on 747/330 FO (seniority dependant obviously) , or 73 FO or 73 LHS (Perth)

If you had waited until 2010 + taken LWOP & gone on to ME3 etc etc , perhaps even DEC or accelerated to LHS . Emirates had formal program with QF back then
for a number of years . & if the ME was your cup of tea just kept extending lwop (as many did). & LWOP in 2010s with 3000 hours more time on 767 would have resulted
in much quicker journey to LHS overseas

Or just stayed with QF in whatever position

At the very least now you would have the best trips as a QF WB FO , getting paid way more & working way less than you are now

15 years "Major International Airline" well if it was CX you would have been in RHS - not a bad gig but fairly same same (then they started
amending contract). If SQ local contract & all expats got flung 2016

If ME3 , well likely at least 3 to 5 years until LHS , then the guys over there started changing everything. Bunk time not counted as flight time
& 24 hour stop after 14 hour flight (QF/BA / Americans anyone decent ) all getting at least 48 hours rest. The rosters must have been brutal and incredibly
fatiguing - just so far off "best practice" its not funny

Joining United at best mid wave of the hiring cycle , say mid 50s on a NB . How does a mid 50s chap manage to get a greencard - US citizenship whatever ?
Sure you might be able to upgrade quickly to lhs (NB only) but your rosters will be very poor for a number of years - permanent reserve. & If you want to go to WB
sure can do , but you will be on permanent reserve for years (reserve is not "shared" like QF LH) . Ever seen a youtube about United LH guys sitting in hotels (expensive) in NYC
waiting for a callout - it looks absolutely miserable . & remember if there is recession the US majors do not hesitate to furlough, this has happened twice this century & people are
often flung for years

So sure I agree with you entirely that you cannot compare flying with a major in Australia V USA. Years of permanent reserve & the threat of furlough for at least 5 years
& the company pissing your pension up against the wall Vs no compulsory redundancies for 50 years & good rosters from day 1. As you say it ain't a competition

I suspect you were the only 767 FO who resigned in 2005/2010 period & I don't think any of your fellow QF joiners would swap your career path

It was EBA 6/7 back then btw

QF could fill all ML vacancies with Americans from US Majors if they wanted & they know that

Last edited by Makiko; 19th Aug 2023 at 13:16.
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Old 19th Aug 2023, 13:02
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Well that was a bit of a ramble. Can you summarise that for us?
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Old 19th Aug 2023, 13:29
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If the "story" is true I would think this guy really timed things very poorly (& granted none of us are Nostrodamus)

QF LH is a good deal , if Australians feel it is beneath them & don't want it plenty of others will

You could fill the annual ML vacancies with Kiwis if you wanted or ADF/RNZAF pilots out of ROSO or Americans (E3 equivalent) or Brits (haven't we
just done a deal on extended work visa) or Canadians
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Old 19th Aug 2023, 13:35
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What are you talking about?
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Old 19th Aug 2023, 13:45
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The career path of Verbal Kint (is that some kind of play on words )

His previous posts seemed to indicate he worked for CX , each to their own perhaps the guy just wanted to live in HK

Easy to put s*** on QF ML when in reality it would seem that he would have been way way better off staying there, the brass for
based DE CX FOs was pretty ordinary back then. Assuming that was entry point - then it would have been the joyous experience of going back to SO

Then contract change after contract change in the 2010s , finally with the COS18
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Old 19th Aug 2023, 14:42
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Originally Posted by Makiko
The career path of Verbal Kint (is that some kind of play on words )

His previous posts seemed to indicate he worked for CX , each to their own perhaps the guy just wanted to live in HK

Easy to put s*** on QF ML when in reality it would seem that he would have been way way better off staying there, the brass for
based DE CX FOs was pretty ordinary back then. Assuming that was entry point - then it would have been the joyous experience of going back to SO

Then contract change after contract change in the 2010s , finally with the COS18
Well since youíre speculating:-

I joined as a COS99 DEFO. My 1st Yr pay was notably better than 7th Yr pay as a 767 FO in my final year at QF. Still based in Oz. Different story for later DEFOs on COS08. Iíve been well ahead financially at every turn than had I remained in QF ML, except for the few months on COS18 before I left HK. And I did my command on the 330/350 about the same time I could have had first available command in QF (737 in PER ÖÖ ).

At the time I left, QF had gifted EBA-D to JQ Intl. LWOP wasnít yet an option, so the ME3 holiday wasnít a thing.

You need to update your knowledge of conditions at the US Majors. Pensions havenít been a thing here since the early 2000íís except for FedEx/UPS. Itís a 401(k) now. 2nd Yr and beyond the majors all pay waaayy more than ML. Iím in my 40ís (not 50ís) and can hold any widebody FO slot (except IAH) or NB CA in any base. All much bigger $$ than widebody FO at QF. So you reckon I should have stayed? And thatís not even considering the professional aspect of working outside the sheltered world of Oz!

Last edited by Verbal Kint; 19th Aug 2023 at 15:04.
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Old 19th Aug 2023, 16:03
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As I said first sentence its always the same old story

Look at how well I played it & won at all corners & at all times

I wasn't aware of any DE FO HK based in 06 , there were some DEFO based in Australia - but nothing special regarding money, sure above Virgin but
way below QF mainline . HK was via SO route at that point in time

Skeptical that you claim got to LHS , timelines just aren't long enough

If you had got to 330/350 LHS why leave ? Why be asking about $100K Careflight jobs at that point in time ? (circa 2018)

If you joined QF in 1999 you would have got at 737 LHS in Perth around 2010/12. You just said that you achieved a 330/350 LHS same time you would have got
a LHS 737 at QF. This doesn't make any sense

1. The 350 wasn't even flying at that point in time (was it ?)

2. CX joiners 05/10 typically 14 years to a LHS

So joining CX in 06 that would have meant best chance LHS in 2020 (or at absolute best 2019)

These "stories" are always the same , I played it smarter than everyone else & I earned more money& I earned more money & I earned more money than anyone else

You were not earning the same money as an Aussie based CX DEFO as a 7th year QF 767 FO - didn't happen

& if you are a United NB FO you are now earning significantly less than you would have if you had stayed at QF

But its a free world & people are entitled to change employers as they see fit

You sure must have been a very youngish king air pilot (24/25) to have accomplished all since 1999 & now still be in your 40s. Almost like a prodigy of some note

The stories are always the same

Also you cannot hole NB LHS in any base - stop telling stories

You may be able to hold LHS at the Junior 2 or 3 bases (Detroit is just lovely) & on permanent reserve there . That is why the NB FOs at US majors
don't bid for LHS - its a nightmare , as similar to perpetual reserve for 5/7 years as a WB FO, hunkering down in NYC or ORD paying your own way at a hotel

Sure there is good brass available at US majors but you are playing furlough (redundancy ) roulette for the first 5 to 8 years of your career & if you get allocated WB FO
from school house , you are on permanent reserve for years (possibly can transfer to NB after freeze). So rewards there , but its a much tougher game & in any case is not available to Australian citizens. The number flying for US majors wouldn't reach double figures

Last edited by Makiko; 19th Aug 2023 at 16:56.
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Old 19th Aug 2023, 17:24
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Makiko,

Wrong again:

1. First CX DEFOís joined Jan 07, on COS99. My 1st group certificate from CX showed 173K. My last from QF showed 156K. By my math, thatí s less.

2. Interest in Careflight was due a dying parent back home. Irrelevant to present discussion. Nice try

3. Joined QF at 25. Youngish, but not unusual. The guy immediately above me took first available command on the 737 in 2017 (PER). Same time I upgraded at CX Ö.

4. CX got their first 350 in June 2016. Look it up. Upgrade time came down to 10.5 +/- due Airbus deliveries/777 SFOís not wanting to fly it.

5. You clearly have no idea about upgrade times here. As of Aug 15th we have 123 unfilled NB CA slots. I can hold any of them. I think you have your airlines mixed up 🧐.

6. No idea about hunkering down at crash pads as I dont have to do it!

6. NB CA here pays upwards of 300K USD/Yr. Enlighten me what fleet/seat pays that at QF 23 years in? And Iím talking 3 Yr in here. No comparison.


Last edited by Verbal Kint; 19th Aug 2023 at 18:02.
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Old 19th Aug 2023, 18:03
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Originally Posted by Verbal Kint
Unfortunately T&Cís in Australia have gone nowhere. The reasons why have been discussed elsewhere (lack of a strong over-arching union, small industry & therefore lack of options etc Ö ).

But for a simple comparison, as a 2nd year narrowbody FO here Iíll earn over 300K AUD + 17% direct retirement contribution. Not including per diems of course 😄.
Thats really great and all but UA/DL/AA are also very, very quick to pull the furlough trigger and take major contract concessions when the economy hits a speed bump. You could very easily end up unemployed for years as has happened many times in the past to a lot of pilots at the big 3 in the US. Apart from the COVID fiasco, QF I would argue is a more stable career prospect than United or the others in an unstable economic world.

As with most things in life though, your mileage may vary!
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Old 19th Aug 2023, 18:35
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Originally Posted by LostWanderer
Thats really great and all but UA/DL/AA are also very, very quick to pull the furlough trigger and take major contract concessions when the economy hits a speed bump. You could very easily end up unemployed for years as has happened many times in the past to a lot of pilots at the big 3 in the US. Apart from the COVID fiasco, QF I would argue is a more stable career prospect than United or the others in an unstable economic world.

As with most things in life though, your mileage may vary!
How do you figure when the most senior QF pilots were harmed the worst out of the entire group of late? Pretty quick to dismiss that as a simple one off.
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Old 20th Aug 2023, 00:10
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I think Qantas has changed the conversation with what happened during Covid, now they have used the provision to stand pilots down on no pay I would not be surprised to see it used again.
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Old 20th Aug 2023, 00:25
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
I think Qantas has changed the conversation with what happened during Covid, now they have used the provision to stand pilots down on no pay I would not be surprised to see it used again.
It would only be used in such a drastic circumstance as a pandemic related border closure, war, mass industrial action etc. Not solely because of an economic slowdown or business restructuring. The stand down provisions for A380 pilots were lifted when international borders began to be re-opened even though not all 380 pilots were usefully employed at that point.

I donít think QF have made a pilot compulsory redundant since the early 70s, canít say the same of the US carriers.

The positives and negatives of US carriers vs QF have been well spoken about on this thread - at the end of the day most Australians would want to reside in their home country and be closer to family and friends, so overall the number of Australians who choose a career in the US would be a minority.
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Old 20th Aug 2023, 01:38
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You have more faith in Qantas Management than I do.
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Old 20th Aug 2023, 02:42
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At least in the US when furloughs happen, everyone knows what they signed up for. Itís bottom up.

Covid proves QF doesnít give a s*it at all about those who have the most time in with the company. To be fair corporate culture in the US doesnít either, but at least the contracts force management to follow the seniority list.
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Old 20th Aug 2023, 07:56
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Havick the point is that furlough (compulsory redundancy with right of recall) in QF just haven't occurred for 50 years

Whereas in the USA for the first 15 years of this century , the US majors had 1000s on the street

If same had occurred in Australia , you get a very significant redundancy payment - up to two years wages & first right of recall

A lot of the Tiger/Virgin(330/777/Vanz) guys got a full years salary when made redundant when Covid hit , now back on property with seniority intact

With stand downs at Qantas all treated equally. Though there was a voluntary redundancy (aimed at older pilots) extra 9 months pay that was available

Couple of hundred took it & many likely regret it as international bounced back way quicker than most anticipated - the point is that it was voluntary

Australian pilots like to talk about US contracts when things are going well there, but they remain very quiet when 20 or 30% + of a pilot body is furloughed (with no
Australian redundancy type payment). Or when contracts are cut significantly when US major enters chapter 11

Why oh why do Australian pilots like to obsess on T & Cs at US Majors when these jobs are not available to Australian citizens, despite what various fantasists might claim
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Old 20th Aug 2023, 08:53
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Originally Posted by Makiko

Why oh why do Australian pilots like to obsess on T & Cs at US Majors when these jobs are not available to Australian citizens, despite what various fantasists might claim
Well technically they are available should an Aussie citizen go down the green card / FAA route. A former colleague of made the financial investment via a lawyer and now has the green card. Took him about 12 months and < 20K USD. He previously had the FAA but no former employment or family ties in the US. He made the investment as others who had recently done the same were successfully recruited by US majors. Well played Iíd say, taking advantage of the window of opportunity thatís currently open in the US, given time to command at a major is < 2 yearsÖ(have another mate who joined Delta 18 months ago as an A220 FO and now is on a 757/767 command course.) Couldnít the hundreds of Aussies who went to Atlas potentially do the same?
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