Qantas Engineering redundances - Advice required!!!

[eshlon]

QF94 - you reckon you'd still be gentlemanly about things after years of dealing with a bunch of toffee's with well lined pockets at our expense, who seek to destroy our unionised workforce?

Further, have you conversed with a QF manager? I suppose you like conversing with brick walls; receiving responses that are so pathetic, it makes you cringe that they are using oxygen that can be better used by someone else. (I exclude 4 syd managers from this statement - GJ, CT, TD and GH). I can only suppose its worse at the upper levels of management.

To all - the current exec management need to get the arse, its a given. But they won't get the arse because they are slowly achieving at least one, of their many possible objectives set by Leigh Clifford, which is in my opinion - de-unionise the workforce. God knows what objective they are working towards by giving our work away to the Emirates Group (Emirates Airlines etc). I can only guess that our maintenance will soon be done off shore by them, or by some other bullsh*t JetConnect type outfit belonging to either us or them.

[QF94]

You fall into the trap Qantas lays for you by making that argument. Pilots have big egos, they need that to do their job. Qantas management has very successfully stroked those egos by appealing to "professionalism" , "being reasonable/fair/gentlemanly and a host of other nice sounding adjectives in negotiations.

The reality is that the guys in nice suits with the private school accents are just as feral as a Mount Druitt bogan when it comes to money. They will gut you and your family in a heartbeat if it suits them and think nothing of it. They have total contempt for all of you. It pays to remember that.

The CFMEU is the best model to follow.

Sunfish. Firstly, I'm not taken in by the fancy suits and Cheshire Cat smiles of these managers that hold a razor sharp knife behind their backs. Also, I don't know too many that have "private school accents". These guys are there to do a job. I in no way support what they do, but we as employees are justifying what they want to do, whether we do O/T or not, whether we slow down work or not. They have a set number of people they want to get rid of, and they will get rid of them. Either in one hit, or drag it out over months, just in time for the next lot of redundancies. The management have been on this path for some time now, and one redundancy or dispute just rolls into the next. There is no let-up.

I have said all along, no one is safe from the demolition that's about to take place (with the exception of the DMM's and Supervisors as per FedSec's previous posts).

I'm not going to get into an argument about the demographics of Sydney, but to use Mt Druitt as an example of bogans? Your elitism knows no bounds. Sutherland Shire has quite a few bogans themselves. Why? Many of them are in the employ of QANTAS, and as managers.

QF94 - you reckon you'd still be gentlemanly about things after years of dealing with a bunch of toffee's with well lined pockets at our expense, who seek to destroy our unionised workforce?

Further, have you conversed with a QF manager? I suppose you like conversing with brick walls; receiving responses that are so pathetic, it makes you cringe that they are using oxygen that can be better used by someone else.

eshlon, I have been conversing with QF management over the years. Not much response from the different regimes, and whatever response, it's all pretty much the same. None of them give a toss, and don't want the boat rocked on their watch, because within 18 months or two years of their tenure as a manager, they move on to the next section. While there is a constant change of managers, everything else stays the same. They talk the talk and that's all they do. I just won't drop down to their level. It achieves nothing and stresses you out at the same time.

Giving the opposition any ammunition to use against you at a later date does nothing for your cause. A couple of examples are "We'll slow bake you". Tony Sheldon, 2010 and "If I were a paying passenger, I wouldn't be flying QANTAS any time between now and Christmas" FedSec, 2010. The media went to town on that, and so did the company. The villain suddenly became the victim and "justified" shutting down the airline.

Agreed about the executive management. They all need to go from the board down. But we all know that's not going to happen in a hurry.

The plan for a deunionised workforce goes back to Dixon. He and Singleton aren't exactly involved in unionised workforces. You think it would be any different if he came back? Some on here seem to think so, or would back him by "half a head".

[eshlon]

Points taken qf94.

[AEROMEDIC]

QF94,

It seems that you are only repeating what has been known for years about Qantas management and none of this is new.

What other posts have been saying is that a strategy is required to DO something.
Fedsec has one. many other posts agree or disgaree, but put something forward anyway.

I think that all that read your posts know where you stand and your view on OT so, instead of talking about this dilemma, what is it that YOU are prepared to DO about it ?

[QF94]

It seems that you are only repeating what has been known for years about Qantas management and none of this is new.

aeromedic,

You and I and those that have been through past "restructures" and redundancies will know this, but there will be those that haven't or choose to believe that things will change, and the message needs to be reinforced.

What other posts have been saying is that a strategy is required to DO something.
Fedsec has one. many other posts agree or disgaree, but put something forward anyway.

To ACTUALLY do something, or be SEEN to do something? What is being done? Monitoring O/T from the unions and getting non-O/T advocates to dob in people doing O/T? Putting a pile of statistics forward to anyone who will listen? QANTAS, CASA and FWA aren't interested. We've really got the company on the ropes haven't we!

What am I prepared to do about it? Unfortunately, we or investors don't get the chance to vote out the board, unlike the government. The only thing to do is to do my job whilst I'm still being paid by my employer. In the end, the only one to have any REAL say is the company. You may consider this a defeatist attitude or putting my head in the sand. That's fine.

When you've been around long enough in this place, as I'm sure you have been, you come to the realisation that it is a lot of talk from both sides, but the result always tips in the company's favour. We have all witnessed the shutting down of SYDHM, redundancies over the years, particularly S.I.T., the shutting down of MELHM, EOC, AVV and the list goes on (and that's just engineering). How much bleating was done about the company and their ruthlessness, and what was the eventual outcome? LESS JOBS AND LESS PEOPLE!!

[Redstone]

QF94, you surely are not a union member, if you are I can't understand why you waste all that money on membership fees.

[Acute Instinct]

Not quite......

QF94, you surely are not a union member, if you are I can't understand why you waste all that money on membership fees.

This individual is union to the core. He just happens to prefer the old way things were done. Quietly behind closed doors. Where the stones could be laid to build the yellow brick road.

The little boys room.......

Welcome back,

KR747

[33 Disengage]

who seek to destroy our unionised workforce

It may be an objective of QF management to destroy the unionised workforce but their actions to date has only increased the percentage of those in a union. Many middle managers now know that their jobs are being destroyed as well while the company continues on it's present path.

Unfortunately, if they are successful, Qantas as an airline will be destroyed. An airline that was so great, built for a large part by a unionised workforce, destroyed by people who care about their ideology more than the Aussie icon that Qantas has been.

[Sunfish]

Qf94, yours is the counsel of despair. It is unhelpful in the extreme.

Let me make myself clear. Management has the right to manage. In addition, for all I know Qantas engineers may be the laziest, most over paid, work shy, ignorant excuses for workers in the known universe. However that is not the point.

The point, dear sir, is that the way Qantas management has behaved since Dixon took over is disgusting becausde it demonstrates, if only a tenth of the allegations in Pprune are true, a calculated and deliberate cruelty to its staff that I have not witnessed elsewhere, and it seems to be deliberately inflicted for the pleasure of Qantas management and if it was possible, then management should be punished acccordingly.

They have obviousy succeeded in breaking your spirit and you will submit meekly to their tender ministrations until it is your turn for their chopping block.

To put that yet another way, the world has asked time and again why the Jews of Germany went meekly to the gas chambers. Why didn't they resist? The answer is because they behaved exactly like you. At least your Federal Secretary is putting up a fight on your behalf.

And when I talk about corporate cruelty, I've seen quite a bit - such as sacking the lowest performing Ten percent of call centre operators each month and the lowest perfoming salesman every month, but at least those practices were quite plainly linked to the profitability of the enterprise. The Qantas brand of cruelty is NOT linked to profitability and shareholder value by any mechanism I can fathom, instead it appears to be driven by narcissism. Thats my point.

[QF94]

The point, dear sir, is that the way Qantas management has behaved since Dixon took over is disgusting becausde it demonstrates, if only a tenth of the allegations in Pprune are true, a calculated and deliberate cruelty to its staff that I have not witnessed elsewhere, and it seems to be deliberately inflicted for the pleasure of Qantas management and if it was possible, then management should be punished acccordingly.

They have obviousy succeeded in breaking your spirit and you will submit meekly to their tender ministrations until it is your turn for their chopping block.

There is absolutely no argument there about the behaviour of QF management. I never said otherwise. My spirit dear sir is far from broken.

I can tell you a little secret about some of those engineers that you described in your previous post. Some of that is actually true. There are some damned lazy and overpaid engineers that think the company will stop operating without them, and they make it known. These are the very engineers that will use the union to their benefit to save their sorry hides, but in the face of management do what they're asked, because quite frankly, they know once they're out the door, they will never hold that position of "supremacy" outside the doors of QANTAS.

I do my job the way I know best. If that's capitulating to management's whims, then so be it. There have been some previous union members that fought the company in the past, and when offered a tasty carrot, took it and then hammered their former members. History has a long tale about these types of guys.

It also seems that if one has a differing opinion to others, they are an outcast and traitor, or simply weak. I guess it follows the words of Dubya Bush "You're either with us, or against us". I choose to not have blind faith or simply follow the rest of the herd.

To put that yet another way, the world has asked time and again why the Jews of Germany went meekly to the gas chambers. Why didn't they resist? The answer is because they behaved exactly like you. At least your Federal Secretary is putting up a fight on your behalf.

Sunfish, that's a bit on the dramatic side isn't it? Again, I'm not going to be drawn into your quote above, as it's off-track and quite frankly an inappropriate comparison, but a lot of those that went, in your words, "meekly" to the chambers did so with a rifle to their backs surrounded by many soldiers. That's another discussion for another day.

As you would know, corporate cruelty is not only exclusive to QANTAS, but you seemed to have changed tack about employees and QANTAS as a business. You support the demise of QANTAS and glad to see the back of it, on a number of your posts and now you allegedly support fedsec and say he's fighting the fight for the worker. There's much talk but no action. Why? Because you need a green light from FWA to take action. That won't be coming any time soon, redundancies or not.

The days of unions having any real say in QANTAS are finished. Current Labor government and FWA have made sure of that. I've been in QANTAS long enough to know that it is just a brand name now. Nothing more. Any legacy it once had is no more.

[The masked goatrider]

There's much talk but no action. Why? Because you need a green light from FWA to take action. That won't be coming any time soon, redundancies or not.

You don't need FWA approval to say no to overtime. In case your eyes were closed for the last 3 months nearly every other Lame in Sydney has stopped. Something is happening and you know it. Stop making excuses for your own greed or new management role.

Sunfish you are wrong. This QF94 is not like a Jew walking into a gas chamber. He is like the ones who volunteered to become guards within the death camp to save their own lives. His posts smack a former great big fat lie that some people repeated - Arbeit macht frei.

[AEROMEDIC]

QF94,

It's a shame that you feel the way you do about what can be done. Nothing ! ....in your view.
There is ALWAYS something, no matter how big or small and "it's not over until the fat lady sings".
The ALAEA has strategies in place as Fedsec has explained and even now the AMU's Tony Sheldon has appealed the Emirates tie-up to the ACCC. The appeal is based on no examination of Qantas's claim about the international division's terminal decline. The ALAEA may also be party to this appeal.

The strategy of not working OT has been discussed and your view on this has been made clear, but you have no desire to do anything at all. That seems a bit odd seeing as you like to post on this thread regularly.
Is this your way of doing nothing? It's not really. It's an action of doing something except that it's something negative.

I'm sure that the guys affected by the redundancies who read this thread would like to read something positive from you, but if that's beyond you, don't post.

I choose to not have blind faith or simply follow the rest of the herd.

It's easy to do nothing and just keep your head down. It takes a strong person to stand up and generate enthusiasm among his colleagues to take action but you're not one as you say.

To say nothing can be done is a nonsense. It's better to have tried and failed than to have never tried at all.

[rtv]

Well said AEROMEDIC

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The Engineers in Perth were threatened overnight for not working enough overtime. Just a reminder guys that it is illegal for any Qantas manager to say that leave will be cancelled because you can't work more than they want.

If you have been threatened please take notes and contact me immediately. The words used last night by the DMM were disgraceful. I will be over tonight to meet with Reps and investigate further.

I understand that on average 5 aircraft don't get out every morning becuase of the maintenance backlog and understaffing. This is not your fault guys and you need not work unreasable amounts of overtime to get them out of the poo. The situation was created by management. Let them fall on their own swords.

[Suck&Blow]

Here Here Steve.

[600ft-lb]

Efficiency? Cancelling leave because an operation has been setup to be perpetually understaffed and relies on excessive overtime to function. Not reasonable, excessive.

You seem to have it all worked out. Outsorce to the 2 main independent line maintenace providers. One is facing the axe from its parent company, the other has to import Singaporeans from the parent company because they don't have enough staff to function.

[mightyauster]

the other has to import Singaporeans from the parent company because they don't have enough staff to function.

Incorrect! People imported because AMSA will not pay local rates or provide training to locals.
AMSA even imports people who are not qualified and sends them on courses before local people.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Another article on avalon in todays geelong advertiser be good if union chiefs as stated in article informed members before they read it in the paper .
Bid to rescue Qantas jobs | Geelong, VIC, Australia

[duderanch]

Managers ringing people for overtime ?

Forget the buggary campaign from years ago, this is by far the most disgusting thing this company has done me. First you tell me we are overstaffed and won't have a job in the next few weeks. Then whilst after tossing and turning all night, tired from stressing what my future holds for my families way of life you have the audacity to rub salt in my wounds by harrassing me to work overtime because you haven't enough staff.

WTF ! WTF !

This world is sick !!!!

[Cassey jones]

O/T

Duderanch
You just summed up the whole situation in a nutshell.
What's pathetic is when you go to work on your normal rooster your confronted with morons in on O/T who can't work it out