Luton-9 [Archive] - Page 6

LTNman

22nd May 2018, 20:34

The barking mad plan to build a tinminal in a cul-de-sac! I fondly remember the then Airport Director barking at me for my cynicism!

The original plan was of course for an additional tunnel to the north that would have exited along Frank Lester Way. That was design engineered out of the plans for financial reasons. In effect, a circular one way system.

Probably designed out as it was a rubbish idea. An additional tunnel would put traffic back on local roads as was the original route back in the 80's. The whole idea of New Airport Way and Airport Way was to take traffic way from local roads and housing estates.

Spanish eyes

22nd May 2018, 20:46

I'm thinking it just might have shrunk just a little.
https://i.imgur.com/pPXOA8S.jpg

Scrotchidson

23rd May 2018, 08:33

Unfortunately, LTN is not an impressive airport at all. From today’s stats each of those departures will run on average nearly 20 mins late.

The CAA's stats sadly misleads the public into thinking that each airport contributes wholly to those delay stats when we all know various factors are involved.

LTN needs a thorough revamp of procedures

Procedures don't get changed via online forums and I certainly wouldn't go online and announce that an airline needs to change an SOP without knowing the full details behind why it operates in the way that it does. However, I do have good connections with base captains so I tend to speak with them when I can.

auto frequency changes

With the number of calls on the incorrect frequency for clearances in the morning we get I can only imagine how an auto frequency change will go with traffic entering the LTMA on the wrong frequency...

No, LTN ATC management and LTN airport management should be getting a grip of it and going to NATS instead telling us to “turn left, hold A4.” Pause....... “contact ground blah”. ATC may be doing their best but this type of change has to be pushed through by airport managers.

ATC work together with Airport Managers but they do not push through ATC procedures. The guys & gals up there are also a friendly bunch and visits are always welcome from those flying in and out. It's a better way to understand each other.

but the resistance to change shown on this thread is why delays at Luton and operational efficiencies are only going to get worse

Any examples?

Luton's a unique airport and with the current infrastructure and space available it is what it is. Compared to 5 years ago the place has transformed and procedurally has become a lot more efficient but that takes time and man power. New procedures don't get written overnight and money is need to make those efficiencies happen, for example enabling A1, C1, H1, B1 to become CAT III holds. You also need to control the amount of change to protect everyone within the operation because when people make mistakes, not matter what role they are in within aviation, there's always someone holding the safety accountabilities.

22/04

23rd May 2018, 15:37

A very good post scrotchidson - I was trying to say much of what you have said but with less inside knowledge I guess.

Do you have any comment on how taxiway foxtrot will work- I see as an aid to allow traffic to be routed in opposite directions, passed and sequenced and allow the occasional push back on to Delta without blocking things - a bit like the inner and outer taxiways at LHR>

cj241101

23rd May 2018, 16:13

I'm no expert on ATC procedures but would guess at the following:-

Runway 26 in use. Most if not all outbound traffic from the main and north aprons currently routes clockwise via taxiway Echo then Delta. Once Foxtrot is in use it can then turn left and keep the rest of Delta clear for inbound traffic to the east apron, which currently gets held at Alpha 5 until Delta is clear. The current problem of pushing back on to Delta and facing south will remain as it will still block traffic heading via Delta into Foxtrot. Ideally Foxtrot needs to start where Echo ends except that Harrods hangar 202 and stand 62 are there.
Runway 08 in use. Inbound traffic vacating at Alpha 1 currently taxies inbound via Delta, with a few exceptions during quieter periods, mostly destined for the southern half of the main apron. Foxtrot would permit aircraft from the north and east aprons to still head south via Delta while inbounds routed via Foxtrot. El Al, incidentally, will always taxi in and out via Delta regardless of the aircraft size (767's and 777's aren't permitted to taxi west on Echo in any case due to wing tip clearances).

LTNman

23rd May 2018, 16:17

Also is Delta still El-AL 787 friendly? Seems to be a bit of wingtip shrinkage in the last year.

Airbrake

23rd May 2018, 16:27

Scrotchidson.

We all know Stats can be used to prove anything. However, LTN & LGW compete very strongly with each other for who has the worst delays.

LTN, needs to “refresh” its procedures. If you want a base managers perspective continue talking to them. They will give you the full company PR bull, and tell you what a great company they work for. If you want some home truths and suggestions go 8nto the crew room for the morning or afternoon reports.

Auto frequency changes. Have you ever wondered why so many clearance calls go out on the wrong freq? It’s a genuine question. Part of the problem is that pre 0600L ground is closed so everything is done on Twr. Then ground opens and twr tells everybody to go to ground for ATC clearances and push, start. Then at some point delivery opens and ground tells everybody to go there. Is it a surprise that at some point somebody hasn’t kept up with the rearranging of the deck chairs? How about opening delivery at 0530L? I know that will never happen because of staffing levels and costs. That is a Luton problem.
Auto frequency changes on departure and when exiting the runway on landing work extremely well at numerous far more complex airports than Luton. Try asking a base Captain for a jump seat on a double AMS and see for yourself how it works.

I’ve been based at Luton a very long time, I’m not holding my breath for any changes.

PS. Today I walked by the white “awning” at the new terminal exit. By Christmas it will be a dirty grey and covered in grime. Who thought that was a good idea?

LGS6753

23rd May 2018, 17:44

Article on Wizz at Luton from Anna.aero:

Wizz Air to expand by 18% at its biggest base this year (http://www.anna.aero/2018/05/18/wizz-air-to-expand-by-18-at-its-biggest-base-this-year-budapest-link-1-slovakia-growing-fast/?utm_source=anna.aero+newsletter&utm_campaign=ebb006b0ae-anna_nl_230518&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ecdbf41674-ebb006b0ae-86727561)

cj241101

23rd May 2018, 18:19

Also is Delta still El-AL 787 friendly? Seems to be a bit of wingtip shrinkage in the last year.

Standard 777-200 (as operated by El Al) quoted wingspan is 199ft 11 inches.
787-8 and 787-9 quoted wingspan 197ft 4 inches.

LTNman

23rd May 2018, 19:02

cj241101

23rd May 2018, 19:23

I have noticed recently that Wizz and Easyjet push and then taxi to the Southern Apron and wait for prolonged periods with engines running. I assume they are waiting for their slot but it doesn't help the stats.

It means they are ready should their slot come forward. Better than waiting on the main apron when your pushback team gets called to attend another aircraft with an earlier slot, then find yourself with no pushback team when your own slot comes forward. Probably it also helps the airlines OTP if not the airports.

LTNman

23rd May 2018, 20:20

I had another butchers at the carbuncle that has been bolted over one of the entrances now that all the panels are up. Seems to be made from stretched canvas in various shades of off white that looks a tad dirty in places already. Aesthetically it would have been better if the colour matched the rest of the building. I have come to the conclusion that LLAOL, who is funding the expansion to 18 million rather than LLAL who is funding MS2 and the DART has run out of money as the project is already 60% over budget. They were probably obliged to fit a canopy so this is their effort to meet their obligation. In reality it will be just used as a smokers shelter so passengers will be fighting their way through a haze as it serves no other purpose.

As for the mystery wall? With a curve now going in by the terminal it would seem that if a passenger walks from the drop off area and keeps right they will go up a slope. If they keep to the left by the bus station they will use stairs. The second entrance with the carbuncle will be initially served by a temporary slope from the bus station until the rest of the wall is complete.

Level bust

24th May 2018, 09:48

It's probably the same now as it was when I was there. But easy, especially, used to push and remote park because it proved to the punters down the back that the delay was not the airlines fault, and the stats then showed that they pushed on schedule.

Scrotchidson

24th May 2018, 12:27

Do you have any comment on how taxiway foxtrot will work

Foxtrot will certainly help create additional flexibility which will enable us to flow the traffic better and allow A5 not to become blocked. It will also allow us to manipulate the traffic order where possible to allow the most optimal departure order to ensure the runway is being used as efficiently as possible. That will also come with the Alpha extension which is either going to be done at the same time a F or afterwards. IMO A extension should come first if possible. The airport also wish to use F as the re-mote de-icing area during winter months (additional rigs will be available this coming winter...)

It'll also be used for remote holding for CTOT's to allow airlines to say they pushed back on time...

Have you ever wondered why so many clearance calls go out on the wrong freq?

After being opened for around 30 mins, no, that will happen. After being opened for an hour and/or being called by an aircraft that landed with delivery open but they still call GMC. Or when you get called at 1600 and told there's no answer on delivery.....

You do make a fair point regarding the order in which the frequencies are opened however it's been like that for a few years now (unless delivery isn't opened). It's worth looking at though.

Auto frequency changes on departure and when exiting the runway on landing work extremely well at numerous far more complex airports than Luton. Try asking a base Captain for a jump seat on a double AMS and see for yourself how it works.

I'll take up that offer any day...

I'd be interested in auto frequency changes however I don't think it's something we'd locally push back on, it would be the LTMA for various reasons.

I’ve been based at Luton a very long time, I’m not holding my breath for any changes.

Come over for a cuppa.

dvc

25th May 2018, 09:50

Menzies strike postponed.

LTNman

25th May 2018, 20:30

The second entrance with its canopy is now open to the public. As predicted the canopy is a magnet for smokers and it isn't even raining despite no smoking signs being taped to the posts holding the canopy up.

Work has started on the demolition of the walkway to what was the short term car park. Inside the walkway the concrete floor is being dug up while outside two large machines are waiting to tear the structure down. Already one machine has had a little poke at the structure as a small piece of the walkway has a gash in it.

Buster the Bear

26th May 2018, 00:08

Probably designed out as it was a rubbish idea. An additional tunnel would put traffic back on local roads as was the original route back in the 80's. The whole idea of New Airport Way and Airport Way was to take traffic way from local roads and housing estates.

You are forgetting that the original plan also had a tunnel to what was going to be a huge investment by Wigmore. Why would the traffic affect local roads and estates? Very odd comment as the plan was to develop a new road back down to what was the Ibis roundabout. A circular flow of traffic. To be honest, the newly proposed road to the planned business park seems to run a similar route.

Also cost engineered out was the people mover from the Parkway station and the extensive check in facilities planned for the new station. A cul-de-sac tinminal was effectively the lowest cost option and the central area was not designed to take the huge numbers of passengers that the area currently handles. Oh and the original tinminal should of had vast glass areas, they were replaced by tin sheeting!

However many complaints are raised about the low cost nature of current developments, they only mirror what occurred during the mid 1990s, albeit on a smaller scale. Most of the reasoning back then was an unwillingness by the then Government to permit local authorities from borrowing large sums for infrastructure investments. LBC faced the prospect of needing investment into their airport, but limited by HM Govt on the amount permitted to be borrowed, thus the unique Concession Agreement which has rewarded LBC handsomely since 1997.

Having sat in many meetings between the airport and LBC, Government policy dictated that Luton was not allowed to compete with what back then was a huge financial gamble at Stansted. The monopolistic activities at the time by the BAA would be outlawed today. LBC did an incredible job against a neighbour being subsidised by their operations elsewhere around London. LBC not only had to battle Govt policy in the early 1970s and Gatwick, 20 years later they faced similar from Stansted.

All in all, LBC were correct in not selling, simply as the sustained concession income over the last 21 years completely outweighs the potential one off payment that selling up would have given. For me, the saddest part of the original concession agreement, was watching Frankfurt Airport representatives pack up and leave before the final three potential operators were announced. I had a long conversation with one of the managers sent over and it was clear that what became Fraport would have invested massively from 1998. Duty Free was being abolished and Frankfurt considered Luton to be a potentially long term income stream helping to replace the effects of losing the tax free goods income. Copenhagen did make the last 3, but I was not impressed hugely with their business plans long term, but their senior management were good and honest. They went on to take control of Newcastle.

LTNman

26th May 2018, 05:58

I never know about a second tunnel connecting to a new road through the back of the airport.

Next month the airport will put out for consultation a selection of plans and ideas to expand the airport outside its boundary for up to 38 million passengers both to the north and south of the runway. As I have mentioned on many occasions there is a large chunk of land south of the runway that is inside the Luton town boundary that is flat and level with the runway by Someries Castle.

Lee Baker Street

26th May 2018, 09:24

There are two parcels of land south of the runway. If the airport could acquire the land between the two-
that would be beneficial.

pabely

26th May 2018, 09:38

As I have mentioned on many occasions there is a large chunk of land south of the runway that is inside the Luton town boundary that is flat and level with the runway by Someries Castle.

Ideal to move the FBOs if nothing else but SIG have just spend a huge amount of money redeveloping their facilities but we are used to spending large somes then only tearing it down a few years later! They themselves buy facilities all over the world and redevelop. It could also help to keep more of the Gulfstream business at Luton. If Harrods was moved their customers would have better access and it could enable Foxtrot to go full length which would remove the pushback problem from the 8 pack and then make better use of land to the East.
The trouble with VVIP though is the amount of money it generated for the airport, a couple of G650s sitting on a stand all day vs one being used 7 / 8 times by a A320.

BTW Northolt runway now to be closed July to November/December, will it be OXD, FAB or Luton who picks all that traffic up?

pabely

26th May 2018, 09:39

There are two parcels of land south of the runway. If the airport could acquire the land between the two-
that would be beneficial.
As if Herts would be helpful in that respect!

Planespeaking

26th May 2018, 09:41

Ideal to move the FBOs if nothing else but SIG have just spend a huge amount of money redeveloping their facilities but we are used to spending large somes then only tearing it down a few years later! They themselves buy facilities all over the world and redevelop. It could also help to keep more of the Gulfstream business at Luton. If Harrods was moved their customers would have better access and it could enable Foxtrot to go full length which would remove the pushback problem from the 8 pack and then make better use of land to the East.
The trouble with VVIP though is the amount of money it generated for the airport, a couple of G650s sitting on a stand all day vs one being used 7 / 8 times by a A320.

BTW Northolt runway now to be closed July to November/December, will it be OXD, FAB or Luton who picks all that traffic up?
Perhaps SEN may even pick up the odd crumb!! What do you think?

dvc

26th May 2018, 09:43

Signature wants to use Cranfield for the long staying aircraft due to lack of space in Luton. Apparently locals are already complaining about the noise it may generate

pabely

26th May 2018, 09:57

Perhaps SEN may even pick up the odd crumb!! What do you think?
Now let me think, the reason I currently fly NHT is because my customers want to go to West London/Middlesex or the Tech corridor M4/A4, what is the best alternative, oh yes, somewhere in Essex! Sorry mate, no!

LGS6753

26th May 2018, 10:07

From an article in today's Telegraph based on an interview with Josef Varadi, Wizz Air's CEO:

"Wizz Air now occupies nearly 40pc of Luton Airport’s capacity after launching a base there last year with seven planes. The carrier has its sights set on overtaking EasyJet at Luton, the only airline to have a larger presence at the airport."

LTNman

26th May 2018, 10:26

The trouble with VVIP though is the amount of money it generated for the airport, a couple of G650s sitting on a stand all day vs one being used 7 / 8 times by a A320.

BTW Northolt runway now to be closed July to November/December, will it be OXD, FAB or Luton who picks all that traffic up?

Luton is apparently already 20% down on biz jet movements compared to last year and that is before the 4 month summer curfew cuts in.

The long term future for Signature and Harrods is not rosy at Luton with the airport always looking to expand its passenger operations over biz jet movements. Issues over parking, slots and now limited hours are all taking their toll.

Falcon666

26th May 2018, 10:48

Will certainly be interesting to see the plans when they come out.
What are the feelings about some of the Hangars disappearing or being relocated?
If they want to expand to the North I can see, with the exception of maybe Hangar 125 , the rest going and the land being used up to the perimeter of the new road if and when it is built.
i really can't see the south of the runway being used for passenger operations, just extra concrete, Hangars and maybe cargo but then there is the problem of access and a new road being built.
But heh what do I know!!

Crispo

26th May 2018, 10:51

Auto frequency changes. Have you ever wondered why so many clearance calls go out on the wrong freq? It’s a genuine question. Part of the problem is that pre 0600L ground is closed so everything is done on Twr. Then ground opens and twr tells everybody to go to ground for ATC clearances and push, start. Then at some point delivery opens and ground tells everybody to go there. Is it a surprise that at some point somebody hasn’t kept up with the rearranging of the deck chairs? How about opening delivery at 0530L? I know that will never happen because of staffing levels and costs. That is a Luton problem

Airbrake
I have wondered this many many times. When I fly I check the ATIS to ensure I've got the latest information just before making initial contact. It is always possible for the ATIS to have changed just after having listened to it but this would be a pretty infrequent circumstance and I wouldn't have thought it would explain the amount of incorrect calls you refer to.
Maybe a change of custom and practice / SOPs to get aircrew to get the latest info before initial contract could be a more practical solution than manning frequencies for longer periods (when there may not necessarily be the traffic demand to do so)?

Planespeaking

26th May 2018, 13:53

Now let me think, the reason I currently fly NHT is because my customers want to go to West London/Middlesex or the Tech corridor M4/A4, what is the best alternative, oh yes, somewhere in Essex! Sorry mate, no!
There is no need to sneer. Not so long ago LTN was somewhere in Bedfordshire, now by some reports it's rather like Kabul on a bad day, and severely restricting corporate movements. STN is somewhere in Essex and now has it's own problems, Northolt will be out of action soon, so you and your esteemed customers may be grateful for a runway, parking and a 24hr FBO near to London. Who knows you may need to get to know SEN, 'somewhere in Essex!' But only an hour from London.

LTNman

26th May 2018, 16:14

Work has finally started on the DART with the aid of a single digger digging a series of shallow excavations where the new DART station will be located .

Work seems to be already 5 months behind schedule.

For those unfamiliar with the area the airport is at the top of that hill where the DART will head in the direction of the extreme left of that hill towards the terminal.

https://i.imgur.com/63KzRCo.jpg

planedrive

26th May 2018, 17:27

forest

26th May 2018, 19:16

@Crispo - most pilots I know will wait for the 'latest' ATIS at xx20 or xx50 before getting weather/making their first call. The fact that ground/delivery opening doesn't coincide with this therefore means theres often 20-30 minutes where they won't expect a new ATIS with a different frequency and hence call on the wrong one. Perhaps moving opening 10 minutes would save a lot of hassle?

The Metar is at 20-50, all other pertinent changes like weather species, RWY in use, RWY surface state, Unservicabilities and frequencies are all updated on ATIS as they occur, thats why you will sometimes get multiple ATIS letter changes in succession. The ATIS reflects the frequency to call as soon as it is opened. Listen to ATIS, then call.
The Times at Luton as Scrotchison said are normally, TWR 2300L till 0600L, GMC at 0600L, then Delivery at 0630L if workload requires it. Sometimes Delivery will be opened earlier or later, sometimes not at all. Yes people make mistakes or are hurried, understandable and sometimes a few erroneous calls are made. Today for example i had one call for clearance with the a/c type etc etc on Air at 0930L, delivery had been open since 0630L and on the ATIS.

LTNman

27th May 2018, 06:00

Will certainly be interesting to see the plans when they come out.
What are the feelings about some of the Hangars disappearing or being relocated?

Seems reasonable to suggest that to double the size of the airport LLAL will need to find the land to double the total number of stands and to build another terminal to a similar size to the exiting one with its own road network and car parking.

I can’t see any prospect of the current CTA playing any part in those expansion plans as despite what the airport attempts with its redesigning of the drop off zones nothing fixes the problem of traffic congestion and Luton does not have the space or a blank canvas to start again. This would suggest that there is no point in expanding the main apron with another row of stands and a terminal on the hangar side would not give the airport enough new stands.

Options would be to look at the long term car park together with parts of Wigmore Park as the DART could be easily extended. For years now the airport has been raising the dropping ground by the fire training ground and this is where most of the DART soil is also going to be placed.

The other option is south of the runway and basically start again which is what Stansted did. Another DART would be required but the south has almost unlimited amounts of land. Hertfordshire would object but that would not stop the development as it would go to the government to decide.

pabely

27th May 2018, 10:28

Seems reasonable to suggest that to double the size of the airport LLAL will need to find the land to double the total number of stands and to build another terminal to a similar size to the exiting one with its own road network and car parking.

I can’t see any prospect of the current CTA playing any part in those expansion plans as despite what the airport attempts with its redesigning of the drop off zones nothing fixes the problem of traffic congestion and Luton does not have the space or a blank canvas to start again. This would suggest that there is no point in expanding the main apron with another row of stands and a terminal on the hangar side would not give the airport enough new stands.

Options would be to look at the long term car park together with parts of Wigmore Park as the DART could be easily extended. For years now the airport has been raising the dropping ground by the fire training ground and this is where most of the DART soil is also going to be placed.

The other option is south of the runway and basically start again which is what Stansted did. Another DART would be required but the south has almost unlimited amounts of land. Hertfordshire would object but that would not stop the development as it would go to the government to decide.

Doesn't it have to go to the Government anyhow, regardless of the location?

LTNman

27th May 2018, 11:11

Yes it does and Hertfordshire would object whether it was part inside Herts or not.

LTNman

28th May 2018, 05:18

I see over the last few days that traffic chaos has returned with traffic queues all the way down to beyond the railway line. I think the latest drop off area was meant to open by now but will be a few weeks late. When open will it actually make a difference to the congestion or will it make it even worse?

In principle 5 lanes will always be better than one particularly as the pedestrian crossings will have been removed but the first lane involves a hairpin bend that makes the existing entrance seem like a gentle curve. Will motorists, who are now familiar with a single lane be persuaded to miss out the first lane and to use use lanes 2, 3, 4 and 5?

With 5 lanes to choose from over a large area what lane will passengers being picked up be waiting by, as it will be difficult to spot arriving cars if they go to a different lane?

Can't help but think it will all end in tears, hopefully I will be wrong.

pabely

28th May 2018, 12:16

Public meeting held in Harpenden about Luton Airport expansion | St Albans and Harpenden News - Herts Advertiser (http://www.hertsad.co.uk/news/public-meeting-held-in-harpenden-about-luton-airport-expansion-1-5535089)

Supportive? “We heard a variety of opinions, some of which were supportive and others which were not.

Boeing737-8

28th May 2018, 17:42

forest

28th May 2018, 19:51

LTN has had many delays today and yesterday. Does anyone know the reason for aircraft taxing out to the engine run up bay and stands 20-22 to wait to take off. Long amounts of waiting and making more delays for every aircraft leaving LTN.

Slots probably, parking nose out on the south apron frees up stands for the inbounds and gives them better OTP from pushback. If slot comes forward, they start up and taxi out so no ground crew required. Been happening for years.
If they go tech on the taxi out we sometimes park them like that for them to take a few minutes to fix it if they can.
Don't see how its making more delays for every a/c leaving Luton.
We do not intentionally delay a/c, take into consideration the airlines and their handling against, push crews, fuelers, steps, passengers, slots, weather, airspace capacity, route separation and it all adds up to many many reasons why a/c depart as they do.
Flightplans when a/c are on stand are the responsibility of the a/c / airline ops, tolerance +- 15mins, a/c are very often ready with a flight plan out of tolerance, the operator has to update this before they can push or start. This can take them anywhere between 1-30mins depending on who it is.

compton3bravo

29th May 2018, 18:10

I see delays and cancellations at Luton, Gatwick and Stansted again today, presumably due to the inclement weather. The crewing departments must be tearing there hair out. Just goes to show how very little slack there is in the system and it will only get worse I am afraid.

pabely

29th May 2018, 22:37

Luton is apparently already 20% down on biz jet movements compared to last year and that is before the 4 month summer curfew cuts in.

The long term future for Signature and Harrods is not rosy at Luton with the airport always looking to expand its passenger operations over biz jet movements. Issues over parking, slots and now limited hours are all taking their toll.

A quick poke about on the Luton spotters web site does show things down but I don't know about 20%, the CAA stats don't reflect it which is odd. Do remember jets are getting larger, more and more G650s and BD700s (or whatever they are called this week). I remember when H125s and DA20 were the order of the day with a splash of LJ & CL600s.
The spotters web site does show a handful of splash & dashes in the early hours, if SEN does not pick them up then perhaps it was just fuel so London location not so important so hope for Brum or East Midlands who are full 24/7, both also a Signature FBO.

Falcon666

30th May 2018, 16:12

See investigation work starts today on the old landfill site for Century Park development, comprises 250 bore holes and pits being dug.
Work should finish by the end of July.
Interestingly this quote was on the council site.
" This work is important to safely understand more about how the former landfill site has been filled , and will also be useful information for the London Luton Airport vision for sustainable Growth 2020-2050 which we launched in December."

Ok let's read between the lines a little��

Lee Baker Street

30th May 2018, 20:30

Falcon666.
Well those in the know-know the east of the airfield is to be developed. What is your point?

Falcon666

30th May 2018, 21:21

LBS
I apologise,
Sadly I am not one of those in the know, I obviously haven't seen the plans for the Airport expansion to the East, only the plans for Century Park which shows no Airport planned development , only a business Park. I thought that most was pure speculation as to wether the Airport would expand to the North , South or East.
This was the first time I had actually read that they were boring into the Long Stay Car Park and the fact it was linked to their vision for growth.
I shall now retreat into my little shell

LTNman

30th May 2018, 21:41

Falcon666.
Well those in the know-know the east of the airfield is to be developed. What is your point?

The consultation will include a proposal south of the runway and several proposals north of the runway which is what you are calling the east of the airport. Are you claiming the consultation is a farce?

Lee Baker Street

31st May 2018, 10:30

LTNman

31st May 2018, 16:37

I haven't said anything about a preference. LLAL will go through the motions of holding a public consultation but with the DART track nicely lined up with land to the north of the runway and a dual carriageway planning application already submitted it doesn't take much effort to see the favourite location. The fly in the ointment is the council tip that while buildings can be built using pilings aprons would be more of a challenge as the council have already claimed the land would be too unstable. Usable land within the existing boundary to the north of the runway is being increased by the day with soil dumping building up low level land.

If the airport did pick a location south of the runway the application would go to the government anyway just like an application to the north so Herts would have their nose pushed out either way.

Constructor

31st May 2018, 20:40

There appears to be a bit of misinformation about dealing with the old tip. From days before I was at work I can remember using the old tip. From memory it was uncontrolled waste including dust carts. When the filling ended the area was capped with a clay material. Now it would be described as contaminated fill of poor structural strength. It can be dealt with for any type of construction. As you said piling can be used to support buildings. Piling can also be used to support slabs, (aprons and taxiways). A membrane would be needed to prevent any rainwater getting into the ground. A system to control and extract methane would be needed. The area can be built on, in my opinion.

22/04

31st May 2018, 21:13

Really one for nostalgia perhaps but can anyone tell me how the site came to be used for landfill - was it a natural or artificial (gravel extraction etc.) hole in the ground. When did it cease to be used. I think I remember it being active during my early airport visits ( 67/68).

LTNman

31st May 2018, 23:02

Just a bit of a dip in the ground I believe. Nothing on old maps to suggest it had a former life. Think it closed in the late 70’s. Some of the bore holes will be 65m deep although I don’t think the tip goes down that far.

LTNman

1st Jun 2018, 05:21

LTNman, I cannot foresee the South of the airfield being used for terminal passenger usage. Private jets and maintenance yes. Hence why I believe you are wrong. In your own words the official plans have not been disclosed yet, well certainly not into the public domain. You appear to know more than anyone else and I still remember you putting me down when I said LTN will be and remain the UK’s 5th airport. You scoffed at me. Well looks like I was right all those years ago! Maybe I might be right with regards to the eastern side of the airfield being it’s future after all many of you in here state Hertfordshire will not allow their land to be used in the airports growth.

I heard what you said but was told at the time by a senior planning officer that aprons and council tips don’t mix as there would be movement but buildings would not be a problem. Constructor says the issue can be overcome so I have no idea whether I was deliberately mislead or he was ill informed but construction costs would properly be higher which would be another factor also land to the north is again restricted in size due to existing housing

Constructor

1st Jun 2018, 07:28

To illustrate my statement google 'Madiera Airport Runway Extention. When you see the pictures substitute landfill for fresh air.
I have worked on several projects involving Landfill.

ClearLand08

1st Jun 2018, 07:42

8th and final (for now?) based Wizzair aircraft now operating from Luton.

nohold

1st Jun 2018, 21:37

I hear that the Luton runway is 'closed' from 06:00 to 07:00 local from June 2nd until September 30th 2018.

LTNman

1st Jun 2018, 22:20

dvc

1st Jun 2018, 22:23

I hear that the Luton runway is 'closed' from 06:00 to 07:00 local from June 2nd until September 30th 2018.
Only for inbound flights.

A0917/18 NOTAMN
Q) EGTT/QFALT/IV/NBO/A /000/999/5152N00022W005
A) EGGW B) 1806010500 C) 1809010600
D) 0500-0600
E) ZERO INBOUND FLOW RATE APPLIED

nohold

1st Jun 2018, 22:36

Thanks chaps!

LTNman

2nd Jun 2018, 06:59

Not closed but a zero inbound flow rate. Departures are not affected, not sure why, maybe it is so departures are not impeded by landing traffic so stopping Wizz turning up early but will again have a knock on issue for biz jets

I have had another think about this. The restriction is more to do with the early shoulder period noise restriction which is between 06:00 and 07:00 as there is a limit of 7,000 movements per year or 19.2 per day for that hour.

LTNman

2nd Jun 2018, 07:38

The first entrance to open of the terminal extension has been closed to allow the canopy and a staircase to be added. Walk to the left of the wall to use the stairs or to the right of the wall to use the slope.
https://i.imgur.com/GBGJ4Qg.jpg

Luton's state of the art signature canopy made from stretched canvas.
https://i.imgur.com/AgfLXgE.jpg

Work carries on with the removal of the walkway to what was the short term car park that was open for just over a year.
https://i.imgur.com/CeWbuoC.jpg

If anyone needs a demonstration of the decline of business jets at Luton here are some sobering photos. Not only was the pond empty of any biz jets due to Signature losing control of that apron to the airport but only 2 biz jets were parked in the NW corner and on the apron by the former flying club there were just 3 aircraft parked. Harrods seemed half empty as well no doubt due to the rumoured increase in handling charges by both FBO's to maybe compensate for the loss of business.

The pond
https://i.imgur.com/J3M1WIt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EZgAfet.jpg

South stands
https://i.imgur.com/6jQPpYk.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FTeXSqm.jpg

NW corner
https://i.imgur.com/0Ks6vKP.jpg

Total bizjets today parked on these 3 aprons were just 2 aircraft.

Expressflight

2nd Jun 2018, 08:28

Only for inbound flights.

A0917/18 NOTAMN
Q) EGTT/QFALT/IV/NBO/A /000/999/5152N00022W005
A) EGGW B) 1806010500 C) 1809010600
D) 0500-0600
E) ZERO INBOUND FLOW RATE APPLIED
When this restriction was announced in March there was another saying "No 'non-emergency' diverted flights will be accepted 0600-2159 1st June-30th September" (see link provided on post #898). That isn't currently shown by NOTAM so I wondered if that is actually being applied.

pabely

2nd Jun 2018, 12:50

When this restriction was announced in March there was another saying "No 'non-emergency' diverted flights will be accepted 0600-2159 1st June-30th September" (see link provided on post #898). That isn't currently shown by NOTAM so I wondered if that is actually being applied.

I was told overnight parking will be available on taxiway extension past fire station so that might cover such if run up bay full as well, as it sometimes is!

forest

2nd Jun 2018, 14:23

https://i.imgur.com/GBGJ4Qg.jpg

The black part of the wall denotes the level of the surface so they must be raising the level by some bit to make the slope up to the terminal.
And i assume there will be some sort of barrier on top of the wall

compton3bravo

3rd Jun 2018, 06:43

It will be interesting to see if the biz movements pick up in the middle of June what with the start of the World Cup, Ascot and Wimbledon towards the end of the month. Also there will have to be some serious head scratching at all the south east airport's regarding the Euros in 2020 with Wembley hosting matches on the 14, 19 and 23 June. Last 16 game on the 27 June, two semi-finals on 7 and 8 July and the final on 12 July with of course Ascot and Wimbledon also been staged. Forward planning?

LTNman

3rd Jun 2018, 07:21

Those with long memories will remember Luton when it had a selection of light aircraft based at the airport by the flying club and when Fields of Heathrow handled business jets.

The signs are there that Luton has passed its peak and will be on a slow decline just like the airports light aircraft were until one day they were no more.

Basically Luton is now a no go area for biz jets from midnight until 07:00 and even after that time I doubt they would find many slots until after the morning rush.

Falcon666

5th Jun 2018, 05:52

Zero inbound flow rate.

So has something changed?

The first Wizz arrival this morning was in at 6.48 and the NOTAM appears to have disappeared.

Ironically yesterday the first wave of departures seemed to get away more efficiently with minimal delays as a result of the later arriving Wizz a/c
Maybe having the zero inbound flow rate wasn't such a bad thing?

LGS6753

5th Jun 2018, 09:04

The first wave of Wizz arrivals has reduced slightly, from around 14/16 to 12/14, now that they have aircraft night-stopping. There are seven or eight Wizz night-stoppers, but some depart after 0830.

LTNman

5th Jun 2018, 10:35

The NOTAM has indeed disappeared. Still the average 19.2 movements per day between 06:00- to 07:00 will remain. Was the overnight restrictions ever NOTAMed? Maybe that type of restriction wouldn't be the subject of a NOTAM?

Buster the Bear

5th Jun 2018, 13:07

Blimey! Rumours that the multi storey needs to be demolished! Can't be true, can it?

dvc

5th Jun 2018, 13:12

Blimey! Rumours that the multi storey needs to be demolished! Can't be true, can it?
From what I've heard is causing some issues with 08 ILS system, but it is not confirmed by any reliable source

LGS6753

5th Jun 2018, 13:42

Originally Posted by Buster the Bear https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/599758-luton-9-a-67.html#post10165560)
Blimey! Rumours that the multi storey needs to be demolished! Can't be true, can it?

From what I've heard is causing some issues with 08 ILS system, but it is not confirmed by any reliable source

I hope this is just a rehash of a 2017 rumour......

LTNman

5th Jun 2018, 15:57

Sounds like complete rubbish. Just like the rumour about the wrong type of lifts being installed that were not waterproof and that the car park needed a sprinkler system installed because the fire service could not fight a car fire. The fact that it is fully open means it is structurally alright.

The DART is meant to pass to one side of it and not under it as per one rumour that seemed to come from the car park bus drivers.

The ILS issue was fixed last year and the fact that the new multistory will be bigger than the existing seems to dispel that as an issue as well.

Going back to the DART still no real start has been made apart from a few pegs being put into the ground close to Parkway

Boeing737-8

5th Jun 2018, 19:00

Buster..... what can I say

Does anyone know what routes Easyjet will be doing with the new a321 235 seater neo? First few aircraft will be based between Luton and Gatwick.

dvc

5th Jun 2018, 20:04

Buster..... what can I say

Does anyone know what routes Easyjet will be doing with the new a321 235 seater neo? First few aircraft will be based between Luton and Gatwick.
Most likely Tel Aviv.

planedrive

5th Jun 2018, 20:24

None of them are being based at LTN, at least for the foreseeable future.

toledoashley

5th Jun 2018, 20:27

Most likely Tel Aviv.

The first Gatwick route is Lanzarote.

LTNman

5th Jun 2018, 21:41

Wonder where the maintenance will be carried out? Doubt it would fit in their Luton hangar.

Buster the Bear

5th Jun 2018, 22:55

Night time parking on the Bravo taxiway extension coming soon.

Wizzair UK to take a Monarch hangar.

dvc

5th Jun 2018, 23:24

Wonder where the maintenance will be carried out? Doubt it would fit in their Luton hangar.
I was speaking with EasyTech about it and they say they will be able to fit 321's in the hangar.

Mr @ Spotty M

6th Jun 2018, 06:02

I have worked on B757s in there hangar many years ago, so a A321 should fit unless they have reduced the hangar floor area since then.

Mr @ Spotty M

6th Jun 2018, 06:06

Where did you hear that about Wizz taking one of the Monarch hangars?
It is news to us who use the hangars, there was talk of them taking some area in the office building 105, but that l hear is not happening.

LTNman

6th Jun 2018, 07:28

Night time parking on the Bravo taxiway extension coming soon.

Why???? No logic to that so again hard to believe. Why build a taxiway to increase the runway capacity only to reduce the runway capacity.

Wizzair UK to take a Monarch hangar.

Line maintenance is already done by Monarch http://www.mro-network.com/airlines/monarch-wizz-air-enter-new-line-maintenance-agreement
Would have thought it would be cheaper to let a third party do it like Monarch then go the the expense of taking on a hangar and staff for its Luton operation

Born 2016-died 2018 RIP
https://i.imgur.com/wcggDrr.jpg

The remaining bridge has suffered battle damage over the new road to the flyover
https://i.imgur.com/ygCIPbo.jpg

Looks like the hording fronting the burger outlet landside is about to be removed.

Yahoo!®

6th Jun 2018, 10:29

What an utter shambles. Having worked at Luton more than half my life, I’ve no idea why any of these botched construction projects still surprise me

22/04

6th Jun 2018, 14:34

None of them are being based at LTN, at least for the foreseeable future.

Interesting as that is not what a cabin supervisor for EasyJet told me a few months ago- then she thought there would be 2/3 based and was looking at any training
requirements. I'll check again.

compton3bravo

7th Jun 2018, 08:21

Looks like BlueAir have dropped their direct service to Cluj although you can still go via OTP if you desire or direct with Wizz. Birmingham to Cluj has also been axed by BlueAir.c

22/04

7th Jun 2018, 08:46

My sources tell me planedrive was correct. Easy 321s based LGW for the foreseeable future due allegedly to stand space/fflexibility issues.

Captain_Caveman

7th Jun 2018, 09:36

My sources tell me planedrive was correct. Easy 321s based LGW for the foreseeable future due allegedly to stand space/fflexibility issues.

the A321’s were never planned to start commercial flying from Luton. The first group will be based at Gatwick and the second group will be in Orly or Geneva. They will not be spread around the bases like the A320 fleet.

LTNman

8th Jun 2018, 15:45

People are like sheep, it doesn't matter how many times the fire exit doors are closed someone will open it within seconds and then passengers queue in an orderly line to enter or leave the terminal despite standing next to the automated doors. Always interesting to watch someone who has a full size case in each hand battle to get into or out of the terminal when the gap is only around a metre. Oh and in the background can be seen just one of many smokers trying out their new unofficial smokers shelter. I have already had a moan about it but was told that as soon as people are moved on a new group forms so they have given up trying to enforce the ban.
https://i.imgur.com/odEBqV0.jpg

Falcon666

9th Jun 2018, 10:35

Vueling.

Could LTN be losing them at the end of the winter schedule?
Nothing bookable on any routes from April 2019 , yet all other UK airports are loaded.
I take it Vigo and San Sebastián aren't operating this summer either?
The domination of the two getting stronger��

davidjohnson6

9th Jun 2018, 11:42

Luton to Vigo has tickets on sale for the summer peak at Iberia's website

Falcon666

9th Jun 2018, 12:01

Thanks David,
They must have gone on sale late and took a bit of finding in the search engines.

davidjohnson6

9th Jun 2018, 12:17

Falcon - it has puzzled me as to why Air Nostrum would decide to put flights from Luton to Spain on sale so late in the spring. They are not a startup airline and LTN-VGO has been operating each summer for the last three years - you would think a decision on their network and aircraft availability would be made at an earlier stage in the year.

That said it is indeed concerning how the orange and purple brigades are becoming dominant at Luton. Ryanair and TUI are becoming little more than bit players

FFHKG

9th Jun 2018, 14:37

I think you will find that Air Nostrum are struggling for aircraft this summer, some internal CRJ flights have been downgraded to ATR's - a change that affects my flight up to MAD in a couple of weeks - and they are also using Canaryfly aircraft on some routes.

compton3bravo

11th Jun 2018, 07:22

If Vueling are not continuing I wonder if the green airline in the same group might step in with those juicy slots with Dublin, Cork or Shannon, just a thought.

toledoashley

11th Jun 2018, 07:57

If Vueling are not continuing I wonder if the green airline in the same group might step in with those juicy slots with Dublin, Cork or Shannon, just a thought.

Would the early slot work for US connections? That's the only reason why I think the green airline would do it.

Spanish eyes

11th Jun 2018, 08:06

Views from the terminal are somewhat limited these days so a quick trip to the car park roof revealed just how busy the airfield was first thing today. Just another day I guess.

Both photos taken within a minute of each other.

https://i.imgur.com/gtxT7Lb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4dmdBrJ.jpg

LTNman

11th Jun 2018, 13:51

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/luton-airport-boss-third-runway-at-heathrow-won-t-solve-london-s-woes-a3860131.html

compton3bravo

11th Jun 2018, 15:36

1.49 million passengers in May, that is going some considering the amount of disruption during the month due ATC strikes and poor weather across Europe.

LTNman

11th Jun 2018, 16:53

May is a Spring figure but times 1.49 million by 12 and the airport is just about at capacity.

dvc

12th Jun 2018, 12:31

I could notice that all 3 handling companies were well understaffed to cope with that amount of pax most days last month. On top of that the number of delays caused by late couches serving remote stands has increased. June so far seems to be similar to May. And obviously the road to terminal is big traffic jam on daily basis now. Also comparing the increase to previous years I can already see the chaos happening later in the year.

Buster the Bear

12th Jun 2018, 15:50

The European Commission (EC) has given the green light for UK global investment manager AMP Capital Investors and Spanish airports operator Aena Internacional to acquire joint control (http://atwonline.com/airports-routes/investment-firm-sell-49-luton-airport) of London Luton Airport.

In April, private investment firm Ardian (http://atwonline.com/airports-amp-routes/abertis-pulls-out-luton-airport-concession-favor-aena-ardian)announced plans to sell its 49% stake in the airport to AMP Capital.

At the time, AMP Capital said it would continue to develop Luton in partnership with Aena.

On June 11, the EC issued a statement approving the deal.

“AMP Capital, belonging to the corporate group of AMP Limited of Australia, is active in infrastructure investment and management services, and controls Newcastle International Airport as well as Leeds Bradford Airport in the UK. Aena Internacional is majority-owned by the Spanish statutory corporation ENAIRE and is active in the management of airport infrastructure. The Commission concluded that the proposed acquisition would raise no competition concerns because of the limited impact it would have on the market,” the Commission said.

Since Ardian acquired 49% of Luton in 2013, more than £160 million ($223.3 million) has been invested in the north London Airport. Over that time, passenger numbers have grown from 9.7 million to 15.8 million in 2017, making Luton one of the UK’s fastest-growing (http://atwonline.com/airports-routes/london-luton-plans-major-growth) airports.

LTNman

12th Jun 2018, 15:53

I would think the latest temporary drop off zone will be open by the end of June. Drivers that have got used to getting in the left hand lane for the drop off zone will soon have to get into the right hand lane. So who looks at a road signs when you know where you are going? Those picking the left hand lane will end up on the service road.

For those with even short memories when the existing drop off zone opened it was expected to fix the chronic traffic congestion but it actually made the situation worse. In the first few days the traffic queue almost touched the M1 and set a new record. Lets just say the airport management where somewhat shocked at what was happening. This was in part due to a temporary pedestrian crossing from the short term car park and the infamous pedestrian crossing in the drop off area that still causes chaos today.

The new zone has no pedestrian crossings but 5 cul-de-sacs with half the kerbside in the first bay for disabled drop off. Again all traffic wishing to enter any of the 5 cul-de-sacs will have to filter into a single lane on the ring road. No doubt for the first few days a man will be directing traffic who will cause more queues as drivers stop to ask directions thus bringing the airport to a standstill.

Touch of deja vu for the airport in that every car leaving a cul-de-sac will be held up by a car queuing to enter bays 2,3,4 or 5. It will no doubt have the feel of the traffic layout from a few years back where they even tried traffic lights on the roundabout in the CTA before the traffic flow was reversed. Seems someone has a short memory as I link once again it will all end in tears.

Planespeaking

12th Jun 2018, 15:53

dvc

12th Jun 2018, 16:47

Well perhaps you should contact 'sofas are us, or even couches are us' However which ever handling company is short of coaches should be given a severe talking to!!
Did I actually type couches? :) Airport Ops do coaches, so it's nothing to do with any handling company.

Falcon666

12th Jun 2018, 18:22

LTNman,
You won't have to wait that long, according to the Airports website the new drop off area will be opening this Thursday.

LTNman

12th Jun 2018, 22:09

When has anything opened on time at Luton? Actually this is already 3 weeks late.

Due to the closeness of the temporary road that went around the third core and walkway the pavement is incredibly narrow just before the subway. Expect to see passengers queuing just to use the pavement.

gilesdavies

13th Jun 2018, 14:02

Falcon666

13th Jun 2018, 14:32

Giles, I don't think anybody at the Airport will be having sleepless nights about it.
Ryanair haven't really taken LTN seriously regarding expansion although they did hit 5 based for one year a few years back.
Not sure why this is so , maybe relates to relationships in years gone by! maybe LTN just doesn't want to be held to ransom in pricing.
As you say the slots would be snapped up anyway.
i am wondering more about SEN possibly diluting STN catchment in Essex and surrounding areas for RYR.
Whatever RYR will be getting a sweet deal at SEN.
LTN does need a couple more airlines operating though, they can't seem to retain them. Transavia, Atlas Global and now possibly Vueling to name a few.

Planespeaking

13th Jun 2018, 14:43

With Ryanair opening a new base at Southend, I wonder what this could mean for Luton?

The LTN base has been stagnent for around 5-6+ years with no new capacity and routes occasionally chopped and changed.

Could they eventually move Luton ops to Southend and extend that base further?

Only thing I can see preventing that is Michael O'Leary not wanting to hand peak morning runway slots and aircraft parking spots which are finite, to the likes of easyJet or Wizzair at Luton to easily expand! But in all seriousness with an airport like Southend having plenty of capacity, they could easily absorb Luton's Ryanair ops in addition to the routes and three aircraft just announced there.

Maybe just offering Luton a smattering of routes from other bases like Dublin and the popular Spanish routes.

I wonder when Ryanair's current agreement ends and if this could be a warning shot?

I would have thought there is still capacity at STN for growth, but LTN is beginning to show real problems in all kinds of areas, it has severe congestion problems, both in the air and on the ground, which could seriously impact on future development. SEN has space, but as far as FR is concerned perhaps it is just an opportunity to exert economic pressure elsewhere . Time will tell.

LTNman

13th Jun 2018, 14:49

With the latest drop off area opening sometime tomorrow here are a few snaps as it awaits its big day.

The 3rd core and walkway are no more which now gives a clear view of the temporary road skirting the pedestrian underpass. As can be seen the walk to the terminal will get a lot longer
https://i.imgur.com/EZlYzBM.jpg

The existing exit pay barriers will be replaced by a new set seen in the middle distance.
https://i.imgur.com/1XtEDs2.jpg

Work is taking place to reposition the former exit route for when the temporary exit road closes. This will allow the new multistory to maximize its dimensions.
https://i.imgur.com/KH8eqUc.jpg

It is always undesirable to have a man standing in the road wearing a high viz jacket. Even when the old route is still in operation drivers keep stopping for a long chat. It will be best come tomorrow that drivers get no human help.
https://i.imgur.com/lHYS7kk.jpg

It's not even raining but Luton's new unofficial smokers shelter is proving to be very popular as predicted here just before it opened.
https://i.imgur.com/PIi3LH4.jpg

LTNman

13th Jun 2018, 18:04

Buster the Bear

13th Jun 2018, 18:22

Unless something has changed, the Ryanair operation at Luton always made the airline a handsome profit. The airport operators were not prepared to 'sell their souls' to garner increased capacity.

Powerjet1

15th Jun 2018, 09:32

gilesdavies

15th Jun 2018, 12:24

Used the new temporary drop off zone just before 8.00 this morning. No problems, and staff were opening individual lanes as required, to match flow rates. Just a bit of an extra walk, but through security and into departures in 10 mins.

8am the airport is a dream...

All the based aircraft have left for the day and Wizz passengers are down at the boarding gates getting their flights.

Two hours earlier it would be much different!

LTNman

15th Jun 2018, 19:35

The morning queues are as long as ever and for the last two mornings at 5:45 the queue as normal went back to the railway line despite the new drop off area. Note the damage to the bridge hasn't been repaired. The photo shows the evening queue.
https://i.imgur.com/rVunNKI.jpg

Despite the queues most of the lanes remain empty as everyone aims to use lane A unless directed to use another lane. This does not always happen as staff are not always monitoring the first lane.
https://i.imgur.com/LhM2SkM.jpg

The main issue with the popular first lane is that despite hatched markings and signs saying no stopping cars still park up. As the turning circle is so tight the following cars then have to do a 3 or 5 point turn depending on how close the following car is behind. I was only standing there for 5 minutes when I witnessed my first accident due to a car having to do a 3 point turn and backing into the car behind. As can be seen both these cars had to reverse to make the turn as no car can do a turn without entering the yellow hatched area.

https://i.imgur.com/wntbq6u.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/unkrLXt.jpg

Then its a long walk to the terminal except these passengers have come from the terminal
https://i.imgur.com/ONZCqjQ.jpg

LTNman

15th Jun 2018, 21:17

New routes to Antalya, Bodrum and Izmir start today from Sun Express

http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?news_id=2032767&c=setreg&region=2

LTNman

16th Jun 2018, 06:48

With the latest attempt at providing a new drop off area ending in tears and with one attempt to go when it moves into its final location next year with a move to the ground floor of the new multi-storey the unpalatable truth is that the traffic situation cannot be fixed by current thinking.

Looking at the traffic over the last 2 days it would have been better to have less but wider lanes so cars can turn without being halted by illegally parked cars using the hatched areas as a dropping off point but with cars being directed to use more than one lane the traffic still queues for over a mile. With less traffic using zones B onwards illegal parking is not an issue but the jams remain as cars have to filter into a single lane before the drop off zone. It would have been better to have cars filtering into 2 lanes on the ring road with the second lane giving access to drop off zones C onwards but the ring road is only 2 lanes wide so a third lane would be required for coaches and access to the existing multi-storey .

This month the airport brings out its consultation to double numbers. It is clear the existing CTA can play no part in future airport expansion so a separate CTA and new terminal will be needed.

16th Jun 2018, 09:31

horatio_b

16th Jun 2018, 09:46

Looks like Southend is certainly seeing the benefit of the overnight restrictions on bizjets at Luton.
Between midnight and 4am today two Global Expresses and two Legacies arrived at Southend.

ericlday

16th Jun 2018, 09:51

Will be interesting to see if they can keep the numbers after the overnight restriction period is over at Luton.

dvc

16th Jun 2018, 10:08

So, just put up signs (multi lingual) by the hatched No Stopping area saying that you will be fined £60 for stopping in the hatched area (the same as the lay-bys on the approach road - where you ARE fined if caught on camera stopping in them). Put up some dummy cameras....or even real ones and fine people. Or have traffic wardens there with handheld cameras. It really presses my buttons that some people think that rules don’t apply to them and they can do whatever they like with total disregard for anyone else. :mad:

Having an accident in an area like this is a nightmare because it’s not public highway and the police won’t get involved unless someone is hurt....it makes the whole insurance/proof thing very tedious apparently.

A4I don't think that would work. I believe the road, drop offs etc. are private land and let me quote

Private companies can issue parking tickets and may call them Parking Charge Notices, but they are not the same as the Penalty Charge Notice.
They are not backed up by law. Instead, they are invoices for a breach of contract.
If the car park operator wants to force you to pay, they will need to take you to the civil court, which is costly and time-consuming.

I've heard about and spoken to few people who got "fined". Off all of those who didn't pay none were taken to court.
The dual carriageway isn't the problem either. The drop off zone itself is a bottleneck and as long as the drop off charges are competitive to public transport many will choose to get a lift by car. Maybe introducing higher peak time drop off charge would help, but I can see people complaining "I don't have that much money on me. I didn't know I have to pay more at 5am. No english ;)". That wouldn't look good in the media either..

LTNman

16th Jun 2018, 19:16

Many years ago, after the new terminal was built the airport had the then standard problem of cars parking up while the drivers waited for passengers to come out of the terminal. They would take every inch of kerbside and could sit there for an hour or more so the only place to drop off was in the middle of the drop off lane. The airport then got the towns traffic wardens to patrol the drop off zone but they were wimps and as long as the driver sat in their cars they would do nothing so the problem remained but the point to note is that traffic wardens have patrolled the airport CTA in the past.

The last drop off zone with the single lane and U bend used to have people employed to stop passengers crossing the pedestrian crossing so a few cars at a time could escape but even when that practice was stopped to be honest it made no real difference.

This time when the staff are on the ball and are looking over their shoulder at the available spaces in the first lane they just direct traffic further along so while the first lane gets blocked with the hatched parkers cars are forced to use zone B or C so are not held up if they have avoided the first lane but it does require someone to stand there directing traffic away from the first lane.

The real issue is the shear amount of traffic that travels on the dual carriageway that then has to get into a single lane and then at a slow walking pace do a sharp 90 degree turn where they see for the first time rows of drop off lanes with the first lane immediately to their right so they have no time to take in their surroundings. There are no signposts telling drivers that there are I think 5 or 6 drop off zones which is another reason why everyone would use lane 1 if allowed.

One major blunder is that the bridge over the pedestrian subway is only 2 lanes wide and as a coach and lorry lane has been coned off to avoid the queues there is only one lane available for the drop off zones even if they decide to alter the road layout to put in an extra lane for direct access to zones C onwards after the bridge.

22/04

16th Jun 2018, 22:32

In the long term we have to move away from people dropping off at transport hubs by car to public transport to the hub operating H24. Car drop off is so inefficient. We have a similar problem in an industry I am involved in railways. At the moment drop off by car is increasing walking/cycling to stations is decreasing!

I accept that walking/cycling to airports doesn't work but transport to a local public transport hub could dilute car passenger drop off.

Des the airport plan to offer drop off at the new raillink rather than into the airport when it is built?

LTNman

16th Jun 2018, 23:23

The existing plans show no road access but what is show and what is built, as we have found out, is usually completely different.

For the last few weeks everyday the construction village is full of cars but no one seems to come out of their portocabins. No idea what they are doing all day but nothing is happening at Parkway or on the route apart from a few pegs by Parkway and a few random holes a foot or so deep. The project is now a good 6 months behind schedule.

LTNman

17th Jun 2018, 05:00

So thanks to Google and it’s live traffic I can see Gatwick, Stansted, Heathrow and Birmingham have free flowing traffic almost to their drop off areas despite having pedestrian crossings to cross some of the lanes and then there is Luton which is now crossing free but with traffic queues now passing the Gypsy Lane road junction that is over a mile away. So what are all these airports doing right with there various designed drop off zones and Luton doing so wrong and who just can’t find a solution

(edit) Looking at my reference time of 6:10 I can see the queue is actually much longer than the queue for the old zone that has just been closed.

FRatSTN

17th Jun 2018, 21:42

Not sure if it was mentioned in the above... but appears the LTN to BCN route ends on 3rd July. No change to the AMS and FLR schedules.

Buster the Bear

18th Jun 2018, 11:17

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/wizz-air-to-launch-four-new-winter-routes-from-luton-14514?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Midday%20Bulletin

gilesdavies

18th Jun 2018, 11:59

Just seen on Wizz Air's Facebook page a number on interesting new routes announced, starting October through to December...

- Eilat/Ovda (Israel)
- Tromso (Norway)
- Verona (Italy)
- Grenoble (France)

All to be operated twice weekly.

Tromso one definitely sounds interesting, and not routes I would necessarily expect!

Wizz Air Press Release (https://wizzair.com/en-gb/information-and-services/about-us/news/2018/06/18/wizz-air-announces-four-new-winter-routes-from-london-luton#/)

davidjohnson6

18th Jun 2018, 15:58

If Wizz are opening Luton - Grenoble, is this perhaps a sign they think adding more flights from Luton to Eastern Europe may not achieve the profitability they want ? Or to put it another way, Luton to Eastern Europe is close to saturation ?
Of course one could argue this is Wizz also trying to diversify into other markets and reduce the risk of being concentrated in the migrant labour market

Buster the Bear

18th Jun 2018, 17:26

Ski flights and a good use for the airframes during the quieter winter months.

compton3bravo

18th Jun 2018, 17:34

Tromso, Verona and Greonble are ski destinations so I would think that they would be winter routes only. As regards Eilat is mainly a winter destination also but I read a little time ago that the tourist board were giving a discount for anybody operating the route.
If you look at a map of Eastern Europe there are still quite a number of destinations still not served from the UK.

Falcon666

18th Jun 2018, 17:46

With Eilat being picked up by Wizz , I think that only leaves GIB from the ex Monarch flight schedule.
Maybe Easy will pick up that route in S19.
i wonder why LTN doesn't have a good German route network, only Dortmund and Munich now after Hamburg was dropped.
Surely opportunities exist at FRA, CGN , DUS and others if slots are available?

FRatSTN

18th Jun 2018, 18:02

i wonder why LTN doesn't have a good German route network, only Dortmund and Munich now after Hamburg was dropped.

...and Berlin-SXF too of course

LTNman

18th Jun 2018, 19:48

Or to put it another way, Luton to Eastern Europe is close to saturation ?

I doubt it, more and more elderly parents and grandparents are now joining their children and grandchildren for a new life. Also Romania is becoming the new Poland so there is plenty of growth there to come.

So all the retail outlets are now open landside and it does sort of actually look like this apart from the ceiling where the airport has excelled itself this time. In this artists impression the vaulted ceiling that was by the original entrances and was a sort of feature for the airport had a series of feature circles hanging down from the roof over the route to departures as seen in this artists impression. I was actually quite looking forward to it but metalwork and heating ducting now criss-cross the void at low level which is strange as this bit of the terminal has underground heating. Seems that the airport ran out of black spray paint as the terminal extension pipework, ducting and electrics are all still in stand out silver. The slotted ceiling slats have so far have failed to materialize apart from what was put in before the extension opened but the gap is so wide that they might as well not be there as they hide nothing.

https://i.imgur.com/4isik6o.jpg

inOban

18th Jun 2018, 20:17

I doubt that Tromsø is a ski destination unless you enjoy skiing in the dark. Isn't it North of the Arctic Circle? I suspect the route is aimed at winter breaks and retail therapy for the residents.

WilliumMate

18th Jun 2018, 20:19

Northern Lights peepers maybe. Tromso is a nice place (well it was in 1981) but take cash, lots.

Manx

19th Jun 2018, 18:25

I doubt it, more and more elderly parents and grandparents are now joining their children and grandchildren for a new life. Also Romania is becoming the new Poland so there is plenty of growth there to come.

I find your photos and news of Luton to be quite interesting. Your need to keep quoting bloke-down-the-pub "facts" about eastern europeans really devalues your posts.

DC3 Dave

20th Jun 2018, 07:09

I find your photos and news of Luton to be quite interesting. Your need to keep quoting bloke-down-the-pub "facts" about eastern europeans really devalues your posts.

Luton airport stands for everything that's great about immigration and everything that's bad. I'm sure we're all interested in your view of the facts providing you don't become all PC and prissy over opinions others may hold.

LTNman

20th Jun 2018, 15:15

I find your photos and news of Luton to be quite interesting. Your need to keep quoting bloke-down-the-pub "facts" about eastern europeans really devalues your posts.

I don't judge but just observe. If that has offended you then too bad so I suggest you block my posts.

I am still watching in amazement as drivers park up on the yellow hatch markings in the new drop off area oblivious to the fact that no one can get past them without at least doing a 3 point turn. The airport is missing out on a major money making scheme and would be more profitable than the camera car monitoring the bus stop for stopping cars from 200 metres away outside the Holiday Inn.

LTNman

20th Jun 2018, 16:13

So as we are in the third week of June so it is worth looking again at the start dates for various parts of the DART project.

End of March work on the running line was have meant to have started which is a 87 week project
Last month work should have started on Parkway station which is a 60 week project.
The viaduct ( 59 weeks)
Gateway bridge over the A1089 (53 weeks)
Building a temporary highway for the cut and cover tunnel.(47 weeks)
June should have seen work start on diverting taxiway Alpha ( 97 weeks)

So far nothing apart from a few red pegs and a few 1m deep random digs.

It seems a familiar story when it comes to the airports building projects. They all start late, initially the work is done just by one man and his dog. Then there is a mad rush and then the work is finished way behind schedule.

2021? unlikely.

https://i.imgur.com/Zqdrd5R.jpg

Lee Baker Street

20th Jun 2018, 16:38

asdf1234

20th Jun 2018, 17:36

LTNman, whilst I am sure your a nice bloke the fact remains you are equally a very negative person! Being a racist is ok as long as you keep it to yourself! As someone who on a daily basis monitors the development of the new rail link from my departing train at Parkway to the airport CTA area- there is in fact on-going works being carried out!

I stop by here once in a while as every time I use Luton I despair at the transport facilities and I like to see what others are saying about the airport. The departure lounge improvements are welcome and I still find immigration on the way out very quick for UK passport holders as most of the arrivals don't have EU passports and queue in the "other" lane.

However I'm posting today to point out that whilst racism in private is certainly not ok, whether you keep it to yourself or promote it openly, LTNman's post was simply not racist.

Best everyone keeps on topic, and all you snowflakes offended by real life observations - avert your eyes from now on.

Planespeaking

20th Jun 2018, 17:48

LTNman, whilst I am sure your a nice bloke the fact remains you are equally a very negative person! Being a racist is ok as long as you keep it to yourself! As someone who on a daily basis monitors the development of the new rail link from my departing train at Parkway to the airport CTA area- there is in fact on-going works being carried out!

I have had my differences with LTNman over the years about his sometimes negative posts about SEN, but they were always measured and thought through. But NEVER has he been racist, and perhaps you should think very carefully before you throw such allegations online because you can face legal action. So be responsible and think before you post. An apology would be very welcome to us all.

LTNman

20th Jun 2018, 19:17

LTNman, whilst I am sure your a nice bloke the fact remains you are equally a very negative person! Being a racist is ok as long as you keep it to yourself! As someone who on a daily basis monitors the development of the new rail link from my departing train at Parkway to the airport CTA area- there is in fact on-going works being carried out!

We need to have a long chat on PM's my friend as you need educating and enlightening if you think my post was racist. Some people live in a world where even an observation is classed as offensive so should not even be mentioned despite being true.

Negative posts? Can't really argue that point but again I see things and think that can't be right so I comment. Again best to block my posts.

LTNman

20th Jun 2018, 19:51

Photo shows the holes of the former lift shafts of the third core. To the left of the bus can be seen the first floor entrance to the airport's second multistory. To the extreme left is the former drop off zone that is set to become the DART station. Some of the drop off lanes are now a pleasant 7 or 8 minute walk from the terminal in the sunshine. (trying to be positive)

https://i.imgur.com/a4B2Lm3.jpg

Not sure what has happened to this road sign but the general signage is dire with no mention of multiple drop off lanes.
https://i.imgur.com/29ugzlI.jpg

Work continues to clear the former short term car park and to put back a realigned exit route that will squeeze in between both multi-stories. With 8 exit barriers and a dedicated bus route through the CTA leaving the airport has got a whole lot better. (being very positive)

The plans show a high level road bridge linking the two car parks but we will have to see if it is put in. Almost this whole area this side of the wooden fence including the temporary road will be the new second multistory car park and will be bigger than the first with over 2000 spaces.
https://i.imgur.com/iATA0uU.jpg

Manx

20th Jun 2018, 20:53

I don't judge but just observe. If that has offended you then too bad so I suggest you block my posts.

I'm not offended, but with the standard of popular debate I know why you've been directed to draw that conclusion. I'm happy that you didn't lower yourself to accusing me of being politically correct or calling me a snowflake or some other term that morons lower themselves to using these days - they generally do that when they're offended by the assumptions of other people being offended (really!!). We should be able to comment when we're not offended but where we disagree and those comments should warrant not causing offence by default - I'm fairly sure that based on the historical information thats posted here that most of us are adults.

I've just observed that some of your posts regularly include irrelevant, out of place and unverifiable comments about Eastern Europeans and that they negatively tarnish the otherwise great content of your contributions. Those comments don't appear in any other topic on these boards that I read or from any other poster.

Apologies if you're offended by my observations but that's not my concern.

Great photo updates as always

cj241101

20th Jun 2018, 20:58

My observation concerning the latest road layout in the CTA. The 2 lanes of traffic going over the new "hump" are separated by a line of cones. Right hand lane for the drop-off area, left hand lane for the multi-storey and exit, as per the photo above. Only traffic using the drop off zone now has to exit via the pay barriers. Traffic in the right hand lane can easily slip between the cones into the left hand lane and drop their passengers off at the far end nearest the Delta taxiway, thus avoiding the pay barriers. At least 2 drivers had already worked this one out when I exited this morning. Alternatively, use the bus route, go around the old roundabout and that puts you in the left hand lane anyway. 2 cars did just that this morning as well.

Buster the Bear

20th Jun 2018, 22:03

June should have seen work start on diverting taxiway Alpha ( 97 weeks)

Where are they diverting it, Stansted!

LTNman doesn't agree with me most of the time, and I reckon the news of the terminal and associated infrastructure development should be on Civil Engineers Rumour Network, but at least we post rumours and news. Having worked at EGGW for 22 years, and please don't tell him, I actually do read his posts as the are informative!

dvc

20th Jun 2018, 23:42

June should have seen work start on diverting taxiway Alpha

Are we talking about (old) Alpha taxiway that was changed to Bravo earlier this year?

canberra97

21st Jun 2018, 03:32

Great photo update as usual LTNman but what I find surprising is that the area where the new Multi Story is going to be built was never safeguarded for extra aircraft stands. What's the occupancy like in the existing Multi Story as I'm surprised that an additional one was actually needed but I'm sure that your give me an appropriate answer. (as long as it's not racist) And I'm joking with that last comment as I'm not soft and sensitive as others seem to appear on here!

LTNman

21st Jun 2018, 05:41

Are we talking about (old) Alpha taxiway that was changed to Bravo earlier this year?
Sorry where Bravo crosses the existing bridge (was Alpha) it will be pushed to one side and then put back as the cut and cover tunnel progresses into the CTA as seen in this photo from 1998. Unlike this photo where the tunnel popped out after crossing what was then Alpha, the new cut and cover tunnel will carry on all the way to its new station. The ring road that was completed just over a year ago and has just been moved for the new hump will have to move a further two times before it reaches the hump to allow the tunnel to cross under the road.

For most passengers they will be thinking that the building work is now coming to an end. Little do they know!
https://i.imgur.com/soPwAfE.jpg

20 years later the temporary route for alpha can still be seen although part of its width was grassed over
https://i.imgur.com/xTvFnKU.jpg

What's the occupancy like in the existing Multi Story
It is rammed full. The priority parking which used to park on the top 2 floors has moved out although passengers still check in on the second floor due to the loss of the short term car park. The airport now charge a minimum of £8 for just 30 minutes to control numbers. As for safeguarding for stands look at the above post that shows the temporary drop off zone and now think of 4 or 5 stands facing the camera. The issue would then be could the terminal and CTA cope with the extra passengers as it will be maxed out with the existing stands.

Expressflight

21st Jun 2018, 07:50

People do indeed need to be very careful of accusing others in print of racism or they may find themselves in trouble but in this case the accusation was so wide of the mark as to be silly. As we all are, LTNman is entitled to voice his opinions on all aspects regarding his home airport and if some find his remarks offensive they should protect their sensitivities by blocking him. I always enjoy his informative posts even if I don't agree with him on occasions and I doubt we will ever think as one regarding SEN!

LTNman

21st Jun 2018, 08:45

I probably have very similar views about SEN but from afar. I try to see the bigger picture and also look at the weak links that should not be ignored because it is inconvenient, not that you actually ignore the big picture. Rumour, debate and information is what PPrune is all about. I was one of those that dismissed any thought of Ryanair coming to Southend so it is safe to say that folk should take all my posts with a pinch of salt as I know next to nothing.

Planespeaking

21st Jun 2018, 08:53

Expressflight

21st Jun 2018, 09:57

I was one of those that dismissed any thought of Ryanair coming to Southend so it is safe to say that folk should take all my posts with a pinch of salt as I know next to nothing.
I think most people dismissed any thought of Ryanair coming to Southend, me included and I had no inkling of it whatever until the announcement was made.

PAXboy

21st Jun 2018, 16:54

I object. No one has been more negative about LTN than me!! Having used the airport since 1984, I cannot remember saying anything in it's favour from the first time I visited the (then) new terminal when it opened. With great saddness, I have to use my local and conveniently placed airport in August. I now try to use LHR whenever possible - and that is saying something.

Monkeytennis12345

22nd Jun 2018, 04:40

Yesterday, whilst on the easy staff bus, there were two cars dropping off on the 'new' bus lane. They managed to block the lane and all for the sake of saving £3.00. This needs to be stamped out very quickly before the usual LTN chaos ensues.
And whilst I'm in rant-mode, what is it with the new arrival/departure doors now seeming to have become the new smoking areas? Even at 0400 in the morning, there were at least 20 people smoking and vaping. Now I'm a non-smoker (I know...we are the worst !) but I hope the airport are also going to deal with this as well. It really doesn't portray a good image for the 'New and Improved' LTN experience. I shall now crawl back under my stone in Hangar 89 !

LTNman

22nd Jun 2018, 05:19

Smoking under the canopy was predicated here before it opened as it was inevitable. I have already had a moan about it and was told that even though it was banned it was unenforceable because of the shear numbers. The second canopy to open doesn’t even have no smoking signs not that it would make any difference. If you think it is bad now just wait until it starts to rain as many people do stand outside in the open. It is safe to say that the canopies serve no purpose apart from offering smokers protection from the elements.

i don’t think all the people dropping off in the bus lane are doing it to avoid payment as some just pull to the left at the first opportunity as that was the side of the drop off zone last week. It will be when you see people waiting to be picked up standing in the bus lane that you will know they are doing so to avoid payment. No doubt the camera car will be moved if it is decided there is more money to be made rather than monitoring the bus stop outside the Holiday Inn.

Buster the Bear

22nd Jun 2018, 10:56

EastMids

22nd Jun 2018, 11:18

The DfT has rejected a call from the owner of Luton Airport for more East Midlands trains to call at Luton Airport Parkway station.

The station is currently served by Thameslink trains and just one East Midlands Trains service an hour. The airport wanted the DfT to increase East Midlands train services to four an hour in the new franchise, which is due to commence in August 2019.

Excellent news - absolutely the right decision. East Midlands Trains carriages (with single doors at either end) are not particularly suitable for airport traffic where passengers often have large bags, whereas the Thameslink vehicles with double doors and wide vestibules are much better. Furthermore, East Midlands Trains journey times have recently been lengthened following the Thameslink upgrades and additional stops at Parkway would have just added insult to injury for its customers.

LTNman

22nd Jun 2018, 12:13

The train service has been cut back over the years despite soaring numbers. When first opened there was a standard service of 9 trains an hour in each direction, this became 7 with the removel of 2 slow trains each hour that now start from St Albans. Now East Midland don’t stop during the peak.

Also noticed that the weekend service was halved when I used it due to operational issues with the so called improved timetable. At least Luton has an overnight service unlike most other London Airports.

Buster the Bear

22nd Jun 2018, 19:39

I assume the new longer trains are able to carry significantly more passengers than previous rolling stock?

LTNman

22nd Jun 2018, 20:10

If you stand up as the 3x3 seating or was 3x2 seating has been replaced by 2x2 seating to make more standing room but yes the trains are 50% longer
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/new-hitech-thameslink-trains-unveiled-with-fewer-seats-in-each-carriage-but-more-standing-space-a3255236.html

Captain_Caveman

25th Jun 2018, 20:30

So the Airport consultation document is online and they have whittled down all the options for expansion to the preferred option below....

https://futureluton.llal.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/nsc_luton.pdf

Yahoo!®

25th Jun 2018, 21:40

Shame they discounted option 3c so readily

Buster the Bear

25th Jun 2018, 22:06

http://i63.tinypic.com/nyv1au.jpg

Falcon666

25th Jun 2018, 22:22

So Wigmore Valley Park is mostly moving into Hertfordshire- only got to move the boundary slightly.That might prove interesting!!
Noticed in the Bartlett Square section (Page 92) they have a Multi Storey planned for next to Parkway Station and the Hotel.
Was that always planned as i haven't seen it mentioned before?

LTNman

25th Jun 2018, 23:09

They will have a fight on their hands to pull this off. The planned business park that covered much of Wigmore Park was just a big lie to allow a planning application for a dual carriageway to serve a second terminal. Not only does the park disappear but so does a large county wildlife site. The car parking extends well into Hertfordshire and crosses what was supposed to be the new Wigmore Park, which according to a park Facebook page ends up being by the Fox pub at Darley Heights.

Dannyboy39

26th Jun 2018, 06:15

Page 44 lists the scores for each of the options. All bar one scheme fails completely when it comes to carbon emissions. Surely if you have a -20 it should be completely disregarded, as it is “currently unworkable”.

It also looks like they have completely disregarded strain on the highway network.

LTNman

26th Jun 2018, 06:46

The price of Luton expansion is too high. I for one will be strongly opposing it as the plans are a shock but fully expected with the locals having their park stolen off them. A replacement park in the next county which today is a featureless farmers field is no substitution for mature trees and a large county wildlife site.

DC3 Dave

26th Jun 2018, 08:18

Well, why don't you get Boris on board? If he threatened to sacrifice life or limb by standing in front of any man with a chainsaw, I'm sure that would make them back down.

LTNman

26th Jun 2018, 08:34

The reports says the exiting terminal is unsuitable for expansion but could be tweaked together with a few more stands to increase capacity to around 21 million. No prizes for guessing where they would go but I would suggest they would be located where the temporary drop off zone is now located with the aircraft parked facing the multi-storey.

Spanish eyes

26th Jun 2018, 09:07

What a £5.70 breakfast buys you at Luton airport

https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/6620064/bloke-shares-photo-of-his-appalling-5-70-luton-airport-breakfast-and-everyone-is-fuming/

https://i.imgur.com/eqKeemX.jpg

DC3 Dave

26th Jun 2018, 10:28

Doesn't look like butter to me. Looks like someone's..... Perhaps we shouldn't go there.

compton3bravo

26th Jun 2018, 11:46

Rip off Britain again, when will they ever learn?

compton3bravo

26th Jun 2018, 13:47

Apparently horrendous delays at passport control last evening, few Border Force staff on. The airport has apologised and is taking the problem up both locally and nationally - good luck there then. Of course the airport gets in the neck when really it is not there fault. More information on the Travel Weekly website.

Smpl

27th Jun 2018, 00:07

ClearLand08

2nd Jul 2018, 19:48

Not much news here lately, but for those interested I've just noticed there is a very recent satellite photo of the airport (taken early May) now on Google Earth Pro. It clearly shows some of the newer development of the taxiway Bravo extension, south stands and terminal work. The new temporary drop off zone is also shown half completed

pabely

2nd Jul 2018, 23:14

Wizzair doing a free flight from LTN on Aug 2, returning 4th Aug, only catch, they won't tell you where to but does include a +1 and accommodation!

AirportPlanner1

3rd Jul 2018, 06:13

Wizzair doing a free flight from LTN on Aug 2, returning 4th Aug, only catch, they won't tell you where to but does include a +1 and accommodation!

Doncaster?

compton3bravo

3rd Jul 2018, 07:16

How about Dubai - new route?

Plane.Silly

3rd Jul 2018, 07:59

Bet the accommodation isn't even 1 star

Falcon666

3rd Jul 2018, 09:17

They have a similar promotion from Vienna this month- 19th I think.
See where that one goes for ideas, maybe that comes to London and ours goes to Vienna!

LTNman

6th Jul 2018, 10:02

A slope from the bus station will be opening in the coming days
https://i.imgur.com/HlxngOt.jpg

The temporary road that went around the third core due to its removal has been dug up. The exit road has been put back although slightly realigned to maximize the space available to build the second multistory. The site for the multistory is now clear with the original contractor who built the first multistory back on site.
https://i.imgur.com/xImWcS4.jpg

Work has started to clear the old drop off zone as this will be the location of the subterranean station. This could end up being an intermediate station as LLAL have plans to continue the line to a proposed Terminal 2 on the other side of the taxiway. The right hand side of the long term car park seen in the distance will be part of an L shaped apron if the airport get their way with the terminal going inside the treeline.
https://i.imgur.com/5xOFmzd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AArGjWR.jpg

Meanwhile at Parkway the cotractors village is getting bigger and a pipeline is being shifted out of shot. The runway approach lights can be seen in the distance.
https://i.imgur.com/6gMldgF.jpg

compton3bravo

6th Jul 2018, 11:29

I am not sure if it has been mentioned but Wizz are adding two more weekly flights to Chisinau Moldova from December making a total of nine weekly. Apologies if it has already been flagged up.

TOM1977

7th Jul 2018, 18:22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlRjYJGqC-I

Spanish eyes

7th Jul 2018, 21:34

The video hasn't gone down too well with those people trying to save their park.

This is lifted from their website which quotes the council leader and shows this screen shot from the video taken in their park and that the airport want to remove for their planned second terminal. I do have my sympathies with the community and think maybe shooting video in their park was not a good idea when talking about the environment.

Council leader " A lot of work is being done to develop proposals that will minimise and mitigate environmental impacts"

https://i.imgur.com/oPLeLCh.jpg

LGS6753

8th Jul 2018, 01:13

Is the Air Nostrum Pisa flight later today a charter?

compton3bravo

8th Jul 2018, 07:43

AI would guess so, it is flagged up on the Pisa departure board. Also a SprintAir ATR-72 f/t Rotterdam today presumably for the F1 at Silverstone.

compton3bravo

8th Jul 2018, 07:47

I would guess so , it is flagged up on the Pisa departure board. Also a SprintAir ATR-72 f/t Rotterdam presumably for the F1 at Silverstone.

canberra97

8th Jul 2018, 19:21

Is the Air Nostrum Pisa flight later today a charter?

Well it's obviously not a regular scheduled flight to LTN so as Compton has already pointed out it's a charter.

cj241101

8th Jul 2018, 19:38

Air Nostrum/IberiaRegional have slots to Vigo from 22nd, Sun/Thu. I haven't been able to check but I guess they will end late September. Didn't see anything for San Sebastian.

cj241101

8th Jul 2018, 19:53

Council leader " A lot of work is being done to develop proposals that will minimise and mitigate environmental impacts"

also from the council leader "the government will make the final decision on the airport expansion". Seeing as this is the same government that thinks it will be OK to flatten large suburban areas, thus displacing hundreds of residents from their homes, by approving a third runway at Heathrow, then I don't hold out much hope for one country park.

LTNman

8th Jul 2018, 21:30

boeing_eng

9th Jul 2018, 13:34

I 100% agree LTNman (and I actually work at the airport!)

Expanding the airport onto Wigmore Park will be a disaster on so many levels! The Council need to grow up and accept that they are now well out of their depth trying to keep control of the reigns of an airport that needs suitable experienced professionals at the helm at every level (not unqualified amateur Councillors!)

ExpectmorePayless

9th Jul 2018, 16:26

Lee Baker Street

9th Jul 2018, 16:44

Looking at the photo in the previous post is a joy to my eyes. The proposed replacement park is a treeless farmers field that is not even in Bedfordshire but in Hertfordshire. For those that want unlimited expansion at Luton there is always a price to pay. Yes I moved close to an airport that has been around for 80 years but I also moved close to major park that has a County Wildlife Site within it that could now disappear under terminal 2. There was no consultation over the ownership of the park, it was just handed over in a secret deal a few years ago and then kept quiet.

I might be LTNman and pro airport but I can see the bigger picture and it stinks. Sorry the price is too high so I will be objecting to any expansion outside the airports own boundary.

Also the cost will be over £1 billion, with LLAL borrowing the money from the council who will borrow the money from someone else. It could all go wrong but then greed often does.

What an absolute load of rubbish I have ever heard from LTNman in all these years!
Firstly I remember viewing the new (but then not completed) development at Wigmore back in the late 1980's. The so called park he talks about is in fact a former dump! The land is vast and if you walk amongst another 5 or 6 dog walkers (you are more than likely to see at any given time) you are more likely to experience feral youths not insured and with no helmets riding up and down on delapidated motor bikes over the VASTLY underused terrain! Anyone who has lived in Luton for many years will know that Wigmore and its associated so called wildlife park was in fact just farmers fields!

Today I attended the Airport Consultation and one factor that sticks out from the very knowlegable persons present was that the development will be considerate to the environment. The airport development will have my undisputed agreement for growth!

inOban

9th Jul 2018, 17:26

1. Many of our best wildlife reserves have been created from old dumps, quarries etc, precisely because they are not stable enough to build on.

2. Airports may be necessary, but they are by definition environmentally unfriendly. An environmentally considerate expansion? That's what's known as greenwash.

Boeing737-8

9th Jul 2018, 18:40

The council have got very greedy this time. How an earth can wigmore take 18 million more people through the road system.

Not only that but the park is being ripped apart while the local residents now don’t have any park. Any regulars to the park will know that they is a bench overlooking the runway and about 3 metres behind is a massive digger. The days of going to the bench and over looking the airport look like they will be over.

Falcon666

9th Jul 2018, 19:20

I may be in the minority but having seen the options I actually think Opt 2 is the better.

Yes it means obtaining land from Mid Beds( not easy) using green belt land ( def not easy) and heritage problems (someries)
But they could build it without all the problems associated with Wigmore , the tip , etc

Build a new road link to the south and a second line on the DART. most of this could be built without impeding on the current traffic flow into the Airport.Similar to how STN got their terminal built.

Ok I know it's not going to happen but financially it is viable in comparison to how much it will cost for the North Option.
Regarding the airport operation of having a terminal north and south of the runway, maybe somebody from ATC would like to comment on the pitfalls, if any.

The way it is at LTN at the moment give Easy one terminal and Wizz/ Blueair/Ryanair the other one. Sorted!!

LTNman

9th Jul 2018, 21:24

Wasn't Wigmore Park, the natural beauty everybody is getting so heated about, a council waste tip a few years ago. Grass and trees were planted to cover landfill. It's not exactly an area of outstanding natural beauty. More likely some grumpy dog owners upset they'll have to find somewhere else for their prize pooch to cr@p.

Take a look at the photo and what do you see??? Much of the land was a former rubbish tip but it was capped and allowed to return to nature. Much of the site was awarded county wildlife status which is a rare award.

Plane spotter Lee Baker Street wrote

Today I attended the Airport Consultation and one factor that sticks out from the very knowlegable persons present was that the development will be considerate to the environment. The airport development will have my undisputed agreement for growth!

Sorry Lee but the guys were only knowledgeable in your eyes because you are so ignorant. If you think an airport is considerate to the environment then you have lost the plot. As I said before I would support controlled limited growth but with the access road to terminal 2 linking up with New Airport Way, which is completely gridlocked in the morning how do you think the passengers are going to get to the second terminal when they will use the same road. Even the planning inspector has questioned the road capacity and that was for a business park and not a 20 million passenger terminal.

https://i.imgur.com/vlt7IE0.jpg

LTNman

9th Jul 2018, 21:32

I may be in the minority but having seen the options I actually think Opt 2 is the better.

Actually I agree with you. That would give Luton a truly second independent airport sharing the same runway. Luton is a point to point airport so no terminal swapping would be required for connecting passengers. Not that this option would save the park as plan B is the original proposal for a business park so the park would still go.

ExpectmorePayless

9th Jul 2018, 22:07

Take a look at the photo and what do you see???

https://i.imgur.com/vlt7IE0.jpg
I see plenty of weeds, nettles and overgrown horse chestnut trees. And a women in an orange top taking her prize pooch for a cr@p. I was right 😂😂😂.
Perhaps we could encourage overseas visitors to fly in and visit the park and it's outstanding natural beauty. Oh wait, more passengers, we'd need a new tinminal. 😕

inOban

9th Jul 2018, 22:22

A weed is a plant growing in the wrong place. This the natural, ie, right place, so they're not weeds. Please don't confuse wildlife value with beauty.

A wonderfully maintained garden may be beautiful to many people. It has much less wildlife value than what we see in the picture, which is beautiful in its own way.

LTNman

9th Jul 2018, 22:30

ExpectmorePayless;

And when everthing is built over I guess you will be in paradise. Takes all sorts a suppose.

Expressflight

10th Jul 2018, 08:10

I see plenty of weeds, nettles and overgrown horse chestnut trees.
I think you should get out more as you obviously have no understanding of what 'wildlife' actually is. Go to Wigmore Park and you will find out and perhaps actually learn something about the wild environment. By the way I'm not against the expansion of LTN as I think it's the best located airport for LON but to do so by destroying this sort of asset is not the way to go.

DC3 Dave

10th Jul 2018, 09:21

They took all the trees
And put 'em in a tree museum
And they charged the people
A dollar and a half to seem 'em

Don't it always seem to go,
That you don't know what you've got
Til its gone
They paved paradise
And put up a airport

boeing_eng

10th Jul 2018, 09:27

Today I attended the Airport Consultation and one factor that sticks out from the very knowlegable persons present was that the development will be considerate to the environment. The airport development will have my undisputed agreement for growth!

Lee Baker Street.....If you totally believe the words of the "very knowledgeable" persons then you are very naive indeed! Wigmore Park (whatever it's background and current perceived use) is not suitable for airport expansion (its all about location, location, location!) The only consideration the airport management have given to local residents when it comes to environmental factors in the past is building a few acoustic fences!!

LTNman

10th Jul 2018, 10:35

Lets face it, all here are airport supporters, we either work in aviation, have worked in aviation, use the airport as a passenger or are just passionate about airports, aircraft and flying in general. I think I tick most of those boxes but I can also see the dangers and am not blinded by the wish to destroy places that were created to act as public spaces and parks.

This appeared on a facebook page about our park

From the House of Commons Communities and Local Government Committee on the value and threats to local parks.

"Parks and green spaces are treasured assets and are often central to the lives of their communities. They provide opportunities for leisure, relaxation and exercise, but are also fundamental to community cohesion, physical and mental health and wellbeing, biodiversity, climate change mitigation, and local economic growth"

"Parks and green spaces matter. They make a vital contribution to many of our most important strategic objectives, such as climate change mitigation, public health and community integration. However parks are at a tipping point, and failure to match their value and the contribution they make with the resources they need to be sustained could have severe consequences. We believe that our recommendations will help to ensure that parks receive the priority they deserve, and to prevent a period of decline"

cj241101

10th Jul 2018, 11:53

A bit of history

A long, long time ago, late 1960's, the local council commissioned a report into future airport expansion. Known as the Snow Report (LADACAN referred to it as more like a blizzard) the recommendation was for, amongst other things, a new north-south runway, along the line of what then was the 18/36 grass runway. This was before there was a Wigmore Park or the Wigmore housing estate. Nothing came of it, of course.
Meanwhile the government had commissioned another report into a site for the 3rd London airport. This was the Roskill Commission, who short-listed 4 sites at Wing (Bucks), Thurleigh (Bedford), Nuthampstead (SE of Royston) and Maplin Sands (Thames estuary). Neither Stansted nor Luton came into consideration. The commission reached their decision in January 1971 and their choice was for Wing, which would have meant the closure of Luton as it would have been too close to the flight paths for the new airport. Having spent a considerable amount of (taxpayers) money on this report, the government chose to ignore it and selected Maplin Sands instead. Luton was still earmarked for closure once this new airport was built. (I'm sure this had nothing to do with the then PM instructing aircraft from Luton routing via Beacon Hill - close to Chequers - be rerouted when he was in residence...)

Following the downturn in aviation after the oil crisis in 1973/74 the government abandoned plans to build at Maplin Sands and eventually plumped for Stansted, which made a lot more sense given much of the infrastructure was already in place. The axe that had hung over Luton was finally lifted in 1978. After many years of reports/public inquiries/objections etc. work finally began developing Stansted in 1986, with the new terminal open for business in 1991.

Since then, Luton Council has hatched various plans for airport development. I can remember seeing the model in the old airport admin building (the old Court Line ops), probably the mid-90's, of a proposed development which had a satellite terminal to the east or south east of the current CTA, possibly more in the direction of the engine run bay. Nothing came of that one. In 2002 the DFT published a report into the future of air transport in the south east, which proposed for Luton - amongst other options elsewhere - either a new runway aligned NE-SW (pointing close to Harpenden and straight at Hitchin) or a 2nd parallel runway and new terminal to the south. Still waiting on that one as well.

My personal opinion is that, if the airport is to expand then south is the only sensible option, just another terminal, forget the 2nd runway. New access roads would be needed and a separate DART link as per the Option 2 in the report. Yes it means going into Hertfordshire (I've corrected this - see further post) but surely if the government are to make the final decision then objections from a neighbouring county can be dealt with. Building to the north/east of the existing site is a bonkers idea IMHO. Go where there's space, don't try and cram even more people into an area, infrastructure and road system that is already bursting at the seams. 38 million passengers per year? Ouch!

PAXboy

10th Jul 2018, 12:22

Great summary cj241101.
Expansion at LTN has to wait until final confirmation that LHR r3 will not be built. Spolier alert it won't be built. But it's another few years before they admit that ...

Falcon666

10th Jul 2018, 13:55

My personal opinion is that, if the airport is to expand then south is the only sensible option, just another terminal, forget the 2nd runway. New access roads would be needed and a separate DART link as per the Option 2 in the report. Yes it means going into Hertfordshire but surely if the government are to make the final decision then objections from a neighbouring county can be dealt with. Building to the north/east of the existing site is a bonkers idea IMHO. Go where there's space, don't try and cram even more people into an area, infrastructure and road system that is already bursting at the seams. 38 million passengers per year? Ouch!

Can somebody confirm that they do actually need to go into Hertfordshire for the South Option.
The maps I can see on the net show the land as being Mid Bedfordshire going as far south as East Hyde.

cj241101

10th Jul 2018, 14:18

Great summary cj241101.
Expansion at LTN has to wait until final confirmation that LHR r3 will not be built. Spolier alert it won't be built. But it's another few years before they admit that ...

At least when Boris becomes PM he won't have to lie in front of a bulldozer to give LHR R3 the elbow....

cj241101

10th Jul 2018, 14:21

Can somebody confirm that they do actually need to go into Hertfordshire for the South Option.
The maps I can see on the net show the land as being Mid Bedfordshire going as far south as East Hyde.

Falcon 666, I think you may be correct.

https://i.imgur.com/8z9y4c7.jpg

The ___ . ___ . ___ . lines are county boundaries but must also be local borough boundaries or similar. Heres a Google Earth view:-

https://i.imgur.com/TitvLNV.jpg

and here's one with the Herts district boundaries:-

https://i.imgur.com/HNrx9kU.jpg
The Herts problem, as you say, doesn't arise to the south only immediately east of the runway end. An area the size of the current CTA could be accommodated on what is currently farmland. OK, so if I lived either on the farm or in one of the cottages at the start of the lane leading to the south side crash gate I wouldn't be too happy. Aside from those there would be no other properties I can see being directly affected (bit better than the 800-odd properties earmarked for demolition by LHR R3).. Unlike Wigmore Park the land is flat. Get the planning application in NOW!!

Falcon666

10th Jul 2018, 15:34

cj
Thanks for the confirmation.
I am with you in regard to the south being the better Option.
The airport seem to have initially ruled this out, probably due to the fact that they have already obtained the land to the North and have already started to move soil in that direction.They see this as the easier option(not necessary the best)
They would have the problem of getting permission to build on Green Belt land and overcoming the objections for Someries in the South ,but surely it's better than the chaos that will surely ensue with 20 Million more pax trying to use a road network , that at present can't even cope at peak time for 16 Million pax.
They have said they would return to the South Option at a later date if the North was ruled out.
Cant see it happening but you never know.

ericlday

10th Jul 2018, 16:09

The Favourite does not always win the race, it might become their number one eventually.

cj241101

10th Jul 2018, 16:19

cj
Thanks for the confirmation.
They would have the problem of getting permission to build on Green Belt land and overcoming the objections for Someries in the South

Green belt land seems to have increasingly less meaning these days. Much as I disapprove of green belt land disappearing under housing estates (or airports), if the airport is to be expanded it would have to be a far better idea than the council's current preferred option. The area I have looked at would be adjacent to, but not on top of, Someries Castle, which I would have thought in its current state was a less valuable public amenity than a country park in any case. Yes I realise there are complicated issues (cost, planning permission, politics amongst them) if and wherever the airport gets extended but what seems blindingly obvious if you want to more than double the airport's capacity then DON'T try and do it where space is at a premium.

LTNman

10th Jul 2018, 18:09

The complicated issue is that options 1a to 1d, which are the park options involves building on an unstable unregulated council tip. As LLAL was handed free land maybe that would persuade them to overlook the obvious dangers. The existing project to upgrade Luton to 18 million passengers is already over a year late and is 70% over budget. Not a good sign for the future.

South is best but not in LLAL's eyes as there would need to be over spill into the Hertfordshire badlands even if it was just for airport parking.

PAXboy

11th Jul 2018, 14:09

Anything built on the 'bubble' of land to the South would require road access to be built across Herts land ...

ericlday

11th Jul 2018, 14:28

Looking at land to the south-west of the 'bubble of land', it appears to be in Bedfordshire. Geoge wood certainly is. Anything eastwards does tread upon Hertfordshires sacred land.

cj241101

11th Jul 2018, 14:51

Anything built on the 'bubble' of land to the South would require road access to be built across Herts land ...

PAXboy I beg to differ! From a different source from my earlier, here is the boundary line between Beds and Herts:-
https://i.imgur.com/DCh2V2V.jpg

South Beds yes, Herts no.

Buster the Bear

11th Jul 2018, 15:48

The Snow Report had a terminal on the south side of the runway and currently now, an ideal location for it, unless a second, (possibly) shorter runway is proposed south of 08-26, like Manchester?

LTNman

11th Jul 2018, 16:31

South Beds indeed. The Luton boundary is as depicted in an earlier post so new roads would be outside Luton's boundary.

1,562,308 million passengers in June, marking a 4% increase compared to the same time last year.

planedrive

11th Jul 2018, 17:57

2 New routes to be announced by easyJet tomorrow.

forest

11th Jul 2018, 18:05

Hopefully gibraltar at sociable times.

toledoashley

11th Jul 2018, 18:42

2 New routes to be announced by easyJet tomorrow.

Some frequency adjustments as well?

InsideLTN

11th Jul 2018, 19:09

The two new easyJet routes are Gibraltar and Krakow. I cannot confirm their launch dates at present.

PAXboy

11th Jul 2018, 20:47

Thanks cj241101, that map is far clearer to see the line.

LTNman

11th Jul 2018, 21:23

For 20 years I though the southern airport boundary was sitting by much of the Herts border but it was the South Beds border.

pabely

11th Jul 2018, 21:58

PAXboy I beg to differ! From a different source from my earlier, here is the boundary line between Beds and Herts:-
https://i.imgur.com/DCh2V2V.jpg

South Beds yes, Herts no.

Google East Hyde, very much a LU postcode, even school kids have to go to Beds schools rather than Herts.

Falcon666

12th Jul 2018, 04:46

Easyjet

Luton- Krakow now bookable starting 31 Oct
Didnt see that one coming !

On the EasyJet thread they have Gibraltar (4th Dec) as the other but not yet in the booking engine.

cj241101

12th Jul 2018, 06:41

Just a reminder of where option 2 would sit in the earlier maps:-

https://i.imgur.com/RKz5wHD.jpg
the grey line east of the airport again denotes the Herts boundary

and the Google Earth view again:-

https://i.imgur.com/TitvLNV.jpg

gilesdavies

12th Jul 2018, 07:30

easyJet showing two new routes...

2x weekly to Gibraltar
(Saturday and Tuesday)

4x weekly to Krakow
(Sunday, Monday, Wednesday and Friday)

LTNman

13th Jul 2018, 09:42

Planning application for a bus station canopy
https://i.imgur.com/tMm9BAQ.jpg

Falcon666

13th Jul 2018, 10:00

Yesterday the two current canopies looked awful with dust turning parts of them brownish.
I hope they have some type of self cleaning covering or that is going to be a big mistake on the airports half to choose white.

LTNman

13th Jul 2018, 11:57

Funny you should say that, as I was thinking the same. Give it a while and it will turn streaky grey with the dirty rain and start to match the terminal. Underneath it will turn nicotine yellow.

Falcon666

13th Jul 2018, 15:52

EasyJet's first A321 due into LTN at 17.15 on delivery flight
G-UZMA

ExpectmorePayless

13th Jul 2018, 20:33

Good grief. The 'design' of this airport goes from bad to worse. Skimpy bus shelters made from unsuitable material which is impossible to keep clean. Narrow shelters which will lead to passengers huddled beneath blocking movement of travellers in front of the terminal. No cover for passengers loading and unloading at the side of the coach. Narrow bus shelters giving little protection from the horizontal rain which frequently presents itself on this exposed site.
A large, self cleaning glass roof supported by cantilever structure is what's required with sufficient overhang to allow boarding to be completed in the dry, while the rear of the bus is open to ensure diesel fumes are ventilated.
I'm not talking the size of St Pancras but something along the lines of Farringdon station.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1000x808/1325_1_1000_20st_20pancras_e67764d4c84fbefd83a5a7191f6b71d7d 5deae05.jpg