Luton-9 [Archive] - Page 18

LTNman

19th Aug 2020, 20:09

It is a simple question but hopefully not too silly a one...

In simple terms where is this ultimate half a billion quid plus coming from & then where is it going?

The Council borrows the money at one rate and lends it to their airport company at a higher rate. The airport (LLAL) gets income by being a landlord and the collector of concession fees. It is then meant to keep what it needs to pay off the interest payments back to the council. It contributes to Council approved charities and pays the Council a dividend except the money has dried up.

LLAL has borrowed £225m for the Dart. £50m for its application to government for airport expansion and £19m buying a farm. Millions were spent on buying up land around the Dart station at Parkway. It also needs £60m this year and £23m next year for interest payments for its loans and a £18m overspend on the Dart plus spending on the DCO to government as part of it needs rewriting. LLAL also has outstanding loans around £40m going back many years but I have no idea what they spent it on as it is a secret.

The Council is also committed to spending over £100m on the terminal 2 access road and upgrading the A505.

Everything listed above should be spent by the existing concessionaire or the next concessionaire as they are meant to be carrying the risks but they are having none of it and want a Council funded gift.

LTNman

19th Aug 2020, 20:46

This is a small part of their £50m application that will be submitted to government. 1000’s of pages of documents that doesn’t even answer the question about road traffic projections or how traffic will travel the last mile from the east and the A1M to Terminal 2.

This lot is on its way to my loft.

https://i.imgur.com/hp8Qx3W.jpg

southside bobby

19th Aug 2020, 20:47

southside bobby

19th Aug 2020, 20:52

Blinking heck...reinforce/strengthen that loft & ceiling & a possible cure for insomnia as well perhaps...

LTNman

19th Aug 2020, 21:15

Thanks for the detailed explanation...Grateful.

Makes you wonder how the operator/concessionaire eases out of contractual commitments & if the Council have a legal team strong enough to recover for the Luton residents & taxpayers all or any of the investment/s being made.

The problem for the Council is that there is only 11 years left on the concession. The existing concessionaire now won’t spend vast sums of money on projects that they will have to gift to the Council in 2031 and has now ducked out of extending the taxiway at runway 25 and building a new apron.

The Council plan is that a new concessionaire will take over in 2031 who will pay off all the airport debts of around £500m as a one off upfront payment. Spend maybe £2 billion building a new airport and attaching it to the existing runway and extending the Dart. They will also be expected to pay a concession fee per passenger as before. The question is will they find a company willing to take on the protect? One thing is for sure, it would have to be something like a 99 year lease or longer.

Of course the government might turn the expansion down.

Mr Optimistic

20th Aug 2020, 04:00

The Council borrows the money at one rate and lends it to their airport company at a higher rate. The airport (LLAL) gets income by being a landlord and the collector of concession fees. It is then meant to keep what it needs to pay off the interest payments back to the council. It contributes to Council approved charities and pays the Council a dividend except the money has dried up.

LLAL has borrowed £225m for the Dart. £50m for its application to government for airport expansion and £19m buying a farm. Millions were spent on buying up land around the Dart station at Parkway. It also needs £60m this year and £23m next year for interest payments for its loans and a £18m overspend on the Dart plus spending on the DCO to government as part of it needs rewriting. LLAL also has outstanding loans around £40m going back many years but I have no idea what they spent it on as it is a secret.

The Council is also committed to spending over £100m on the terminal 2 access road and upgrading the A505.

Everything listed above should be spent by the existing concessionaire or the next concessionaire as they are meant to be carrying the risks but they are having none of it and want a Council funded gift.
Didnt quite understand this. Is LLAL also the ` concessionaire` ? If the Council own the assets, isn't LLAL a managing agent rather than landlord? It looks like an unholy mix of utility operator and construction prime contractor with cross subsidies swirling around.

LTNman

20th Aug 2020, 04:15

LLAL or London Luton Airport Ltd is the airport owner and is in turn owned by the Council. The Council gifted the airport to LLAL in 1998.

The Council also handed over the towns Wigmore Valley Park, which is one of the towns biggest parks in a secret move to provide land for a second terminal without telling the locals. At the moment this park is licensed to the airport.

LLAOL or London Luton Airport Operations Ltd is the Concessionaire. LLAOL is majority owned by Aena, who are the worlds largest airport operator and are Spanish and AMP Capital, which is an Australian investment company that owns 49% of LLAOL. They paid £350m just 2 years ago for a stake in Luton that will have to be handed over after 13 years. Seems like a bum deal to me.

AMP Capital own Leeds Bradford Airport and has a stake in Newcastle Airport.

More details here about them buying into Luton and the reasons why. https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-luton-ardian-m-a-amp/ardian-sells-49-percent-stake-in-luton-airport-concession-to-amp-capital-idUKKBN1HV142

Mr Optimistic

20th Aug 2020, 05:02

Cheers. So LLAOL are the utility and LLAL own the assets without time limit. What's the problem in principle of LLAL borrowing against future earnings assuming they can still offer a concessionaire a decent model? Why should the concessionaire be expected to invest in assets owned by LLAL - isn't that LLAL`s job?
Easy for me to ask questions but I guess you are off to work!

LTNman

20th Aug 2020, 10:42

As part of the concession agreement extension, LLAOL agreed to invest money for airport expansion. They have paid for the capacity to be increased from 12 million to 18 million passengers. The original concessionaire paid for the new terminal to be built back in I think 1999. As LLAOL don't own the asset they have spent as little as possible on the upgrade. It's a bit like someone renting a home. The house is often easy to spot as it normally need decorating but the renter won't spend the money doing it up.

The problem with LLAL, or should I say the Council investing in future earnings is that all of the money they are spending is connected with airport expansion. If the Government turns down the Development Consent Order application, which has been delayed by a year, all the money spent has been wasted, as there will be no return on the investment. LLAL was set up as a zero risk company but now it will have close to half a billion pounds worth of debt by next year. LLAL can't pay its debts so has gone to its banker for a bail out. The banker is the Council who will lend it a further £83m over the next 2 years. Much of this money will be used to pay the Council back its own money as interest payments. LLAL can't go direct to the money market as another lender will have claim to the airport if LLAL can't pay them either.

The real losers are the town ratepayers. They have lost the airports dividend, which would have been lost anyway even with no airport debt but the situation is much worse as they are having to bail out the airport due to its massive debt. Also another £18m is needed for the Dart due to an overspend and the Development Consent Order needs more money thrown at it after the legal case at Heathrow over the 3rd runway.

Meanwhile every part of Council spending is being cut back apart from the airport, which is seeing a massive increase. The Council are even introducing an airport stealth tax on is residents who will now have to pay more if they want all their bins empty.

The Council tell the towns people as little as possible, which is why they want to hold airport funding meetings in secret and why they never publish LLAL minutes.

Mr Optimistic

20th Aug 2020, 12:36

Thanks for your time in answering. There's trouble brewing over councils that decided they were competent to invest in retail and commercial space too. Oh well.

pabely

20th Aug 2020, 12:43

A good news storey involving the airport, don't know if it was a special charter as I am not aware if any routes to Beirut UK Sends Medical Equipment to Help Battle Coronavirus in Beirut ? Naharnet (http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/274294-uk-sends-medical-equipment-to-help-battle-coronavirus-in-beirut)

southside bobby

20th Aug 2020, 12:47

Agreed LTNman`s posts & knowledge have been very revealing.

richardwpprn

20th Aug 2020, 13:04

Stacey Dooley could investigate something here.

LTNman

20th Aug 2020, 13:23

Well it gets a little worse for the Council. There is a force majeure clause in the contract between LLAOL and LLAL. Even with no passengers LLAOL still has to cough up I think £3m to LLAL. It has been reported that lawyers are looking at the contract as LLAOL want to invoke the clause and keep the £3m.

The road for Terminal 2 is meant to be funded directly by the Council for tax reasons. It should be noted that the road is not part of the Development Consent Order. With the Council not having 2 pennies to rub together they will have to borrow even more money to fund it. I think the first phase is costed at over £40m. According to SEMLEP the final bill will be over £100m.

Again the Council wanted to build the road before the expansion decision was made to save time but delays mean this won’t now happen.

compton3bravo

20th Aug 2020, 16:18

Stacey who? Sorry love never heard of you!

compton3bravo

20th Aug 2020, 19:21

Wizz restarting St Petersburg tomorrow, twice weekly initially.

pabely

20th Aug 2020, 20:35

Wizz restarting St Petersburg tomorrow, twice weekly initially.
I think you will find the first resumed flight was yesterday.

richardwpprn

20th Aug 2020, 21:40

Stacey who? Sorry love never heard of you!

FYI https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/jul/29/stacey-dooley-work-really-hard-one-of-few-talents

”Journalist” “... (https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/jul/29/stacey-dooley-work-really-hard-one-of-few-talents)She sold perfume by day at Luton airport...”

compton3bravo

21st Aug 2020, 07:50

Thank you Pabely for putting me right.

pabely

21st Aug 2020, 11:36

Thank you Pabely for putting me right.
Just happened to see a press release about it, not having a dig or anything.

Buster the Bear

25th Aug 2020, 11:21

I am sure this will not affect the new golden road, rail link and Terminal 2........

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/wizz-air-sets-sights-on-20-jet-gatwick-base-as-rivals-retreat/45989468

pabely

25th Aug 2020, 11:50

Nor do I. more about forcing IAG at LGW. Sure W6/W9 would be happy with 20 based at LTN & LGW.

LTNman

25th Aug 2020, 14:17

Hopefully the UK loses its last ties with damaging EU regulations on December 31st so their interference with Gatwick should end.

davidjohnson6

25th Aug 2020, 14:22

The EU may no longer have influence over Gatwick.... but what would Gatwick management and shareholders want ? While they may be reluctant to be too nasty to Easyjet/BA/Virgin as long standing customers, they will also be heavily focused on airlines which will operate flights and bringing in revenues. I suppose in theory BA/Easyjet could pay a pile of cash to Gatwick in lieu of airport usage fees, but this might contravene (or be seen to contravene) various rules against bribery / corruption

LTNman

25th Aug 2020, 14:27

Use or lose. If the airlines are reluctant to to get Gatwick back on its feet then step aside.

davidjohnson6

25th Aug 2020, 14:29

Be careful about wishing Wizzair opens a 20 aircraft base - Luton might end up shrinking...

AirportPlanner1

25th Aug 2020, 14:36

Hopefully the UK loses its last ties with damaging EU regulations on December 31st so their interference with Gatwick should end.

Those “damaging EU regulations” are what allowed Luton and most other airports to flourish in the first place so you really should be careful what you wish for

LTNman

25th Aug 2020, 14:52

Free markets not stifling regulations. If Luton loses part of its Wizz operation to Gatwick then so be it but Wizz has hinted in the article that while Eastern Europeans are not fussy where they land Brits prefer Gatwick so there would be two different markets Wizz would target.

pabely

27th Aug 2020, 18:04

Can't remember if it has been reported before, but Wizzair are stopping seasonal Split route early in mid-september and employing that aircraft to add capacity to Portugal.

LTNman

2nd Sep 2020, 04:23

A couple of weeks ago the Council wanted to discuss £83m of Council loans to their airport company LLAL to stave off bankruptcy in closed session. This from a Council that claims it is open and transparent. The opposition group voted the closed session down and wanted the meeting held in public, as airport directors, who also sit on the scrutiny committee could not vote. The decision was deferred so the ruling group brought in zombie councillors to replace those directors who could not vote. It was then voted through that the meeting would be held in secret.

This Council has much to hide, all of the meetings of London Luton Airport Ltd, which is made up of councillor directors are held in secret even though it is just a committee of the Council. Many of Luton’s councillors from the ruling party come across as being uneducated and just do as they are told. The power is actually held by a handful of people who are not even councillors fronted by a Council leader that lost the plot years ago.

https://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/politics/councils-ps60m-loan-luton-airport-company-set-approval-private-2958505

Dannyboy39

2nd Sep 2020, 05:27

I didn’t realise directors of LLAL were actually councillors directly appointed to the board (although I suppose this makes sense as it’s council owned). One of which I know for a fact has absolutely zero experience in aviation or being on a BoD. Is it too much to ask to have a BoD that actually has industry experience?

LTNman

2nd Sep 2020, 06:56

It is only in the last few months after a complaint was made about conflicts of interest that airport directors don’t vote on airport matters at other meetings. In February the directors helped vote down a proposal that the airport pays for a local parking scheme needed due to holidaymakers using local roads to park their cars. They no doubt agreed this policy at one of their secret meetings.

inOban

2nd Sep 2020, 08:47

If you Google Local Government Investigations you will find that there are national bodies charged with investigating possible malfeasance. I suggest that you make them aware of your concerns.

Mr @ Spotty M

3rd Sep 2020, 11:03

Well it didn't take long did it.:ugh:
Health officials are trying to trace more than 200 Wizz Air passengers after authorities failed to alert the airline that eight travellers on a flight had tested positive for coronavirus, according to reports.
The Guardian reports that eight teenagers from Hampshire were diagnosed after flying to Luton with Wizz Air from Crete on August 25.

LTNman

3rd Sep 2020, 12:49

Depending on what time they landed they would have been in long queues for Border Force. One thing is for sure there would be no one enforcing the wearing of masks or social distancing at Luton but that would be the same as any airport.

https://i.imgur.com/fNgSkhJ.jpg

pabely

3rd Sep 2020, 23:39

Co-Op for Lu2on!

LTNman

4th Sep 2020, 04:04

With the greatest of respect I fail to see what a new shop at the bottom of a block of flats has to do with the airport.

pabely

4th Sep 2020, 06:28

You tell the marketing team of the project holders that, it's proximity to access to Parkway/DART does make location attractive.

LTNman

4th Sep 2020, 09:22

I was going to do a Dart construction update today but nothing has fundamentally changed since the last two dated August 2nd and August 16th so nothing is worthy of a photo.

Work seems to be progressing very slowly and might be down to the emergency cash injection the project needs, which is due to a £18m overspend, as the council has yet to cough up.

Looking at the time-line of completion date targets, the build was meant to be finished in the first week of June. The installation of the Dart equipment is meant to be finished at the end of this month when train testing is meant to begin for an April 2021 opening. That is clearly not going to happen so I am guessing the project is at least 6 months behind schedule and maybe more.

Once it is open will there be enough income to clear the £243 debt and its day to day running costs? At the moment the shuttle bus operation is run by Thameslink at no cost to LLAL or the Council. The prospect is that the Dart will actually have to be subsidised by the Council taxpayers who will never use it and who are already being hammered by airport loses and airport debts.

I

Teaboy24

4th Sep 2020, 09:31

Looking at SunExpress website, they seem to have a short series of weekly flights this December/January to Izmir with connections to other locations in Turkey.

LTNman

4th Sep 2020, 20:42

July stats

https://www.london-luton.co.uk/LondonLuton/files/db/dbc4aa85-6ecf-41a1-8544-621028fc692a.pdf

Luton will be either the second or third busiest airport in the U.K. for passenger volumes for July depending on the Stansted figures. Strange times we live in.

Update. Stansted 468,318 July, 10,000 more than Luton

pabely

4th Sep 2020, 23:06

I wonder how the ATMs compare vs STN, might give a insight of average load factor.

Buster the Bear

7th Sep 2020, 12:03

Well I never........

https://www.internationalairportreview.com/news/126261/luton-airport-aci-airport-health-accreditation/

Lee Baker Street

7th Sep 2020, 15:15

Well I never........

https://www.internationalairportreview.com/news/126261/luton-airport-aci-airport-health-accreditation/

Well done to the Airport Management at Luton for doing the best they can to make flying safer.

At the end of the day Buster it is up to individuals to look after themselves because you can not count on others to look out for you or me. However the mitigating measures brought in by the airport is identical to those of my employer which suggests LLA has gone further than most employers / organisations to protect people who visit their premises.

Spanish eyes

7th Sep 2020, 17:02

Just shows what a load of codswallop the award is then. I won't bore the masses here with a list of what is wrong but I doubt anyone has been here to examine the airport. If they have they were given a very selective tour at a very quiet time of day. More of a case of a questionnaire with multi choice answers. Restaurants do seem to conform to regulations though. This is not a knock at Luton as airports have not been designed with social distancing in mind so in many areas it is just not possible.

pabely

7th Sep 2020, 18:53

So Luton's busiest routes are Lisbon & Porto currently, if Portugal keeps this up it will be like the Winter Geneva & Zurich used to be many years ago!
I remember sitting waiting for my flight one year thinking that is almost an hourly shuttle, on check FR24 showed 16 flights that day!

Buster the Bear

7th Sep 2020, 20:29

The airport managed it on the day it was inspected, taking to staff in the Tinminal, you get a completely different view about how secure the place is.

SWBKCB

7th Sep 2020, 20:56

The airport managed it on the day it was inspected, taking to staff in the Tinminal, you get a completely different view about how secure the place is.

So there was a physical check, rather than just a paper assessment?

LTNman

8th Sep 2020, 04:59

No idea but the accreditation must be lax when Luton got it if and when the following areas were examined. This award is more about the processes put in place rather than the practicalities of using it.

All passenger areas and processes are considered including terminal access, check-in areas, security screening, boarding gates, lounges, retail, food and beverages, gate equipment such as boarding bridges, escalators and elevators, border control areas and facilities (in collaboration with authorities), baggage claim area and arrivals exit.

Screens have been put up for the check-in desks to protect staff but when vast areas of check-in desks can be unused why is there side by side check-in of passengers?

The airport would have paid for this just like they paid £2000 per car park for Park Mark accreditation for its car parks. They were claiming Park Mark for their priority parking when open waste ground was being used for the storage of passengers cars before the gateway bridge was built opposite the Ibis. Maybe it was just an oversight but it did undermine the integrity of the scheme when half the site was not even fenced.

SeanM1997

8th Sep 2020, 10:42

Wizz Air starting London Luton to Catania from 22 October 2020 with 2x weekly flights
https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1303282398331908097

pabely

8th Sep 2020, 21:23

Good Grief article from Hertfordshire Mercury about residents of Breachwood Green and Luton Airport.
Terminals, Runways, specific Gatwick flights now using Luton, at least they get the fact right about how long there has been an airport.
Must have short memories not remembering the 1-11s and 737-200s !

LTNman

8th Sep 2020, 21:51

Also incorrect was the statement that they are 3.6 miles from the airport. More like one mile from the end of the runway.

Normal BS from Andy Malcolm

Cllr Andy Malcolm , chair of Luton Council’s airport company London Luton Airport Ltd (LLAL), said: “As the airport’s owner, we are entirely focused on supporting and improving people’s lives,

I think the people of Breachwood Green would disagree.

As well as the chairman of Luton Airport he is also the finance portfolio holder for the Council as well as a Councillor. All very handy when you want to give yourself an additional £83m loan, which will now be approved at a secret meeting because the ruling party are too ashamed and embarrassed to hold it in public.

At the same time the residents of Luton, who the airport claim to be entirely focusing on by supporting and improving people’s lives, are being hammered by Council cutbacks due to its airport and its massive borrowings that were made under Andy Malcolm’s joint watch.

Mr Optimistic

9th Sep 2020, 00:00

You need to drag the MP into this, and the national press .

LTNman

9th Sep 2020, 05:04

You need to drag the MP into this, and the national press .

Well you can’t make this up but the MP who is the MP that covers the airport is also a Councillor for the ruling party in Luton. Yes she has two jobs so being a MP gives her lots of free time to be a Councillor as well.

When it comes to the airport there is scandal after scandal. One of the best ones involved the planning committee. After taking control of the 75 acre local park that adjoins the airport without even a consultation. The airport (LLAL) puts in a planning application to the Council (remember that the airport is the Council) to build the Terminal 2 access road on the pretence it was for a business park.

One of the Councillors who voted in favour of the application sits on a management committee of a company that is also a registered charity. Nothing wrong in that except that company had received over £820,000 in grants from LLAL.

Well members of the community kicked off, there was a stink in the papers with this “clown” publishing a statement that was clearly written by the Council on his behalf saying he had done nothing wrong. The claim was that he had broken Section 106 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 and the council’s code of conduct by taking part and voting on the planning application.

The Council was obliged to convene a Standards Committee hearing that reviews the actions of Councillors. With his Councillor mates sitting on that committee there were no surprises he was cleared. It’s a bit like a court case before a jury and half the jury go drinking with the defendant once a week.

Oh and this hearing that was meant to be held in public was conducted without members of the public in attendance as the Council kept the hearing date a secret. Even those making the complaints and who wanted to attend knew nothing until weeks later which led to another complaint.

SeanM1997

9th Sep 2020, 12:41

Wizz Air to launch London Luton - Bacau on 1 October 2020 instead of 29 October 2020 on Luton based aircraft. Initially 5x weekly flights before route moves to BCM base on 29 October and operates daily

LTNman

9th Sep 2020, 13:39

pabely

14th Sep 2020, 11:32

Is this a result, better than some would have thought https://www.standard.co.uk/business/luton-airport-passenger-numbers-dropped-56-in-august-a4546681.html

LTNman

14th Sep 2020, 16:24

A good result for Luton but how does the Council know for not only this financial year (2020/2021) but the financial year of 2021/2022, how much the Council needs to bail out the airport. I suspect some of that bailout money won’t be needed and will be secretly diverted. With LLAL refusing to publish minutes we will never know.

BHX5DME

14th Sep 2020, 17:21

Passenger numbers at London Luton Airport (LLA) were down 56% last month compared to August 2019, with 820,000 travelling through the airport compared to 1.7m last year.

While the figures represent an improvement on July, they continue to show the impact that coronavirus is having on the aviation sector. Across the summer as a whole (June, July and August) the total number of passengers were down 75% compared to last year, as the pandemic continues to weigh on the sector.

LLA, along with the rest of the UK’s 20 biggest airports, recently wrote to the Prime Minister to warn that the economy faces “irreparable damage” unless there is action on implementing a testing regime for aviation.

Alberto Martin, CEO of LLA, said: “The summer period is the busiest time of year at LLA, and while I’m pleased to have welcomed more passengers during August, it’s a long way from our normal busy holiday period. We’ve seen an encouraging rise in seat sales in recent months, but we also need to be realistic about what the future holds. With summer drawing to a close, and with quarantine measures continuing to be imposed, urgent Government support for the sector will be vital to ensure that the crisis of the aviation sector does not worsen and the livelihoods of the thousands of people who rely on it are not jeopardised".

LLA is taking additional steps to ensure the safety of travellers and staff members. These measures include the installation of protective screens at customer service points, hand sanitiser stations throughout the airport and an enhanced cleaning and disinfection routine. LLA’s efforts in this area were recently recognised when it was awarded certification from the ACI Airport Health Accreditation programme. LLA is the first airport in the UK to be awarded certification, which means passengers can be sure that the health and safety measures introduced at the airport are industry best practice globally.

pabely

18th Sep 2020, 14:40

176 jobs at risk at Menzies after end of Furloughs

wallp

18th Sep 2020, 15:14

Is it just El-Al and Tui from the roster of airlines at Luton who have yet to return?

LTNman

18th Sep 2020, 17:42

Vueling or was it Level, can’t remember what came first.
FlyBosnia went for good at some point. Was it pre corvid?

Menzies just handles Easyjet

22/04

18th Sep 2020, 18:09

Vueling then Level

davidjohnson6

18th Sep 2020, 22:25

FlyBosnia stopped flying to Luton in 2019 I think, well before Covid became significant in Europe

crunchynutter

19th Sep 2020, 09:49

176 jobs at risk at Menzies after end of Furloughs
Wow, is that all of them, how many do Menzies employ at LTN ?

pabely

19th Sep 2020, 09:55

Wow, is that all of them, how many do Menzies employ at LTN ?

I think it was about 50%

The96er

19th Sep 2020, 14:03

176 jobs at risk at Menzies after end of Furloughs

Menzies MAN just had a cull from 440 to 110, although, a big chunk of that whould have accounted for the collapse of Flybe. I suspect Menzies LGW will no doubt take a bike drop in numbers too.

cj241101

24th Sep 2020, 16:58

FlyBosnia stopped flying to Luton in 2019 I think, well before Covid became significant in Europe
Flights were suspended from the end of Feb 2020.

Lee Baker Street

25th Sep 2020, 04:58

Flights were suspended from the end of Feb 2020.

To my knowledge the airline has cancelled all previous scheduled flights and now operates seasonal / adhoc / charter flights only, using leased aircraft as it no longer has its own aircraft or crews.

PLAMALTN

25th Sep 2020, 12:43

Anyone know what's going on with the Sun Express? Looks like 3 attempts to land and considerable time in the hold.

https://www.flightradar24.com/SXS77J/2599e06d

SWBKCB

25th Sep 2020, 12:55

Anyone know what's going on with the Sun Express? Looks like 3 attempts to land and considerable time in the hold.

https://www.flightradar24.com/SXS77J/2599e06d

Crosswinds?

PLAMALTN

25th Sep 2020, 13:09

That's what I assumed - Looks like they had gusts up to 35kts forecast......

Aircraft diverted to Birmingham and is now on stand

LGS6753

25th Sep 2020, 13:47

Looking at FR24, it carried out one missed approach, then did two circuits north of LTN. Tracked east and did 6 or 7 circuits north of Buntingford, another two north of LTN, a second missed approach, then off to Birmingham for a straight-in landing on 33.
Meantime, various arrivals and departures at Luton.

LTNman

27th Sep 2020, 16:10

Only emergency loans from the Council is keeping this project going, as LLAL would be bankrupt without a £60m cash injection. £18m is required for the Dart taking the spend to £243m

Luton Airport Parkway Station Dart footbridge under construction
https://i.imgur.com/8l3Epq6.jpg

Still a gaping hole at the Dart station interchange. At some point Network Rail will increase the length of the building for station access to the railway tracks from the ground floor for local residents
https://i.imgur.com/S8jw7hO.jpg

Careful examination might show the yellow ceiling being installed at the far end. What is the point of the gap between the walls and the roof apart from letting the rain and wind in?
https://i.imgur.com/72o89Ne.jpg

First view of the Central Station roof for car passengers after exiting the tunnel.
https://i.imgur.com/8AZuGvR.jpg

Above the Dart maintenance area. Taxiway Foxtrot is once again an easyjet storage area as is the Run Up Bay and the South Stands
https://i.imgur.com/DH8nZ2d.jpg

Brackets are being installed to the metalwork to support the roof. Also the platform sliding door framework is in place
https://i.imgur.com/pa4XGiB.jpg

LTNman

28th Sep 2020, 04:38

With a £243m debt to pay off plus interest payments, a maintenance contract to pay for and 24/7 staff attendance the question becomes how much of a financial burden will the Dart be on LLAL and the towns council taxpayers who will never use the service?

With rail passengers decimated will LLAL run both Dart trains or will they cut back to a single track/train operation with a frequency half that of the existing shuttle bus operation?

What LLAL and the Council have not mentioned is that the existing service is operated by the rail franchise holder Thameslink at no cost to the airport operator, the airport owner or the Council. All that will change next year when LLAL, which was formed as just a collector of rents and franchise payments can now add transport operator to its list of property developer, airport investor and land buyer.

As for the airport operator, they will be congratulating themselves for refusing to put in a single penny to this project.

Another thing to consider is will Thamelink actually cease the shuttle bus operation as it is part of their franchise agreement with government? Will they run a cheaper bus service so cutting demand for the Dart, as the scheduled travel time is only one minute slower but actually stops outside the terminal rather than a two minute walk away.

As for the passenger cost to use the Dart? It hadn’t been announced yet but is expected to be the UK’s most expensive 2km journey by public transport.

Dannyboy39

28th Sep 2020, 07:37

Whether it costs a lot of money or not, it is needed. The airport will never be taken seriously by some without it.

We need to stop thinking about today in this country and thinking about tomorrow. Yes we are in an extraordinary situation, but LTN as an airport is a viable business.

LTNman

28th Sep 2020, 09:03

Actually it is not needed. The airport reached its legal capacity of 18,000,000 in 2019 some two years before the Dart will be finished. The Dart will be needed if the Government approves the DCO application to be submitted next year. If it is refused the Council and LLAL will have blown £243m of Council Taxpayers money, as the Dart will not add a single passenger to the airport.

Work on the Dart should only be started on approval of the DCO and by the new concessionaire as part of their agreement and not by LLAL. Also remember that the existing terminal station will become an intermediate stop and that the running gear and electronic equipment will all be in the wrong place so the Dart will have to be shut down at some point to extend it.

LGS6753

28th Sep 2020, 11:47

Another thing to consider is will Thameslink actually cease the shuttle bus operation as it is part of their franchise agreement with government? Will they run a cheaper bus service so cutting demand for the Dart, as the scheduled travel time is only one minute slower but actually stops outside the terminal rather than a two minute walk away.

The rail franchising model is now dead. Rail operators will enter in to agreements with HMG to run its railways for a fee, and HMG will own the fares. That will (presumably) be the opportunity to amend the Thameslink operating agreement.

boeing_eng

28th Sep 2020, 12:08

The airport may be a viable business but what is not viable is the current financial arrangements between LLAL and the Council. So many local council tax paying residents are effectively being kept in the dark due to the the many forms of obfuscation the Council employ. Its time a much more concerted effort was made to fully expose the situation.....Unfortunately, the local Labour MP is effectively in bed with the majority Labour croneys in the Council so no chance of any redress there!

LTNman

28th Sep 2020, 15:05

boeing_eng is spot on. Reasonable Freedom of Information requests are being turned down by the House of Secrets regarding HM Treasury Business Case guidelines and their justification for building the Dart.

Something to hide? Absolutely!

Council now under investigation by the Information Commissioners Office for withholding information as the Council appears to be desperate to hang on to one more secret.

So who does the Council represent? Well it is not the people that is for sure. They are trying to protect their own self interests and Council careers, as many think dodgy deeds have been taking place behind locked doors in darkened rooms.

LGS6753

28th Sep 2020, 15:34

So who does the Council represent? Well it is not the people that is for sure.

At the risk of going off-topic - check the proportion of postal votes, often a sign that things aren't right.

Manx

28th Sep 2020, 17:20

LTNman

28th Sep 2020, 18:08

Point taken but moaning posts as you put it concern the airports owner and the people of Luton who we are told own the asset. I don’t think I ever mention political parties by name. I will try not to repeat myself in future though.

chesna152

28th Sep 2020, 18:43

Point taken but moaning posts as you put it concern the airports owner and the people of Luton who we are told own the asset. I will try not to repeat myself in future.

Please do continue to enlighten on these matters! The financial affairs and developing situation of the public pumping money into this asset, I for one find fascinating and seems like a scandal waiting to be uncovered! This is information completely relevant to this thread!

22/04

28th Sep 2020, 19:13

"The rail franchising model is now dead. Rail operators will enter in to agreements with HMG to run its railways for a fee, and HMG will own the fares. That will (presumably) be the opportunity to amend the Thameslink operating agreement"

I think Thameslink is already a managment contract so little change in that case.

Lee Baker Street

28th Sep 2020, 21:01

Is it worth having two Luton threads? One to include news about the airport, routes, recovery etc. and the other for people to post their gripes with the political landscape with the local council and airport managemenr. There's not much changing with the latter, just the same gripes being posted every other post including in irrelevant posts, just to get a moan in. Why the gripes clearly have some foundation, the posts are about as newsworthy and interesting as if somebody decided to post every other day that easyJet operate from the airport on days that have a "y" in them. It's drowning out other content to the point of this thread becoming unreadable.

Well said Manx. I pay my community charge here in Luton and therefore want to see the airport redeveloped and thrive! Like yourself I am more interested in new routes, new airlines and passenger levels rather than the constant negative comments which in my opinion seems to be politically motivated.

I have high hopes for the airport to recover in the next couple of years and a vision that Luton should become the UK’s Third Airport.

BHX5DME

28th Sep 2020, 21:31

Well said Manx. I pay my community charge here in Luton and therefore want to see the airport redeveloped and thrive! Like yourself I am more interested in new routes, new airlines and passenger levels rather than the constant negative comments which in my opinion seems to be politically motivated.

I have high hopes for the airport to recover in the next couple of years and a vision that Luton should become the UK’s Third Airport.

Agreed - Luton is the top performing airport in the UK at the moment more than doubling its market share in August 20 compared to August 19.

LTNman

28th Sep 2020, 21:35

And jumping a place to become the UK’s 4th busiest airport in August. So pleased to be the giver of good news. Thank you Wizz, as I never saw that coming this time last year.

The positive news continues with planning permission about to be granted this week for yet another hotel. This one will have 8 floors and contain 171 bedrooms and will be located in the hotel section of the airport along Old Airport Way. The new hotel together with the exiting hotel next door will have reduced parking of 0.24 spaces per bedroom.

The hotel forum of Luton has objected stating that there are already well over 3000 nightly beds available in the town and this is already unsustainable.

Another new hotel opposite the Ibis has yet to be started with another 2 in the pipeline making a potential total of 9 at the airport..

Spanish eyes

29th Sep 2020, 05:53

Just my two penneth on the subject of attempted post suppression by those that don’t like a message. Thankfully this is not the Southend thread where intolerance to some posts can lead to a stream of abuse by those that cannot handle what is perceived as a negative post even when it is based on facts. I would post there on rare occasions but stopped a few years back as I didn’t like the personal attacks as the group motto was to shoot the messenger and to pretend everything was rosy.

Now we have the hints of that phenomenon here. Certainly some of my posts have not gone down well so I normally restrict my thoughts as why bother to have an opinion that is usually made through personal observations when it is shut down by fans that never come to the airport from one year to the next but consider their opinions as being more valid.

This thread should not only cover new routes and airlines but management style including the decisions of the owners. While poor decisions have no impact on most people’s lives when they live in a town linked to its local airport Luton is different. The town has seen first hand what happens when a limited company owned by a local authority gets it wrong. Mass redundancy of council employees, services binned with the poorest being forced to pay more but airport spending increased due to an airport that cannot pay its borrowing debts.

Those in charge and running the show try to hide the truth from its citizens so it is refreshing to see the beans spilled here where "facts" that would be buried are revealed. It has been suggested that Luton should have two threads. I actually agree, one for the good news only posts so we can hear about the latest boring Wizz route to a place no one has heard of for supporters and spotters and this one that digs deeper and exposes what is really going on for those that want the full picture.

I live in hope that we can all tolerate views and opinions from those that that choose to post here for a more rounded view of Luton including positive and so called negative posts if that post is relevant to the airport.

pabely

29th Sep 2020, 12:47

The hotel forum of Luton has objected stating that there are already well over 3000 nightly beds available in the town and this is already unsustainable.
Must be better for the customer though keeping rates low?
Can't remember how many times I have paid over £100 at Gatwick (pre Covid) because everywhere else was full, for a few hours sleep!

Buster the Bear

29th Sep 2020, 21:42

LTNman

1st Oct 2020, 05:01

Must be better for the customer though keeping rates low?
Can't remember how many times I have paid over £100 at Gatwick (pre Covid) because everywhere else was full, for a few hours sleep!

£36 and £42 being displayed yesterday as I drove past.

The new hotel got passed by the Planning Committee last night that will be located in the car park of the Marriott Hotel. Also student accommodation blocks got planning permission to be converted into hotels sighting demand from an expanding airport. In reality the accommodation blocks will end up as accommodation for homeless families from London and homes for asylum seekers, which is already happening in the town.

The red building is the new hotel. The Marriott Hotel was built at lightening speed (or was it the second Ibis?) as the rooms were built in Poland complete with fixtures and fittings and assembled on site.

https://i.imgur.com/SvMl6Jg.jpg

Manx

2nd Oct 2020, 21:24

Looks like a few ostriches here are just spotters hoping for new route news. You can find that easily on the news wires.

I am a non resident of Luton. I am not a spotter. I embrace all the flow of Rumours and News about Luton and also contribute. Are we to see comments about airline management/governance outlawed on other sub forum? If you want to start a a new threat please title it Luton For Spotters on another area of this website please. I'll continue to contribute to this forum which is very enlightening. I also hope to watch from afar, as the muddle that LBC finds itself in slowly unfolds.

It's not about making a thread for "spotters" - nobody is asking about new planes, plane movements or whatever it is that floats their boat so that's incredibly wide of the mark. It's not even about suppressing criticism of the airport which would have been a better response as it looks like there is plenty to criticise.
It's about the exact same points of critcism being repeated and slipped into every other post even where they're not linked. Post criticism by all means, but ideally when it's new info otherwise it just kills this thread as it reads like a Daily Mail-style hate campaign. There's plenty of good content including the criticism, but its been getting drowned out.

boeing_eng

3rd Oct 2020, 11:39

LTNman

3rd Oct 2020, 21:24

While CAA passenger figures always come in higher than LLAOL figures due to the airport not counting infants, August is somewhat different.

820,000 = Airport figure https://mediahub.london-luton.co.uk/news/14092020/56-drop-in-august-passengers?ref=Home
622,035 = CAA figure, which is substantially lower.

So why would that be? Did the airport "cook" the figures in the past to keep them below 18m and are now including every possible passenger including business jet passengers to raise the figures for its press release? Even allowing for business jet passengers the difference is over 28% so who are they counting?

Buster the Bear

3rd Oct 2020, 21:25

Lee Baker Street

5th Oct 2020, 08:32

As an ex employee of the airport, the information must flow. Plenty of websites and other forum for spotters.

Ciao Fly for now!

Over the last couple of years I had suspicions that this forum was being hijacked by LibDems supporters. It was in a sense easy to conclude this when so many comments mirror that of a high profile local councillor.

I know because Frankly I have personally known that individual for decades!

I strongly suggest you political motivated individuals look for another forum that is more aligned to politics!

Wiedersehen

Afscheid

Au devour

Viszlat

SWBKCB

5th Oct 2020, 08:48

I would suggest that if politically motivated, somebody have a re-think. Obscure aviation forums ain't the best way of getting the message out...

avidspotter

5th Oct 2020, 08:50

Or possibly a genuine mistake?

While CAA passenger figures always come in higher than LLAOL figures due to the airport not counting infants, August is somewhat different.

820,000 = Airport figure https://mediahub.london-luton.co.uk/news/14092020/56-drop-in-august-passengers?ref=Home
622,035 = CAA figure, which is substantially lower.

So why would that be? Did the airport "cook" the figures in the past to keep them below 18m and are now including every possible passenger including business jet passengers to raise the figures for its press release? Even allowing for business jet passengers the difference is over 28% so who are they counting?

AirportPlanner1

5th Oct 2020, 09:34

Booked pax v those that showed up?

LTNman

5th Oct 2020, 10:49

Over the last couple of years I had suspicions that this forum was being hijacked by LibDems supporters. It was in a sense easy to conclude this when so many comments mirror that of a high profile local councillor.

I know because Frankly I have personally known that individual for decades!

I strongly suggest you political motivated individuals look for another forum that is more aligned to politics!

Wiedersehen

Afscheid

Au devour

Viszlat

That is why I say Council and don’t mention political parties of the Council. Out of interest all political groups have sat on the board of LLAL so are all tarred with the same brush although one grouping dropped out as they were being gagged by LLAL confidentiality rules. Confidentiality rules created to keep information away from the Council taxpayers.

When big spending plans were committed by LLAL, which has caused many of the problems, all 3 parties were represented on the board of Directors but as no minutes were published we don’t know if any party objected.

LTNman

5th Oct 2020, 10:51

Booked pax v those that showed up?

Good point. The airport only gets paid for the ones that turn up which the airlines keeping the airport fees and taxes.

LGS6753

5th Oct 2020, 16:47

Over the last few months, I would expect no-shows are on the high side, so the booked pax v actual pax debate may be more pertinent than usual.

MARK 101

6th Oct 2020, 15:20

Certainly at BHX , the Airport figures being quoted are a lot higher than actual figures. Have seen huge numbers of cancellations on Turkish routes in the last few days alone

LTNman

6th Oct 2020, 15:32

The official figures are out together with a breakdown of passenger types. 820,828 is indeed the figure so have the CAA got it wrong?

https://www.london-luton.co.uk/LondonLuton/files/b8/b863af59-c90a-4346-aa12-b13134fa61a5.pdf

Please note that these figures exclude infants and may differ from other published statistics.

BHX5DME

6th Oct 2020, 16:19

BHX figures are always in line with the CAA ones

Manx

8th Oct 2020, 04:43

Manx.....There is plenty to criticise when it comes to the current shenanigans between LLA and the Council. It needs fully exposing and occasionally there will be duplication of info. If it doesn't interest you then ignore the posts (but to imply an intolerance to a certain message content on a forum like this is basically censorship) I rarely post on the subject, but as a local resident and a 30+ year airport worker I feel very strongly about the current situation and the way its being handled by LBC!

Ok, so you agree with me that there's plenty to criticise. I'm interested to see what's going on at the airport. Nobody is suggesting censorship of any points, what a bizarre conclusion to have drawn. The point is that the specific point has already been made multiple times. When somebody posts a comment and then slips in an otherwise unrelated paragraph at the end of the post that just repeats that the council is doing X and the locals are impacted by Y but using a different order of words, what's that adding? I'm sure we all want to read more and see the issue exposed, but it's difficult to ignore so much frequent repetition of the same point - it becomes unreadable.

That approach is now starting to copied by somebody randomly throwing unrelated comments about "spotters" (I assume, they think that to not want repetition in debate is somehow the sign of being a spotter though I would have thought anyone spending days watching plane at Luton will be exposed to multiple easyJet and Wizz and so they're quite open to a bit of repetition). It's a bit like how political debate has now been reduced to people just labelling/dismissing others as 'left' or 'right' so they don't have to actually engage their brain in an adult conversation.

Anyway, apologies for derailing this thread further. I haven't worked into Luton for many a year but have been rather amazed at how much its visibly changed since the last time that I did. And if I can't see the wood for the trees in the content of the typed comments, the photo updates are nonetheless of real interest and I'll return just to check for those.

LTNman

8th Oct 2020, 05:00

I missed this report from June. Seems the new Luton Airport Express train service, which continues on to Corby has been put back until May 2021. It was meant to start in December.

https://www.harborough-rail.org.uk/h...ory/timetables (https://www.harborough-rail.org.uk/home/category/timetables)

Also noticed last week that the Dart trackbed now has a dedicated tracked two car yellow maintenance vehicle running on it that is being used for trackside work. The vehicle looks like a self powered trolly with a cab and trailer.

Other old Dart news that I don’t remember reporting regards the Council now becoming a transport operator.
Transport and Works Act Order

Construction of the Luton DART continues to make progress. LLAL is now submitting an application for a Transport and Works Act Order to the Department for Transport for its consideration.

This Order is seeking powers that will enable LLAL to safely and efficiently run the service after construction is complete. Examples of the powers being sought include – dealing with bad behaviour, working with the police, the ability to issue tickets and levy penalty fares, and prevention relating to bringing dangerous items onto the DART.

LLAL claim they have no staff with the Council providing the management for LLAL. Does this mean this will change next year with LLAL employing staff directly? I don’t think so.

Does it mean the Council will provide the staff? Again unlikely.

Will the existing Thameslink staff operating the shuttle bus be subject to a Tupe? Don’t know.

Will LLAL put out the staff required to tender so it is staffed by a third party company? Very likely, so expect more zero hour minimum wage contracts at the airport, as the work will go out to the bidder with the lowest staff costs.

pabely

8th Oct 2020, 11:56

CAPA reporting today London Luton Airport launches consultation on changes to annual passenger capacityBehind paid firewall so cannot see detail. The +18M pax limit I assume.

SKOJB

8th Oct 2020, 12:06

CAPA reporting todayLondon Luton Airport launches consultation on changes to annual passenger capacityBehind paid firewall so cannot see detail. The +18M pax limit I assume.

Wouldn’t think this relevant or worthwhile at present!

davidjohnson6

8th Oct 2020, 12:34

LGS6753

8th Oct 2020, 12:41

This is exactly the time to try to raise the capacity limit. Apart from the most emphatic of protesters, most locals will give this less attention than they would otherwise, thinking that more flights won't happen for years and thus not worth getting involved in the fight
Agreed. When the public is looking the other way, they are less likely to object vociferously.

LTNman

8th Oct 2020, 13:13

Let’s make one thing clear, it doesn’t matter if the entire population of the UK wrote in and objected it would still get passed, which makes the so called consultation a total farce and an affront to the democratic process. The Council has already publicly stated they want 32 million passengers so this is just part of that process, which the Council will decide themselves.

Supporters and objectors alike should just do nothing, as writing in will make no difference to the outcome. I can even tell you now how the vote will go, even down to the actual votes and who will vote for and against.

southside bobby

8th Oct 2020, 14:02

Manoeuvres in the dark of course.

Luton Council attempting to add paper value to the real estate...(as with most airports in the South)

Perhaps will take more though to escape the financial & legal quagmire the airport is in.

Without having to rehearse all the reasonings again if the proposal is for 32m the decision making process will/would be taken out of Council hands.

LTNman

8th Oct 2020, 15:14

The consultation and application is being put in by the airport operator ( LLAOL) and not the airport owner (LLAL) but have no doubt who is pulling the strings.

I have had a 2 minute read and found this bizarre claim.

Our proposals to increase passenger numbers to 19mppa will not require any physical development. It will be achieved through operational changes such as updates to flight schedules and noise contours at the airport

So they don't intend to provide any extra overnight stands? Let's remember that in normal times there are no spare stands and LLAOL have already announced plans to build another 6 pack apron and alter the run up bay for 2 extra stands. Regarding the overcrowded terminal, which is often standing room only, I have seen the outline plans for a terminal extension running at a 45 degree angle at the front of the terminal and have published them here I think last year.

Honesty is something that doesn't comes easy at Luton, as there will be two more applications to increase the total to either 22million or 22.5 million passengers, as that is the latest calculation that has been made as the true capacity of the CTA. Remember that 12m, 16m and 18m have already been stated as the airports maximum capacity within its existing boundary. The increases are being calculated by reducing the passenger comfort level with extreme amounts of overcrowding planned. The terminal extension is very modest, as the bus station will not be moved. It will add a few more check-in desks but I have not seen any plans to add baggage belts or increase the immigration hall, which are located at the back of the terminal. If the statement about no physical development is true then the terminal extension will go in at around 20m with the airport drip feeding modest applications to avoid a possible DCO for the CTA so they can approve their own applications.

southside bobby

8th Oct 2020, 16:23

My own conjecture was based on the previously mentioned figure of 32mppa.
The above then is a very modest squeezing of facilities or more evidently of the passengers.

pabely

8th Oct 2020, 16:41

32mppa is with T2, 22.5mppa is still only using existing T1

southside bobby

8th Oct 2020, 17:00

32mppa/T2 a distant planning & pre Covid dream.
T1 ? being THE terminal then with a modest squeeze excepting perhaps a larger one on the suffering customer.

LTNman

8th Oct 2020, 17:02

Only expansion outside the boundary will be part of the DCO excluding the dual carriageway to a second terminal, which was sneaked in via an unrelated application by LLAL and will be funded directly by the Council and not LLAL except they have no money. As can be seen some applications come from the concessionaire (LLAOL) while others come via the airport owner (LLAL). As I said a few posts back all three, including the Council, are as thick as thieves.

32mppa/T2 a distant planning & pre Covid dream

Even that figure is BS as the true figure is 36m and always has been. It was only reduced to save the cost of upgrading the M1. If they get planning permission for 32m they will eventually put in an application to bring it back to 36m so avoiding a bill for the M1.

southside bobby

8th Oct 2020, 17:12

"When the tide goes out"...as Mr Buffet famously said.

Perhaps the whole shebang is in great danger of being caught out financially & politically now the good times are over.

LTNman

9th Oct 2020, 05:05

Ok I have made a mistake in my claim that the airports true figure was 36 million passengers and not 32 million so I apologise. It was actually up to 38 million as LLAL forgot to remove this old press release.

https://www.llal.org.uk/press-release.html

Under the London Luton Airport (LTN) Vision for Sustainable Growth 2020-2050, passenger capacity would go from 18 million to 36-38 mppa

southside bobby

9th Oct 2020, 07:41

Chuckles...

boeing_eng

9th Oct 2020, 21:19

LTNman

10th Oct 2020, 00:11

Perhaps the whole shebang is in great danger of being caught out financially & politically now the good times are over.

We can only hope!....scrutiny isn't a word LLAL & LBC even come close to understanding!

There is an outstanding complaint to the Information Commissioners Office that the Council is refusing to answer Freedom of Information Requests about whether the Council followed key legal principles regarding the Dart, as it is a significant project that needs to satisfy HM Treasury Business Case guidelines including the Commercial Case, Strategic Case, Economic Case, Financial Case and Management Case.

For some strange reason they are refusing to answer the question stating it is confidential so yet another secret is being kept from the Council taxpayers. Now why would that be? The suspicion is that it doesn’t meet the requirements and they don’t want to admit it.

Spanish eyes

10th Oct 2020, 06:12

to satisfy HM Treasury Business Case guidelines including the Commercial Case, Strategic Case, Economic Case, Financial Case and Management Case.

Interesting stuff. If the council are forced to answer the questions it should make for interesting answers.

Looking back on old posts brings up the following points (sorry Manx):

Up front costs of existing service to the council. £0
Up front costs of Dart service to the council £243m

Running costs of existing service to the council £0
Running costs of Dart service to the council £££

Terminal capacity of Luton Airport without Dart service. 18m passengers.
Terminal capacity of Luton Airport with Dart service. 18m passengers.

Average existing travel time. 6 minutes
Average published Dart travel time. 5 minutes

Cost per second for each second saved. £4m

Reasons to build. To help DCO application. Could be needed one day subject to DCO approval so worth a gamble it will be approved. To remove building costs burden for the new airport operator for the first stage to the existing terminal if a second terminal was approved. To improve passenger perceptions before arriving at overcrowded terminal which could lead to a zero passenger gain based on 2019 passenger levels.

I can see the reluctance of answering the FoIR. I am sure there are positive reasons to build including our excitement here but would it meet HM Treasury requirements?

pabely

10th Oct 2020, 09:25

Luton 19mppa Consultation - Home (http://www.luton19mppa.info/)
Just to enable EZY to switch 319s to 320 and WUK 320s to 321 without breaching 18M limits and good times come back, asumming no capacity loss to the likes of LGW with now Norwegian added to the list of casualties their. My thoughts, are Red Nose giving up or selling their LGW slots?

As others have said, the jumps to 20.5 - 22M mppa will need at least the NE 6 pack and terminal extensions in place.

Gulfstreamaviator

10th Oct 2020, 14:09

Greetings all. With the sad demise of Monarch Engineering, which Boeing/Airbus MROs are still on the field? Cheers!

LTNman

10th Oct 2020, 15:34

Deception and lies come to mind. Why can't the application for 19m just be honest, as even if it was honest it would still be passed by the planning committee who know what is expected of them by their Council masters? Why are they putting in applications at 1m at a time and not just put an application in for 22.5m when even an application for 22.5m would still be passed, as that is below the Councils aim of 38m?

Growth in passenger numbers to 19mppa will result in an increase in the number of daytime flights on peak days but will not increase the number of night-time flights.
We are proposing to modify the wording of Condition 10 to amend the day and night noise contour until the end of 2027
As we all know, night flights have been reduced in the summer period, as it breached the night noise contour lines. The application to increase the noise contour lines is so that both day and night flights can be increased so removing the ban on business jets and other one off flights at night.

Our Responsible Business Plan ensures we are transparent
One thing LLAOL/LLAL/Council is not and that is transparent.

To realise our ambitions we must gain approval from the local planning authority.
Luton Council, as the local planning authority, will decide whether to grant permission for the proposals,
What they mean is that the airport owner will decide the application. Conflict of interest seeing the Council has never ever turned an application down involving expanding the airport. I would think Heathrow and Gatwick would love it if their owners could approve planning applications.

Before we seek this approval, we are holding a consultation to provide an opportunity for you to have your say and shape our plans.
Which will not make any difference.

Our proposals to increase passenger numbers to 19mppa will not require any physical development
Yet they have announced separate plans last year to build a new apron, which was delayed due to Covid. They have already claimed this new apron is part of the old proposal to expand the airport to 18m but was never built. This means they will build it but will claim it is not required for 19m so can't be classed as new physical development. Well I have a full set of plans for that application and this proposed apron is not on it.

Spot the missing apron. The only missing development that was never built is the area in red as this was the final phase for 18 million. This new missing apron is required for 19m, we all know that here but Jo Public doesn't. As I said at the top of the post, lies and deception and all in an attempt to reduce the numbers replying to the consultation. Why they think they need to do this is a mystery when any plan will be passed but there is a mind set at the airport that has deep roots.
https://i.imgur.com/cSQ9Bfy.jpg

boeing_eng

10th Oct 2020, 21:22

Greetings all. With the sad demise of Monarch Engineering, which Boeing/Airbus MROs are still on the field? Cheers!

Boeing 737/757/767/787 - TUI H61 (heavy checks) - No third party
Airbus narrow body - EZY H89 (minor checks only) - No third party

Wizz - Storm Aviation (Line only)
Ryanair - (Line only)

LTNman

10th Oct 2020, 21:46

Looks like EL AL resumes Luton operations on March 1st 2021

pabely

11th Oct 2020, 22:29

Yet they have announced separate plans last year to build a new apron, which was delayed due to Covid. They have already claimed this new apron is part of the old proposal to expand the airport to 18m but was never built. This means they will build it but will claim it is not required for 19m so can't be classed as new physical development. Well I have a full set of plans for that application and this proposed apron is not on it.

Looking at the Planning Portal they were no longer including the Signature stands 16/17/80/81 for airlines so the new 6 pack is actually no extra overnight capacity so has no link to the 19mppa.
Anyhow it is all history as it was approved so can be actioned upon when needed.

LTNman

12th Oct 2020, 08:10

pabely
Yes I know where you are coming from, as LLAOL used the same reasoning in the past to justify the new apron.

The best way to think about it is that someone builds a 5 bedroom house but decides to use a bedroom as a study, as it isn't needed as a bedroom. Later the owners decide they now do need 5 bedrooms but want to keep the study. As they already had planning permission to build a 5 bedroom house they just build an extension to give them back 5 bedrooms but without applying for new planning permission.

Now substitute 5 bedrooms for 5 aprons and LLAOL now want a 6th. LLAOL plan to build a new apron to give them a capacity of 18 million passengers except they already have that capacity but then claim it is not needed for 19 million passengers.

As for the owners of the house they now have a 6 bedroom house but claim it only has 5 bedrooms.

The statement that there will be no physical changes is wrong. As I keep saying lies and deception in my opinion, which isn't needed, as a blank piece of paper would be passed by the planners at Luton because they are not willing to say no to any airport planning application.

As for the new apron, it hasn't been approved, as it doesn't need planning permission, even though it has never shown up on any plans submitted to planning to build it.

pabely

12th Oct 2020, 17:46

pabely
As for the new apron, it hasn't been approved, as it doesn't need planning permission, even though it has never shown up on any plans submitted to planning to build it.

LTNman Check out Planning application 19/01683/GPDOPD - supporting documents STAND PROVISION FUTURE LAYOUT vs STAND PROVISION EXISTING LAYOUT
Plans are in the public domain but in the top right hand corner of each PDF it does state total Stand counts rising from 43 to 47! I put this down to the loss of stands 16/17/80/81 which would have been -4

LTNman

12th Oct 2020, 20:45

It still doesn't need planning permission, as per the case officers report so won't be applied for.

Part 8 of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015 (as amended) namely being development on operational land, by a relevant airport operator (or its agent), in connection with the provision of services and facilities at a relevant airport. As such the proposal is permitted development and the Council has no objection.

The question to consider is are the proposed 8 new stands needed for expansion above 18 million or are they maintaining the status quo seeing that stands 80 and 81 have never been Code C stands and only 3 Code C stands from 16/17 will be taken over by Signature and moved to the east of taxiway Foxtrot. The airport will still end up with 5 new stands.

Lee Baker Street

14th Oct 2020, 01:37

This is exactly the time to try to raise the capacity limit. Apart from the most emphatic of protesters, most locals will give this less attention than they would otherwise, thinking that more flights won't happen for years and thus not worth getting involved in the fight

”Not worth getting involved in the fight.”

It appears to me that all the constant negative comments in this forum are due to this forum having been taken over by activists!

LTNman

14th Oct 2020, 04:50

Lee Baker Street.

I hear LLAL have sent you another personal letter wanting details about who owns your house. Did you reply or ignore? Could I suggest that this should be of a concern for you as only certain areas and people considered special have been targeted and there is a reason for that.

There are no activists on this forum just supporters. Legitimate issues and questions are raised, as they deserve answers. Whether people here like the questions, the often healthy debate and even the answers is another question. I accept you are not one that likes some posts and there will be others that have the same views.

All large public facing organisations run propaganda machines while suppressing information. LLAL/LLAOL/LBC are no different, as all three like to control the agenda. This forum can sometimes give an alternative view, which folk here are free to ignore.

boeing_eng

14th Oct 2020, 18:07

Lee Baker Street...In the last week or so you have accused those who are critical of the current financial situation between LLAL & LBC as being both Liberal Democrat supporters and activists! I am am neither and instead have always 100% supported of the airport which has provided me with a long term decent job.

Rather than resorting to name-calling because you don't like the narrative, why don't you put forward some reasoned arguments in support of the current stance that is being adopted by by LBC & LLAL so we can debate the issues. Clearly, Covid has had a dramatic effect on the whole industry but it has also exposed in all its gory detail the financial transactions that LBC would definitely prefer its local residents are kept in the dark about! Why is that?.....unfortunately the expand at any cost argument just doesn't stack up any more! (not that it ever did!)

Buster the Bear

14th Oct 2020, 22:14

LTNman

15th Oct 2020, 04:45

The CAA have confirmed that the airport told them that 622,035 passed though Luton in August despite LLAOL claiming that the actual figure was 820,828. CAA figures are always higher than LLAOL figures due to the inclusion of infants so this is a first. Seeing the LLAOL figures are quite detailed it seems strange that such a precise incorrect figure was sent to the CAA.

i will have a definitive answer next month as to what has happened.

LTNman

15th Oct 2020, 05:07

19m passengers, by 2030? This winter will see annihilation of the aviation sector in the northern hemisphere. Covid-19 surfaced at back end of last winter. Covid-19 loves the cold, so what we have seen March-October are the foundations of numerous future airline failures, more downsizing and airports finally giving up and closing for good. Even when a vaccine is available, it might need boosters every 6 months. Bookmark this page and see if Buster and his Crystal Ball foretold the future correctly? I'll also wager that LBC are taken into 'Special Measures?'

I suspect the application by the concessionaire (LLAOL) is being pushed by the airport owner (LLAL) so it can be banked even through LLAOL might never see the day when it is needed before the concession runs out.

LLAOL have yet to build the missing taxiway by runway 25 to increase the runway capacity and need a new apron for 19 million. Both projects are on indefinite delay so with the ticking clock on having to hand the airport back, the time to get their money back on future projects is decreasing by the day.

GrahamK

16th Oct 2020, 12:34

Got to say, used LTN for the first time this week, arrived from GLA wed night, departing back there shortly, and the experience has been great. Seamless transfer to Parkway Station and through security in less than 2 mins at 1pm on a Friday.
A lot of cleaners to be seen too, well done!:ok:

southside bobby

16th Oct 2020, 13:10

LTN pax traffic 575,000 in September marking a drop of 66%.

LTNman

16th Oct 2020, 14:59

I wonder what figures will be sent to the CAA as either passengers are 50,000 down on August of down around 250,000.

pabely

16th Oct 2020, 19:37

With Marshall Aerospace and Defence Group group moving to Cranfield do we think there will be a spin-off benefits for Luton Airport?

CAP A330

17th Oct 2020, 10:00

Tui will be restarting some flight again end of this month , ACE TFS and from December, INN.

Flew out of LTN a few days ago, it was a pleasant experience. Security was a breeze (less than 3 mins all in, unlike the airport at the other end), masks on for everyone, plane was probably 30-40% full so plenty of space to move around in case someone sat next to you (with permission of course).

On the way back passport control was quick too. Out of airport in record time.

inOban

17th Oct 2020, 10:57

The trouble is that 30-40% load factors are not economically sustainable.

LTNman

18th Oct 2020, 13:51

There are 3 stages to the Dart Parkway interchange. Stage 1 is the main Dart building. Stage 2a is the new passenger footbridge across the existing railway platforms, which is a Network Rail project. Stage 2b is the addition of 2 "parasol" roof sections, which again will be built by Network Rail. The contractor is hopeful that stage 2 will be complete when the Dart commences operations in the summer but stage 1 allows for the connection of the existing footbridge to the Dart station if Network Rail are slow to deliver Stage 2

https://i.imgur.com/11sGlBW.png

The ceiling when it was under construction with the Dart tracks in the distance.
https://i.imgur.com/wRbIQW9.jpg

The parasol ceiling is now almost complete.
https://i.imgur.com/pvigjpa.jpg

The photo shows the existing footbridge, which can be connected to the Dart station if Stage 2 is not completed in time with a glimpse of the new footbridge on the right. I am not sure if a permanent connection will be made to the existing footbridge if Stage 2 is finished on time.
https://i.imgur.com/iOQv5Xh.jpg

Work continues on the Gateway Bridge, as viewed heading from the airport
https://i.imgur.com/m237s0U.jpg

One of the two tracks with an emergency track side walkway. Careful examinations shows 2 of the pulley wheels that will guide the cable that pulls the Dart. Note this photo is a little out of date.
https://i.imgur.com/mRNaydn.jpg

Central Station now has more of the roof metalwork in place.
https://i.imgur.com/y7qaNPe.jpg

pabely

19th Oct 2020, 11:22

A few changes to W6/W9 shedules around 15/16 Nov, not a great increase but does show a little more capacity being added.

Spanish eyes

19th Oct 2020, 12:17

pabely

19th Oct 2020, 20:42

Could say that about any airline or airport...

Meanwhile, moving holding patterns https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-54572593

22/04

20th Oct 2020, 12:34

Not so much moving them as giving Luton one of its very own.

southside bobby

20th Oct 2020, 13:33

...& even more about separating LTN & STN holding patterns/traffic providing enhanced safety & a more streamlined continuous flow into both.

Buster the Bear

21st Oct 2020, 00:09

terrain safe

21st Oct 2020, 20:27

Where that hold is proposed conflicts with EGBB/EGNX arrivals and departures. EGSS CPT and northbound deps. City and Heathrow departures to the north. No description of the PBN arrival routes either in geographical terms. I thought at first, that it was a school project. I am sure Mildenhall and Lakenheath are happy.

EGSS doesn't have CPT departures. NUGBO is the one, changed about 5 years ago, and won't be affected while UTAVAs will probably jump it. Mildenhall and Lakenheath aren't affected as they will still go via LOREL and so don't get involved. Heathrow again no issue.

LTNman

22nd Oct 2020, 09:59

Confirmed that Luton's August passenger figures were indeed 835,000. Luton was saved by Eastern Europe with very high passenger loads. Polish airports up to 92%, Bulgarian airports up to 86%, Romania 88% while Spain was as low as 19% (Palma). Busiest route I can see was Bucharest at 8 flights a day with 37,636 passengers on 236 flights with a load of 88%. Even Albania, which isn't even in the EU had a load factor of 80%

pabely

22nd Oct 2020, 11:28

With Wizzair stats on the web about Luton being it's most profitable base and Romania there best route profit wise, I can see why Blue Air stick around but for how long, Wizzair could afford to slash prices and drive Blue Air off their routes or is there good yield for both?

pabely

22nd Oct 2020, 11:29

LTNman

22nd Oct 2020, 14:18

Only being 66% down for the month vs 2019 actually looks good when compared with other airports!

56% actually for August.

inOban

22nd Oct 2020, 14:43

Presumably the East European numbers are falling as the seasoned workers return home?

southside bobby

22nd Oct 2020, 15:51

Numbers...
Press release from the CEO Alberto Martin quoted 575,000 passengers for September down 66% stating "although we saw some recovery in passengers in the Summer numbers are beginning to tumble once again".

wallp

25th Oct 2020, 10:24

What are TUI's plans at Luton moving forward? I see there are some TUI holidays to book this winter and next summer with flights from Luton

boeing_eng

25th Oct 2020, 10:47

LTNman

25th Oct 2020, 11:19

I said pre Covid that I heard from someone at TUI HQ that they were closing their Luton base, which understandably didn’t go down too well so don’t shoot the messenger. I don’t think anyone can dispute the base has been in decline for years.

ROC10

25th Oct 2020, 11:23

Without being fully in the know, its impossible to predict what TUI's intentions are when it comes to LTN. Bear in mind that LTN was the only UK TUI base which did not re-start flying in July and pre-Covid only 1 x 737-800 was due to based at LTN this Summer anyway!

Ironically, the first TUI passenger flight since the March shutdown departed this morning with G-FDZD operating to ACE

Not true, flights didn’t restart from EDI, ABZ, NWI or BFS. Albeit, the latter three are normally only summer bases but ABZ and NWI do have occasional flights in winter, not too many fewer than LTN which has hardly even been a base in winter in recent years.

wallp

25th Oct 2020, 12:47

If Wizz get the big expansion they want at Gatwick, could that risk the Luton operation scaling back a bit?

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-8875147/No-frills-airline-Wizz-Air-plots-swoop-1-5-Gatwick-flights.html?fbclid=IwAR24UGE1nROaQtYF7kuHdP_0P-rnbQz-YXzBW6tqUWYngDo11VjCD7Sd31g

boeing_eng

25th Oct 2020, 12:56

Not true, flights didn’t restart from EDI, ABZ, NWI or BFS. Albeit, the latter three are normally only summer bases but ABZ and NWI do have occasional flights in winter, not too many fewer than LTN which has hardly even been a base in winter in recent years.

To clarify, LTN was the only year round fully crewed UK base that did not re-start in July.......EDI, ABZ, NWI and BFS are all normally operated by seconded Sunwing aircraft in the Summer (but with Covid this clearly was not going to happen anyway!)

Management are denying a full base closure is on the cards but in reality anything is possible! The decline in TUI ops at LTN seemed to coincide with reports of many passengers complaining about the poor terminal experience a few years back when there was also huge queues of cars trying to access the drop off area. Since then, TUI have constantly increased the number of holidays using EZY from LTN (which seems now to be the preferred option)

ROC10

25th Oct 2020, 13:02

Not true, flights didn’t restart from EDI, ABZ, NWI or BFS. Albeit, the latter three are normally only summer bases but ABZ and NWI do have occasional flights in winter, not too many fewer than LTN which has hardly even been a base in winter in recent years.

To clarify, LTN was the only year round fully crewed UK base that did not re-start in July.......EDI, ABZ, NWI and BFS are all normally operated by seconded Sunwing aircraft in the Summer (but with Covid this clearly was not going to happen anyway!)

The decline in TUI ops at LTN seemed to coincide with reports of many passengers complaining about the poor terminal experience a few years back when there was also huge queues of cars trying to access the drop off area. Since then, TUI have constantly increased the number of holidays using EZY from LTN (which seems now to be the preferred option)
EDI is normally a fully-crewed year-round base with a based TUI (not Sunwing) aircraft and often has more weekly flights in winter than LTN, with a similar amount in summer. And yes, as I mentioned, the other three are summer-only bases which usually use Sunwing aircraft (ABZ has had TUI in the past). But yes, as you say the LTN base has certainly shrunk significantly over the last few years, although it is still TUI’s official HQ.

pabely

25th Oct 2020, 13:03

pabely

25th Oct 2020, 13:30

Ironically, the first TUI passenger flight since the March shutdown departed this morning with G-FDZD operating to ACE
When is the next Tui departure from Luton, next Sunday?

boeing_eng

25th Oct 2020, 14:00

When is the next Tui departure from Luton, next Sunday?

Its impossible to be 100% sure as things are constantly changing with flights being amalgamated etc....It seems November should have a weekly TFS flight on Fridays but a lot will depend on demand and obviously the Canaries staying off the quarantine list.

ROC10 - your obsessional interest with TUI never fails to impress but I think its safe to say that LTN is now not a priority base and the fact that it remains the HQ clearly makes no difference!

southside bobby

25th Oct 2020, 15:20

As above WZZ now increase to 11 routes ex LGW.

LTNman

25th Oct 2020, 15:59

Can see some of the old 4x daily routes being scaled back but that would free up aircraft & slots for other opportunities.

With Luton lucky to handle 6 million passengers this year and the Council already agreeing to bail out the airport next year I don’t see there being a long queue.

pabely

25th Oct 2020, 17:39

Wizzair might suprise you, publicly stated that this crisis is an opportunity, even if they scoop up some more slots at LGW they would not give up their #1 position at LUT, their most profitable base and routes.

LTNman

25th Oct 2020, 20:48

Lee Baker Street

26th Oct 2020, 10:26

Shhh, no one is meant to know this so you didn’t hear this from me but the Dart, which was meant to open in the spring of 2021, that became the summer of 2021 and is now just 2021, should now open in around a year’s time, give or take a month.

Thanks for the update but are you correct? Lets rewind a few years when I said the airport was going to expand east and you implied I was wrong. Well I have another prediction but SHHH you never heard it from me: 01 10 00 01 11 11 01 11 !

LTNman

26th Oct 2020, 12:29

Thanks for the update but are you correct? Lets rewind a few years when I said the airport was going to expand east and you implied I was wrong. Well I have another prediction but SHHH you never heard it from me: 01 10 00 01 11 11 01 (tel:01 10 00 01 11 11 01) 11 !

Make a note in your diary of that Dart delay post then so you can savage me next summer while quoting my post.

Also I think you will find I said that LLAL would not build aprons on Wigmore Park, which is what I was told by planning due to the Council tip sitting underneath it but I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong. Wigmore was always a prime contender for airport expansion.

My post from 12th May 2017

A new apron could be built on the eastern side of the short term car park after the second multistory is built but the real issue will always be the size of the terminal which would be hard to add further capacity to.

Meanwhile you still haven’t said if you have posted off your reply to LLAL informing them who owns the land your home sits on, as they want an update to their blighted home list.

Constructor

26th Oct 2020, 15:37

Provided you get the design right there is no reason why an apron cannot be built on a council tip. IMO that is.

southside bobby

26th Oct 2020, 16:02

La Guardia NYC built on landfill from a municipal garbage dump back in the day albeit with a metal reinforcing framework that interferes with aircraft compasses on taxy out.:eek:

LTNman

26th Oct 2020, 16:06

Yes I have no doubt I was fed bs from the planning officer at the council. In those days I still didn’t know how dishonest they could be. Terminal 2 on piles but the aprons are within the existing boundary according to LLAL. Saying that the plan is to dig out the tip which is up to 20m deep.

Constructor

26th Oct 2020, 17:49

The choice between the dig out and dispose off site or construct the apron ,with an appropriate design, would probably be commercial. A cost comparison between the two options would be needed.

pabely

26th Oct 2020, 19:52

Spanish eyes what's your take on what is happening in town, let allown the airport in social distancing? Taxi anyone?

LTNman

26th Oct 2020, 20:08

The choice between the dig out and dispose off site or construct the apron ,with an appropriate design, would probably be commercial. A cost comparison between the two options would be needed.

The consultation says they will dig it all out and process the waste on site. The really nasty stuff will be taken away. This was the last time they dug into the unregulated waste tip on the local park. The tip was capped with a 1metre clay layer which has done a great job. Maybe the plan is to transport the toxic waste to Lee Baker Street’s back garden, which is why LLAL have taken an interest in his property?

https://i.imgur.com/hXw98R9.jpg

Spanish eyes

26th Oct 2020, 20:34

Spanish eyes what's your take on what is happening in town, let allown the airport in social distancing? Taxi anyone?

Don’t try and wind me up. For those that don’t know, Luton has an issue with one community that seems to have an issue with Covid rules. First it was the mayor and two councillors attending a Covid party when it was banned. Now it is an issue at a religious establishment that only came to light after a major punch up involving 250 people.

I often look through the multi faith room at the terminal which is meant to be for all religions but caters for just one as there are no chairs but only prayer mats and somewhere to wash ones feet. No social distancing in there either but at least they are all facing the same direction. And no I would not catch a Luton Airport taxi.

https://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/people/chaos-luton-mosque-disorder-breaks-out-over-250-people-3015255

Spanish eyes

26th Oct 2020, 20:42

Actually it is no worse than baggage reclaim. Maybe the video is fake and was actually filmed in the baggage hall?

Sorry this was the only link I could find that is linked to the above story. I hope people won’t take offence as the link is provided as information only.
https://youtu.be/2T14ZmKWAkQ

CAP A330

27th Oct 2020, 08:56

Wizz, like other Luton airlines need passengers who are prepared to travel against government advice which is not good as I doubt many will bother to quarantine. I would say they are acting against the national interest as they try to undermine the message.
Wizz are keeping a lot of people in jobs at LTN, unlike easy “we won’t survive 21” Jet
easy “give me government bail out” Jet
easy “ 4500 redundancies on the cards” Jet

everyone on this thread knows your prejudice against Wizz, Eastern Europeans, and Muslims.

compton3bravo

29th Oct 2020, 11:27

I see that DHL have increased there flights from Luton at the start of the winter timetable after their summer sojourn to Heathrow.

davidjohnson6

29th Oct 2020, 15:50

Wizz to start routes to Funchal/Madeira and Gibraltar in mid-December

LGS6753

29th Oct 2020, 16:49

Wizz are strengthening their base at Cluj (Romania), including an increase in flights to LTN from 14 to 18 per week.

LTNman

29th Oct 2020, 17:53

Clearly Wizz thinks the numbers from Romania will continue to increase despite travel restrictions from January 1st.

Easyjet traditionally doesn’t operate Gibraltar flights from Luton in the peak summer months so will they abandon the summer months to Wizz?

TBSC

30th Oct 2020, 08:45

Blue Air's Bucharest flights will be operated from Heathrow instead of Luton from December.

AirportPlanner1

30th Oct 2020, 08:46

Blue Air is ending Bucharest at the end of November and moving it to....Heathrow! Pretty extraordinary

LGS6753

30th Oct 2020, 09:45

Blue Air is ending Bucharest at the end of November and moving it to....Heathrow! Pretty extraordinary
So it won't be a low-cost route and Wizz will win a larger share of the London-Bucharest market.

LTNman

30th Oct 2020, 11:42

No connections vs worldwide connections when the world starts to get back to normal.

gilesdavies

30th Oct 2020, 12:14

Blue Air is ending Bucharest at the end of November and moving it to....Heathrow! Pretty extraordinary

It could be a temporary move, while other airlines are not using their slots at Heathrow, maybe the airport is able to offer temporary deals?

China Airlines moved their Gatwick to Taipei (in Taiwan) operations to Heathrow and say they will move back to Gatwick after a few months and then they continue to temporarily extend the Heathrow ops by another few months. Seems as long as the epidemic continues and China Airlines can get the slots into Heathrow they will continue.

I doubt Blue Air has the big money to purchase slots once things get back to normal.

SWBKCB

30th Oct 2020, 13:16

Suppose it all depends on how long things take to get back to normal. Can't sit on slots indefinetly and not use them.

pabely

30th Oct 2020, 13:34

I doubt Blue Air has the big money to purchase slots once things get back to normal.
Do they need to lease slots from someone else or can anyone now apply for temp LHR slots?

LTNman

30th Oct 2020, 16:18

So for Christmas Luton will be down to just 3 airlines operating through the terminal. Hasn’t been like that since the early 60’s

JW95

30th Oct 2020, 19:42

Blue Air is ending Bucharest at the end of November and moving it to....Heathrow! Pretty extraordinary
A very interesting move. I suppose it makes sense with W6 covering LTN, SEN and LGW and FR serving STN and SEN. LHR will be unique in that Blue Air will hold the advantage of lower fares over BA and Tarom on the same route. Will be interesting to see how this will affect Blue Air's future at LTN. No doubt W6 will increase LTN-OTP over time in place of Blue Air's withdrawal, but I wonder if Blue Air might shift more of it's remaining routes (Bacau, Cluj and Iasi) to LHR and abandon LTN completely? All three are currently in direct completion with Wizz who could easily raise frequency.

pabely

30th Oct 2020, 20:13

Time will tell on whether this is a smart move by Blue Air, with no transfer agreements this could be a big cash burn whatever LHR have offered.

Buster the Bear

30th Oct 2020, 23:59

If the Romanian Govt don't bail out a private company, it is immaterial.

LTNman

31st Oct 2020, 21:12

No connections vs worldwide connections when the world starts to get back to normal.

Confirmed they are after worldwide connections. They also mention better connections into London

”Heathrow is not only a preferred and more convenient option for London travelers, but also one of the most important intercontinental hubs for Europe. Blue Air intends to partner with several Heathrow carriers to enrich the connectivity for Romanian customers worldwide," he added.

https://www.romania-insider.com/romanian-blue-air-bucharest-london-heathrow

LTNman

1st Nov 2020, 11:00

Doppelmayl, who are the manufacture of the Dart trains have now confirmed that the Dart will open in the Autumn of 2021, which is some 6 months later than originally planned. The Dart will travel at 31.3mph and will take 3 minutes 45 seconds to complete each journey. The Dart will spend 45 seconds at each station before it departs. Despite the total time coming to 4 minutes 30 seconds the manufacture states that the trains can run every 4 minutes at peak times which indicates that there could well be longer gaps or single train running during the quieter times. Each train will consist of 4 cars with a capacity of 170 passengers per train. The peak delivery will be 2,700 passengers per hour.

The first vehicle to run on the Dart route shown on the viaduct.
https://i.imgur.com/7Pzcgpt.jpg

The route crosses the bridge, which is seen in the background, before passing alongside the approach lights.
https://i.imgur.com/Z6m27l9.jpg

The Dart then passes through the approach lights. For most of the route passengers will see very little of the airport due to the tunnel and long cutting.
https://i.imgur.com/aWpwwUA.jpg

Meanwhile back at Parkway the existing passenger footbridge can be seen. This can connect to the Dart station and will be used if the new footbridge does not open on time.
https://i.imgur.com/DpimuNI.jpg

Mr Optimistic

1st Nov 2020, 15:21

31.3 mph? Do I smell a metric conversion?

LTNman

1st Nov 2020, 15:48

You do indeed as 31.3mph is in brackets. The unconverted figure given is 50.4 km/h, which is another strange figure. The maximum incline is 5%, which is the maximum the cable haul system can cope with at Luton. This might explain why the route starts on a viaduct and ends up in a tunnel to reduce the incline?

Another strange figure is 170 passengers per train as that means 42.5 passengers can be carried in each carriage. Does than mean that the 2 outer cars are a different size to the 2 inner cars?

They also give the length of the track as 2080m long yet everywhere else it is quoted as 2200m. From memory Luton’s runway is 2160m long which almosts splits the difference.

crunchynutter

3rd Nov 2020, 15:45

As usual great pics LTNMAN.
3mins 45secs at 31.3mph delivering 2700 pax per hour.
Think we will be lucky to see that number of passengers in the whole of next week.
Quiet times ahead again

southside bobby

3rd Nov 2020, 17:44

An LA based private equity fund has approached AMP a part investor in LTN/NCL & LBA with a preliminary offer.

In the case of LTN it covers the AMP 49% holding.

pabely

3rd Nov 2020, 18:58

As it was behind a paid firewall I couldn't make out whether the approach was just for the Airport Management part of AMP (headed by Graeme Ferguson ex MAG Group) or for AMP full stop!?
- found the answer in Oz pressAMP have announced that they have received an offer for 100% share buyout from US investment management firm Ares.

LTNman

3rd Nov 2020, 19:48

Just over 10 years left on the concession with the airport making major losses. In 2031 the concessionaire walks away with nothing so it must be other parts of the portfolio that is attractive as they don't even have a voting majority at Luton.

LTNman

3rd Nov 2020, 20:52

Seems that LLAL are now looking at the Dart not opening until the beginning of 2022. Also LLAOL are predicting that Luton will bounce back first and are in a good place to recover lost ground although they don’t think the airport will be maxed out to 18 million until around 2023.

Buster the Bear

4th Nov 2020, 00:04

If you can’t pay, we’ll take it off the Luton residents, asset strip and make a home for a flying club.

LTNman

4th Nov 2020, 04:54

Regarding the possibility of a start of 2022 opening date for the Dart. The timescale for the project that was published in 2017 show the Dart running gear installation and controls has a one year window followed by 6 months of testing. There was an overlap with the start of the Dart installation and the finishing of the building work but the infrastructure was meant to have been finished by June 2020.

Lee Baker Street

4th Nov 2020, 15:26

southside bobby

4th Nov 2020, 15:53

With permissions...with permissions.

Bim in Hertfordshire is on your case with 19m let alone the creeping.

LTNman

4th Nov 2020, 15:58

For the airport to become maxed out is at minimum; 22 million passengers a year!

Can’t remember if the figure is 22m or 22.5 million within the existing boundary but the figure I gave of 18m is the figure that was quoted, as other figures are subject to at least two planning applications. As we know Luton Airport is unique where the operator asks the owner for permission. It is all very dodgy as the owner should not be the decision maker.

southside bobby

4th Nov 2020, 16:26

Bim & Hertfordshire are on the case even to 19m let alone any dodgy creep to 22.5m.
.

LTNman

4th Nov 2020, 16:40

So the locals are not very happy today when these signs were put up. The motion to get the airport to fund the scheme as the parking problems were caused by the airport was voted down in part by the airport directors who are also Councillors. Conflicts of interest and a new source of income for a Council that is lending its airport £83m while cutting services to the bone.
https://i.imgur.com/n1kDJVu.png

pabely

4th Nov 2020, 18:35

Bim & Hertfordshire are on the case even to 19m let alone any dodgy creep to 22.5m.
.
Perhaps Bim doesn't like the airport because he can't get a flight to Uganda or China and has to go via LHR and an elecric car can't make it! 🤐
Pilots living in AL5 might think differently.

pabely

4th Nov 2020, 19:17

Luton won't be second busiest airport in lockdown #2

LGS6753

4th Nov 2020, 22:28

Luton won't be second busiest airport in lockdown #2

But on the first day of lockdown #2, there are 83 departures and 78 arrivals scheduled (according to Flightstats).

Spanish eyes

5th Nov 2020, 04:51

More like a third of that figure with 26 departures and 23 arrivals until 21:00.

southside bobby

5th Nov 2020, 07:10

Ah well...it just took 2 hours for someone to make a bit of "show" of themselves...It could have been relied on.

LTNman

5th Nov 2020, 07:53

More like a third of that figure with 26 departures and 23 arrivals until 21:00.

And even those should mainly be ghost flights although I suspect many passengers will be ignoring the lockdown.

southside bobby

5th Nov 2020, 08:57

Don`t Border Force & even Security have an over arching view & control?

LTNman

5th Nov 2020, 20:21

The police are meant to enforce the rules. They can be seen everyday strutting around in pairs carrying big guns and doing very little apart from chatting about what they did the night before. Money for nothing as every hour they have a change of shift for a well earned tea break. When the terminal was closed and even when there was only 3 flights a day LLAOL could not get the police to reduce their airport presence as the airport was picking up the wage bill.

Meanwhile LTNman gets accosted frequently by illegal taxi touts with not a copper in sight as the walk from the cosy terminal to the drop off area is just too far for the long arm of the law.

Dannyboy39

6th Nov 2020, 07:28

Meanwhile LTNman gets accosted frequently by illegal taxi touts with not a copper in sight as the walk from the cosy terminal to the drop off area is just too far for the long arm of the law.
This is not wrong at all. It is one of my pet hates about travelling through LTN and there needs to be a clampdown. Tourists are being heavily ripped off, but Addison Lee are not helping the situation either.

LTNman

6th Nov 2020, 10:04

I was maybe being a little unkind to the Old Bill, as they have taken action on occasions but they could do far more.

https://www.bedfordshire.police.uk/news-and-appeals/illegal-taxi-tout-gets-six-month-driving-ban#b20a7484

Another case

https://www.phtm.co.uk/news/2618/phtm-news/luton-man-fined-for-illegally-touting-for-taxi-business

I think they follow cars out of the barrier to avoid the £1 a minute parking charge for long stayers.

southside bobby

10th Nov 2020, 10:17

Luton recorded 297,000 pax in October -82%

LTNman

10th Nov 2020, 14:39

The expectation for November is a drop of 95%.

pabely

10th Nov 2020, 19:05

The expectation for November is a drop of 95%.
I think November will be a w/o at all UK airports.

LTNman

11th Nov 2020, 07:04

avidspotter

11th Nov 2020, 08:11

There are still holiday flights from Luton for those that want a holiday. I think the police should be a little bit more proactive at Luton and should be asking a few questions why people are travelling.
Not sure there are many passengers to ask judging by these images: https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2020-11-10/luton-airports-plea-as-passenger-numbers-plummet-by-more-than-80-per-cent

LTNman

11th Nov 2020, 10:14

The guy in the video is from LLAOL who are the airport operator. He has an accent, as he is Spanish, as is the largest LLAOL shareholder Aena who runs the show. Aena are the worlds largest airport operator so maybe he should be asking the Spanish government for financial help seeing it was the Spanish government that privatised the company a few years ago.

Also it hasn't stopped LLAOL spending money on planning applications and consultations with reports for airport expansion so they are not as hard up as they make out. Clearly it is a tragedy for those low paid workers who have been laid off or sacked but I have little sympathy with Aena.

As for the other 49% shareholder, they are subject to a takeover bid so clearly there is plenty of money there as well.

pabely

11th Nov 2020, 11:22

There are still holiday flights from Luton for those that want a holiday. I think the police should be a little bit more proactive at Luton and should be asking a few questions why people are travelling.
RYR operating flights to Tenerife & Malta, probably thinking cheaper to run the flights rather than refund?
Why do you think Police should be involved, next it will be roadblocks on M5 questioning why people go to Cornwall? Should be questioning more what it happening in Luton town itself!

inOban

11th Nov 2020, 14:01

The move by Blue Air to LHR seems to be part of a wider change of focus. They're moving their Paris flights from Beauvais to CDG, according to routes online.

ATNotts

11th Nov 2020, 14:07

There are still holiday flights from Luton for those that want a holiday. I think the police should be a little bit more proactive at Luton and should be asking a few questions why people are travelling.

The current ban of leaving the country for leisure is draconian, and more reminiscent of East Germany than the United Kingdom. By all means put strict, and monitored conditions on those who return, but leaving the UK the onus should be upon the destination country to decide how to handle potential infections from abroad.

southside bobby

11th Nov 2020, 14:41

Pretty nonsense stuff really...

Not condoning travel ex UK in a National Health Emergency at all but what would happen to the many passengers who may well be denied entry into the destination country then under those proposals?

The onus is on the UK & populous to handle it`s own Lockdown Emergency within its own borders & not to export it & for everyone to act responsibly surely.

So you are quite happy for leisure returnees then to be liabilities of the UK taxpayer & drain too very limited resources to monitor them after irresponsible travel.

Did you ever travel to East Germany?

LTNman

11th Nov 2020, 16:09

RYR operating flights to Tenerife & Malta, probably thinking cheaper to run the flights rather than refund?
Why do you think Police should be involved, next it will be roadblocks on M5 questioning why people go to Cornwall? Should be questioning more what it happening in Luton town itself!

The police are meant to be enforcing Covid regulations. The airport has its own dedicated police team who just work at the airport even when there were no passengers. With very few passengers travelling it would not take much of an effort to ask passengers why they are travelling and would give them something to do.

As for roadblocks, the police set them up on Sunday mornings on the Airport approach road to do car insurance and car tax checks as well as other checks on the drivers. Is that justified or part of a police state?

ATNotts

11th Nov 2020, 16:17

southside bobby

11th Nov 2020, 18:04

Then perhaps you should be aware of course that using rhetoric comparing the UK with East Germany in denying travel for jollies over a limited period to aid attempts to quell a virus which is perceived to be out of control is plain daft quite honestly.

avidspotter

11th Nov 2020, 18:58

Back to the assumption again that flights to sun destinations only carry holidaymakers! I'm sure there will be some rule breakers but like I said not many. There were a grand total of 75 passengers between both the Tenerife and Malta departures today - and only 500 passengers across all flights.

I just can't buy the argument that it is cheaper to operate a flight than pay for refunds, but happy to be corrected if anyone produce the evidence/figures to support this opinion.

Also to a point raised earlier about the impact on low paid workers, it should be pointed out that there are also plenty of well paid back office staff, including company directors, managers, pilots, engineers, marketing, finance, operations, project managers, analysts, fire fighters etc etc that have also been furloughed, taken a pay cut or been made redundant from almost every company based at the airport.

You can argue the rights or wrongs of the airport's priorities but ultimately any money saved by not running their consultation is frankly a drop in the ocean and would not make any material difference to the balance sheet.