MANCHESTER - 8

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

MUFC_fan,

No doubt the transfer with BA via T5 *can* be a positive alternative compared to JFK/PHL. But this is based upon the experience of facilities within the shiny new T5 building. The reason I avoid the LHR connection is the unreliable record of the connecting flights themselves, not the attractive ambience of the departure lounge. LHR's fully subscribed runways have no margin for reduced traffic rates. And when there is a forecast of weather issues, industrial action, or just about any other problem you can think of ... be assured that it will be the MAN-LHR Shuttles which get it in the neck.

Now I know that there are many apologists on here who will suggest that it is better to cancel MAN flights rather than those serving destinations further afield. Well, that argument has been done here before so I won't labour the issues. Suffice to say that if you are the customer whose cruise ship from Miami left without them, will it comfort you to be told that BA maintained the full schedule to XYZ instead of MAN? If you are the NW-based business executive who misses that vital contract meeting in HKG because the MAN Shuttle was scrubbed, will it comfort you to know that BA prioritized the connection of your continental competitor at your expense?

When cancellations hit, BA has demonstrated a policy of not sharing the pain around. To cancel some MAN shuttles is understandable ... to scrub the lot en bloc is unreasonable. The excuse that [the world's most expensive per mile] walk-up fares are available on the train via Euston doesn't cut it. Apart from the cost issue, your connecting flight is likely to be long gone by the time you reach LHR.

So no matter how nice T5's passenger facilities are, as long as the MAN Shuttle remains the first choice fallguy for LHR's widely-recognized runway capacity issues, it will be more reliable hubs for my bookings please. MAN customers pay just as much for reliable travel arrangements as everybody else. The importance of their journeys should be afforded equal recognition and respect.

Regards. SHED.

[easyflyer83]

Shed-on-a-pole, I completely understand your view point as a customer. You cannot deny BA's logic however. It's undoubtedly an unpopular decision with MAN/Domestic pax but difficult decisions such as these are made by airlines (and business in general) on a regular basis. With some notice (which in some situations can be achieved) MAN pax can make alternative arrangements. Perhaps refunded by BA? I don't know.

The fact of the matter is whilst LHR is constricted and does have problems, these are only occasional. You, and others, make it sound like it is every other week that LHR faces meltdown. IMO, you are just as likely to be snowstorm bound in JFK or PHL in the Winter.

I personally don't think LHR is that bad from my experiences. Sure, it's not as slick as other airports but i've never found it horrifying. Perhaps some people on this board simply resent LHR for what it is and what MAN isn't? And that comes from a big supporter and "lover" of MAN.

[Mr A Tis]

I personally don't think LHR is that bad from my experiences

I think Shed was indeed relating to his own experiences, which indeed are similar to my own. So I'd have to be pretty desperate to rely on a LHR shuttle.
To add insult to injury MAN pax usually pay a hefty premium to be first in line for the chop. I recently checked a MAN-LHR-SIN , HKG-LHR-MAN J class ticket with BA, it was almost £1,000 cheaper to originate the same trip with BA from AMS rather than MAN.

Everyone has a choice / personal preference. I'd hub anywhere from MAN rather than LHR. ZRH or MUC are my choices eastbound & ATL westbound.
Of course many people are now enjoying the DXB / AUH / DOH experiences. With almost more flights there than LHR anyway, the virtual demise of a BMI shuttle service, the LHR hub is becoming less and less relevant to Manchester anyway.

I kind of think this subject has been done to death & maybe any mention of LHR should be obliterated now from the Manchster thread ?:\

[Skipness One Echo]

To add insult to injury MAN pax usually pay a hefty premium to be first in line for the chop. I recently checked a MAN-LHR-SIN , HKG-LHR-MAN J class ticket with BA, it was almost £1,000 cheaper to originate the same trip with BA from AMS rather than MAN.

Actually that's pretty standard industry practice. AF CDG-LHR-LAX was packed full of US bound French passengers as it was sold WAY cheaper than the CDG-LAX service which involved two less aircraft to get you there. It's how the legacy / hub airlines sell outside of their home market. Other UK home markets are in the same boat and this is not specific to BA or MAN.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

easyflyer83 -

I completely accept your point that any airport can suffer days of disruption due to weather and other issues, and tough decisions must be made by the carriers affected as a consequence. But the key consideration from the point of view of MAN customers is that if UAL / AWE / AAL etc cancel your flight you can be pretty sure that the bulk of their flying programme fell by the wayside first. At LHR - where runway capacity is a critical issue - MAN flights ARE (like it or not) always first in line for the chop. And the chop does happen too frequently for me as a customer to entrust my travel arrangements to the main carrier in question. If I thought that they would spread the pain around - eg. cancel half the MAN-LHR schedules and afew flights from elsewhere - then I might be more inclined to give them another chance. However, this does not appear to be the policy so I cannot book a journey connecting via LHR with confidence.

I am aware that airlines must make difficult decisions from time to time and I sympathise with that. But customers have their own decisions to make too, and I also sympathise with those who prioritize their self-interest. In booking their travel arrangements with carriers which only cancel them 'in extremis' rather than at the first whiff of problems affecting their hub, customers can maximize their chances of enjoying a trouble-free trip. That is what I do.

Sadly, LHR's runway capacity is stuck in a time-warp, and however they improve the terminal facilities that remains an issue for pax originating at MAN. Because it is we who get cancelled first. And the notion that we would be refunded if all goes wrong is a red herring ... monies paid for a product which is not delivered belongs to the customer anyway. If you have committed your scarce and precious holiday entitlement to a major trip, a refund and two weeks at home is probably not what you had in mind? You may be refunded money which was already yours. You may receive some additional compensation (if you are lucky). But will you get replacement leave from work? Will you get an alternative vacation?

My recommendation to friends booking travel from MAN is to select the airline which offers the best prospect of providing a trouble-free trip. Or, when things do go wrong, a company which demonstrably does its utmost to get you there by other means. From the point of view of MAN customers, there is one well-known airline which consistently falls short based on those criteria. And worse, they still consider stitching up MAN pax to be their best possible option when problems arise, so the record is unlikely to improve. So sorry - no LHR transfers for me thanks!

Regards. SHED.

[EISNN]

Not sure if this is where I should ask but I'm flying DUB-MAN-PFO with FR first and then EZ. I don't have any hold luggage. I'm just wondering can I transfer airside from T2 to T3 or do I have to clear customs in T2 and go thru security screening again at T3? Any advice much appreciated. Thanks.

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

You'll have to arrive landside into T2, and then walk to T3 (15 mins) for re-screening as it's not an interline connection.

No customs in T2 as you're arriving from the EU.

[Jamie2k9]

New MAN - BCN with Jet2 from March 28 2012. 4 weekly.

[Ian Brooks]

Lufthansa are reporting MAN pax up 20%+ for the year so far


Ian B

[ls_jet2]

New MAN - BCN with Jet2 from March 28 2012. 4 weekly.

Where's this info from jamie? there's nothing showing in the booking system currently??

[jubilee]

It was bookable yesterday, and its still bookable. Flight s start March 30.
Jubilee

[ian_h1]

EISNN, Enjoy your trip Paphos is a lovely place.

You can get personalised transfer information for your journey here:

Manchester Airport : MyAirport (http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/MANInfo/MyAirport)

But I would have thought that if you have only hand luggage as you state and have already checked in and have your boarding pass for the EZY flight you could follow the international to international airside transfer.

[Mr A Tis]

Pretty sure I saw a BA 777 going into MAN fri 13th evening around 6ish? Anything special, or had I had one too many?:eek:

[A330ETOPS]

It did the delayed man-lgw



A330etops

[johnnychips]

I don't want this to be a 'what plane is operating my flight?' thing, but I'm rather confused.

Unlike all you seasoned travellers on this site, I've never travelled Business Class before. But in a couple of weeks time, I'm travelling Swiss to Barcelona changing at Geneva, and I thought, what the hell!

I wondered if I could use a lounge at MAN. So I went on Swiss's website, which indeed confirmed I could use the Wilmslow lounge in T1. Now before you all rapaciously reach for your typing fingers, I realised my flight was operated by BMI from T3 - Swiss may indeed operate their own flights from T1.

The BMI website on lounges was not helpful and seemed to focus on what they offered at LHR. Perhaps I missed a link, but the fact I did either makes me thick or it wasn't well signed,

So I tried MAN's website and found a section on 'Lounges'. Lo and behold there was a 'bmi Executive lounge' in T3.

Whether to do some serious work or completely chill-out [sic], our world-beating selection of lounges are havens of peace and serenity before your flight.
Just click on a lounge to find out more and start relaxing

I did click and, of course, nothing happened.

So apart from being a personal query (which I'd be delighted to get an answer for, i.e. which lounge could I use and if so what are the facilities?), could MAN and the airlines' websites get their acts together to provide better information?

[jubilee]

JC.

Is your routing correct, BMI fly to Basel(Basle), depending on how you like to spell it.
Not seen a BMI flight to Geneva.
Cheaper option could have been with Monarch direct,purchase the extra leg room seats at the front, and the £15 (or whatever they charge now) for lounge access.
J.

[Mr A Tis]

Swiss don't fly MAN-GVA and neither does BMI,
Go back to "start" I think.
Business class with any airline will give you lounge access.

[johnnychips]

Oops, yes Basel. I just got 'not Zurich' in my head. Thanks for info!

[PhilW1981]

Why on earth anyone would fly to Barcelona with a connection is completely beyond me when there are a plethora of direct flights. Is business class really worth bothering with for the sake of having to change planes and add 2 hours to the trip?

[MUFC_fan]

Why on earth anyone would fly to Barcelona with a connection is completely beyond me when there are a plethora of direct flights. Is business class really worth bothering with for the sake of having to change planes and add 2 hours to the trip?


Usually it's to do with frequent flyer programmes. Star in this case. Thousands do it everyday in Europe. In fact, in the US it's pretty standard!

[johnnychips]

What plethora? I thought there was a Monarch flight at 0800, and I didn't really want to get the middle-of-the-night train from Sheffield and preceding £30 taxi or go night before and stay in hotel. If any other airline operate direct MAN-BCN I didn't know - Jet2 next year apparently?

[Mr A Tis]

Johnnychips is right. there is only ONE flight direct to Barcelona, Monarch. Next year there will be Jet 2 on 4 days a week.
Many people connect to/from BCN because of flight timings. I use Monarch alot-but also use Swiss via ZRH, who can also often be cheaper than Monarch.
I Certainly would not pay for J class on a shorthaul flight.
But Johnnychips you can use the BMI lounge, but the lounge is situated near gate 18 & the BSL flight usuallly goes from gate 53 a fair distance away.
I have also traveled on the BMI BSL service, which had very poor loads both ways & there was not even a cabin divider between economy & business class, mind you there were no J class pax either way.

[mybrico]

There is also twice daily (?) to BCN from LPL direct with EZY and that must be the main Northwest routing these days I guess. 14,000+ in Feb 2011 vs 2000+ from MAN. Scope for EZY here. C Class in Europe in my view not worth it, unless you get it as a perk on a connection to longhaul

[Tight Seat]

The problem for locos to BCN is the fact that pax tend not to buy anything, many don't bother with hold bags. Net result higher ticket price as we all know that for locos its all about the extras.

[Zippy Monster]

I have also traveled on the BMI BSL service, which had very poor loads both ways & there was not even a cabin divider between economy & business class, mind you there were no J class pax either way

I don't think MAN-BSL ever has had good loads - when Swiss operated it, it was often barely half-full. When they then pulled the RJ100 off LCY and MAN from BSL, I imagine it would have been easy to drop MAN if they'd wanted, and route the passengers via ZRH; therefore Lufthansa (owning both airlines, obviously) must have a reason for wanting to keep it going. I hope it does.

[Seljuk22]

Anyone heard about SQ cancelling MAN-MUC?

SQ flies daily SIN-FRA-JFK with B744. From next winter this flight should be operated by an A380 and FRA-JFK (A380 is too big for this route) could be cancelled.
JFK could be tagged on the current SIN-MUC flight and so MUC-MAN won't operate anymore.
But still, it's just a rumour so far.

[mickyman]

Seljuk22

What is your source for this 'rumour' if you have one - thanks...

MM

[Seljuk22]

'Source':
Strecken-Gerchtekche: Slotantrge, Flurfunk etc. - airliners.de - Forum (http://forum.airliners.de/index.php?s=&showtopic=39751&view=findpost&p=581763)

[mickyman]

Seljuk22

Thanks for the link - which is another forum in German.

We will have to wait and see......

[MAN777]

Also read somewhere that SAS were to begin code sharing with SQ.

So could it be feasible that MANs SQ PAX start their journey on a 737 via scandinavia ???

[MAN777]

Also read somewhere that SAS were to begin code sharing with SQ.

So could it be feasible that MANs SQ PAX start their journey on a 737 via scandinavia ???

More rubbing of hands by the ME carriers !!!

[Ian Brooks]

Could be quite interesting as there were 180 pax on Sunday

Ian B

[mickyman]

MAN777

I dont think thats a possibility - loads are currently good
and cargo is crucial.

MM

[MAN777]

When did good loads have anything to do with it ?

Good loads didnt stop QF, SAA, CX etc etc pulling out.

Commercial politics and best utilisation of an airframe is what matters.

[Ian Brooks]

I have heard that we will not be without a service
The cargo alone is worth a lot of money
Re SAA, CX and QF
SAA pulled because they short of aircraft to start the New York service after
aparthied
QF and CX something to do with BA

Ian B

[spannersatcx]

CX something to do with BA nothing at all to do with BA.

[mickyman]

MAN777

Calm yourself down.....all will be revealed.......

MM

[easyflyer83]

Wasn't the CX pull out something to do with the pilots union there?

[Skipness One Echo]

I have heard that we will not be without a service
The cargo alone is worth a lot of money

Perhaps SQ might be able to cash in the Thu and Sat evening slots used by their B744Fs and send Singapore Cargo to Manchester instead? Mind you the A380 into LHR has probably impacted their cargo uplift as well.

[pwalhx]

Skipness is correct the A380 does have an impact on cargo as it significantly reduces the amount that can be carried.

[Suzeman]

In an article in the MEN today about the cancellation of some flights to Scotland I found the following quote from an airport spokesman

Spokesman John Greenway said: "We are not worried at the moment. Customers should check with their airline for the latest information but we are going to be doing our best to stay open. But the rules have changed this year so I don't think we are going to have to close. What might happen is airlines decide not to fly. We anticipate staying open."

"we are going to be doing our best to stay open" is an interesting phrase. Has MAN got some secret weapons that can try to deflect the ash cloud if it ventures near? I think we should be told

Of course the airport will remain open. Under the new rules, it's up to airlines to decide whether they fly or not depending on the ash concentration and their approved safety case.

Not very well explained in my opinion!:ugh:

Suzeman

[JSCL]

I hear MAN has a field with 50 industrial size fans in as their defence system.

(well we can all conspire - i doubt they do!)

[AircraftOperations]

Some airports didn't remain open last time. Indeed, MAN (I think?) and others shut when it was obvious that no flights were going to operate for the next day or two.

[Seljuk22]

Also read somewhere that SAS were to begin code sharing with SQ.

So could it be feasible that MANs SQ PAX start their journey on a 737 via scandinavia ???

SAS Group - Press (http://se.yhp.waymaker.net/sasgroup/release.asp?id=226797)
What about SIN-CPH-MAN?
CPH (SAS) as a Star alliance hub with just 3 flights per week (by SQ, no SAS) to SIN could be upgraded to daily flights and the route would fit much better (6814 mi via CPH) than SIN-MUC-MAN (6956 mi).

[Ian Brooks]

It`s got to be daily as was proved before, pax fell dramatically when the route was
3/4 days a week

[nigel osborne]

"I have heard that we will not be without a service
The cargo alone is worth a lot of money
Re SAA, CX and QF
SAA pulled because they short of aircraft to start the New York service after
aparthied
QF and CX something to do with BA"

Hi Ian,

Best bit of spin Ive heard for a long time, great stuff !:ok:

[kenno]

Can someone please advise me why the outbound from MAN (ZB546) has been showing delays every Thursday of between 4 and 5 hours over the last two or three weeks!? Our flight itinerary (from Monarch) for Thursday 2nd June shows ZB547 departing ACE at 17.00 with an arrival time in MAN of 21.00 but this flight has not been arriving in MAN until 01.00 or 02.00 on Fridays!
I have just checked their website for any changes to ZB547 schedule but it has not altered!

[Mr.Bloggs]

CX cargo 74's seem to be missing quite often these days. Reduced schedule? And if so, why?

[Planemike]

Can any one confirm a TriStar visited MAN on Sunday at about 20:40?

Planemike

[spannersatcx]

CX cargo 74's seem to be missing quite often these days. Reduced schedule? And if so, why?

Rerouting to various ports due reduced cargo ex HKG something to do with nothing coming out of Japan! plus it's normally a quiet time this time of year. Also the delay in the 748 delivery and redeployment of a/c to AHK and the new joint venture has reduced capacity.

[purplehelmet]

not sure about a tristar mike,but lufthansa md11 arrived about 20.34.could be this that you saw!:ok:

[Planemike]

Thanks purple...........

Two of us i/ded it as Tristar and commented it was unusual/unlikely. The other guy was ex cabin crew and has seen a few a/c in his time!! Possible it could have been an MD 11 and time was right. We were over towards Wigan. Not many civil TriStars around, thought about it afterwards and wondered if it could have been a RAF one, only likely candidate really.

Planemike

[Jamie2k9]

Last direct Delta MAN - JFK on 10 September. Flights resume 25 MArch 2012.

[ETOPS]

Well spotted! There is a Tristar parked at MAN this morning. Doesn't appear to have any titles - white with two blue stripes..........

[Ringwayman]

The Tristar arrived last night.

[MAN777]

Nice photo on TAS homepage


Home (http://tasmanchester.co.uk/Home.html)

[clcman]

Here she is!

http://tasreports.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/n388ls-las-vegas-sands-corp-l1011-500-w.jpg?w=700&h=383 (http://tasreports.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/n388ls-las-vegas-sands-corp-l1011-500-w.jpg)

[OltonPete]

Surprised that the only posts today surround a Tristar despite a pretty
decent day for Manchester Airport with TAP restarting and Qatar going
double daily from today.

TAP was a 319 and I notice that both Qatar's were A333's!!!!!!

Loads East even with the school holidays can be dire in May/June
but two A333's - wow.

You would have thought A332's at least to start with, did anyone
get the loads?

What is the word with Delta to New York? I know it is bookable on
their website from the end of March 2012 but it is rumoured some
routes won't be coming back.

Pete

[Hamburg 2K8]

Any news on how 23R/05L works are going? When is resurfacing starting? Also is taxiway Alpha getting a good seeing too as well?! Needs it in places, I was thinking more so passing the AVP and before that down by the high speed taxiway exiting 23R (think it's AF and beyond)?!

[sito]

Due to the predicted easterly winds tomorrow, is it likely 05R is going to be used for landings? Thanks :)

[Hamburg 2K8]

Yes, apart from the usual times in the afternoon it's closed (12.00-15.00hrs). In winter it can be closed all day some days depending on traffic but I iimagine that now in early June it will only be closed for the times stated above. I quite like landing on 05R nice views of the Cheshire countryside.

[sito]

I was hoping they would be using the 05s for landings tomorrow, as I like the different and closer views you get compared to the normal landings, I'll have to wait and see I guess!

[Hamburg 2K8]

Have a good day!

[BHX5DME]

http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/alldocs/7D4BF66E63CAF79A802578A300520662/$File/May+11.pdf

[roverman]

Runway 2 (05R-23L) is normally closed 1030-1600 local Mon-Fri, and longer at weekends.

Runway 1 project going well and more or less to programme. With the new electrical ducting substantially in place it is entering the complex phase to replace the runway/approach lighting, and the surface. Various runway exits will be closed for periods - watch those NOTAMs!

Pax increase of 10% and aircraft movements at around 7% in May, as reported. Rolling 12 month figures have now gone positive for the first time in what, 3 or 4 years? Those who have known life at MAN for a while will agree that you can feel the change - the place is coming back to life, it can be pretty busy out there now. Still some way off how it was five years ago but it's going in the right direction now. I would say MAN is on track to regain 3rd place in the UK pax throughput table within the next 12 months.

[OltonPete]

Very good figures especially the International scheduled ones.

More to come with TAP and Qatar this month although one stat
pointed out to me was a surprise and Roverman's quote "Still some
way off how it was five years ago" could read ten years ago!!!!!

May 2001 pax 1830491 - that is surprising.

I will be pleased if my local makes +0.9% let alone 9.9%!!!!

Pete

[Shrimps]

Due to the predicted easterly winds tomorrow, is it likely 05R is going to be used for landings? Thanks

The forecast is showing westerly (290º/6kts) throughout the validity period, so 05s are unlikely I'm afraid.

[sito]

Oh right, I was under the impression we're in for some easterly winds tomorrow, nah well better luck next time haha

[sito]

Oh right, I was under the impression tomorrow some easterly winds are due, better luck next time I guess haha

[Jamie2k9]

Easyjet announced seventh aircraft for MAN by summer 2012.

easyjet investment to create hundreds of jobs | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/business/s/1422641_easyjet-investment-to-create-hundreds-of-jobs)

[MKY661]

Monarch to add new scheduled routes to SSH and DLM. Hopefully more will follow. However Gibraltar is becoming seasonal and Malaga is being cut down slightly.:(

[Suzeman]

The forecast is showing westerly (290º/6kts) throughout the validity period, so 05s are unlikely I'm afraid

Good forecast then, as MAN changed to 05 ops at about midnight and have been on them all day Friday so far.....

May 2011 traffic stats - good to see a healthy growth but remember there was some volcanic ash closures in May 2010 as well as April, so some of the growth is artificial. Can't remember how many days it with flights grounded - only one possibly. If that is the case, it would reduce the growth by roughly 3%

With extra QR/TP/EK and now the EZY deal, it seems that things are taking off again :eek: (And no I don't work for a newspaper :cool:)

Suzeman

[Shrimps]

The forecast is showing westerly (290º/6kts) throughout the validity period, so 05s are unlikely I'm afraid.

But what would I know!? My TAF decoding was spot on; the Met Office weren't and so it's been 05s all day!

[pobox557]

im told the tri star belongs to Las Vegas Sands Casino Corp. It flew up here from Stansted cheaper to park up here than down south

[RoyHudd]

DL chopping JFK service after Sep

[Mr A Tis]

Roy, DL JFK is not chopped, but suspended for the winter. Refer to post #2054, it will be back in March.

[RoyHudd]

Thank you. Still worried, given the dropping pax stats.

[roverman]

This route has always had a seasonal fluctuation in demand. With AA intending to continue over the winter and CO making just minor changes I suppose something had to give. It would be nice to think we could sustain 4 x 757s a day year-round to the NYC hubs, but perhaps we can't.

[ek773]

:rolleyes:

Does anyone know what the loads for the new EK & QR flights have been like, and is EK likely to further increase the capacity to a 77W on their new flights in September?

[Mr Mac]

I have no idea on load factors but have been on DXB flight 3 times in Business class in May, and on each flight I would say an average of 85% full in that class, although EK019 on 30/5 was only about 50% full, maybe down to bank holiday in UK. Crews say that they are always good loads to and from Manchester (all those former BA Flyers who will go through Heathrow maybe !). Have been on SQ twice since Jan and they also appear to have healthy loads. Do not know about other ME carriers. Another slight observation in that I think the service is better on 777 on the evening flight, rather than lunchtime A380 due to crew to passenger ratio I would think.

[JSCL]

I use Qatar out of Manchester once every 2 weeks at the moment, I have seen good loads. I'd say at least 80% but I did have one occurrence mid-April when the aircraft was nigh empty - Id say around 30% - but seems rare from my experience. Seems Qatar to Doha is booming with popularity - it's one of the best airlines I've used for hub ongoing connections.

[AircraftOperations]

Believe the new morning EK service has lowish pax numbers inbound and outbound, and with ok cargo loads, but EK expected it.
The A330s can't be as nice to travel in as the B777 and A380s, either.

[johnnychips]

I enquired about what I could expect in business class/lounges with BMI/Swiss to Barcelona about three weeks ago and I was grateful for replies.

Here goes: BMI lounge fine; five business classes passengers to Basel (89 in total); Basel airport lounge like an arboretum - very nice as airside otherwise dead. Business on Swiss Avro to BCN (3, rest of plane full) incredible service.

On way back in economy was rather surprised to find myself upgraded to business on ZRH-MAN leg. Business (about 16) and rest of plane full (A320). Think they'd overbooked and my name came up on computer as 'suitable for upgrade' as had travelled business (just a week) before.

At MAN the iris recognition didn't recognise me - I found the instructions very unclear - but at least I didn't have to go right to the back on failure, and although there seemed to be a massive queue it cleared well - about six minutes with seven staff on T1. Case waiting on belt - not bad for half-term.

So well done BMI/Swiss/MAN. I know a lot of you on the forum are regular business passengers and use your time in lounges, having a meal, getting on and off first for, erm... business. But I would recommend it as a treat, especially if airlines lower the prices a bit at weekends like Swiss do.

[brian_dromey]

5 business class passengers was 4 more than the last time I flew the route. Total numbers sound about right, maybe strengthening slightly. Glas you had a good flight with the guys at BD and LX. I would say the product at LX is more consistent and overall better, but with a bit of focus and continuing investment in their product BD could be equally as good as LX and the likes.

[Mr Mac]

The EK morning flight is a very early morning depp from DXB, and does not connect that well (for me anyway) with other services. Also A330 not as good seat wise as A380/B777. Jet lag would also be a problem if you can not sleep on planes, as it makes for a very long day after you arrive in Man.

[MKY661]

lots of diversions today for some reason

[TCX69]

ZB533 1355 Palma Diverted - Call Flightline on 090 10 10 1000
LS880 1400 Alicante Diverted - Call Flightline on 090 10 10 1000
WW3882 1420 Bordeaux Diverted - Call Flightline on 090 10 10 1000
ZB581 1425 Faro Diverted - Call Flightline on 090 10 10 1000
BD1344 1430 Lyon Diverted - Call Flightline on 090 10 10 1000

[Code 100]

According to another website, there was a large thunderstorm around that time, hence the diversions

[LBIA]

There where some really violent Thunderstorms over the Airfield earlier this afternoon hence the following diverted.

EMA = 1x Monarch A321, 1x Thomson B738, 1x bmi baby 733 & bmi regional E135
LBA = 1x Jet2 B733, 1x Thomson B752 & 1x Thomson A320
LPL = 1x Monarch A321, 1x bmi baby B733 & 1x Ryanair B738
BHX = 1x Monarch A320 & 1x Thomas Cook B763

[easyJet Jack]

The thunderstorms were very violent! I was travelling from Stockport back to Leeds via M60 and M62 and the conditions on the roads in my little car were appalling so I dread to think what the skies were like!

eJJ ;)

[RoyHudd]

The thunderstorms were around, but not so violent. (I was playing golf at Styal through the afternoon, and my round was not disrupted.) Try the tropics in summer for seriously heavy-duty storms. Indonesia, Goa, Singapore, Jamaica and Orlando spring to mind.

Which is not to say that diversions are a bad idea, especially when flying with the plog fuel that one's company generally wishes. (Non-pilots disregard)

[AircraftOperations]

Who would have made the call regarding the weather?

Each pilot or ATC?

I presume the airfield didn't close?

[Betablockeruk]

The airfield did not close. Pilots were advised of the thunderstorm and asked if they wished to make an approach. Obviously, aircraft radar is better for weather and no one but the LH even considered an approach. The main problem was that the cell moved straight up the 23R ILS (ILS as was before it got taken out!)

[DomyDom]

3 new routes from Jet2 from March 2012:

Milan (Bergamo) 2x/week Wed & Sun
Paris CDG 4x/week Mon, Tues, Fr & Sun
Toulouse 3x/week Thurs, Fri, Sun

.....on sale now!:)

[Cazza_fly]

Paris CDG 4x/week Mon, Tues, Fr & Sun

Wow really wouldnt have expected to see Paris, they are clearly trying to go for the leisure market here but that could now be 8+ flights on some days, surely thats too much?

It is however good to see Toulouse back after bmibaby leave at the end of this summer.

[AircraftOperations]

The main problem was that the cell moved straight up the 23R ILS (ILS as was before it got taken out!)

What took the ILS out? Lightning?

[Ian Brooks]

Flights have dropped since AF/BE started code sharing so I would think there is room for LS to restart the route

Ian B

[Betablockeruk]

What took the ILS out? Lightning?

It "failed" during the thunderstorm. Can only but assume.

[learjet50]

IAN

I cant see the AF/BE consortium letting LS on Paris as they seem to have a monopoly with this route with a lot of connecting passengers to/from Paris..

They maybe happy to let the Mickey Mouse pax (Going to Euro Disney) go on LS but I doubt it..

In my opion AF control which Airlines/at what time go to CDG

I might be wrong but I dont think so

So My assumption is

They will let LS Operate (They cant stop them) but they will get ****e slots at CDG and will only be picking up local (Eurodisney traffic)

An opionion only please dont shout at me as I might be wrong


Regards



NNN

[Cazza_fly]

They will let LS Operate (They cant stop them) but they will get ****e slots at CDG and will only be picking up local (Eurodisney traffic)

There's a good mish mash of flight times on the route some Sundays and Mondays are in the afternoon while Thursday and Fridays get a late morning departure from MAN. What I have noticed though is all flights have a scheduled 45 minute turn time.

[Ian Brooks]

Yes Cazza_fly the times are perfect for anybody wanting a long weekend in Paris or Manchester ( now Manchester is classed as a major tourism market )


Ian B

[TSR2]

now Manchester is classed as a major tourism market

Don't think Carlos Tevez will agree with that :hmm:

[DomyDom]

I wouldn't underestimate the eurodisney traffic, last time I used the service AF were falling all over themselves to provide a good child friendly service, and I know many high earning passengers that use this route for that very reason reason. We need to remember that it's PAX on seats and what they are prepared to pay that matter. I think its good Jet2 are providing some competition on this route, and Paris is always a good weekend destination to visit even if you don't have kids.

DomyDom

[Ian Brooks]

TSR2
Yes I saw that interview, what a t****r he seems verry bitter


Ian B

[learjet50]

Heard this rumour

from 8th August FlyBe will be all jet to Paris operated as follows

The 1 st Flight is a E195
The 2nd Flight is a E175
The Third Flight is a Mix of E195/E175 thats the lunch time 1

The E175/E195 will also operate 2 German Flights

The Frankfurt pm 4 ish and the Hannover 5 30 ish

As I said just what I heard but from a reliable source which would make sense as to Base the E175 at Glasgow which is not a E195 Base therefore lack of engineers maybe ..............


We await with bated breath will it be Guernsey/Glasgow/Exeter/Birmingham or Manchester



Regards to all

[Cloud1]

GLA will become an E195 base...its all rather confusing and keeps changing but the first E175 will go to GLA until September. This then swaps with the current INV based E195. The second E175 goes to Manchester to operate as you have posted plus some others such as JER and any W patterns from there to the likes of DSA.

Not sure where the third will go yet, possibly another MAN but more likely to be BHX or SOU.

[ib26uk]

Forgive me if this has been asked / said before but is the E175 replacing the Dash 8s completely ? leaving flybe with just a E175 / E 195 fleet ???

[Cloud1]

Short answer, no. Basically some of the 'older' dashes are leaving the fleet although new ones are coming in. Nothing has been specifically said but I suspect that some Dash's will go on to other projects in the future, am sure BE Management are looking at different things as has widely been discussed.

The E175s are to help compete on business sectors that dont require the larger 195 but have a sector length which may be a little too long for the 'average' passenger to bare on a Q400 (if this makes sense!)

[JC25]

Flybe will discontinue flights from MAN (& BHX) to FRA from July 24th due to poor financial performance on the routes.

[easyJet Jack]

The thunderstorms were around, but not so violent. (I was playing golf at Styal through the afternoon, and my round was not disrupted.)

With all due respect, they were violent, the motorway was reduced to 30mph, visibility was poor and the wind sure picked up!

The storm did move south rather quickly however as once I reached the moors the storm had dissipated.

But we have to remember that A/C begin their approach through this **** way before they get to MAN!

[RoyHudd]

You don't fly through storm cells old chap, no matter how violent the storms related to them may be.

[pwalhx]

As they also probably do not base there decision on landing on the fact the weather was suitable for your golf game.

[Mr A Tis]

You don't fly through storm cells old chap, no matter how violent the storms related to them may be

...and maybe that is why the aircraft diverted. (?)

Some pretty hefty thunderstorms around Barcelona on the very same evening, resulting in several diverts away from BCN.

[Diver_Dave]

JC25.

Use this route quite a lot...

MAN-FRA Still on timetable for October and bookable
although bizarrely FRA-MAN isn't!

Do you have a source?

Regards

DaveA

[JC25]

Information came from a Flybe internal announcement - it says that passenger with bookings on the cancelled services will be contacted soon to offer alternatives.

[jubilee]

Diver Dave,

I think you will find the Man - Fra flights in October are connecting via Southampton.
J

[Diver_Dave]

OK,

Back to LH then!

Not looking forward to having to fly BMI though.

Possibly the worst Customer care EVER!**
"We've cancelled every flight today, tough luck!"

Regards

DaveA

** I include Ryanair in that list!

[rcmarple]

Just saw a pair of Typhoons in formation on approach to 23R over Stockport. Does anyone know if they landed or were they just playing with the ILS...

[Andy7378]

Just saw a pair of Typhoons in formation on approach to 23R over Stockport. Does anyone know if they landed or were they just playing with the ILS...
Just a missed approach according to another forum.

[learjet50]

they were playing overshot to wake the airport up from its siesta

[TURIN]

Wondered where they came from. They passed over my place heading South then did a 270 deg LH turn just south of Congleton and headed off West (ish). Very slow, looked lost. :uhoh:

[MKY661]

Gibraltar now year round again. Hooray! :)

[Danny_R]

I'm guessing those were the same two typhoons that I saw over Hutton in Lancashire about 17:45 yesterday too.

[opnot]

Its the newest locost at Manch
1 seat, only if its the two seater
baggage allowance very very small
no inflight entertainment unless you are into aerobatics
no food guess what is coming up next
gets you there pretty quick though

[AircraftOperations]

Did I see a Star Air 767F as we taxiied into T2 on Wednesday evening?

If I did... New route, charter or diversion?

[MAN777]

There was another one tonight routing BFS - MAN - Cologne

Not sure what they are up to

[One Sixty until 4.]

UPS have a slight problem with DfT regarding the shipment of unexploded IEDs concealed in printer cartridges. EMA has been taken "offline" pending improvements to their screening procedures/capabilities.

MAN's freight facilities are up to the job and the flights temporarily re-assigned.

More freight at MAN is always welcome.:)

[One Sixty until 4.]

Norwegian website shows a resumption of their service to MAN from 31.10.11. arriving from Oslo.

DY1348 A 09.50 and returns as DY1349 D 10.20.

Good news and hopefully loads will be sustainable this time.
First green shoots of a recovery? And a vote of confidence in MAN. :D

[DomyDom]

One Sixty Until 4,

Thank you for the update. I agree this is good news and hopefully the Oslo-Manchester link will be successful.

Overall I think the recovery at Manchester is definately more than green shoots. This is quite evident now, especially with Madrid and Berlin links back, as well as some downright exiting (and hopefully successful) new routes from Easyjet like Bilbao. With Easyjet clearly committed to MAN, Jet 2 and Monarch likewise and with the prospect of interesting potential destinations like Bologna and Seville potentially on the cards for next year, as well as the new Jet2 'new' offerings to Barcelona, Toulouse, Bergamo and Paris, it will be now be interesting to see how both Flybe and Ryanair play their cards.

With regard to Flybe, I would love to see them expand into destinations in the south of France (and publicise it) as clearly they have done a good job in the north based on the number of satisfied customers who travel with them from Manchester to that region. My only concern with them is that in the past any offering to S. France has been a bit half hearted i.e. limited to the school holiday season, so for example if anybody wanted to travel to Avignon for a weekend in June they would need to travel via SOU. This is where Ryaniar could potentially clean up on the south of France routes from MAN if they wanted to.

Ryanair will be interesting over the next month or so. What do they do? Having come back to MAN they are clearly interested in developing their business from here. I and many others would love to see them do so however nobody likes to be blackmailed however we also understand that costs need to be controlled. Also MAN was quite right to do a deal with them as it really gave Easyjet the jolt they needed to provide something more exiting than what had been provided previously. I think this will be a real test of business judgement on both Ryanair and Manchester Airport's part. We clearly want the opportunity to fly with Ryanair from MAN as we do with other airlines and are prepared to pay for them on reasonable terms commensurate with the airport keeping a competative selection of airlines, and a good quality service to customers.

With the disposable income in the Greater Manchester/ Cheshire area, and the opportunites this would bring for Ryanair if they provided a significant expansion from MAN my view is that they would be successful if they are up for it. However as very welcome Madrid was, it would also be good to see them offering some unique routes from MAN e.g. destinations in France (Nimes, Toulon, Marseilles etc.), or similar airports not currently served from MAN in Italy or Spain. On this basis I think it would be a mistake on Ryanair's part not to expand from MAN within the next month or so. However I fear that pride may get in the way of business acumen and this will see FR either providing a minimal service from MAN, or reasons will be found to storm out (in the face of competition) and see FR cast off back to the Liverpool's of this world. I hope I'm wrong as I think MAN would benefit significantly from FR as would FR from MAN, and I think MAN are being very reasonable (no I don't work there) but I think FR are quite easily capable of looking a gift horse in the mouth. One rhetorical question for on the back of a card, why should an airline and airport be prevented from getting the business and service that customers want and are prepared to pay for because of management intransigence in one company or another?

There finishes my sermon of the week,

DomyDom:)

[learjet50]

Domydon

Very well said father May God be with you your sermon was perfect


The Archbshop of Sale


Gezza

[TSR2]

Having come back to MAN they are clearly interested in developing their business from here.

Remember Ryanair have NO aircraft based at Manchester. I feel that they are using Manchester more as a destination to utilise overseas based aircraft than any commitment to the airport.

[Ian Brooks]

Some might say testing the water.

Off to Paris now to sign for my Gulfstream ( in my dreams)
chance to get a look at B748 and freighter


Ian B

[easyflyer83]

DomyDolt, FR didn't give easy any kind of jolt at MAN. BIO was a replacement for HEL and SXF and MAD were well in the pipeline before FR's announcement which is why Easyjet were so pissed off.

[MARK9263]

As regards to the comment about Madrid. Ryanair have filled a gap in Manchester schedules, how long did Easyjet need ? If indeed, they have/had planned to operate the route from Manchester. With Madrid firmly established at Liverpool why would they do this ?

[easyflyer83]

The day after FR announced MAN-MAD, There was a Director business brief at the MAN base who said they were "pissed off" (his words) as MAD was already in the pipeline and MAN knew it. Yet they let an airline who they (MAN) had serious issues with potentially jeopardise what has been steady, consistent and reliable growth shown by Easyjet. IMO of course, competition isn't necassarilly a bad thing but MAN-MAD was in the pipeline. Routes take a while to come to fruition aswell and aren't usually announced on a whim. Indeed, those of you who truly know Easyjet these days will know that they actually pretty cautious when it comes to launching new routes/opportunities. Remember also that MAD came as part of a wider route launch ex MAN. MAD would have come to MAN regardless of FR.

[spacemonkeys]

Hi there

Out of interest has the construction of the new control tower started yet?
If not does anyone know when this is due to begin

Cheers

[james solomon]

What stands are the 2 WFU A320's of TCX parked on. I think it was 2013 a new ATC tower

[Jamie2k9]

An airline filled a gap so what, Easyjet may of had plans but they took to long to announce them and another carrier did instead. What is the big deal about it?
Manchester Airport can't stop an airlines from opening a route once they are paying full airport charges.

As Ryaniar and Easyjet couldn't both operate it from Liverpool why is MAN going to be different a few miles down the road. By the end if next March one of them will drop MAD but which one it remains to be seen.

In regard to summer 2012, have herd Faro and Ibiza on the cards for EZY.

[LN-KGL]

One Sixty until 4:
Norwegian website shows a resumption of their service to MAN from 31.10.11. arriving from Oslo.

DY1348 A 09.50 and returns as DY1349 D 10.20.

Good news and hopefully loads will be sustainable this time.
First green shoots of a recovery? And a vote of confidence in MAN.A resumption it is not. The previous time Norwegian flew to MAN from Bergen (BGO), not from Oslo (OSL) and the BGO flight had miserable loads. MAN is listed on the 4th place of destinations underserved from OSL, and I presume that's the reason for Norwegian will start to fly to MAN again. It is definitely not a vote of confidence for a recovery at MAN, but instead more question of differences in currency values - the pound (GBP) has lost over one quarter of its value compared with the Norwegian Kroner (NOK) the last years. In other words you will see more Norwegians traveling to the Northwest England, and I suspect a large share will be football fans. A small correction to the times One Sixty until 4 did show above:
Mondays/Wednesdays: arr. 09:50 dep. 10:20
Fridays: arr. 13:10 dep. 13:40

Some of you may want to see the difference in recovery/growth between MAN and OSL. The graph below shows the changes in 12 month rolling passenger numbers at both airports since the end of 2004. The year-on-year growth at MAN is now (at the end of May) +2.8% compared with +11.4% at OSL. In March 2010 both airports had 18.3 million passenger the previous 12 months and at the end of May this year the difference had grown to 2 million passenger per year (18.2 million vs 20.2 million). More and less the sole reason for the "recovery" at MAN is only the cancelling out of the Icelandic ash effect - the airport still hasn't reached the level they had for their 12 month rolling numbers in March 2010 (24,000 passengers are missing for that).

http://www.plane-spotter.com/Jpegs/450/MANvsOSL_2011-05.jpg

[MKY661]

I have heard rumours that Monarch are starting Madrid as well. Not bookable yet though but it was on wikipedia the other day.

Oh by the way is there a forum for Malaga Airport anywhere? Can't find one.

[MUFC_fan]

I have heard rumours that Monarch are starting Madrid as well. Not bookable yet though but it was on wikipedia the other day.


Likely but I'm not sure whether it will be Monarch of Air Europa operating the route. I hope the latter as it would open up even more connections throughout the Latin world.

[delta154]

Long time lurker first time poster.

LN-KGL, whilst I have no doubt the figures about MAN vs OSL growth are true and fairly accurate, the rest of your post is just drivel.

More and less the sole reason for the "recovery" at MAN is only the cancelling out of the Icelandic ash effect - the airport still hasn't reached the level they had for their 12 month rolling numbers in March 2010 (24,000 passengers are missing for that).

This is far from the truth. If the Growth is soley 'ash related', then why were passenger figures rising before the aforementioned event started to affect passenger numbers?
Also, are you also saying that as the growth is soley 'ash related', that the new EK flight, new QR flight, new TP flight, the 6th based easyjet unit, the new Ryanair flights, a new based Jet2 unit and upgrade from B733 to B738 on some routes, as well as increases across the board from the likes of BD/AA and so on are having ZERO effect on MAN?

Yes, I will agree that the overall pax figure is still down from 2007 levels, but, rome wasnt built in a day and its going to take time to build back up again. We cant just click our fingers and it be back to 2007 levels overnight. Theres also events out of MAN's control that have hit our pax figures, such as XL going belly up, the big 4 charter ops merging into 2, and the smaller carriers also going belly up such as Eurocypria, Turkuaz and Kibris. These dont exactly help matters.

Also, worth noting is that yes, the 12 month rolling pax figure is still not as high as once was, but, it is in the + figures for the first time in ages, so, its going in the right direction.

Things will still pick up though. We have easyjet confirming based unit number 7, as well as promising further growth. Ryanair have said they will still grow at MAN, Jet2 have announced 4 new routes which presumably means another based unit as only a 2 weekly REU has been dropped for 2012 so far. That with Air Asia X confirming MAN is on their radar, the new Norweigan service, the 2nd daily Etihad in August, growth from Monarch in 2012 and Tunisair going year round to MIR. It all helps.

So, not quite the doom and gloom. As a last bit, with the reductions in pax numbers at STN still going down, combined with the above increases at MAN, I would not be at all surprised if MAN reaches number 3 for busiest UK airport again this year.

[LN-KGL]

delta154:
This is far from the truth. If the Growth is soley 'ash related', then why were passenger figures rising before the aforementioned event started to affect passenger numbers?
Also, are you also saying that as the growth is soley 'ash related', that the new EK flight, new QR flight, new TP flight, the 6th based easyjet unit, the new Ryanair flights, a new based Jet2 unit and upgrade from B733 to B738 on some routes, as well as increases across the board from the likes of BD/AA and so on are having ZERO effect on MAN? Did the passenger numbers rise before the ash clouds came? As far as I see the last positive growth was in May 2008 before the April 2010 events. The graph below shows these monthly changes and the first growth came in October 2010 after a more an less constant decline since the Spring of 2007.

http://www.plane-spotter.com/Jpegs/450/MAN_2011-05_monthly_variations.jpg

The growth numbers since October 2010 has been like this:
October 2010 +28,996 passengers
November 2010 +21,924 passengers
December 2010 +18,822 passengers
January 2011 +62,552 passengers
February 2011 +39,011 passengers
March 2011 -44,809 passengers
April 2011 +351,352 passengers (+50,000 with ash effect subtracted)
May 2011 +160,106 passengers (+60,000 with ash effect subtracted)

The trend line in the graph takes in to effect the ash and shows a too low bottom and also a way too positive prognosis for June. It seems like around 300,000 passengers were affected in April 2010 and around 100,000 passengers and this must be subtracted from April and May this year to find the real growth. So the real growth now based on this last 8 months performance is around +2%. On a forum with dark bluegreen background colour I predicted some few months ago that MAN will end up with around 3% real growth for 2011. Translated in passenger numbers will this give around 18.6 million in 2011 (included the 400,000 no-ash-effect passengers).

The real problem for MAN has been to replace the charter segment that is in decline with LCCs. The nearby LPL and LBA have both profited on this.

http://www.plane-spotter.com/Jpegs/450/MAN_2011-05_3_flight_types.jpg

It is indeed more complex than looking into one segment with a short time horizon. The start of the decline in domestic passengers fits like hand in glow with the sale of BACon to flybe. The growth by Emirates more and less equals out the decline at BA to LHR and LGW. In other words, many passengers select Emirates in stead of BA (London Airways) for long haul destinations to the east.

The decline in passenger numbers between January 2005 and today for the charter and the domestic segment has been 4.7 million passengers, and only 2 million of these has been replace with "new" scheduled international passengers. The decline in domestic passengers versus the growth in scheduled intl. doesn't give a correct picture, but is partly a result of long haul passengers trying to bypass the two London airports.

[MKY661]

It also said that ZB were starting Bologna as well (15 April 2012) so I don't think it will be Air Europa

[delta154]

LN-KGL.

We may not be in posative growth yet, but we are in growth none-the-less.

The main contention is that you said:

More and less the sole reason for the "recovery" at MAN is only the cancelling out of the Icelandic ash effect

But your own figures prove the figures were growing before the ash affected passenger numbers:

October 2010 +28,996 passengers
November 2010 +21,924 passengers
December 2010 +18,822 passengers
January 2011 +62,552 passengers
February 2011 +39,011 passengers

So my main point was that the ash has helped skew the figures into an even bigger posative, but, it is not the 'sole' reason for the growth.

Also, I dont know where you studied maths, but, your 'trendlines' leave out a lot to be desired.
You say growth will only be around 2%, well, I disagree and think it will be more.
We have many more seats available this year compared to last, added to the general growth of the exsisting services to to a 'little' bit more disposable income, and without posting reams and reams of sums at this time of night, I expect overall yearly growth to be nearer 5-6%.

The real problem for MAN has been to replace the charter segment that is in decline with LCCs. The nearby LPL and LBA have both profited on this

This has been an issue in the past, but, MAN is now winning the passengers back through the loco growth. MAN actually has more loco operators than LPL and LBA now, probably more than both combined.
Easyjet has grown from the 2 based GB units in 2008 to 7 units next year, as opposed to LPL's 10 units considering the base has been open 10 years more than MAN. The RYR growth to other Euro-bases will more than likely continue, as will Jet2's growth. Monarch are about to become a fully fledged loco, with MAN the first base to benefit from this, then we have Air Berlin, Germanwings, Flybe and now Norwegian. LBA has 2 RYR aircraft, a Jet2 base now a similar size to MAN, a token flybe operation and thats about it for Loco. Liverpool has Wizz, Ryanair and Easyjet, with again a token flybe operation. So, its obvious MAN now once again has the tools to re-capture its lost passengers.

MAN is also actively trying to make sure it doesnt miss this boat again and have to play catch up, as its trying to make sure it is known to the loco long haul operators. Air Asia X has said MAN is on their radar for a launch within the next 12 months, the Air Canada loco has selected MAN as a departure point, and Jetstar Australia has quoted MAN as a destination in the past. Add this to the already operating Air Blue of Pakistan, and there we have it.

It may not be the 11.4% growth rate your beloved OSL is growing, but, MAN is on the up.

[roverman]

Hardly fair to compare MAN with OSL. OSL is a capital city airport built on huge central Government investment, and has no local competition. Fairly easy to sustain impressive growth in such a benign environment.

[The96er]

The day after FR announced MAN-MAD, There was a Director business brief at the MAN base who said they were "pissed off" (his words) as MAD was already in the pipeline and MAN knew it. Yet they let an airline who they (MAN) had serious issues with potentially jeopardise what has been steady, consistent and reliable growth shown by Easyjet.

So you're suggesting that any airline wishing to start MAN ops needs to ask for Easyjet's permission first just incase they plan on operating the route in the future !!

[delta154]

Also in response to Jamie2k9:

As Ryaniar and Easyjet couldn't both operate it from Liverpool why is MAN going to be different a few miles down the road. By the end if next March one of them will drop MAD but which one it remains to be seen

I consider MAN and DUB to be fairly similar markets, and if DUB can support 4-5 daily MAD, Im fairly confident MAN can support a 9 weekly service.
At the end of the day, there are a lot of routes that work at MAN that probably wouldnt at LPL, the prime example being Bremen. Ryanair moved it 'a few miles down the road', and it went from being a route with 80%+ load factors to being dropped. So it seems that 'few miles' makes a difference.
Ryanair has the low fares going for it, easyjet has the 2 big bases at each end, so, unless the 2 rumoured new flights of Air Europa and Air Nostrum come online, I dont see RYR or Easy going anywhere.

[easyflyer83]

GB Airways only had one based aircraft in 2008.

[roverman]

I must correct myself before someone else does. OSL does have competition from Torp and Rygge (Thank You, Google). Nevertheless, compared to MAN, OSL benefits from being a capital city and having the national flag carrier on board.

[Skipness One Echo]

having the national flag carrier on board.
Isn't that a hinderance? How many direct long haul routes do SAS offer from Oslo?
Precisely none ! The A330 / A340 fleets are based out of Copenhagen and Stockholm with Oslo a mere feeder to both. Does that sound familiar?

*runs and hides*

[delta154]

Isn't that a hinderance? How many direct long haul routes do SAS offer from Oslo?
Precisely none ! The A330 / A340 fleets are based out of Copenhagen and Stockholm with Oslo a mere feeder to both. Does that sound familiar?

Nothing was said about long haul from SAS.
The main difference is, how many scheduled routes does BA offer on its own metal from MAN? 2 (LHR/LGW), 3 if you count the sun air flight (BLL).
How many scheduled routes do SAS offer from Oslo? 45. Thats the main point. Im not turining this into another 'BA neglects the regions' thing just mearly pointing out the advantage OSL has with its flag carrier.

Oh and skipness, for the record, SAS does offer long haul from OSL, the SK907 to EWR. Its only one route, but its not 'precisely none'.

[airhumberside]

Jet2 have announced 4 new routes which presumably means another based unit as only a 2 weekly REU has been dropped for 2012 so far
Reus on sale 2xWeek alongside BCN which has just been upped from 4xWeek to 5xWeek

[delta154]

Reus on sale 2xWeek alongside BCN which has just been upped from 4xWeek to 5xWeek

Fantastic. In the words of that famous supermarket, every little helps!

:ok:

[mickyman]

LN-KGL

I am glad that Oslo is doing well.

MM

[pwalhx]

I 2nd mickeyman's comments, congratulations to Oslo well done, however it's relevance to Manchester, zero.

[roverman]

The rolling pax figure graphs at post #2144 make interesting reading. What we can see is that the steep decline in domestic traffic looks to have reached a natural base level now and is unlikely to decline much further. The effect of better rail service is now embedded and the only factor which might impact is transfer of international traffic away from connecting over London, choosing to connect at an overseas hub instead. This loss (segment transfer) might be offset to some extent by UK traffic connecting over MAN's increasing choices of route / carrier / frequency to major hubs.

Charter decline has flattened out, but if it continues it is likely to transfer to alternative loco flights, which are increasingly available at MAN, rather than leaking to LPL, LBA etc.

Full service 'legacy' flag carriers are not dead, and MAN is their most likely UK port of call once London opportunities have been exhausted. As well as TAP, I think we'll see a few more once-familiar tails back on the the apron before long.

[delta154]

Charter decline has flattened out, but if it continues it is likely to transfer to alternative loco flights, which are increasingly available at MAN, rather than leaking to LPL, LBA etc.

One thing to remember is, that whilst there is natural leakage to loco's, from the back end of 2008, the dip steepens due to XL going bust (sept 2008), TCX/MYT merger in effect from the end of 2007, and then the TOM/FCA merger taking effect in 2008. Add to that the smaller complanies like Turkuaz, Goldtrail and Eurocypria, these were all events beyond the control of MAN, so little they could do to counteract it.

Full service 'legacy' flag carriers are not dead, and MAN is their most likely UK port of call once London opportunities have been exhausted. As well as TAP, I think we'll see a few more once-familiar tails back on the the apron before long

I have heard that Iberia are very keen to get MAN up and running for september, OS to VIE is one always thrown about, Air Canada in their loco form (or maybe back in their regular format now Globespan/zoom arnt stealing their traffic, after all they have re-applied for slots in the past 2 years).

[delta154]

Reus on sale 2xWeek alongside BCN which has just been upped from 4xWeek to 5xWeek

Add to this PRG is now daily from next summer. It looks more than likely MAN will have 10 based units next year (4xB757, 3xB733, 3xB738)

[OltonPete]

SOE

Unlike you to be behind the times or am I being thick and it was a
deliberate mistake - don't answer that one!!!!!!!!!

SAS operate Newark A333 direct non-stop from Oslo SK907 started this year
and seems to be continuing this winter.

However I think there was a price to pay as I am sure Continental were
double daily in summer or 10/11 weekly and they reduced it back to daily.

Let me get this right, Manchester - Madrid is operated by Ryanair now,
easy soon plus Iberia and Monarch/Air Europa. A route which has not operated for a few years now has four potential airlines.

Yes, I saw the IAG story in ABTN and the Monarch article and nowhere did I see Manchester mentioned specifically - is this a case of two and two is five or are these credible rumours?

Am I right in thinking both Iberia and Monarch have operated Madrid in the past and the latter within the last five years?

Pete

[delta154]

Let me get this right, Manchester - Madrid is operated by Ryanair now,
easy soon plus Iberia and Monarch/Air Europa. A route which has not operated for a few years now has four potential airlines.

That is correct. Its history repeating. Once one carrier jumps on a route, 2-3 more join in, fight it out, route gets cut back/canned all together and sometimes, goes unserved for 3-4 years (MAD/BER-MAN), and PRG had WW/OK/LS but now just a daily LS next year.

Yes, I saw the IAG story in ABTN and the Monarch article and nowhere did I see Manchester mentioned specifically - is this a case of two and two is five or are these credible rumours?

Its a mix of the 2. Ive heard internally that ZB/AEU will launch MAN-MAD, and someone has seen a slot request for YW/IB (and these guys dont normally apply for MAN slots unless they plan to use).

The monarch rumours also seem to stem from the article that states the AEU/ZB co-operation, and a seperate article that states Monarch will have more Spanish destinations from MAN (and with BCN/AGP/ALC/PMI/IBZ/MAH/TFS/ACE/FUE/LPA/MJV/REU/GRO covered, it leaves SVQ/VLC/BIO/MAD/VGO/SVG. Combine this with the former article, its easy to see why has been singled out.

[Skipness One Echo]

SAS operate Newark A333 direct non-stop from Oslo SK907 started this year

Ah thanks Pete, that's interesting. Forgive my error, my reserach was from last year when I was going to CPH. I well remember IB MD87s at MAN, I wonder if the others will back off given FR's entry into the market. They seem to be doing a Gatwick as it were, a fair number of flights from offshore bases.

I seem to recall Air Canada apply for slots each year but don't operate alas, a return would be a natural fit, even on the B767-300s as before.

[OltonPete]

SOE

Re SK, I only remember from the excitement of the locals on another forum.
It was also announced after the UA/CO tie-up which basically means
Star competing with Star or I suppose you could say complementing
although I believe that there isn't any JV on the route.

I certainly remember Iberia operating from BHX and MAN, the latter
for a longer period but I was surprised that Air Nostrum did not get in
first with the arrival of the new CRJ-1000's rather than Ryanair.

Not quite sure what to make of the AEA/ZB tie-up but I suppose things
will become clearer in the near future. Gatwick - Madrid code-share,
yes I can see that but not so sure about Manchester now, or Luton (easyjet)
or BHX (320/321/73H I would have thought is too big for my local although
a AEA 195 would be good).

Just hope some of Manchester's Madrid magic can eventually work it's
way down the M6/M42 west (not East!).


Pete

[Jamie2k9]

While talking about MAN turning a corner when it comes to passenger numbers, what about when Bmibaby go in Oct. What will the loss be in passenger numbers.

[LN-KGL]

roverman:
Hardly fair to compare MAN with OSL. OSL is a capital city airport built on huge central Government investment, and has no local competition. Fairly easy to sustain impressive growth in such a benign environment. You are completely wrong with your comment even though you have moderated your statement a bit later. Let's look in to "the benign environment". Within a 50 mile radius from Oslo city centre there are three international airports. It's obvious that OSL is closest to the city - 24 mile to the north of the city centre. 36 miles due south of Oslo you will find Moss Airport, Rygge (RYG or Oslo Rygge in Ryanair language). RYG has flights to 38 different international (European) destinations (+ 2 charter destinations) and 3 domestic airports. On the west side of the Oslofjord and 50 miles outside Oslo to the southwest we have Sandefjord Airport Torp (TRF or Oslo Torp in Ryanair language). TRF has flights to 23 different international (European) destinations (+ 7 charter destinations) and 3 domestic airports. Both RYG and TRF are privately owned, they are strong competitors to OSL and both of them had around 1.5 million passengers in 2010. The population within a 50 mile circle around Oslo is close to 2 million (Greater Manchester has population of 2.6 million). From all three Oslo airports combined there direct flight to 131 domestic and international destinations/airports. In other words, the environment for OSL isn't that benign.

Now to your statement of "huge central Government investment". You are right that Avinor (the airport owner of OSL) isn't a private company, but I think it's easier to explain by quoting from their website:

Avinor operates 46 airports in Norway, thereof 12 in cooperation with the armed forces. Operations also include air traffic control towers, control centres and technical infrastructure for aircraft navigation.

Safety has the highest priority, and Avinor is responsible for maintaining the correct security level at all airports. We continuously work towards limiting environmentally harmful emissions to air and ground and towards reducing aircraft noise. The company is self-financing.

Avinor was established as a limited company, wholly owned by the state, on 1 January 2003. The ownership is administered by the Ministry of Transport and Communications.I have highlighted one sentence in the quotation above. We can from this conclude there are no huge government spending; in contrary Avinor has to pay a fixed dividend to the government. In fact the revenue generated at OSL goes to cover investments in new facilities, operations of airports for in other parts of Norway (like the STOLports in the northern part of the country), world class snow removal ...

If we concentrate on airport charges given in the latest "Schedule of Charges and Terms and Conditions of Use" by MAN and compare what you need to pay at OSL - the winner is easy to pick out, and it is OSL with a close to 30% margin. The charges at MAN is almost equal to the ones at AMS, but not as steep as the ones at LHR. I suspect MAN too sort of "subsidize" the other airports in MAG plc system (Bournemouth, East Midlands and Humberside).

So to a small hint to delta154: the Icelandic ash effect from Vatnajökull happened in April and May of 2010 and that is 5 months before the new growth resumed. With the regards to math studies, I think you don't need to worry about that. Let's pretend you didn't see the trend line and concentrate on the area in red and compare it with the green area and what is by far the largest? The area difference represent around 2.7 million passengers lost since 2004 or if we compare with the all time high in July 2006 - it is around 4 million passengers lost.

I have followed MAN closely for over nine years now, both as an anorak and as an analyst, and it has indeed been a roller coaster ride these nine years. During my first visit to MAN in May 2002 the 757 was the most common aircraft and it flew charter flights. I still dream about the swanky green and blue JMC colours on long sleek 757-300 taking off ... wait a minute, aren't the two of the colours MAN uses on their website today?

Let's rather continue with the present. As you say delta154, there is indeed a number of new flights either listed or started. What will the loads be and what yield can be achieved for these new additions? Will the majority of these new passenger be British or of other nationalities? The latest forecasts from HM Treasury released six days ago shows a predicted GDP growth in 2011 to be 1.5% and in 2012 +2.1%. Accord to ONS, at the end of 2010 general government debt was £1105.8 billion (equivalent to 76.1% of GDP) and the debt is still rising dangerously fast. Am I the only getting a cold Icesave feeling here? It may well be that some airlines have been overly optimistic. There are some signs of such a reaction at one particular airport in my part of Europe - and it's at Copenhagen (CPH). The growth vehicle for CPH is a national route development programme named Global Connected, and the programme gives start help over three years to new routes. The first sign of over expansion came with the Delta Airlines announcement the day after they had opened a new route to CPH in May saying Delta will discontinue all flights to CPH from mid September due to low yield and poor loads. I will cross my fingers for MAN and let's hope this will not happen at MAN.

[delta154]

LN-KGL

Like has been said before, well done to OSL for its growth considering its 'huge competition', but also like has said before, its not relevent. OSL has had a different set of circumstances and has probably benefited in ways MAN couldnt. Due to the UK's insistance of sorting every other countrys debts first, and the a lot of the country spending money they didnt have, of course MAN was going to suffer!

So to a small hint to delta154: the Icelandic ash effect from Vatnajökull happened in April and May of 2010 and that is 5 months before the new growth resumed. With the regards to math studies, I think you don't need to worry about that

I think you have got the wrong end of a very very big stick here. The CAA figures compare one year to last, so, when the figures were up from October 2010 onwards, the ash cloud was nothing to do with it. The ash only affected the airport in April and may with closures, so, when people refer to 'the ash affect, it was only for April/May 2011 where the figures were significantly up due to flights operating in these 2 months that didnt in 2010.
Was MAN closed in October? No. November? No. Therefore Growth was MAN's own, not ash related.

The latest forecasts from HM Treasury released six days ago shows a predicted GDP growth in 2011 to be 1.5% and in 2012 +2.1%

So you are basing MAN's growth on this alone. Oh silly me, I forgot no foreign nationals use MAN whatsoever! :ugh:

I have followed MAN closely for over nine years now, both as an anorak and as an analyst, and it has indeed been a roller coaster ride these nine years. During my first visit to MAN in May 2002 the 757 was the most common aircraft and it flew charter flights. I still dream about the swanky green and blue JMC colours on long sleek 757-300 taking off ... wait a minute, aren't the two of the colours MAN uses on their website today?

Fail to see what this has to do with anything?

While talking about MAN turning a corner when it comes to passenger numbers, what about when Bmibaby go in Oct. What will the loss be in passenger numbers

Probably no overall loss. Easyjet will have an extra aircraft, as will jet2 That directly replaces the 2 WW units, and adds to it as an A320/B757 is more capacity than the B733. Then there is monarch growth as well as some more in the pipeline. Then MAN confidently said ALL baby routes will continue be served. In other words, were not worried.

[Vuelo]

Is there any truth in the rumour of a 2x MAN-CMB service from UL about to be announced starting November, along with a 3x weekly MAN-SFO-AKL with Air New Zealand?

[delta154]

Is there any truth in the rumour of a 2x MAN-CMB service from UL about to be announced starting November

They have stated MAN is in their plans, but that was months ago and heard nothing since.

along with a 3x weekly MAN-SFO-AKL with Air New Zealand

Id doubt it, they have been 'coming' for years according to rumours. Depends where you heard it?

However, Andrew Harrison and the head of route development have gone to China to cross the T's and dot the I's on a new route though apparently?

[MANFlyer]

Came in on LX390 from ZRH at just after 8am yesterday and was greeted with an unbelieveable immigration queue that was already most of the way down the corridor on the C pier when we arrived and I saw it go back up past the gates on C. It was mayhem and there were a lot of very unhappy folk in that queue I can tell you.

We were ok with IRIS/chipped Passports but even then we had to fight to get down the corridor to get the chance to get to them.

I haven't come in on LX390 for a few months so was this a freak or is this usual ?. Either way it is totally unacceptable and needs sorting, sharpish. I saw an EK A330 on B pier (which I presume is a new service ?) but surely that alone didn't cause all that.

Well as I came in again on the same LX181/LX390 combo last week, and after slamming them above, I thought it only fair to update on my latest experience.

As we landed I saw the EK A330 on the taxiway having landed ahead of us. After my initial thoughts of 'Oh FFS, here we go again' I got increasingly happier as it stopped rooted on the taxiway waiting for the 'EK gate' at the end of B pier. There was a Monarch A320 still at the gate and I was pleased to see that even after we got to out gate at C the EK bird was still waiting.

I was first off and was delighted to see that not only was there no queue in the corridor but I was the first and only person at the passport desks. No need for Iris or chipped passport gates and I was out and through less than 10 mins after doors were opened. :ok:

What I did find rather strange, and I have to say, amusing, was my car was parked on the T3 short stay car park and after schlepping over there from T1 when I exited the lift on the top floor of the car park I could see that the EK 330 was still waiting for it's gate.

[delta154]

MANflyer.

Thanks for the update, hopefully this goes to show the queues you suffered last time weren't the incompetency of MAN, but just the sheer volume of people at that particular time (maybe offloading just as you pulled in).

What I did find rather strange, and I have to say, amusing, was my car was parked on the T3 short stay car park and after schlepping over there from T1 when I exited the lift on the top floor of the car park I could see that the EK 330 was still waiting for it's gate

More thank likely the Monarch pushing late, but, youd have thought the EK would have opted for another gate, as plenty of gates capable of handling the A330 at T1 (or maybe there wasnt one as all full). If it was the former, then its down to EK for insisting on the gate. If its the latter, then I think MAN needs to sort itself out before allowing more AM flights at T1.

[Check Mags On]

I heard the conversation between ground and the Emirates, and it was at Emirates insistence that they waited for that gate.

[MKY661]

Wasit at Pier B? I don't usually see any Emirates at Pier C. In fact Monarch usually use Pier C don't they?

[Hamburg 2K8]

Flew to Dublin last Saturday with FR from T2. All went smoothly, first time in T2 since 2003. New security area much better and efficent. Termainal looking very clean and today, not surprised the amount of waste bins they had along the gate areas. How many stands has the car park at the end of T2 taken up. I noticed nearly all the airbridge stands were occupied and the SQ had a remote stand. Is this just for the summer season?

Landed back on Sunday, proper braking action on landing on 23R, took a while to stop but I can see why 23R/05L needs re-surfacing, looks a bit of a state. As does taxiway Alpha passing over the road and past the AVP. Anyway, overall a nice pleasent return journey through MAN and DUB and even FR. I quite like the 737-800, much prefer my A319/A320 on EZY though.

[MKY661]

The runway is currently being worked on at night but not every night just some days of the week

[Check Mags On]

MKY661
The Monarch was on stand 12 on Pier B. Which is Emirates usual stand.
You see Monarch scattered all around Pier B and C.

[easyflyer83]

Easyjet will move to T1 in November. They will be using B pier predominantly with check in being where Monarch currently are.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Well, regular posters on here will be delighted to note that I am back [Boo Hiss!]. Actually, I'm back from Bilbao having sampled the new EasyJet service ex-MAN. The load factor was most impressive in both directions - very few unoccupied seats on tonight's [Tuesday] inbound service. Fortunately, one of the few empty seats was next to me. As you all know, I am such a lovable upbeat character that I find this very surprising. But perhaps my designer stubble (shaving kit is extra weight) and rancid BO (hiking Bilbao and Santurtzi in blazing sunshine all day) worked their charms! Lots of Bilbao-originating customers, by the way.

But on to serious stuff. What an active board during my absence. And my compliments to contributor LN-KGL in particular for some fascinating postings. The material concerning Oslo I take at face value; I don't doubt your expertise regarding this airport. But of course, the data presented for MAN was of particular interest. And - in the finest traditions of the Manchester thread - it drew a predictable response. A lengthy posting listing all the recent new services attracted by MAN, but studiously neglecting to mention any contemporary setbacks. My compliments to the poster who inconveniently reminded us of the loss of the two remaining BMI Baby B733's.

There remains a small minority of contributors on this board who perceive a duty to defend Manchester Airport as if it were a football team. Any mention of bad news will not be tolerated, and must be glossed over if raised at all. Other airlines are expanding at MAN, so that's OK then. No, it is not OK. Losing a based carrier is a big deal, and we must factor it into our thinking. It is clearly not a sign that all is well and that unbounded optimism is warranted regardless.

The true state of play at MAN (and indeed at all airports) is best discerned by BALANCING the good news and the bad news to establish a reliable forecast encompassing all the variables. It is ridiculous to reel off a list of new services as if to say "so there!!!" and not acknowledge the debit column. On these boards, such postings differentiate the enthusiastic cheerleaders from the real-world analysts (such as Skipness and LN-KGL). Reliable trends can only be identified from the big picture overview, not from selected highlights drawn from the "goals for" column. Thus, LN-KGL's forecast of a +3% growth trend gets shouted down. Is it because the figure isn't what readers WANT to see, or is it because it isn't what they EXPECT to see? Heart or head? Be honest here.

The casual dismissal of GDP forecasts posted by LN-KGL is typical. Some may prefer to dream a rosy scenario and bend the facts to fit, but statistics such as these cannot be ignored if you prefer meaningful data to fanciful speculation. Amateurs may prefer to look away from unflattering economic data, but aviation professionals can't afford to. Airlines are often notoriously late in recognizing economic trends, but once they do recognize them they must act decisively. In this industry, the alternative is extinction. I just hope that afew companies are taking full advantage of the mid-summer dip in oil prices to hedge their forthcoming requirements ... some will miss the opportunity as usual.

The airline industry in the UK is still facing headwinds. Taxes are high, politicians are unsympathetic preferring to show off their "green credentials". The Arab Spring has become an Arab Summer and there is no end in sight. 'Club Med' is restless too. The European Sovereign Debt Crisis refuses to go away and threatens devastating ramifications well beyond what we have witnessed so far (defaults, euro break-up, bank insolvencies in consequence, more "QE"). The US is allegedly intending to end (pause?) "QE" currency creation at the end of June; this has been the only thing keeping the markets from meltdown. The terrorism threat has not gone away; following the Bin Laden humiliation pressure for a "spectacular" has risen.

Does anybody here really believe that such realities don't matter to the aviation industry generally, and to the outlook for MAN in particular? I assure you, economic reality matters a great deal, and it will drive the true outlook for MAN whether we like it or not.

So by all means take pleasure from the recent crop of good news at MAN ... I do (really!). But don't ignore / edit out / shout down the contributors who include the bad alongside the good. We are all best served by balanced reporting and discussion on here. Let's (please) avoid drifting back to the 'North Korean News Agency' level of discussion again.

Regards. SHED.

[delta154]

Hi shed

Firstly, thanks for the lengthy, detailed reply. Quite informative, however, I think there are a few things that need to be addressed.

Other airlines are expanding at MAN, so that's OK then. No, it is not OK. Losing a based carrier is a big deal, and we must factor it into our thinking. It is clearly not a sign that all is well and that unbounded optimism is warranted regardless.

Yes, loosing 2 based units isnt great news, and maybe there is another story hidden in amongst this. However, not more than 2 months after this news, other carriers announced their intention to base 2 more units into MAN for 2012, and, Andrew Harrison saying ALL ex-baby routes will continue to be served in 2012. Sign of bad times? Maybe. Sign of a carrier that couldnt organise a piss up in a brewery? More likely.

from the real-world analysts (such as Skipness and LN-KGL). Reliable trends can only be identified from the big picture overview, not from selected highlights drawn from the "goals for" column. Thus, LN-KGL's forecast of a +3% growth trend gets shouted down. Is it because the figure isn't what readers WANT to see, or is it because it isn't what they EXPECT to see? Heart or head? Be honest here

I shouted this down due to the fact I think predicting future trends is about as useful as fortune telling. Just because traffic was down in months of X, Y Z, does not guarantee that the same would be for month A. Just because Mr Jones goes for his paper at 0900 every day without fail, means he defiantly will tomorrow.
Quite frankly, you can analyse figures until your fingers turn blue and you get a banging headache, but, the simple fact is, you never know what will happen tomorrow?

The thing is, that despite the debt, despite the arab spring, despite sky high oil, despite any other world event, traffic is still going up at MAN, so what does that tell you. Well personally, it tells me that MAN isnt following the world events at the moment, otherwise traffic would be going down. Thats not to say it wont be caught out at a later date, but, for now, can we not focus on the wrist slitting, and actually celebrate the sucess of our little airport. You can say 'told you so' if/when traffic goes down, but at the moment, the British stigma of 'never happy' seems to ring true.

In regards to LN-KGL, I wasn't mearly shouting down bad news, more questioning his statement of 'MAN growth is solely ash related', which is utter tosh. The ash had very little effect on October-March figures. The only way it did effect them is if some little man in his house suddenly decided mid December ''oh, there's no ash, I'm going on holiday!''

[mickyman]

delta154

'I shouted this down due to the fact I think predicting future trends is about as useful as fortune telling. Just because traffic was down in months of X, Y Z, does not guarantee that the same would be for month A. Just because Mr Jones goes for his paper at 0900 every day without fail, means he defiantly will tomorrow.
Quite frankly, you can analyse figures until your fingers turn blue and you get a banging headache, but, the simple fact is, you never know what will happen tomorrow?'


To dismiss statistical analysis in such a flippant way is in my opinion - silly.
People get paid a lot of money to be able to predict trends these days.
Why do you think Delta is giving a winter break to 154 for example.
Manchester is STILL nowhere near what it was on passenger numbers alone - but the trend seems upward compared to the recent past - that is good.Airlines introduce new services because they analyse or predict
futures - its not just a shot in the dark.

MM

[delta154]

To dismiss statistical analysis in such a flippant way is in my opinion - silly.
People get paid a lot of money to be able to predict trends these days.

And your saying these high paid analysts dont get it wrong? What about the ones who issued loans to millions of people predicting they would be paid back? What about the analysts at baby who do not see a based future at MAN but other airlines do? At the end of the day, you can use past figures to look at trends, but I stand by what I said, looking at past trends only paints half the picture. Look at the ash crisis. Just because something happens one year does not mean the same pattern will happen again.
Look at 9/11, whos to say MAN wouldnt be at 25million passengers a year if that didnt happen. Look at the CX pilot dispute, who is to say CX would have pulled MAN if that didnt happen.
Im not saying analysts are obsolete, Im just saying future projections arnt guranteed, or will deffinatly happen, is a prediction backed up with past statistics.

Why do you think Delta is giving a winter break to 154 for example

But on the flip side, why does American see demand for the winter and staying year round on JFK this year? This is what Im saying, one persons prediction may not match someone elses.

[Skipness One Echo]

DAL154 is taking a winter break? Hmmm does that mean he has to change his username? (again?)

But on the flip side, why does American see demand for the winter and staying year round on JFK this year? This is what Im saying, one persons prediction may not match someone elses.
Quite a lot has been written of late. Quite a lot indeed.
Firstly there is more than one variable in play. The demand may be there year round. You could fill seats. You may even make money. However the asset may also be used better elsewhere on your network so the carrier may rightly be summer only in the face of apparent demand.

Yes we analysts do on occasion get it wrong, however it can depend whether you are preaching to a closed mind or whether more factors are in play than straight P&L. There may be a strategic reason underpinning matters which explain why a decision seems to go against the data presented.

I shouted this down due to the fact I think predicting future trends is about as useful as fortune telling.
Please don't shout people down on here, most are intelligent and deserve to be listened to. Actually a mature understanding of past behaviours is a pretty good guide to future trends, not a gaurantee of course but when one has confidence in the information and we can be certain it's not being skewed for political (or strategic) purposes then it can be invaluable. It's why some comapnies survive and some go under. Ask Don Burr about data and how American CEO Bob Crandall killed his company with it. (Actually he may be dead by now so best not to try but the point stands)

Im not saying analysts are obsolete
What do you suggest then? All sit round and have a chat, form a consensus about the strategy and move forward without hard data and proper stats? Guess what, without those analysts and forward predictions, you get no credit line, no financing, no future, no jobs, no way will you get shiny new aircraft without a solid business case hence no company. Heavens above!
I would say more but I'm on my lunch at work and have more obsolete analytics to waste people's time with it seems.

Core message? Manchester's forward planning was derailed by fragmentation of the local market with the rise of LPL and LBA and long haul suffers *slightly* from being too close to Heathrow in some ways but on a European comparisone level is still oversubscribed. The loss of BA is overstated, the loss of WW is more of a loss to them I think.

Stop looking at YOY ( Year in Year), take a step back, look at what's happened in the last ten years and understand that the airport is back on track but that the vision that was presented back pre 9-11 isn't the one that is realistic now. The good thing about the people on here is that some have long memories and have seen the cycle some two and three times now.

[delta154]

I would say more but I'm on my lunch at work and have more obsolete analytics to waste people's time with it seems.

See, I was reading down your post, agreeing with what you wrote, but then I saw this comment. It was a bit childish considering you actually highlighted my quote which states 'Im not suggesting analysts are obsolete', but then seemed to go down the path of assuming that I was saying you were anyway. Not a good twist of words there.
I was not trying to offend in any way, but you seem to have made your own mind up on that.

Actually a mature understanding of past behaviours is a pretty good guide to future trends, not a gaurantee of course

That sentence, written by an analyst is the entire point I am trying to make. Yes, past trends can show certain things, but, is not the be all and end all. At the end of the day, the world changes on a daily basis. I know its very unlikely, but, what if Gadaffi is captured tomorrow, and western companies get their hands on the oil again, bringing prices down. What if Syria suddenly sorts itself out, what if the austerity measures actually work and the UK/Europe prospers. On the flipside, what if another 9/11 type event happened? What if oil suddenly skyrockets further? Its just so hard to predict.
Thisngs like seasonal changes and 10 years worth of data can be used to predict to some degree, but not all of it.

[Cazza_fly]

Any MAN related rumours/news to post... the above thread is starting to get boring, it looks like an old posters back on here?:confused:

[mickyman]

delta154

see.....even you are beginning to analyse

My job here is done !!

MM

[Going loco]

I was thinking the same cazza. Don't know where that poster went but looks like he didn't wanna be there anymore

[MKY661]

Hello, since EasyJet are using the Monarch check-in desks where will Monarch check-in. I hope it's not Ground Level (Where Jet2 are)

[partyboy_uk]

It has been rumoureed about here for a while now that Monarch will be moving to T2. I was speaking to a bloke from the airport authority not long ago and he said it is all but confirmed. I suspect it will be in November, given the above.

He also said at the time that Monarch were looking for a lounge there too. It does make sense as I know they are currently reviewing the benefits of their frequent flyer Vantage clubcard holders, after withdrawing complimentary lounge access a couple of years ago.

[Hamburg 2K8]

Is there enough room available for Monarch at T2 in the morning with all them TOM flights etch? Also, If room is going to be made at T1 with Monarch's departure, why can't EZY use Pier C too. I don't like the current Pier B. I'll be flying with EZY to HAM in December and to Sharm Next May. Or will Jet 2 now move over to Pier C so EZY will have most stands on Pier B? Gates 4, 6, 8 & 10 are in a terrible state looking from the outside, the other side (East) isn't as bad but doesn't have the advantage of airbridges.

[IB4138]

Do easyJet realise what a retrograde step this move is?

T1, especially pier B is a slum compared to T3.

Move Flybe to T1 if someone must move.

I say this as a frequent easy passenger.

[Hamburg 2K8]

Here here! T3 is great for EZY. I like T1 and in some ways Pier C but not Pier B and the no room to swing a cat mornings. Haven't seen gate 12 from the inside before haven't been to T1 since last summer but there won't be any chance of having this stand I assume. MAN please keep EZY at T3.

On another note, are Thomas Cook moving to T2 too? I think T2 is designed much better for the likes of CO & EK etc with T1 charter and T3 low cost.

[TSR2]

Do easyJet realise what a retrograde step this move is?

T1, especially pier B is a slum compared to T3.

I don't think easyjet passengers will care very much which Terminal they fly from.

[opnot]

TSR2
And what may you be implying

[The96er]

The plan for Monarch in T2 is to have busing departures on remote stands for the first wave and the majority of the second wave departures. As I understand it, a good financial incentive was offered by the Airport which Monarch accepted.

Do easyJet realise what a retrograde step this move is?

T1, especially pier B is a slum compared to T3.


Although B pier itself is not as good as T3, the rest of the terminal is quite nice since the renovation.

If room is going to be made at T1 with Monarch's departure, why can't EZY use Pier C too.

Although the plan is to use B pier for EZY, no doubt the day to day logistics of the airport will entail EZY using C pier too.

On another note, are Thomas Cook moving to T2 too?

TCX are to remain in T1, however, I'm not too sure what the plan is with regards LH/LX moving to T3 to be with partner airline BMI.

[IB4138]

Although B pier itself is not as good as T3, the rest of the terminal is quite nice since the renovation.

Unfortunately, no matter how you dress T1 up, it is still showing its age and is in need of demolition and rebuild. I personally do not like the revamped T1. It's a mess and unpleasant.

[MKY661]

Pier B is being done up. I arrived at Gate 9 in April and it does look quite good. Not finished yet though.

I don't want Monarch to move to T2, they have been in T1 for years. I thought T2 was going to be mainly for charter flights in the future, so I think TCX should move, yet again they have been in T1 for years.

Won't Virgin Atlantic move to T1 as well because of the A380?

[Jamie2k9]

Aer Lingus to further increase MAN - DUB routes this winter. There will be 4 daily flights everyday except Tuesday and Saturday which will be 3 daily. The total weekly flights will be 26. This compares to Ryanairs 20 weekly flights.

[TSR2]

TSR2
And what may you be implying

Certainly not implying anything. The majority of passengers of all mainly leisure airlines could not give two hoots which terminal they fly from.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

MKY661 - Virgin Atlantic has not disclosed any plans to deploy A380 equipment at MAN. Their current operation uses A333 & B744 equipment, and I am not aware of any plans to change from those types in the medium term. And of course, the A333 has only just been deployed here; it is likely to be a MAN fixture for a long time to come. Therefore, if they do decide to switch terminals it would be purely based upon commercial considerations; their MAN fleet is compatible with either T1 or T2 as preferred by the company.

[TSR2]

Unfortunately, no matter how you dress T1 up, it is still showing its age and is in need of demolition and rebuild. I personally do not like the revamped T1. It's a mess and unpleasant.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this. Each time I have flown from T1 over the last couple of years it has been a very pleasant experience. I will agree that the layout of Pier B is not ideal and perhaps is now approaching it sell by date but the Terminal itself is fine. Obviously you have a different opinion and I respect your views on this.

[learjet50]

Re your comment re moving FlyBe to T1

Why

They are the biggest user of T3 and use it all day wheras EZY use it a lot they do have there peaks and troughs

BE have everthing set uu in T3 Ticket desk //Crew Room// Engineering etc etc and have been there a good number of years




You just cant move 1 Airline to suit another

I cannot see in 1 Million years BE goint to T1 as there are no Domestic arrival stands for 1 and there operation from T3 works really well as they can combine Int/Dom flights and v v without moving A/c around

Fly Be is T3 for along time to come

sorry move the newcomers about not the scheduled long time users


Gezza:ugh:

[LN-KGL]

Since I was so successful with my previous posts - I try one more. This time I will only concentrate om MAN and the international scheduled flight. The tables below are based on the provisional international air passenger traffic May 2011 report from UK CAA. There is a difference between what MAN has reported and UK CAA has reported of 4,345 passengers. I have sorted the different countries after the biggest growth in the number of passengers.

http://www.plane-spotter.com/Jpegs/450/Manchester_intl_sch_2011-05_countries.jpg

http://www.plane-spotter.com/Jpegs/450/Manchester_intl_sch_2011-05_continent.jpg

The biggest growth has clearly been to European destinations and almost no growth on Trans Atlantic flights (the small growth is to Canada - US has even a small decline). The two US destinations with the most decline were Orlando (-17.5%) and Philadelphia (-10.9%). With that it is crystal clear which airlines have been effected.

I've also looked in to the passenger load for Emirates, and dependent on if they use high or low density aircraft the combined load is between 66.5% and 74.6%. I suspect Emirates has used a mix and the passenger load will therefore be somewhere between the two percentages I wrote. If EK21/22 had been discontinued (usually flown with the A332), EK17/18 and EK19/20 would combined had a passenger load between 86.1% and 95.4%.

A bit about the ash closures in May 2010. The last day of ash closures in Europe in 2010 was on 17 May. On 16th I was supposed to fly home to Norway via Amsterdam from Humberside (easy to guess the airline I suppose). Humberside was closed due ash, as was MAN and the majority of other British airports. I ended up driving all the way down to Ashford to catch the next day early bureaucrat Eurostar to Brussels and fly home from there via Copenhagen to Oslo. An expensive experience since only business tickets were available.

[mybrico]

Errrr so and your point is?

[easyflyer83]

Certainly not implying anything. The majority of passengers of all mainly leisure airlines could not give two hoots which terminal they fly from.

The same could be said for pretty much any type of passenger. Some people believe the business/industry pax to be a high spender, big demander in terms of terminal provision. In reality, they are the ones more likely not to give two hoots. Aslong as they have their wi fi, coffee shop and somewhere to buy a newspaper they tend not to care. In contrast, the airport experience is quite often part and parcel for the leisure flyer who want the shops to browse and buy in, that splash out on meals at the airport and who generally enjoy being at the airport. The same goes regardless of airline. GB Airways passengers moaned at the lack of shops in T3 (remember they were nearly all leisure pax-and not always the usual BA pax) and the same complaint persists at Easyjet. T3 is a nice terminal IMO and up until now has suited EZY well but T1 is where they're heading.

[ian_h1]

As the MD states that the plan (within 10 years) is now to merge T1 & t3 back into one larger terminal (http://www.businesstraveller.com/manchester) I wonder if this will give them the short term opportunity to finally address Pier B with less disruption.

[LN-KGL]

mybrico:
Errrr so and your point is?

I thought you at least would start wonder why these changes have happened at MAN? Or don't you care at all and just hang around here?

Let me start with the most obvious then - the really large plus for the Netherlands. With only one airport served in that country, Amsterdam (AMS), it's easy to indentify the two carriers that fly to this country - easyJet and KLM. Next question may well be: Which of the carriers has added capacity since May last year? Now you get closer to the answer if it is the coffeeshops in Amsterdam that is of interest or flying through the KLM hub to destinations around the world. If it shows signs of the latter, this can also explain why the number of passengers goes down on the domestic destinations Heathrow and Gatwick.

Spain and Cyprus is very obvious - sun and no unrest like in Egypt or Greece.

Now you can continue with the country on the third spot, Germany. Was it Lufthansa or the other carriers that took the largest piece of growth cake? The UK CAA reports gives a lot of information all the way down to destination level. And if you look at this level you know it is not Frankfurt and Munich that grew most, but Dusseldorf and Hamburg. Both airports served by Lufthansa, and both can be charaterized as mini hubs for that airline. Both airports are also spotter friendly (I suspect important for some of you here) with visitor terraces for that type of activity. Or is it respectively flybe at DUS and easyJet at HAM that took the main share of the growth?

One thing is for certain, there is a significant change in where the passengers want to fly and don't want to fly on international scheduled flight from MAN.

[TSR2]

Totally agree with everything you say but that is preference. My point was that I have never heard of anyone who will not book a potential holiday or holiday flight soley because the airline flies from a particular terminal. I would even go as far as saying that 95% of passengers have no idea which terminal they will fly from at the time of booking.

[IB4138]

sorry move the newcomers about not the scheduled long time users

Sorry to split hairs learjet 50 , but easyJet was formed in 1995, whereas the Flybe name has only been around since 2002 and in it's former guise as British European since 2000.

GB airways, who easyJet took over, was founded in 1931, whereas the infant Jersey European airlines was only formed in 1979. If you dig back further into these airline's pasts, you may find it interesting to find just who is the newcomer.

[FL370 Officeboy]

Sorry to split hairs learjet 50 , but easyJet was formed in 1995, whereas the Flybe name has only been around since 2002 and in it's former guise as British European since 2000.

GB airways, who easyJet took over, was founded in 1931, whereas the infant Jersey European airlines was only formed in 1979. If you dig back further into these airline's pasts, you may find it interesting to find just who is the newcomer.

Very useful history lesson, but mostly irrelevant.

As far as Flybe vs Easyjet operation from MAN is concerned, Easyjet is very much the newcomer.

[Skipness One Echo]

Commercially there are problems moving flybe to T1 as there will be a redevelopment cost in adapting the flow for domestic traffic. As easyJet don't fly domestic out of MAN they are a better candidate for the move, added to the fact the mix of destinations and equipment is similar to what T1 already handles a lot of.

Mind you it would not be impossible to adapt the B Pier for more domestics as they already have a split with some of the gates being served from T3 with 02B / C / D / E already set up. flybe at T3 is for the most part a waste of an airbridge.

As said above there seems to be a good case for combining T1 and T3 into an expanded T1. The need for an exclusive BA facility is not what it once was. Worked at Heathrow with T1 and T2, would work even better at MAN.

[Ian Brooks]

The T3 set for Flybe really goes back to BA days when it was built for them operating
B737 etc then of course it went down hill with the EMB-145 which could not use airbridges then the take over of all BA non London operation by Flybe which
does not operate any aircraft except EMB-195 that can use the bridges so the
bridges are under used.

Ian B

[mickyman]

LN-KGL

You are far too Anal for most of the spotters on here....

There is a difference between the 'feel good' factor and the
actual numbers game - we get it - do you ?

MM

[TartinTon]

Plus there was still ash disruption affecting northern airports intermittently until 16May...not really a like-for-like comparison and not exactly a set of statistics that you can draw any meaningful conclusions from....

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hmmm ... I would have to respectfully disagree with that. I can draw very meaningful conclusions from stats such as Egypt traffic down by 80.2% (notwithstanding the ash disruption). That table nicely demonstrates the redistribution of the inclusive tour market following the 'Arab Spring' etc. And the fact that certain markets have been devastated ... a point discussed at length on here some time ago when a poster forecast a bumper summer for MAN based only upon changes in the scheduled sector of the market.

I consider the data posted by LN-KGL to be quite illuminating and thank him for taking the trouble to post it.

[TartinTon]

Shed, don't disagree with your Arab spring point affecting Egypt but when you think about ash negatively affecting last years stats and the extended holiday period this year skewing this years stats it makes for some fairly meaningless comparisons generally.

[Vuelo]

I thought EZY were starting flights to Belfast from MAN....isn't that domestic? How is that going to work from T1 then?

[AircraftOperations]

I suppose they could be bussed straight into Baggage Reclaim as per Irish flights, which are basically classed as domestic?

[LN-KGL]

Shed-on-a-Pole, you have to remember the passenger numbers in the table above are for scheduled flights only, not charter flights. The changes in number of charter flight passengers differs from scheduled (may be it takes longer to react to changes in that type of business?). Here are the results for the two North African countries with unrest
Tunisia: -84.3% = -8,414 passengers
Egypt: -21.4% = -7,634 passengers
Greece has also had some unrest the last months due to their poor economic outlook
Greece: -7.0% = -6,497 passengers

[jabird]

"And if you look at this level you know it is not Frankfurt and Munich that grew most, but Dusseldorf and Hamburg. Both airports served by Lufthansa, and both can be charaterized as mini hubs for that airline. Both airports are also spotter friendly (I suspect important for some of you here) with visitor terraces for that type of activity."

Sorry but I have to be even more anal here!

Firstly, I don't think either DUS or HAM are taking transfer pax in the same way that FRA and, to a lesser extent MUC do. I think virtually all of this traffic will be o&d, whether with LH or not. DUS does of course offer plenty of onward options by rail, and is effectively a 'Cologne North', 'Dortmund West' etc much more so than NRN is a Dusseldorf NW!

Secondly, are you seriously suggesting people fly to either of these cities to hang around on the viewing terrace? I will admit to having visited DUS for such a purpose on the way between AMS & FRA by train, but I have always had an interest in transport architecture. On any one flight I would usually expect to place myself firmly in a minority of 1, except on the rare occassion that I shared a LTN-SXF sector with two colleagues!

If you are suggesting that people fly to Germany for genuine geek appeal, then fair enough, but they will usually sail through the airports without much of a pause, even if on the whole, German airports are of a much higher standard than our own.

Of course, the powers that be @MAN should bear this in mind when they are planning their 'airport city'. Architects basically design swanky features to impress politicians and other architects. For everyone else, they build shopping malls.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

LN-KGL - Thankyou for the clarification. SHED.

[JSCL]

A lot of delays at MAN today in and out?

About to set off to pick someone up from MAN and that's delayed too.

[learjet50]

Your Point is ??:confused:

[johnnychips]

Probably asking if anyone here knows reason for delays.

[LN-KGL]

jabird, you're spot on with Airport City just being a large mall and its purpose is to create more revenue for the airport owner. The concept of an airport city, also called aerotropolis, is now a close to 20 year old. In 1992 Mall of America opened just outside the perimeter fences of Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport, and this was three years before the French anthropologist Marc Augé came out with his essay "Non-Places: Introduction to an Anthropology of Supermodernity". The expression "non-place" is difficult for us aviation enthusiasts to swallow when used about an airport, but if you want to read more about airport cities - here is a short and precise wikipedia page about the subject: Airport City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_City)

I have been a regular traveler through DUS from the late 1990s (after the horrific fire on 11 April 1996), but it latest until 2005 for having enough time to visit the roof terrace. On that May day in 2005 my impression was that a large portion was English speaking, and a group of ten had flown in from Manchester that day. I have never given the impression that the plane spotters play an important passenger group between MAN and DUS, especially when you also take in to consideration how good spotters are to find cheap tickets.

[jabird]

L-K,

Thanks for the link, I am very well versed in the concept of the airport city as my degree was in Architecture. One place I took a very close look at was DEN, which is finally becoming an airport city nearly 20 years after opening. The Americans also have the concept of building their cities around airports instead of the other way round - ATL, CLT probably being two good examples and DEN trying to follow in that mould. Not sure why BHX isn't on that list as we have the huge NEC complex bolted on!

There is a niche for us geeks out there, but even after you combine spotters, architecture pundits and film locations buffs (I count myself as all 3), I doubt it is more than a seat on each flight! Maybe SXM has a few more than that :)

I'm not familiar with Auge, but his thesis sounds similar to the work of Andres Duany who wrote 'Suburban Nation' - but who also did something about what he wrote and has designed numerous town plans around the world, including the highly influential Seaside, Fl (featured in Truman Show).

Are airports suburban? Inasmmuch as they are usually heavily road dependent, and usually low density sprawl, then they often are. But I would say MAN has a distinct sense of place, and that the central terminal area is quite dense.

[LN-KGL]

Andrés Duany together with his wife Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk and Jeff Speck came out with Suburban Nation five years after Marc Augé came out with Non-Places and I therefore suspect the threesome have also cast a glance at what Marc Augé wrote.

[jabird]

LN, As soon as Henry said 'any colour you want', I'm sure there were people thinking 'oh no, buildings made just for the car will destroy our cities'.

Of course, you could say the train got suburbs going in earnest and to get back ot, Manchester's expansion is often the text book story!

So yeah, maybe Auge was first but I will confess I hadn't heard of him. Duany has built though, so that makes him (or them) much more relevant imho.

Anyway, thinking of MAN city, it is more an add-on to the site, not in the centre of it - more like Stokley Park? I'd me much more interested if it was in the central complex. Curious if there are any height restrictions to airport buildings - especially if behind the range of the control tower?

[LN-KGL]

Here is the official illustration on the MAN website of the Airport City:
http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/airportcity.jpg/$FILE/airportcity.jpg

And my interpretation looks like this:
http://www.plane-spotter.com/Jpegs/600/Manchester_Airport_City.jpg

I don't think there is other limitations to the height of the building other than local regulation since the distance from centre line of the northern runway is so great. Much more interesting I think is the new T3 pier extension to the east and the new apron (blue area). We can not see the end of the pier to the east, but it seems like the Airport Hotel have to close in the future. Another item of interest is the airside connection between T1 and T2. Then we can look forward to an around 1.2 mile airside walk from the western end of T2 to the eastern end of the new T3 pier. The new connection will add to the flexibility of the airport operation - and with that we may see the end of airlines only using gates at one specific terminal.

[Guest 112233]

Yesterday Radio 4 carried a little publicised Documentary on the work of the Economist/Philospher EF Schumacher author of "Small is Beautiful".

Looking at these grand proposals, they look great seen in two dimensions from a considerable distance away.

It's amazing what archetects can dream up between real projects. Look closely at the Machester proposal and you see a lot of warehousing /office accom etc. I bet Manchester has a lot of this already.

Non Space on a big scale: where the environmental impact of a major airport does not effect the commercial activity too badly - A way of moneterising a area commercially that would not really be a place where people would want to live.

Is there housing at the edge ? - I cannot tell. - The whole thing reminds me of those "Intergalactic Space Cities on the Moon" , beloved of Dan Dare Si Fi of the nineteen 50's. OK there are; as we have seen, Airport Cities - But the Question is are they thriving ? - The precepts that we in the West, have held as given; since WWII, e.g. cheap energy are no longer true.

The assumptions that underpin developement like this, no longer apply in the UK - The systemic lack of finance for the forseeable future, fuel costs etc mean that grand projects like this will remain a planners dream.

CAT III

(Wannabee route developement manager at BHX)

[MKY661]

Does this mean that the T1 & T3 long stay car park is going to be closed?

[LN-KGL]

It appear so MYK661, and the T3 parking house too seems to have been replaced with a T3 extension (new check-in area?).

MAN has indicated in the Ground Transport Plan (a part of the newly approved Master Plan 2030) that the public transport share for both passengers and employees to be 14-15% in 2010. In the CAA Passenger Survey Report 2009 state the public transport share for passengers flying out of MAN to be 13%. But there is also regional differences with only 6.3% of the passengers coming from Wales are using public transport to 31.6% of the passenger from the South East. This is very low numbers compared with other large airports in Europe and even the largest airports in the UK (the four large around London has an average of 39%). The top airport for public ground transport according to ACI has a 67% share for both passengers and employees (I don't dare to name that airport again, but I can say it has now around 2 million yearly passengers more than MAN). In other words, MAN has to improve their public transportation numbers before they can even think about reducing the parking areas they have today.

[MKY661]

We usually park in that long stay car park, but we won't soon because ZB are moving to T2.

[jabird]

LN,

If you won't, I will ;) I think you are talking about OSL - very fast links into city centre, but also region beyond too. But MAN offers 6-7min frequency to Piccadilly and most services continue elsewhere after this. So what are they doing wrong?

Who is coming from South East to use MAN anyway?

I think public transport is any airport owner's dilemna - it is costly to bring in, and earns money for the train companies not the airport. I think LHR & STN effectively have a station usage fee built into the ticket cost so I guess they get some cashback, but afaik, fares to MAN are similar to nearby stations?

Car parks bring in plenty of revenue, and if they aren't multistorey, the ROI is massive. However, they can easily be shifted elsewhere, or in this case I'm presuming that a Section 106 agreement would essentially say they've got to go?

[LN-KGL]

jabird:
So what are they doing wrong?
Three words: Speed, frequency and comfort.
I think you need to look again in the train table jabird, it takes a miniumum of 14 minutes to cover the 8 miles in to Picadilly. That gives an average speed of just above 34 mph. If we look at OSL, the Airport Express Train takes 19 minutes to cover the 23 miles strait line distance and the average speed is almost 73 mph (the rail line is actually closer to 33 miles long, so the real speed is over 100 mph). If you drive by car the same distance it will take twice as long. Then you have to find a parking space, get the parking ticket and at the end catch the shuttle bus from the parking space to the terminal. We're talking minimum one hour compared with 19 minutes by train. To reach any part of Oslo or the suburbs you only need to change the means of transportation once (to get in walking distance to your destination), and frequency is usually more than four times an hour. Comfort wise there isn't a need to complain either. I haven't traveled on the GMPTE, but I have had the pleasure to travel with the Stansted Airport Express (train) on first class. The comfort was poor - noisy, filthy and shaking like h.

jabird:
Who is coming from South East to use MAN anyway?
It must be some since UK CAA mention them in their MAN tables. The table below shows where the 2009 terminal passengers either are heading to or coming from:
http://www.plane-spotter.com/Jpegs/450/MilePoint/MAN_teminal_pax_2009_by_regions.jpg

I have extracted the Greater Manchester. Greater Manchester has only 22% of the charter passenger and as much as 36.7% of the scheduled passengers.

The rest is politics - you have to set a goal to make a change. Trains, metros and trams runs on hydro electric power in Norway and don't emit any CO2 - cars do in buckets.

[jabird]

LN,

Still not getting it.

All the pros of train apply to OSL, MAN & STN, it is just some of the numbers that are different.

Last time I checked, frequency from Piccadilly to MAN was such that the timetables just said "frequent services". Essentially c. 10 tph v. 4 to OSL.


Afaik, Flytoget runs in a straight line - it doesn't branch off. Off the top of my head, destinations with a direct link to MAN include Liverpool, Preston, Windemere, Edinburgh, Sheffield, Leeds.... and even Crewe in the other direction.

If people are going to use the train as an alternative to flying (e.g. very viable now across almost the whole spine of Italy) then the most important factor is speed. If they are using a train to get to the airport as an alternative to driving, then frequency and convenience are key.

MAN is within the GMPTE zone - a single from Picadilly to MAN is much less than an equivalent journey to OSL.

One change from MAN gets you to very large parts of the UK.

I think the difference between MAN (or substitute any UK airport) has more to do with mentality - we (not me personally, I don't drive, but Brits in general) love our cars - the Scandinavians are more happy to leave the car at home.

As for the politics and the CO2 argument, I think the journey to the airport is a fraction of the flight itself - unless you are alone driving a hummer from Thurso to catch a full shuttle flight to London! Public transport to airports reduces local air pollution - where conversely, cars not planes are the biggest offenders; and reduces traffic. Where that power is generated is again a rather small part of the picture.

If we really want to reduce our passenger transport emissions, then the answer is to substitute as many short haul flights as possible with high speed or medium speed high frequency rail. HS2 won't make much difference here as going to Brum won't substitute a single flight and the existing upgrade to the WCML has already swung the modal split @MAN in favour of the train. LCY-MAN & LPL gone, obviously helped by the double dosage of APD too!

HS2 would need to continue to Scotland to be really useful from a CO2 perspective but the political will isn't there, so we get a half-way solution with 1/4 of the value.

[ian_h1]

Metrolink finally being under construction to the airport will help, especially on the worker front. For some reason people who dont "do" public transport are more than happy to use a tram.

To seriously improve the numbers there are a number of things TfGM could do:

1. West Coast Mainline - there was an interesting article (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/transport/s/1406304_transport_chiefs_we_dont_want_more_trains_to_london_ just_longer_ones) a few months back that Piccadilly is struggling to find capacity for more West Coast Mainline Trains to London. As some of these use the Wilmslow route why not start/end one an hour at the airport instead? (This could be extended to Cross Country trains / Arriva Wales etc who start at Piccadilly but go through Wilmslow, and make use of the facility to its best possible advantage).

2. Sell "Manchester Express" tickets at the airport, online and onboard as happens with STN/LGW etc? (I know you CAN buy online and they do have ticket machines in arrivals etc but would help airline retail sales and improve visibility).

3. (Slightly more off the wall) Get airlines to sell through tickets to Liverpool, Newcastle, Edinburgh etc i.e. flight plus train included, removes a level of stress from visitors and promotes "seamless" travel.

4. Get the Station Check-In working, one of the big barriers to travelling by coach and train I hear is that people dont want to be "lugging bags" all over the place. There are check-in desks in the station, use them and possibly later expand this to Piccadilly too.

5. HS2 Longer term this may as the article says deliver many of the benefits (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/transport/s/1410661_manchester_airport_may_be_highspeed_rail_network_hub ) but will be after BHX get HS2 so may put MAN at a disadvantage.

[Ian Brooks]

Couple of questions
The line from Oslo to airport
1 is it a dedicated line or does it run into a very major rail junction/terminal
2 does it have any pick up/drop off stops en route


Ian B

[Hamburg 2K8]

So it's July on Friday, I read a while back that 23R/05L refurbishment will be completed September. I know I've asked this before but is that still on track? Is taxiway Alpha also getting a nice new layer of tarmac? I doesn't look very nice down the end of 23R passing the AVP etc.

Next question,
Airbridges on Pier C T1 - I heard last year about replacing these in stages, is this also still going to happen?

[The96er]

Airbridges on Pier C T1 - I heard last year about replacing these in stages, is this also still going to happen?

Only the bridges on the end of C-pier (stands 31 and 32) are due to be replaced. Last I heard, it had been put back a year due cost.

[LN-KGL]

Ian Brooks:
Couple of questions
The line from Oslo to airport
1 is it a dedicated line or does it run into a very major rail junction/terminal
2 does it have any pick up/drop off stops en route

http://www.plane-spotter.com/Jpegs/450/Flytoget.jpg

1. It's sort of a dedicated line (design speed 270 kph) between OSL and Oslo S (Oslo Central Station). The reason for me saying sort of is the line is shared with Inter City trains. At the half way point Lillestrøm is a junction with 10 parallel tracks, and obviously the Oslo Central Station is a serious junction with 18 parallel tracks. The Airport Express Train continues after the central station on the ordinary tracks below ground westward and coming in day light at Skøyen. In one year the local traffic will be separated from Inter City and Airport Express as the new high speed tunnel between Lysaker and Sandvika will open. Between Sandvika and Asker there is already a separate high speed tunnel separate from local traffic.

2. Departures 16, 36 and 56 minutes past the hour from OSL will stop at Lillestrøm before Oslo S and continue all the way to Drammen stopping at the stations shown above. Departures 06, 26 and 46 minutes past the hour from OSL will not go direct to Oslo S which is also the final stop.

[AircraftOperations]

I heard runway refurbishment is on schedule.
This update is on the Airport website:

http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/alldocs/5C10757DA576F393802575C80054F63E/$File/Update+24-06-11.pdf

Not sure about any work on taxiway Alpha.

[jabird]

LN / Ian

It is also worth adding that the station @OSL is a through station, with regular links going northwards including to Lillehammer and then onwards towards Trondheim.

[JackRalston]

Due to fly out to Kos tomorrow (29th) for a week with friends on holiday.

I haven't read up on the details of the strikes but I've heard it could be on tomorrow too? Flying out on OAI233 (Tor Air).

Any news regarding tomorrow strikes? Tor Air website tells us to check-in as normal. :hmm:

[Mr.Bloggs]

Tor Air. Sounds strange.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Tor Air - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_Air):ugh::ugh:

[Scottie Dog]

This thread appears to have died an unnatural death. There seems to have been no news posted for over a week and what was posted seems to have been irrelevant to Manchester news.

So what has happened to the rumours that abound on the Ryanair forum of 4 aircraft being based at Manchester and, so has been speculated elsewhere, 28 new routes? Are these not worthy of the Manchester forum; have we all gone on holiday or are we become a little tired of no news being posted by the oldies such as 'Shed', Ian Brooks and the likes.

Right that's my view and at least it will hopefully move this thread back to the top.

Scottie Dog

[blueplatinum]

Can anyone confirm the routes that Ryanair will be flying with their MAN based aircraft?

[TSR2]

Can anyone confirm the routes that Ryanair will be flying with their MAN based aircraft?

Hold on, its not been confirmed yet.

[mytravela330]

it seems alot of people on here are fed up with people having ago at each other, so they may have moved onto plane-mad.com, cos the storys on there are more up to date and also you get to know whats going on at Manchester Airport more than you do on here.

[Scottie Dog]

I agree with many who ask as to whether we really want them, but at the end of the day Manchester airport have little say in their operation.

As I understand the rules, the airport only has a say with regards to which terminal they can operate from. Route licenses are down to the relevant government; slots are the responsibility of Airport Coordination Ltd .

The airport has a published set of fees that are applicable to all airlines - new or old - that are available for all to view. Additionally incentives are offered to airlines starting new routes that have not previously been operated or that have been suspended by another airline.

So at the end of the day the airport authority will accept flights from any airline that wishes to start services - it does not however have to accept having terms dictated to it by an airline.

[JSCL]

Extremely low Air Transat flew overhead a few mins ago (I assume en route to MAN) - TSC264 - any reason why it would be flying so low ( could clearly see it and horrendous noise ) in the pennines area. I know this is on a less often flight path but it is one and I've never seen a plane so low especially on such a clear day....?