MANCHESTER - 8

[Manchester Kurt]

CAA Provisional figures are out.

Up 2.1% in Nov.

UK Airport Provisional Statistics: 2010 - 11 | Aviation Intelligence | Economic Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&sglid=11&fld=201011)

[wanna_be_there]

Up 2.1% in Nov.



Good good, another increase id what we like to see.


BD would be crazy not to codeshare on the route, though not sure why UA would



but I can see SK/CO/US


Dont forget, CO is now UA which is why I put UA as a codeshare option.

[Skipness One Echo]

Why does every new route always have to involve another tedious link with an American carrier? Who cares if the might UA or CO code share. You get to fly from Manchester to Lisbon. I despair that the only thing that gets (most?) people excited has a link to Boeing or Airbus heavies and the Stars and Stripes on the side.

Look at the froth over Biman being forced to tech stop through T2 as being presented as MAN's first new daytime service to New York! Straws / clutch?

Great news for MAN. Legacy carrier, real airline, useful connections. Well done.

[mufc4evr]

Hi

Just surfing airliners.net and some one has announced this:

TP will add:
DVB 1 weekly fligh in the Summer only.
MAN 5x/week (6x peak)
BOD 6x/week (7x peak)
DUS 5x/week
VIE 4x/week (5x peak)
ATH 3x/week (5x peak)



Apparently was mentioned at TAP's staff crimbo party

[wanna_be_there]

Having a bad week are we?


Why does every new route always have to involve another tedious link with an American carrier? Who cares if the might UA or CO code share. You get to fly from Manchester to Lisbon.


Because, if its another way of getting extra bums on seats then Im all for it. And also, it wasnt just the 'american carriers', I take it you overlooked the SK/BD bit on purpose to get your moan to have full effect?


I despair that the only thing that gets (most?) people excited has a link to Boeing or Airbus heavies and the Stars and Stripes on the side.


Again, I take it you overlooked the fact there is excitement about having another legacy at MAN? These 'boeing and airbus heavies' tend to get more coverage, because, more often than not, it means a long haul route has been announced and whilst short haul improvements are just as welcome in these days of economic issues and high taxes, Long haul is deffinatly most welcome!

[Skipness One Echo]

Wanna_reread_that

Great news for MAN. Legacy carrier, real airline, useful connections. Well done.

[wanna_be_there]

Never said anything about the last bit of your post did I?

I was commenting on you rant about codeshares.

Maybe its you who needs to 'reread that' :}

[roverman]

The signs are that MAN is building on its long-standing patronage by legacies, and seeing the benefits of not going gung-ho down the lo-co (blind) alley.

Most mornings and evenings see 2 or 3 SAS aircraft together on Pier C. Lufthansas are in and out all day, with up to 4 on the ground together around mid-day. Interesting too that LH don't just feed their hubs at FRA and MUC, but serve point-to-points like MAN-HAM and MAN-STR, the sort of routes which BA couldn't make pay. The only mystery is why no Berlin (for any carrier)??

Legacies like TAP and Austrian, who left MAN a few years ago, are coming back. With pax traffic up 2% in November, the second successive monthly upturn, MAN looks set to regain its place at No.3 in the UK (STN sharply declining at present). A victory for publicly-owned enterprise, and a sensible, sustainable marketing strategy.

[mickyman]

Skipness

If you dont know how things work by now - give it up !

MM

[Skipness One Echo]

Skipness

If you dont know how things work by now - give it up !

MM

Seven years as an analyst mickeymen, I've got a fair idea but am always keen to learn more. I just get frustrated seeing the same sky high expectations from people seeing apples and concluding pears. Lots of pears.

roverman is right, good progress and back on the right track in many ways.

EDIT : Sorry getting silly and needlessly personal. I apologise.

[TURIN]

Never said anything about the last bit of your post did I?

Well, actually yes you did.

Again, I take it you overlooked the fact there is excitement about having another legacy at MAN?


Both of you, please knock it off and keep all the willy waving for A.Net. :zzz:

[easyflyer83]

As an enthusiast it's great to see new routes at MAN. However, please remember that many low cost airlines at MAN pay their way and bring much needed pax throughput in a way that TAP and some others cannot do. So whilst I genuinely do think it's fantastic news I don't see the point in bashing LCC's who are now, like it or not, a bigger part of MAN than they were 5 years ago.

Roverman's comments are fairly rounded and well received I'm sure.......but as long as other don't misinterpre it as pure plane spotter snobbery.

[roverman]

No, I am not bashing LCCs, merely redressing the balance. Legacies have come in for a bashing from some quarters over recent years, as being cost-inefficient dinosaurs, doomed to fail. It's very true that MAN now has a fair proportion of LCCs, and they are very welcome, but has wisely not fallen into the trap of allowing them to operate at below-cost rates, and ending up in legal battles. MAN operates a policy of economic reality, airlines pay a fair price which makes a return for the airport. For this fair price airlines get 24hr opening, CAT IIIB, two runways, CAT 10 fire cover, world-class ATC, excellent surface connections, opportunities to interline, and more. If they don't want all that there's always another airport up the road which is cheap, cheerful, and we'll see you in court.

MAN's LCCs are at the upper end of this sector, expanding their network steadily and incrementally alongside the Legacies. MAN has terrific strength in the diversity of its portfolio. All sectors except the rock bottom can flourish here. MAN is the right airport, in the right place geographically to serve the non-London catchment. Its also profitable, with money to invest in future development.

[ZOOKER]

roverman,
sorry the 2 runways are not available H24. In fact the new one isn't available H12!
Unlike the shops! :}
P.S.
Careful with your terminology,
'Dinosaurs' were some of the most successful animals ever, lasting a staggering 130 million years. :E
P.P.S. What is a 'sustainable marketing strategy"? Sounds like management bullsh*t to me.
As for economic reality, forget it. The airport is partly owned by local councils, for whom "economic reality" doesn't exist.
Recently, during the winter Wx, the airport had limits on the number of 'divs' it could accept. Years ago, it would accept anything, with emergency parking on most of the taxiways.
As for the 'world class ATC', allegedly over half of them are now in another country, employed by a different business division. Well, those that didn't leave that is.
'MAN has terrific strength in the diversity of its portfolio" :}:}:}:}:}:}:}:}
MANAGEMENT B*LLSH*T-SPEAK. :D:D:D:D:D

[PQC]

The fact is that irrespective of MAN's detractors, apart from LHR it has the most mature / diverse / consistent customer base of any major UK airport,

It isn't beholden to one carrier, Lo-Cos, Legacy, charter, or long-hauls. It has a great mix of all and it is this diversity that is what makes it a robust, profitable business.

News is that all sectors are looking to expand / create new business (EZY, LS, TP, Austrian, Thai to name a few).

Some may wish to sling mud re the use of R2, but the plain and simple facts are;

i) Why keep it open - and spend money doing so - when traffic levels don't require it
ii) R2 isn't just about dealing with today's traffic, but that which is expected over the next 30 years.

Just amazing that there are so many MAN bashers on this forum.

I wonder whether jealously might play a part???

[ZOOKER]

No jealousy at all.
Lots of holding patterns and CO2 emissions would be avoided if R2 was open 0600-2200, as per the original, (1995), plan.
If it isn't open, and the CO2 levels rise, who pays?
Simple, our children.

[Ian Brooks]

It costs a hell of a lot of money to have the Fire and ATC and all the relevent ops people working for both runways in quiet periods


Ian B

[Ringwayman]

on Mondays to Fridays, outside the period 0630 to 0930 and 1630 to 1930 , I doubt there's lots of holding taking place. MAN was operating around 45 movements an hour on 1 runway and I was there on a couple of occasions when 50+ was achieved.... but that was peak period in the summer.

Having 2 runways cater for 30 movements an hour from 1200 to 1500 doesn't make sense. But if easyJet do go to 10 based aircraft by 2012, there's the potential for 8 more movments in the "dead" period. Similar possiblities occur for airlines like Monarch and Jet2

With the availability to charge less in the off-peak period, it may be possible for some of the lost routes to come back or some of the incumbent airlines to consider them by non-MAN based aircraft.

[wanna_be_there]

Both of you, please knock it off


I do apologise, Im going to stop purely because I just cant be bothered justifying everything I say anymore.

Anyway, MEN is reporting that Austrian Airlines are looking to add a direct link to MAN, so I suppse its a 'watch this space'.

IMO, Vienna will be a good route for MAN. A fair few used to go to BTS, no doubt with the aim of getting to Vienna. With star connections and the good pax figures on the old BTS routes, could be a winner for Austrian!

Seems like the airlines are queueing to get in now, which can only be good for the coffers and pax alike!

[ZOOKER]

I love this new category of "legacy airlines".
Hell's teeth I'm off to the bank to get a loan to start my own company.
LEGACY AIRLINES. - Air travel as it used to be.
Cigar-smoking pilots in big hats.
Real food.
A real aircraft in a real colour scheme. Hell I might even give each airframe a name. I might even call one 'LINDA'.
Real hosties in min-skirts and hot-pants.
No hidden charges. The cost might reflect the quality of the service on offer, or the envioronmental damage the flight does.
After all, it's a false economy to invest in cheap goods. The destination aerodrome might even be near to the place passengers want to get to.
The cabin would be a CFZ, (chav-free-zone).
We could play legacy music on the cabin PA whilst boarding. Sinatra, The Beatles D-REAM, (for all you Blairites/astronomers out there).
How did Manchester keep 3 runways going years ago?
Do the extra firemen/ops-bods go home when R2 is closed?
Do they get paid for this time?
If so what are they doing to earn this remuneration?
And who scored the goal? :E

[TURIN]

I love this new category of "legacy airlines".
Hell's teeth I'm off to the bank to get a loan to start my own company.
LEGACY AIRLINES. - Air travel as it used to be.



Careful what you wish for. (http://www.legacy-air.com/):ok:

[MUFC_fan]

Jet Air Will Resume India-China Service Amid Good Growth, Mahadevan Says - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-14/jet-air-to-resume-india-china-service-amid-very-good-growth-.html)

Surely it can only be a matter of time before MAN appears on the map somewhere?!

Even BHX would be a start!

[opnot]

zooker
the controllers who moved to Scotland had nothing to do with atc at the airport. They were en-route controllers who happened to work in the control tower building.

[roverman]

Zooker,

Yes, I have a 2:1 in Management Bullshxt.

I think most of your points were answered by PQC and others, but to clarify mine, in Plain English:

Dinosaurs: this is not my phrase, I was pointing out how 'legacy' carriers have been daubed with this name by critics, with some justification. I think legacies are important and it's good to see them growing at MAN.

A 'sustainable marketing strategy' just means that MAN looks for airline business which is prepared to pay a rate which will produce an operating profit for the airport. This in turn ensures funds to improve airport facilities. MAN doesn't do heavy discounting of rates to attract business. As illustrated with Ryanair two years ago, MAN is wary of going after traffic growth by discounting, because in the longer term the revenues generated do not allow for reinvestment. We've seen what happens at several smaller regional airports when investment is needed - there is no choice but to put up rates, usually in the form of a development tax or supplement. Then you end up in court, or the traffic moves away. In a word- unsustainable.

Economic reality? Some examples. Airport infrastructure is VERY expensive to provide. In the pre-LCC era, smaller regional airports had plenty of spare capacity and so when LCCs came along they could offer it at knock-down rates. When the airports need to replace and update facilities there's not enough money coming in from the fees they've agreed. MAN doesn't do this, as explained above. By the way, MAN is entirely owned by local councils (and people like me who pay council tax to Manchester City Council). The public-sector owners have made much more of a financial success of their airport than some private sector operators. Has Peel made a profit? MAN's economic reality also applies to things like runways. Runway 2 is not open when it isn't needed, it was an investment for the long term growth of the airport. MAN has 3000m runways because today's aircraft in a northern European climate don't need the 4000m runways which the Germans keep building. Additional cost of the extra 1000m of runway, anything from £20M to £100M depending on the geography.

Not accepting mass diversions in snowy conditions is another economic reality, and the sign of a mature airport management. Look after your principal customers first and foremost. Don't disrupt the operation for the sake of a few extra quid. Help out in an emergency or distress, of course.

World class ATC. NATS are generally regarded as one of the top players. And by 2013 there'll be a brand new control tower to replace the ageing one. That's not cheap.

Diverse portfolio - I mean that MAN attracts and keeps a wide spread of business - legacies, charter, LCCs, freight. No other airport in the UK has such a wide range of business, with no dominant customer. This makes MAN less vulnerable to individual airline failures or changes in market trends.

Hope that explains.

[Skipness One Echo]

And by 2013 there'll be a brand new control tower to replace the ageing one. That's not cheap.

That's a good investment, whereabouts are they building?

[MUFC_fan]

World class ATC. NATS are generally regarded as one of the top players. And by 2013 there'll be a brand new control tower to replace the ageing one. That's not cheap.


Unlike our friends in Spain these are not only considered to be some of the best (especially those working within the London area!) and duly act as professional as possible.


That's a good investment, whereabouts are they building?


Agreed - even Newcastle has a state of the art facility - we need one soon.

[Nomoresteerage]

Anyody know when the TAP flights will go on sale?

Got a return booked with bmibaby - but balked at the £160 outbound fare for a 2 hour flight!

NMS.

[Will_McKenzie]

the new tower due to be near the hangars, air livery etc, 65m tall & £25m ish in cost

[ZOOKER]

£25M.....hmmmm,
allegedly not much more than the cost of moving 2/3rds of the airport's ATC staff to Jockistan.
65m!!....near the hangars?....doesn't that infringe one of the obstacle surfaces?
Fog, missed approach, 05L. oo'errr!!

[Skipness One Echo]

£25M.....hmmmm,
allegedly not much more than the cost of moving 2/3rds of the airport's ATC staff to Jockistan.

Lucky them :)

Think all the airport's ATC staff are still there, it was the area control centre that moved. Still wierd hearing traffic departing off EGCC and calling "Scottish" on 128.050MHz. I remember when that was London.....

[ZOOKER]

"Lucky them :)"
Yep, allegedly they lost about 40 due to the unpopularity of the move.
Oddly enough (although it's only heresay), none of the senior managers who were advocates of the move are actually there.
Now, isn't that odd! :E

But. you are correct.
128.05 was the old Irish Sea frequency at LATCC.
Skipness VOR!...........eeee........that takes us back.
Early 1970s, the northern end of Amber One. Monster!! :ok:

[Scottie Dog]

.......and how about the days of Preston Radar!!

The oldies still remember the time that we call 'the good old days' :ok:

[roverman]

Skipness,

The new tower will be over by the hangars. The future ATC requirement has been in discussion for 2-3 years, with various options considered. MAG Board has now decided to take a long term view, and committed a large sum to ensure a top class facility which will align with the airport masterplan. There will be an infringement of the Inner Horizontal Surface, as there usually is with major airport towers, because you must have good sightlines across the entire airport movement area. LHR is 87m, I think. MAN's will be less, but still tall. There'll be a study into the airspace implications, of course.

[Mr A Tis]

What planet are you on zooker?
I worked for NATS for over 35 years.
None of the ATC staff that left/retired/ or moved to Scotland had anything whatsoever to do with ATC at MAN. Completely seperate enterty & seperate contract.

What the local ATC Managers thought about it was also irrelevant, the decision to move the unit was nothing to do with them. So, yes everyone moved around the company to various locations, not just the managers.

[A330ETOPS]

Are there any plans for another A380 stand(s)?

Also what's the crack with the SQ? Is it changing to go DCT Singapore?

Any news on the EK A380 twice daily?


A330etops

[TSR2]

LHR is 87m, I think. MAN's will be less, but still tall

I hope there is a lift in the specification :ok:

[ZOOKER]

Mr A Tis,
I think you are talking out of your Ar**hole.
Many of the people who left/retired/moved to Scotland had LOTS to do with ATC at Manchester Airport.
Manchester sub-centre, approach, (SCMA), and Aerodrome control was, (thanks to the late W.R.P. Perry DFC), the only fully integrated ATC unit in the UK.
It was not uncommon for controllers to exercise all 3 ratings during a single duty. Assistant and TELS skills were also shared accordingly.
I believe the unit also carried out an approach radar function for EGGP.
"MAG Board has decided to take along term view".
Sadly, 12 months too late. EGCCZQ/ZA/ZT has gone, and the professionals who operate the complex MTMA are now split into 2 groups, working for different 'business divisions', 235 miles apart, with no sense of a common team-based objective.
All this has been achieved through the combined efforts of non-aviation people, (Muirhead, Barron et al). These individuals have since disappeared off the radar.
And for what purpose?
Their own selfish, short-term gain, having trashed the lives and aspirations of many.

[TURIN]

Also what's the crack with the SQ? Is it changing to go DCT Singapore?

Why would it go via The Bahamas?:confused:
DUNCAN TOWN (http://www.flightstats.com/go/Airport/airportDetails.do?airportCode=DCT)

[A330ETOPS]

DCT = Direct

[roverman]

Zooker,

The decision to move the ACC to Scotland was a NATS decision, and NATS alone. It had been on the cards for about 10 years, to my knowledge. MAG had no part in it, and hence the ACC did not feature in the considerations for replacing the tower. The tower is, and always was, about the Aerodrome and Approach functions for MAN alone.

[Suzeman]

All this has been achieved through the combined efforts of non-aviation people, (Muirhead, Barron et al).

Zooker

1. Will you please explain the role of Geoff Muirhead in all this? As Roverman explained the decision to move the Centre (wasn't a sub centre in the later years) was a NATS decision alone. And of course controllers exercising all 3 ratings during a single duty also didn't happen in the later years. With your ATC background you surely knew all this?

The move was mooted 10+ years before it happened, again as Roverman says and an early decision was taken to go to Scotland. And for your information, the Airport Company (prop G Muirhead) lobbied hard to retain the Centre to keep the jobs and skill base in Manchester. But of course it was like farting against thunder as the decision had already been taken for political reasons as much as anything as some Cabinet minister at the time was an MP for the Prestwick area.

2 ?....doesn't that infringe one of the obstacle surfaces?
Fog, missed approach, 05L. oo'errr!!

And if you believe that the new Tower would be built without any consultation with the Aerodrome Standards Department or Air Traffic Standards Division, you are on another planet. Please have a look at CAP 168

3 I love this new category of "legacy airlines".

Do keep up - been known as this for some time

Suzeman

[Manchester Exile]

Hello,

I was just perusing the CAA Provisional International Routes data (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data_prov/201011/November_2010_Provisional_International_Routes.pdf) (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data_prov/201011/November_2010_Provisional_International_Routes.pdf) and it shows 411 scheduled pax to Jeddah. I didn't think there was a scheduled service to Jeddah any more? Can someone enlighten me please?

[wanna_be_there]

Id have guessed Hajj flights?

I know most used Medinah (I think), but bmi have been using Jeddah, as Ive seen at least 3 arrivals using the B757 from there.

[shamrock7seal]

What is the consensus when it comes to the BOH route returning for summer next year? It performed quite poorly (45% loads) but it was a mid-day flight.

Was flybe's intention to make it perform badly to warn off competitors and protect their SOU base?

[BHX5DME]

BMI are to base one of its A320 at MAN (and BHX) for two years to operate Lufthansa's Frankfurt services.

Ian

[fjencl]

Does anybody know if it will be bmi mainline operating the service or bmibaby on the a320, does bmi mainline have a base in manchester...????

[Ian Brooks]

I wonder if this the expansion Lufthansa were talking about and maybe take out the
night stop flight as this would save a hat full of money


Ian B

[MUFC_fan]

Well AMM as been announced from LGW - could it be on the radar from MAN any time soon?

[ZOOKER]

Suzeman,
As far as I am aware, no-one knew that Geoff Muirhead, (or anyone in MA) lobbied to keep the area control centre at Manchester.
Also I believe that most people didn't know that the controller's trade union (Prospect), was, for 14 years, in full supprt of the "Two-Centre Strategy".
This fact wasn't published until immediately after the move had taken place.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Interesting news page squirrelled away and posted on the EasyJet website today:

easyJet today published its summer 2011 flying programme which shows an increase in capacity of 13% compared to services operated in summer 2010. easyJet, the UK’s largest airline, is increasing frequency to popular destinations and launching new routes in the UK and across its operations within Europe.
Highlights of the new flying programme include:
Flying over 40 million seats between 27 Mar and 29 Oct 2011
Opening 11 new routes across Europe
Six new routes from London Gatwick - Amman, Izmir, Verona, Bologna, Seville and Aberdeen

Significant increases in flights to and from several leading European cities including:
Manchester
Amsterdam
Barcelona
Geneva
Paris (CDG)

Anyone care to speculate further on their interpretation of the word "significant?"

easyJet announces 13% increase in capacity in Summer 2011 (http://corporate.easyjet.com/media/latest-news/news-year-2010/16-12-2010a-en.aspx)

[Adola69]

:rolleyes:

Hey ZOOKER, how about taking your shoulders with the chips on over to the ATC forum which has been specifically designed to accomadate your whinging about that subject and leave this forum for the discussion of ROUTES, AIRLINES and AIRPORTS?:D

So with that in mind, I see that both Air Canada and Air Baltic have applied for slots again this summer. It'll be interesting to see if the Canadians actually try to start a service again and if Air Baltic actually run their service more than 2.5 times??

:ok:

[rkenyon]

Anyone notice that our friendly BHX correspondent is no longer posting the movement figures now that they're going up :)

[easyflyer83]

Unless they have something up their sleeves (have it on authority, they haven't), MAN will only see PMI as a new destination next Summer with a 6th aircraft being based, much of it's capacity enabling the return of DLM, BIA, CFU and HER.

Ian Brooks, I highly doubt the LH/BD FRA situation is being done to specifically done to save nightstopping crews. Why does everyone think it's an overly expensive way to operate?

[The96er]

Unless they have something up their sleeves (have it on authority, they haven't), MAN will only see PMI as a new destination next Summer with a 6th aircraft being based, much of it's capacity enabling the return of DLM, BIA, CFU and HER

Could it not be that Easyjet intend to operate more routes on 'W' patterns :- MXP, CDG, LIS, BFS..... perhaps

[wanna_be_there]

Well, you could take the easyjet announcement one of 2 ways:

1) The significant increase is just in terms of the 6th based unit and upping frequencies on currently served routes,

or

2) There is about to be some expansion at MAN, that for once, the rumour mill did not get to first. Im tending to got for the former because:


From summer 2011, airline easyJet is set to increase its capacity by 13 per cent from a number of European travel hubs, including Manchester Airport (http://www.fhr-net.co.uk/airports/manchester.asp).

The airline will launch new routes in Britain and improve its frequency to popular locals as part of its summer 2011 flying programme.


The 'new routes in Britain' is the already announced Palma, and improving frequency, as stated in point 1.

[Mr A Tis]

Easy Jet
From my own experience, most of EZY have no idea what the other half of EZY post on their own web-site. So, I wouldn't over analyse anything said there-pinch of salt required.
En route ATC
Zooker, move over to the ATC forum, this is about the aiport routes etc, not about en route ATC services.
Vienna
The old twice daily Lauda CRJs had pretty good suport when they connected to their far east network, but with todays ME carriers at MAN the need for that connection isn't as great at it was. However, it would be a welcome return by Austrian. I contacted Austrian last year & they made it clear they had no interest in returning to MAN, although things can change of course, but I'm not sure where this rumour originated from.

[Ivor Fynn]

easyflyer - your source and my source might dissagree, there is a chance of another 7th aircraft!

Ivor

[Ian Brooks]

I didn`t say specifficaly to save money on night stopping but that is one consideration
as has happened with Air France/Flybe and I was told by a station manager a few years ago the costs of night stopping are quite considerable


Ian B

[Skipness One Echo]

I believe that the Lufthansa pilots are quite well remunerated in comparison with the bmi crews flying the same A320 type aircraft. It's similar to what BA used to do with CityFlyer Express and what Lufthansa tried to do with Lufthansa Italia.

There will be a cost saving on using the bmi guys and it won't just be on hotels. Needless to say this is all making the German based Lufthansa crew a bit cross and led recently to strike action.

[easyflyer83]

Well to be in keeping with 10 aircraft by 2012, I always thought that just adding 1 more aircraft knocks that target off course. However, my info came from the head of commerical at Easyjet who said at the time that only PMI would be launched as there wouldn't be room for anymore expansion in terms of aircraft utilisation.

Now of course this could purely be a red herring and such colleagues will not always divulge all information but PMI materialised and the current schedule for next Summer is now chocker so to speak.

[GayFriendly]

Anyone notice that our friendly BHX correspondent is no longer posting the movement figures now that they're going up


Probably as he's too busy trying to calculate instead how much they are falling at BHX.......not just pax but airlines too......

[dwlpl]

13% is two departures per day.

[OltonPete]

rkenyon

Not familiar with the search facility then!

If you would have bothered to look the October 2010 pax,
which were up were posted by your friendly BHX correspondent.

Lufthansa

Anyone heard the frequency of the BMI A320 to Frankfurt -
I assume three a day

Pete

[MAN777]

Firstly can i say this is not a criticism of anybody.

Last evening we had approx 1-2 inch of snow which was quickly dealt with however this morning (10 hours later) we now have the situation where there are not enough stands for MANs planned arrivals.

Can anybody in the know say why this relatively small amount of snow is causing the delays. Just curious.

[wanna_be_there]

Im not sure MAN777, but had a look at MAN/LGW/LHR notams, both LHR/LGW unable to accept diverts but MAN hasnt got anything noted?

[Ian Brooks]

Was at airport about 09.00 didn`t seem to be on problems


Ian B

[jubilee]

Took a number of diverts late last night. Manpower at the airport employed trying to keep the runway open. This resulted in a lack of stands being cleared, which i believe
they are trying to get on top of this morning.
Jubilee

[MARK9263]

Hats off to all concerned at the airport today to help out the country in its hour of need to take numoerous London diversions, with more on the way.
Hwever, it begs the question why have they not done this before,particularly last year. SNOW has been bad here today but have still manage to cater for other diversions.

[crispey]

MAN now reported as being fulll apart from emergencies.AA 136 gone to Brussels after orbiting over Wallasey at FL350 for some time.He was hoping for MAN.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Yes, Manchester has done a great job again today ... full credit to all those involved, especially as MAN itself endured a heavy snowfall mid-morning.

However, I would urge MAG to take another look at its diversion planning; there does appear to be scope to make some mutually beneficial adjustments (tweaks) to the plan. The airport seems to have taken a liking to the use of an all-encompassing "blanket ban" on all except emergency diversions for prolonged periods (days at a time). I suggest that there is room to refine this approach and build in some discretion where it makes sense to do so.

I am fully aware (and supportive) of all the sound reasons why acceptance of diverted traffic cannot be a free-for-all ... protecting MAN services first, keeping sufficient taxiways and stands cleared, staff availability, etc. etc. However, the use of blanket-ban NOTAM's does appear unnecessarily restrictive, allowing for no middle way. I recall a typical frustrating occasion during the long ban period last January - a day when MAN was enjoying relatively free-flowing traffic, though a number of other UK airports were not. T3 had most (or all?) of its stands fully de-iced and operational, but the terminal was operating way under capacity due to the cancellation of a large swathe of the regular domestic programme. Most stands there were unoccupied. Two FlyBe Q400's and two Eastern Jetstream 41's requested diversion to MAN, but they were turned away due to the indiscriminate nature of the 'blunt-instrument' blanket diversion ban which offered no room for discretion (it was not a handling agent issue). A very disappointing outcome for all parties concerned.

During periods of mass-diversions, many airports will advise ATC of specific quotas, eg. "We can accept two widebodies and six narrowbodies of upto A320/B737 size." This system works well; the airports concerned do not become inundated with traffic they can't cope with, but retain the ability to accept smaller types after the "heavies" quota is reached. MAN appears to accept all comers for an hour or two, then issue a lengthy blanket ban on ALL further diverted traffic (emergencies excepted). Today presents a good example of this issue: MAN has done a fantastic job in accepting (nine?) widebody diversions this morning, then the "no divs accepted" NOTAM was issued. Well, no more heavies makes total sense. Understandable and sensible. But look at T3. Most of MAN's own domestic programme is cancelled today, along with several European services. So will we be turning away requests from Dash 8's, Jetstreams and bizjets again? Under the blunt-instrument NOTAM system, the answer to this question appears to be YES.

It is not my intention to ignite a heated debate here with accusations and counter-accusations flying around. I truly believe that the MAN team has done an outstanding job today and I applaud them all. But I would like to calmly put one reasoned question to MAG representatives here: why does this airport (apparently alone) embargo ALL diversions TFN, regardless of size, when its widebodied capability has been filled? Is there really no scope for use of common sense in the acceptance of smaller types requesting diversion? It is all good revenue for MAG, and good for relations with MAN stalwarts such as FlyBe and Jet2 who stand to benefit.

I would welcome reasoned, informed discussion in reply to the issues I raise here, but please keep it civilized ... no Mr. Angry type responses or kneejerk defence of "the cause". I am not critical of any of the staff who have been doing a super job, just suggesting that a tweak to the "ban everything" NOTAM's would be of benefit to MAG and the airlines alike. How about a NOTAM saying no more widebodies accepted until 21:00 (rather than everything). Is this too simple or am I missing something obvious here?

Best to all, and a big "well done" to the staff on the front line today.

SHED.

[JackRalston]

Sorry to cut in, bit of a heated moment on the tarmac at the moment. QTR73 DOH-LGW has been diverted into MAN, just been allowed off stand 69 expecting to head to LGW and has reached halfway down D and then ATC has been told LGW is closed until at least 2000Z? Qatari pilot doesn't sound impressed and has told them that the crew time out at 1855Z and there is no backup crew to take over. Looks like he's heading back to stand now.

Not a good day is it? Looks like MAN are trying all they can with the current diversions and LGW has just shut them off after saying they could accept their slot initially.

[ManofMan]

As of 2030 the passengers remain on the QR73, captain now pleading with airport to allow passengers off !!!

Not sure what is causing it??

[j4ckos mate]

Does anyone know what happened with the delta flight departing earlier?


it took ages to get on the runway, then did a slow taxi, down the runway and went back to the gate, meanwhile the QR did a go around, because of it, does anyone know what happened ?
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6129636&noquote=1)

[BHX5DME]

rkenyon

here you go ................

http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/alldocs/552F5ABD2902C9A1802577EE004BF73C/$File/November10.pdf

BHX5DME - your friendly BHX correspondent !

[Jamie2k9]

Was Manchester not able to take 2 American Airlines B777 bound for LHR from JFK and ORD earlier today. They diverted to Dublin and are due to depart for LHR tomorrow.

It seems to me that AA don't like to divert to airports which they don't fly from. They diverted to MAN, DUB, BRU (they all operate from) or was it they wasn't a runway long enough in the UK open to take the AA flights at the time.

[JackRalston]

@ManofMan I heard crew were timing out at 1855 so I'm quite surprised they were still on trying to plea to let them off. I know ATC were telling them they are entirely powerless in these situations, it's up to the agency they are with.

@j4ckosmate referring to DAL65? it did depart eventually about 1715ish (I think!) no idea what the problem was but ATCO on GND told them good luck this time

[roverman]

We've just got to bear in mnd that airports like MAN do not do any handling themselves. The managment team making decisions about whether or not to accept non-emergency diversions will be constatntly assessing the ability of the various handling agencies to cope with diverted flights. If they appear unable to do so then there's little point in having planeloads of irate people sitting on the apron unable to disembark or to get their bags.

[Suzeman]

Roverman

Shed's well argued point was that the blanket ban on all diversions for 24 hour periods should be more flexible dependant on the situation on the ground. If there is the space and resources available for some types of aircraft why not take them rather than one size fits all - the blunt instrument as he described it?

Seems that "managment team making decisions about whether or not to accept non-emergency diversions will be constatntly assessing the ability of the various handling agencies to cope with diverted flights" would be a change from this blunt instrument example quoted by Shed and would result in a more flexible policy; a win-win for everyone. And this is the way it used to be at MAN a few years ago, so nothing new.

Maybe things have changed already today as Libyan has sent in an extra A320 which was the LHR flight?

Anyway well done to everyone for keeping the operation going in difficult circumstances

Suzeman

[Ringwayman]

Does appear to be slightly relaxed as an SQ 777 (landed) and EK A380 (routing in) are LHR services diverted here.

[lasernigel]

Went out through T1 on Thursday. Over an hour for security. Automatic boarding card readers closed off. Scanning cards at security of which there were only 4 "gates" open. Three Chnese in front of me, one left their boarding card. Told the security guy who said " It's not my job". Attitude stinks. Complained to manager who told me that the auto scanners are being pulled out. Why, how much did they cost??
She said they are short staffed and the airport won't hire anymore staff.
Manchester at times is just a joke!

[mickyman]

I was wondering how long Manchester was closed for today as I am hearing a lot of sorry tales on the news about other airports but
not one mention of MAN being closed/open.......weird!
Can any one enlighten me please ?

MM

[wanna_be_there]

Manchester wasnt closed at all today, and apart from flights cancelled at source airport, operated a full schedule, and was only closed for about 35 mins yesterday.

The guys at MAN have done a brilliant job this year, and I think it shows how well they have learnt from last year. Well done to all involved, you should be holding your heads high tonight!

Apart from the QR73 (which wasnt MAN's fault), there havent even been any stories of pax stuck on planes (not like the KLM MD11 fiasco of last year!)

Already on screens as a divert for tomorrow is the EY17 from FRA at 0910.

[MAN777]

Cant understand the logic of a preplanned diversion to the UK if its destination was FRA ? Surely getting PAX back to Germany will be very difficult ?

[wanna_be_there]

Not sure why hes comming all the way to MAN, but I suppse EY have their reasons.

[MAN777]

Just googled EY 017

Its actually a LHR flight so no probs re PAX

[wanna_be_there]

Ive racked whats happened.

EY17 was diverted to FRA yesterday, and obviously LHR cant give them a slot, so maybe hes comming to MAN so they can bus pax to/from LHR.

EY F class pax to use the new lounge too!

[OltonPete]

No snow closure but Air Blue recently diverted to BHX due low vis.

-12 down here in Brum, so it could be in for a long stay going by some
of the turnarounds today. Mind with a high of -4/-5 on top of the snow
it has been quite a weekend.

Pete

[GavinC]

Latest travel news (http://www.etihadairways.com/sites/etihad/ae/en/home/Pages/Latest-travel-news.aspx)

For Etihad diversions.

Heathrow looks bad. Manchester looks good.

[ManofMan]

Manchester just released the following Notam.

A3772/10 - LIMITED DIVERSION CAPABILITIES AVBL, ALL REQUESTS THROUGH
NOMINATED
HANDLING AGENT. 20 DEC 12:23 2010 UNTIL 31 JAN 17:00 2011. CREATED: 20 DEC 12:25
2010

Did i miss something ??? How can they implement that until the end of January ??.

Well played Manchester.

[wanna_be_there]

Its a precautionary measure.

Its handling agents who have the say regarding diverts anyway, as its up to them if they have the staff/equipment to handle it.

Its not a 'no diverts' notam, just one that limits them as most of northern Europe will be experiencing so degree of disruption, and there are only so many we will be able to take.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Looks like Etihad are turning MAN into their second Hub!!

Great work by the airport to stay operational and cope with the increased traffic. This can only look good to the rest of the airline world as the London airports struggle enormously, we cope with our own, and take others. :ok:

[ManofMan]

Next they will be turning away diverts holding over Manchester that are begging to come in with the next alternative being Toulouse !!!

Oh wait....

[wanna_be_there]

Next they will be turning away diverts holding over Manchester that are begging to come in with the next alternative being Toulouse !!!

Oh wait....


What exactly are you expecting? MAN has to look after the services it has first, and then worry about others.

Not only its own services, but MAN seems to be taking in the backlog of travellers, so they have that to contend with.

A extra EK A380 landed yesterday afternoon, then there were 2 Etihad flights today, and extra Singapore B777, theres an extra Qatar flight (QR2045) comming in tomorrow, there are 2 extra Delta B767-400's here at the moment so considering all this, MAN is doing well. Where the hell are you expecting all these diverts to park?

Seems like no matter how well MAN do, theres always someone waititng in the wings to say it isnt good enough :ugh:

[Skipness One Echo]

Where the hell are you expecting all these diverts to park?

Seems like no matter how well MAN do, theres always someone waititng in the wings to say it isnt good enough
wanna_be_there is online now Report Post Reply

Swearing and head banging can't be helping surely, calm down dear!

Kudos for Emirates in sending the EK003 to MAN yesterday, at least some of the business ended up in the right country!

Great work by the airport to stay operational and cope with the increased traffic. This can only look good to the rest of the airline world as the London airports struggle enormously, we cope with our own, and take others.

Have you had the same volume of snow? No. What happened the last time you did? MAN closed. Was it handled well? Er...no.

The whole UK no longer has the strategic infrastructure to deal with less than a foot of snow in the week of the shortest day of the year. No one comes out of this looking particularly brilliant believe me. We have NO idea what to do. The plan at MAN last time and LHR this time, was basically to wait for the snow to melt. Really. That's how rubbish we are.

[wanna_be_there]

Swearing and head banging can't be helping surely, calm down dear!



Where did I swear? Or is the world hell still considered a swear word in some parts of the UK?

The head banging is because, MAN closed for about 35 minutes for the last 3 days, handled all the extra traffic, still handling extra traffic yet there are some on here who still think MAN could have done more. Id love to see how theyd cope running an airport!


The whole UK no longer has the strategic infrastructure to deal with less than a foot of snow in the week of the shortest day of the year. No one comes out of this looking particularly brilliant believe me. We have NO idea what to do. The plan at MAN last time and LHR this time, was basically to wait for the snow to melt. Really. That's how rubbish we are.


The thing is from Last year, MAN quickly learnt from this and has a more robust snow plan, and sticking to it has paid off. It seemed that at the start of all this snow, LHR had learnt too and were coping well. I mean, when LGW closed for 2 days, it even handled most of their long hauls. Its been a fair while since LHR has managed to do that.
Like I say, how long has MAN been closed these past few days, 35 mins? Yes we havent had the same amount of snow as you, but when you consider the problems faces with temps ranging from 0 to -15, thats pretty brilliant in my books.

[PhilW1981]

MAN may not have had as much snow as Heathrow or Gatwick but has coped with the significant extra traffic well.

LPL however has had just as much if not more and yet aside from late Friday night and first thing Saturday morning has had minimal disruption, I appreciate less volume however they still have the same basics to deal with, clearing stands, r/w and taxiways and have done it. There has been no snowfall for over 48 hours yet the London airports seem to have a "can't be bothered" attitude towards keeping things running.

[ManofMan]

A extra EK A380 landed yesterday afternoon, then there were 2 Etihad flights today, and extra Singapore B777, theres an extra Qatar flight (QR2045) comming in tomorrow, there are 2 extra Delta B767-400's here at the moment so considering all this, MAN is doing well. Where the hell are you expecting all these diverts to park?

Im talking about the 767 on Saturday night that held over Manchester pleading to come our way, the airport refused, and before you start with this "handling agent decides" business....the handling agent was willing to take it, it was the airport that stuck to the only emergencies, considering we had a light/very light dusting on Saturday morning the aiport didnt have sufficient stands free until the following day a 1500 hrs i think all this "we handled everything well" is utter $hite.

I know wehave to manage our own services but when the powers that be declared a "situation critical" and aircraft were diverting to such places as Groningen in Holland, Larnaca, Athens, Madrid to name a few then you have to wonder could Manchester have done more, the simple answer is yes...if that isnt the case then why has Manchester been inundated with calls from airline big wigs stating their anger at Manchester slapping on this emergency diverts only crap everytime Heathrow shuts...ahh thats not so public domain is it, well let me tell you its happening and its happening now, get somoen on here from Etihad and get them to explain how much "Pushing" they had to do.

The people that come on here stating that the "knockers" should try running the airport should try having a listen behind the scenes at how pi$$ed of airlines are at Manchesters ability to slap "emergeny only" notams at every given opportunity.

And before anyone asks, yes the new Notam is aimed at conserving low levels of de-icing fluid as stocks dwindle.

[Skipness One Echo]

It seemed that at the start of all this snow, LHR had learnt too and were coping well. I mean, when LGW closed for 2 days, it even handled most of their long hauls. Its been a fair while since LHR has managed to do that.

LHR closed at the first major snow of the year on Saturday, as did LGW which got snow in the weeks before. When MAN gets comparable snow, it will also close again.

[wanna_be_there]

I know wehave to manage our own services but when the powers that be declared a "situation critical" and aircraft were diverting to such places as Groningen in Holland, Larnaca, Athens, Madrid to name a few then you have to wonder could Manchester have done more, the simple answer is yes


And park the aircraft where exactly? Oh wait, I had space on my drive for a B744 :E


why has Manchester been inundated with calls from airline big wigs stating their anger at Manchester


Can we see some proof please? To the contrary, Singapore, Etihad, Qatar and Delta were very pleased with MAN, to the point they have chose MAN to handle their extra flights.

Emirates were more than happy with MAN, hence they brought the UAE3 here.

Yes, very unhappy with MAN.....


And before anyone asks, yes the new Notam is aimed at conserving low levels of de-icing fluid as stocks dwindle


So your anger at this notam, when its aimed at conserving stocks, youd rather see MAN accept traffic from all corners of Europe, run out and face what BRU is now facing, total closure. Yes, good plan, im sure our resident airlines will be more than chuffed at that!

I think your talking rubbish to be honest, maybe your anger at not seeing some diverts with no idea how the airports actually run.

[MARK9263]

ManofMan.
You are bang on the money..! Absolutely well said.
Its run by bean counters and where HSE rule these days.

There is no resolve,spirit,bottle,common sense,initiative whatever you want to call it to help passengers and flights not ending up in Barcelona! Or Shannon as a friend of mine has been stuck there since Saturday and mayt or may not be leaving there tonight...I could go and on and on..but wont.

[ManofMan]

And park the aircraft where exactly? Oh wait, I had space on my drive for a B744


Err no, on one of the other 20 + stands that were available, keep your drive free.


Can we see some proof please? To the contrary, Singapore, Etihad, Qatar and Delta were very pleased with MAN, to the point they have chose MAN to handle their extra flights.


Err no...not going to post things like that on here for anyone to see.

Emirates were more than happy with MAN, hence they brought the UAE3 here.

Yes, very unhappy with MAN.....

LOL, where else were they going to send it, Exeter, Doncaster ??? Dont forget your drive is already full with that 744. NEEDS MUST !!!!

So your anger at this notam, when its aimed at conserving stocks, youd rather see MAN accept traffic from all corners of Europe, run out and face what BRU is now facing, total closure. Yes, good plan, im sure our resident airlines will be more than chuffed at that!

Didnt say i was angry, I asked how they could justify it until the end of Jan !!!

I think your talking rubbish to be honest, maybe your anger at not seeing some diverts with no idea how the airports actually run.

Yep you got me with that one, having only worked at Manchester for 20 years i confess i know nothing/nada/zilch.

Manchester bottled it again, as they do everytime now.....but thats what you get when skeleton staff is the norm.

[Skipness One Echo]

I think your talking rubbish to be honest, maybe your anger at not seeing some diverts with no idea how the airports actually run.

And the MAN thread descends into the playground again!

Can we see some proof please? To the contrary, Singapore, Etihad, Qatar and Delta were very pleased with MAN, to the point they have chose MAN to handle their extra flights.

"Goodness me. I'm terribly pleased with MAN. Let us reward them by sending our fleet to the North. Perhaps we may sample the glories of the new Etihad First Class lounge! We shall smile most benevolently on MAG plc. Send a new A380 just for the spotters"

It quite honestly doesn't work like that. They found an airport in the UK they ALREADY served that wasn't under several feet of snow with hundreds of frozen heavies cluttering up the stands. It was THAT simple. Any port in a storm I think. There are tens of thousands of people now out of place.

"Err no, on one of the other 20 + stands that were available, keep your drive free." Class!

[wanna_be_there]

Err no, on one of the other 20 + stands that were available, keep your drive free


Erm 20+ stands. I dont think there were that many, then factor in the 2 following

3 are notam'd as having wip, and have been for a month or so

Then the other stands were reserved for OUR SERVICES that were due in that day. Can you imagine, 'sorry Lufthansa, cant come in as weve parked a BA747 in your spot. Yep that will go down well wont it. You talk about airlines being mad, but can you imagine how pissed off the resident flights would have been.


Err no...not going to post things like that on here for anyone to see.


Because its not true.

So basically, in your version, its like this:

Airline A: ''IM so annoyed at you, Im going to send 2 aircraft to you right now in protest!'' :rolleyes:


Manchester bottled it again


Oh, so I take it youve missed the 2x Singapore, 2xDelta, 1xEK A380, 3X Etihad flights, 1x ANZ, 2x BA, 2xEasyjet, 2x B737 of BA, 1x Lufthansa, 1x A340 of Virgin 1x SAS B737, oh yeah, MAN turned them all away, how silly!

And the MAN thread descends into the playground again!



Couldnt agree more, I see you dont refrain from the same sort of posts ;)


Goodness me. I'm terribly pleased with MAN. Let us reward them by sending our fleet to the North. Perhaps we may sample the glories of the new Etihad First Class lounge! We shall smile most benevolently on MAG plc. Send a new A380 just for the spotters


Seriously, your attitude stinks. Nearly* every post is in dissagreement to something, you seems to disagree purely to disagree, not just on here, but all other forums inc A.net. Whats with that? Its just childish.

*and before any more smart arsed trackbacks of times when you have agreed appear, I said Nearly!

[ManofMan]

Then the other stands were reserved for OUR SERVICES that were due in that day. Can you imagine, 'sorry Lufthansa, cant come in as weve parked a BA747 in your spot. Yep that will go down well wont it. You talk about airlines being mad, but can you imagine how pissed off the resident flights would have been.



What are you talking about, there were 7 stands in the 200's alone...you know how i know this ??? coz i bloody counted them !!!

Because its not true.

So basically, in your version, its like this:

Airline A: ''IM so annoyed at you, Im going to send 2 aircraft to you right now in protest!''

Are you being serious ??? because i cannot send you taped transcripts of phone calls that were made you are saying its not true ??? look if you have any contacts at the airport that are in any kind of position then i suggest you ask them, they will tell you what you want to know...I also find you very rude to come on here and state that i am making something up.

Yes i saw that we handled a number of diversions, just under 20 in 60 hours, I also know that it is more than most airports, but your missing the point,when the situation was deemed "CRITICAL" by the powers that be in europe, Manchester couldnt handle it because of staff cuts and penny pinching, its these powers that be that are talking about the way Manchester handled things in an hour of need....and believe me they aint being complimentary.

These are facts...not made up drivel, but they are what is being talked....what is being said....nobody has put it on paper, rather than just say i am lying...ask around...if you dont have the contacts....fair enough...but it is being discussed right now.

PS, 2 x CX flights tonight, 1 x 340 and 1 x 747...EIDW and EGLC are both now snoclo until 2100, lets see what happens this time round.

[sam1993]

when the situation was deemed "CRITICAL" by the powers that be in europe, Manchester couldnt handle it because of staff cuts and penny pinching
Well they certainly handled the situation better than other airports in the UK!

[Navpi]

Must confess I agree with ManOfMan

This is no reflection on the gophers out there doing a sterling job but ...

....Two runways, three terminals, God knows how many stands empty and meanwhile aircraft are diverted as far away as Iceland and Majorca !

Lets not have too much back slapping from senior management when we are picking up what are fairly meagre offerings !

With some joined up thinking Manchester should have 3 or 4 747s rolling in every hour, either we are a major gateway or a "typical" regional !

Plan
embrace
and bloody well get stuck in !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Skipness One Echo]

Seriously, your attitude stinks

Frankly you're a besotted MAN-fan with nothing sensible to add. A lot of good people have put some points and every one you rattle back with a pro-MAN spin. It's almost religious.

The level of debate is not great here. Saying my airport coped better than yours is silly as the answer generally involves only one disappearing below a fairly large pile of snow. Currently Gatwick is closed again, because it's snowing heavily. Should the same happen to MAN, that will also happen. BBC have just compared (mainly snow free) STN with (mainly snowed under) LHR and asked why LHR can't cope. I mainly despair at the level of insight. The Transport Sec has just denied any link with the last few snow falls last year, on the BBC. Claiming this is exceptional due to the temperature. And there was I thinking it was all that white stuff that was causing an issue.

Anyway Wanna_be', I hope your fervour is well founded as I'm booked on bmi into MAN on Friday. What's the bets? You might not like my attitude, that's fair enough but as part of open and robust debate, I also find your "fanboy" postings tedious but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Your last post was pretty childish to be honest.

[Ian Brooks]

Don`t know where all these extra diversions are going to park as the West apron looked pretty damn full to me as was T2
Some people are never happy, there must have been in the region 30/40 widebodies
on the deck at once which other than LHR/LGW is probably 3 to 4 times as many
as anywhere else
The story I have heard about the Cyprus Airways flight turning up with 50 BHX
pax and not telling anybody until it had arrived and needed transport to BHX
Yes beancounters do run the show and they do where I work, carn`t even get the basics sometimes. The days of having guys sat around doing nothing incase it snows has gone, they all have 3 jobs to do yesterday!


Ian B

[Ian Brooks]

Another airline that seems to like MAN is Cathay as there is another flight due in about 5 minutes so that makes 5 in 24 hours 3 cargo and 2 pax


Ian B

[Mr A Tis]

This thread has become exceedingly tedious with the posts by MoM, WBT & SOE.
Let's just report & discuss airlines etc that do come into Manchester.
The MAG run the airport for the local councils & they are only answerable to their shareholders for their policies. Let's leave it at that. Anyone who doesn't like it neither has to operate or chose to fly from here.
I would never ever fly with easyjet or Ryanair again, but that is my own policy & personal choice.
Just report what is happening and not what coulda woulda shoulda happened-because it's purely subjective.:zzz::zzz::zzz:

[ManofMan]

This thread has become exceedingly tedious with the posts by MoM, WBT & SOE

Who made you head prefect ???

Just report what is happening and not what coulda woulda shoulda happened-because it's purely subjective

Not sure if you missed the weekends happenings whilst busy deciding if other peoples posts were tedious or not but what we were discussing WAS HAPPENING over the weekend :ugh::ugh::ugh:

:mad:

[MANFlyer]

Nice to seem things are the same as ever on here. :ugh:

Frankly you're a besotted MAN-fan with nothing sensible to add. A lot of good people have put some points and every one you rattle back with a pro-MAN spin. It's almost religious.

Lol, quote of the year!

Methinks a fully paid up member of the RDF (Ringway Defence Force) who is probably quite young and/or rarely travels far from the PC.

Anyway, Merry Christmas everyone. Look forward to more of the same in 2011. :ok:

[MUFC_fan]

American Airlines to restart Manchester – New York route : Manchester Airport News Stories (http://uk-airport-news.info/manchester-airport-news-171210a.html)


The airline will run its two non-stop flights a day in Boeing 757-200s with 182 seats.


Typo?

[roverman]

I think it's interpretation. My understanding is daily MAN-ORD and daily MAN-JFK, year-round from April 2011, using B75Ws at present.

[OltonPete]

Seem to be accepting Dublin diversions today, Etihad & Turkish currently
on the way in.

Also appears to an Aer Lingus A321 Krakow - Dublin is descending
towards the North West of England.


Pete

The A321 actually is diverting to BHX along with a A320.

[Mr.Bloggs]

Airlines don't "like" specific airports. They make money from passengers and routes. Airports are an integral part of the system.

All this supportive and competitive stuff about Manchester Airport looks very silly and immature. It is an airport, and not a particularly good one. (Visit SIN, KUL, YVR, CIN and you'll see a good airport. Visit GOI, BOH, TIP, and you'll see a rubbish one). This from pax perspective.

Now if you operate into an airport as a pro pilot, you'll get a very different impression. MAN ATC is generally very good, (no weather radar though) but once one has negotiated the tortuous ground routes onto a badly equipped stand, handling is generally poor. As for r/w and taxiway maintenance, again 3/10 at best. A lot of money seems to have been wasted making MAN a shopping mall, but that's just my view.

[MAN777]

Mr Bloggs

You are partly correct in saying MAN has spent a fortune creating a shopping Mall but its not wasted as thats what the traveling public like and expect, it is also an essential revenue stream to keep the airport in profit.

In relation to taxiway routes yes I agree its pretty complicated but MAG have tried very hard to simplify and re-lay acres of concrete at massive expense, the work continues and the runway 1 resurfacing is about to start again.

Its very unfair to compare state of the art airports built from scratch with UK airports which have to work with 1950s layouts.

Personally I think the biggest single thing that has altered the way airports manage in a crisis is the relentless cost cutting and staff reductions, I dont think Manchester airport staff have the passion to get things done like they used to, erosion of pay and H & S regulations have seen to that :ugh::ugh::{

[ManofMan]

I see that EGCC has issued a new notam advising that it is again unavailable as a diversion alternate until the 23rd...scary.

Wonder what reason this time ???

[Ringwayman]

"No div NOTAM" Possible weather related:
TAF EGCC 211702Z 2118/2224 03005KT 9999 SCT035 TEMPO 2118/2210 5000 -SN BKN012 PROB30 TEMPO 2120/2206 1500 SN BKN007


MEN take on why MAN was only closed for a couple of short periods (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1401853_revealed_how_manchester_airport_beat_the_big_freeze_ while_heathrow_and_gatwick_closed)

But CX257 and EY017 showing on the arrivals board for tomorrow. So if you plan it in, you may be able to get away with it?!

[spannersatcx]

But CX257 and EY017 showing on the arrivals board for tomorrow
CX have applied for a number of slots over the next few days to MAN, in anticipation Heathrow can't cope, whether they happen or not is a different matter.

[ManofMan]

Would seem by the replies thatnthe hardest of pro manchester

[MUFC_fan]

Would seem by the replies thatnthe hardest of pro manchester


To be fair, they haven't had the same amount of snow as London but the facts suggest they're keeping some of the long haul carriers moving...

[wanna_be_there]

Seen on another forum that Etihad are upping to 10 weekly from August 2011.

Double daily on Mon, Tue and Wed

On checking, the Manchester Airport online timetable seems to confirm this

[MUFC_fan]

Will it be 77W and A332/3? Or downgrading to double A330?

[jubilee]

From the other forum:- M T W F Sat A340
M T W T Sun A330 Changing to 77W Oct 21
Jubilee
PS. with First class available

[MUFC_fan]

Guessing the new 3-class 77Ws due in 2011 will be heading to MAN as well as others?

[ManofMan]

Manchester again turning away diversions tonight, Dublin is snoclo but Man is saying no.....

I'm presuming it's incase we have snow in February. ???

[Jamie2k9]

The snow wasn't due to fall in Dublin this evening it was due to be fiurther south.

[MAN777]

The no diversion NOTAM appears to have been dropped.

[Ian Brooks]

ManofMan you really are an ****

[ManofMan]

ManofMan you really are an ****

Star ??, Dude??, Icon ??.....I give up ?

Realist is too many letters, but rather than just fling insults, why don't you fill me in on why the supposed second airport in the country cannot handle 2x diverts ??? That's not counting by the way the numerous diverts it has rejected in the last few days.

The place is run by muppets who are more concerned about how much they can save by turning escalators off over developing the airport.

[MUFC_fan]

BBC - New equipment helps clear Manchester Airport runways (http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/manchester/hi/people_and_places/newsid_9314000/9314045.stm)

To be fair to Manchester - they haven't half come out of this with a big thumbs up from many an operator, some not even serving the airport.

The reasons are as in the video above. They learn and move on. Surely "muppets" don't do that? Unless they're very well educated "muppets."

I do love it how people who aren't in such high powered and entrusted jobs are able to criticise others by calling them names. Doesn't that surely sum it up? If I was an MAG director and someone called me a muppet on a forum I'd be quite amused. There is a reason one is sat in a big office and another is sat on a computer calling people names.

We aren't 5 years old any more - there is no need for it.

[Mr A Tis]

M o M ...

but rather than just fling insults

and in the same post....

The place is run by muppets

I need say no more.

[pwalhx]

The muppets appear to have a plan to ensure they can service their exisiting clients rather than accept all diversions and then say to their bread and butter customers 'oops sorry you can't operate your scheduled service because we have not got enough de-icer'. Seems quite sensible to put long term planning over short term gain.

The muppets, as evidenced by the TV coverage, have learnt and spent money on equipment and have a plan. (Admittedly helped by the fact they haven't had as much snow as other airports too).

The muppets also seem to have attracted a fair amount of new and increased business like Tunisair; Extra Virgin flights; AA year round to JFK; TAP to Lisbon, increases by bmi baby, easyjet, jet2; KLM addition rotation, Etihad up to 10 flights a week. Plus possible 3rd flight by EK; Etihad Crystal Cargo; Austrian; LH Italia; additional taiwan Cargo flights.

As an aside to the diversion debate, or should I say as a diversion to it. The good old MEN is reporting that the government is considering reducing APD from regional airports and increasing them at LGW/LHR

[Skipness One Echo]

The crucial point is one of corporate memory. When the people who were good on the operations were on occasion phased out in favour of people who were good at driving retail sales from Terminal space, the ability to react to any cold snap went with them. Simply put, such skills get forgotten, neglected and fall down the list of priorities.

The major airports all made a complete **** up since 2008 when snow falls, Manchester and Gatwick now get the praise over Heathrow. However the order in which they got caught with their pants down is Manchester, Gatwick, Heathrow, the same order in which the heavy snow affected their fields.

The good news is MAN and LGW are further along the learning curve than LHR. The question is, will they forget it again as the years pass and the winters get milder? Incidentally, the muppets rock.
"It's time to play the music, It's time to light the lights...." Enough I think.

[MAN777]

Let's see if MAN has learnt how to clear snow this weekend as the approaching front hits this cold air mass probably sometime Sunday !:eek:

[pabely]

Sunday night forecast could see a major dump of snow or just heavy sleet & rain, fingers crossed for all travellers, crews and airport staff.

[ManofMan]

To be fair to Manchester - they haven't half come out of this with a big thumbs up from many an operator, some not even serving the airport.

I don't understand, come out of what well??? We had about half an inch of snow during this period, to compare to what LHR and LGW had is an insult, they had 20 cms of the white stuff. The beeb and most of the pro Manchester brigade are all jumping up and down saying how well Manchester has coped as opposed to the others, but we didn't have anything like what they had.

If you want to sit there and honestly defend the diversion notams that we issue with such ease then so be it.

I personally think they are a joke, each to their own.

[Bagso]

Snow - Sunday ?

...The threat of snow looks to have receeded faster than Ant and Decs hairline !

BBC are suggesting rain and sleet only, seems incredible given the cold air mass sat over us !

[mickyman]

There appears to be more and more 'spotter' led
debate (?) on here - do they not have their own thread?

MM

[pabely]

Don't know if you mean about weather but SLF check BBC, airports and airlines use more respected forecasting!

[MUFC_fan]

Don't know if you mean about weather but SLF check BBC, airports and airlines use more respected forecasting!


Doesn't it all come from the same source anyway?

One thing I'm sure we can all agree on - Manchester's December figures will be considerably higher than last year!;)

[Ian Brooks]

Merry Christmas to all members of the forum


Ian B

[mytravela330]

yes....merry christmas to one and all, have a great day................:D

[mrcabbage]

Some very interesting debates on this forum, with a few strange responses from members who are not fully aware of Airport/Airline maintenance procedures but then again- I don't know everything about either, but i've heard from a few people who know more than most!

......Let's say you were out in your garden mowing the lawn, and accidentally ran over the mowers power cable and not only blew the fuse in the unit, but also the fuse in your house causing all your appliances to fail, what would you do?
I'd unplug, reset the fuse to get everything up and running in the house and then repair or replace the power lead and finish the task of mowing the lawn. I'd then sit down with a beer and re-tell the tale to the missus how i saved the day (even though i caused the problem in the first place).

Now let's say you are an airport operator in a far away place- it's snowing so you send a team out to clear, let's say a main runway. Unfortunately an operator damages some runway lighting which causes a complete failure of the runway lighting system- what do you, as the manager do?
Do you try and fix the fault and explain to members of the public what actually happened? Or would you lie to the government and the thousands of people who are now trapped/locked out- "due to unprecedented heavy snowfall and single runway operations".
The problem is once you've started the lie gets bigger and the only way out is to continually explain to anyone who cares, anything but the truth, because if you tell someone something enough times, they will eventually believe it. Ask yourself why no-one even attempted to clear the second runway until days after the event. Why all the lies? Is it because weather related incidences which cause airport closures are acts of God, therefore the company is not liable- or am i being sceptical (again).
I think MAN Airport have done an excellent job with their snow and ice clearance! They've worked non-stop all day and night for the past week or so.

I understand XXX have had the same problems with as much snowfall as XXX, but they reached a point where the snowfall became so heavy they were fighting a losing battle and so waited for an easing of conditions and then resumed the snow clearance as soon as possible.
The staff at XXX did the same but there's no point in clearing a runway with no working lights is there? so why not just concentrate on the other servicable one eh....
Well done again to all the snow clearance operators but the managment at BAA XXX and the government who MUST have been aware of what actually happened, must be held accountable for their lies to the paying public.:=

[wanna_be_there]

Just reading flyertalk, and it seems a few Cathay Pacific are sending out presentations documenting the new business class seats, the new flights to ORD/RUH, and that MAN/ZRH are going to be opened by the end of 2011.

Should be good.

[Bagso]

I think this needs to be direct !

If CX are coming into the market surely they have to offer a VERY competitive edge . By Nov 2010 EK will "probably" be at 3 a day !

Simply plonking a flight into Manchester and expecting to fill it based on what happened 10 years back will not work these days ! Possible its a toe in the water BUT I think they really do need to offer something different !

The EK standard of service, fares. frequency and type has really changed the game !

[Bagso]

I think this needs to be direct !

If CX are coming into the market surely they have to offer a VERY competitive edge . By Nov 2010 EK will "probably" be at 3 a day !

Simply plonking a flight into Manchester and expecting to fill it based on what happened 10 years back will not work these days ! Possible its a toe in the water BUT I think they really do need to offer something different !

The EK standard of service, fares. frequency and type has really changed the game !

[Ian Brooks]

At the moment they are still a little short of aircraft and will take a little time to get people to realise that Manchester has it`s own direct flight so give it a year or so
and then non stop, also CX carry so much cargo they will probably take most of the cargo space

138,000 pax travel down to London to fly to HKG so I`m sure they won`t mind a stop at ZRH

Ian B

[steve platt]

CX Start Hkg-Zrh-Man-Zrh-Hkg With 777-300 On 26th October. 5 Times per week.
Hopefully within a year of starting it will go non-stop:)

[Mr A Tis]

Well this CX news is very interesting, not for the service but the impending action of Rampman :
'm with you on that spannersatcx you will never see a CX passenger flight in MAN if ever they like to play down at LHR if they do come to MAN i will eat my hat whilst i do a jig up taxiway delta ontop of a tug

rampman

can't wait.:cool:
As Ian points out 138,000 still transit LHR from MAN to HKG despite the EK, QR, EY services. I always use SWR or LH. However time is a factor & I'd rather fly on the same aircraft with a small tech stop than a transit & plane change in the middle of the night.

[MUFC_fan]

also CX carry so much cargo they will probably take most of the cargo space


Most likely where CX is looking at. All eastbound aircraft seem to go out brimming with cargo and I'm sure CX with their 77Ws want a piece of the action.

Will be great to see them back at MAN - one of the world's true gems.

[Skipness One Echo]

If I book MAN-ZRH-HKG do I have to get off at ZRH both ways to reclear security?
I think SQ have to go through security at MUC both ways?

Excellent news for MAN!

[wanna_be_there]

I think this needs to be direct !

If CX are coming into the market surely they have to offer a VERY competitive edge . By Nov 2010 EK will "probably" be at 3 a day !


It will all depend on how they sell the flight. By going via ZRH, in terms of HKG traffic, they will be at no disadvantage to EK/EY so on, but like I sayit will depend on how many seat are available at MAN and price.
If you think of it though, CX can market the same plane service to HKG, and its well known by both HKG/MAN markets, so could prove sucessfull

Singapore for example, is still sucessfull here. People seem to think people steer away due to the MUC stop, but its actually the fact they cant get seats on the service thats the issue.

Good luck to them I say!

[wanna_be_there]

If I book MAN-ZRH-HKG do I have to get off at ZRH both ways to reclear security?
I think SQ have to go through security at MUC both ways?



Genuinly not sure? Will be interesting to see.

Seems the government could be comming to its senses RE APD:

Departure tax rates could help regional airports - Manchester Evening News (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/business/s/1403711_departure_tax_rates_could_help_regional_airports)_

[MUFC_fan]

BA and CX are the two biggest benefactors for students from UK to HKG by some way - and this is a massive market for them as it mainly relies around the peak travel periods, hence higher revenues.

There are a considerable number of private/boarding schools in the North West alone that would help fill the CX aircraft up to HKG, not to mention other cities near by plus the 000's of Chinese people living in Manchester. Manchester United being in the city is just the cherry on top of the cake!

CX could make MAN daily non-stop and it would be full, both cabin and belly almost everyday of the week. The HKG market, as figures show, is massive in the NW.

Also of note - CX's 77Ws are 3 class - another F class carrier at MAN.

This the airport that can't support F?;)

[Skipness One Echo]

CX could make MAN daily non-stop and it would be full, both cabin and belly almost everyday of the week

Wow that's all very clear and straightforward. What utter fools they were for leaving such an obvious goldmine. *cue the "It was all BA's fault chorus"*

I think the F offering might also have something more to do with ZRH than MAN in the same way SQ is offered on the back of the MUC service.

Singapore for example, is still sucessfull here
Singapore is still serving MAN but as a tag on from MUC. The real problem arises if MUC becomes succesful enough to offer a dedicated B77W which leaves MAN with either it's own dedicated B77W or the return of the B77E which didn't work too well it seems. Personally I would prefer a daily non stop SQ B77W but up against the Gulf carriers I don't see it realistically.

Here's a thought. Are Cathay going to be in Terminal 3 I wonder? Gate 44 can manage a B744 so a B77W would be just about a fit.

[The96er]

Here's a thought. Are Cathay going to be in Terminal 3 I wonder? Gate 44 can manage a B744 so a B77W would be just about a fit.

A 77W would probably be a bit too long for 44. Stand 55 should be ok though.

[MUFC_fan]

Wow that's all very clear and straightforward. What utter fools they were for leaving such an obvious goldmine. *cue the "It was all BA's fault chorus"*


I'll ignore the sarcasm. Over the past couple of years, no the route wouldn't have worked. Certainly come W11/12 the economy, certainly in the aviation industry, will look brighter.

I never said it would be a "goldmine;" planes don't always make money when full. I just pointed out that there would be demand for it.


Personally I would prefer a daily non stop SQ B77W but up against the Gulf carriers I don't see it realistically.


Very true. The problem for SQ is the flight distance. They are burning fuel to carry fuel - more so than the M.E. carriers. One of the few downfalls of the 77L. Although SIN bound passengers a non-stop flight would be worth paying a premium for SQ as opposed to EK - how many passengers are actually stopping in SIN as opposed to flying on to OZ, NZ etc? A journey they could make in more manageable steps with EK/QR/EY?

Again, maybe cargo can save MAN's sole with SQ.

[mytravela330]

im not a football fanatic, but i always thought man utd were in trafford and not manchester...... isnt city that are in manchester, as they are called after the city...hence manchester city, utd started as newton heath, then moved to trafford, not manchester....:D

[HXdave]

Skipness One Echo,

this is the information from the Manchester Airport Agents site, regarding the SQ service via MUC:


Singapore Airlines update on SIN service

Passengers travelling on the MAN to Singapore (SIN) with SQ Singapore Airlines will be asked to disembark at Munich (MUC). However, there will be no security checks, meaning that any Duty Free items purchased at MAN will be permitted.
On the return leg, from SIN to MAN, passengers will be able to stay on board the aircraft and keep any Duty Free purchases made in Australia or Asia


I would presume (however I am always happy to be corrected) that the CX service would be on very similar lines.

HXDave

[dwlpl]

im not a football fanatic, but i always thought man utd were in trafford and not manchester...... isnt city that are in manchester, as they are called after the city...hence manchester city, utd started as newton heath, then moved to trafford, not manchester..

You thought correctly.

[MUFC_fan]

im not a football fanatic, but i always thought man utd were in trafford and not manchester...... isnt city that are in manchester, as they are called after the city...hence manchester city, utd started as newton heath, then moved to trafford, not manchester....


Very true! Still provides MAN will a hell of a lot of traffic and to be honest MAN wouldn't be half as big as it is now without the support of surrounding areas.

[wanna_be_there]

Here's a thought. Are Cathay going to be in Terminal 3 I wonder?


Well, the 2 re-patriation flights last week used T2, on the TAS website, theres a nice pic of the CX A343 on stand, so maybe T2 will be used again.
With the business emphasis they have put on it lately, Id rather them use T1 however.


CX could make MAN daily non-stop and it would be full, both cabin and belly almost everyday of the week


I think its better to let a route mature first. CX are no strangers to MAN, they used to serve pax here before, and been here in their cargo guise for many many years, so they will know what capacity and frequency to use.


I think the F offering might also have something more to do with ZRH than MAN in the same way SQ is offered on the back of the MUC service


More than likely to be true, but with EY offering F next year, along with SQ/EK, seems like the eastern routes are really picking up now!

[spannersatcx]

Well this CX news is very interesting, not for the service but the impending action of Rampman :

Quote:
'm with you on that spannersatcx you will never see a CX passenger flight in MAN if ever they like to play down at LHR if they do come to MAN i will eat my hat whilst i do a jig up taxiway delta ontop of a tug

rampman

can't wait.
As Ian points out 138,000 still transit LHR from MAN to HKG despite the EK, QR, EY services. I always use SWR or LH. However time is a factor & I'd rather fly on the same aircraft with a small tech stop than a transit & plane change in the middle of the night.

I won't do a jig but I'll eat my hat, new routes for next year have already been announced, including the tag between CDG and SPL, if CX were to tag MAN with someone you'd think it would be with either of those existing routes and not a new one via ZRH. As thare is no operation at either ZRH or MAN it will be very costly to set up, and CX doesn't like to spend!

ZRH - MAN happened a long time ago and it failed, lasted one summer if that.

I hope it happens but can't see it.:{

[wanna_be_there]

Spannersatcx,

both ZRH/MAN will be new routes with same flight number, so a good way of opening 2 bases with 1 sword.

This is what was posted on flyertalk, hope the OP doesnt mind me copying and pasting.


Two CX sales rep from the San Francisco office came over to our TA office today discuss what we can expect for 2011. They presented a slide show photos of the new business class through an overhead projector, photos which have already been posted here and their discussion with regards to the seat features as well as who and when will get them were pretty much on line with what has been talked about here. They also mentioned about the launch of ORD & RUH along with the additional flights to JFK/YYZ which have all been made public with an official press release from the company. But what was interesting were several other plans which have not been announced to the general public yet but are definately in the cards and likely to be the case which include:



3rd daily SFO flight by midde of fall 2011
2nd daily FRA flight by middle of fall 2011
Re-launch of ZRH by end of 2011
Re-launch of MAN by end of 2011
They did not mention about the weekly frequency for ZRH and MAN but hinted that they may be under the same flight by going HKG-ZRH-MAN-ZRH-HKG. We also did ask them about economy plus but at the end of the day, they were still unable to confirm when and if this indeed a 100% go.


There is no reason for a poster to make this up (not this elaboratly anyway), so if CX had no intention of MAN, then why would they put it into a slide show presentation?

Deffinatly one to watch

[spannersatcx]

We shall see!:eek:

[AP1995]

the cathy pacific is operating from t3 aparntly on wikipedia, but also on tas manchester it says t3 i think

[spannersatcx]

the cathy pacific is operating from t3 aparntly on wikipedia, but also on tas manchester it says t3 i think By the way it's Cathay

Oh well it must be true then!:ugh: TAS says it's been announced, well I can assure you it hasn't been announced. There seems some excitement about it, which is good, but I wouldn't get too excited yet you know what happened last time CX was set to fly to MAN :{

It seems strange 2 salesmen in SFO know more than anyone else, I'll ask the cleaner he's usually first to know anything. :rolleyes:

[ManofMan]

Re the CX service, whilst sat in Cathay City a month or so back I again asked the question about Manchester getting a passenger service... "we have no plans to start a service into Manchester, it isn't even on the discussion table", the only thing they would confirm is the Manchester freighter service will be dropping to 6 x weekly next year, they also denied the rumor I had heard that we would be one of the first destinations to receive the 747-800, advising that when they do get them they will be deployed on the USA services.

[MUFC_fan]

Re the CX service, whilst sat in Cathay City a month or so back I again asked the question about Manchester getting a passenger service... "we have no plans to start a service into Manchester, it isn't even on the discussion table", the only thing they would confirm is the Manchester freighter service will be dropping to 6 x weekly next year, they also denied the rumor I had heard that we would be one of the first destinations to receive the 747-800, advising that when they do get them they will be deployed on the USA services.


And who would those people you were talking to be?

[roverman]

Good news indeed, if it be true, about CX returning with passenger services. Perhaps with 4 daily services established at LHR, and the future scarcity of slots at the main London hub, there has been a rethink about how to expand capacity to the UK? Let's see what, if anything, is said when we all recover from our New Year hangovers.

Man of Man - I wouldn't be too pessimistic though about the 747-8F. I recall when CX took delivery of the -400ERF MAN was told not to expect them for a while as they would be used on Pacific services. One showed up the second week and ERFs have been frequent visitors ever since. The biggest unknown seems to be Boeing getting the thing to delivery. Stand 73 will be ready when they do.

[wanna_be_there]

ManofMan,

Seems like the person you were speaking to was not telling the truth :=

Just found this little nugget on the official CX face book page:

Poster:

Hi Cathay Pacific. Some CX sales reps in San Fransisco are saying MAN-HKG will be opened by the end of 2011, is this true?


Cathay Pacific response, word for word:

Hi Simon! Thank you for your inquiry. Please stay tuned for our official press release. Thanks.


Seems to me, judging by the wording, that this is a done deal, after all, I doubt they are going to make a press release to state they will not be serving MAN in 2011, just imagine how many press releases they would have to make for every city they are not serving!

The face book page is there for all joe public to see if anybody would like to verify the above

Looks like were are going to be seeing a few half chewed hats around the UK soon....

[spannersatcx]

Well that just got 2 sales reps in SFO the sack.

747-8 initial plan is to operate to the US, when more arrive they will come to Europe.

The discussion ManofMan had must of been a while ago, as the freighters to MAN had been at 6 a week all summer, due to lack of freighters and starting the round the world service. It's back up again to 8 from 1/1/11 due freighter from LHR on a thursday and the reinstating of a Saturday flt.

There seems a lot of excitement about this alledged service, I think some are getting ahead of themselves and this rumour seems to be snowballing (out of control).

A more senior person than me asked this question in Nov and someone very much higher up than him said NO maybe when we get the A350! It does get looked at from time to time and always shoved to the back again, don't hold your breath on this one it might be a while yet! :=

[wanna_be_there]

Well that just got 2 sales reps in SFO the sack.


Why, it seemed to be a presentation set up by CX, and it did not say who the presentation was aimed at. Do we know for certain the 2 reps got the sack or pure speculation?

There seems a lot of excitement about this alledged service, I think some are getting ahead of themselves and this rumour seems to be snowballing (out of control).


Did you not see the FB entry? Its from Cathay Pacific themselves, and its states:


Please stay tuned for our official press release


It was specific to MAN, and if there were no plans to serve MAN, surely they would have put 'we do not have plans to serve Manchester at this point', or lines to that effect.
Also, if they were referring to other possible routes, surely they would have said 'for official press releases'

Yes yes, could be said we are reading too much into that, but surely if MAN was 'deffinatly not on the cards', they would have just said so there and then?

Spanners, Whilst Im not questioning that you know well connected people in CX, but could this just be a case of info that has not been cascaded down to you yet? Plenty of people in all sorts of companies that are not privvy to certain information.

[dwlpl]

Did you not see the FB entry? Its from Cathay Pacific themselves

Can you point me in the direction of the page you refer to?

I have just gone on the Cathay Pacific Airway FB page and found no mention (going back to DEc 18th) of it or any post from 'Simon' either.

[wanna_be_there]

Hopefully it will work:

Welcome to Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/#!/cathaypacific)

Posted 17 hours ago, make sure filters are set to Cathay Pacific and others and you 'like' the page. Here is the full transcript if it works:

Hi Cathay Pacific. Some CX sales reps in San Fransisco are saying MAN-HKG will be opened by the end of 2011, is this true?17 hours ago (http://www.facebook.com/simon.davies01/posts/486492413466) ·LikeUnlike · Comment · View Feedback (1)Hide Feedback (1)




http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs333.snc4/41789_11279153466_5367_q.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/cathaypacific) Cathay Pacific Airways (http://www.facebook.com/cathaypacific)Hi Simon! Thank you for your inquiry. Please stay tuned for our official press release. Thanks. 9 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

[Skipness One Echo]

When was the last regular Cathay passenger sevice out of MAN and what was the routing? Am I right in thinking they never managed to go MAN-HKG direct and daily? (yet!)

I was looking at my slides of the old green scheme CX B744 taxi-ing for '24 yesterday.

Cheers

[Ringwayman]

Think it was the A340s on CX291/290 routing via ZRH in 2000. And no, never operated non-stop with intermediate stops at various times FRA, CDG, AMS and ZRH. Became daily around 1997 but think it might have been 4 weekly at the end?

[Code 100]

I travelled MAN-CDG-HKG in mid November 2000, returning one week later via CDG. Both journeys were on a 747-?00.

The cleaners came on board outbound at CDG and cleaned around us - no disembarking.

[spannersatcx]

Don't get me wrong I would like to see a service to MAN, the question has been raised many times in HKG, can not due ......... many reasons/excuses!

All I'm saying is wait for this 'official announcement' remember it could also be not what you want. Having worked for CX many many years, I have learnt that until it actually arrives don't hold your breath.

Fingers crossed t goes ahead. :ok:

[learjet50]

This seems to be getting into a long winded debate re CX

2 Things to bear in mind

1/ There website for bookings in Oct Nov still sends you via LHR,I would have thought that would be the first thing to get it on.

2/ The woman at our Local Chineese knows nothing about it and she goes to HKG 2-3 times per year.


May the debate continue well into the day Gentlemen/Ladies.


Happy New year to all may we all keep debating in 2011 ( I Hope so)


Regards

Uncle Gezza

[Ian Brooks]

Not always the first place TAP announced the route to MAN a couple of weeks ago and it is still not bookable


Ian B

[StoneyBridge Radar]

It's fully bookable on the TAP website.

Rgds

[Ian Brooks]

Cheers Stoneybridge

[zfw]

All this chat about new routes etc etc.........and a really upbeat outlook from the Airlines.
But are they looking at it all through rose-tinted specs????

Try pricing up flights to the States and you will find that last years 300 quid flight is now 550-600, and indeed the Charter carriers{TCX TOM etc} are even more pricey................680 quid to Orlando and then the cost of bags and seats next to each other and food.

Im paying 245 quid for 2 to DLM on Easyjet, but on the same day in May JET2want 570............

I think its going to be a bad year for flying unless the taxes are reformed theres noway the public can afford these prices and if they do it will be the 1 holiday this year and not 2 or 3, figures are in constant slide and despite MAN posting for jobs with a figure of 22 million Pax a year the actual figure is 17.6 and descending fast..................16 million by the end of the year?.


Any way Happy New Year and hope im wrong.

zfw

[Nomoresteerage]

Not always the first place TAP announced the route to MAN a couple of weeks ago and it is still not bookable


Ian B

Just booked 2 adults, 1 child and an infant 1 way for less than BMIbaby wanted for 1 adult 1 way before bags! The price can't be sustainable (£157 for all) - but grab the good fares while you can.

NMS.

[Ringwayman]

Passenger numbers are increasing again - the moving annual total is 17.8 million. Two months ago it was 17.6 million passengers. Hardly "descending fast". It might not be the large increases that's attention grabbing but if steady growth is achieved then no-one will be complaining. All I suggest you do is look at the Traffic Statistics section in the Publications menu after clicking on the "About Us" on the MAN website so that you can keep tracks on how each sector is doing.

In addition, MAN is reporting the highest passenger throughput for the New Year period since 2006.

[Bagso]

zfw - But are they looking at it all through rose-tinted specs????

In Manchester case it is more about clawing back traffic that routes via LHR or other hubs and offering the option of a direct service, in that regard there is an awful lot to go at. The amount of passengers from the NW who use other hubs is disproportionate to the level of service that could be offered.

EK and other Middle East airlines have recognised this and hopefully CX now have as well !

[MUFC_fan]

Try pricing up flights to the States and you will find that last years 300 quid flight is now 550-600, and indeed the Charter carriers{TCX TOM etc} are even more pricey................680 quid to Orlando and then the cost of bags and seats next to each other and food.


Airlines alter fares all the time to match demand. If demand fall, fares will also. Maybe flights are already filling up?


Im paying 245 quid for 2 to DLM on Easyjet, but on the same day in May JET2want 570............


I have always found LS to be quite pricey but they always seem to have full planes! You should see some of the winter fares they charge to the Canaries!

[spannersatcx]

Didn't APD tax go up in Nov as well which will increase ticket prices even more!

[rutankrd]

Exchange rate , fuel prices and ADP , Oh and a need to MAKE a PROFIT to stay in business.

PROFIT is NOT a dirty word and if some marginal traffic with low/ negative margins are priced out so be it.
However do look for last minute prices especially in steerage/cattle classes.

[MUFC_fan]

need to MAKE a PROFIT to stay in business.


A general misconception. No company needs to make a profit to stay in business. They need to break even. To stay competitive they need to make a profit. However that competitive edge is sometimes more important than profit, certainly if an airline is sat on a couple of billion pounds/euros and in a recession.

[cyclops16]

Regarding APD. Has anyone read this mornings Daily Mail or Daily Mail on-line ? There is talk from the Transport Minister that when the APD gets reviewed that it may include variable rates with those in the South-East being hardest hit in an attempt to lessen congestion ( I presume both passengers and aircraft). It may work out to a slight advantage to us if our APD is cheaper than any of the main airports in the South-East. We will have to see what happens as obviously some airlines like to fly to and from the South-East especially LHR/LGW,but the travelling population that currently travel from the North via shuttles to LHR/LGW and then onwards could be hit with a higher rate of APD and the airlines will probably seriously have to look at the movement of people (Dermographics ?) and may see MAN as an option.

After the snow crippled Heathrow, new Government plans will make it more expensive to fly from London airports | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1342956/After-snow-crippled-Heathrow-new-Government-plans-make-expensive-fly-London-airports.html)

[zfw]

Hardly "descending fast".

Alright a temporary lull as it is christmas............we were doing 22 million+ in 2007/8 we,ve lost nearly a fifth in 2 years, whereas Dubai was somewhere about the same as MAN at that point and is now in the mid 30s.

The tax effect in this country under the so-called green banner is completely stifling the road to growth, like i say i hope i am wrong but with what i am hearing from fellow collegues on travelling in the coming year there is a marked downturn on the number of holidays that people are taking which can only lead to less footfall through the many shops in all 3 Terminals.

zfw

[MUFC_fan]

Regarding APD. Has anyone read this mornings Daily Mail or Daily Mail on-line ? There is talk from the Transport Minister that when the APD gets reviewed that it may include variable rates with those in the South-East being hardest hit in an attempt to lessen congestion ( I presume both passengers and aircraft). It may work out to a slight advantage to us if our APD is cheaper than any of the main airports in the South-East. We will have to see what happens as obviously some airlines like to fly to and from the South-East especially LHR/LGW,but the travelling population that currently travel from the North via shuttles to LHR/LGW and then onwards could be hit with a higher rate of APD and the airlines will probably seriously have to look at the movement of people (Dermographics ?) and may see MAN as an option.


Although I agree that places such as LHR/LGW, that carry much more traffic than the likes of MAN/BHX should be paying more but if we take things into prospective - 66m passengers are going to be paying more (or say 33m who depart LHR) in total contributions than 20m or whatever from MAN.

I think if Theresa Villiers want to go down in history as a great ambassador for aviation which is what I believe the government representative should be - she should be talking to the airlines and understanding what THEY feel would be best. People's automatic reaction would be "well the airlines will say they don't want any tax" but I think, certainly the likes of U2, understand that there does need to be things in place regarding taxation but lets listen to how the airlines think it should operate - after all, they are the experts!

By increasing APD even further from London airports (personally I think they should stay the same and regions reduced instead of raising them) they are again decreasing the competitive edge of BA, VS and LHR.

Lets take BA for example: they have a state of the art terminal, up there with SIN and HKG in my opinion. They have one of the most diverse networks on the planet. They operate arguably the best business class on the planet and are a British icon. Why ruin that? Higher taxes mean higher fares and there is only so far companies and passengers will go to pay for premium services.

What happened to Cameron wanting to "open the UK for business?"


only lead to less footfall through the many shops in all 3 Terminals.


MAN is quite lucky in that is it one of the largest charter market airports in Europe, most likely the world. Package holiday passengers, myself included, are a funny breed. Have you ever seen the programme "Airline?" In the days of Britannia? One of the main characters was a rather camp chief cabin crew member (I forget his name). A man with years and years experience who said that those in the north would come back from holiday with, for example, £50 remaining and would ask on board - "what could I get for £50?!" Those in the south would come back with £50 and say "wow...I came back with £50." This suggests to me it would be the same in the terminal building...

[Ian Brooks]

MUFC fan
that must prove I`m a southerner as I always try and come back with a bit of money lol!!:D

I hope 2011 is a lot better than 2010 in many ways and may I wish
you all a very prosperous and happy 2011 and lets keep this forum a
great read and fun, love the banter but lets cut out the back biting which has appeared
at timeshttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Manchester Kurt]

With regards the Mail's article, when the new government came in they were asking for opinion from the population on all subjects, below is what I posted about air travel...

[ARCHIVED CONTENT] Transport | Programme for Government (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100919110641/http://programmeforgovernment.hmg.gov.uk/transport/comment-page-2/index.html#comments)
Kurt Stephens says: 8 June 2010 at 7:43 amAirports
Like the other transport issues I have mentioned the government policy towards airline and airport regulation and taxation could be both beneficial economically to the less affluent parts of the country as well as improve the green credentials of the industry.
At present, if you wish to fly to most long haul destination in the world from the UK you have to go via London, Paris, Frankfurt….
Often the journey to get from the persons home city to the hub causes a huge amount of environmental damage as that journey is often by plane.
If government policy had a carrot and stick approach towards encouraging airlines to move more of their (often duplicated) long haul routes away from the crowded south east towards airports elsewhere in the UK (many of which have significant capacity to expand with no additional environmental damage) the policy would have multiple large benefits.
Firstly, environmentally, those pointless short hops (say from Manchester to London) could be greatly reduced. Why not encourage to move 25% of the long haul routes away from London (on routes where they operate more than 1 flight / day) through incentives and disincentives to continue forcing everyone in the UK to go via the South East – often causing unnecessary environmental damage in doing so.
Secondly, this will free up slots at Heathrow (taking away some of the shuttles to the regions) which can be used for more long haul flights which will be more beneficial to the economy of London.
Thirdly, having major destinations more accessible to the north of the country will only help businesses grow in these regions. What better way of helping the UK economy grow in the poorer parts of the country by trying to stimulate inward investment from other countries by connecting them much better.

[wanna_be_there]

Alright a temporary lull as it is christmas............we were doing 22 million+ in 2007/8


Pax figures have been going up for 2 months, so cant really attribute it all to 'christmas'


All this chat about new routes etc etc.........and a really upbeat outlook from the Airlines.
But are they looking at it all through rose-tinted specs????

Try pricing up flights to the States and you will find that last years 300 quid flight is now 550-600, and indeed the Charter carriers{TCX TOM etc} are even more pricey................680 quid to Orlando and then the cost of bags and seats next to each other and food.



But the thing is, people are still paying it. If these are the prices but airlines are still ADDING service, it shows people are still travelling. Look at 2011 new routes/increases, and there are plenty, and then look at dropped routes/frequencies, you will see the former seriously outbalances the latter. Surely they would not be adding if the outlook is as bad as you say.

[Ian Brooks]

When you actually look at the routes Manchester has lost in the last year or so
most seem to be airlines that are struggling or have gone bust and Ryanair ( need i say more).

[mickyman]

zfw

The points you make are universal......
Your interpretation of figures is flawed......

[Skipness One Echo]

I was coming through MAN yesterday and was surprised to hear that ATC are no longer allowed to use the points of the compass for reference. (Their own words of explanation to a very surprised Thomson pilot). Hence the Thomson 767 on 215 was cleared to push and face "er...the car park on your left" and Thomas Cook flight was told to "push to face er...Stockport?" which worked as I think he was based crew. How is this going to work with the Singapore or China Airlines crews?

"Push and start to face Wythenshawe????" Does anyone know what the reason for this might be and is it a "local rule for local people"? How can one get "push to face East" that badly wrong that this is somehow better?

[BookEm]

Grrr, don't get me started on this. It is yet another version of convoluted and confusing phraseology that only seems to happen at Manchester. You may also be surprised to know that controllers can't use the phrase "give way" as apparently no one knows its meaning???????
So we have controllers saying "hold short of B, after the Dash 8 taxi to etc etc" and the often foreign crew reply "roger, give way". I thought no one knew what it meant.

With regards to the push back direction nonsense, controllers can no longer issue a compass point because of a couple of incorrect pushbacks. So instead of picking up individual push back crews we now must confuse Air China and everybody else.

I issued a push back recently, "push back approved, non standard to face err, errr, errrrrrr (trying to think of something to face other than the very dangerous north), errrr to face the other aircraft that is pushing" How very professional.

[roverman]

'Give Way' was dropped for very good reasons:

1. It is not a standard phrase in ICAO radiotelephony, but had crept into usage at Manchester and probably other UK airports.

2. The term 'Give Way' implies that you may proceed when you think your path is clear of other traffic (as in the sense it is applied at a road junction), whereas ATC were applying it with specific reference to other traffic. This caused misunderstandings with some non-English pilots and was a contributory factor in two notable taxiway collisions at Manchester. I recommend reading the AAIB reports.

Attempts are underway to reduce the number of incorrect pushback maneouvres. One factor is the difficulty tug crews have interpreting the compass points. The solution on trial is to replace compass points with easily identifiable landmarks e.g. 'West Gate security post'. There should be no 'ers' because these are written down on the pushback procedure sheet wherever applicable. Need to read ATC Supplementary Instructions, perhaps.

[Skipness One Echo]

The solution on trial is to replace compass points with easily identifiable landmarks e.g. 'West Gate security post'.

You can't seriously exepct the Taipei based flight crew to know these? Any instructions to the tug crew from ATC have to be relayed through the crew and once out of well known English words and phrases used in ATC, you're asking for trouble surely.

[roverman]

Skipness,

The way it works at MAN, the pushback procedures are distributed to tug crews, they are also held by ATC for reference. A 'standard' pushback is assumed unless otherwise directed by ATC. This means that ATC do not have to read out the instruction verbally, they just give a clearance to push and expect the standard written manoevere to take place. The tug driver reads this off his sheet. The pilot will in all probability not know where the aircraft is going because the procedures are not published in the AIP. The onus is on the tug driver to carry out the correct manoeuvre, he/she is after all the only person who can steer the aircraft at this time. The procedures are usually published on www.magworld.co.uk\airfieldoperations, but I couldn't find the file just now.

[Bob_Harris_721]

As we welcomed in the New Year a fleet of Chinese lanterns launched from around Altrincham and headed for Manchester Airport - about 50 of them over a period of an hour or so. Very pretty, but are these deemed a hazard? If I was intending to land I would have been very concerned.

Does anyone know about the legality of these things? I've a feeling that they are banned in Germany, for instance.

[Skipness One Echo]

Thanks Roverman, very interesting. I have always had the utmost respect for ATC, crew and the ground staff, it just surprised me in that it seemed so bizarre. Cheers!

[opnot]

skip one echo
I think your example of Taipei crews and pushback instructions is a bit of a red herring, where they park 99.5% of pushbacks are standard as roverman said.
BTW new pushback procedures are something else we controllers have to put up with. once again we have to comply with the lowest common denominator .

[midnight retired]

Not sure about the legality about launching chinese lanterns but recently I read the instructions on a packet in a local superstore and they clearly stated " not to be launched within 5 miles of an airport ", it went on about other things which included "only in calm clear weather and winds below 5 mph.

[Adola69]

Hey Skipness, you were nearly correct, it is / was the wrong forum to bring up this subject, judging by answers received.

It should really have been placed in the " Jet Blast forum " under the

title Total Bollocks.

What Manchester does today, nobody does tomorrow !!:ugh:

[TURIN]

The way it works at MAN, the pushback procedures are distributed to tug crews, they are also held by ATC for reference. A 'standard' pushback is assumed unless otherwise directed by ATC. This means that ATC do not have to read out the instruction verbally, they just give a clearance to push and expect the standard written manoevere to take place. The tug driver reads this off his sheet. The pilot will in all probability not know where the aircraft is going because the procedures are not published in the AIP. The onus is on the tug driver to carry out the correct manoeuvre, he/she is after all the only person who can steer the aircraft at this time. The procedures are usually published on www.magworld.co.uk\airfieldoperations, but I couldn't find the file just now.

Correct. ATC tell the flt crew "standard push". That is relayed to the tug driver via the headset man (Engineer, ground staff etc, it depends on operator).
However, if it's a non standard push then ATC still need to go through the flt crew, not direct to local staff. If the flt crew are from parts foreign, as they often are, they will be faced with the most bizarre set of instructions to pass on.

I work at the airport and have done for nearly thirty years. I can tell you where East is, but Wythenshaw? Nope.

A very silly and kneejerk reaction by MAN, makes us all look stupid. :mad:

[learjet50]

Turin

You have never heard of Wythenshawe after 30 Years at the Airport.

Shame on you the Metropolis of the world and never heard of by you.

You must be one of a small number of Airport Employees that hasn t

Its the epy-centre of the Universe there is nothing you cannot get or buy in Shangri La

When you have a spare few hours will arrange a visit around the Kingdom for you with visits to The Happy Man// The Firbank// The Mountain Ash to name a few
90 percent of Airport workers have either lived there or originate from the Mecca (Including me)

A Weekend on the Costa del Woodhouse Park visiting its many culinary establishments is not to be missed and you dont need a Passport

Again Shame on You



Gerry


N B Where do you Live as you must have to Transit or pass near to
Withy


:cool::p

[Ian Brooks]

Learjet 50
Withy obvious so good you wrote about it twice:rolleyes:

Happy new year
Ian B

[Navpi]

With the next Aviation Paper threatening to put Governement expansion behind BHX rather than Manchester its time to rally the troops !

Not sure I have heard anything more absurd from a UK governement in a long time !

It's in its formative stages but this really needs stamping on NOW !

There are normally some succinct factual and supportive points made in support of Manchester on here so suggest these are copied on here and also sent to her via email ASAP !

Theresa Villiers MP (http://www.theresavilliers.co.uk/email/)

[Suzeman]

With the next Aviation Paper threatening to put Governement expansion behind BHX rather than Manchester its time to rally the troops !

Where can I find this please?

Suzeman

[DCS99]

I'm a Manc and been critical of the airport at times e.g. slow baggage delivery in T1 taking half as long as the inbound flight, but when we flew in from Switzerland after Xmas and left on New Years Day and everything went smoothly.

Quick immigration, friendly check-in and security staff.
No drama, no hassle.

However, IMO, the test of a good airport comes at peak times e.g. getting the simple things right like having all security lanes open.

[pobox557]

I think this needs to be direct !

If CX are coming into the market surely they have to offer a VERY competitive edge . By Nov 2010 EK will "probably" be at 3 a day !



MAN-ZRH-HKG

this is a direct flight, and i think it will do great and it will fill. There is enough asian population up north who would book this flight mainly because there is no plane change. Alot people would pay a little more for that reason alone.

From experience a lot people hate changing plane because they may or may not know where they are going in a unfamiliar airport.

[Going loco]

From experience a lot people hate changing plane

Odd that much lauded middle eastern carriers are doing so well then. Their entire business model is based on punters changing planes

[Bagso]

Hi Suzeman...see the major paper headlines re APD tax discussed over Christmas.

APD will be a part of a major review on aviation white paper to be discussed
later this year, hence the media coverage BUT the use and expansion of BHX is being touted as an answer to more runways in the SE. its buried in the small print and pardon the pun, it crept under the radar over Christmas !

[Alvechurch]

Ho, ho, is this panic I see on the Manchester thread?
The same two claims come up yet again:

1. Manchester is situated at the centre of the country.

2. People from the South East would be delighted to travel past BHX to catch a flight from Manchester.

Sorry but both ideas are simply not true.
And of course we have the implied resentment that Birmingham Airport might actually have Government Assistance to grow.
I understand that Manchester's growth was actually subsidised with Government support but when BHX asked for the same treatment it was refused? ;)

[Bagso]

Alvechurch

1. Manchester is situated at the centre of the country.

2. People from the South East would be delighted to travel past BHX to catch a flight from Manchester.

And of course we have the implied resentment that Birmingham Airport might actually have Government Assistance to grow.

"I understand that Manchester's growth was actually subsidised with Government support but when BHX asked for the same treatment it was refused"

Are all commetators in the Midlands so deluded ?

Wrong , wrong and er wrong again but otherwise 100% correct.

Please contribute on the basis that you are coherent, and have factual information otherwise best to go and sit down have a mug of warm milk !

[mickyman]

Birmingham need all the help they can get..........

MM

[hammerb32]

I really don't think you've got much to get worried about, reads nothing more to me than the government realising that people in North London and the Milton Keynes and Watford areas need a bit of cajoling to take the West Coast mainline or the M40 to BHX rather than trapse across London to get to LHR of LGW. Just good common sense for once about UK transport infrastructure.

[roverman]

I have also posted this on the Birmingham thread. It is relevant to both.

I've not heard anything of this 2011 White Paper except on this thread, but certainly the 2003 version needs updating, as its mantra of growth for everyone and new runways all over the place has patently floundered. Which is why we should not pay too much heed to the contents of such documents. If we go back to 1978 the White Paper declared MAN as a Category A International Gateway, along with just Heathrow, Gatwick and Prestwick(!). Unfortunately, BA weren't interested in anywhere but London, and a host of cosy bilateral agreements effectively barred airlines from serving MAN on long-haul routes. Years of campaigning by MAN and northern MPs eventually succeeded in removing some of these constraints to allow SQ, AA etc into MAN. BA played games with various long-hauls as spoilers before dumping them. As government regulation and ownership waned the markets took over. Everyone wanted a piece of the action at the newly open-skies Heathrow. Manchester lost many of its hard-won long-hauls in the scramble for Heathrow slots. And so the content of a White Paper is pointless unless it becomes policy backed by government action to bring about the stated aims. Manchester has never had any 'government assistance' as somebody claimed on this thread. MAN's development has always been on the back of operating profits and borrowing, although I will concede that being public-sector gave it access to some preferable financing arrangements.

The 2003 White Paper was a nonsense, representative of the whole flawed economic thinking of the Noughties. It was visibly toilet paper by 2007.

And so to 2011, if it is for real. Why are we so hung up about where London passengers should fly from? They have several big arports to choose from, and if they can't go direct they have a bewildering choice of connections. No-one is asking London/SE passengers to fly from Birmingham or Manchester. What we need is a national policy for air transport which provides the right range of services where they are required. We must stop comparing how far BHX or MAN is from London, it is not just about London, it is about the air transport needs of United Kingdom. If the London Airports are not to be expanded, which is current policy, then how do we accommodate growth for the UK's air travel requirements? A sensible answer is to stop people from outside the South East having to use the London airports, thereby freeing existing capacity at the London airports for use by 'local' passengers. Instead of saying 'we've only got 26 flights a day from London to New York, we need more because all those nasty northerners keep taking the seats', we can offer those people heading south on the M6 the chance to fly from Manchester and Birmingham, and perhaps Glasgow. This is not a new argument, it was around in the 1970s but keeps coming back because of the crazy 'winner takes all' market forces which have been allowed to run riot in this country and have brought it close to economic catastrophe. We must keep feeding the monster, we are told, 'so that we can remain competitive', and stop looking for another solution 'because the markets demand it'.

Any new White Paper on Airports must translate into positive action/intervention to support its central aims, otherwise it's just toilet paper again. A new paper will hopefully endorse current policy to cap the growth of the London airports, and provide active support to facilitate the use of spare/new capacity at the principal non-London airports to provide a range of services to serve the non-London market, with the secondary effect of freeing some capacity in the SE. The active support could take various forms, but include differential taxation (being considered), and conditions placed upon access to Heathrow such that beyond a certain frequency of service on any particular route there will be a requirement to serve another UK city. We already know that duplicating services from every small regional is not going to work, so I can't see the likes of Bristol and Newcastle getting many more routes than they have now. Manchester and Birmingham are the main players, with investment in ground transport infrastructure to make them easily accessible from around the country. GLA/EDI will service Scotland on a more limited range of routes. If all this makes our country 'uncompetitive' then so be it. A few big-wigs will have to relocate off-shore but at least our children will have some quality of life.

[roverman]

Addendum to my last posting...

UK airports policy needs to ensure that it is targeting both the economic and social benefits provided by air transport. Heathrow is a big economic engine but is has some grave environmental impacts which have now been recognised. Furthermore, the 30% or so of Heathrow's passengers who simply transfer from one international flight to another are providing no social benefit and only a little economic benefit to the UK. Growing Heathrow to provide for more transit traffic is irresponsible when capacity can be freed up by deterring this transit traffic and better serving the non-London UK market with mnore direct flights. London alone can support a great many point to point services, something which is more difficult for the UK regions. Heathrow then need not, and should not, be handling large numbers of international transit passengers. At MAN and BHX the social benefit argument for transfer traffic could be valid up to a point, where it makes the difference between a route which is socially or economically useful to the UK being viable or not.

[wanna_be_there]

A bit of info,

Etihads 10 weekly flights are now bookable on their website, all seem to be A330-200 flights (max of 2620 seats each way per week). Compared to 7 weekly B773 flights (2884 seats weekly each way), I think this is actually a slight decrease in capacity, and despite their new lounge being F/J, there is still no F available. Maybe EY not doing as well at MAN as we think. Yes, 3 extra flights adds flexibility to Mon, tue and Wed, but still a downgrade in capacity. (loss of 264 seats each way weekly)

It hasnt been announced by them yet, and with a spare A340-600 floating round in the system, I suppose there could be time to change EQV and add F with plenty of time to see it before August.

[Betablockeruk]

The picture is not clear yet. Just had a play with booking engine and Dec 11 flights are both 777.

[viscount702]

The EY flights operated by 332's were supposed to change back to 777's in late October if there was no other equipment change.

[wanna_be_there]

The EY flights operated by 332's were supposed to change back to 777's in late October if there was no other equipment change


Could be the EQV reverting to winter 2010 defaults also.

[Skipness One Echo]

Heathrow's passengers who simply transfer from one international flight to another are providing no social benefit and only a little economic benefit to the UK

That's a surface analyis. The transfer passengers allow greater frequency on core routes which means, more firms locate in London and the entire M4 corridor.
It's certainly true of our US based company, the frequency we rely on is underpinned by the people transitting the UK en-route. Take them out of the equation and frequency falls, hence businesses may well relocate to more other accesible shores.If you lose roughly a third of your passenger throughput, say cheerio to luxuries like daytime US flights, morning, noon and evening flights to choose from and non stop direct flights to London across the globe. Would this be a bad time to remind everyone just how much of UK Tax Revenue is genereated WITHIN the M25. We're a virtual City State, and you might not like it, but it pays for a Hell of a lot. We need to be realists, not indulge in simplistic Lib Dem Manifesto type thinking. "Well if we lose transit passengers we might lose 1/3 of the traffic and we have room for maneovour." In the real world you'd lose that 1/3 plus a whole lot more as critical mass to maintain profitability collapses.

How many BA long haul routes would survive without connections? What is the point of loss making BA short haul if they're not to feed the heavies? How many jobs rely on that? This sort of wishy-washy thinking makes me angry.

Growing Heathrow to provide for more transit traffic is irresponsible when capacity can be freed up by deterring this transit traffic and better serving the non-London UK market with mnore direct flights

Let's be realistic. Reign back Heathrow and CDG, Schiphol and Frankfurt are the big winners. Any benefit to MAN will be negligible as BA Shuttle and bmi feeders will be flying KLM, Air France and Lufthansa. Manchester does not and will not have critical mass to approach the offerings of these airports. These are huge airports with based hub airlines offering world connections. The net result would be an exodus of jobs and direct traffic from these shores.

A few big-wigs will have to relocate off-shore but at least our children will have some quality of life.
These guys and the amount of tax many still pay is frankly MASSIVE. This is why governents talk tough and do little. Business is global and fleet of foot. What roverman is talking about is re-regulating the market and basically limiting frequency and telling airlines from where they can fly and how often. In terms of competition (the market you seem to dislike) it's turning the clock back 15-20 years. This is superficially appealling in some ways but closer analysis doesn't back it up. We might boo when Thatcher claimed "You can't buck the markets" but unless everyone else in the EU signs up, you're screwed!

[Bagso]

Roverman

..undoubtedly one of the best posts I have read on here reference Manchester !

[GavinC]

For those that are interested.

Used the Etihad Lounge on Monday. It's basically a copy of the one in AD with a bar area, lounge area, reading area and eating area. The decor is the same as in AD in every way. Overall, it's a nice place and the food was of excellent quality. In the morning (9am flight) there was a hot and cold breakfast (halal) with the hot food being tailored to your needs and made fresh, something that doesn't happen in AD where the food is a buffet. The staff seemed a little unsure about what was on offer and a list of available items would have helped the passengers who were often confused when the could see people eating hot food, asked for a menu, and was told there wasn't one! I guess they are still finding their feet as the service was mediocre although the staff were pleasant.
The flight was full in both classes and this made the lounge busy. I was surprised how little room there appeared to be when it was full of passengers to be fair. Whilst it's not a tiny place, it is quite small for the number of people using it (on my flight).
Overall though, it is a far superior product to the old lounge Etihad were using and many passengers commented on that to the staff.
With regards to whether EY need a capacity upgrade or not, my recent experience with them over the holiday period is that their flights in/out of MAN have been very busy, particularly up front. However, back in November, i was on a half empty plane so overall, it's hard to say. Certainly, as a frequent EY passenger, i am looking forward to the increased flexibility the 10 weekly will offer whether or not there are more seats overall.

[roverman]

Skipness, thanks for your comments and responses to my post. You are an intelligent writer and clearly know a bit about the air transport business and wider economics. Yes, there is an underlying political theme to my post. I think that the role of air transport in the prosperity of London is overstated. London has enjoyed excellent air transport links for many years, mainly as a legacy of Britain's imperial past. The main reasons for London's popularity with international footloose businesses today are, I believe, less to do with global air links and more to do with relatively low levels of taxation, and minimal regulation. Furthermore, London has become a playground for the super-rich who travel in private jets, not on BA. London is now largely an irrelevance to many of the UK population who can never afford to live there. I don't buy the arguments that we must forever expand London's economy. The UK is already one of the richest nations on Earth, why do we need to be richer? The wealth we have accumulated has not made life here any better. We are not a happy nation, we have one of the most divided societies in the world. So I'm struggling to understand how feeding more to the South-east at the expense of the rest of the country will help resolve this. Neither do I believe that the London economy props up the regions quite as much as is arrogantly claimed. Take Manchester Airport, for instance. Financed from its own revenues for decades, and paying tax to London.

We need to better distribute wealth and economic activity in this country, and we need to be bold enough to do what we think is best for our people, not the markets. More jobs in London are no good to me, I can't afford to move my family there even if I earned £100k. We also have to think about our environment, and use the spare capcity we have before building more. Is it a risk? Perhaps. Perhaps it's a risk that we might discover life is better if we stopped worshipping consumption and some of us learned to live with less. Yes, I am in favour of regulation.

[Manchester Kurt]

If other parts of the country had the kind of investment in the infrastructure that helps to drive the local economy to the same extent as London gets funded then there would certainly not be the requirement for London to 'fund' the rest of the nation.

Compare the vast sums spent on Crossrail, Thameslink, tube maintenance, DLR expansion etc etc with the pennies spent across the rest of the country.

Invest in infrastructure outside of the SE of England and you'll find that the rest of the country doesn't require the money for benefits going forward.

In the SE tax payers money is spent on delivering infrastructure to make the region rich.

In the north tax payers money is spent on benefits payments that do nothing whatsoever to make the region richer and just lead to the area falling further behind the infrastructure rich region in the SE.

[lfc84]

To highlight the point about funding regions - see Merseytram. But thats OT so let not go there. Im just trying to quickly highlight the point.

[OltonPete]

Reported on another site and seems to be confirmed by the flybmi website that MAN-LHR for summer 2011 is being reduced to four daily in the week and all on the 145.

Saturday is showing three flights out of LHR (one A319) and Sunday two
flights out of LHR (one A319).

Checked EDI & GLA as well but only a couple of dates and EDI was showing
just 319's but GLA a mix of 319's/320's but only 6 daily.

All part of juggling the fleet for the A320 MAN & BHX Lufthansa Frankfurt flights?

Pete

[GavinC]

MAG pulls of £280m refinance | News | Manchester Confidential (http://www.manchesterconfidential.co.uk/News/General/MAG-pulls-of-280m-refinance_16523.asp)

[wanna_be_there]

Reported on another site and seems to be confirmed by the flybmi website that MAN-LHR for summer 2011 is being reduced to four daily in the week and all on the 145


Probably not the worst thing in the world to happen. It was about time MAN travellers let go of the LHR apron strings.

We have a wealth of other star connections, both short and long haul, and that means connecting down at LHR is loosing its appeal.

Star wise we have:
-FRA/MUC/ZRH/DOH for far/middle east connections
-EWR/PHL for American connections
-SIN for direct far east service
-LIS for South America
-BRU/FRA for the African continent
-OSL/ARN/STR/DUS/LIS/CPH/BSL/HAM for direct city services

The only main ones I can see people going to LHR for now is maybe NZ to AKL, bmi services themselves and maybe Asiana for Seoul.

[Skipness One Echo]

It was about time MAN travellers let go of the LHR apron strings.

To suckle on the off shore ones instead? EEEK!

Is there nothing to be said for keeping the jobs in the UK? Try and support British groud handlers and airline staff? I'm not advocating BA or BMI here I'm just suggesting we try and hold onto what we have.
STAR wise you also have Air Canada at Heathrow as well which is a good option for Canada as TSC are only a few a week alas in the colder months.

Quick question. If Cathay do use T3 and they do use the B777-300ER, are they going to have to modify Stand 44 and move the airside road?
I seem to remember BA B744s used this on the Islamabad run?

JetPhotos.Net Photo » EGCC Airport Overview Airport by Dan Valentine (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6264214&nseq=194)

[Ian Brooks]

wanna_be_there

Totally agree with you Star Alliance now are getting stronger and stronger at
Manchester

Ian B

[Mr A Tis]

for Canada as TSC are only a few a week alas

TSC is a daily ex Wed, Dep MAN at 1315 for YYZ. A330 ex Sat which is A310.

[learjet50]

Re your post yre Cathy using stand 44.

I would imagine they will use the 50 s i e 53/54/55 etc as there would be no need to modify any thing I dont think

Since AF moved toT3 thay appear to use 44 all the time as do FlyBe on the Paris flights I dont know if thats part of the agreement to them moving to T3


Also looking at the Aerial picture with a 330 on 44 I suspect this is the largest a/c you would get there without blocking of the Taxy way where the B A is It also only has 1 Bridge I would think CX would want 2
We shall w.ait and C:sad:

[Will_McKenzie]

LJ50

I would imagine that a B777 would have to use stand 55, like the qantas B747 uses, due to taxiway restrictions.
As for the AF, it also uses 48, 49 other 50's too, though majority of the time it goes on 44L. Skipness is quite correct, a B747 is largest for stand 44, the stand layout has changed recently since an a330 was on the same stand :-)
I have to say i would be surprised to see Cathay in T3, either T1 or T2 would be more suitable, as what happened recently with the diversions

[JackRalston]

Just seen (approx 1520) what appeared to be a Chinook(?) flying VERY low directly over my house in Withington heading westbound. Certainly no higher then 1000ft i'd say. Any info?

[Ian Brooks]

Just headed south through 23 approach, what a sound


Ian b

[wanna_be_there]

Is there nothing to be said for keeping the jobs in the UK? Try and support British groud handlers and airline staff? I'm not advocating BA or BMI here I'm just suggesting we try and hold onto what we have.



Skipness, Im all for keeping UK jobs, but bmi just frustrates me as they have never really had a clear commitment or path. Surely its better to have airlines and routes with clear directionality. LH have been consisten with serving their hubs, Qatar have been consistent, as have swiss, SAS and so on. But what about bmi?:

-Theyve changed the LHR route more times over the years than Ive had hot dinners

-The whole Tatl affair from MAN was a disaster

-have no clear 'Identity' at MAN. Regional to serve Lyon, Edinburgh and Aberdeen but then bmi baby to serve Belfast, Lisbon etc, then mainline for LHR?!?

-changed from british midland, to british midland international, then to bmi and now back to british midland international

Its just farcical really when you look at it.

[Skipness One Echo]

I agree with you, that's quite a good point. In fairness it may be that any MAN-FRA shuttle type ends up being operated by bmi anyway. Lufthansa have been very good for focussing bmi and there is a renewed sense of purpose about the firm.

Even the return of the words "British Midland International" in the cabin PA and website branding have been a good idea I think.

Incidentally the reason I reckon T3 for Cathay is that they're ONEWORLD and ideally might join BA and AA under the same roof. However to be fair, a B777-300ER is a better fit for T2 which already has a kink in Taxiway D on the South side when they realised they might have to park the A340-600 at some point and the stands were only marked for the B747! It's really noticeable at night when the green taxiway lights veer away half way down the Terminal....

[wanna_be_there]

Lufthansa have been very good for focussing bmi and there is a renewed sense of purpose about the firm.



Deffinatly. Lufthansa taking over control is probably the best thing to happen to bmi in recent years. It doesnt bear thinking about what might of happened if they didnt take it on.


In fairness it may be that any MAN-FRA shuttle type ends up being operated by bmi anyway


Its kind of a double edged sword this one. There will be some who book a LH flight because they want to fly LH, and will probably be confused as to why a bmi aircraft is at the gate.

On the other hand, by passengers who book soley through LH, it might raise brand awareness of bmi and its subsidaries.

[wanna_be_there]

Incidentally the reason I reckon T3 for Cathay is that they're ONEWORLD and ideally might join BA and AA under the same roof


Makes more sense to be with BA/AA, but then they used to be in T2, and the recent pax flights used T2.
Also worth considering, AA codeshare with EY, but EY are in T1 with AA in T2.

This is one of the downsides of codeshareing, it means numers are all oer the shop.

For example, AF is part of KLM, but AF in T3 with KLM in T2. If KLM moved to T3, then you have the DL codeshare with KLM still in T2.

I suppose with CX, when its finally announced we will know the terminals.