MANCHESTER - 8

[Skipness One Echo]

Hi chaps,

Quick question. I have searched pprune and google but can't find the definitive answer. I am looking for the date, runway and reg and flight number of the Emirates ldeparture that launched Runway 2 into comercial use. I think Emirates was a 24L departure...

Does anyone know the same for the first arrival on 06R I presume?

Finally I think some light aircraft and callibrators had used the new runway before the start of commercial operations. Is that correct?

[Curious Pax]

A trawl back through the TAS archives shows that Ops1 declared runway 2 open at 1411 on 5th Feb 2001, and at 1412 A330 A6-EAB operating EK36 departed becoming the first commercial flight to use it. Second departure was 146 G-MABR at 1507.

First ever landing was by PA28 G-MAHC at 1200 on 5th Nov 2000.

[spannersatcx]

CX will use neither T3, T2 or T1 they're not coming until at least 2016 when the A350 arrives! :sad:

[wanna_be_there]

CX will use neither T3, T2 or T1 they're not coming until at least 2016 when the A350 arrives


We will see. Im still holding out on the fact CX have said a press release is due. Seems to be more definative sources saying Yay than those saying nay.

[spannersatcx]

Seems to be more definative sources saying Yay What are those sources as I'd like to know? The only things I've seen are on a few "rumour" internet forums, nothing official or definative anywhere!:confused:

[wanna_be_there]

What are those sources as I'd like to know? The only things I've seen are on a few "rumour" internet forums, nothing official or definative anywhere


Id say the CX FB page and the SFO sales reps are definitive, but I never anywhere said it was official.

In all fairness though, The internet rumours are only at the same credibility level of what you are saying. Dont forget, whilst I have no doubt what your managers have said to you, they have no obligation to tell you whats really going on behind the scenes.

[Skipness One Echo]

From the business perspective, the marketeers may LOVE to see MAN-HKG, but yield management may be wary and operationally the assets required may get "more bang for your buck" being deployed within an established route. Within any large company, often the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. They often fail to speak with one voice.

[wanna_be_there]

Within any large company, often the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. They often fail to speak with one voice


Good way to put it, as its basically what I was trying to say. Whilst internal collegues tend to get a heads up on the General public, management will not pass everything down to protect their confidentiality.

All it would thak is for Hong Kong Airlines to jump into MAN first, for example, and not only will that scupper CX at MAN, but also ZRH as it no longer has a viable tag on, but also could affect their LHR ops, as there are a LOT of MAN pax that may be lost to a direct service. You can see why theyd want to keep it close to their chest.


From the business perspective, the marketeers may LOVE to see MAN-HKG, but yield management may be wary and operationally the assets required may get "more bang for your buck" being deployed within an established route


And this is why I think the proposed MAN-ZRH-HKG route would work well, youve basically got 2 chances to fill the cabin and get the required yield, and whilst I appriciate it doesnt translate to yield, with 138000 people transiting MAN-LHR-HKG, its not as if the MAN-HKG market is unproven.
CX have tried to relaunch MAN in 2005, so its evident they do see some potential here.

[Scottie Dog]

Having looked at the Cathay response on Facebook I must say that I support the group that think the flight will be launched 'later rather than sooner'.

Look at the wording of the reply "Hi Simon! Thank you for your inquiry. Please stay tuned for our official press release. Thanks" - does that not look like a very standard response which can interpreted in any way that the recipient may wish? I do not see this as being a definitive response.

Regards

Scottie Dog

[mickyman]

CX

Slightly saddened by the 'knowledgable' people on here falling over themselves to have an opinion on whether 'the great Cathay' will ever 'grace' the Manchester tarmac again......

build it and they will come......indeed!

MM

[learjet50]

As they say in the Industry

Believe it when it nudges you in he back and not a second before.

We have heard ducks Fxxt before:=

[wanna_be_there]

Just found this snippet:


PIA passengers for New York and Chicago will now be carried by its own aircrafts up to Turkey, from where they will proceed to their destination after change of aircraft to THY aircraft for onward flights. The same will be the case for PIA passengers booked to Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Milan, Rome, Barcelona, Birmingham, Manchester etc.

Ending MAN ops? Are they out of their minds! I hope this is just a media error as PIA have been here for years and are always chocca.

[Ian Brooks]

Based on those figures we should get 2 TK B777 a day then or Air Blue getting
bigger aircraft very quickly lol!
What a nightmare with baggage as well

Ian B

Edited to add extra line

[Skipness One Echo]

Uncle Sam practically gave PIA a whole new B777 fleet for virtually squat-diddily as a "thank you" for it's support in the "War on Terror" and yet they, like Air India just have no idea how to run an honest, competent business. Dare I say the culture of endemic incompetence and corruption in Pakistan may have penetrated PIA? Stating the obvious?

Doesn't matter how much volume they have at MAN, they don't seem to have the ability to turn a profit on it. Personally a THY A330 would look quite good at MAN IMHO.

[crewmeal]

If the THY/PK option comes off where does that leave Air Blue and their A320 operation via Ankara? Interesting times ahead.

Whatever happens there will always be the Pakistani market to travel to and from MAN & BHX. Not sure what would happen at GLA & LBA though.

As a footnote I bet BA will be spitting feathers after giving up what seemed the lucrative MAN-ISB route!!

[wanna_be_there]

Well, its interesting times ahead.

For what was once PIA's only international 'hub', it will be ashame to see them go. MAN has always been important for PIA, and is the only place they seem to send their B747-300 on rare occasions.
Will be interesting to see how the local pakistani population respond to this.


Based on those figures we should get 2 TK B777 a day


Well, we could/should see a combination of either:

3xDaily B737/A32x
2xdaily A330/340
1xDaily B777 and 1xA333

After all, TK has now got to accomodate their own daily pax, and up to 3 daily B7772/3 PIA pax, as well as the LBA A310 pax (as seen as TK dont serve LBA), and no matter how hard they try, they aint gunna fit them all into a daily B737-800!


Doesn't matter how much volume they have at MAN, they don't seem to have the ability to turn a profit on it


Well, fares are more expensive from MAN with a higher volume than LHR, and with cheaper landing fees and better slots, it will be interesting to see why they can make LHR work and not MAN, especially as MAN once had hub status for them.

Personally, I think its an error, as the people who broke this story on a.net and seem to be in the know are stating that, other than the LHE-MAN-JFK sector, MAN will be unaffected.
GLA to go, and BHX may be reduced or gone due to it being sandwiched between MAN/LHR, and LBA may go due to it being 2 weekly and close to MAN.

[wanna_be_there]

As a footnote I bet BA will be spitting feathers after giving up what seemed the lucrative MAN-ISB route!!


They seem to have a love-hate affair with ISB. Is it still suspended from LHR?
Anyway, regards their MAN-ISB, I doubt they will be loosing any sleep on it, and they are not exactly going to be jumping overthemseves to serve it again.


Air Blue getting
bigger aircraft very quickly lol!



As a footnote, may be time for them to negotiate a very cheap deal on the 3-4 Olympic A340's currently sat at ATH? Im sure they could grap them at a bargain price to get them off OA's hands!

[OltonPete]

Careful what you believe.

I have posted various articles on a BHX forum about this MOU with TK and
believe me there are so many different versions and it is only a MOU.

One article clearly stated that UK operations would not change and if the link below opens you will see that PIA intend to keep its UK flights (other than Glasgow). Well for this week anyway!!

Business : PIA hub in Turkey to compete with Gulf airlines (http://tinyurl.com/36cetr4)

This one mentions everywhere but the UK.

Business and Economy - Pakistan - PIA to suspend flights to New York, Chicago, Spain, Germany: joint venture agreement signed with Turkish Airlines (http://tinyurl.com/32qgbne)

Pete

[mickyman]

PIA

Consternation amongst the paparazzi punters on here.....again!

A little knowledge is.......

The silly season starts earlier every year on here.

MM

[wanna_be_there]

PIA

Consternation amongst the paparazzi punters on here.....again!

A little knowledge is.......

The silly season stars earlier every year on here.


To be honest, thats a little harsh. When each news source is claiming to come from the top brass at PIA, of course there is going to be confusion.

At the end of that day, you bash those looking at the news stories, but until its either removed/added from the booking engine, where else are you supposed to get the info from?

Paparazzi, as you say, is one of the main outlets airlines use to relay information, so if someone sees a news release relating to a particular area, in this case MAN, it is completely valid to post on here. Just because the information comming out is a bit scrambled, it doesnt mean its not right, its just about finding the correct version.

Its a bit annoying that people on here want information backed up with sources, which is fair enough, but it is backed up, its still not good enough. No wonder the number of posters on here diminish at a daily rate....

[Skipness One Echo]

why they can make LHR work and not MAN, especially as MAN once had hub status for them.

There are a few airlines that use LHR for status and political reasons. Remember when Malaysian admitted that LHR was loss making but would not be dropped? I doubt PIA could turn a profit with the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow to be honest.

[nef]

The articles quoted seem to indicate proposed 21 weekly Pakistan-IST frequencies, presumably working out to a daily flight from each of KHI/LHE/ISB to IST. If PK are dropping all these direct US and European routes, how is that level of frequency on Pakistan-IST ever going to provide enough capacity to feed all the connecting pax into IST?

[Manchester Kurt]

Dec passenger numbers are out...

http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/alldocs/6569F08DBDFFEE52802578140040DE1E/$File/December10.pdf

Up 1.98% on Dec 2009.

[Ian Brooks]

Thats quite impressive when you think how many flights were cancelled due the snow


Ian B

[BHX5DME]

Manchester does seems to have 'turned the corner' with monthly pax on the rise, the rolling year is 17,873,188 down 5.13% and rolling movements 159,054 down 7.79%, so a way to go yet !

But with lots of rumours of new services it is looking promising for Manchester something BHX only dreams of !

[wanna_be_there]

Thats quite impressive when you think how many flights were cancelled due the snow



Yes, but dont forget how many extra flights we gained through diversions. Even if diverts dont get added to the totals, we still have the likes of the extra Qatar, 2 Etihad, 2-3 Singapore, Emirates A380 and 2 Cathay Pacific which were 'scheduled' into MAN (By scheduled I mean they were deliberatly positioned into MAN from their original diversion point (CX/EY/EK) or just outright planned into MAN from the outset)

[pobox557]

Quote:
From experience a lot people hate changing plane
Odd that much lauded middle eastern carriers are doing so well then. Their entire business model is based on punters changing planes



there is the type who will fly a sector from uk to europethen change to another plane and fly 8-14 hours (asia)....... while another group will take the middle eastern airlines and fly 7 hours each sector.

If they had the ultimate choice like CX doing a non stop then i know people will get on that plane rather the first two options.

as for your quote...... im one of them. i dont like a 12 hour flight or can i stand a non stop flight....... i'd prefer to break my flight with a stop half way, have a walk, some food and check my emails...... and something like PPRune..... lol.

but saying this with the new travel tax...... a short hop then another flight is the way forward......... catching a non stop flight will add the maximum tax on it............. kinda killed it off.

Time to shut up now....... laws of the game has changed

[wanna_be_there]

Seems like a the PIA story just got a little more confusing:


Speaking from PIA’s base in Karachi, spokesman Mamoon Rashid said flights from Pakistan to Heathrow, Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds/Bradford were profitable and could be expanded. PIA will also continue with its Manchester-New York route



We’re still in negotiations with Turkish. It is not yet finalized, but we will be able to take aircraft from any routes that we close and put them into the UK



Rashid said any expansion on UK routes would be in time for the summer timetable, which starts at the end of March


PIA shuts Glasgow route and signs deal with Turkish Airlines | ABTN (http://www.abtn.co.uk/news/1015191-pia-shuts-glasgow-route-and-signs-deal-turkish-airlines)

[bmi expat]

New route to Montpellier starting July 2nd, operating Tuesdays and Saturdays. bmibaby seems to like South of France from Manchester.

[AP1995]

will PIA be expanding at LBA then?

[CabinCrewe]

'Will PIA expand from LBA'
No

[LBIA]

flights from Pakistan to Heathrow, Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds/Bradford were profitable and could be expanded.

Rashid said any expansion on UK routes would be in time for the summer timetable, which starts at the end of March

"AP1995" If you read the 2 above quotes that where posted earlier on here you will notice that expansion for any of PIA's UK routes can't be rule out at this time. LBA, MAN, BHX & LHR may all see some extra services or aircraft upgrades come March when this codeshare starts with Turkish Airlines.

Guess we will just have to wait and see, wont we "CabinCrewe"

[OltonPete]

When I saw it was Tuesday/Saturday I thought that is the end of Lisbon
with TAP on its way and the original schedule was tight anyway but no,
the one aircraft does 8 sectors and the other six most days. All routes
seem to remain served in the peak summer months at least. France is well covered to say the least.

Pete

[CabinCrewe]

"Guess we will just have to wait and see, wont we "CabinCrewe""
Yes, happy to revisit this particular thread.....how long will we give it...til march or maybe 6 months ? You dont honestly think PIA will choose to expand at LBA when their prime routes to the US are about to be axed, the A310s are on there way out and the majority of regional routes ex UK will be routed with TK thru IST.
GLA was announced just a few months ago as being profitable and continuing, its an age old promo ploy....:rolleyes:

[MUFC_fan]

Could a massive expansion drive from TK then be on the cards? I'm sure LBA would appreciate say a 5x weekly IST service?

Maybe MAN would get an upgrade to an A330 or at least increase from (I think) 10x weekly to twice daily.

[Ian Brooks]

Turkish at moment and and for the summer is a daily B738 at Manchester
and I think 5 a week at BHX B73G/B738

Ian B

[wanna_be_there]

You dont honestly think PIA will choose to expand at LBA when their prime routes to the US are about to be axed, the A310s are on there way out and the majority of regional routes ex UK will be routed with TK thru IST.
GLA was announced just a few months ago as being profitable and continuing, its an age old promo ploy


Despite the news reports, I could honestly see LBA being closed due to its proximity to MAN. Its far easier for them to route the pax through MAN rather than a 2 weekly A310 operation. Its unfortunate but it seems to be the way everything is going.

Whilst they are more likely to keep it for the local population, I wouldnt be totally surporised to see BHX go but TK increase, due to it being sandwiched between LHR/MAN.

As for MAN, its obvious the KHI/JFK route is going, but wouldnt be surprised it TK goes either double daily or A330/A340 mix, even with ISB/LHE still served from MAN, either that or PIA will continue to operate all of ISB/LHE/KHI on its own metal.

[lewis529]

Hello Sorry To Go Off Conversation Here But Does Anyone Know Where I Might Find Work Experience Around The Airport? I'm 15 :) Thanks In Advance :)

[ericlday]

Not a moan but as help.....no need to start every word with a capital letter.

[JackRalston]

Regarding Work Experience. I did my Y11 work experience at the airport covering various departments such as Baggage Management, Apron Control and Information Desks and yes i'd recommend it. Your best bet is to contact HR at the airport. I did previously contact Louise Kania although I'm unsure if she still works there. They only take on one work experience student per month (or did in 2005 when I did mine) so it is best to contact them asap. Unfortunately I don't have a number for you but i'm sure browsing the website will produce a result.

All the best :ok:

[Hamburg 2K8]

What are the times and dates of the R1 closure? Will this create a queue for a/c if 23L is in use? A few years ago relatives were landing in MAN around 2.30AM in October, some work was being done on 23R/05L and they had to circle for about 20mins to allow a/c ahead of them to land on 23L and backtrack, I remember them telling me if felt much longer than it actually was and they began to feel sick with all the turns. Where do they usually hold if there landing on 23L/23R? Also, surley this can't happen every night for the next how many months for every A/C landing at night?

[Ian Brooks]

It`s already started and they can land aircraft in blocks of 3 then a gap whilst they all backtrack together plus any departures of course


Ian B

[Suzeman]

Where do they usually hold if there landing on 23L/23R?

If you mean they're rather than there, answer - at the normal holds of DAYNE, ROSUN or MERSI as appropriate. Find all the STARS here

NATS | AIS - Home (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=99&Itemid=148.html)


Also, surley this can't happen every night for the next how many months for every A/C landing at night?

Oh yes it can

http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/Content/runwayclosures

[pzu]

Am booked Cyprus Airways MAN - PFO & return in April or at least I was!!!:ugh:

Was checking a flight detail yesterday and noticed that

1) routing was now MAN - LCA

2) outward leg had been pushed back >24 hrs

called Cyprus Airways

Yes that's correct;

& when were they going to tell me?

Soon!!! :ugh:

They tell me that transportation between LCA & PFO would be to my account

Guesstimate >Euro 350 (for a party of 6)!!! :=:eek:

Mentioned Refund but ? as to when & How much (will there be deductables???

Guesstimate for alternate fares is approx Euro's 760 more ( for party of 6) and due uncertainty of refund time likelihood of incurring c/card charges/interest :=:eek:

Needless to say Cyprus Air is not my favourite airline and will be off my list in future - would have been my first trip but likelyhood of 2 trips a year for foreseeable future

So Jet2 or perhaps Monarch from now on:ok:

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[MAN777]

PZU

Sorry bto hear your being messed about, but dont let the transfer put you off, turn it to your advantage and hire a car or two for the duration, its very cheap in Cyprus and it will give you the opportunity to get out and about in this fantastic and varied island.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Haven't they provided you with a contract to get you from A to B? They are offering you A to C with no means of transport to B.

I am sure you are entitled to a full refund or the airline pays for you to get to PFO out of their pocket as it's within their control.

The only deductions should be in place is Credit Card fees even the taxes & airport fees should be refunded.

You can check out the list of EU National Enforcement bodies for Cyprus & UK and seek their advice by writing to them your predicament. source (http://walesairnetwork.ning.com/page/eu-national-enforcement-bodies) They should provide you with exactly what your entitled to under European Law.

[HXdave]

PZU,

when were you due to travel? and was this booked as a flight only with Cyprus Airways?

HXDave

[mickyman]

EK A380 Ops and pier B

With the daily operation handling 900+ passengers
through the pier has anyone experienced problems
as wanted/predicted by the doubting posters on here
a few months back ? or has it all been drama-queen
free ?

MM

[Ian Brooks]

The people I have spoken to that have flown EK are very pleased with Manchester end

Ian B

[Skipness One Echo]

The EK17 / 18 is being handled during a quiet time in T1. It arrives when most of the based IT is away and departs just as the MON afternoon arrivals begin. I think the evening flight would be the same, the real test may be with any additional morning A330 / B772 that gets dropped amongst some late morning departures. As stop gap infrastructure goes though it seems to be quite effective.

[wanna_be_there]

Reported on another forum:

Air Canada have been loaded back into Chroma Fusion (MAN airlines management/arrivals systems)

AC840 arrives 08:05 daily with B767-300
AC841 departs 09:35 daily with B767-300

Will be good if these guys come back, as airlines on the YYZ route seem to have diminished back to a managable level again (basically just TS this year compared to TCX/TS/Flyglobespan when AC pulled out)

[pzu]

PZU,

when were you due to travel? and was this booked as a flight only with Cyprus Airways?

HXDave

Confirm online booking with Cyprus Airways for flights in April 2011

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[Beavis and Butthead]

pzu

easyJet operate Manchester - Paphos so maybe try them as well.

B&B

[mickyman]

Skipness

So its perfectly timed for now.....is that what you are saying?

MM

[JonnyBfs]

So definetly no TCX this year? Still on the booking engine? Nice to have a non-charter airline though!

[wanna_be_there]

So definetly no TCX this year? Still on the booking engine? Nice to have a non-charter airline though


Doesnt seem to be. The MAN OAG timetable only brings up th TS flights with A332/A310

Theres also supposed to be a 2 weekly Monarch flight to Toronto, but I cant seem to find that one either.

Theres nothing on the Air Canada website, only the update in chroma so far. Thats updated daily so must be a reason why its been put in there.

[Skipness One Echo]

So its perfectly timed for now.....is that what you are saying?

Yes, the last few times I've been through, it has been one of only two or three aircraft on Pier B.

[viscount702]

The Canadian Affairs web site still show the TCX flights to YYZ for summer 2011 in addition to the TS flights. I don't know whether these will operate or not because the TS flights were supposed to replace them. The TCX flights are not available through Thomas Cook as they have in previous years and therefore I don't believe they will operate.

The Monarch flights start in November and are available through Canadian Affairs.

The flights seem to operate MAN-YYZ-GLA-YYZ-MAN

[Jamie2k9]

The route map on the airport website needs to be updated,

Both SNN and KIR need to be swapped around.

[Mr A Tis]

The Canadian Affair schedule seems to be a bit of a mess this year. Yes, the web-site still shows both TCX & TS operating to YYZ, but you can't reserve a specific seat on a TCX YYZ flight. However, they sent me a revised printed brochure 2 weeks ago, with a revised schedule showing no TCX flights to YYZ at all. Just TS daily exc Wed.
Which for me has put me off booking. A 35" pitch on TCX is good, but it looks like you would be consolidated onto the TS A330/A310 with a 32" pitch.
So, I'm going to hold off to see if AC go on sale. Having said that, don't they apply for slots every year-but never operate? MON are operating Gatwick & a Brirmingham 757 to YYZ during the summer. It does not refer to a winter schedule.

[viscount702]

If you go to book a flight from MAN to YYZ with Canadian Affairs for November it shows the MON flights or it did yesterday when I checked

[MUFC_fan]

Personally, if I was booking YYZ for the summer in the next few weeks I'd either book Affair or look at other scheduled carriers via LHR, AMS, CDG etc.

As said above, AC apply every year so until it's announced I wouldn't hold off on anything. Having said that, the system is not usually updated with AC schedules so I suppose we await an announcement! It would fit in if LH and Star are focusing on MAN as a UK gateway.

Surely the extra 3" can't stop you booking with another carrier? Although 35" is fantastic for Y, if TOM don't operate 32" is the best you're going to get with any carrier!

Unless TOM look Canada's way...

[JonnyBfs]

I am booked on a TCX service, but I don't know yet obviously what's going to happen :confused:. New times and everything?

[MAN777]

In the 8Os.& 90s there used to be loads of Canadian charter flights, Wardair 707s, DC10s & 747s, CPair DC8s & DC10s, Laker DC10s and a multitude of other operators (wordways is the only one I can remember the name of)

Anyway my question is, why only a few flights a week now ? Have all the friends and relatives died off now ?

[MUFC_fan]

From what I can gather there are a number of reasons.

Firstly, the industry, rightly so, has far more red tape than it used to. I know of my great grandparents chartering a number of aircraft 40-odd years ago to take them, family, friends and others to the other side of the pond and they did so from their living room. Not for profit, simply as a means for all to get across to the other side. They were also far from well off. It is now pretty illegal for me now to ring up say Astraeus, ask for one of their 757s to take me along with a hundred others I could sell tickets to to YYZ in August. Even if I didn't make a penny profit.

Secondly, as you say, links get lost. Family members die and ties deteriorate sadly.

Finally, and what I believe is most important. It's just as cheap, maybe cheaper, to book on the dozens of other options available to all to get to Canada from the UK. AC, LH, BA, VS, AF, KL, US, AA, UA/CO, DL etc etc can all take me there anytime of the year for a reasonable fare both at the front and back of cabin.

As you say, times change.

[learjet50]

:)Anyone know what was happening on Stand 12 with EK 777 Tonight

LOts of Blue Lights/Emergency vehicles??


Also heard Fly Be will have 1 E195 // 1 E175 // 7 DH 8 for the Summer any confirmation ?:p

[MUFC_fan]

Learjet50,

You're right. The world is not just Canada but let's have a bit of respect for posters eh? Topics come up and posts are dominated by them. It's how it works - discussion.

You'll see that someone will reply to your questions as have been done with the Canada ones. Be respectful.

EK incident sounds like criminal/medical but I'm sure someone will asnwer your question.

Will certainly be interesting where BE places their E175s and on what routes.

Anyone heard anything about the appearing rumours on double daily A380 services from Spring?

[wanna_be_there]

So, I'm going to hold off to see if AC go on sale. Having said that, don't they apply for slots every year-but never operate


Yes it is true AC always apply for slots, but this will be the first time since they actually operated at MAN that they appear in Chroma.

[opnot]

baggage-truck /tug blew water hose lots of steam which was thought to smoke hence the fire brigade

[Manchester Kurt]

CAA figures are out for December...

UK Airport Provisional Statistics: 2010 - 12 | Aviation Intelligence | Economic Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&sglid=11&fld=201012) confirming the 1.9% growth.

Some airports are shedding passengers VERY fast.

[roverman]

December's traffic figures across the UK have to be treated with caution owing to the huge disruption caused by weather. Underlying trends may be masked by these distortions, at Heathrow for instance. In the case of Manchester - which got off fairly lightly - the figure of +2% probably underestimates the underlying growth. MAN gained a few extra flights from LHR in December but lost many of its own due to destination airports being closed or disrupted. Underlying growth at MAN is now stabilising and I wouldn't be surprised if we see +4 or even +5% for January.

[Manchester Exile]

There was also a fair amount of disruption at Manchester in December 2009 due to snow, so I'm not sure what the true underlying growth is in these latest passenger figures. January should give a clearer picture, weather permitting.

Do diverted passengers get included in the CAA stats?

[PQC]

Good on the face of it, but caution needed also.

Think that the barometer re whether MAN and others have turned the corner will be with the March stats. No snow or ash cloud in 03/10 so the first month we can make a valid comparison with.

Promising rumbles re FR and others makes me think that better times are ahead.

[roverman]

FR?. Promising? Hmmm.....'promises' with FR tend to be of the broken variety. MAN would do well to avoid. Harps which appear on the tails of aeroplanes are not played by angels.

[PQC]

Ok, FR isn't everyone's cup of tea.

But what I hear arrivals will be late am / early pm from FR Euro bases when things are quiet.

Better some traffic at these times, even though the actual fees maybe be close to zip.

Better also pax in the terminals during quiet periods with the chance that they'll spend some dosh than no pax at all and no chance of any spend.

And unlike many other UK airports, MAN will never be beholden to the Lo-co's like FR, ABB and EZY. Its strength is its diversity of customers.

Also, the re-emergence of FR at MAN might make others such as ZB and LS sharpen their pencils a little of the Med routes.

[MUFC_fan]

Ryanaor will continue growing, the rumours of ordering up to 300 aircraft being a prime example.

I think people will have to get used to seeing FR more at the likes of LGW and MAN. I also feel that MOL knows already that there is only so much expansion one can make from smaller airports and they will have to cough up the higher fees.

FR can be good for MAN. As long as they abide by the rules and it's likely as the airline matures, in more than one sense of the word, it will.

[Jamie2k9]

FR are dropping 4 of the routes they only started in November at the end of March and are reducing other ones.


FR are not happy at MAN. Part of the reduction is DUB flights was because of airport charges in DUB but airport charges in MAN played a part to. The reduced flights will continue until end of October 2011.

It would be stupid for MAN to let FR in as they would put pressure on easyjet, jet2 and bmibaby. MAN has enough low cost carriers.

[MUFC_fan]

On what grounds would it be 'stupid?'

A very valid point is made above about them moving into quieter time slots which will be of benefit to the airport for reasons laid out.

The reason DUB stayed on the boards was because it was extremely lucrative for the airline. Short flight, high demand, higher than average fares as well good on board sales. The reason they have dropped on frequency, as well as at a number of other UK airports is to do with charges at airports and both governments. Ryanair aren't a charity. They find profitable routes and maximise them.

You could argue that they could increase their fares but remember their business model. They've got to remain cheap - their business model and reputation demands it.

FR would be healthy competition for MAN passengers. We live in a democracy with a western capitalist ideology - we're not Beijing.

[Ian Brooks]

I totally agree with Jamie, when Ryanair operate a route they do not want competition
they therefore lower the rates till the other airline pulls out and then the slightest hint
of the airport/Government putting charges up they are off leaving nobody on route
often never to operated again. Manchester/BHX etc only need airlines that are willing to play on a level playing field.


Ian B

[Turtle controller]

Lots of this FR chat is irrelevant. Airports are licenced and have to accept airlines unless they are capacity constrained. What deters FR is the fact that they cannot any longer pay peanuts and will be granted no exemption from published charges. If they are willing to pay the going rate they will be back should they wish.

[conti onepass]

whats this ryanair thing about...are they coming back?

[Ian Brooks]

Hope not!!!


Ian B

[spannersatcx]

CX summer 2011 schedules have been published, neither MAN or ZRH on it, guess you'll have to wait another 6 months for the winter 2011/12 schedules. :sad:

[Ian Brooks]

It has never been suggested for this summerhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif all I have heard was for late October
therefore winter season


Ian B

[Mr A Tis]

According to a post by seljuk22 on the BMI thread.
BMI will replace Swiss on the MAN-BSL x 5 weekly with A319.

This is in addition to the reported replacement of LH on the MAN-FRA.
& the down sizing of the MAN-LHR route.

Seen no official BMI announcements on any of the above yet.

Wonder what's next? Wolfgang has been busy.

[conti onepass]

also on bmi thread that london/manchester to basel has now been officially confirmed???????????????????

[DCS99]

"also on bmi thread that london/manchester to basel has now been officially confirmed??????????????????? "

Edited for stupidity:

You mean MAN-BSL as an A319?

Yes. I though not originally.

But from Summer Season 2011 it becomes a Mon-Fri BMI aircraft LX4430 and Saturday a Swiss Jumbolino LX378.


More infos here
20.01.2011 (http://www.swiss.com/web/EN/about_swiss/media/press_releases/Pages/pr_20110120.aspx)

"SWISS to substantially expand services from Basel together with bmi"

[Betablockeruk]

A change in Ryanair diversion alternate policy?

3 LPL diverts to MAN rather than the usual LBA/EMA.

[mytravela330]

is this RyanAirs other way of trying to get back into Manchester?? moving their diverts from EMA/LBA to MAN....

[Jamie2k9]

An EZY flight bound for MAN today had to divert to BFS.

[west lakes]

3 LPL diverts to MAN rather than the usual LBA/EMA.

2 Ryanair a/c have diverted from EMA, don't know where to though.

[Jamie2k9]

The main reason for the MAN diverts with FR today were because most FR diverts from Liverpool are normally in the evening or night when the aircrafts are returning to Liverpool but as FR are operateing a number of flights from MAN today it is quicker to bus passengers to MAN rather than Leeds etc.

[Bagso]

This is lifted from the Birmingham thread.

Perish the thought that somebody comes up with some joined up thinking where there is a formula that puts the planes where the demand exists.............. ie Manchester :ugh:


19 January 2011
Bosses at Birmingham Airport have backed calls from London Mayor, Boris Johnson, to realise the potential of existing airports to ease the burden of constrained capacity at Heathrow.
Mr Johnson, speaking on Tuesday (18th January), cited the growing problem of limited capacity in and around the capital and called for boldness in addressing the issue. One of the proposed solutions is tapping into the vast potential of Birmingham as an alternative to airports in the south-east, which would be even more logical when Birmingham Airport is linked to High Speed Rail.
Birmingham Airport (amongst other major regional Airports) is a Strategic National Asset which, with emerging Government thinking, can easily form part of the solution to the over-heated south-east. There is spare capacity at Birmingham - enough capacity to take another nine million passengers immediately – and more than another 21 million passengers in future years, as it improves its capability with a modest runway extension, for which Planning Consent has already been given.

This spare capacity, allied with High-Speed 2, which will bring Birmingham within 38 minutes of the capital – or position Birmingham in ‘Zone 4’ of the Underground map - negate the need for further expansion elsewhere. Even now Euston is only 70 minutes from Birmingham Airport and many in the south-east can probably get to Birmingham as quickly as they could reach Heathrow's check-in desks. Significantly, the Mayor singled out the future connectivity of the Midlands as a key factor in meeting the growing demand for aviation.
Paul Kehoe, Birmingham Airport’s Chief Executive, said, “The government has already decided against airport expansion elsewhere and has indicated that existing spare capacity should be utilised. A more efficient use of regional airports, linked to High-Speed Rail, will ensure that opportunities and created across the UK, rather than draw jobs out of the regions and deliver them to the south-east.
“In these difficult times it makes sense to use and sensibly improve the assets that you have, rather than building whole new runways and demolishing whole villages. Those days are over.
“Aviation has its part to play in an integrated transport system, and rail must play a part in distributing the demand for International Gateways, to airports that have capacity. Birmingham is a prime example as it is just over an hour from London.
“Birmingham Airport is a vital yet underused piece of National strategic infrastructure. It is already the Midlands' premier international gateway.”

[MUFC_fan]

I think the main point of the article is to point out the reasons why London doesn't need another airport or more expansion from other LON based fields. Obviously the main alternative they're offering is BHX which with a highspeed rail link would be quicker to London that current LHR/LGW transfers.

Personally I'm all for the high speed rail. It will offer a competitive alternative to the plane however it will never compete on speed from airport to airport.

The main problem that I see is that it is all well and good saying we're going to create an ultra modern transport network but let's be realistic - that isn't going to happen for a number of years because we in this sovereign state have invented something quite 'ingenious' - Public Consultations.

London needs expansion now - not in 10 years time, otherwise we might as well hand passengers over to Paris, Frankfurt and Amsterdam.

I thought this country was supposed to be 'open for business?'

[Bagso]

I'm also for the HSL, however we have a significant number of passengers located in the North Of England routinely routing or travelling via London to catch a long haul flight.... the flights that carry these passengers are restricting choice for those already based in the SE, and artificially sucking in demand !

Put capacity where idemand exists - Manchester!

The chance of Birmingham realistically taking overspill from London is a barmy idea !

[MUFC_fan]

If HSL means quicker to LON from BHX than it takes now from LGW/LHR/STN/LTN - there is a chance...

[Skipness One Echo]

People turn their nose up at Glasgow-Prestwick. London-Luton is still pushing it even though it's got a * really good service rail into London. (*excl weekends!)

Even Gatwick struggles up against Heathrow, so outside the pork barrel self interest world of local politics, renowned for their business acumen no doubt, "normal" people wil smirk at Birmingham being a London airport.

Another one of these things that might look OK on paper but is comical in the light of day. I agree with Bagso, Manchester is far enough away from the London effect to grow well, Birmingham is *not* the answer to any of London's constraints.

[wanna_be_there]

I said it in the white paper, Airlines will go where oppertunities of growth will exsist.

MAN has more chance of seeing star carriers, With TP starting, increases in BSL and the wealth of star carriers already at MAN, it just makes sense to add the capacity here.

Also, the infrastructure is already in place to handle the increases, it also has a rail station on site with a junction WCML at Wilmslow, so *could* be linked to Euston too. As far as im aware, the rail capacity constraints are on the MAN-Piccadilly line only, so the southern link to crewe could be the answer.

[mickyman]

Hand all the passengers over to Paris,Frankfurt and Amsterdam - no benefit to the country as a whole having London as a mega-port.

'we in this sovereign state have invented something quite 'ingenious' - Public Consultations.' - I now wish to build an airport on your house.

The fact that Emirates are showing just how many people do not want
to fly from Londinium should be a lesson to more airlines.

The third runway will be build - its ConDem U turn season soon.......

MM

[MUFC_fan]

Hand all the passengers over to Paris,Frankfurt and Amsterdam - no benefit to the country as a whole having London as a mega-port.


I know you have a problem with people travelling down to London to fly and can't seem to come to terms with the fact that London's airport provide massive income to the UK economy.

London is the world's city. It sits between Asia and the Americas. It is where business is conducted and where it is hosted. If the world's largest companies aren't able to get their employees into the city effectively they'll simply move their offices elsewhere. So imagine HSBC and Barclays moved their offices along with a number of other MNCs to say, for example, France. Expect your taxes to go up, whether you live in the Shetland Islands or Canary Wharf.


The fact that Emirates are showing just how many people do not want to fly from Londinium should be a lesson to more airlines.


How does it?


The third runway will be build - its ConDem U turn season soon.......


Something we agree on...

Why on earth are people bitter of people travelling to London to take connections to destinations across the globe? Manchester serves a small number of international long haul destinations. I can understand people's grievances if for example, someone travels MAN-LHR-ATL as there is a non-stop flight but people seem to think that someone flying MAN-DXB-HKG is much better than MAN-LHR-HKG (that comment regarding EK being a prime example). At the end of the day they're just buying a foreign product and in fact the UK would benefit more as a whole if they flew via LHR.

Whatever happens LHR is a vital transport hub not just to London - it is to the UK and to the world.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

MUFC_fan / All,

I am sure you have read previous exchanges on this forum in which it is argued that BA is now a private company, and that as such it should not be expected to provide services to the regions beyond anything which directly profits its business model. And, as a consequence of this, BA (justifiably) provides only feeder flights between MAN and its London hubs. Well, fair enough, I happen to agree with this argument. BA is now just another private company, and it should be free to run its business based on the profit motive alone. It does not owe Manchester a network of locally-originating services. BA has chosen to concentrate on LHR and treat UK regional airports as just another feeder spoke on the network. Absolutely fine. That's business reality. As a private business pursuing profit, the choice is theirs to make. They owe no apologies to anybody for this.

But hold on. Then, many of the same people who passionately argue the above present us with an additional message. Apparently, because BA has the "right" flag painted on its tailfins, we should all succumb to some strange nostalgic sentiment and flock to support their (nightmare) LHR network via their unreliable shuttles. Because they are British, that is reason enough. Oh, and (apparently) their contribution to the exchequer is the salvation of the nation! Well, to this argument I say "Poppycock!" (because I'm really polite like that).

BA, justified by its status as a PLC, has elected to offer those of us resident in the regions an extremely unreliable and very limited service with all network points served via London only. And that's when they don't cancel the connecting shuttles. Now if that best suits their business model as a profit-driven PLC then so be it. But please DON'T then use your next breath to lecture we the customers concerning our preference for instead selecting carriers which demonstrably value our business. Carriers which generally do not leave us stranded, and offer us a pleasant travel experience at a fair price avoiding the dreadful airport experience that is LHR.

BA is a private company, not a state carrier which deserves some kind of patriotic loyalty. LHR is an airport which is ideally located for Cockneys. BA chooses not to offer me a pleasant and reliable travel experience on MAN-HKG (using MUFC_fan's example). Emirates (and certain other carriers) do offer exactly that. How do some of these commentators have the nerve to admonish us for selecting alternative carriers which ensure that our journeys are as comfortable, convenient and reliable as possible? If I book a flight as a customer, I will book the journey which best suits me and me alone. Is that self-serving? Absolutely. And so is the way BA chooses to run its business. Fair play to them for that, but the quid pro quo is ... WE REGIONAL CUSTOMERS NO LONGER OWE THEM LOYALTY! They ignore our travel needs, we ignore their product. That's business. No apology required from BA. And no apology required from the MAN public either.

And what is all this nonsense which gets thrown our way about Heathrow's amazing contribution to the UK exchequer? Do some suppose that we northerners do not pay tax too? Does Manchester Airport not pay tax? Do its workers not pay tax? Do the airlines serving MAN - both British and foreign - not pay tax? Do businesses in Northern England (including banks) not pay tax? I assure you that they all do, and every pound paid ends up in exactly the same pot as those earned at LHR. So don't stick us with a guilt trip for choosing a convenient journey ex-MAN on tax grounds. It just won't wash.

Oh, and by the way. These fabulous banks - to which we apparently owe such gratitude for deigning to grace the streets of London - would they be the same ones that we taxpayers (including Northerners) paid MULTIPLE BILLIONS to bail out in 2008 (and ever since)? I think they just might be. And by the way, do you know why they are wildly profitable (good for Britain?) again now? Could it be because some of their garbage investments have been purchased at face value by the taxpayer? Could it be that they have not been forced to recognize the current market value of certain toxic derivatives on their balance sheets and can account for them at face value instead? Could it be that the artificially-low interest rates which have crucified hardworking British savers and retirees have been manipulated to save these very bankers? Are these the same banks which have forced money-printing ("QE") by the Bank of England to keep them solvent? Every pound created under QE dilutes every other pound in existence, to OUR detriment, because there is no additional underlying value backing the new currency units.

We are told to worship at the feet of London bankers who have placed Britain on the slope to sovereign debt default or ruinous inflation in the future. Whilst honest Northern businesses - the traditional backbone of the British economy - have been thrown to the wolves! No subsidies, no bailouts, no acknowledgment to the benefits they bring to Britain via all its airports ... not just Heathrow.

So don't lecture us up here. BA is no more "ours" than is Lufthansa or Air France / KLM. We will put business BA's way when they offer us a reliable and superior product to that offered by the competition. And if they don't offer that, we won't book them thanks. They are entitled to focus on Heathrow only; as a profit-motivated PLC they owe us nothing. They owe us no patronage, no loyalty (and they certainly don't offer them to us). So we owe them nothing in return. That's the other half of the deal. No guilt-trips, no flag-waving, no emotional blackmail regarding London's amazing tax revenues. We are free to book the flights which best suit our travel needs. With the airline which best meets them. Via the hub of our choosing (if not direct). That is the deal which BA made with the British public when it became a PLC run for profit over public service. BA surrendered the quaint notion of 'loyalty to the flag' a long time ago.

Best to all. SHED.

[Bagso]

Is there anybody working at MAG who shares Shed's/Roverman's passion ?

Since the Con Lib Government was formed we have had announcements on the cancellation of Heathrow's 3rd runway, the possibility of budget changes to APD favouring direct regional long haul travel, and now Boris wading in on using regional airport capacity (...er centered on BHX) to mop up demand in the South East........

The silence from MAG board members has been deafening, its as though they are afraid to voice an opinon.

At Least when GT was running the show we had press releases spewing forth almost weekly, they EVEN got past the M.E.N. and made the national press and Radio4 etc !

These were matched to a constant onslaught on MPs across the region to back expansion at Manchester.......it almost became boring BUT there is little doubt in my mind that it did influence policy changes albeit on the margins !

Surely in 2011 there must be a corporate view on how these changes effect Manchester and it passengers but I for one would love to know what these are ?

The CEO at Birmingham has made various comments in recents weeks and yes it might be hot air BUT at least its a view ......

Ok, the market may well dictate events, but it would be nice to hear what the Board at MAG are actually thinking !

[wanna_be_there]

Bagso,

Maybe they are working behind the scenes to make said changes actually happen, rather than out at the front blowing hot air.

If the MP's and so on are working the press calling for MAN expansion, then that frees up the MAN team to actually get things in motion, by talking to airlines and so on.

After all, MAG still havent give an official press release regarding TP/EY/BD expansion. However if forward bookings are so good, maybe they simply dont need to?

[Mr A Tis]

A fine post Shed, could not be expressed better.

[682ft AMSL]

We are told to worship at the feet of London bankers who have placed Britain on the slope to sovereign debt default or ruinous inflation in the future. Whilst honest Northern businesses - the traditional backbone of the British economy - have been thrown to the wolves! No subsidies, no bailouts, no acknowledgment to the benefits they bring to Britain via all its airports ... not just Heathrow.

errr..wasn't it Northern Rock, Bradford & Bingley, Halifax Bank of Scotland and Royal Bank of Scotland that collapsed. These were headquartered in the North and were led into the crisis by CEOs born in Sunderland, Leeds, Scarborough and Edinburgh.

As for the other points, the most commonly requested route from the business community here around Leeds to the management at LBA, is BA to LHR.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

682ft AMSL,

If my posting is open to interpretation as a defence of one bank's incompetent buffoons over those of others, I assure you that was not my intention. Apologies if I leave any doubt on that matter.

As for BA serving LBA-LHR. It may indeed be the most requested route by businesses in your area. But do you expect it to happen? Do you think BA will give a moments thought to the needs of business travelers from your area? Thought not. And that is why many from your area will instead avail themselves of KLM's network via AMS, as indeed they should. If BA doesn't satisfy the needs of Yorkshire businesses, book with a carrier which does. Don't accept any criticism for a perceived lack of patriotic fervour. My original point exactly ...

SHED.

[Skipness One Echo]

LHR is an airport which is ideally located for Cockneys. BA chooses not to offer me a pleasant and reliable travel experience on MAN-HKG

I think it helps to take the personal feelings and BA vs MAN out of it. One of the things I don't enjoy about the North West threads is localism. What this boils down to too often is "If I can't fly from MAN direct I will use foreign competition." This is done with good reason.

BA stuffed MAN from day one. Even BOAC screamed at any competition on routes they didn't even fly from at MAN. Cheerio SABENA long haul then!
Old equipment was retained for years on the One Eleven, replaced by B737-200 as the competition bought the quiter 300 / 400 / 500. MAN long haul operated on the back of LGW add ons. Then managing to destroy everything good about Brymon and British Regional by merging them into a wholly mismanged subsidiary. A PART of BA, wanted MAN T3 as a hub. The more rational part of BA, the money making parts, saw that as throwing good money after bad. Yes they got market share but it wasn't worth the candle with the sheer mis mash of equipment, Ts and Cs and routes. Car crash.

Reaidng between the lines of Shed's post it reads as a North v South when the big battle is seen to be LHR vs AMS/FRA/CDG. You can either believe MAN can compete against offshore hubs as mentioned, or you can support LHR / AMS / FRA / CDG / ZRH / DXB etc. However only one of these options supports two airports in the UK, two sets of jobs, two sets of ground handlers, bus drivers, check in assistants and all.

No one ever said to you shed, that you should worship at the feet of London bankers. The pragmatic reality recognised by Labour was that you tax those billions and spend it on the NHS and schools and try and change the rest of our lives. Over tax them, and they will be working like some of my colleagues, enjoying splended views of Lake Geneva.

That is the deal which BA made with the British public when it became a PLC run for profit over public service.

Just to be clear, when BA was run for public service, in the 1970s and 1980s. Would you class them as a good airline to fly? Regulated high fares? Strikes weekly? The world has changed Shed. The strikes are only 3-4 times a year !

[Ringwayman]

Meanwhile, Etihad is going double daily this year - so bit of ramping up with the August increase to 10 weekly.

No doubt all A330 and looks like it's still going to be 2 class as they're converting 8 A330s from 3 class to 2 class.

[mickyman]

MUFC_fan

'So imagine HSBC and Barclays moved their offices along with a number of other MNCs to say, for example, France. Expect your taxes to go up, whether you live in the Shetland Islands or Canary Wharf.'

My taxes are going up now.......and are these the same bankers who
manufactured the world ecomomy crisis with their American mortgage
fiasco ???

You have a convenient memory

Or is it that you are a southern United fan? or both

MM

[mickyman]

Skipness

You too have a 'localised view of things'......from babylon

MM

[Skipness One Echo]

Mickeyman try adding some facts, information, background, perspective, analysis, statistics or input to the debates or is that asking too much?

My taxes are going up now.......and are these the same bankers who
manufactured the world ecomomy crisis with their American mortgage
fiasco ???
.....on the watch of the supposedly prudent socialist Gordon Brown. He was no fool, he needed to tax their wealth to fund his brave new world. Except he did not undertake due diligence of what they were up to. Odd given that he was the number two in government and became PM. I'm not defending uber rich eejits in banking but be honest about the fools that let them screw us.

Let the top 1% of earners leave the UK and how big a hole in tax revenues is that then Mickey? Not gonna fill much in the F cabin of Emirates or Etihad except out of Geneva is it? Be careful what you wish for!

[Mr A Tis]

Just received a schedule change from Lufthansa for a FRA-MAN flight in June, it states clearly flight is operated by....Lufthansa, so maybe BMI are not operating all the MAN-FRA-MAN rotations. Does anybody know?

[conti onepass]

Im going to dubai via frankfurt in april, 9am from manchester, ive had no changes as per yet.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi Skipness,

I must confess, I was counting down the minutes wondering when you would weigh in on this particular discussion! But don't take that the wrong way ... your points are as always well presented, and your welcome challenges are as usual deserving of response. In the case of your latest posting, I agree with certain points you make and disagree with others. Let's address some issues which you raise.

Firstly, you refer to "localism". The very epitome of a 'Dirty Word' in the Skipness thesaurus! In the past you have labeled me a 'L-O-C-A-L' (which I presume was not intended as a compliment) and a 'Manchester fanboy'. So let me clear this one up. You appear to have a problem with people making travel decisions which place their own needs first, and which do not pay homage to certain "sacred cow" special interests in London.

In my case, I am entirely happy to support businesses which offer good quality services in my area. That is true whether we refer to tradesmen, retailers, Manchester Airport, or the various airlines (regardless of their domicile) which provide useful connections from here. I do not regard this as disloyal in any way, and the idea that I should shun (for example) THY Turkish Airlines (whose services benefit the L-O-C-A-L British taxpaying business community) in favour of a dire transit of Heathrow with an airline which might operate my connecting flight if they feel like it ... well, the idea is just bizarre.

Do you honestly propose that we should endure the BA MAN-LHR-XXX experience to (allegedly) support employment in Hounslow? Or maybe you believe that we should happily pay a double-dose of APD to fatten the exchequer. Please don't forget that supporting the viability of foreign carriers' MAN services in turn supports the economy in this region. And that's apart from the fact that they are more convenient and reliable than BA from the point of view of a Manchester-area customer.

In fact, I don't care whether the airline I use is "local" to my area or not. The "little Englander" brand of patriotism is not for me. I do care that my chosen carrier provides safe, competitive, reliable and convenient service to the destination offered to the "local" customer. My purchasing choice is based on these considerations. My choice to use MAN is down to its convenient location and ease of use for my journey, nothing more. If I could rely on BA not to cancel my connecting shuttle, they might stand a better chance of winning my business as I have nothing against flying with them per se. But experience has taught me that they are not reliable, and I don't owe BA and LHR a living if they think nothing of letting me down. Please remember too that BA's unreliable service to/from the Manchester area has consequences for the national interest too; crucial missed meetings impede British business in any region and are not appreciated. Our national economy is not enhanced by potential new contracts forfeited due to unreliable travel to and from the regions.

So, in answer to your charge: "If I can't fly from Manchester direct I will use foreign competition", I say yes, absolutely. Perhaps the foreign carrier will actually make an effort to get customers to their destination in time for meetings (unlike some). Perhaps they will thank us for our custom and confirm that it is valued. Perhaps my bookings will help them prosper in their commitment to provide a valuable service which benefits businesses in the Greater Manchester economy. No apologies for that. The people round here as just as British as those supporting London's businesses.

What you perceive as 'localism' on my part is actually pragmatism borne of experience. I have the good fortune to be well-traveled across the world, so I am not blind to the advantages enjoyed by certain other countries, cities and regions. But that is not to say that I am in any way ashamed to hail from the Manchester area; I am entirely at ease with my 'local' roots here and proudly acknowledge them. But I do also acknowledge merit elsewhere; I am not an apologist for bitter narrow-mindedness. As I have pointed out to you before, everybody is local somewhere. Making the most of your local environment is not a shameful concept if exercised in the right spirit (ie. not warped tribal animosities etc.). I hope that you are local to a nice area too, and unapologetically make the most of what it has to offer.

You go on to say that my earlier post reads as a North v South battle. Then you have misinterpreted what I have written. It is a Convenience v Inconvenience battle. It is a Reliability v Unreliability battle. It is a Service v Lack of Service Battle. It is a Good Journey v Bad Journey battle. The geography is entirely incidental. But the suggestion that we should show loyalty to a company which provides unreliable service because it happens to employ people in London is just crazy ... the notion makes no sense to me at all. I accept your point that competition from CDG, FRA, AMS and so on is an issue for the London airports system. But it does not follow that the Manchester public should consent to shun our own air services in support of Ferrovial versus its continental rivals! It is not our problem ... sorry.

I don't wish to spend too long on the banking issue, as this is an aviation forum. But I do wish to challenge one pervasive myth which you again raise. We are constantly told (usually by the banks themselves) that Britain is uniquely blessed to have them based here, keeping our economy solvent with the immense taxes they pay to fund our state programmes. The ugly truth is very different. People quickly forget just how much the TAXPAYER has shelled out to preserve these banks from instant insolvency. People saw the reports of "large number" bailouts to the banks ... and their eyes glazed over. The figures involved were so large that the public fails to begin to grasp the true extent of the catastrophe which has befallen the British economy as a direct consequence of reckless gambling by these self-proclaimed "Masters of the Universe". Our national debt has ballooned, we have vast quantities of toxic financial instruments on the state balance sheet, all thanks to these banks. The sums involved in the bailouts (adjusted for inflation) bear comparison with the financial burden of reparations which buried the Reichmark in the Weimar Republic era. That debacle led directly to the rise to power of a certain "strongman" dictator ... it didn't end well. So don't buy into the hype that we are incredibly lucky to have these genius bankers on our shores. Let some of them decamp to Geneva ... after they repay their inconceivably massive debts to us. Then they can see if the Swiss public will bail out their next reckless bet! As for funding the NHS and education ... well, 10% of the bank bailout money should set them right for all eternity!

Moving on, you raise the issue of BA in the '70's and 80's. "The world has changed Shed," you say. Indeed it has, and I'm not big on nostalgia, but for all BA's shortcomings back then they did successfully get me from MAN to CDG, GVA, FRA, AMS etc. whenever I booked them to do so. If they offered services like that today I might still be a 'loyal' regular ... but it is not to be, so we have all moved on to the most convenient contemporary alternatives. Misty-eyed reminiscences of a bygone BA era have no place in shaping my travel plans for 2011!

Good to exchange ideas with you as always.

SHED.

[OltonPete]

Mr A Tis

BHX - FRA times also slightly changed this week but still showing Lufthansa as the operator.

However on a BHX forum today it was posted that staff handling LH have been told to expect a BMI A320 based operating three of the four flights.
The other flight will remain Lufthansa and at BHX it is the 09.10 inbound 09.50 outbound.

I expect the MAN flight will be exactly the same if it all goes ahead.

Same post mentions BHX-BRU on Saturday only, will change from Brussels
Airlines to BMI Regional 145.

None of these changes are reflected in the respective booking engines.

Pete

[groobs]

Superbly put Shed, couldn't have said it any better, your views mirror mine 100%.

Just booked flights to NYC, could have saved £100 by going via LHR, but why run the risk? Friends did that last month and whilst they got to New York, their bags didn't. That happened to me the last time I used LHR long-haul, bags didn't make the shuttle flight back to MAN after flying all around the globe.

I try to use MAN whenever I can, occasionally LPL for the odd weekend away. But if MAN can't do the trip in one hop, they certainly can via AMS, CDG, FRA, MUC and DXB.

That isn't localism, its just being sensible.

[mickyman]

Skipness

You seem to think that bankers operate with the same
laws as everyone else - I do not.Whatever colour of
government gets in the bankers are not affected to any
significant degree.....still waiting for bonuses to be capped -
still waiting for the ConDems to legislate the banking
system (like Labour b4 them)might be a long wait.
The British tax payer bailed out two banks - Barclays
got help from Arabia.
You might find the tax bills of the rich and famous are
dis-proportionate to their earning if they have such people
as accountants doing the sums (footballers exposed this
last week).
It would be interesting to see some figures of the numbers
of out of London passengers travelling to the Capital to travel onwards
through the airports.From a commercial point of view
its obviously an advantage to funnel people through your
main base (as BA have done)and I have no argument with that.
But when an airline provides a service locally it doesnt matter
who/where they come from etc in this 'globalised' world that
bankers have created for us.

MM


Shed....I concur with your post.

[TURIN]

Ringway Man, is Etihad going double daily or ten a week? I am confused. :confused:

[groobs]

It is increasing to 10 weekly.

[Bagso]

Must confess Skippy I also enjoy your posts as well.....beats TV,
even MUFC_Fan to a lesser degree , sorry !

Skip, your a bit like Tony Benn, (well maybe not as left wing), I cannot abide the politics, Mr Benn that is, but everytime he opens his mouth I am totally compelled to listen, as it is usually thougthful, interesting and very well delivered, I could listen to him all day !

Your repeated eulogy's in respect of Heathrow are to be appluaded for the devotion to the cause , BUT whilst you are always quick to unflinchingly give the impression that you will lay down your body to defend the principle of an expanded Heathrow, actual solutions as to how this might be achieved are in much shorter supply!

Thank-you for at least conceeding that Birmingham is a busted flush, (in that at least we agree), having ditched Heathrow the politicians are groping feveroushly for anything that might just fill the void .... Birmingham is a case in point, if it wasnt so incredibly and so utterley preposterous it would be amusing ?

On this wider point we can hammer on all day about expanding Heathrow, but there is simply no room left in the airspace in the South East, therefore if we do want to salvage something where UK Plc benefits, then MAN could be a solution !

As I have said on countless occasions it has to be an option given the 000s of passengers from the North Of England that are still funneled into the SE.

If AMS CDG and FRA is the alternative for these pax, then so is MAN !

...my "original point" which concerned MAG using every opportunity to convey this message appears to have been lost in the fog of prune wars !

[Ringwayman]

it's 10 a week from August but double daily at the end of the year.

From the horse's mouth (http://www.arabianbusiness.com/adapt-be-left-behind-hogan-warns-european-rivals-375153.html) and similar story from the Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/etihad-airlines-growth-spurt-is-good-for-virgin-blue/story-e6frg8zx-1225992579937) with this quote:

"Manchester would initially move to 10 flights a week, but would go double daily before year-end, and there would be new European destinations, Mr Hogan said."

[TURIN]

Thanks Ringwayman.

Good news all round then. :ok:

[MUFC_fan]

Whatever has been said, this sums up the whole argument:


Just booked flights to NYC, could have saved £100 by going via LHR, but why run the risk? Friends did that last month and whilst they got to New York, their bags didn't. That happened to me the last time I used LHR long-haul, bags didn't make the shuttle flight back to MAN after flying all around the globe.


Some people would agree with you spending the extra £100 on your flight and 30 odd million do not. If you have had a bad experience with BA then I would probably do the same as you within reason.

At the end of the day people decide which airport they wish to fly from/to/via by their own experiences, price and suitability. Not because over years BA have pulled out of an airport and focused on the capital.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

But if MAN can't do the trip in one hop, they certainly can via AMS, CDG, FRA, MUC and DXB.

And your bags are just as likely to not make it through any of those airports as LHR:ugh:

Personally, if I'm having to connect then I'd rather do it through London, at least they speak my language and I can use free minutes on my phone during the transfer:ok:

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

MUFC_fan,

With all due respect, your post appears to be rather disingenuous. Your '30 odd million' statistic is misleading as a response to groobs' posting because you are not comparing like with like.

31,825,000 is the number of passengers reported to have been carried by BA in the 12 month period to March 2010. A large number of these passengers were traveling to or from London as their point of origin or final destination; connection issues at LHR are not of concern to these customers. A price differential for alternative flights from MAN is of no interest to the vast majority of these people either.

Moving on to connecting passengers who change aircraft at LHR, many of these are on international transits and are unaffected by the reliability issues affecting BA's Shuttle operations in particular. So, if you wish to contrast groobs' booking decision with other customers on a meaningful basis, you need to compare with the numbers who connect to / from BA's domestic shuttle operations. And arguably, you should be using only the number who use the MAN Shuttles to make your case, as groobs is comparing prices for flights from Manchester.

Let's tackle this subject on a more analytical level and avoid use of eye-catching but inapplicable statistics and hyperbole, eh?

All the best. SHED.

[MUFC_fan]

I think we seem to have lost the actual aim of this discussion.

It was all started when the subject of London's airport restraints came up and Birmingham was proposed (quite rightly I believe) as an alternative to building a new facility as with a new train service the time from BHX to the centre of London would be quicker than that off the Stansted/Heathrow/Gatwick Expresses.

mickyman then came in with his comments regarding "Londinium" and how people do not want to travel via LHR (again without your required stats).

Then I replied regarding how important transport into London is so important for Britain as a whole. BP, HSBC, Lloyds, Aviva, Royal Bank of Scotland, Tesco, Prudencial, Vodaphone, Legal and General and Barclays are all in the top 100 companies worldwide (source (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2010/countries/Britain.html)). 7 of those have their world HQs in London. Add in the hundreds of others companies with UK/European HQs in London and you see the need for ease of access and to be fair to everyone who thinks we can get everywhere on the train - trains don't run on water.

Shed then made a post about how we should not be patriotic and stick with BA (the person who actually brought BA up!) and that the banks are not good for this country. Banks maybe not - but get rid of BP and other oil companies then this country really is in a dire state.

It then grew from there into a BA bashing really about how they offer unreliable services to London and how bad connecting in is Heathrow. Oh and a bit of rubbish about getting rid of the top 10% to Switzerland, and the best bit about spending the money they owe us on the NHS (actually my favourite sentence ever on Pprune I think).

They're the facts and a few figures thrown in for help.

[mickyman]

MUFC_fan

Your interpretation of what I actually wrote is wide of the mark.

People have a choice if a service exists locally -they do not if it
means going south - obviously not everywhere can be served
at your local.
I then asked if anyone had stats as too the number of people
travelling through London from the regions and onwards - that is
why I did not quote any stats - it was a request.

Ease of access for the banking community - do they not use
City......

MM

[682ft AMSL]

Mickyman - this is the estimated origin / destination of LHR terminating passengers. It is a measure of where people start or end their journey, not where they live, so obviously overseas residents landing at LHR and then commuting onwards will be included in these numbers.

Connecting passengers are not shown, but should be easy enough to work out from the route data the CAA publish monthly as is freely available.

Clearly if the government are looking at proposals to take regional traffic out of LHR, the South West and the Midlands are the biggest opportunities

1,353k East Midlands
3,828k East of England
83k North East
427k North West
89k Scotland
29,736k South East
2,835k South West
746k Wales
1,186k West Midlands
570k Yorkshire & Humberside

[MUFC_fan]

Your interpretation of what I actually wrote is wide of the mark.


How can my interpretation be wrong? How can anyone's interpretation be wrong?

In terms of people flying MAN-LHR-XXX and vice versa, I am not sure of exact figures but over 12 months it will be in excess of 1m.


Ease of access for the banking community - do they not use
City......


From where? I don't understand what your point by this quote?

[Skipness One Echo]

Ease of access for the banking community - do they not use
City......


Yes mickey they do. They even have their own A318 on a special dedicated BA route to New York. However it's hardly a strategic and intergrated transport policy.

Clearly if the government are looking at proposals to take regional traffic out of LHR, the South West and the Midlands are the biggest opportunities

Yes they are. They think they can do this. Like a lot of things that politicians say, it's not actually grounded in reality. Like Boris Island or abandoning LHR runway three and replacing it with high speed rail. Great idea top level, good headlines, utterly nonsensical once you get into the detail. Policy makers fail most of the time on the detail.
So no more capacity where it's badly needed (LHR), might be needed (LGW), isn't needed (STN), but more capacity at LCY. As a former local, it's worth mentioning the vast increase in noise levels since the coming of the A318 and ERJ-190. 146s they are not.

The logic goes that if they constrain capacity, then we can grow BHX and other airfields. History suggests that AMS, CDG and FRA will the real winners. London traffic in F and J isn't that keen on using Gatwick, clearly BHX is the answer. Quite how though, is only in the heads of our beloved leaders.

It's worth noticing the amount of rather REALLY nice houses surrounding MAN. Taxing that lot even more isn't going to fill the front cabin in Emirates or Etihad.

[mickyman]

MUFC_fan

'How can my interpretation be wrong? How can anyone's interpretation be wrong'

Clearly you cannot comprehend.
I was saying that having a choice is better than being
forced to fly through London - why do you not
understand that ?

I was gonna right because your th*** but decided not too.

682ft AMSL:

Very interesting - thanks.

Skipness:

Thankyou

MM

[groobs]

Thanks Shed, at least you've grasped the mettle and understood where I'm coming from (and where I want to go :D)

I could have written a long and laboured reply to various people, but there really isn't much point, it'd only be going over old ground. I might be new in terms of signing up, but I've been a very very long time reader!

MAN is doing well, BA's departure is BA's loss.

[Suzeman]

Is there anybody working at MAG who shares Shed's/Roverman's passion ?

The silence from MAG board members has been deafening, its as though they are afraid to voice an opinon.

At Least when GT was running the show we had press releases spewing forth almost weekly, they EVEN got past the M.E.N. and made the national press and Radio4 etc !

These were matched to a constant onslaught on MPs across the region to back expansion at Manchester.......it almost became boring BUT there is little doubt in my mind that it did influence policy changes albeit on the margins !

Surely in 2011 there must be a corporate view on how these changes effect Manchester and it passengers but I for one would love to know what these are ?

Bagso

You seem to be quite worried by all this lack of public comment? Why? It doesn't mean nothing is happening.

If you think that MAG has no views think again. They certainly do - it is just that most of the time they choose to express it to the movers and shakers rather than through the press and to us on Prune. Why should we be told? Does every company have to reveal its policies and strategies in public - I don't think so!

MAG has always been highly proficient in lobbying and putting its views forward with a great degree of success. If the press needs to be used it will be. As you say, when Gil Thompson was boss, there was a need to use the press as the Sir Humphreys in Whitehall (who by and large tell their "here today - gone tomorrow" ministers what to do) did not take note of oiks from a small aerodrome north of Watford. They were in thrall to the views of BA (who were desperate to stop foreign carriers operating to MAN and other airports) and to a lesser extent the owners of LHR, the BAA.

In the instance of getting SQ in, a massive press campaign added to cross-party pressure from MPs publically shamed the Transport Minister of the day - can't remember who now - and they started. Many other lobbying exercises have followed over the years, mostly sucessful. Most of these you will be totally unaware of because a result was achieved without a need to involve the press. The end result of this is that the MAG view is now respected in Whitehall - may not always be agreed with - but at least it is heard along with other interested parties. So all the lobbying (public and private) has been rather more than influencing policy changes albeit on the margins !


There will be an official consultation on aviation policy this year and you can be sure that MAG will be responding. I'm sure that they will issue a press release at the appropriate time and I seem to think that all the responses have to be made public anyway?

What about BHX and the press? Almost certainly, Kehoe at BHX was pressurised by the press to respond to the suggestion about the rail link and so had to say something.

As to the nonsense issuing from Boris and other politicians, it is just that, as Skipness has said. But BHX may indeed become an alternative for some passengers in the South East when the rail link is up and running. And when will that be? 2026 is the earliest date that it will be in use and there is plenty of potential for delay. What happens in the meanwhile? Possibly extra capacity at LHR with parallel runway ops - still a political hot potato. Limited capacity at LGW and capacity available at STN/LTN.

So when LHR finally is totally full what choice do the airlines in the South East have? Each airline will make its own choices. Bigger aircraft ? Possibly. More ops at other SE airports? Quite likely. Additional ops to some UK regional airports like BHX, MAN and Scotland? Also quite likely. Some new flights will also go to Continental Europe instead of coming to the South East. That is a consequence of the policy and prevaracation the UK has adopted over airport expansion and it's too late now with AMS, CDG, FRA all expanding. The market will decide.

So a lot of froth being created about this. I'm sure we will continue this debate when we know what the MAG views are :E

Suzeman

PS Excellent posts Mr Shed - couldn't agree more.

[MUFC_fan]

MAN is doing well, BA's departure is BA's loss.


And we finally here the words of where is all comes from...

I'm a stark MAN supporter. It's my local major airport and that that I use mostly. I too have been lucky to have been to many destinations across the world on dozens of airlines via many airports.

My point is that whatever we say about Heathrow, whether it builds world class terminals or opens a dozen runways making it the easiest airport in the world to transfer through - while BA rule in London, people on here will not let it drop and those words above pretty much clear it up.

Some people want to fly via DXB, others DOH or maybe AMS. But people on here have to accept that people do want to fly via LHR from MAN.


The fact that Emirates are showing just how many people do not want
to fly from Londinium should be a lesson to more airlines.


Complete and utter tripe. DXB vs LHR takes into account so many factors it's almost impossible to compare the two routes to the Middle/Far East/Australasia. Price, schedules, availability, airports, personal preference, airports, cost, transfers, previous experience, word of mouth, reputation etc. etc. You cannot say that because people are flying with Emirates that they don't want to fly via LHR.


Hand all the passengers over to Paris,Frankfurt and Amsterdam - no benefit to the country as a whole having London as a mega-port.
[quote]

And I'm thick? How on earth is it no benefit to the country?

Losing potential business to a competitor is always a loss to any country whether it happens in London, Manchester, Bristol or Newcastle. Remember this country operates a big pot in which all the money goes into and London is definitely an exporter of money to the regions whether we like it or not.

Is it so hard to understand that without expanding the likes of CDG, FRA and AMS have potential capacity here and now. I would love more than anything for MAN to grow massively as a benefit of London's lack of resources. But it just isn't going to happen. There is so much more for companies to go to London for than Manchester. The BBC has moved some offices to Manchester and there is major investment in the city but it's going to take time. London needs capacity now. MPs see this, economists see this, businesses see this - why can't you? Or are they all thick too?

It really is very simple - even I can understand it and I'm thick! More business means more jobs, more jobs means more people have more money, many of those with more disposable income(stop me I'm getting dizzy!) for which they will spend within our economy. How is that not good news?

[quote]
Clearly you cannot comprehend.
I was saying that having a choice is better than being
forced to fly through London - why do you not
understand that ?


At what point did you say that?

This subject is nothing to do with outbound MAN passengers. This all started about inbound passengers using BHX to access London. It was then asked why BHX was blowing hot air and not MAN.

As soon as someone mentions the word 'London' on this thread, BA automatically comes up and is immediately condemned because they made a business decision to focus on their main hub down south.

Britain - open for business, as long as you don't want to expand in the world city...

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

MUFC_fan / All,

In response to your latest remarks, I must remind you that my posts go out of their way NOT to condemn BA for choosing to concentrate on their LHR hub. If in doubt, re-read what I wrote earlier. They are a PLC; their mandate is to pursue profit in whatever manner they see fit. What I do condemn is the attitude of afew people who vilify customers in the Manchester area for selecting carriers which actually offer the best solution to their particular travel needs. Because BA genuinely DOES have reliability issues with their shuttle connections (I would dearly LOVE to see these resolved), customers' preferred option is frequently not BA via London. These travelers should not be demonized as disloyal or unpatriotic for their entirely logical choices.

Nowhere in my postings do I suggest that I wish anything other than success for companies such as BP, Vodafone and Tesco. Where did this idea spring from? I would actually *like* the banks to be successful too ... sadly, they are not, and we will all pay a heavy price for that for many years to come. What was your point in mentioning this list of large LSE-listed multinationals? Surely you are not suggesting that air travel customers in the regions are going to threaten a FTSE100 titan's viability by flying direct from MAN instead of via LHR? Please tell me that you are not suggesting that my bookings with Jet2 to Rome and Delta to Atlanta will bring BP and Vodafone to their knees?!!! Let's just keep matters in perspective, please.

You also imply that I have suggested "getting rid of the top 10% to Switzerland". I do not use these words anywhere. The point I did make was to remind readers of the sheer scale of losses that reckless banks have lumbered us with. The grandchildren of today's taxpayers will still be suffering the consequences of the banking catastrophe. Any suggestion that the banking industry has been a massive net asset to our nation is now categorically void. My tongue-in-cheek remark about the NHS and education draws a comparison between the perceived high tax cost of maintaining them versus the immense and growing burden of bailing out the banking industry. And don't worry ... there is much more to come. Credit Default Swaps (CDS derivatives) will soon come to be recognized as a far greater problem than MBS's were in 2008. Whole countries need bailing out now due to the extent of their native banking liabilities.

Finally, a brief word of thanks to those who have commented on my postings. Mr ATIS, mickyman, groobs, suzeman, bagso, skipness and anybody else I have missed.

Best to all. SHED.

[groobs]

MUFC_fan: I'd love to use BA and connect via LHR. T5 is a nice place to catch flights from.

But unfortunately, they just repeatedly fail me and my colleagues on an all too regular occasion that it really isn't worth the hassle any more, other airlines and airports offer me a better combination thesedays, they seized the opportunities afforded to them.

[Mr A Tis]

I too would use BA longhaul via LHR except for the fact:
1. The shuttles are far too unreliable ( delayed or cancelled )
2. It is over priced ( eg a flight HAM-LHR-LAX would be cheaper than MAN-LHR-LAX etc).
My lack of BA flying since the demise of BACON is purely because the current offerings do not suit my requirements, not because of some spat over their policy.

If you want to transit at LHR not with BA, then it involves a pretty awful terminal change, whereas at AMS FRA ZRH or MUC it is usually pretty effortless

For those reasons my longhaul requirements are usually met very well, very reliably & reasonably priced from MAN with Delta / Swiss / Lufthansa / Qatar.

By supporting these airlines here in Manchester, we are supporting our airport, our jobs and our local economy.

keep up the good work Shed.

[mytravela330]

after reading for some time now about a re-start of a MAN-HKG service which will be good for the 138,000 passengers who have to travel down to LHR, is there any plans in the near future that a MAN-LAX will re-start??

[Skipness One Echo]

after reading for some time now about a re-start of a MAN-HKG service which will be good for the 138,000 passengers who have to travel down to LHR, is there any plans in the near future that a MAN-LAX will re-start??

UK-West Coast USA is pretty hard to make money on even from LHR with higher yields up front. It's a Hell of a lot further than New York but the fares don't reflect that. MAN-LAX is unlikely to happen as it would be point to point with no hub at each end. All the US majors at MAN are spoke to hub with good reason.

[Suzeman]

after reading for some time now about a re-start of a MAN-HKG service
My sources suggest this will not happen at least until the A350 comes along. Someone else also posted that here some weeks ago. Hope we are wrong but there you go.

And I totally agree with Skipness (for once) about LAX - no chance.

Suzeman

[wanna_be_there]

Unfortunatly, the furthest west MAN will ever have on its boards is LAS.

[roverman]

I take the point about linking hubs, but I wouldn't entirely rule out a direct MAN-LAX at some time in the future. There have been discussions with airlines on the possibility of a 5th freedom service originating to the east of MAN and terminating at LAX. Or perhaps there could be ANZ at some point. More likely again when the B787 / A350 are here.

[Suzeman]

Thanks Roverman - an interesting possibility which I should have thought of! :O Must be getting old......

And just for Mr Bagso, the availability of 5th freedom rights for most carriers at UK regional airports in bilaterals was mainly due to the lobbying of the UK Government by Manchester and later BHX and the AOA. Not much used but at least the opportunity is there if needed.

Suzeman

[Bagso]

Thanks suzeman

...even I dont don't think MAG are sat back and do nothing but as you yourself pointed out the publicity generated back then shamed the Governement into action.

I just think a similar approach may work this time but surely that will only work with the backing of the media ?

By any sensible measure Manchester would be the place to develope, but it appears the Government have looked on a map with a compass !

[zfw]

From t airport Management today......


I am delighted to announce that Ryanair will today confirm plans to expand its services from MAG Airports from this summer.
Starting in April, Ryanair will operate four flights a week to Madrid (a new destination for MA), six flights a week to Alicante, four a week to Tenerife and daily services to Faro all from Manchester Airport. In addition, Ryanair's existing 17 services per week to Dublin will increase by four to 21.

Discuss

zfw

[763 jock]

So O'Leary has come back then. No doubt creating "thousands of new jobs" in the north west. Where do I apply?:mad:

[Nomoresteerage]

BUDGET airline Ryanair is to announce a major expansion of its Manchester routes, 17 months after axing all but one service.
The Irish carrier's outspoken boss Michael O'Leary was hosting a press conference at Terminal 2 at Manchester, to reveal that Ryanair will be launching a number of new flights over the coming months, and increasing the number of daily flights to Dublin.
Among the destinations Ryanair will fly will be holiday destinations such as Alicante, Faro and Tenerife and also to the Spanish capital Madrid.
He will explain too his rapid change of heart, having previously fallen out with Manchester Airport bosses over landing fees (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/15336-600-jobs-to-go-as-ryanair-pulls-90-of-manchester-routes.html).
Sources at Manchester Airport said the new agreement with Ryanair is on "commercial terms" - rather than the deal previously sought, whereby the airline would expand at Manchester and in return, not pay for landing slots.
After all but quitting Manchester Ryanair expanded aggressively at Liverpool John Lennon Airport.
The deal at Manchester could potententially bring 600,000 more passengers and £3m a year. A significant number of jobs will be created too.
The Dublin-based carrier operates more than 1,400 flights per day and expects to carry approximately 73.5 million passengers in the current financial year.


News / Ryanair's rapid Manchester return THEBUSINESSDESK.COM (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/119978-ryanair-s-rapid-manchester-return.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NorthWest_26th_Jan_2011_-_Daily_E-mail)

[zfw]

Following the liquid ban in 2006, Manchester Airport invited catering companies to tender for a permanent presence on the airfield to try and address the issues that airside workers had getting food and liquid through security. Willow Catering won the contract and have been on the Tower Road for over two years. Sadly they have now decided that their presence at the airport is no longer commercially viable and they will be removing their catering van this week.

[Manchester Kurt]

Take-off: Cut-price flights and jobs bonanza as Manchester Airport lands Ryanair deal - Manchester Evening News (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/transport/s/1406287_takeoff_cutprice_flights_and_jobs_bonanza_as_manches ter_airport_lands_ryanair_deal)

Is MOL correct?

"We know that Mancunians and Scousers don't like each other – so Mancunians will use Manchester and Scousers will use Liverpool airport where we also fly from. We think the market is big enough and we need the extra capacity. Any extra seats at Liverpool will be taken up by people from there.”

[brian_dromey]

The press conference is at T2, assuming that FR are moving to T2, then? I guess it would make sense from the airports point of view to get some less seasonal traffic through T2. Now that EK are at 1 and AF are (sometimes) at 3.

[Manchester Kurt]

Looking at the MEN article they are moving to T2 to fly out of the peak hours to keep prices down.

[Suzeman]

Bagso

Circumstances are quite different.

In the SQ example, it was government policy not to allow them to fly to MAN (with backing of course from BA). During internal discussions the Government refused several times to change this. Hence the public naming and shaming.

In the current example, it is NOT (yet!) Government policy to use BHX as an overflow to London and the South East. It is just an idea some politicians have had which on the face of it seems a simple solution. Of course it isn't as simple as that as numerous posters have explained. Boris still supports what someone amusingly described as Boris Island Airport in the Thames estuary but that is not surprisingly running into a load of flack, so here is a simple solution to help him as he supports not expanding LHR. The BHX option may or may not appear in the consultation document - in fact I'm sure it will.

The consultation on UK Aviation policy will be held this year and during this process I'm sure MAG will put its case in discussions and written submissions. Now is not the time to be going public and I'm sure a public statement of MAG's position will be made in due course.

Even if the BHX solution becomes policy, I do not believe it will do much harm to MAN's position anyway - unless the White Paper says no more expansion at MAN :E - that then will be the time to go ballistic in the press and elsewhere. But I can't believe that constraining MAN will be suggested as it is madness not to use spare capacity everywhere it can be used

What about BHX. Firstly, the High speed rail will not be completed until 2026 at the earliest. Before then with capacity constraints biting in the SE airlins will be looking for alternatives and MAN has to be one to be looked at.

Secondly the Government cannot force airlines to go to BHX -it would not only be illegal and open to challenge but would also leave the UK open to retailatory action as has been pointed out earlier.

If and when the high speed line gets to BHX, it will undoubtedly become a more attractive alternative for some pax from the south east. But the airlines are still only going to go where they see an opportunity and MAN still has a very good chance of continuing to pick up some extra business. In fact there is an argument that says more passengers from 'oop North routing over continental hubs or on direct flights releases valuable spare capacity at LHR to be used by those who need it.:ok:

Suzeman

[Skipness One Echo]

The press conference is at T2, assuming that FR are moving to T2, then?

Come to think of it I seem to recall FR B737-200s being at T2 in the first place? When did they move across to the luxuries of the B Pier? Even then they used Stand 201 which had no airbridge.

Are stands 200 and 201 PWFU or just a handy parking space for equipment at the mo?

Comedy question : If the Scousers won't use MAN and the Weegies don't use PIK then explain to me how people living South of Watford, within the safety of the M25 are exepcted to venture "North" to somewhere called Birmingham.
All the good reasons on paper fall apart when the real world gets involved. London looks South to France and east into Europe, not North. I see this as a Scot ever day, it's not a criticism, just a cultural thing.

[pwalhx]

It is just a typical O'Leary attention grabbing comment. I have heard plenty of scouse accents at Manchester Airport and seen plenty of mancs at Liverpool airport.

[Jamie2k9]

4 new Ryanair routes to Madrid, Tenerife, Faro and Alicante. Dublin to go 6 daily.
Ryanair Announces 4 New Manchester Routes to Alicante, Faro,? (http://www.ryanair.com/ie/news/ryanair-announces-4-new-manchester-routes-to-alicante-faro-madrid-and-tenerife)

[roverman]

Not sure where the 4 daily flights to Dublin increasing to 6 comes from. MA's press release says 17 a week going to 21 a week as quoted in zfw's post earlier on this thread.

[Jamie2k9]

If it goes to 6 daily it will put huge pressure on Aer Lingus.

[dwlpl]

If it is 6 then thats the idea.

[Airfrance7]

And Servisair to be Ground Handling Agent for all new Ryanair routes then?

[mytravela330]

but how long will Ryanair be at MAN for this time, will michael o`leary spit his dummy out again if the airport dont bow down to him, or is MAN the easy option for him cos it hasnt really worked out at Leeds Bradford......

[The96er]

And Servisair to be Ground Handling Agent for all new Ryanair routes then?

Correct, In fact Servisair are currently advertising on local radio for all positions.

[positive]

Might the 6 daily Dublin flights be 3 return flights?

[Random Flyer]

Great news regarding MAN-MAD, a route which has for too long been unserved.

Comedy question : If the Scousers won't use MAN and the Weegies don't use PIK

I'm pretty sure Glaswegian's do use Glasgow Prestwick Airport, why on earth would they "boycott" there own airport? I think over 70% of the airports annual passengers are Glaswegian's.

Your not suggesting the Ryanair flights to Alicante, Faro, Tenerife etc are full of Spaniards, Portuguese and Canarians are you? If so, flights to Madrid and Lisbon must be on the cards.

Maybe suggesting Glaswegian's boycott Edinburgh Airport, or Brummies boycott EMA airport would have been a more accurate comment.

[AP1995]

i have just looked on the ryanair website and it will not let me look at the times or dates to book to alicante does anybody know anything?

[groobs]

Apparently they'll show up tomorrow (27th)

[mytravela330]

iv just tried to book a flight to Alicante for may, june or july and its saying this flight is full.....

[pwalhx]

The press release says they will be available to book from 27th so suggest you try again tomorrow.

[Suzeman]

Not sure where the 4 daily flights to Dublin increasing to 6 comes from

A spin from the FR PR department, so no surprises there. 3 flights a day each way for a week is 21 flights which is the number which happens to be in the MA release. But it sounds better when you say 6 per day even though that is made up of 3 DUB-MAN and 3 MAN-DUB. (Unless he still thinks he will be taking over EI :E)

Similarly as pwalhx has already pointed out the Mancs v Scouse thing is just a headline grabber for MOL to get things in the press and as usual has no substance to it. The press always head for his conferences as you never know what is going to happen. Remember his discussion in Germany when someone asked about transatlantic ops and he said he would have a business class where one of the services offered would be blow jobs! When the poor girl translator hesitated, he asked her if she knew the German word for blow job. It got massive healines throughout Germany. Seems like we have escaped quite lightly here!

but how long will Ryanair be at MAN for this time, will michael o`leary spit his dummy out again if the airport dont bow down to him, or is MAN the easy option for him cos it hasnt really worked out at Leeds Bradford......

The airport hasn't and won't concede. Interesting he has come back on terms available to all. See the fees and charges book; the flights involve the use of T2 in off peak periods when charges are low even though I guess there will still be peak hour flights from / to DUB as these are probably the higher yielders.

MOL has ordered loads of new aircraft and has to do something with them. In addition he probably sees EZY and LS develop the business at MAN and wants a slice of the action.

Suzeman

[Higher Archie]

see the interview with M O'L

‘Go to the loo before boarding...’ | News | Manchester Confidential (http://www.manchesterconfidential.co.uk/News/General/Go-to-the-loo-before-boarding_16770.asp)

It appears that Ryanair will pay an airport charge to get market-share but, if it's more than agreed, then they are off. Fair enough. But a bonkers comment that customers know nothing.

Does MAN need Ryanair or does Ryanair need MAN? My thoughts are with the latter.

Archie

[roverman]

I thought MO'L's language was noticeably concilliatory today as he talked of the need to concede on airport fees if his airline is to grow business at MAN. There was no attempt to suggest that MAG had come back bearing gifts. 'Mutually beneficial' probably captures it. Mr. O'Leary has talked recently of the need for a presence at mainstream airports and MAN has off-peak capacity available, particularly at T2. MAN is taking up an opportunity whilst maintaining its policy of doing business which offers a reasonable return, no give aways. I admit to having been an FR-sceptic but 'This could be the start of a beautiful friendship'.

[eu01]

The source as above (MOL talking to Simon Binns)
We know you have to pay for sex and you have to pay to be at Manchester Airport too.Oh God, I've never paid for sex in my life, am I really so old-fashioned guy? From my point of view, the most obvious difference lies in the approach to this issue. The sex need not to be a service (or should not if you ask me) and can (should) happen at no cost. In contrary, using the typical airport services ought to be paid for by the airline or at least by a sponsor, if available.

Kind of off-topic, sorry.

[mickyman]

eu01

You never buy a round then.......!!!!

MM

[chiglet]

You never buy a round then.......!!!!


No, but he "gets" around..... :ok:

[MUFC_fan]

Government high speed rail plan ‘total nonsense’ : Gatwick Airport News Stories (http://uk-airport-news.info/gatwick-airport-news-260111a.html)

Someone to listen to...

[Nomoresteerage]

return to Manchester Airport just 17 months after it pulled the majority of its routes was due to a more positive attitude from its new management team, according to the airline's chief executive Michael O'Leary.

"I think the old lot didn't really know how to grow and presided over traffic declines for the last couple of years.

"There's a new team in place now who realise that they've lost out to places like Liverpool, Birmingham and East Midlands - all of which have been growing rapidly with Ryanair services."

The Irish budget airline has opened new routes to Alicante, Faro, Tenerife and Madrid from Manchester and increasing the frequency of its Dublin service from four to six flights per day.

Ryanair said that the routes will bring in 600,000 passengers, creating 300 jobs.

O'Leary added that based on last year's passenger numbers at the airport of 17.5m, the extra passengers Ryanair will bring will allow it to grow visitor numbers for the first time in several years by 4% "at a stroke".

"Two years ago Manchester refused to deal with us on the grounds of prostitution. Well, the good news is we're all back in the sex industry."

Ryanair will compete on three of the routes - Faro, Alicante and Tenerife - with existing operators easyJet, Jet2 and Monarch. However, Madrid-Manchester is a route which hasn't operated since BA Connect's service between the two cities ceased in 2007.

O'Leary has also set his sites on the tour operator companies flying passengers out to the Mediterranean.

He said that he did not believe the routes would cannibalise sales from existing routes at Liverpool, Leeds-Bradford or Birmingham, stating that the airline's passenger numbers increased from 66m to 72m this year and expects to increase in its current year to 78m. It will also take delivery of 40 new planes this year.

"The deal is worse than last time but we're not delivering as much growth as we were. We're paying higher costs now but the traffic numbers we have to deliver are lower. I think it's a fair arrangement.

"We've always recognised that Manchester is an expensive airport. It's not a Liverpool."

He added that Manchester faces different sets of challenges as a major international airport in how it integrates lower fare operators like Ryanair into its offer alongside some of the premium, long-haul carriers.

However, he said that the management team led by new chief executive Charlie Cornish and managing director Andrew Harrison had worked with the airline on identifying specific routes and markets such as the Western Mediterranean.

"The strategy is tell us what routes you want to grow, incentivise us to do it and we'll grow those markets.

"I hate to damn them with praise but we've at last got some management here who want to grow the airport."



News**/**Management change brought Ryanair back to Manchester, says O'Leary THEBUSINESSDESK.COM (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/120603-management-change-brought-ryanair-back-to-manchester-says-o-leary.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NorthWest_27th_Jan_2011_-_Daily_E-mail)

TFS flights are operated by TFS based plane - not sure on the rest.

[Manchester Kurt]

From elsewhere...

Ryanair hopes to land 5 MILLION extra passengers at Manchester Airport


The boss of low-cost airline Ryanair has revealed he is in talks with Manchester Airport to introduce new routes which could see up to five million extra passengers flying out.

Chief executive Michael O’Leary was speaking just a day after the M.E.N. revealed that the carrier had struck a multi-million pound deal with the airport to introduce thousands of budget flights.

He says the next step is to base his planes at Manchester – which would mean dozens of new routes and more cut-price tickets. It would also create additional jobs – on top of the 600 already promised.

Mr O’Leary said: "This will be incremental growth but we are growing like gang-busters.

"The challenge for us is that we still don’t have a base here. There’s the possibility of opening up a base but it’s important for us not to run before we can walk.

"We’ve been here before and fallen out but hopefully at the end of the summer we will be announcing more growth at Manchester and if we were looking at a base it could be between three and five million passengers annually."

Take-off: Cut-price flights and jobs bonanza as Manchester Airport lands Ryanair deal

The current Ryanair deal, understood to be worth at least £3m a year, will bring 600 jobs and 600,000 passengers to the region. The move – with new routes to Alicante in Spain, Faro in Portugal, Tenerife and Madrid, as well as increased frequencies on its existing Dublin service – will boost traffic at Manchester by between four and five per cent a year.

It is also expected to trigger a price war between other low-cost carriers. EasyJet, Jet2, bmibaby and Flybe already fly out of Manchester.

The return of Ryanair at Easter marks an extraordinary U-turn as it comes less than 18 months after the airline pulled out, sparking a war of words with airport bosses.

Andrew Cornish, who was the airport’s managing director at the time, famously hit out at Ryanair, saying Manchester had refused to ‘prostitute’ itself to keep the carrier.

It is understood that the Dublin-based airline had been demanding to land for free – it had previously paid £3 per passenger – but in return it would bring in 28 new routes the following summer.

Although Mr O’Leary says both parties have ‘moved forward’ and the relationship has been repaired, he issued a warning shot to airport chiefs.

He said: "I’d like us to continue to grow but we will take it step by step. If the costs go up, we would not hesitate to pull flights."

He also described the recession as ‘fantastic’ for his airline, saying it was not true that people had stopped flying but passengers were now more budget-conscious.

The carrier will move to Terminal Two and the majority of its flights will operate at off-peak times – commanding cheaper landing fees. But it is hoped the agreement will boost revenue in the terminals, with extra passengers spending more money in the shops

[Ian Brooks]

As far as I can make out
Alicante Arr 18.00 Dep 18.25 Daily ex Mon
Faro Arr 19.00 Dep 19.25 Daily ex Sat
Madrid Arr 14.40 Dep 18.35 Mo, We, Fr and Su
Tenerife Arr 20.45 Dep 18.45 Mo We, Fr and Sat
Dublin not updated at present but looks as if flights will inbound from DUB and incl
aircraft change on MAD/TFS

Ian B

[Jamie2k9]

MAD arrives at 18:10 and departs at 18:35
TFS arrives at 18:20 and departs at 18:45

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

So let's see. In the first article posted by 'nomoresteerage' Ryanair is creating three hundred jobs. In the second article posted by 'Manchester Kurt' it is six hundred jobs. And all for the *equivalent* number of rotations accounted for by one based B738. Wow, this job creation lark is easy ... I wonder why ministers find it such a struggle! [Yes, I know about the standard formulas which RYR always points to].

Based on this mathematics, I suppose Jet2 and Monarch employ most of the working-age population in NW England?

Whilst Madrid is a welcome gap-filler, it is a great concern that all the other new routes to be introduced by RYR fly head-to-head with MAN's most loyal based carriers. And it appears that future RYR expansion will concentrate on the Western Mediterranean sunshine routes. I wonder how many frequencies by MON / EZY / BMI / TOM / TCX / EXS etc. will be forfeited as a result of this development (and how many "millions" of jobs will be lost in consequence).

I am usually elated when I learn of a major new contract for Manchester Airport, but this one leaves a sense of foreboding. One does wonder whether MAG management were complicit* in persuading RYR to pitch in on core routes such as TFS, ALC and FAO rather than encouraging destinations such as Marseille and Bremen (as examples) which added something to the airport's portfolio last time round. What about incentivizing other gap-filler routes such as Polish destinations instead?

Good luck to all involved. I hope you know what you are doing, MAG ... the forthcoming spectacle smacks of blood-sport! Will our 'loyal' new best friend prove to be good for business in the long term?

SHED.

* Quote from Business Desk interview: "the management team led by new chief executive Charlie Cornish and managing director Andrew Harrison had worked with the airline on identifying specific routes and markets such as the Western Mediterranean."

[MUFC_fan]

They always include in their totals the jobs they believe will be created as a RESULT of their services indirectly, not just directly by their flights.

Obviously they are only estimates and I'm sure a number of times more jobs are created and others less.

[mytravela330]

I started to wonder where they got the figure of 600 new jobs, from 4 routes, at Menzies we have 3 people on a turn around, and when Jet2 or BMIBABY start new routes, we dont take on hundreds of more staff......

[Jamie2k9]

Ryanair MAN - DUB not going to be 6 flights each way daily. It will be 3 daily each way.

[Bagso]

I think we will beg to differ suseman.

I would like to see the airport wading in and doing some flag waving "hot air " or not !

I noticed that the CEO at LGW has now also thrown his hat in the ring with a string of much publicised interviews this week !

The comments re expanding Birmingham did not just come from "Mad Boris" but were also made by David Cameron and Theresa Villiers who covers aviation policy !

It will of course never see the light of day I just think Manchester could get some good publicity even if it does nothing more than get the message out to potential passengers that there is life outside the M25 !

PS...good to see the new CEO getting himself about !

[Mr A Tis]

RYR move to T2 kind of blows out the water the previous scheme of turning T3 into the loco terminal.
I see the standard RYR 25 minute turn around is applied to the new routes, which are all operated by overseas based aircraft. Interesting target when operating from the cul-de-sac that is T2.
Like Shed, I'm worried of the impact on Jet2 & Monarch by adding capacity to destinations already well served.
Seems to be the same policy as easy, to spoil existing routes rather than target so many gaps in the MAN portfolio..... Marseille, Bilbao, Vienna, Bremen, Warsaw, Berlin, Krakow, Seville, Porto etc.
Good luck to RYR, MAG & the punters that book with them, I hope it work out OK for everyone.

[MUFC_fan]

I see the standard RYR 25 minute turn around is applied to the new routes, which are all operated by overseas based aircraft. Interesting target when operating from the cul-de-sac that is T2.


Remember that Ryanair, along with a number of other low cost airlines have long sector times and it's likely that the flight may arrive early and then depart late - but making time up in the air.

Also, at that time of day MAN isn't the busiest...


RYR move to T2 kind of blows out the water the previous scheme of turning T3 into the loco terminal.


Maybe when aircraft are based they'll change. Say that 5 aircraft were put into MAN, it's unlikely they'd want to use T2 however could T3 take massive FR expansion? It always looks busy stand wise...

[The96er]

RYR move to T2 kind of blows out the water the previous scheme of turning T3 into the loco terminal.

It would seem increasingly likely that the opposite will be the eventual outcome, with the loco's operating from T1/T2 and the full fare shot haul legacy airlines operating from T3. Air France are already in T3 with talk of KLM moving over too. Would also make sense for the Lufthansa group of airlines (SN/LX/LH/BD) to be under one roof now that BD are about to undertake operations on behalf of Lufthansa and Swiss.

[Betablockeruk]

The T3 Apron Ext plans of 2006/2007 were for an additional 14 remote stands. If fully implemented this would be an ideal set-up for a lost co outfit. Right next to 24R threshold and no jetties.

Currently we have the downscaled plan of just stands 56-58.

[Skipness One Echo]

RYR fly head-to-head with MAN's most loyal based carriers.

Head says no heart says yes as loyalty counts for little when you look at what carriers and customers do against what they say alas. If MAN dosn't become a base for the good reasons set out above, it would still be beneficial I think if rotations could be operated from the Continental based fleet arriving when T2 has downtime. We've all seen the times of the day when the building stands idle, any operation that could quickly and efficiently make use of the building would be good.
However T3 makes more Ryanair sense as taxi-ing congestion is minimsed and taxi out is more straightforward. I think we should be relaxed, most on pprune know Ryanair spin when they see it. They are what they are, if and when we see real cuts from MON, TXC, LS et al then let's worry.

With my spotter head on for a mo, it's a also *lot* more new aircraft.....

[The96er]

The T3 Apron Ext plans of 2006/2007 were for an additional 14 remote stands.

Not really an advantage. Remote stands usually require more staff and are logistically more difficult than having an aircraft on stand - speaking from experience.

[The96er]

taxining time to and from t2 is around 15mins so how ryanair r going 2 get a 25min turn around is going 2 be the problem

Turn around time is the time allocated from when the aircraft arrives on stand till the time the aircraft pushes. Taxi time is not included.

[roverman]

RYR will need to learn the old EI and BA 1-11 Manchester slot-buster. Taxi for 23R, get abeam Pier A and declare to ATC ' we can take it from Golf'. Forget the figures in the FMS, throttles to the wall, airborne 3 minutes ahead. Saw a QF 747 do it once. Noice!

[SWBKCB]

Roverman - think it would have been '24' not '23R' in those days.

Also remember doing turnrounds on Laker 1-11's in the early 80's to beat the night time runway closure that made Ryanair look like jessie's....

[Bagso]

..and of course you couldn't beat a Super VC10 "on the roll" once actually on the runway !

[aidoair]

taxining time to and from t2 is around 15mins so how ryanair r going 2 get a 25min turn around is going 2 be the problem


As ''The96er'' stated, turnaround times are calculated chocks on time to chock off time.

Though from experience the only time taxiin at MAN has taken this long is during departures in the early morning summer runway queues/slots times etc. The average time it usually takes us after a roll-out on runway 23R to arriving on stand is 5-6 minutes max. Again ATC restrictions and aircraft in the way can slow it down but this can happen at any airport. If you have captain quick you could probably do it even faster!

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Ah memories.

Remember once having Cathay B744 on a tight slot for AMS. He called up abeam what was the red top, and I offered him Link Charlie for departure, which he duly accepted.

Spectacular departure taken on the roll, but was called down to the 4th floor before the end of shift. Apparently, whilst all who saw it were impressed, the poor guy driving a set of steps round Pier Alpha was less than happy. :E

Rgds

[mickyman]

Nothing beats the memory of BA vc10's airborne before the old pier
A.

MM

[PQC]

Roverman - spot on!

MO'L said a few months ago that FR needed to change their business model and start flying from some 'main' airports as well as the 'alternatives'.

Despite the impact of the recession, airports such as MAN don't handle 18-19M pax without a reason. And ask yourself - why did FR retain the DUB schedule if they were so set against MAN?

Likewise, MAG would be daft not to try to fill its quietest slots with some traffic, but not at costs that might prejudice its core business.

In addition, competition on some of the 'sun' routes might lead some based carriers like LS, ZB, EZY etc to 'sharpen' their pencils somewhat. In my view, on some routes these Lo-Cos are Lo-Cos in name only. I mean, £250+ to Rome with LS?

So yes, welcome back FR. A mutually beneficial arrangement at the present time.

But even if the rumours of based aircraft are true, I think that the business at MAN is diverse enough (which is one of the biggest strong points) to resist the siren calls of lots of FR based aircraft operating with sod-all margins for the airport.

The question is, what reaction / response will be forthcoming from LS, ZB and EZY?

We live in interesting times...

[Trash_Hauler]

Following the liquid ban in 2006, Manchester Airport invited catering companies to tender for a permanent presence on the airfield to try and address the issues that airside workers had getting food and liquid through security. Willow Catering won the contract and have been on the Tower Road for over two years. Sadly they have now decided that their presence at the airport is no longer commercially viable and they will be removing their catering van this week.

Perhaps if they were not so expensive, and were open at a time when airside staff could actually USE the service, they would still be here. Not trying to be funny, but they didn't pitch up til about 0900 and shut up shop at around 1500. I remember the old staff-caf in T1 was open very early (around 0400 as I recall), and stayed open until a reasonable hour. Point being, if you were an early shift worker, you could fill your belly before your shift, or if you were on a late, you could actually eat your tea at... TEA time!

Why would I want to go to these lot, pay over the odds for crap food and drink, when I can bring my own food in, or go to Greggs and stop at Boots and get a drink (or drinks) at high street prices?

I reckon Willow catering was looking for a reason to pull the plug. All the staff travelled in from Liverpool as well as the stock. Could not have been making any money!

[easyflyer83]

LCC's or not, on a route such as Rome where there is no direct competition on that city pair, not to mention competition to Rome from anywhere within a 100 mile radius means they can charge higher fares. Simple supply and demand. Even LCC's play by this theory.

[Jamie2k9]

Ryanair fly to Rome from Liverpool although it was suspended last October until March.

[parky747]

Good to see at long last the restoration of the MAN-MAD route, however 'RYR'http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/infopop/icons/icon13.gif, this route surely would be better suited to flybe or IB on double daily rotations for business, leisure and transit via MAD? E175 size a/c?

[globetrotter79]

Yes, I can't help feeling MAG management may have shot themselves in the foot on this one: with the BA/Iberia merger, the prospect of a MAN-MAD at 'proper' business schedules operates by Iberia or Air Nostrum under IB flight numbers (or even, perhaps, BA Cityflyer?) has got to be much closer than ever. Sure, it may take another 6-18 months for BA and Iberia to get their act in gear in this respect...but will the presence of Ryanair firmly close the door on this one?

Methinks this smacks a bit of MAG trying to bring in capacity at almost any cost (although I appreciate that, commercially, there will inevitably be a great deal more to it than that)...but for the sake of waiting a bit longer (when you're probably going to earn next to nothing from the FR operation anyway)...what would any of us really rather see: a once daily loco flight turning up at odd times or a decent nightstopper or double daily Iberia-marketed service with a raft of online connections possible?

Who is to say - it could all turn out very differently, of course, but there could be a fair amount of egg on face on the day that Iberia/BA announce 'feeder' services from EDI and/or BHX to MAD and Manchester is left out..

[Ian Brooks]

Globetrotter79

Very much doubt that would happen as it is a very different market aimed at connecting
up with LH flights and business men

Ian B

[Mr A Tis]

Iberia have dipped their toe in & out of MAN-MAD & couldn't make it work even with a CRJ. I don't think BA / IB have any interest in connecting any of the regions with MAD. They could have done that before, the tie up with BA does not make it any more likely.
A solitary RYR flight that does not arrive into MAD until 2225 would not impact in that kind of market.
I won't be using any RYR service, but good luck to those who do want this kind of operation.

[ben_keghead]

I think EZY/IB would be best suited to the MAN-MAD route

[Skipness One Echo]

the prospect of a MAN-MAD at 'proper' business schedules operates by Iberia or Air Nostrum under IB flight numbers

The market hasn't supported MAN-MAD in sufficient numbers in the past at the prices required to make this viable. Are you really turning your nose up at a new direct city to city at available a decent price on a new B737-800 in favour of a more expenisve option on a smaller aircraft? Now I know the second one is more business friendly but it hasn't panned out in the past. Any port in a storm?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

I note that the most commonly held misconception regarding the definition of "low-cost carrier" has resurfaced again on this thread (reference apparently expensive fares to Rome etc.).

The term "Low Cost" [airline] actually refers to the corporate cost base of the company. Think in terms of an investor or an accountant examining the company balance sheet. Ideally, a LCC can maintain profits in markets where margins are thin based on keeping its cost base (outgoings) to a minimum. In this case, the term "low cost" does NOT refer to what the passengers pay in terms of their fares. The "low cost" term has over time come to be misunderstood and misrepresented by the media, and for obvious reasons the airlines affected are in no hurry to set the record straight. If the punters mistakenly *assume* that Airline X is going to give them the cheapest possible deal, why would the company disabuse them of that notion?

What the customers actually experience is a "No Frills Carrier"; ie. a very basic level of service throughout their interaction with the company. The "no frills" experience is the key mechanism by which airline companies can reign in their costs and (hopefully) return a profit as a result. Note that LCC's use yield management techniques to maximize income from fares just like any other airline. When booking with one of these companies, you may indeed find a bargain deal. But conversely, you may also pay a surprisingly high fare if you book late on a popular route with limited capacity.

Please note that I am not criticizing this business model in any way; it works and has a legitimate niche in the market. However, I do think that it is beneficial for customers to realize that there is no automatic link between a 'low cost airline' and a 'low fare'. Try to dissociate the two concepts in your own mind when booking a journey. Low costs are what the airline enjoys; no frills is what the customers experience. The fare is another matter entirely!

Good bargain hunting and happy travels to all! SHED.

[Skipness One Echo]

However, I do think that it is beneficial for customers to realize that there is no automatic link between a 'low cost airline' and a 'low fare'.
Specifically with Ryanair and not easyJet though, if you look at the mean, median and mode fares, I bet there is.....

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Skipness - Ryanair may indeed offer more 'bargain' fare deals than other carriers. But there is still no *automatic* link to a low fare in a specific transaction. It is not safe for a customer to assume that a bargain tariff is assured with RYR or any other LCC. Regards. SHED.

[Skipness One Echo]

No that's true, they do have a powerfully low cost base though. I too have been on the end of a heftilly priced last minute need for an FR seat....

[MUFC_fan]

However, I do think that it is beneficial for customers to realize that there is no automatic link between a 'low cost airline' and a 'low fare'.


Air Berlin is a great preacher of this.

[Mr A Tis]

Pick almost any date for MAN-LIS and you will get a much better deal with TAP Air Portugal than the " low cost" airline BMI Baby (esp if you have bags to check in !)
Like any other transaction shop around, & like Shed says never assume a LCC is always the best option.
Having mentioned TAP, I wonder if they are going to give the route any publicity ? Seen very little info about the route apart from the MA web site.
With TAPs South American network it also weakens the case for a BA/IB Madrid service, more so than the RYR flight.(IMHO)

[Vuelo]

you clearly haven't been seen the Manchester Evening News. TP have been advertising most nights I have seen it recently, and I understand they have some space on buses in the Manchester area. TP, I have been told, are also pronoting the route to Manchester in Brazil, Angola, Cape Verde and Morocco. The connections to Sao Paulo are particularly good, so I expect it to be a winner for Brazil traffic too.

[mickyman]

globetrotter79

I think the world has moved on from your expressed ideas - you
may have a very long and fruitless wait.

MM

[brian_dromey]

I dont know if there has been any official confirmation of this, but LH flights FRA-MAN are now showing as BD operated. The flight numbers have not changed, so I assume this is still a "Lufthansa" flight, wet lease operated by bmi, as opposed to "proper" BD flights.
Showing as operated by A320.

[easyflyer83]

Easyjet are pretty "p*ssed off" with the fact that MAN has got cosy with Ryanair. It is their view that MAN should have come to existing carriers if they really needed to increase traffic off peak. MAD, as I found out today, was being considered by EZY, whether this is the case i'm not sure. Longer term destination possibilities include BIO, OPO and VCE.

SHED, I agreed with you up to a point. The low cost structure of the LCC's have directly affected the fares they charge. We now pay less than we used to because of this and is precisely why the flag/full service carriers are more competitive. Although, more often than not LCC's are the cheaper option than you seem to have us believe.

Of course, the airline industry is full of misconceptions. Many passengers would class certain full service carriers as "no frills" as they don't get a meal or a free drink and just yesterday I was asked by a pax why we had to fly a crew member MXP-ATH to operate ATH-MAN (to cover an incapacited crew member) just to serve drinks.

[Ringwayman]

MAN have cosied up to FR? That'd be news to FR who have said they are getting a worse deal now than the one that was offered to them when they decided to quit!?!

MAN isn't going to wait for U2 to announce services that other airlines can launch sooner. It's down to U2 to sort themselves out. 10 based aircraft by 2012. From Feb/March, they've got 20 months to base 4 more aircraft to meet their plan. Why not accelarate it to nip any FR expansion in the bud?

[pwalhx]

Are we really to believe that they didn't make the same offer to EZY as they did FR, I would be surprised if they didn't.

[The96er]

Easyjet are pretty "p*ssed off" with the fact that MAN has got cosy with Ryanair.

EZY have hardly set MAN alight with exciting new routes. What do they have committed for MAN for the near future - PMI and errrr that's it I believe. At least RYR are taking a punt on the MAD route (of which there has been nothing to stop EZY doing ). Would seem EZY are only interested in routes from MAN where other airlines have done the hard work to establish a customer base - MUC/HEL/GOT/HAM/CPH/ZRH...

[easyflyer83]

lol it's rich coming from the same people who were euphoric at FR's departure last time around. Sure, their deal is more reminiscent of a level playing field this time but for how long?

We all know that airports have ongoing relationships with many airlines and on a strategic level, it won't just be EZY who feel the same way.

The96er, so you suggest that an airline should have a monopoly on one route? Or how would you feel if IB launched BCN or AZ started FCO? I suspect you probably wouldn't mind then.....despite the incumbent having worked hard for their customer base. And a matter of weeks ago nobody thought poor old WW when TP launched LIS. As it is, EZY has grown the market where they compete with other airlines, the statistics prove it. That aside, what about SOF, ATH, RAK? A major based airline was always going to "step on the toes" of other carriers. Did anyone or would anyone complain if BA operate MUC, HEL, ZRH etc? Probably not.

The 10 a/c by 2012, in my opinion isn't going to happen but with 5 aircraft added in a little over 3 years, 4 of those in the last two, I don't think anyone can question the commitment of EZY to MAN. From past experience, can we say the same about FR?

[pwalhx]

easyflyer for the record I was not euphoric about FR's departure, in fact don't recall commenting ether way. I am not a big fan of FR but I can see why the deal has been done and still feel the same deal will have been on the table for others. EZY and Fr seem to co exist at other airports so why not Manchester.

[mickyman]

easyflyer83

The main difference between you and FR is the way you
engage the market.FR have always had a 'wham-bam'
publicity machine when opening new routes whereas Easy
have a more laid back approach.

We know what to expect from both of you - so lets wait
and see what happens.

MM

[The96er]

5 aircraft added in a little over 3 years, 4 of those in the last two

You could argue that only 3 a/c have been added due to the fact that the base was an existing GBAirways base with 2 a/c already online.

[easyflyer83]

The day of the takeover, Easyjet was a one aircraft base. The 2nd arrived from May 2008. Aircraft number 3 arrived May 2009, followed by number 4 in January 2010, the 5th in May 2010 and the 6th will arrive in May this year.

GB Airways
Summer 05 1 A/C
Winter05/Summer 06 2 a/c
Winter 06 1a/c
Summer07 2a/c
Winter 07 1a/c

Now, per se, whilst i'm not a fan of Ryanair I admire them to an extent and I'm not questioning the deal although it sounds like Easyjet are. Consequently, they will be meeting with MAN on Monday. My point is that many on this forum (i wasn't being so specific as to aim at individuals) were championing MAN when FR left. More importantly, I was irritated more by 96er's comments regarding EZY's expansion at MAN that includes several key city destinations already operated. I was merely making the point that when a legacy launches a route in competition, his/her's views probably differ to that demonstrated in their postings. The same goes for many here. However, whilst having LH, SK, LX etc on MAN's apron is an aviation enthusiasts wet dream (and I too want to see as many carriers in MAN as possible) as air travellers do we really want to foster monopolies on these routes? As i said before, nobody minded when BA competed on FRA, VIE and CDG with LH, NG and AF respectively.

[MUFC_fan]

I completely agree that Ryanair are here to force out competition and if all remains well they will serve the airport fantastically well. However, they are known for throwing tantrums and moving sticks very quickly.

Personally I think that the overriding factor here is that we live in a capitalist economy, one of the most competitive in the world, and it's not fair on us as customers to deprive us of that competition.

It all just depends on Ryanair's relationship with MAN over the long term...

If they want to get 5 million through the door then it's unlikely they're planning on going anywhere soon...

[Bagso]

Re RYR We have lost 5m pax in a little over 3 years !

That needs clawing back ASAP, as long as they pay commercial rates and are here for the long haul no problem !

RYR have bags of aircraft coming in and nowhere to put them. In terms of UK expansion the network ex STN is pretty much covered AND the rates there have gone thru the roof now they have to pay full landing fees etc.

2 or 3 aircraft added here and there at smaller regional airports such as Bristol, Birmingham and Newcastle isnt exactly going to make a dent on the profit and loss ! With the UK coming out of recession they need another major base where they can stick volumes !

[IB4138]

Just spoken with the wife, who arrived at T3 today.

Not at all happy with queues at "UK Border" control and lack of Border Agency staff on duty......hence the queue.

Only just made her rail connection to Blackpool, despite having what should have been an "easy" 55 minutes from disembarking to make the train.

So slow were Border Agency staff, that baggage was waiting on the carousel.

All the ballcocks about "no space to put in an IRIS machine" at T3 needs seriously re-looking at, if they don't want to staff the place properly.

[MUFC_fan]

Just spoken with the wife, who arrived at T3 today.

Not at all happy with queues at "UK Border" control and lack of Border Agency staff on duty......hence the queue.

Only just made her rail connection to Blackpool, despite having what should have been an "easy" 55 minutes from disembarking to make the train.

So slow were Border Agency staff, that baggage was waiting on the carousel.

All the ballcocks about "no space to put in an IRIS machine" at T3 needs seriously re-looking at, if they don't want to staff the place properly.


Is this not down to the Border Agency? I'm unsure as to how it works...

Thanks

[IB4138]

Yes the lack of staff is down to the Border Agency ( just 2 officers present).

However, the lack of an IRIS machine, which would ease this problem, the Border Agency will tell you is down to the airport management, who won't give them the space.

The lack of space argument has been going on for a considerable time, several years to my knowledge and needs dealing with.

As for staffing levels, that is down to the Chief Imigration Officer at the airport.

Two wrongs though, do not make a right, the passengers suffer and T3 UK Border, for whatever reason does not show the airport in a good light.

[mickyman]

IB4138

'Only just made her rail connection to Blackpool'

Sooooo No complaint there then ?

MM

[AircraftOperations]

Do you think that the Border Agency would want to install machines like Iris?
Or is this ultimately depriving staff of their jobs?

[pwalhx]

End of the day, unfortunate your wife was delayed, but the point is she did not miss her train.

[MUFC_fan]

I'm assuming Ryanair will be moving their Dublin flights to T2 also. Will there be enough gates for their early morning and late evening rotations?

I would hazard a guess that their morning service falls nicley between the outgoing early morning wave and the inbound long haul flights but what about the evening?

[Skipness One Echo]

When did Ryanair move from T2 to T1?

[CabinCrewe]

2004
http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/MANInfo/WhichTerminal?mode=browse
Ryanair Move to Terminal 1 At Manchester [Archive] - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/archive/index.php?t-34273.html)

[Jamie2k9]

BMI to start MAN - FRA on March 27. BMI will operate 3 out of the 4 daily flights to FRA.

MAN - FRA - 07:00 - 09:45 - BMI (A320)
MAN - FRA - 08:50 - 11:35 - Lufthansa (B735)
MAN - FRA - 13:10 - 15:50 - BMI (A320)
MAN - FRA - 18:30 - 21:10 - BMI (A320)

FRA - MAN - 07:30 - 08:10 - Lufthansa (B735)
FRA - MAN - 11:40 - 12:20 - BMI (A320)
FRA - MAN - 16:50 - 17:30 - BMI (A320)
FRA - MAN - 22:05 - 22:45 - BMI (A320)

[Bagso]

Ryanair Manchester superbase ?

Maybe ...maybe not, but the evidence is somewhat compelling !

This may be a leap of faith but stick with it.... I must declare I am not a great fan of RYR , but I do think there is a lot more to this story than we first imagined and I am suprised that our more distinguished armchair analysts havn't commented in more depth!

Rumours regarding new airlines have always circulated at Manchester many weeks in advance of an "actual announcement". Manchester is normally as leaky as an old tap when it comes to new schedules. Somewhat curiously this one didn't leak out, there has been the odd comment about a return but nothing tangible.

...more so than any other negotiations MAG kept these talks TOTALLY underwraps !

Out of the blue, "or so it seems" RYR announced a sprinkling of routes, at 9 weeks notice AND this less than 2 years after pulling out in acrimonious circumstances.

Some commentators have suggested they came crawling back, NOT SO, the fact that MAG "approached them" (much to the chagrin of EZY, if rumours are to be believed), suggests a major change in MAG strategy with the new CEO leading the charge !

...the BIG question is, why on earth would you risk possibly peeing off one of your best, albeit latest customers to court an airline that you fell out with and who historically are so difficult to deal with, unless what was on offer was so fantastic and unbelievebly attractive ?

What will RYR possibly offer MAN this time round ?

Maybe the answer lies in the comments in the M.E.N .. with the promise of
"5M pax a year, blah blah".

We have heard comments like this before of course, I think many of us assumed it was the usual RYR spin, ie the offer of a few services bringing in a totally disproportionate opportunity of employment ! Poor old BHX fell foul of this a few years back BUT maybe in MANs case the situation is different this time .

RYR have a massive number of new aircraft on order, Manchester has already proved itself AND crucially has the spare capacity !

Could the 5m equate to 12 or 15+ based aircraft ?

There were raised eyebrows when T2 was mentioned to house the new services, BUT it is absolutely logical....the terminal is empty for much of the day and needs filling. Likewise the second runway is barely used.

Manchester needs a radical and quick soution otherwise it would be in the doldrums for years. LS, EZY, MON might add 1 or 2 aircraft BUT they are not going to add the massive number of aircraft that Manchester needs.

RYR generates demand where none previously existed, they attract an incredible number of pax to their website, they could fill numerous gaps in the destination network, they have proved this in the past! Cities like Bremen, Dortmund, Cacassone etc would work from MAN but realistically only with RYR.

As last time Manchester is a logical choice for a "major base", being as it is at the epicentre of Northern England, less than an hour from Stoke to the South, Liverpool to the West , Leeds to the East and Preston to the North. It already attracts massive inward flows as a destination in its own right so we are not just talking about outbound pax.

It will be interesting to know how this will pan out but if it can be made to work this time there is little doubt that just maybe MAG needs RYR, and maybe RYR needs MAG ...we will see !

Anybody up for a discussion ?

[Going loco]

BUT they are not going to add the massive number of aircraft that Manchester needs.

But why does it need a massive amount of aircraft? You always fail to provide a business view of these ideas and instead seem obsessed by judging the airport in terms of passenger numbers regardless of the impact on other carriers at MAN, e.g. Jet2 and other airports in the North to whom you seem to have nothing but contempt. I get that you are proud of you roots, but you take it to a completely different level. Why?

I thought the airport is owned by local govt in Gtr Man so its job is to serve the demand generated by the people who own it - anything above that is a bonus.

[zfw]

There is a high possibilty of Monarch moving to T2 also, so T2 will be busy with FR and Mon/ZB. These moves are neccesary to bolster the retail and eateries in T2 as currently the Terminal is like a morgue after 10.30.
Although what impact it will have on the T1 facilities remains to be seen?.

zfw

[Will_McKenzie]

zfw
Monarch will be moving to T2, can't remember when they are, but there will be a bit of a shuffle with operators moving round to different terminals this year.

[Alvechurch]

Bagso

A got a feeling of deja vu when I read Ryanair's announcement.
This is indeed a repeat of the promises O'Leary made to BHX when he announced the 'superbase' there.
'There will be eventually up to 10 based aircraft, 2 million extra passengers and rising, perhaps up to 100 routes, we will build a new hangar', well, you know what happened - very little.
A ryanair expansion has to be at the expense of one or more other airlines, in Birmingham's case it seems to be Bmibaby which took the hit.
In BHX they came in, introduced up to 35 plus routes and, for a year or so, as people tried the new routes things looked fine but meantime, rivals on other established routes came under pressure.
Manchester will perhaps get that initial surge but when things settle down where will all those promised exra passengers come from?
Leeds and Liverpool perhaps?
Interesting times.

[Vuelo]

Will BD be using T3 or T1 for their new BSL and FRA routes? And what's behind the move to using BD metal on these routes? Could MUC be next?

[Jamie2k9]

Frankfurt will operate from T1 and Basel will operate from T3.

[The96er]

Frankfurt will operate from T1 and Basel will operate from T3

But aren't Swiss continuing to operate the weekend BSL filght with their own metal. Will that flight too move to T3 ??

[brian_dromey]

They are indeed, that flight will remain in t1, with all other SWISS flights.

I would not be surprised to see BD flights move (back) to T1 again. With the DC lounge bing accessed from T1, as before. I assume this would still be possible, after the reconfiguration of T1 over the past 2 years? Moving WW and BD to T1 would probably give easyJet a bit more scope for growth.

[Vuelo]

you wouldn't be able to access the BMI lounge at T3 from T1 as that lounge is located in a domestic arrivals and departures zone, so any passengers who had cleared security at T1 could not then move over to the zone where the BD lounge is. Also, direct airside transfers (those passengers who are in transit and have not 'entered' the UK, would not be able to use that lounge as it is essentially in the UK and outside the immigration restricted zone.

[Ian Brooks]

Brian
From what I have heard it is Easyjet that is going to move to T1 in autumn

Ian B

[The96er]

Also, direct airside transfers (those passengers who are in transit and have not 'entered' the UK, would not be able to use that lounge as it is essentially in the UK and outside the immigration restricted zone

Not entirely true, transfers are allowed, although the current procedure is for the passanger to be escorted by a security agent and then handed over to the handling agent at the gate before departure of the connecting flight in T3. This is an issue that was highlighted by the DfT and was reported in the national press a few months ago.

[Jamie2k9]

They are indeed, that flight will remain in t1, with all other SWISS flights.



THe Swiss website says:

BMI flights arriving/departing from T3 (weekdays)
SWISS flights arriving/departing from T1 (weekends)

It would be better if Swiss and Lufthansa moved to T3 and kept all operations together.

[pwalhx]

There is a limit to what will fit in T3 and LX and LH certainly wouldnt I am sure