MANCHESTER - 8

[PPRuNeUser0176]

A320 dosn't mean that it will happon. They have being granted approval for a number of routes.

[Manchester Kurt]

http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/Content/TrafficStatisticsArchive

Up 2.83% in Oct 2011.

[MKY661]

A320 dosn't mean that it will happon. They have being granted approval for a number of routes.

It would be nice to see some Aeroflot at MAN. Lets hope they start it.

[delta154]

Aeroflot Russian Airlines have applied and recived government approval to operate MAN - Moscow. Up to 7 weekly flights

Even though they got rights for 7 flights, Id expect them to come in at 2-3 weekly to start with. The 7 weekly is just something they can expand into if the route performs well.

Lets just hope they use the rights now, seems to be a trend at MAN where carriers are granted rights (examples being China Airlines and Royal Brunei), but for one reason or another, never use them (and likely never to use them)

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

It is interesting to note that Aeroflot needed to reapply for rights. I'm old enough to remember SU249/SU250. Did some great flights on those old TU154's!

[One Sixty until 4.]

If I recall correctly, wasn't the AFL operation operation geared up to capture the ex-pat Pakistani community market from across the North and Midlands? But as PIA ramped up direct flights from MAN, AFL dropped out.

The market seems even tighter today, with PIA and Air Blue serving various Pakistan airports along with EK, EY and QR all taking a share of the loads from MAN and other Northern/regional airports.

I would love to see AFL back, but wonder how the figures stack up to justify the route now. We struggle to have mainline services to many more obvious European destinations, so a route to Russia seems very left field.

P.S. The IL62s were much better!:ok:

[Ian Brooks]

Yes IL-62 were great if very noisey
The market to Russia has changed quite a bit since the old Aeroflot days as
have Aeroflot


Ian B

[Mr A Tis]

...and when CX applied for HKG-MOSCOW-MAN a couple of years back, wasn't it BMI that objected because they hold MOSCOW-MAN rights?
ie plenty of airlines get/own rights, but never intend to operate them

[LN-KGL]

Mr A Tis, it's not that much the city pair rights that limit what can be offered - the number over flying rights over Russian territory is the real bottle neck.

[delta154]

I would love to see AFL back, but wonder how the figures stack up to justify the route now.

Maybe Aeroflot could do what Finnair advertise, and be 'the quick way to Asia'.
Also, whilst admittedly it wouldn't be a huge market, Aeroflot opens up quicker flights to places like Chisnau, Ashgabat and the Russian market in General.

We struggle to have mainline services to many more obvious European destinations, so a route to Russia seems very left field

Frankly, I think the MAN network has improved a lot of late. Going to be a bit of a long winded post to show it, but, major city wise and mainline carriers, we have:

Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen and Bergen on SAS
Madrid on Iberia
Lisbon on TAP
Frankfurt, Düsseldorf, Munich, Hamburg and Stuttgart on Lufthansa
Zurich, Geneva and Basle on Swiss
Gothenburg on City Airline
Billund and London on BA (high yield so I count it)
Helsinki on Finnair
Paris and Antwerp on Air France
Lyon on bmi
Ljubniana on Adria
Amsterdam on KLM
Brussels on SN
Munich on Singapore Airlines
Istanbul on Turkish

And without being snobby and realising Low cost carriers are a viable alternative, we have:

Athens, Amsterdam, Bilbao Munich, Zurich, Geneva, Copenhagen, Berlin, Madrid on Easyjet
Milan, Hannover, Paris on Flybe
Milan, Paris, Rome, Talinn on Ryanair
Istanbul, Budapest, Paris, Prague, Nice, Pisa, Rome, Tel Aviv, Barcelona on Jet2
Cologne on Germanwings
Olso on Norwegian
Barcelona, Milan, Venice, Verona on Monarch

So, aside from maybe Vienna, Bucharest and Warsaw, where exactly does MAN lack so much?

[One Sixty until 4.]

I know we have a number of services now to some of the destinations you quote, but some of those services are only very recent (Lisbon with TAP, Madrid with Iberia/easyJet/Ryanair). Time will tell if they are to remain.

I was also thinking of Warsaw and Vienna, but also Prague, Berlin, Rome and Milan. I accept that there are lo-cos operating to these destinations, but I was referring to MAN losing mainline operators where they start but find the loads just aren't there for their cost base to sustain.

Perhaps we can agree that whoever operates a service to wherever is a good thing? ANA 787s to Narita in 2013 anyone? ;)

[delta154]

I was also thinking of Warsaw and Vienna, but also Prague, Berlin, Rome and Milan. I accept that there are lo-cos operating to these destinations, but I was referring to MAN losing mainline operators where they start but find the loads just aren't there for their cost base to sustain

Well, the way the markets and services are changing, loco's to Europe are becoming as good a choice to Europe as the mainline carriers. I know the lack of carriage of free bags is an obvious side affect of loco travel, but, in terms of meal service, Im pretty sure people could become accustom to not having a hot meal on a 3 hour flight.

Also, the problem MAN had was the emergance of loco's at nearby airports. What was the point of say, LOT trying a service that costs £250 each way when you can take a train for about £20 to Liverpool and get cheap flights to more points in Poland? It just wasn't going to happen.

Slowly, the carriers are coming back as they are adjusting their service and going after different markets. Case example being IB on MAN-MAD
Yes, we have 3 carriers on Madrid once again. However, Iberia is more concerned with MAN-MAD-XXX than purely MAN-MAD, and easyjet probably takes the higher end leisure/business travellers, whilst Ryanair takes the lower yielding leisure passengers. Can MAN sustain 17 weekly flights, Probably. However, with all 3 flights leaving within pretty much the same time frame, timings will likely change.

TAP, im sure will be fine, in fact, the MAN online timetable has them going to a daily operation from 29th May, so, they must be doing ok.

[Ian Brooks]

I think you will find that TAP are going up from 5/6 a week to daily next summer
Madrid seems to be doing OK in its 1st week 50% plus loads I am told
FR are well chuffed with their new routes so far

Ian B

[Hamburg 2K8]

Now that 23R/05L is back on CAT3 ops is the work all complete? I'm looking forward to seeing it, can't remember the last time I saw it fully tarmaced rather than all grey with just black tyre marks in the centre.

On another note - as KLM are moving to T3 from 12th dec, are there any plans for LX & LH to follow suit?

[brian_dromey]

I don't imagine LH/LX will be moving, now that BD will be shortly leaving the LH Group. Indeed, I would assume we will see SN moving to T1 at some point.

[LN-KGL]

delta154:
And without being snobby and realising Low cost carriers are a viable alternative, we have:

Olso on Norwegian

Norwegian is a different breed than the main stream LOCO carriers since it is possible to get transit tickets and it is therefore possible to get ticket from MAN to 85 of 105 destinations Norwegian fly to with one or two stops in addition to the direct destination OSL. On transit routes Norwegian brings both you and your baggage through to your final destination. The only exception from this rule is if you are traveling to a Norwegian destination. Then you have to clear the baggage through customs yourself and check in again the baggage for the Norwegian domestic leg. The consolation is that if you are flying with a mainline carrier like SAS you have to do the same.

[delta154]

Norwegian is a different breed than the main stream LOCO carriers since it is possible to get transit tickets and it is therefore possible to get ticket from MAN to 85 of 105 destinations Norwegian fly

Yes this is one thing I like about Norwegian. I had to research LGW-Oulu for someone and Norwegian was the main option (pretty sure it was via OSL but memory fails me).

If only easyjet or Ryanir, with such an extensive covering of Europe from various bases could do this.

[LN-KGL]

I had to research LGW-Oulu for someone and Norwegian was the main option (pretty sure it was via OSL but memory fails me).


I am pretty sure it was via their latest base at Helsinki (with a short night stop at HEL to Oulu)

[zfw]

Nope LH/BD staying where they are, however there maybe other moves early next year..............;)

zfw

[The96er]

Nope LH/BD staying where they are, however there maybe other moves early next year..............

Ryanair perhaps ??

[MKY661]

Doubt it. I think they like T2

[Ringwayman]

They'd prefer anywhere else. 25 minute turnround which include the long taxiing times from runway to gate? They'll be luck to be on stand for 15/20 minutes and to deplane and enplane the best part of 300 passengers at a time is pushing it.

[750XL]

Strong rumours of Ryanair moving to T3 in the future. Not only does it offer better taxi times, T3 is a lot better set up for lo-co's

[Skipness One Echo]

25 minute turnround which include the long taxiing times from runway to gate?

The 25 minute turnaround time is block to block. The same applies to Gatwick which is comparably busier.

[Mr A Tis]

..and wasn't the RYR "deal" that they move to T2 to take up the afternoon/evening slack over there?
Given that Baby have gone from T3 & EZY about to, surely the trend is the other way.
Maybe Delta will join Air France / KLM making T3 Skyteam & One world. T1 being star alliance.?

[FR-]

Anyone able to comment on what the loads are like on Ryanair flights so far?

fr-

[Espada III]

Which terminal will EZY be in by 15 December? Flying that day and don't want to get caught out.

[jubilee]

Fr loads on the new routes are by and large good. Figures on another forum.

EZY moving to T1. from end of this month.
J.

[Espada III]

Thank you!

[Ian Brooks]

Most FR flights in excess of 120 pax so I would say doing very well


Ian B

[Captivep]

I was in the BA lounge at Manchester this morning and noticed that one of the circular areas on the apron is now white with the letters MCR painted on in black.

I know that MCR is a common abbreviation for Manchester but am rather surprised they didn't use either the ICAO or IATA code. What on earth is it for?

[mickyman]

Is it something to do with the 'I love Manchester' drive after some
foreign footballers questioned the likeability of the city?

MM

[AircraftOperations]

I thought the campaign started after Manchester's idiots started copying other idiots with the riots.
Can't see the airport not using "MAN" if it was for a non-advertising reason.

[Bagso]

The campaign started to attract shoppers and tourists back to Manchester after the riots.

Nothing to do with Mr Tavez who actually only said this as part of a campaign to earn more money elsewhere !

As the second largest block of retail space in UK after London it is also aimed at the massive numbers of foreign tourists now coming in as well as UK visitors to the City.

[True Blue]

Passed through Man T3 this morning for the 8.10 Ezy to Bfs. Longest security queue I have ever seen, took us about 35 minutes to get through. Once you got to the security check, I have to say I thought the system was great. No time to spend money in the shops though, which will not please the airport management.

TB

[pottwiddler]

True Blue

Security was probably stepped due to today's news with the Border Agency.

PT

[MKY661]

Passed through Man T3 this morning for the 8.10 Ezy to Bfs. Longest security queue I have ever seen, took us about 35 minutes to get through. Once you got to the security check, I have to say I thought the system was great. No time to spend money in the shops though, which will not please the airport management.

It was the same in T1 a couple of weeks ago when i flew out. Security queue was out the door. Not only that rwy 23L was closed (dunno why, maintenance apparently although nothing was being done on it) so we were stuck in a plane queue for 35 mins.

[True Blue]

I do not think it was anything to do with Border Agency, more like lack of lanes in operation. We also waited a long time to take off.

TB

[Jamie2k9]

Most FR flights in excess of 120 pax so I would say doing very well


Ian B


Number of passengers is a factor but its also about yeild and at the price some of the routes were going for FR are making nothing but a loss on some of the routes.

[GrahamK]

Second daily MAN-EWR next summer being replaced by MAN-IAD, still using CO100/101 fligth numbers and 757 a/c.

[Skipness One Echo]

CO100/101
UA100 / 101, old habits die hard. Changeover CO->UA is due on the 11th I think? Or is that just the callsign? I was wondering if the same will happen on the second EWR-DUB as well...

[GrahamK]

Yup, same happening with the 2nd DUB flight. Now, will it happen with the second EDI flight?

[Landing Lamp]

MEN reporting United Airlines are starting a daily Washington service from May 2012. Not sure what their current loads are out of MAN but what aircraft types can we look forward to seeing?

United Airlines announce daily flight to Washington DC from Manchester | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/business/s/1464346_united-airlines-announce-daily-flight-to-washington-dc-from-manchester)

[JSCL]

As Graham posted above, replacing current second MAN-EWR and will be a 757.

[Mr A Tis]

With the loss of one of the CO/UA B757-200s on the Newark run, maybe there is a chance of an upgrade of the remaining flight back to B767 ? - would add cargo capacity too, as the 757 ain't too clever for cargo.

Good to see IAD return though.

[lasernigel]

Came back the other week from SJC via ORD to MAN. American airlines must realise tht the 757 is too small for the route. They asked for 5 volunteers to be bumped and left it late. Consquence was that everyone boarded, the doors were closed airbridge taken away, THEN they searched for the bumped passengers baggage. 70 mins stuck on the ground!
You can fly to the Middle East in comfort on 330's, 777's and 380's. All flights are shorter than ORD-MAN. You get individual video screens and entertainment etc etc. Why do US carriers lag behind the rest of the world when it comes to comfort?
I have said before on here, I have worked for Californian companies for nearly 25yrs and still no carrier will commit themselves to a MAN-SFO or LAX route. Do a survey of passengers flying AA or Delta or even CO and see how many are connecting for West coast flights.:ugh::ugh:

[Skipness One Echo]

I have said before on here, I have worked for Californian companies for nearly 25yrs and still no carrier will commit themselves to a MAN-SFO or LAX route.
Reason being is that it's hard to make money on as there's so many travellling via LHR / JFK / EWR / PHL / ATL on one stops on decent fares that not enough are willing to pay the premium for the direct. It's a difficult balance making a profit on UK-Wst Coast, even AA and UA have a token presence into LHR. The fares bear no relation to the extra distance.....

AA LAX-LHR x 1
UA LAX-LHR x 1
UA SFO-LHR x 1

er...that's it!

I know I haven't mentioned BA but they did try it before on MAN-LAX on the B763 but it didn't last. ( BA277 / 276 5? x weekly )
They have 3 LHR-LAX and 2 LHR-SFO per day but fed through BA short haul.

[lasernigel]

know I haven't mentioned BA but they did try it before on MAN-LAX on the B763 but it didn't last. They have 3 LHR-LAX and 2 LHR-SFO per day but fed through BA short haul.

But realistically as I've done it before who wants to hang around in Heathrow for 3-5 hrs. Plus the fact if there are delays it's the shuttles that get held back!

[easyflyer83]

I'm sure West coast USA is firmly on MAN's radar but ultimately I don't see it as being any different to other destinations missing from MAN's network. Destinations which we reach by connecting through various hubs with little complaint be that LHR, AMS, DXB etc.

The LHR moans and groans are woefully boring. Sure it's not the best airport in the world, far from it, but it's not that bad..... especially if you are through T5.

The shuttles suffer from no more delays than your average European sector unless there is major disruption (once a year on average-lets be fair) when domestics are usually canx first. A policy incidentally I agree with from an operational point of view.

It would be great to see west coast USA and, in time, I think it will happen. I'm a big MAN fan and always will be but exaggerating LHR's problems to prove a point doesn't wash.

[j636]

Is the service year round or only running at the times the second Newark flights went at.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

easyflyer83 -

I know we have had this exchange before, but you raise the point again so I will answer it again. The problem at LHR has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of T5. LHR is restricted by its over-subscribed pair of runways and MAN is first in line for the chop whenever ANYTHING goes wrong. Once a year? Dream on! So, you agree with BA's policy - fine. I agree with every Mancunian traveller who tells BA to "do one" for as long as they treat us as inferior to EVERYONE else on their network. But I note that they don't charge us less for that honour.

[easyflyer83]

And that is each individuals own choice and I respect them for that. When it happens week in, week out then I'll agree with you but bare in mind that relatively few canx on MAN-LHR will be down to the "MAN gets chopped first". The majority will be your usual tech issues etc.

Also, you will notice that I said that it's a policy I agree with from an operational point of view. I don't expect your BA passenger to be happy about it, far from it. However, getting down to LHR by other means is much easier than from say NCE or MXP. When it's snow for example, the severity is normally localised making the trip South relatively easier. Once in LHR I would expect full assistance and flexibility from BA to get me where I was going from then on. Facilitating the movement of passengers under extreme circumstances (and the widespread shuttle cancellations tend to only happen in such scenarios) means that MAN is the obvious candidate to chop. If I was whoevers decision it was I'd make the same call. Similar difficult decisions are made by airlines world wide including EK, QR and EY.

I'm not 'sticking up for BA' regardless but your opinions do seem to be tinged with a stick two fingers up at BA for not operating at MAN sentiment. Of course that is an entirely different debate.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

easyflyer83 -

It is interesting to note that you "expect full assistance" from BA in the event of MAN Shuttle cancellations. I hate to break this to you, but in practice you are left entirely on your own. "Go back home, sir," they say. "I'd like to. I've paid you to fly me there," I reply. You might as well book with a no-frills carrier. My opinions are not tinged with resentment at BA for not operating a MAN network. If you check my posting history, you will find numerous postings in which I defend BA's right to operate according to whatever business plan they choose. They are a for-profit PLC. No, my opinions are tinged with a "you'll never get another chance to strand me again whilst prioritising everybody else's journey" sentiment. Now, is that clear enough? Your assumption is misplaced.

[easyflyer83]

I meant full assistance in LHR after making my own way down there. And if you are a regular flyer and experienced delays and canx with other airlines do you really believe that your flight wasn't, at some point, subject to some sort of trade off or prioritised exercise? Indeed, you might well have been on a flight that operated at the expense of another. Like I say it's a operational decision process that isn't unique to BA however inconvenient it maybe to pax.

Certainly I have seen this kind of thing at the two airlines I have worked for.

[ETOPS]

We are quite good at re-routing delayed passengers these days. There is often an ACARS message (recieved before landing) from Flight Connections detailing any passengers with tight connections and how we propose to handle them. Either met by passenger services and expedited to the next flight or rebooked. We are in a better position to do this as most trunk routes have muliple departures per day. I can get the cabin crew to re-seat some pax in order to have them get off first.

The same holds true for domestic passengers arriving off-schedule at T5 with onward travel.

If the whole airport is closed the system stalls but that isn't the airlines fault and all will struggle........

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

easyflyer83 -

Your reply is unconvincing. So BA will look after pax AFTER they make their OWN way to LHR??? How useful. Might as well book the train in the first place if you don't actually want to travel by air! And being politely transferred to the next day's flight to Miami? So useful when the ship has already sailed. If they cancelled every second shuttle and spread the pain around the short-haul network, such customers would stand a chance. No, this policy has directly affected me twice, and on two other occasions I have had close friends caught out by it returning to Australia after visits. I warn them all to avoid BA like the plague now, and Emirates (avoiding LHR) have served them well so far.

I'm sure the MAN-LHR flights are put through "some sort of trade off or prioritised exercise" just as you say. Trouble is, they always lose! As a customer, that tells me everything I need to know, thankyou.

For as long as BA consider getting MAN passengers to final destination as a nice optional extra on days when everything else is going smoothly, I will avoid them absolutely. We in this region are not paying 'standby' fares to fly BA, you know. We are paying the full whack, so we deserve the same priority as everyone else on the network. If you can't provide the service, don't take the bookings. Fortunately, MAN today offers easy connections around the globe with a good selection of alternative carriers. They haven't let me down; I recommend them and use them myself.

However nicely appointed LHR T5 might be, exiting it landside and making my own way to a very expensive 'on the day' train from Euston doesn't fit in with my preferred itinerary. And by the way, on the one occasion I have used T5 it had all its escalators switched off. Reminded me of somewhere closer to home! And, having ordered a main course at one of its eateries, I was told that I could not have a dessert because the kitchen staff were going home. Maybe they could have mentioned that at the outset before they all ******ed off and the customers could have ordered a few minutes in advance. At least I saved on the tip, and the dessert from that M&S outlet downstairs was half the price and very agreeable anyway. Nope. Nice building, same old arrogant non customer-focused London service. Other hubs for me, thankyou! And I've seen nothing to persuade me to re-recommend LHR to friends visiting MAN either.

[ETOPS]

Well I'll say this for Shed-on-a-Pole when the sound of the Bee buzzing in his bonnet fades away - you still hear the sound of an axe grinding ;)

[Seljuk22]

LH will launch BER-MAN daily A319 from 3rd June.

[North West]

Perhaps some actual data on the percentage of flights cancelled between LHR and MAN would help the debate. How many people miss connections, what is the average delay, how does that compare to other connecting options? Annecdotal evidence or personal preference don't add any real value and are best left to the passenger and SLF forum

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

You are absolutely correct, ETOPS. I do indeed have an axe to grind against poor customer service. I am very loyal to companies which serve me well, and those which do not must demonstrate tangible and convincing improvement if they wish to win back my business. I make no apologies for demanding 100% effort from companies which receive payment with my hard-earned cash. A one-off honest mistake (accompanied by an apology) I can / will tolerate. But an established company policy to treat my business as the default choice for disruption and cancellation ... thanks, but no thanks. If you consider poor service acceptable, that is your choice absolutely.

North West - A raw statistic showing the absolute number of flights cancelled would be of limited use. The problem is the tactic of cancelling all shuttles for a whole day, or a whole morning, at the first hint of a problem at LHR. This removes any hope of making connections. As for using the SLF forum, I take your point. But the issue was raised (again) on this thread, so I must answer it on here. Regards.

[Mr A Tis]

..and it's not as if flying MAN-LHR-XX is cheap either, very often these fares are higher than flying CDG-LHR-XX or AMS-LHR-XX on the very same onward connections. However, on a disrupted day the CDG /AMS legs stand a good chance of being operated whilst the MAN legs have no chance.
To suggest ambling down to Piccadilly station, buying a walk up fare & then crossing London to LHR to try & re-book on a 12 hour flight, is quiet frankly ludicrous.
I'm with Shed on this one. All my hub connecting is done via ATL, FRA, MUC or ZRH & it works just fine for me.
However, if you like hubbing at LHR it's great for you to have that choice. Good luck.
My Chinese friend was convinced to go via T5 last year & the service / connection could not have been better for him, unfortunately, the same could not be said for his luggage.

[Skipness One Echo]

AMS has five runways, CDG has four, FRA has four, ZRH has three.
MAN has the same number of runways as LHR.

So when things grind to a halt, there's no leeway and nowhere to take up the slack. Having said that, there's been a lot more landings on the departure runway of late and the allowing of mixed mode during disruption is a step in the right direction.

[Suzeman]

Message 2743 from j636 posted the following link to a MEN on line article about Ryanair - see here

Michael O'Leary announces Ryanair expansion plans at Manchester Airport | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/business/s/1463945_michael-oleary-announces-ryanair-expansion-plans-at-manchester-airport)

In the good old paper copy (Business, p50 04/11/2011), the article is much much longer and contains a few interesting other snippets as follows


MOL says Manchester is central to the airline's growth strategy, adding that it will increase it's presence there "as fast as the airport wants us to". Interestingly he then says "but they (MAN) won't want us to explode and trash what some of their other carriers are doing and that makes sense".
Don't think I have ever heard him say that in public before?

Then he says that future growth at MAN would continue to be around Summer Sun destinations, particularly in France Spain and Italy.
So he will have to pick his destinations carefully if he isn't going to trash other carriers' markets

On the spat two years ago, he said " I think there is a much better understanding now between FR and the Airport. There is a new management team here (at MAN) and the relationship is much more sensible. We recognise that FR needs a presence here and Manchester recognises they need FR here.
More concilliatory remarks similar to those made when the expansion was announced after some of the older airport team had disappeared

Initial bookings from MAN were very strong

Another interesting comment was that MAN and LBA were two bases showing "rapid growth" and he predicted that would continue. He added " One airport that clearly won't show more growth but won't decline is Liverpool". In the video in the attached link he specifically says people from Manchester won't have to travel to LPL and LBA now to access his cheap fares.

If the UK Government scrap APD, the airline would consider bringing its extra planes to Manchester earlier than planned


It will be interesting to see how much of this expansion comes to pass bearing in mind his previous track record of promising expansion on hub openings which in the event never happens. However he does seem to have adopted quite a laid back attitude in this interview in contrast to his usual aggressive one.

Suzeman

[j636]

Ryanair have dropped MAN - ALC from daily next summer to 4 weekly.

[easyJet Jack]

Hey

I seem to remember it being said that Monarch, on their move to T2 would be mainly on remote stands and not using the jetways. Is this rumour/speculation true? Obviously we will find out on Tuesday!

Also, easyJet, am I right, will have near exclusive use of Pier B in T1? Meaning Jet2 will most likely take Monarch's homeland of Pier C?

MAN won't seem the same after this move, it will be weird and sad looking over to T2 and seeing spotty M, also seeing the orange army on T1 will be uncanny!

eJJ

[easyflyer83]

Easyjet will use various stands overnight and first wave with arrivals and departures during the day being on Pier B.

[delta154]

SU have gained the slots they wanted at MAN.

Daily MAN-SVO-MAN on A320 from June 2012.

[Tulsablue]

Just managed to attend (for about 20mins) the memorial gardens for the last post and flag at half mast. A very moving tribute and quite well attended. Even the aircraft taking off seemed a little quieter.
Thank you to the Chaplains for taking the time to help us remember:D

[MKY661]

I seem to remember it being said that Monarch, on their move to T2 would be mainly on remote stands and not using the jetways. Is this rumour/speculation true? Obviously we will find out on Tuesday!

Also, easyJet, am I right, will have near exclusive use of Pier B in T1? Meaning Jet2 will most likely take Monarch's homeland of Pier C?

MAN won't seem the same after this move, it will be weird and sad looking over to T2 and seeing spotty M, also seeing the orange army on T1 will be uncanny!Apparently they are going to use remote stands in the morning and a mix in the afternoon. Im not sure about the Jet2 thing either because Don't Thomas Cook also use a mix of B and C? I think what will happen is that Both EasyJet and Jet2 will use Pier B and Thomas Cook will use Pier C, but i think pier C will be dead once Monarch move out. I think that Pier C is better to be honest. More space in there and easier to take pictures of planes. I also cant imagine a load of Jet2 at Pier C (except for Gate 21 which i think is only used by Jet2, never seen anything else there.)

If anyone is at MAN on tuesday any chance they could bring some pictures of ZB at T2?

[easyflyer83]

Easyjet will use a mixture of B pier and near side C pier for overnight/first wave and generally B pier for 2nd/3rd wave.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

In an interview with the 'Manchester Evening News' published on 11-11-11, the CEO of E T I H A D, James Hogan, states that Manchester Airport is considered an "anchor site" by the airline. Basically, this means that MAN is selected for development as a key point on the airline's network. It is hoped that a third daily MAN-AUH flight will be established within five years, and the airline hopes to reach 4 x daily on the route over the longer term. Of course, we may see an increase in equipment size before additional frequencies are introduced.

Alot of speculation in the interview, but nothing wrong with positive ambition. The article also refers to the new Manchester call centre opening next year with 160 employees, and to the partnership with MCFC.

[roverman]

Yes, Etihad call centre will be on the airport site as part of the planned Airport City, although in an existing building.

Reports on another forum about Royal Air Maroc launching 3 per week Casablanca next summer. Don't know how reliable that rumour is. They have been here on charters before but not scheduled, by my recollection. If this does come about, along with Aeroflot, Lufthansa to Berlin, and surely the return of Libyan Airlines, flag-carriers are hardly flagging at MAN. More like flocking!

P.S. The anagram of the Abu Dhabi flag carrier is not mine, but a quirk of this website!

[GlennTheBaker]

Etihad - just testing :eek:

[Mr A Tis]

Does anyone know of any flights (charter or sked) from MAN to Jerez or Seville? I can't seem to find any. Jerez used to be a Monarch destination at one time.
(I know Seville shows up on RYR from LPL - but does not appear to be bookable)

[MKY661]

I know there is none to Jerez because Monarch were the only ones who did it and stopped it because of low pax (or it might of been GIB restart). There is no Seville either although RYR does it from LPL. I have a feeling though RYR will start MAN - SVQ

[MKY661]

Monarch officailly moved! Found this cool video showing their new check-in area. Looking nice:

Manchester Airport T2 - YouTube

[Aksai Oiler]

I live very close to Jerez and the only direct flight to the UK is the Ryanair to STN

[JackRalston]

UAE18 just declared emergency, descending into DXB as we speak. Wonder what the problem is.

Flightradar24.com - Live Flight Tracker! (http://www.flightradar24.com/2011-11-16/19:39/UAE18)

Edit: Seems to be descending a lot quicker then the rest of the inbounds, possible pressurisation issue?

[Mr A Tis]

Looks like the summer schedule for TAP will be operated by Portugalia (welcome back) FK100. Not sure if its every flight- but the dates Ive looked at are FK100s.

edit : Looks like it is just Mondays on the FK100-other days still showing TAP A319

[delta154]

Looks like the summer schedule for TAP will be operated by Portugalia (welcome back) FK100. Not sure if its every flight- but the dates Ive looked at are FK100s

Checked a few random dates in August and was showing 6 weekly A319. May get changed as it is due to go to a daily flight from May.

In other news, the 4 month MAN-JFK on Delta has now been cancelled. Its not bookable at all for June, July, August or September.

[aiuk]

Anyone going to at MAN on the 16th Dec to capture the Monarch A330 arriving from LGW? As it will have 100 enthusiasts (including me) aboard, I think any published photos would be very well received! It's due to arrive at 14:25 so the afternoon light should be perfect!

[Suzeman]

Some while ago somebody raised the issue of works on Ringway Rd west for Metrolink and noted completion was slated for 2016

I've found some plans of what is proposed here

e-Document - 097675-dph-0001.pdf (http://www.publicaccess.manchester.gov.uk/associateddocs/selecteddoc.aspx?097675-dph-0001.pdf)

e-Document - 097675-dpp-0007.pdf (http://www.publicaccess.manchester.gov.uk/associateddocs/selecteddoc.aspx?097675-dpp-0007.pdf)

and some words from one of the planning documents

The proposed Metrolink route runs north-south adjacent to Shadowmoss Road then turns through 90 degrees to head west parallel with Ringway Road. It runs in a cutting at this turning to achieve the minimum clearance required for the Take off Climb Surface (TOCS) for Manchester Airport.

The Metrolink then climbs up to ground level after the TOCS zone and continues westwards at existing ground level in the space between Ringway Road and Aviator Way. It then dives down immediately west of Woodhouse Lane to pass under the revised alignment for Ringway Road before terminating at a new stop adjacent to the existing heavy railway station at Manchester Airport.

The highway works involve:
· Extending the existing dual carriageway from Aviator Way Roundabout to
Shadowmoss Road.
· Removing the Aviator Way Roundabout and providing a new access to Aviator Way, off the new dual carriageway.
· Altering the vertical profile of the new dual carriageway to accommodate the
new underpass for the Metrolink.


So the tram is now going under Ringway Road and into the station - I believe originally that it was going to be a crossing on the level which would have caused a bit of excitement at peak times :eek:

Ringway Road is to become a dual carriageway from Shadow Moss Rd and the Aviator Way junction will move further west and change from a roundabout to a lights controlled junction.

At Shadowmoss Rd the junction will move east to allow the tram to swing round the corner. Interestingly the tram is going in a cutting to miss the TOCS, but the new Shadow Moss Road will be in it. I assume frangible lamp posts etc here don't count in this situation?

So looks like a lot of work to be done - happy days for those of you using this road until 2016 :ooh:

Suzeman

[lasernigel]

News that the EU is looking to ban full body scanners at airports because of radiation fears. As MAN is now the only airport using them, and has been given another years use before they have to shut them down.
Does this mean I can refuse on Monday???? Can't see that happening!

Oh btw on the subject of TAP anyone know what gate it usually goes from??

[AircraftOperations]

Thats not how I understand the news about bodyscanners at all.

I read that one type of scanner has been given the ok by the EU from next month and the other type is still being tested.

Not sure whether DFT rules about refusal = no flight still apply now, next month or at all??????

[MKY661]

Oh btw on the subject of TAP anyone know what gate it usually goes from??

Im sot sure as i have never seen a TAP at MAN yet,but if it is a Fokker then i would imagine it would use Pier B, rarely see those type of aircraft at Pier C

[JSCL]

MKY661 - TAP fly an A319 in to MAN at present :)

It'll be changing to the Fokker based on that news article of it being passed to another airline to operate (can't quite remember the details).

[MKY661]

Sorry meant A319.

Also do Monarch now use airbridges or remote stands at T2? Still havent seen any pics of them at T2 yet.

[roverman]

Monarch are using the pier stands with airbridges, but inevitably there will be some remotes at peak times. T2 apron was reconfigured last year and suits the MON fleet really well. Two of the multiple-choice ('MARS') stand blocks can take an A300-600 with an A320/321 beside it - that's what, 581 seats on one block!

A quick play on the Delta website does sadly look like the JFK will not return next year. If so it will be the second time DL has run this route and stopped it after not a long time. I think JFK is still not so popular for connecting onward within the USA. That, or AA have convinced them that 'this town ain't big enough for the both of us'. And with United switching one of their MAN-EWR flights to IAD next year, we're down to two Big Apples a day, from four.

As I have said on other UK regional airport threads - forget ambitions to get a NYC route. If MAN can't hold on to them smaller regionals don't have an earthly.

[doublesix]

The times I've seen the TAP on stand at Man (several) its been on 'C' Pier stand 23 or 25 ish.

[Skipness One Echo]

Which stands are "MARS" stands?

[lasernigel]

The times I've seen the TAP on stand at Man (several) its been on 'C' Pier stand 23 or 25 ish.

Thanks, it's a A319 tomorrow TG. About time those FK100's were retired really cramped and getting old now.

[Ian Brooks]

I think when the new summer schedule comes in there is 1 F100 a week on the
extra flight that is being added as loads too high for F100 in general


Ian B

[JackRalston]

Quick browse on flightradar24 and listening to CCFIN on my scanner, seems we have quite a few LHR diversions, JAI122 and KQA104 to name a few. Metar at LHR looks awful

[roverman]

Skipness,

Most of the T2 pier stands are arranged in MARS blocks, each served by two gates (and airbridges). The stand numbering is slightly unconventional in that there is not a centre, left, and right, as there is at Stand 12 (T1) and Stand 44 (T3). At T2 each even numbered centreline can take a B747/A330/B777 which then occupies the whole block, and the adjacent odd-numbered gate is unused. Alternatively it is divided so that two narrow bodies use the even Left and the adjacent odd number, with both gates in use. There are one or two irregularities such as I mentioned in the previous post - on two of the blocks only you can fit a B767/A300 on the even Left with a narrow body on the adjacent odd. There are also a couple of single centreline, non-MARS stands: 201 and 215. Each stand block is separated by an Interstand Clearway of 6m width. The original multi-choice system dating from 1993 was very complex, had no clearways, and didn't work once eveything started sprouting winglets. The current Google Earth image is dated June 2009 which pre-dates the changes.

[MUFC_fan]

Just a post of record really, for when Shed-on-a-Pole brings up the subject of BA cancelling MAN flights before any other.

Out of the five that were due to be operated today, only one was cancelled out of the other fifty or so that were grounded.

Hardly coming to MAN first for the cancellations...

[Skipness One Echo]

Thanks Roverman, that's the first time I have understood the logic to it. It's only T2 that ever confused me in that manner and you're right, looking back at the old charts, it used to be even more complex!

I learned something new today, cheers !

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

MUFC_fan

If BA are finally planning to treat their MAN customers in an even-handed manner, then I for one am delighted to hear it. Maybe they have noticed the leakage of business to carriers with a better record of reliability ex-MAN. Have they at last "smelt the coffee" as our US cousins are inclined to say? In this region they have damaged their brand, and a re-evaluation of their priorities would make sense for the bottom line. I genuinely hope that BA management are addressing the MAN cancellation issue as you imply. I will continue to monitor their commitment as the winter progresses, including during regular weekday traffic.

Regards. SHED.

[DCS99]

It's never happened before in 26 flights ZRH-MAN

Arrived on-stand 0817hrs on Saturday morning from ZRH, Gate 26.
Sitting near the front of the aircraft.

I got off quickly and went through the excellent Eye-reader Passport Entry.

Roll the drums:

My bag was on the belt already.
Well done to T1 Servisair loaders!

PS. Getting yet another backscatter X-Ray on the way out of MAN wasn't the reward I wanted. Thanks boys. I thought the EU were going to outlaw those machines? They are well dodgy, I felt a pain on the top of my head immediately afterwards, surely they don't "fire" the X-rays through the top of your head?!!!

[JackRalston]

Word has it that a Thomas Cook Condor 757-300 suffered a nose gear failure in the TCX hangar this morning and is now resting on some steps....woopsie :ugh:

[MKY661]

EasyJet Officially moved!

Anyone know why Brussesl Airlines are also using T1 today? They are back to T3 tomorrow :)

[750XL]

All T3 ops have been run through T1 today due to the UKBA strike. Flights have been parking at T3 but pax bused to T1. If queues got bad in T2, they were going to be bused to T1 also but don't think this happened.

[MKY661]

Just saw T2 oon the news looked OK :)

[easyflyer83]

The plan last night was that EZY flights would park at T1 and bussed to T3 but due to plans re: the strike, the aircraft and pax were processed through T1. Obviously, from today EZY was T1.

[TechProblem]

Word has it that a Thomas Cook Condor 757-300 suffered a nose gear failure in the TCX hangar this morning and is now resting on some steps....woopsie

Yes it did, also casued a small fire, due the apu was running at the time.
:oh:

[Suzeman]

At last work has finally started

http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/Content/Airportcontroltowerbreaksnewground

Anyone know what will happen to the old VCR when the new tower comes into use? New Executive offices perhaps? :cool:

And while we are on old towers, did the old Ops Tower ever get converted into a bar or whatever was planned?

Suzeman

[Scottie Dog]

According to my contact, work on the actual tower may not start until April - although early January had been talked about as well.

If the details are correct they are talking of pouring concrete at the rate of over 8m per day for 7-10 days, and that sounds like a great speed.

[MAN777]

Old tower kept as reserve maybe ?

More likely to wait for better/warmer weather for continuous pour of concrete.

So glad we aren't getting one of those metal lollypops with stabilisers that LHR ended up with:ok:

[JackRalston]

Must be work as normal at MAN recently, the thread has been pretty quiet.

It might of been mentioned a while ago so I'm sorry if it has but i've just stumbled across a video of the Singapore 777 that went off the runway at MUC.

Singapore Airlines BOEING 777 missed landing Munich - YouTube

Also, I've got a job interview with Swissport on Tuesday for the position of Aircraft Dispatcher. Any tips or suggestions one could give? I know I need to be myself which is the main thing.

[42psi]

Anyone know what will happen to the old VCR when the new tower comes into use? New Executive offices perhaps? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gif

And while we are on old towers, did the old Ops Tower ever get converted into a bar or whatever was planned?

Suzeman


The existing tower will become the emergency back up.


The old ops tower remains unused to this day ...... I believe it was never a practical option as a public area due to size/emergency exits etc.


Options for it to be returned to it's former use, become the Airfield Ops base (instead of the portacabins @ stand 64) have been suggested at various times.

So far every idea has been rejected as it would cost ................

[Suzeman]

Thanks for the info 42psi

I see that it makes sense to retain the existing VCR as a back up.

Never quite understood why Ops moved out from their Tower in the first place - where is apron control nowadays?

I always thought it strange that The Ops Tower was to become a bar or whatever as there wasn't a lot of space up there, so I'm not surprised no one has taken the idea up.

According to my contact, work on the actual tower may not start until April - although early January had been talked about as well.

If the details are correct they are talking of pouring concrete at the rate of over 8m per day for 7-10 days, and that sounds like a great speed.

Thanks Scottie - the sod-cutting would be just that - a ceremonial start to proceedings. There will be a lots of services and preparation work before building begins in earnest.

Concrete pouring is not a good idea in the winter anyway if it can be avoided. I can understand that they will want to do it in one go as I believe the cost of bringing in the equipment to do this is a tad expensive

Cheers
Suzeman

[AircraftOperations]

Surely the existing ATC space will only become a backup as long as the tower remains upright.

[The96er]

Surely the existing ATC space will only become a backup as long as the tower remains upright.

I believe the plan is to demolish the towerblock once the new tower is up and running. Most of the floors are empty already.

[roverman]

New tower concrete core will rise in April, 7-10 day continuous pour. VCR cab will be built alongside it and hoisted into position by a 90m crane soon after. The whole 61m structure will be up by May2012. Fit out and construction of the low level building then gets underway. Operational late May 2013.

Once the plugs are pulled in the old VCR there is no going back, it will not be a back-up. Contingency arrangements for ATC once the new tower is open are the subject of ongoing consideration.

Apron Control is currently in the 6th Floor of the old tower, and moves to the sub-cab level of the new tower when it opens. A use for the old B Pie Ops Tower is unclear as I write.

[MKY661]

Is the Pier development still going ahead? They were going to put lover levels on pier B &C in T1 to create more space wern't they?

[roverman]

Still in the masterplan but timing uncertain.

[chaps2011]

MYK661
Amazing one letter wrong makes a lot of difference to the what you meant to say
sounds interesting if correct though.

[delta154]

Germanwings to expand at MAN.
No exact detail yet, but:

Low-cost German airline Germanwings intends to make Manchester a big part of its growth plans, the airline's international head of communications Angelika Schwaff has told Insider.

Schwaff said: "Germanwings is ten years old and we've been in Manchester for two years we're very happy with the route. As of this year, we are working more closely with our parent group Lufthansa to offer more services to our customers."

Germanwings currently flies between Manchester and Cologne four times a week. In December, the airline will be announcing new routes and changes to the frequency of services between the UK and Germany. It has two new aircraft on order.

Although still a low-cost carrier, Germanwings has added additional services to appeal to business users, it has introduced a three-tariff payment system and has seen 30 per cent of customers plump for the top level.

And Schwaff said that there's more to it than providing UK businesses with cheaper access to Germany: "Manchester's tourist board is very active in Germany. It organised a press trip which got Manchester really favourable coverage across Germany for its architecture, food, music and the physical regeneration of the city

Courtesy of another site.

[Suzeman]

Thanks for the info Roverman

A suggestion - the contingency for ATC could be a red and white striped portacabin somewhere on the airfield? :E

Good to hear that Apron Control will be going into the new Tower - come a long way since the fish tank on Pier B!

Is the Pier development still going ahead? They were going to put lover levels on pier B &C in T1 to create more space wern't they?

If it is "lover" levels, is this some new commercial wheeze to increase revenue?? ;)

I presume you meant lower levels? If so, where will all the engineering accommodation go to?

Suzeman

[Mr A Tis]

I'm not sure where Germanwings could expand at MAN, LH has it pretty well covered, unless they intend to take over some of the existing LH / Cityline services. I suppose Hanover could be a new dest, but I thought the whole idea of GW is CGN as a connecting hub.

I understand easy are dropping Gothenburg, Zurich & Mahon from MAN, unless any new routes are announced, will this mean a reduction in the MAN fleet?

Seville and /or Jerez could do with a link, as these places are impossible to get to from north of Gatwick(RYR have dropped the LPL-SVQ)

[delta154]

Emirates have now upgraded the Morning EK21/22 to a 3 class B777-300ER from 1st June 2012.

Change is fully available in the booking engine.

[viscount702]

Mr A Tis

As at the present time the EZY timetable has been rejigged for 6 Aircraft. Therefore not a reduction but it would appear that the 7th Unit will not be coming for summer as had been promised .Whether this will change is unknown to me

[ManofMan]

Small feathered chap tells me Egyptair 4 x weekly with 737-800 for Summer12

[MKY661]

Seville and /or Jerez could do with a link

Ive heard RYR are starting SVQ from MAN. From PPRuNe though.

Small feathered chap tells me Egyptair 4 x weekly with 737-800 for Summer12

Sounds exciting. I dont think there is any routes from MAN to Cairo so maybe it would work.

[delta154]

Small feathered chap tells me Egyptair 4 x weekly with 737-800 for Summer12

Small feathered chap could be right.

Egyptair CEO has stated there is a lack of suitable slots for him at LHR. Apparently it will be from May 2012.

The small feathered chap on another forum has also seen that airlines have put in a lot of new/increased services for 2012, has no one told them ADP is going up?

Aeroflot to Moscow SVO Daily A320
RAM to Casablanca 3 weekly B737-800
Sunwing to Toronto 2 weekly B767-300
Sun Air to Gothenburg 2 daily DO-328
Aer Lingus to Knock ATR-72
Cathay Cargo from 6 weekly to 9 weekly
AA to use B767-300 on ORD

Just to name a few.........

[spannersatcx]

Cathay Cargo from 6 weekly to 9 weekly

More chance of a pax flt coming than increasing to 9 freighters a week. :=

[delta154]

More chance of a pax flt coming than increasing to 9 freighters a week

Ill take your word for it as you seem to have been right about a lot RE CX@MAN.

However, I have seen somewhere that for S12, CX actually applied for 22 slots per week (11 in 11 out), but didn't have a breakdown of whether it was all pax or a mix.

Ill have to try and find it again, but I found it odd at the time.

[Seljuk22]

In addition to the morning flight EK will upgrade the evening flight (EK019/020) from a 2 class B777-300ER to a 3 class B777-300ER with suites from 1st September.

[Manchester Kurt]

Nov 2012 up by 3.78%
http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/alldocs/B35A1661ED1600E68025795E003C43C7/$File/November11.pdf
12month rolling total now at...
18.9m

[Mr A Tis]

The EZY Gothenburg ends in about 6 weeks & to my knowledge hasn't been replaced. I presume the aircraft must either be idle or positioned out somewhere else. The Zurich ends in about 3 months & also hasn't been replaced. Surely this works out as needing less than 6 units? I would have thought any replacement destination would require more than 6 weeks notice to sell (?)

[spannersatcx]

Ill take your word for it as you seem to have been right about a lot RE CX@MAN.

However, I have seen somewhere that for S12, CX actually applied for 22 slots per week (11 in 11 out), but didn't have a breakdown of whether it was all pax or a mix.

Ill have to try and find it again, but I found it odd at the time.

Please do and let us know thanks.

[viscount702]

Mr A Tis

GOT hasn't been replaced for Winter.

ZRH doesn't finish until summer timetable.

In summer GOT, ZRH and MAH have been replaced by adjusting frequencies on other destination and by the fact that SXF/BER is or will be on a MAN based aircraft which it isn't in the winter.

According to my calculations based on the currently published EZY timetable for summer 2012 the summer timetable is full using 6 MAN based aircraft and with the
GVA and the morning BFS on non based aircraft.

[Hamburg 2K8]

Looking at the live (ish) webcam I see that EZY are using Pier B a lot. Now for A/C at gates 2, 4, 6, 8 & 10 which all (except 2) have airbridges?? Last time I used one of these gates a few years ago (arriving at gate 10 I think) we went through the dark and cold airbridge, down a load of stairs again very cold with the wind howling up and outside under a cover that was leaking and dirty and then up some stairs and info the arrivals corridor of Pier B. This must of been around 2006/07 when travelling weekly to HAM on AB. So when I use EZY for HAM next year will I be greeted by these issues that prove very negative towards a much loved airport I travel through many times a year. I fly EZY for business so have used T3 since 07.

[Hamburg 2K8]

Might be wrong with yearv 07 can't remember when EZY started by haven't used T1 since 07 anyway.

[The96er]

Hamburg 2K8 - I'm afraid pier 'B' arrivals is still the embarrassment that you remember it as. Unfortunately, this will not change until the pier is demolished and rebuilt, which seems to be a long time in the future yet. :(

[Hamburg 2K8]

:( Thanks for the confirmation, I feared that would be the answer. Surley as the new Pier B is still many years away a solution for now could be put in place. I suppose the down the stairs and back up can't be avoided but what about the bit when you end up outside? Can't we just walk down the steps from the plane and into Pier B up the stairs?

[easyflyer83]

3/4 Last wave arrivals and first wave departures are airbridge (B & C Pier) with 2nd/3rd wave generally all B pier with steps. As Easyjet exapands, and as we have seen there seems to be uncertainty as to when (not if), we may see a greater variation of stands.

B Pier isn't the best but IMO the worst about it is the exterior, particularly on the West side. Inside it's not too bad, if a little cramped at certain times. Remember from the mid 90's-around 2005 much of this pier was regional jets to which it is well suited.

That said, many on here probably misjudge what many passengers deem as being important. Despite the Shopping Mall quips and comments, shops, retail, eateries is what many passengers want from the airport experience and T1 does this very well. The actual departure lounge is great and after flying out of T3 with two different airlines many, particularly leisure pax, commented on the lack of facilities and retail in that terminal.

So what can be done about the piers? We all agree they aren't ideal. The current economic climate and the absence of a magic wand probably means we won't see a complete rebuild anytime soon. But some of the older airbridges could be replaced as they are a disgrace and there could be an effort to make both piers more aesthetically pleasing both internally and externally. Going downstairs and upstairs isn't any great hardship, for those that find it difficult generally have special assistance anyway.

A big glass pier B & C would be great, make no mistake about it....a proud piece of architecture. But would I say the current piers are an embarrassment? If i'm being honest i'd say I was indifferent and you'll find that the same goes for many of the airports passengers and it's not like the whole airport is a dump.

Rest assured though, the piers will have to be done eventually just not in the short/mid term.

[Hamburg 2K8]

Thanks for that Easyflyer 83. Can I ask, what is your occupation? I get the feeling I've spoke to you on here before (I don't often comment, just browse so usually know who I've spoken to)? I work for Airbus UK Quality Control in Chester and only yesterday I was working on a set of future EZY wings.

[The96er]

But some of the older airbridges could be replaced as they are a disgrace

The airport have made a start on replacing the C-pier bridges. Stand 29 was the first to be replaced. Not sure how many bridges are being replaced though.

[Hamburg 2K8]

Airbridges on west side of Pier B are horrible looking both inside and out. I read somewhere that only a few airbridges on Pier C were being replaced, a few of the double ones I think. Although they should ALL be replaced. Unsure what state the T2 and T3 ones are in, they look ok to me? Also the windows west Pier B are dirty and way too old and sometimes I see some open. They could replace them with like what the east side of the Pier has, at least that looks like a different building from the outside. How's the inside these days, last time I was there in 07 they had horrible grey dirty carpet and uncomfortable small seating and crappy 90's information displays. I know the end of Pier B (gate 12) area has changed for the A380 and other Emirates flights I'm going to go for a nosey at that in Janurary when I fly from T1.

[easyflyer83]

The older C pier airbridges are much worse than B piers, certainly from the outside. Also the said bridges on C pier have disgusting carper that is almost black and needs replacing. The West side of B pier, like I said, is the biggest let down for B pier and why it didn't have the same treatment as the East side, I am not sure as that side looks much better.

Inside. It won't blow you away but it's ok. It's biggest flaw is space considering the segregation.

Btw, I'm a EZY No.1 (cabin manager)

[750XL]

Stand 6, 8 and 10 are very outdated and battered bridges, 10 more so than the other two due to it being exposed to the wind right on the corner of B pier more so than the other two. While they look a complete state from the outside, interior wise I don't think they're too bad compared to most of the C pier bridges, although all 3 of them need replacing soon (speaking as someone who operates them day in day out).

C pier bridges are just terrible all together. Go and have a look at 31/32 while they're still there, check all the damage on the exterior from them 'bumping' into each other. Outer bridge on 31 is currently out of service due to a huge piece of metal sticking through the skin, I doubt it'll get fixed.

Both the old bridges have been removed from 29 and one new one installed. I believe the 2nd airbridge destined for stand 29 was dropped from a considerable height when being removed from the ship and being placed onto the trailer, so it could be upto 6 months before we see dual airbridges on 29. 31 and 32 are due to be replaced soon too.

I'd imagine airbridges are low on the priority list for MAG, at most passengers see them for a few minutes while boarding the plane and the majority of pax couldn't care less :ouch:

[IB4138]

At least T1 has Iris machines at the UK Border post, which T3 does not. Should make getting through the border quicker....hopefully

[Skipness One Echo]

How old are the air bridges on Pier B?
Are the ones on Pier C the original ones from opening in the 70s?

[MKY661]

I dont think the airbridges in Pier C look too bad. I know the ones at Gates 28-32 look a mess on the outside but they are very nice on the inside. Gates 22-26 is the other way round. Gates 12B & 21 are probably the best airbridges at MAN but i think 21 is only used by Jet2 737-300's? Never seen anything else there?

now for A/C at gates 2, 4, 6, 8 & 10 which all (except 2) have airbridges??Gate 4 does not have an airbridge either, i used it when i went to GIB in October and we had to go outside. In fact i think it would be good if Gates 9, 11 and 12A had airbridges too as it would save people getting wet!!!

[MKY661]

Unsure what state the T2 and T3 ones are in, they look ok to me?Correct me if im wrong but is the interior of the T2 airbridges the same as the ones for Gates 6, 8 & 10 in T1 as i saw a pic of it inside T2? Havent used T2 for a while you see.

[allosaurus]

if you can manage to get on the apron you will see the ident tags on base of piers confirming they were made in the 60,s ie at least 45 yrs old

[easyflyer83]

The airbridges on 23, 25 and 27 aren't great from what i've seen.

[roverman]

Lots of questions about the heritage of MAN's airbridges above. Here are the answers:

1974 - Pier C opens, gates 21-27 with Aviobridges of both static nose-loader and full drive type. Dutch design but actually built by Harland & Wolff in Belfast! These were refurbished in the late 1980s with new heads and control systems. True classics but they work well enough.

1986- Pier C satellite opens, gates 28-32. Jetway (USA) static (@ gate 28) and full drive double bridges.

1989 - 'Terminal A' opens. A self-contained domestic mini-terminal on the footprint of the old 1962 'domestic' pier. Jetway single head full drive bridges on Gates 42,4 6,and 48 (old numbering, now 41, 42, and 43).

1993 - Terminal 2 opens, with 14 Jetway single-head full drive bridges.

1995-6. B pier revamped as 'Superhub'. Jetway single-head full drive bridges fitted to Gates 6, 8 and 10. Superhub concept abandoned in the late 1990s.

1997 - T1BA opens with single head static and full drive bridges from TEAM, a now defunct Spanish manufacturer. Three have recently been removed and scrapped (gates 47, 50 and 52). This terminal was later branded T3BA, and then just T3 when BA abandoned plans for a MAN hub.

2010 - B Pier Stand 12 redeveloped and fitted with two full drive Chinese-built Jetways. No.2 is A380 upper deck-capable, and the bridges can serve 12L and 12R respectively in split MARS mode.

2011/2 - Replacement of double bridges at gates 29, 31,and 32 with new Chinese-built Jetways. Gate 31 and 32 installation will have technology to prevent them being driven into eachother, which has been a long-standing problem at these gates.

That's the brain-dump, don't think I've missed anything!

[AircraftOperations]

As with any airbridge, I suppose there are 3 things that passengers might notice:

Design: how old/new they seem from a stylistic viewpoint
Condition: how well looked after they seem (paint/bumps/carpets/walls/ceiling/leaks/temperature/lighting etc)
Function: Do they work when they are operated?

What I'm saying is that just because a bridge looks old, it might be new and in good working order. And the same for a bridge that looks a bit battered. Then again, a newly repainted bridge or a new-build might not operate as required.

[johnnychips]

Never noticed the state of an airbridge. Just pleased don't have to get on a bus. The annoying thing is if the plane stops and then it takes ages for airbridge to arrive. Gigantic walk to passport control and/or lack of toilets on way more likely to irritate. Manchester's not bad for this.

[easyflyer83]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious Aircraftoperations. Logic that can be applied to practically every appliance or structure. But, I mentioned gates 23, 25, 27 as being poor and Roverman confirmed what we all knew.....they are 1974 vintage. Old by anyones standard.

[The96er]

From someone who operates the airbridges everyday, the 'old' C-pier and similar bridges on stands 41,42 and 43 over in T3 are easily the better of all the bridges to operate. They go where you want them to go, are very responsive and are, on the whole, very reliable. Compare these to the more modern bridges in T3 installed when the terminal was expanded whose operation can be unpredictable and very unreliable. T2 bridges used to be the worst but were modernized about a year or so ago now and their operation are far superior to what they were.

[Mr Mac]

Good to hear Pier C bridges are still going well as I was involved in the construction of that area for my then company, what seems like a lifetime ago.:sad:

[delta154]

Well, I think Emirates has firmly brushed aside the myth that MAN has low premium demand.

Hot on the heels that they will increase the morning flight to a B77W from A332, they have now confirmed via the booking engine that all 3 flights will now carry F class as of 1/9/12.

Seems its really paying off otherwise there would be no incentive to swap the HD 2 class version off the EK19/20 to a 3 class one.

[MKY661]

If Dubai keeps growing then looks like we will be having a second daily A380 possibly?

[delta154]

If Dubai keeps growing then looks like we will be having a second daily A380 possibly?

With 70 odd still on order, and with the premium demand growing as quick as it has in 2 years, Id say its a certainty, not a possibility!

[North West]

It's not a myth about F demand. It's still low compared to somewhere like LHR but there is some demand and fair play to EK. Total number of F seats as a % of the MAN market is still tiny though, let's be realistic

[delta154]

It's still low compared to somewhere like LHR

Well, that's obvious! I doubt there are many places in Europe that can come close to LHR, never mind a regional airport in the UK!

The point I was making that even thought the proportion of seats is still tiny, to go from 0 to 46 seats is 46 seats more than any other UK regional airport!

What is good to note however, that Emirates are not just flying fresh air around. The EK17/18 has been arriving departing with just 1-2 seats in F and 3-4 in J. for the past few months. (I think max free seats in F on the flight has been 6)
F on the EK22 is sold out tomorrow, and forward bookings look healthy.

Also, published fares aren't that far behind LHR. £2380 at MAN compared to £2401 at LHR tomorrow for example.

[Skipness One Echo]

Where are all these F passengers going then?

Top ten key destinations over Dubai? SOMEONE must be in the know.
They would be key candidates for a non stop on the B787 if they can identify enough premium demand.

Odd all the F demand is going East, Is that an omen?

[delta154]

Top ten key destinations over Dubai? SOMEONE must be in the know.
They would be key candidates for a non stop on the B787 if they can identify enough premium demand.

Well, just having a discussion with spannersatcx, and its interesting to point that:

-MAN will now have 92 F class seats to fill per day (and the ones on sale now are being filled)

-a report has just stated that 260,000 passengers going to HKG originated in the Manchester area, with 199,000 using London.

So, it seems there is still a huge market share to be taken for the Eastern carriers at MAN, and putting 2+2 together, Id bet HKG is in the top 10 for premium demand at EK.

Coupled together with the cargo already being shifted by CX at MAN, its interesting to note CX see no market potential at MAN?

[Hamburg 2K8]

Thanks to everyone for the info on airbridges. As we are health and safety made in the UK is there a rule to say that an airbridge cannot be moving whilst the aircraft is lining up with the stand? I ask this because when I have been in Hamburg I see the airbridges moving into position before the aircraft is lined up? I know the Germans are vert efficent compaered to us, passengers seem to walk off the aircraft within 30 seconds, takes a lot more here. Last time I was in MAN for about 6hrs in September at level 13 and the AVP I noticed turnarounds were preety quick, everything waiting for aircraft before arrival and most flights left within 15mins depature time. LH turnaround around 40-50mins, I think this is normal for a european LH flight? Do we often get feedback from airlines ref ground ops whether it be positive or negative?

One last question the guidence system at the stands, I read a while ago that MAG were getting new systems installed at every stand (unsure if this was all 3 terminals) but is this still WIP?

[The96er]

If the aircraft is maneuvering onto stand, then the airbridge must remain in it's designated 'circle' until the aircraft comes to a complete stop and must not be attached to the aircraft until the wheels have been chocked.

[Hamburg 2K8]

So why can't we do what the Germans do? A bit more efficent surley will speed up turnarounds that little bit?

[The96er]

Assuming the aircraft is chocked straight away and the airbridge is functioning correctly, then it should only take about 20 sec to attach the bridge, so any time saving will be negligible.

I'm not sure about Germany, but there are airbridges that have a setting relative to the aircraft size that allows you to pre-posistion the airbridge before arrival, maybe this is in operation there !

[Hamburg 2K8]

Thanks The96er. Like the name btw....

[roverman]

Yes, MAN will move into the 21st Century with new automatic stand entry guidance systems from one of the leading suppliers. To be installed at all pier stands commencing in the Spring 2012 and completing some time in 2013. Stand 12 already has a Safedock system. The old AGNIS/PAPA and Mirror systems are steadily being withdrawn, with marshalling in the meantime.

[easyflyer83]

We are all too quick to do Britain down about various things but in my mind moving airbridges around moving aircraft is just asking for trouble and the 'rush' to get the bridge on might just, one day, bite someone on the arse. Various gates are more difficult for positioning airbridges than others but generally speaking the time it takes to position makes very little difference.

I know Easyjet are red hot on OTP management these days which is why performance in this area has ended up being the best it ever has been in the history of the airline. Not least because Summer 2010 was a disaster in certain parts of the network. I can tell you that performance of handling agents is scrutinised on a daily basis at base level. To assist in this delays are documented, reasons why and with that comes a whole list of 'delay codes' which refers to specific reasons. Obviously when specific trends become apparant, positive action can be taken.

[lasernigel]

So why can't we do what the Germans do? A bit more efficent surley will speed up turnarounds that little bit?

What like fly into Frankfurt or Dusseldorf. Go to some remote stand, wait for all passengers to disembark and be crammed onto a bus, which then seems to do a circuit of the airfield. This happens everytime. Vorsprung durch technik I think not!!

[Mr Mac]

Lasernigel
Not just Frankfurt, you should try DXB at night when flight can not go to terminals airbridge. You taxi for quite some time and then go down the ramp passed the terminal and keep going, if unlucky right to the end of ramp (passed Flower cargo terminal) then 15min bus ride back to terminal.

[Mr Mac]

Delta 154
When are EK getting rid of A330 on early morning flight as my crew on Monday were not aware of move to 777. Hope it is true as not a fan of A330 seats.

[delta154]

Mr Mac,

EK changes for 2012

EK21/22 changes from A332 to B77w on 1st June

EK19/20 changes to 3 class B77W on 1st Sept.

Emirates website will confirm these changes if you make a dummy booking.

[j636]

Are Ryanair going to base a 5 aircraft at MAN next summer? Had a look and on Mondays and Fridays a MAN aircraft departs fro BVA at 6.20 and returns to MAN at 3.25. There MAN schedule was full a few weeks so are they going to move things or base another unit.

[peba]

It will be a "W" flight from MAN 06:25- BVA 08:35 then BVA 09:00 -VNO 12:30 and VNO 12:55- BVA 14:35 and then BVA 15:05 (14:05 UTC) -MAN 15:25.

Only 3 other early dept and 4 late arrivals that night too so 4 based A/C in MAN,Although there has been a delay on announcing it for sure.Ryanair had not finalized the number of a/c until recently I believe.

[j636]

Thanks for that, VLC has being moved to VLC based aircraft to make way for the above changes.

[lasernigel]

Lasernigel
Not just Frankfurt, you should try DXB at night when flight can not go to terminals airbridge. You taxi for quite some time and then go down the ramp passed the terminal and keep going, if unlucky right to the end of ramp (passed Flower cargo terminal) then 15min bus ride back to terminal.

Mr Mac, been there and done that as well. Was just trying to say that the GERMANS have more than small issues when it comes to getting passengers off aircraft. We at Manchester on the whole do OK, just a shame the diversions as a SLF you have to make to get "on the right side" for arrivals.

[MKY661]

Pier Development:
Manchester Airport Terminal 1 Development | Aedas | Architecture | Transport | Manchester, UK (http://www.aedas.com/Manchester-Airport-Terminal-1)

and it was supposed to be lower levels in the post i sent last week. I am a nutter it was just a typo error

[MAN777]

From LH thread

4U (Germanwings) will fly STR-LHR (3 daily) from 20th February and STR-MAN (5 weekly) from 29th July. Taking over from LH.

Also not directly MAN news but may have implications on KLM flights (more perhaps) LPL is loosing its AMS KLM link in March 2012.

[roverman]

The news today from Liverpool and Teesside is perhaps an indication of the industry waking up to economic reality after a decade of madness. The North of England has been on a circular journey looking for what it always had. An international airport - at Manchester. Lo-cos will remain at Liverpool and Leeds providing direct services on popular holiday and local business routes, but there's only room for one airport outside London serving the major flag carriers and linking into the global networks. 53N 002W is about the best place for it. MAN already has good surface transport connections, and by the end of this decade will have improved road links (A555) and faster and more frequent electric trains from Liverpool, Leeds, and Scotland. And locally the Metrolink tramway.

This is not about Manchester vs Leeds or Liverpool, Manchester is the North's gateway airport, a national asset not just a regional one. For similar reasons Liverpool will always be the North's main sea port, with Port Salford etc. limited to a niche market.

.

[mart901]

KLM still showing flights in Aug Liverpool - Amsterdam

[Manchester Kurt]

BBC News - KLM scraps Liverpool John Lennon Airport services (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-16180054) the UK general manager for KLM says it is being canceled.

[Suzeman]

MAN already has good surface transport connections, and by the end of this decade will have improved road links (A555) and faster and more frequent electric trains from Liverpool, Leeds, and Scotland. And locally the Metrolink tramway.

Hopefully most well before the end of the decade.

Airport to Scotland should be electrified by Dec 2013. I understand new 4 car "350" style units will be used.

Airport to Liverpool by December 2014

Airport to Blackpool by December 2015

Airport to Leeds will be after that

Metrolink to the Airport by 2016 if they can solve the new Tram Management System integration by then.... :eek: That will link Eccles, Bury, Ashton and Oldham to the Airport although it will take some time to get from the furthest areas by this method! Running patterns not yet sorted - even for the extensions which should open in 2012....

And one day the A555 may at last be a reality.......heard 2021 mentioned for final completion :uhoh:

So access is slowly getting better, particularly for public transport. :ok:

Suzeman

[MAN777]

(from UK Airport news)

Flybe is increasing the number of flights between Norwich and Manchester in a move which will create 15 new jobs. The budget airline's franchise partner, Loganair, will base an aircraft at Norwich airport from March next year to offer a wider range of domestic air services, creating the new jobs for pilots, cabin crew and engineering staff.

The 31-seat fast Dornier 328 turboprop aircraft will be used to provide an increased schedule of Flybe flights between Norwich and Manchester, which will move to three return flights each weekday from March 5 next year.

[JSCL]

Those Dorniers aren't cheap to operate - I can't image fares being too amazing. But good to see FlyBe increasing their MAN capacity on their own Dash's.

[nigel osborne]

Roverman,

"but there's only room for one airport outside London serving the major flag carriers and linking into the global networks"


BHX has Emirates PIA,United, Air France, Swiss,SAS,Lufthansa,Brussels Airlines ,etc, etc, all doing well and connecting to major hubs !!!! ??? :confused:

Nigel

[chaps2011]

Very funny Nigel lol! knew you wouldn`t miss that one, but have to say when this express rail link is finished they are goung to rename Birmingham to London Birmingham

Ian

[Skipness One Echo]

but there's only room for one airport outside London serving the major flag carriers and linking into the global networks

I think he means Gatwick? (Sussex / Surrey before you ask!) I mean Vietnam, Korean Air, Emirates, BA, Delta, Lufthansa all suggest he means Gatwick. What's this on the Manchester thread for then?

[roverman]

No, I meant Manchester. Ok, yes, BHX has a fairly good spread of flag carriers and serves the Midlands quite well, but it's really too close to London to be able to sustain a market for longer routes. Manchester is far enough away to be able to sustain a market in the North and some of the Midlands, due to existing volume and excellent (and improving) surface access. The Northern market is big enough for one such airport, but only one. If that market gets fragmented - as it has threatened to do in the crazy Noughties - the North will end up with a scattering of marginal regional airports, all struggling to sustain a meaningful route network. In withdrawing from Liverpool KLM have realised that serving airports 30 miles apart, except major hubs, is saturation rather than comprehensive coverage.

A strong MAN will provide a mini-hub, or at least a spoke on many networks, to compliment the London airports. It won't try to take passengers from the South, only those Northerners who might otherwise fly from London. That is why I call MAN a national airport - it serves perhaps half of the UK population across several regions and forms part of a national airport infrastructure. The 1978 White Paper got it nearly right - except for Prestwick. The 2003 'everyone grows' version needs binning - it was dreamland.

[North West]

But let's be honest here - your previous posts have resonated with an almost religious zeal about how many passengers pass through MAN and its position in an entirely meaningless "league table" of UK airports. Are you really able to provide an objective and impartial assessment of airport developments in the last 10 years that have served to stunt the growth of MAN? I rather think not. I think what to you is "madness" or "dreamland" is probably viewed elsewhere as a massive success in introducing genuine competition and consumer choice into air travel in Northern England. Why would the typical man in the street, be he living in Manchester, Liverpool or Sheffeld want air travel choices to be at the whim of a monopoly provider.
Knowing some of the detail background of R2, I think the inconvenient truth here is that is that MAN's managers and shareholders in the 90s convinced themselves of a "no one will want to fly from anywhere else" story. In hindsight, maybe that's where the real madness was.

[mickyman]

But at the end of the day there are two servicible runways
at MAN - available to anyone who wishes to use them.....and thats
always handy !!

Who cares if 'expectations' did not materialise...the capacity remains.

Perhaps the new airport slogan should be:

'Manchester - the Heathrow of the North'

MM

[roverman]

Consumer choice in the northern England market has been achieved at a number of airports by undercutting MAN, and making no profit. How will they now fund the investment they increasingly require to continue offering the consumer choice? Airport Development charges? - not really worked at Blackpool and DTV so far.

By 'madness' I mean unsustainable traffic growth which then goes belly up when asked to pay the real price. Fortunately we have MAN which ensures it makes a profit to reinvest and keep the lights on. The consumer has a choice - to fly to Madrid from MAN on Iberia, Ryanair, or Easyjet; to Oslo on SAS or Norwegian; and to many other destinations on a choice of flag carrier or lo-co, open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 12 months a year.

[PQC]

Fact is that many of the posters have all got a valid point. Expansion at Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle in the good years has been impressive. But the fact remains that the only sustainable option for major aviation growth in the North of England lies with MAN. The problem is with all the vested interests in the North, no-one is ever going to concede that this is so and put their backing behind MAN to develop all the knock-on financial improvements that would result elsewhere in the North from having one of the most vibrant 'spoke' airports in the world feeding into the major hubs plus its own dedciated liesure market.

[Skipness One Echo]

In withdrawing from Liverpool KLM have realised that serving airports 30 miles apart, except major hubs, is saturation rather than comprehensive coverage.
Like EDI and GLA you mean? NCL and MME? I think the economic climate made this one still born alas.

[Zippy Monster]

Has it snowed this morning?

Flight information page shows loads of cancellations and delays from 08:30 onwards. My better half was meant to be flying in from BSL on LX378 but that's just been cancelled. METARS and airport website show nothing though.

Anyone know what's going on?

[Funderblaster]

Closed due snow

[321go]

:*Chaos rules Im afraid. Well and truly caught with pants down.

[ManofMan]

Chaos rules Im afraid. Well and truly caught with pants down.

Absolute tosh !!!, the volume of the wet snow that came down in such a short time would have closed any airfield, but i forgot, we should have used the 30 + snow ploughs we have in back up incase it snows once a year.

Face it, when we have the infrastructure that we have this is going to happen and its no-ones fault. Also take a look at the TAF's...this was not forecast.

[One Sixty until 4.]

Quoting Mickyman earlier - "Manchester - the Heathrow of the North"! ;)

[Funderblaster]

Airport now open

[ManofMan]

Quoting Mickyman earlier - "Manchester - the Heathrow of the North"!

I take it he means because we will both have KLM services next summer ???

[j636]

How many KLM flights to Amsterdam are done KLM mainline for summer months.

[LBIA]

Quoting Mickyman - "Manchester - the Heathrow of the North"!

Quoting ManofMan - I take it he means because we will both have KLM services next summer ???

No that cant be right, I think you'll find that he was meant to say was, Like Heathrow, Manchester also comes to a girding halt and closes down with the first sight of a bit snow.

[Penworth]

Actually it was forecast - I had a look at the TAFs last night and this snow was forecast then. I agree though that with the amount of snow we get in Manchester, it's unrealistic to expect us to have Scandinavian levels of runway clearing equipment.

[GayFriendly]

I agree though that with the amount of snow we get in Manchester, it's unrealistic to expect us to have Scandinavian levels of runway clearing equipment.

I also agree but surely there should be enough equipment (at all UK airports not just MAN) in place to deal with the modest (although unpredictable) amounts of snow that we get EVERY year!! It's not like snow is a once in a decade occurrence in this country, then I could understand getting caught with the proverbial pants down....

[JSCL]

Calling Clarkson...

Can we borrow your Snowbine please...

[750XL]

MAN has a fairly substantial amount of snow clearing equipment (compared to other UK airports at least) and over the past two weeks I've seen them testing it regularly im preparation for the snow. I believe stand 22 is still closed to house all the equipment so I can't see why we failed so badly this morning? Possible lack of staff due to the unexpected snow?

[ManofMan]

Actually it was forecast - I had a look at the TAFs last night and this snow was forecast then. I agree though that with the amount of snow we get in Manchester, it's unrealistic to expect us to have Scandinavian levels of runway clearing equipment.

I would happily stand corrected but i dont recall and TAFs last night showing SN, I saw RASN but not SN.

Like i said happy to be proved wrong.

[JackRalston]

Apart from the SNOCLO, only heard of one mishap. EI206 (EIN20D) had to go-around due to a slow moving vehicle taking much longer then expected to cross D1 to DZ1. As much as the driver of the vehicle was trying to apologise for this, the ATC wasn't too happy and the Shamrock pilot wasn't bothered at all!

[AndyH52]

Roverman, do you realise how patronising some of your posts come across as? I for one appreciate the contribution that MAN makes to the northern economy, but I do not see that concentrating access to the region via one point helps other areas. The 'ripple' effect does not work in economic terms.

There may well only be room for one northern hub airport, and logic says that should be Manchester, but there are different markets at play here, and as demonstrated at Liverpool, Leeds and to some extent Blackpool, there is significant demand for point to point traffic from those airports. At present the economic climate makes that tough to sustain, but airports are generally a long term investment.

Given that despite the huge drop in Manchester pax numbers in recent years and the fact profits have remained steady, suggests that either other parts of the Group, especially EMA, are making notable contributions to the financial performance, or that income from pax is actually not that great and that the large majority of income comes from ancilliary activities and property - something MAG is well ahead of its competitors on.

Given future traffic forecasts, even the lower estimates now produced by the DfT, there is room for growth and a profitable future at More than just MAN.

[321go]

Quite simply a number of flights were delayed, diverted and cancelled this morning which should not have been had an appropriate level of advance planning and in particular a timely response taken place. Be it SN or RASN (splitting degrees?) the warning signs were all there for anyone, even with minimum experience, to see. I only hope that lessons have been learned for the remainder of "our winter" and that the response is more appropriate next time. Last year you did well. Your first efforts this year left a lot to be desired and unfortunately have been costly to all of us . No excuses. You can and should do better MAN.

[JackRalston]

321go

I've been told they were understaffed this morning when the SNOCLO came about, simply didn't have enough people to drive the ploughs.

[321go]

Thanks Jack. No more words required then. Hopefully lessons learned for all concerned.:uhoh:

[nigel osborne]

Fair point Mickyman..The only mistake they made with the 2nd runway was that it was built too close to the 1st so cannot do mixed mode.

The UK government said last week that they have downgraded passenger forecasts for air travel down from 445 million to 330 million due to the recession,and no new runways will be needed before 2050 ?

So looks like Birminghams runway extension starting next year may be the largest project for a while on that front then.

With APD rises I think the smaller airports will fade.. Durham I think has just been put up for sale, and LPL will probably have to settle for just low cost.

It will be MAN,BHX,LGW that will be the growth airports, purely because they are closest to large conurbations.

Nigel

[Suzeman]

The only mistake they made with the 2nd runway was that it was built too close to the 1st so cannot do mixed mode.

Perhaps Nigel, you would like to suggest where the alignment of any second runway SHOULD have gone then, given the topography and buildings around the airport, the cost and the likelihood of it getting planning permission?

Suzeman

[Topspotter]

I see MAN was a complete laughing stock yet again today, ten minutes of sleet and they closed for two hours ....pathetic response, get a grip FFS

[Curious Pax]

10 mins sleet? Rubbish. Whilst 2 hrs SNOCLO may have been excessive, 2 miles west of the airport was at least an hour of heavy snow, though a lot didn't stick.

[JackRalston]

Topspotter

I have to agree with Curious Pax. I live about 5m NE of MAN and we had very heavy snow for a prolonged period of time early morning. Then after it reopened at about midday, we had another period of very heavy snow.

[jackieofalltrades]

The only mistake they made with the 2nd runway was that it was built too close to the 1st so cannot do mixed mode.

I would say the biggest mistake with the 2nd runway was not building a taxiway all the way to the far western end; thus requiring any aircraft landing on 23L, or departing on 05R to back track on the runway.

[MANTFS]

Where as closing the airport for snow clearance may just about be understandable, 3 hour delays as experienced yesterday waiting for the de-icing rig is surely avoidable?
Whatever the excuses I do not think the airport from a customer perspective covered itself in glory yesterday.

[ManofMan]

Just waiting for all the Armchair airport tycoons to come on now and say that Manchester is a shambles as it does not have enough people trained in catching run away dogs !!

[delta154]

Just waiting for all the Armchair airport tycoons to come on now and say that Manchester is a shambles as it does not have enough people trained in catching run away dogs !!

And I'm waiting for all the MAN-fans to come on and defend the fact it took 30-40 minutes to catch a dog and caused an aircraft to divert, saying its 'totally acceptable' and 'it takes time to clear dogs of the runway'

New strap line: MAN, the airport that can do no wrong.......

[ManofMan]

Let me guess Delta154, you would have just let aircraft land and put hundreds of lives in danger ??

How on earth can anyone lay blame at the feet of MAG for a stray dog ???

I know Manchester has it's problems, but blaming it for this is scary.

[delta154]

Let me guess Delta154, you would have just let aircraft land and put hundreds of lives in danger ??

Erm, no. Not once was I suggesting that.

I'm more concerned that it seems no-one was adequately trained to handle this situation in a quick and speedy manner. I'm pretty damn sure that this isn't the first time this hasn't happened at an airport......

How on earth can anyone lay blame at the feet of MAG for a stray dog ???

I'm not blaming MAN for the stray dog, it could happen anywhere, I'm blaming MAN/ground staff/whoever for what seems the lack of training for this type of event and causing an aircraft to divert and 4 others to do several laps of the MAN holds.

[Ian Brooks]

Try catching a runaway dog that has no intensions of being caught as it is game to them
especially a whippet, took 4 of us 10 mins to catch a small terrier on the beach this summer with the help my sheep dog as well who finally rounded him up in true form

Very funny now but as worn out at time


Ian B

[delta154]

Try catching a runaway dog that has no intensions of being caught as it is game to them especially a whippet, took 4 of us 10 mins to catch a small terrier

Ok, so this question has to be asked.

In an area where Deer, foxes, (flamingoes) and possibly horses, cats and dogs (you never know) could all be realistic 'intruders' or 'escapees', rather than creating a Benny Hill scene with 10 or so guys chasing the animal up and down a runway, is it not time a couple of airfield ops guys were trained in dart guns.

If something poses such a danger, plus putting a distressed animal at even more distress by chasing it, surely this is a sensible option?

[RoyHudd]

You cannot win Delta. MAN is defended against ANY criticism by folk who don't actually take-off and land aircraft there. They are blind and resistant to reason, ignoring the fact that there is a high level of criticism through official channels from pilots. The place is a very second-rate airport with a management who hide behind H & S, costing the airlines much time and money. No future in suggesting improvements on these pages.

[Ian Brooks]

Not standing up for airport but just stating the obvious, hat I would like to know is where did the dog come from?

Ian B

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

And I'm sure Mr. Hudd wouldn't be complaining at all if his A330 engine ingested a stray dog on departure? And his airline wouldn't pursue legal redress if that were to happen? If you want a hazard-free operation, identified hazards must be removed. Inconvenient for everyone, but the alternative is much worse.

How irresponsible of MAN to declare a runway with a known hazard unavailable for use until the problem was rectified. Nobody should be allowed to defend this!

[delta154]

How irresponsible of MAN to declare a runway with a known hazard unavailable for use until the problem was rectified. Nobody should be allowed to defend this!

I would like to point out I am not questioning the judgement of closing the runway, its obvious why it was closed, I am more concerned why it took so bloody long to catch the thing.

I must admit that whilst I do like MAN airport, I agree with Mr Hudd that there seems to be this tedious chorus of supporters willing to defend every single action of MAN, no matter how trivial/serious and just down right stupid the event was. There only seems to be a few people bemused and questioning why a large international airport was closed for such a long time, by a dog!

If this had happened at LHR there would have been chaos and no end of media reports. But nope, MAN is fine and looks squeky clean in light of 2 prolonged closures in 2 days.

[750XL]

What more do you want airfield ops to do when there is a stray whippet on the runway? Whip out the bazooka from the back of the 4x4 and blow the thing to bits?

Or of course, we could just open the runway and allow a nice shiney jet to ingest the dog causing, so you can then blame the airport for allowing the aircraft to land with a known hazard on the runway, and also probably moan about the amount of time it took to clean the runway afterwards?

We don't live in a perfect world with unlimited resources and money. **** happens and it's one of those unfortunate events that takes time to deal with, learn to live with it :hmm:

I am more concerned why it took so bloody long to catch the thing.

How would you have caught it then? I assume you have experience in chasing Whippets across acres of runway and dealing with them within 10 minutes to prevent disruption.

I look forward to hearing your response :p

[delta154]

How would you have caught it then? I assume you have experience in chasing Whippets across acres of runway and dealing with them within 10 minutes to prevent disruption.

Well, Id rather not say on here as Id have all the animal lovers down my neck and I just can't be bothered with the aggro on a saturday evening when Im chilling with a cider. Cest la vie.

[750XL]

Shoot the fecker?

That's exactly what airfield ops did in the end, as far as I know, so any better suggestions :rolleyes:?

[delta154]

That's exactly what airfield ops did in the end, as far as I know, so any better suggestions

It seems my idea wasn't used as an MEN article claims 'happily the dog was re-united with the owners'.

Seems my suggestion would have brought a quicker resolution after all. That will teach dog owners to keep your dog on a lead!

[750XL]

Maybe it took more than 5 minutes to locate the dog? :ugh:

Manchester is a fairly big place you know...

[Guest 112233]

If the article says "Happliy reunited with the owners" - It does not state what "state" the afformantioned, mobile, self propelled, airfield obstruction was in or whom was "Happy".

CAT III

[Albert_Ross]

Happily reunited with its owners.

On which side of the pearly gates have they been reunited?

[Topspotter]

Would love to have seen it, The sight of a whippet running rings around those ops jobsworths would have been a joy to behold.:D:D

[MKY661]

I would say the biggest mistake with the 2nd runway was not building a taxiway all the way to the far western end; thus requiring any aircraft landing on 23L, or departing on 05R to back track on the runway.

I think there was a plan to do this in the future.

[Richard Taylor]

J**** C**** FENTONNN!!!! ;)

[mickyman]

This thread has gone to the dogs......for sure !!

MM

[learjet50]

You do not seem to have a high regard for Ops staff at Manchester and you also seem not to have the full Information before you post threads on here (Re Snow closure) of yesterday.

Could I please ask what experience you have in order that you post these Threads as they can be very hurtful to lots of people who work there butts off to Keep an Airport the Size of Manchester operational in some very harsh conditions.

Please let us know you foundation to be able to post such threads.

If you are Top spotter wow Ive talked to you but please be careful what your comments contain unless you are 100 percent sure of your facts and not listening to chineese whispers that seem to be rife in the spotters world


Gerry

[NigelOnDraft]

Having spent 45 mins in/out of the hold awaiting capture of said hound, I would not necessarily criticise what MAN did. However, we did wonder why it is quite acceptable at LHR to report the foxes that wander around, including across active runways - and whilst "monitored", or a leader despatched to "investigate", Ops continue as normal :ooh:

Anyway, gives a good jibe to make at MAN security when they stop you for an extra 1ml of water that shame they get exicted about that, but cannot stop loose dogs getting past them :O

NoD

[LN-KGL]

I just wonder how a dog can get inside the castle (read security fences) like that?

Now I wonder why the EK20 this evening was over 2.5 hours late out of MAN. The playback on flightradar24.com showed a number of aircraft in holding pattern before EK20 departed. Was it a new run(a)way dog? :uhoh:

[anotherthing]

Off all tha types of dog it could've been, it had to be a whippet, being Manchester...

Wasn't it on the TAF? How dare MAN be caught out :D

[RoyHudd]

For a 2 r/w airport, MAN certainly has a high level of holding. But I better not complain, because I will be wrong...no debate allowed!

The new spate of holding is allegedly because the airport authorities have come up with the idea of a Hunt, which is intended to chase down foxes, whippets, and possibly garrulous pilots too. The Airport Hunt has been out practicing, chasing their tails all over the place and causing temporary closure of active runways at short notice. NOTAMs to be issued in future. They masquerade as uniformed folk careering around the place, calling themselves "Leaders". Daft beggars :ok:

[Ian Brooks]

Don`t forget that 2nd runay opening is curtailed at present due ATC training on new equipement ( electronic progress strips ) which I think runs until February and also
Christmas closure.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/infopop/icons/icon14.gif

Ian B

[Topspotter]

Learjet 50 ...very harsh conditions ? i guess you mean the recent artic blast MAN suffered when the mercury plunged to around plus 2 and you had a dreadfull sleet blizzard that lasted all of ten minutes.... result a well equiped major international airport closed for two hours because they "forgot" to treat the runway overnight...pitifull

[750XL]

Temps of plus two? I'd like to see some evidence to back that statement up :ok:

Forgot to treat the runway? Errr, treat it for what exactly?

The airport closed because the snow wasn't predicted, meaning we didn't have the staff on standby to deal with the snow that fell :ugh:

Or do we keep 30+ staff on standby 24/7 at a high cost (which will be passed onto you, the customer, probably resulting in more moaning).

[j636]

Mabye I can't comment here as I don't know how much snow there was but fly DUB-LHR-LAX on Firday morning and snow wasn't due to fall in Dublin and they had teams clearing/de icing the runway late Thurday night for flights the following morning.

[Topspotter]

Snow wasnt predicated ???? er... its mid winter in the northern half of the country surely to god you have to plan for the possibilty,... if it had happened in july yeah you may have had a point

[750XL]

There's quite a comprehensive snow plough actually, think it involves a bit more than a few blokes with brooms too :eek:

http://www.magworld.co.uk/magweb.nsf/Content/AirOpsDLWinterOpsPlan

Yes it's mid winter, yes we get snow in winter, that's why the airport has relocated all of their snow clearing equipment to stand 22, and is why they have been testing the stuff over the past few weeks. However, where do you want them to get staff from when snow starts to fall unexpectedly? Or are you saying they should have 30+ staff sat on their arse all winter on the odd chance snow falls unexpectedly? :suspect: I think you need to go and read up on basic economics of running an airport, or operating any business for that matter.