MANCHESTER - 8 [Archive] - Page 16

Hamburg 2K8

24th Jul 2012, 19:51

Thanks for the info 750XL. But do we know the reason why anyone? And is this a new ILS system or did they not replace this too?

On another note, have there been re-alignments of the gates in Pier B T1? Reason I ask is that a few weeks ago when I went to Egypt with EZY we made our way to the allocated gate which was on the screen as gate 3, but when we got there I noticed our A320 was parked up on stand 2 and there was no aircraft on stand 3, we then made our way downstairs and into a "holding area" with some seats and boarding started quickly and was efficient, quite a nice and decent size (looked new) area for the amount of passengers on our flight. Came back a week later parked on stand 1, first time arriving in T1 for about 2 years and was impressed with the immigration hall, looks much nicer and brighter, efficient again (at 3AM and 1 flight in front and 1 behind us) and bags were collected about 10mins later, outside T1 and in taxi 30mins after parking on stand. Shame the outside of Pier B isn’t as nice and clean as the inside.

I'm so glad FR are not in this terminal!

Evening All.

　

　

　

　

　

MKY661

24th Jul 2012, 20:07

Maybe they are doing something to it. I know they refurbished it not long ago. The only probelm I have with Pier B is that its very narrow. Since EZY have moved in it looks to have been a lot more busier than Pier C. When ive flon in and out I find that Pier B is full of Jet2 and EasyJet whilst Pier C is practically dead.

JSCL

24th Jul 2012, 21:35

easyflyer83

24th Jul 2012, 23:46

Pier B's Eastern exterior looks fine but the Western side (the side with the airbridges) doesn't look great. Internally, the pier looks and feels fairly pleasant on the first floor but underneath in the corridors and stair ways below isn't great.

edi_local

25th Jul 2012, 06:21

Exclusive: Runaway boy, 11, jets to Rome alone after slipping through security at Manchester Airport | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1584308_exclusive-runaway-boy-11-jets-to-rome-alone-after-slipping-through-security-at-manchester-airport) - more fun at MAN it seems :)

Not brilliant that this happened at all, but so many people are coming out of the wood work and using terms like "passport control" and "security breach" etc.

The BBC talking head said something like "think of how many times you show a passport at an airport these days". The answer is either once or twice. Once at the check in desk and once at the gate. Or, if you check in online, just once, at the gate. That's not excessive, it's perfectly sensible (which makes me wonder why people never have it ready at the gate). There are no immigration checks on exit from the UK any more, the people at the gate are checking you can enter the next country. Security just want to see a boarding pass, they don't care who you are, they just need to know you're on a flight that day and don't have anything malicious in your hand baggage. Many people have their passport out thinking it will be checked, but it never is, yet they still think that is "passport control" and for some reason refer to it as such.

There were 3 failures at MAN, of course, the first was him getting through security without a boarding pass, however, the boy still went airside after going through the required level of checks, so he was not a threat in the way that the news will make him out to have been. The second failure was at the gate where he slipped through and the third was on board, where a simple head count would have sorted this out in about 10 minutes.

easyflyer83

25th Jul 2012, 06:59

Not all airlines do head counts though.

EuroWings

25th Jul 2012, 14:56

Security just want to see a boarding pass, they don't care who you are, they just need to know you're on a flight that day and don't have anything malicious in your hand baggage. Many people have their passport out thinking it will be checked, but it never is, yet they still think that is "passport control" and for some reason refer to it as such.

Indeed, security checkpoints at airports in the UK and much of Europe are only interested in seeing boarding passes. The same is not true in America, however, where ID/passport checks are mandatory at security.

Traditionally, boarding passes were checked by dedicated staff at desks and they still are at numerous airports (including Liverpool down the road). However, Manchester seems to have introduced a new procedure in the last year or so, where the actual security screeners check boarding passes as you are putting your belongings in a tray to be scanned. Gatwick has "railway style" automated barriers to check boarding passes and I seem to remember that these disappeared from Manchester.

TSR2

25th Jul 2012, 15:47

Gatwick has "railway style" automated barriers to check boarding passes and I seem to remember that these disappeared from Manchester.

Don't remember Manchester ever having automated barriers.

Sky News this morning showed an animation of the route taken through the airport by the 11 year old boy. It clearly showed the first check point as 'Passport Control'.

Skipness One Echo

25th Jul 2012, 15:53

The Manchester procedure is annoying as people who fly often expect things done logically. MAN feels very geared for the once a year flyer like LGW used to be. The logic jars at MAN IMHO.

MKY661

25th Jul 2012, 16:09

Gatwick has "railway style" automated barriers to check boarding passes and I seem to remember that these disappeared from Manchester.

I remember these in T1 (not sure if they were put in the other terminals) but they got removed because apparently it was damaging the borading cards. Thats what one of the security staff told me anyway.

LBIA

25th Jul 2012, 16:19

Jet2 have just confirmed that head counts will now to become mandatory after boarding off all flights, this is following the incident at Manchester yesterday.

TartinTon

25th Jul 2012, 17:31

I thought they already were for all airlines? Otherwise what's to stop someone checking in a malicious bag and then not turning up?

Can't remember a flight I've been on when a headcount wasn't carried out.

If J2 weren't ( as your post seems to suggest) then they need a serious kick up the backside.

Mouser

25th Jul 2012, 17:40

The little bastard that run away from his mother needs the boot up the arse.

leisurelad

25th Jul 2012, 17:40

The gate staff will be the ones doing a passenger count, if all the boarding cards have been scanned or counted at the gate, many see this is enough, i only ever done a head count if there was a discrepancy at the gate.
Not alot of airlines do head counts although i presume this will now be re-introduced.

OltonPete

25th Jul 2012, 18:08

Anybody know what is happening with the flybe Brussels?

Last flight bookable on the flybe site 9/9/12 same as the BHX-HAM.

Is this aircraft required for the new EDI or GLA to EMA which start the day after?

One GDS system shows it still bookable for winter but the flybe website does not. The combined FR/SN/BE passenger figures in June were amazing but I assume FR CRL are affecting yields on the BRU flights?

Pete

Ernest Lanc's

25th Jul 2012, 18:24

Not alot of airlines do head counts although i presume this will now be re-introduced.

I am sure JET2 do headcounts...I know EZY or FR did at Easter when I flew from Liverpool.
Yes..I am 99.99% that jet2 also do headcounts.

I am flying from MAN on Monday with LS, can't say this incident gives me confidence in either.In particular Jet2...Could have been anyone.

RoyHudd

25th Jul 2012, 18:45

LBIA

25th Jul 2012, 19:20

It hadn't been mandatory to do head counts on aircraft parked on an airbridge stands as ground staff have accounted for all passengers going through the gate. Only flights that have been parked on remote stands were passengers have had to walk on or been bussed to the aircraft have been head counted up until now.

cu nim

25th Jul 2012, 19:43

I cannot envisage a terrorist attaching him/ herself to a family travelling on holiday! So although the checks were inadequate, one has to think of the profile of an unarmed terrorist. And it is not that of a young child.

You wouldn't like to put your money on that would you.
It was carried out a number of years ago in Afghanistan although it was a coach.
The young bomber killed fifteen Ruskies he was nine years old and traveling with a supposed family .

rampman

25th Jul 2012, 20:41

I cannot envisage a terrorist attaching him/ herself to a family travelling on holiday! So although the checks were inadequate, one has to think of the profile of an unarmed terrorist. And it is not that of a young child.

Think again about what you say .. i was in afghan last year and there was two bombings carried out .. one was a 11 year old boy and the other was a 9 year old girl ... made my heart skip a beat when i heard the news of the 11 year old at manchester

2Planks

25th Jul 2012, 20:47

Chaps - your point is not valid - the child did pass through the security check - so if he had a bag it was scanned and he passed through the arch.....

Ernest Lanc's

25th Jul 2012, 21:53

It hadn't been mandatory to do head counts on aircraft parked on an airbridge stands as ground staff have accounted for all passengers going through the gate.
FR did a head count when we came back from Easter...They noted a passenger was missing, but other pax explained he/she was not coming on board.

Again - I am sure Jet2 do head counts, no matter the mode of boarding..

Chaps - your point is not valid - the child did pass through the security check - so if he had a bag it was scanned and he passed through the arch.....

Just because he went through a check, that does not mean the kid could NOT be a threat.

we don't need to talk explosives, we only need to talk small that could cause panic on an a/c.

Anyway -- Can we trust any mode of security that lets a child unchallenged board and aircraft with no passport or boarding card..

That is not foolproof security..Also jet2 don't allow children to fly alone..The mind boggles and I am flying from MAN with Jet2 on Monday.

The security at the airport must have been flawed. and how did he get on the aircraft with no boarding card?. safer to walk, methinks.

The96er

25th Jul 2012, 22:14

FR did a head count when we came back from Easter...They noted a passenger was missing, but other pax explained he/she was not coming on board.

Again - I am sure Jet2 do head counts, no matter the mode of boarding..

You can be sure all you like, but until today Jet2's policy was to only do head counts when boarding via steps. When boarding via an Airbridge, it was accepted that the checks through the gate were suitable enough. Thomson operate a similar policy.

Ernest Lanc's

25th Jul 2012, 22:41

You can be sure all you like, but until today Jet2's policy was to only do head counts when boarding via steps. When boarding via an Airbridge, it was accepted that the checks through the gate were suitable enough. Thomson operate a similar policy.
Well I have been headcounted by Jet2 and FR for that matter, with FR this year.
I will not argue the point about the Airbridge as I am not 100% sure.

Makes no difference anyway..This kid should have been head counted at the gate, so what's the difference?.

If there was a discrepancy at the gate, which there should have been..There would have been a secondary headcount on the aircraft.

Also how did this child get though security?.. You drop your bag of, you go to security where adults and children show their documents..Then off to the departure lounge..have a pint and go to gate when ready.

You show your passport at gate, your boarding pass is ripped in half..You go to aircraft..You show your boarding pass with open passport..

The child had no documents whatsoever, yet is able to deceive MAN security and Jet2 gate and aircraft staff.

This kinda proves my point.
Five airline staff suspended after youngster was able to board Jet2.com flight without boarding pass or passport
Rome alone: 11-year-old boy flies from Manchester to Italy without ticket | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/25/11-year-old-flies-rome-manchester?newsfeed=true)

Have airport security staff been suspended also I wonder?.

bermudatriangle

26th Jul 2012, 00:13

i fancy a few days in rome.perhaps Jet 2 via manchester seems the cheapest option,no ticket or passport required ,just turn up and travel,happy days !!

easyflyer83

26th Jul 2012, 01:17

In retrospect i'm not surprised this has happened.

Security was the best chance of picking this little lad up. I'm not into dishing out blame and I'm not saying there aren't mitigating circumstances but they had the most time with the child and therefore a better chance of realising he wasn't with anyone.

I have sympathy with the gate agents. Checking boarding cards and passports and making sure they match with children running around makes such an error so easy I imagine.

Once onboard the same applies. Children sometimes run onboard in front of their parents and before you know it they're down the cabin and you have to just carry on and keep checkin boarding cards. Families tend to pass you all the boarding cards, sometimes there are other people boarding in between two groups of the same family and it can be hard to keep track.

Ultimately, a head count would likely have highlighted the problem here. Even then an incorrect headcount could lead to the figure given to the dispatcher but given all that had happened up to the point of getting onboard, that would have been really bad luck.

Lots of other airlines, BA included (certainly when I was at GB) a headcount isn't completed.

I'm not dismissing the incident but in response to some of the comments about the safety of Jet2, I honestly think that this could have happened at any airline in MAN that day. A headcount would have eventually highlighted the problem but all that happened before could have led to the boy boarding EZY, BA etc etc.

Ernest Lanc's

26th Jul 2012, 01:57

Ultimately, a head count would likely have highlighted the problem here. Even then an incorrect headcount could lead to the figure given to the dispatcher but given all that had happened up to the point of getting onboard, that would have been really bad luck.
From my link.

Once on the aircraft, none of the crew realised he did not have a boarding card as he took a seat. A headcount failed to alert them to the discrepancy.
Rome alone: 11-year-old boy flies from Manchester to Italy without ticket | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/25/11-year-old-flies-rome-manchester?newsfeed=true)

The boy would not have checked in..Therefore he would have gone straight to security.

Security would have asked him to look at his passport, forget the red herring about him tagging onto a family.

Adults and children alike are asked in an orderly manner to show documents, put any metal/laptops under that scanner...in this case the lad would just have walked under the arch.

Now in the departure lounge - When he goes to gate he is asked for boarding card with passport open at photo..Then he would have gone to the aircraft and on boarding, the cabin crew would have checked the boarding pass, while passport is open at photo page..

So this boy induces a serious mistake by MAN security, quite separate from the Jet2 procedures.

He gets through the gate without showing documents, he then gets on the aircraft with no boarding pass, and passport open at the photo page. He then is not noticed in a headcount.

Ultimately, a head count would likely have highlighted the problem here. Even then an incorrect headcount could lead to the figure given to the dispatcher but given all that had happened up to the point of getting onboard, that would have been really bad luck.

easyflyer83

Read the first quote above, or follow the link..Jet2 headcounts are orderly..mainly as I remember when the passengers are seated and seat belted.

This is all the more serious due to the Olympics..The Americans are here, the British live here..And this episode just might go down in some terrorist training manual.
Even though I do travel from MAN at times, I was typing what happens at BLK to the letter...

I think the same procedures are carried out at MAN, and Liverpool have stringent security.
Blame has to be laid at those responsible at MAN security, and I see Jet2 have suspended 5, and an enquiry is under way...Not much, but better than nothing.
This episode is not bad luck, it's poor security managment - all round.

pwalhx

26th Jul 2012, 07:21

MKY661

26th Jul 2012, 07:32

Ive been though the security at MAN on a lot of occasions now and they ask that passports are not required and they only want your boarding card. I think you are supposed to show your passport at Check-In. at the gate and at Immigration of your arrival airport. Most airports I use only want your boarding card at security. The only place ive been to where they do want your passport is Gibraltar.

paully

26th Jul 2012, 07:56

Dear me, some serious Po Faced responses on here...one smugly satisfied 5 hardworking staff are suspended and probably lose their jobs....Dont you ever make a mistake which this was. No one set out to be careless just doing their jobs whilst understaffed and overworked...Try it some time :ugh::ugh:

Forgot to add just for the record the MD of Jet2 admitted that they dont do head counts if boarding via an airbridge..........well until yesterday obviously

pwalhx

26th Jul 2012, 08:10

Well said paully.

edi_local

26th Jul 2012, 08:16

I don't think I've ever shown my passport at security in the UK. Why would I? It's not their job to check my ID, it's just their job to make sure I'm getting on a plane and not taking anything dangerous with me.

Anyway, someone said there should have been a discrepancy at the gate. Why would there have been? The boy had no boarding card and wasn't checked in, even if the gate staff counted all the boarding cards and checked them against the system 100 times they would still never pick up that someone extra was on board as there was no trace of the boy on the flight. Gate staff don't stand and count the passengers as they go through, they just need to match the number of boarding cards against what is shown on the screen and then, if required, match what the cabin crew count on board.

TSR2

26th Jul 2012, 09:13

Forgot to add just for the record the MD of Jet2 admitted that they dont do head counts if boarding via an airbridge..........well until yesterday obviously

When using an airbridge, a headcount should not be necessary if there is effective scrutiny of boarding cards at the entry door to the aircraft. This is the only point in the current boarding process that would prevent entry on to the aircraft by unauthorised would-be passengers.

I am sure Jet2's investigation will focus on the reasons why the scrutiny of boarding cards on entry to the aircraft was on this occasion ineffective.

JC25

26th Jul 2012, 09:20

There is no requirement to show your passport or ID at security, whether travelling internationally or domestically. All passengers pass through the same security search area and security have no interest in where you are travelling too, just that you are travelling somewhere. Checking ID documents for international passengers is the responsibility if the airline (thru handling agent). Some airlines don't require ID at all for domestic passengers.

It is concerning that the boy passed unnoticed through three stages of control undetected, but I don't think any single person or group can be blamed. It was unlucky and certainly undesirable, but I highly doubt it would have happened had it been an adult and less easily bunched in with a group of low risk kids.

It's also worth noting that in Europe there is no requirement to check boarding cards in the aircraft (unless bound for the UK) so UK controls should be more likely to detect these things.

Ernest Lanc's

26th Jul 2012, 11:08

I am intrigued as to why having flown through Manchester on at least 10 occasions in the last three months I have not been asked to show my passport at security then Ernest? Generally you show your passport at check in (or not if you have checked in on line) and then at the gate as you board. At security they merely scan your boarding card.

pwalhx.
"At security they merely scan your boarding cards"..

This child did not have a boarding card..He was 11 years old and would have been expected to carry his own. Even if i am wrong over passports at security, That does not explain why he was allowed through with no boarding card..
Anyway, someone said there should have been a discrepancy at the gate. Why would there have been? The boy had no boarding card and wasn't checked in, even if the gate staff counted all the boarding cards and checked them against the system 100 times they would still never pick up that someone extra was on board as there was no trace of the boy on the flight.
The boy would have been asked for a boarding card at the gate..If he did not have one, he would not have been able to access the Airbridge to the aircraft..It's that simple - No card = No flight..

Being the lad was not checked in, he would have no boarding card..In that case again - No access to aircraft.
] Gate staff don't stand and count the passengers as they go through, they just need to match the number of boarding cards against what is shown on the screen and then, if required, match what the cabin crew count on board. 26th Jul 2012 09:10
Exactly: And if the child did not have a boarding card, he could not have given them one to match on the screen - Could he?.
Dear me, some serious Po Faced responses on here...one smugly satisfied 5 hardworking staff are suspended and probably lose their jobs....Dont you ever make a mistake which this was. No one set out to be careless just doing their jobs whilst understaffed and overworked...Try it some time
paully.

This job is not like any other.It's not being po faced to want to travel safe..This child could not have been an innocent child.

Also two levels of security have been breached, not one..Also I am (almost)sure you have to show an open passport at the gate before boarding.

For Example let a surgeon make a mistake while undertaking an operation, then see what happens..Never mind eh - he did not set out to be careless.

seahawks

26th Jul 2012, 11:24

Ref 23R/05L ILS problems.
Basically a sub-standard piece of kit was installed by a supplier who have repeatedly failed to make it work to CAT3 standard for any significant period.
Opting for a lower cost supplier has spectacularly backfired, hopefully some lessons have been learned.

lexxity

26th Jul 2012, 11:49

The lad in question said he sat in the loo onboard during boarding and take off.

Ernest Lanc's

26th Jul 2012, 11:54

One: You are not allowed in the loo during landing and take off..

The original question still holds good...How would he have got on the aic without a boarding pass, to get inside the loo?.

I flying with Jet2 from MAN on Monday to ALC, I expect security will be better after this episode, which will be a good thing to come from this shambles..Not jst Jet2 to blame, he got through decurity with no documents..Bet that's been put right now.
EDIT: Good will come from this is the long run, lessons are bound to be learned and we will all be safer for that.

avturboy

26th Jul 2012, 12:46

As a regular business pax travelling through MAN I have no great concerns about overall security there; clearly on this occasion a mistakes have been made in passenger handling, it will be investigated and lessons will be learnt. Don't really see the point in all the speculation, the mistakes have occurred, in a system staffed by people that is always going to be a possibility (highly remote - we hope). Let the mistakes be investigated by folks who job it is to do that.

I accept the notion put forward by some that there is no likelihood of this mistake happening to an adult passenger. Having passed through security scanning the lad was not identified as 'carrying anything', therefore regardless of the right & wrongs of his boarding the aircraft he was not a security threat so from that point of view 'security' have done there job, it is other aspects of passenger handling that have gone wrong.

From my regular travels through other UK airports I think this set of circumstances could just as easily have happened elsewhere, I don't think it is a reflection on the Manchester as such. Airline staff and handling agents are working under pressure up and down the land ... (I am neither)

EuroWings

26th Jul 2012, 13:22

The original question still holds good...How would he have got on the aic without a boarding pass, to get inside the loo?.

Think about it, he's an eleven year old and it's the start of the school holidays so Terminal 1 is packed out with families and groups. Kids often aren't trusted to keep hold of their own boarding passes and passport, which is entirely sensible. The lad mingles with different families from airside to the plane and they think he's just ahead of/behind his own family, or something like that.

As I mentioned before, Manchester Airport no longer has dedicated staff checking boarding passes at the entrance to security, it's done by busy screeners who aren't necessarily in a position to thoroughly check each child in a large group (they might not be able to see them even).

Boarding the plane, mum/dad hands over boarding passes and passports to the handling agents and later boarding pass stubs to the cabin crew, this lad meanwhile mingling in with these families who perhaps aren't paying as much attention to him as they should.

Jet2's policy was that no headcount was needed, if the aircraft had been boarded via an airbridge directly from the terminal. All UK and Ireland based airlines the cabin crew have to check boarding passes, but headcounts are not compulsory. However, many countries don't have that requirement either.

Jet2's policy was not slack at all, since British Airways currently does not routinely perform headcounts either in these circumstances. Not that the media would tell you that. easyJet and Ryanair have compulsory headcounts on all flights (then again, the latter avoids airbridges wherever possible) and this incident may result in this procedure becoming mandatory on all airlines.

Good will come from this is the long run, lessons are bound to be learned and we will all be safer for that.

He was fully screened by security staff, so judging by the current standards he no risk to the aircraft. If he'd evaded being scanned, then the Airport would have been in massive trouble.

It's not terrible uncommon for passengers to end up boarding the wrong flight and only noticing when the destination/flight number is mentioned!

Ernest Lanc's

26th Jul 2012, 13:54

EuroWings

Think about it, he's an eleven year old and it's the start of the school holidays so Terminal 1 is packed out with families and groups. Kids often aren't trusted to keep hold of their own boarding passes and passport, which is entirely sensible. The lad mingles with different families from airside to the plane and they think he's just ahead of/behind his own family, or something like that.

This is IMO and with respect a cop out..An 11 year old is not a kid..Even if a child was not trusted to hold a boarding card, then when the parents hand over the collective passes, there should be a headcount per pass..My daughter has always shown her own documents, and why are kids allowed to mingle before being properly processed?.
As I mentioned before, Manchester Airport no longer has dedicated staff checking boarding passes at the entrance to security, it's done by busy screeners who aren't necessarily in a position to thoroughly check each child in a large group (they might not be able to see them even).If that is true and I am not doubting your word - Then if busy screeners are not able to do their job and check each child, that in certain circumstances could be dangerous IMO.
Also without the need to wait for the outcome of an enquiry, there should be dedicated staff checking boarding passes at security at an airport the size of MAN.
Jet2's policy was that no headcount was needed, if the aircraft had been boarded via an airbridge directly from the terminal. All UK and Ireland based airlines the cabin crew have to check boarding passes, but headcounts are not compulsory. However, many countries don't have that requirement either.
I can accept that..What I can't accept is a child/person being able to board an aircraft without a boarding card..

I know there are going to be enquiries that will get to the bottom of this matter..But what gets me is the double whammy of a child getting though both airport and airline security.
It's not terrible uncommon for passengers to end up boarding the wrong flight and only noticing when the destination/flight number is mentioned!
It's not the same though - is it?..for that to occur would just mean a boarding card had not been scrutinised as it should have been, at least there would have been a boarding card.
Airport security would not have been at fault, as genuine traveler would have a boarding pass, so would be screened and allowed through.

750XL

26th Jul 2012, 13:57

If only people knew how common this sort of event was :oh:

I personally don't see what the huge fuss is all about :*

pwalhx

26th Jul 2012, 14:08

Given your obvious concern over this incident Ernest I would suggest to be 100% safe do not fly again. We live in a world were mistakes are made, in the greater scheme of things I am sure all of us who have worked or do work at airports can point to similar incidents that never make the papers. The security in the U.K. is not infalable, but I tell you what it is a damn sight better than some places I have been.

EuroWings

26th Jul 2012, 14:13

This is IMO and with respect a cop out..An 11 year old is not a kid..Even if a child was not trusted to hold a boarding card, then when the parents hand over the collective passes, there should be a headcount per pass..My daughter has always shown her own documents, and why are kids allowed to mingle before being properly processed?.

Well, yes an 11 year old is not really a small child, so without trying to blame anyone here, how come this alleged family didn't notice him tagging along? While yes lessons will have to be learned by staff, that aspect of this story actually concerns me just as much....

Aside from that, you obviously keep good control of your family heading through an airport, sadly some parents/guardians don't. I've seen children running ahead or darting about when they should be sticking close to the person holding the documents. Staff are under pressure at busy gate areas and don't have eyes in the back of their head to see a child slipping through.

The security in the U.K. is not infalable, but I tell you what it is a damn sight better than some places I have been.

Manchester actually goes above and beyond the requirements for passenger security screening, with the compulsory use of the (often considered controversial) backscatter X-ray machines if the metal detector picks up anything.

If Gatwick can have automated access gates to security where boarding passes are scanned and a photo taken, I cannot see why Manchester can't have them. It's not like Gatwick doesn't cater for infrequent travellers and large families.

Ernest Lanc's

26th Jul 2012, 14:41

pwalhx

Given your obvious concern over this incident Ernest I would suggest to be 100% safe do not fly again. We live in a world were mistakes are made,
Not just a personal concern as you probably well know..

Had it just been Jet2 making a mistake, I would not even bothered posing the matter.
had it just be a lapse by overworked security staff..the same, you can put them down to one offs.

It was a combination of jet2 and MAN security that I can't understand.
I am sure all of us who have worked or do work at airports can point to similar incidents that never make the papers
Maybe had earlier incidents been reported, then maybe an 11 year old may not have been able to be on his way to Rome, unchallenged.

I am flying from MAN on monday with Jet2, and am probably better off with this matter coming to light..
but I tell you what it is a damn sight better than some places I have been.
No..Please compare us with the best, not saying we are better than less than good.

Ernest Lanc's

26th Jul 2012, 14:47

If Gatwick can have automated access gates to security where boarding passes are scanned and a photo taken, I cannot see why Manchester can't have them. It's not like Gatwick doesn't cater for infrequent travellers and large families.
I agree, and airport as large as MAN should have the best...I also don't think that security staff should be working under pressure, if more manpower is needed - Then a small tariff on such a large pax, should not break us..
I pay an ADF at BLK without quibble, I would pay a small sum at MAN to help man security more effectively.

Skipness One Echo

26th Jul 2012, 14:49

Photos are only taken at LGW and LHR for domestic passengers to prevent people in the common use departure lounge connecting within the UK and getting off without passing through customs.

Everyone seems to be missing the obvious. This kid is a little ****. Eleven year old me would have known this was 1) wrong, 2) risky, 3) been living in fear of the consequences.

This kid is unlikely to be that dumb, eleven is not an infant.
Given the lack of boarding card check before security, the "local" rule at MAN where the clearing security officer checks may have meant that a kind soul thinking he was helping a harrased family through by not checking each kid's paperwork rigorously. At most big UK airports I use, I doubt the kid would have gotten that far. Again the little brat claims he mingled with a family, sounds like he was quite aware.
I see no excuse at the gate though. It's not rocket science alas.

Ernest Lanc's

26th Jul 2012, 15:11

He had left home..he probably had this planned for days.

Given the lack of boarding card check before security, the "local" rule at MAN where the clearing security officer checks may have meant that a kind soul thinking he was helping a harrased family through by not checking each kid's paperwork rigorously.

I have never come across a kind soul at MAN or BLK for that matter,,But if this is right, this kid spotted a chink in security others, not just a little **** might have also.

EuroWings says kids are not always under their parents control, I have not seen that, but I don't doubt EuroWings for one minute.

On the back of that, it must be a rule that parents keep control of their children, or they go to the back of the queue, to be processed at the end..

The only real answer is a dedicated boarding pass checker, they cost money, but is there an alternative?.

pwalhx

26th Jul 2012, 15:39

Ernest, having done the courses I do compare us with the best and the rest do come to us for advice.

I am sorry but you are making one massive mountain out of a molehill.

Ernest Lanc's

26th Jul 2012, 16:58

pwalhx
It can never be a mountain out of a molehill were security is concerned IMO.

There are security breaches, but they need to be minimised..If you knew of similar incidents like this that did not get reported..Then this is not an isolated incident.

All airports and airlines can learn from this..A very clever 11 years old could have been al qaeda.

The UK are militarily involved in sensitive places, and as such are and will remain a target for the foreseeable future..

Not that long ago Glasgow airport was targeted by terrorist..After which armed police with semi automatic machine guns sealed of the terminal.

There was no direct attack on Blackpool, Glasgow was rammed by a burning car, and the police thwarted two attempts in London.

Terrorist attacks when they come, are out of the blue...We had this recent incident and if we can improve security as a result, then that mountain was well made from that molehill.

pwalhx - I am not saying security in MAN or the UK is poor..maybe people do come and ask for advice..Lets make sure we have the best possible advice to give them.

pwalhx

26th Jul 2012, 17:24

Security was not breached he went through the security checks, what did not happen was the paperwork was not checked. He obviously had no bags so no securty issue there. he went through the scanner so obviously no issue there.

Were his actions malicious or mischievous, I think the latter.

I should add I never said previous events at different airports havent been reported, they have and dealt with outside the glare of publicity.

It would frighten you if you knew the number of securitywarnings Manchester and other airports get in a year, despite that people in their 10's of millions fly from british airports quite safely.

750XL

26th Jul 2012, 17:37

It can never be a mountain out of a molehill were security is concerned IMO.

Where exactly is 'security concerned' in this case? Please tell me what harm this 11 year old young chap could've caused?

Mr Mac

26th Jul 2012, 17:47

I use two NW airports (Man & LPL) and have noted that out of the 2 Manchester has had issues with security in the past 12 months on a number of occasions. They are I believ under watch having let 3 a/c from european destinations off load with out clearing immigration within last 12 months. There have been other issues as well. Liverpool does not seem to suffer to the same degree after they changed there security supplier. I do not want to get into the debate re Liverpool or Manchester as I am from Yorkshire and realy I am not that bothered with the tribal differances between these 2 cities. However having said that I have noticed a decline in the Manchester offering recently, and an up swing in that offered by Liverpool.

My main gripes with Machester are parking fees (luckly EK drop me off and pick me up on most trips). Baggage delv times - record for me 1hr 30min - world record holder in my travels and has been that way since it was known as Ringway, and has never improved. Some of the structures are becoming very tired T2 quite shabby, and T3 going same way. T2 ok currently but a bit shopping mall like. Also noticed toilets missing seats on a number of occassions - where do they go even in T2 lounges !!. As a premier gate way they need to raise the bar.

Liverpool security were misrable and jobs worths but have improved. Terminal ok but again tired - why do Brits never clean buildings externaly or very well internaly. Immigration has been ok for me, but it is quite small ,and must get very crowded when football charters are in with larger a/c. But over all for a LOCO center, for that is what it is, it is not bad.

750XL

26th Jul 2012, 17:54

They are I believ under watch having let 3 a/c from european destinations off load with out clearing immigration within last 12 months.

That has nothing to do with the airport itself or security, that's down to handling agent staff (dispatchers). Security have now taken over control of all domestic arrivals doors, and there hasn't been a single mistake since, so security have actually fixed the problem :ok:

My main gripes with Machester are parking fees

Use the train, bus, taxi, coach etc instead?

Baggage delv times - record for me 1hr 30min - world record holder in my travels and has been that way since it was known as Ringway, and has never improved

Nothing to do with the airport once again, it's the handling agents.

T2 ok currently but a bit shopping mall like

That's the way all airports are going, they need to make their money somehow.

Also noticed toilets missing seats on a number of occassions

Never once seen a toilet seat missing at MAN, they even won best airport toilets of the year :ok: (BBC News - Manchester Airport's toilets win top award (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8397851.stm))

EZY7117LPL

26th Jul 2012, 18:05

I hope this 11 year old boy faces some serious consequences for his actions. Everyone is quick to blame the staff but their job is very hard - I know what its like to be handed one big pile of passes and everyone is moving around plus you are aware that people are waiting and it needs to be completed as quick as possible.
After all this boy is over 10 years of age and is therfore responsible for his own actions - it is the boy at fault here, and I hope there are some consequences - what he did was wrong.
I would never have even dreamed of doing something like that when I was 11, I cant believe he had the nerve to decieve so many staff and passengers like this.
In this case the media have gone after the easy pickings - ie the airport, airline and staff. There would have been an up roar if they accused the child of doing anything wrong.

Plus I have never been through an airport that doesnt have dedicated staff members checking the boarding cards! It wouldnt take much, just one person with their mind focused on this alone could do it quick enough.

Richard Taylor

26th Jul 2012, 18:08

I'll bet he'll be portrayed as an 11yr old 'character' who is much misunderstood & wouldn't hurt a fly reeeaaallllllyyyyyy...:ugh:

Ernest Lanc's

26th Jul 2012, 18:31

I should add I never said previous events at different airports havent been reported, they have and dealt with outside the glare of publicity.
OK..don't we have a right to know then?..Not un-reported. just covered up.
It would frighten you if you knew the number of
security warnings Manchester and other airports get in a year, despite that people in their 10's of millions fly from british airports quite safel

pwalhx - How many of these security warnings are hoaxes?...Look when I flying I never think a plane will come down, i never think of terrorism..I bet the pax at 9/11 never thought so either.
I agree millions fly every year unharmed, of course you are right..And that probably remain the case.
Where exactly is 'security concerned' in this case? Please tell me what harm this 11 year old young chap could've caused?
I don't believe this..He could well have been 12/13 or 14..He might have had a plastic knife that would have caused panic, who knows?..I don't.

Hey: Had an adult done what this lad had done, they would have been in the chockey, quick time.

In this case the media have gone after the easy pickings - ie the airport, airline and staff. There would have been an up roar if they accused the child of doing anything wrong.

You can't blame the press, you can blame the 11 year old boy though, and so can the police.

pwalhx

26th Jul 2012, 18:37

Covered up, I am sorry do you really think it is in the public interest to advertise this sort of thing, I dont.

Quite frankly I find your comments more frightening and dangerous than anything this young man did.

Ernest Lanc's

26th Jul 2012, 18:48

Covered up, I am sorry do you really think it is in the public interest to advertise this sort of thing, I dont.

You have a right to know, we don't..That's OK then.

Quite frankly I find your comments more frightening and dangerous than anything this young man did.

What I said was on a forum in response to an 11 year old that managed to dupe all and get on an aircraft unauthorised. That is frightening.
That's it from me ..Sick of going round in circles..Last word..If you are 750XL want to make light of this incident..and say how innocuous this lad was, and how he was no security risk..Then I reckon i am way out of touch - with reality.

750XL

26th Jul 2012, 18:50

I don't believe this..He could well have been 12/13 or 14..He might have had a plastic knife that would have caused panic, who knows?..I don't.

Hey: Had an adult done what this lad had done, they would have been in the chockey, quick time.

Right... That still doesn't explain why him boarding the flight was a security risk?

Any one of the passengers on board, or crew for that matter, could of had a 'plastic knife' with them. Him boarding the flight wasn't a security risk

pwalhx

26th Jul 2012, 18:56

Ernest we agree on something time for the last word and agree we should agree to disagree.

I have never made light of the issue, there are concerns that need to be dealt with and will be.

EuroWings

26th Jul 2012, 19:32

My main gripes with Machester are parking fees

I've been using Manchester for over 20 years now and this has never been an issue. If you're willing to book at least a few days in advance, Manchester has some of the cheapest on-site and off-site parking in the country, especially the latter. It's peanuts compared to the London airports or even Liverpool. Last month, I paid £25 for 8 days parking at Jetparks, which is airport owned and takes less then 10 minutes from car park to terminal. That would have been easily double and probably more at Heathrow.

If you turn up on the day and go in the multi-storey, it'll be a very different story of course.

EZY7117LPL

26th Jul 2012, 19:50

Liverpool has some of the cheapest car parking in the country and is definetly cheaper than Manchester if booked in advance plus it is 2 mins to the terminal from long stay and a max of 5-7 mins from the furthest point of the pricebuster. Liverpool is recognised for cheap car parking.

Ernest Lanc's

26th Jul 2012, 19:54

Liverpool has some of the cheapest car parking in the country

I have to join this..Parking at BLK, costs Nothing for up to I think 15 days.

Yes there is a small ADF, but hey that's seperate.

TSR2

26th Jul 2012, 20:00

Liverpool has some of the cheapest car parking in the country

Totally disagree.

I pre-booked parking in the multi-story car park at LPL in May this year and it cost £42.50 for a stay from 14.30 on Saturday until 12.30 on Monday ie; under 2 days, and you get wet walking to the terminal if it's raining.

Ernest Lanc's

26th Jul 2012, 20:30

Ryanair to close Spanish routes in airport tax row
Ryanair is to scrap 11 routes to Madrid and four to Barcelona El Prat following the Spanish Government’s decision to double taxes at the two airports.

The routes include one between Madrid and Manchester, one from East Midlands to Barcelona, and another from Leeds Bradford to the Catalan capital.

This has affected Liverpool also.

Ryanair to close Spanish routes in airport tax row - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/9420638/Ryanair-to-close-Spanish-routes-in-airport-tax-row.html)

Tight Seat

27th Jul 2012, 14:18

What's going on at MAN , Friday 1500. Several missed apps , then a switch to 23L. I guess it's 380 time about now?

750XL

27th Jul 2012, 16:23

EK A380 returned to stand, subsequently blowing freshly cut grass all over 23R

Airport was reduced to single runway ops (23L) which meant aircraft had to backtrack etc, think we lost a Small Planet and Monarch to Liverpool due to holding times.

Was very weird to hear 'Snowplough X entering runway 23R' at the end of July in work :}

Tight Seat

27th Jul 2012, 17:08

Nice work 750XL, thanks for the info. I guess these things happen.

Betablockeruk

27th Jul 2012, 17:33

Nice work 750XL, thanks for the info. I guess these things happen.

But seemingly only here. This year Manchester Airport has suffered reduced ops due to grass, a flamingo and a stray dog.

Would make great TV and a mean question on Millionaire in a few years :}

MKY661

27th Jul 2012, 20:44

What's going on at MAN , Friday 1500. Several missed apps , then a switch to 23L. I guess it's 380 time about now?

So thats what te 'incident' was then. I was at MAN today and I wondered why we were stuck at the Gate for ages.

BHX5DME

2nd Aug 2012, 19:56

http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/alldocs/A77DAA98CC125B4580257A4E00522C45/$File/July12.pdf

JackRalston

3rd Aug 2012, 16:38

Curious Pax

3rd Aug 2012, 16:54

BA ATPs used to swing over Wythenshawe Civic on short finals, but them were the olden days....

StoneyBridge Radar

3rd Aug 2012, 17:35

....before the risk analysis numpties ruled "not less than 4 miles when turning final.". :mad:

opnot

3rd Aug 2012, 18:19

visual approach

RoyHudd

3rd Aug 2012, 19:11

Why do these patently unqualified folk venture such silly statements? Do they want to join in "being a commercial pilot"? Ah well. this website has some good stuff and masses of clag.

Suzeman

4th Aug 2012, 10:37

.before the risk analysis numpties ruled "not less than 4 miles when turning final.".

Thought it was an environmental thing?

It's in the UK AIP under para 2.21 Noise Abatement Procedures.

http://www.mantma.co.uk/pdf/eg_ad_2_egcc_en.pdf

This from para 2.21 a

iv. Unless otherwise authorised by ATC, aircraft using the ILS in IMC and VMC shall not descend below 2000 ft before intercepting the glidepath, not hereafter fly below it. An aircraft approaching without assistance from ILS or radar shall follow a descent path which will not result in its being at any time lower than the approach path which would be followed by an aircraft using the ILS glidepath.

For visual approaches, or following a visual circuit, to Runway 23R/23L the following additional limitations apply:
1. Jet aircraft shall not join the final approach at a height of less than 1500 ft aal
2. Propeller driven aircraft whose MTWA exceeds 5700 kg shall not join the final approach at a distance of less than 3 nm from the landing
threshold and at a height of less than 1000 ft aal.

and turned final at 1500ft.

So if it was at 1500 feet that's OK then although I'm not sure how you knew what the height was.

Can't blame the pilot for asking for a visual if they can see the airfield and are set up and briefed for a possible visual approach and can't blame ATC if they give him clearance if it is safe and expeditious to do so.

Suzeman

JackRalston

4th Aug 2012, 12:00

So if it was at 1500 feet that's OK then although I'm not sure how you knew what the height was.

Can't blame the pilot for asking for a visual if they can see the airfield and are set up and briefed for a possible visual approach and can't blame ATC if they give him clearance if it is safe and expeditious to do so.

If it came in for a visual approach I have no issue with it being that close. If it was being vectored for an ILS approach, it is almost borderline on the guidelines of a minimum 4 mile approach. I used FR24 to note it's height when turning finals.

I am just curious to know how often you will find aircraft on a visual approach, that close to an airport on base leg.

Suzeman

4th Aug 2012, 13:00

Seem to remember they tried to offload HUY last year? Now succeeded

Suzeman

MAG sells its majority stake in Humberside Airport | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/business/s/1585056_mag-sells-its-majority-stake-in-humberside-airport-)

IB4138

4th Aug 2012, 14:58

There is more to selling HUY than it first seems, according to the MEN today.

Manchester Airport secures £1bn boost to buy Stansted | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1585328_manchester-airport-secures-1bn-boost-to-buy-stansted)

MAG, together with an Australian Investment Group are looking to bid for Stansted.

Mr A Tis

4th Aug 2012, 16:26

Let's hope the bid fails. Having lost a fortune @ Humberside I don't see the benefits here. Last time they splashed cash out to buy other airports, they took the eye off the ball @ MAN & let the infrastructure deteriorate.
Stansteds' appeal has peaked so why take on a huge liability?
Spend the money on MAN & make it the place that everyone wants to go to, so there's even less of a need for Stansted to even exist.

G-WWBB

4th Aug 2012, 23:45

Just had RYR3243 take a massive shortcut on approach to 23R, went directly over my house on base leg at about 2000/2500ft and turned final at 1500ft. It was Ryanair so what do you expect http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Has anyone ever seen a flight take that big of a shortcut on approach?

I saw a few one day a couple of years ago, EK777 first caught my eye taking a short cut over Salford Quays, turned on to finals about 5 miles out, but that was some serious wx avoiding. Pilots refused to go 10 miles, can't say I blame them, cell looked pretty mean. Great spotting for me though :)

Bagso

5th Aug 2012, 07:12

Like many others on here I suspect we are all totally lost with this one.

MAG was "essentially" set up by the various councils in the Manchester area to operate invest and expand Manchester. It went off piste a few years back buying initially East Midlands, then Humberside and then even more bizarre , Bournemouth.

With expansion of cargo facilities at Manchester limited there was no doubt some sense in buying East Mids....But Humberside and Bourmenouth ?

And now the current airport directors are on an excursion to buy Stansted, a busted flush if ever there was one.

It was built as Londons 3rd airport but not one major airline has moved from LHR of LGW since it opened.

It got lucky as it opened as final development coincided with the locost boom. Even there there were alleged rumours of massive subsidies (unsubstantiated of course), to entice certain carriers in. Those discounts (if they existed), stopped and in the intervening period it has lost massive amounts of traffic regardless of the economic outlook. As soon as slots appear elswhere flights shift.....

Air Berlin moved en masse to LGW, Easyjet have also moved many of their flights, even shifted some to Southend.

The place is run by Ryanair who as the largest operator must surely have some influence over fees etc , upset them and there is nobody left !

With massive investment required in Manchester to make it one single terminal and therefore more attractive as a major transfer hub, why on earth are MAG looking at investment in an airport which will not benefit anybody in the Manchester area by one iota.

Using this mentality why not take it one step further, buy Stansted but then sell Manchester ?

They could then rename M.A.G. ...S.A.G.

Given recent traffic levels at Londons "so called" 3rd airport it seems a rather appropriate acronym !

Shed-on-a-Pole

5th Aug 2012, 10:23

Back in the day, East Midlands and Bournemouth Airports were put up for sale by their owner - National Express, if I recall correctly - as a package deal. The two had to be purchased together or not at all. Hence, Manchester Airport ended up owning Bournemouth Hurn by default when East Midlands Airport was the true object of their desires. A kind of large-scale 'buy one get one free' deal!

Like most posters here, I sincerely hope that MAG does not pursue the proposed Stansted acquisition. I can just see Ryanair playing games with services ex-MAN/EMA/BOH to pressure MAG for cheap fees at STN where it is more difficult for them to walk away. And as others have pointed out, STN offers little of substance for an investor beyond it's frightening dependence upon the most ruthless low-cost airline in the world. Not great for profit potential, and assured high fixed costs. A money-pit. Money which cannot instead be put to good use at the group's other airports.

The only rationale I can see for MAG buying STN is to beef up the group's profile as a potential takeover target in the future. Certain well-placed executives would likely do very well financially based upon such a scenario, but my guess is that the Greater Manchester public would not. Let's save the investment funds for Manchester Airport, please.

Finally, if MAG needed to raise those additional funds at all, it seems very unwise to have rejected Abu Dhabi's proposed involvement. The Emirate's relationship with the Manchester area is already well-established and proven, and includes substantial investment in the region by E t i h a d which is of great significance to MAN's future prospects.

This whole Stansted takeover saga is shaping up to be the most calamitous single misjudgment to afflict Manchester Airport in years. If we can all see it, why can't the MAG management team? Or maybe their agenda on this issue is at odds with the interests of the Greater Manchester public?

Suzeman

5th Aug 2012, 12:06

JackRalston

6th Aug 2012, 07:23

Brief powercut at approx 0650. Was prepping for a boarding at gate 213 and the lights dimmed for a split second. Baggage belts all went down and T2 check in went completely off for a split second. Seen screens showing next info for monarch departures at 0810 as fuel supply has been cut off.

Anyone know if whole airport was affected or was the powercut just T2?

Curious Pax

6th Aug 2012, 08:18

One of the Premier Inns near cargo was still out at 0810 when I made a failed attempt to buy a coffee from the Costa in there. Sounds like the airport's generator kicked in to cover their own needs.

Suzeman

6th Aug 2012, 08:23

Anyone know if whole airport was affected or was the powercut just T2?

Looks like it was everywhere.

Flights delayed after power surge causes system failures at Manchester Airport | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1585356_flights-delayed-after-power-surge-causes-system-failures-at-manchester-airport-)

Suzeman

PhilW1981

6th Aug 2012, 08:26

I'm currently sat on a ZB A321 on a stand at T2. Seems only T2 affected as we are apparently shortly going to push back and taxi over to T1 to take on fuel.

Suzeman

6th Aug 2012, 08:33

MEN take on the increase in July reported earlier.

Sun seekers boost passenger numbers at Manchester Airport | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/business/s/1585208_sun-seekers-boost-passenger-numbers-at-manchester-airport)

No mention of freight which was only down by 4% so a better performance than recently. Movements show a marginal increase.

Suzeman

Bagso

6th Aug 2012, 09:47

I agree with you shed...

utterley amased this isn't getting more comment

MAG was set up by the local "GTR Manchester Councils" to operate , develope and invest in Manchester Airport, for the benefit of the NWest.

It is now in effect being sold off to a private investor Australian, with absoluty no interest in Manchester who are simply using the MAG as a vehicle to buy another airport 200 miles away.

And note this is an airport which Manchester business,and Manchester MPs fought so hard against expanding in the eighties, when it was decided to build yet another London airport, , the fear being expansion would suck in yet more demand from the regions.

Looking from the outside this appears to me to be a sell off by stealth !

Worse still instead of selling to ETIHAD who would have ploughed billions into Manchester "regardless" of the Stansted deal we are going to end up with a majority shareholder whose only interest is buying and therefore investing in Stansted, otherwise the deal is off,

...that can be the only conclusion as they have stated as much as a condition of sale.......!!!!!!

750XL

6th Aug 2012, 10:58

The impact of the power cut was minimal, other than the fuel issues.

All the T2 and remote hydrants were off with the exception of west apron near stand 60. Some flights were towed over to T1 for fuelling and others sat it out in T2 until the fuel came back, about 10am

mickyman

6th Aug 2012, 15:14

Re Stansted:
As long as everyone involved in the negotiations gets a cut - whats the problem !
Viva la Capatalista.....

MM

ManofMan

7th Aug 2012, 09:30

Morning All,

Can anyone please point me in the right direction to finding some figures for month on month freight tonnage for Manchester

Many thanks

Rob

Suzeman

7th Aug 2012, 11:40

Rob

All you ever needed to know ....The flown cargo figures are in these monthly statistics.

Manchester Airport : Traffic Statistics (http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/Content/TrafficStatisticsArchive)

Suzeman

european130

9th Aug 2012, 03:55

Here at the Airport meeting relatives off Small Planet from Kos, the arrivals board shows its still scheduled to arrive at 3:50 - the fact that its 4:51 and my Sister has already called me from Liverpool where it diverted over an hour ago! All the other flights that have diverted overnight are still shown as estimating at their original time (most are in BHX and one in LBA). Think that an Airport of Manchester size should have somebody on a night shift that can update those screens to show Diverted........ Watching FR24 and the long hauls are now decending MON A330 and TOM B763, be interesting to see what happens to them and if they are reported correctly on the screen.

Ringwayman

9th Aug 2012, 06:37

Well it does state:

"While we make every effort to ensure that this information is as accurate as possible, it is provided by third parties and we publish it as supplied to us. We are therefore not able to verify its accuracy or completeness and shall have no liability for any loss or damage incurred as a result of relying on this information. You must take appropriate steps to verify this information before acting upon it. It is important that you check with your airline to confirm your flight status. "

directly underneath the times. If the third parties don't update, then it's not the airports fault that wrong information is displayed.

roverman

9th Aug 2012, 06:50

Flight time information, ETAs etc, is processed at MAN by a system called Chroma. The airport owns and operates it but is dependent upon information being inputted by airlines, handling agents and ATC which then drives the displays at the airport and on line.

Mr A Tis

9th Aug 2012, 08:56

8 diversions due to fog this morning. Is the CAT3 ILS not working on 23R ? or WIP going on?

Mouser

9th Aug 2012, 08:59

Read elsewhere tech problem with ILS

TURIN

9th Aug 2012, 09:19

The airport owns and operates it but is dependent upon information being inputted by airlines, handling agents and ATC which then drives the displays at the airport and on line.

Strange that the screens that show information to the airport staff are updated in a timely manner though. Well, most of the time. :suspect:

Mr A Tis

9th Aug 2012, 13:50

Looks like today's EK18 is a 777. Is this due to more A380 wing fixes or just slack bookings?

OltonPete

9th Aug 2012, 17:49

Mr A Tis

Loads generally fall way during Ramadan, BHX has seen quite a lot of EK three class 77W's (354-364 seats compared to 428/442) on both services and I can assure you it is not due to the sudden demand for first class seats at BHX.

Most websites have Ramadan ending around 18/08 this year and hopefully things should improve.

The next couple of years will be interesting as Ramadan merges into the traditional low season of May/June giving potentially three months of low loads.

Pete

avturboy

9th Aug 2012, 19:07

If the third parties don't update, then it's not the airports fault that wrong information is displayed.

Sorry that doesn't work ... if Joe Public can access the likes of FR24 and see in real time that the flights are going elsewhere (let alone hear it with a scanning radio) then there is something wrong if the airport cannot keep up with that information .

I am very local to MAN, my employment is to some extent dependent on MAN being successful ... I wont knock MAN without good reason ... but when data is out there in the public domain and the airprt is behind the times then I'm sorry but they are guilty of providing a very poor service and the should be held accountable for not being up to speed.

MAN-OPS

10th Aug 2012, 19:03

rogera

11th Aug 2012, 17:24

visited the airport for a couple of hours this afternoon which was busy with typically 4 or 5 aircraft at the holding point to 05L and a similar number of inbounds to the same runway. the emirates A380 waited for about 20 minutes at the holding point before it could take off.

my question is why wasn't 05R being used for arrivals as the airport seemed busy enough ?

BTNH

11th Aug 2012, 22:24

23L/05R were in operation to 10.30 a clock (isch) after that time there are no controller to operate both runways at the same time.

manairporspotter

12th Aug 2012, 18:13

SEpfoh_49HY

whilst 05L was in operation managed to get this beauty at the lights:ok:

avturboy

12th Aug 2012, 23:30

The entry in Chroma which allows handling agents to show aircraft diverted on flight information screens has been disabled so some unknown reason, i think it is a system error. Therefore the correct updates could not be shown for the LLC flight as with the TCX/EY/FR diverts today.

There may well be technical reasons why the screens were not / could not be updated .... sadly that is of no consolation to Joe Public travelling through the airport, and it is the airports reputation that suffers .... I support the airport I don't want to see stupid ***p like this going on.

avturboy

12th Aug 2012, 23:37

SEpfoh_49HY

whilst 05L was in operation managed to get this beauty at the lights:ok:

manairspotter, brilliant video, what's the location of that viewing point please?

LN-KGL

13th Aug 2012, 18:02

I'm pretty certain that this spot J in the Google Earth file below:

http://www.plane-spotter.com/Airports/UK/MAN/Manchester_International_Airport.kmz

Or if you prefer a one page PDF - again spot J
http://www.plane-spotter.com/Airports/UK/MAN/SpotterGuide_MAN.pdf

Ivan aromer

13th Aug 2012, 18:57

havent quite got the drift have we hoskins!

Tight Seat

15th Aug 2012, 14:26

Not sure if I need to take more water with the afternoon gin, but did I see 2 380s get airborne from EGCC this afternoon ?

LN-KGL

15th Aug 2012, 20:13

Let's say you saw A6-EDE twice - to land around 12:50 local time and departing around 15:16lt. The only other A380 in the vicinity this afternoon was an Air France A380 passing above MAN 14:32lt at 36,000 feet.

I presume you had Hendrick's ;)

Tight Seat

15th Aug 2012, 20:28

Bombay dear chap!

I guess it was a bit of expectation . Expected 380 off around 1420 , it didn't go until 1516. Must have been the VS then the EK an hour later.

:ooh:

Fairdealfrank

15th Aug 2012, 21:04

Quote: "Bombay dear chap!"

Gin?, or destination?!

LN-KGL

15th Aug 2012, 21:12

I think Tight Seat meant the blue Sapphire - I'm more governed and go for the No. Ten DS

The reason for the late departure of the EK18 may have been cause by what came down in buckets.

dublinamg

15th Aug 2012, 22:20

Was taxiing out on another flight and saw the EK flight lift off - looked great even though the weather was terrible then with the wind and rain.

Was on a FR flight and we taxied out but there were 6-7 ahead of us then. Saw the A380 go and then a Monarch and two BMIs but then they stopped all departures for a while due to the wind. After a while we taxied down the main runway in convoy - an Easyjet, then a Monarch, then us with a Jet2 behind and went past the stand we had come from and then took off from the opposite end. Was a rocky old flight back over to Dublin!

alexsupra

16th Aug 2012, 19:42

something for the ground staff at MAN you lot will like this!

Emirates & PIA 777's @ Manchester UK. August 2012 - YouTube:8

manairporspotter

17th Aug 2012, 11:59

8MODXVb7eu4

Caught this 23L yesterday:cool:

750XL

17th Aug 2012, 12:59

Maybe keep your vids to the spotters section of the forum :ok:

mizake the mizzen

17th Aug 2012, 14:32

flyBe to Cancel Manchester – Brussels Service from September 2012 (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/airlineroutenews/~3/y__RqT0G_9c/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email)
Posted: 16 Aug 2012 01:35 PM PDT
Update at 2040GMT 16AUG12
flyBe starting 10SEP12 is cancelling Manchester – Brussels service, where it currently operates up to 11 weekly service on board Dash8-Q400 aircraft.
Schedule until 09SEP12:

BE593 MAN0715 – 0945BRU DH4 x67
BE597 MAN1715 – 1945BRU DH4 x6
BE594 BRU1015 – 1050MAN DH4 x67
BE598 BRU2015 – 2050MAN DH4 x6

http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/airlineroutenews/~4/y__RqT0G_9c?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email

MKY661

17th Aug 2012, 22:11

Maybe keep your vids to the spotters section of the forum http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Created Thread:
http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/493259-manchester-airport-spotting.html#post7365474

JackRalston

18th Aug 2012, 16:55

Heard a rumour at work that Wizzair are to announce 14 weekly flights to/from MAN soon. Not sure which terminal they would fit into, T2 would be too busy first thing perhaps....speaking of a busy, could Jet2 be moving to T2? A few of their staff have been spotted in T2 quite a bit recently (not sure where they would fit in though).

easyflyer83

18th Aug 2012, 17:57

JackRalston

18th Aug 2012, 18:10

How could you tell they worked for Jet2?

Not too difficult to miss their staff, they are in a red uniform, usually a fleece and all have Jet2 lanyards.

CabinCrewe

18th Aug 2012, 18:11

Those fluorescent bright yellow Jet 2 vests are just too much of a giveaway.... ;)

easyflyer83

18th Aug 2012, 18:30

Exactly my point. If they were in uniform then it probably has nothing to do with any early stage view of moving terminals. You are much more likely to see suited and booted personnel.

JackRalston

18th Aug 2012, 19:08

I know what you are trying to say easyflyer83, they weren't in the uniform worn by a Passenger Service Agent but it was certainly a manager of some description within Jet2.

MKY661

18th Aug 2012, 21:56

The Wizzair Rumour sounds really interesting but I can't see Jet2 moving to T2. If they did T1 will be very quiet and I don't think there is any room in T2 since Monarch have moved there

JackRalston

19th Aug 2012, 13:44

MKY661

20th Aug 2012, 18:38

Indeed MKY661, I suspect Wizzair to go into T1 possibly T3. There isn't any room for Jet2 and if they even wanted to use Ground Level Check-in that would be difficult considering Monarch use them desks for all the charter

Unless someone like TOM want to move to T1 but obviously cannot see that happening. When I first heard about Monarch moving to T2 I did actually think that will there be enough room for them? I think Wizzair will be T1 as well.

Does anyone know what terminal Aeroflot will be in? Ive heard its T2.

pug

20th Aug 2012, 18:59

Read elsewhere that Virgin are soon to announce LHR to MAN service using A319's. I think it was mentioned in a Guardian article since removed due to a news embargo.

StoneyBridge Radar

20th Aug 2012, 19:05

Temporarily withdrawn story in today's Guardian online, apparently

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7656/virginatlantictolaunchl.png

Rgds

nigel osborne

20th Aug 2012, 20:09

Re the story suggesting VS to launch MAN-LHR flights.

Not sure it does much to promote more long haul VS flights from MAN if VS want to fly domestics from their to connect to their flts from LHR ? :(

Nigel

BKS Air Transport

20th Aug 2012, 20:25

Now if that happens can't help but feel it is Branson's response to the end of his rail franchise. Publicity + hoping for a bit of loyalty from his soon to be ex-passengers. May be able to offer some reasonable London fares compared to First on their peak trains, but pretty useless if your destination is the City.

Also, where would these slots come from, I thought BA were only obliged to give up ones for Edinburgh and Aberdeen.

pug

20th Aug 2012, 22:43

BKS, EDI and ABZ have been mentioned the link below..

http://m.mirror.co.uk/article?id=1271572/

PAXboy

21st Aug 2012, 01:52

Sounds like they are serious:
BBC News - Virgin Atlantic to fly between Heathrow and Manchester (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19324962)

(Just to re-open the can of worms) Perhaps SMB should have teamed up with SRB!

rowly6339

21st Aug 2012, 04:16

Just seen it all over BBC news 24

SM82

21st Aug 2012, 05:34

Wonder if they intend to use the existing fleet or bring in smaller more practicle aircraft
Reports suggest Airbus

cu nim

21st Aug 2012, 08:27

If I were Mag i would be very wary of Virgins Man Heathrow service.
What,as i think is very possible Virgin could pull the plug on their long range services from Man and feed the Heathrow hub. Why else would they use valuable slots at Heathrow.

JSCL

21st Aug 2012, 08:41

They won't pull the plug on MAN long haul. Most of it is leisure related and remains popular year-round. It's the other more lucrative destinations served at LHR by VS that the feed is needed for.

cu nim

21st Aug 2012, 08:48

I wouldnt trust them mark my words

easyflyer83

21st Aug 2012, 09:13

There is no way MAN-MCO/BGI/LAS are going anywhere.

chaps2011

21st Aug 2012, 09:32

Easyflyer83 totally agree unless they are going to put one of those A380 they arn`t getting on the 1st rotation of the day

Ian

ib26uk

21st Aug 2012, 09:38

I give it 6 months... :E:E:E:E

OltonPete

21st Aug 2012, 10:27

AIRFRANCE by CityJet Cancels Antwerp – Manchester Service from mid-Sep 2012 | Airline Route – Worldwide Airline Route Updates (http://airlineroute.net/2012/08/21/af-anrman-sep12cxld/)

Is this old news?

With the above site you never know if it is new or old but often whether it is even correct. They seem to jump the gun sometimes and it is just time changes.

Last week they announced MAN-BRU by flybe was ending.....nearly two months after it was off sale.

Certainly not bookable on the Cityjet website in October

Pete

Shed-on-a-Pole

21st Aug 2012, 11:05

Actually, VIR's new LHR-MAN service makes total sense. In the current tough economic climate the airline (like many others) is enduring painful losses. But it is very difficult for the company to pare back its exclusively long haul LHR portfolio without risking the loss of valuable slots under the 'use-them-or-lose-them' rules.

The launch of LHR-MAN using three daily slot pairs sourced from the in-house pool protects those slots for the long term. VIR can shelve three daily long-haul loss-makers until economic conditions improve. Those long haul services are much more expensive to run than a (very) short haul A319 service which at least contributes valuable traffic feed to support the bottom line in the meantime.

In due course, VIR have the flexibility to reallocate those slots to long haul services as economic conditions improve. And, if in the meantime VIR decides that LHR-MAN (and subsequent short haul ops) are sufficiently compelling, they can seek to build up their LHR slot portfolio to accommodate them for the long term. Certain routes (not MAN) should attract slot awards from the BAW pool under the terms of the BMI takeover.

Having a mix of short and long haul services does allow a carrier to limit losses under the LHR slot system by overweighting short flights (pseudo "slot-sitters") during tough times and long haul flights when the economy can support enhanced capacity. In the meantime, routes such as LHR-MAN provide feed to the long haul programme, contribute at least something to the bottom line, occupy must-use slots pending improved economic conditions, and protect the brand. It is a win-win for Virgin.

JackRalston

21st Aug 2012, 11:13

The VS MAN-LHR route will be operated from T3.

We will be flying out of Heathrow Terminal 1 and arriving into Manchester Terminal 3.

Mr A Tis

21st Aug 2012, 14:57

My understanding is that VS are taking back 3 slot pairs that are currently leased out. So, they are not reducing any current long haul services to accommodate shorthaul.
Oh yea, transfer T1 to T3 @ LHR to connect onwards ! great ! .. pass me the Emirates timetable...

Suzeman

21st Aug 2012, 15:09

Shed

Whilst I agree with you about the games that airlines play at LHR and other slot-constrained airports and that VS are using the slots for MAN from their own allocations, it would appear that they are hoping to get some of the "remedy" slots that BA are having to give up.

This comes from their press release
Sir Richard Branson’s airline is going to apply for all of the remedy slots being awarded by the European Commission following the IAG takeover of bmi, but is using some of its existing slots to service the Manchester to London route. The airline believes competition on this route has been neglected in the remedy process and aims to provide choice for the 650,000 passengers who travel between the two cities.

Manchester | Virgin Atlantic (http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/gb/en/footer/media-centre/press-releases/manchester.html)

VS are bidding for 12 pairs of slots - see here
Virgin Atlantic takes on BA on UK routes - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/9488401/Virgin-Atlantic-takes-on-BA-on-UK-routes.html)

and as I understand it hope to operate some LHR-Scotland flights, also starting in Spring 2013.

Suzeman

MKY661

21st Aug 2012, 15:58

The VS MAN-LHR route will be operated from T3.

So looks like Virgin will be one of the only airlines at MAN to use two terminals, unless of course they move their International operations to T3 but I highly doubt that.

GEB74

21st Aug 2012, 19:40

Antwerp
AIRFRANCE by CityJet Cancels Antwerp – Manchester Service from mid-Sep 2012 | Airline Route – Worldwide Airline Route Updates (http://airlineroute.net/2012/08/21/af-anrman-sep12cxld/)

Is this old news?

With the above site you never know if it is new or old but often whether it is even correct. They seem to jump the gun sometimes and it is just time changes.

Last week they announced MAN-BRU by flybe was ending.....nearly two months after it was off sale.

Certainly not bookable on the Cityjet website in October

Pete

Bloody shame that. Antwerp airport is great. Fokker pulls up right outside (dead) terminal door. Steps drop down. 50ft walk to immigration. 2 officers waiting there doing nowt. 80ft walk to front door of airport. Line of taxi's waiting. Been in a taxi within 90 seconds of popping my head through the aircrafts door before:ok:
Reality was that loads when i've been on it have been gash. 10 and 12 passengers last 2 flights.
Back to Schipol / Brussels:ugh:

Skipness One Echo

21st Aug 2012, 20:30

Actually, VIR's new LHR-MAN service makes total sense
Actually here's what it really means. Virgin Atlantic will never base B787s at MAN to fly long haul. THAT's the key take out. You can bet M.A.G. were talking to VS about basing some of those shiny new B787s to build on the success of existing leisure routes from T3. This new strategy means loudly and clearly that any LHR route, is unlikely to be duplicated from MAN as the focus will be on feeding the London end through the A319 operation.

So MAN may get an uplift in passengers domestically, but exisiting hopes that VS might grow the operation beyond sun routes now look hopeless, and that's a shame.

Having said that, if it does work out then fair play to them for giving it a go.

roverman

21st Aug 2012, 21:49

Track record of UK Independents or 'second force' carriers as they were once known, on Manchester -London routes.

BCAL (Gatwick) - bought out by BA in 1988
Dan Air ( Heathrow and Gatwick) - bought out by BA in 1991
bmi (Heathrow) - bought out by BA in 2012
Virgin Atlantic (Heathrow) - ??

Shed-on-a-Pole

21st Aug 2012, 22:39

Hi Skipness -

I actually agree with you completely on this. But I would have been amazed to see VIR launch long-haul business routes from MAN under any foreseeable scenario; it has never really looked likely. I prefer to post what I (sadly) expect to see happen rather than what I would dearly like to see happen. No argument from me on this occasion!

Regards, Shed.

RoyHudd

21st Aug 2012, 23:25

Jet 2 operated from MAN-LGW not so long ago. I guess they packed in because of losses on the route in competition with BA.

Fairdealfrank

21st Aug 2012, 23:44

Quote: "(Just to re-open the can of worms) Perhaps SMB should have teamed up with SRB!"

Yes! Doesn't that seem a long time ago now! Ego clash wasn't it?

Quote: "My understanding is that VS are taking back 3 slot pairs that are currently leased out. So, they are not reducing any current long haul services to accommodate shorthaul.
Oh yea, transfer T1 to T3 @ LHR to connect onwards ! great ! .. pass me the Emirates timetable... "

Would be an easier version of BA's LHR1-LHR4 transfer, but suspect this has much to do with VS's move to the new LHR2.

Quote: "So looks like Virgin will be one of the only airlines at MAN to use two terminals, unless of course they move their International operations to T3 but I highly doubt that."

VS lonhaul at Ringway is point to point bucket and spade, BGI, MCO, etc. so it doesn't matter (from a pax point of view) if they're in 2 terminals. From a company duplication point of view, it may be a different matter.

Quote: "This comes from their press release
Sir Richard Branson’s airline is going to apply for all of the remedy slots being awarded by the European Commission following the IAG takeover of bmi, but is using some of its existing slots to service the Manchester to London route. The airline believes competition on this route has been neglected in the remedy process and aims to provide choice for the 650,000 passengers who travel between the two cities."

Could apply to GLA as well as MAN.

avturboy

21st Aug 2012, 23:51

Jet 2 operated from MAN-LGW not so long ago. I guess they packed in because of losses on the route in competition with BA.

That was useful for doing a days work at LGW, now I drive (from Stockport)!

The train is a ridiculous price and 4 trains/3 connection, no discounts on Virgin if you want to travel early in the morning.

Flying is expensive and return flights LGW-MAN are poor, latest is around 4pm departure which is too early if you have to do a days work at LGW.:ugh:

PAPAROMA

22nd Aug 2012, 15:18

Jet2 launch MAH and CFU from MAN in competition with MON from S13.

manairporspotter

23rd Aug 2012, 00:10

rzo2kSWF-pM

Caught this tonight... hope you all enjoy

easyflyer83

23rd Aug 2012, 00:22

That was useful for doing a days work at LGW, now I drive (from Stockport)!

The train is a ridiculous price and 4 trains/3 connection, no discounts on Virgin if you want to travel early in the morning.

Flying is expensive and return flights LGW-MAN are poor, latest is around 4pm departure which is too early if you have to do a days work at LGW

I used the Jet2 LGW service to attend my interview for GB Airways.

MAN-LGW is just about included in the "4 hour or under by surface transport" policy at Easyjet however the commercial manager together with the guy who deals with the corportate travel contracts really wants to see MAN-LGW on the network and are pushing for it.

easyflyer83

23rd Aug 2012, 00:23

Jet2 launch MAH and CFU from MAN in competition with MON from S13.

Also in competition with the 3 times weekly EZY.

TartinTon

23rd Aug 2012, 07:03

....and the 4 x weekly ZB....could be interesting....

JSCL

23rd Aug 2012, 07:48

In other, more interesting news, MAG looks to be a sound investment:

Manchester Airports Group profits soar 26 per cent to £65.5m | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk (http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/business/s/1586905_manchester-airports-group-profits-soar-26-per-cent-to-655m)

However, I suggest it's the rise before the fall. Stansted is NOT a good buy.

mybrico

23rd Aug 2012, 10:42

are the numbers right in thats article - i think not!

Passenger numbers were back up to 2010 levels, at 24 million, an increase of 6.7 per cent after they fell to 22.5m in 2010/11.

pwalhx

23rd Aug 2012, 11:03

Perhaps be a little mor specific which figures you think are incorrect.

chaps2011

23rd Aug 2012, 11:18

I think you will find those figures are for the group not MAN on it`s own

Ian

clareview

23rd Aug 2012, 19:26

Manx or BA Connect (I think before Eestern got the J41s and before Flybe took over BA Connect) did Man - London Stansted as I think did Air Berlin. Cityjects predecessor, VLM did Manchester - London City.

All gave up, probably due to lack of profit rather than being swallowed up by BA

Fairdealfrank

23rd Aug 2012, 20:26

Quote: "Airlines that operated Man-London
Manx or BA Connect (I think before Eestern got the J41s and before Flybe took over BA Connect) did Man - London Stansted as I think did Air Berlin. Cityjects predecessor, VLM did Manchester - London City.

All gave up, probably due to lack of profit rather than being swallowed up by BA"

Exactly, lack of profit, nothing to do with BA.

MAN-LCY would have faced competition from the railways and MAN-STN would be limited by the fact that STN is out of the way and not convenient for most.

Both the above were point-to-point only.

MAN-LHR (BA and BD) has the advantage of being both point-to-point and feeder routes for longhaul at one of the world's biggest hubs.

Clearly operating at LHR has huge advantages, but it is also the most expensive (airport charges, slot acquisition costs, etc.).