MANCHESTER - 7

[chiglet]

Being a B.O.F. I remember when "Apron" stuffed their "pre allocated" Stand Sheets under the Tower door two to three days in advance....:{

[MAN OPS]

Qatar 777 will arrive Sunday morning as QR041/042. We were advised 21st as aircraft leaves DOH on 21st and arrives at MAN on 22nd. Aircraft reg will be A7BBC.

777 will also operate QR041/042 service on 25th Nov.

Upgraded due to Hajj

[ETOPS]

Upgraded due to Hajj

A pilgrimage to Manchester - shows class :ok:

[Ian Brooks]

ETOPS I like that onehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif

Ian B

[Whitehatter]

Three times round the Town Hall and then a visit to the sacred well of Hydes Brewery

[ACCMan]

Seems to me that his space could be better utilised by, and SHOULD be used by.... Airfield Control (formerly Apron Control). They (AC) now occupy an office in the decrepit old Tower Block with NO windows. They cant even SEE the apron they are meant to be controlling! Absolute madness if you ask me! I don't see why MAPLC just doesn't get rid of the airplane side of the airport all together and run the place as one big friggin mall, because that's what it is! Nothing more than an extension to the Trafford Centre!

Trash Hauler
Airfield Control do have windows and they face south west from the referbished 6th Floor of the Tower Block. The old Ops Tower was built when there was only one terminal and so they didn't have views of the the 50s (T3) and T2 was just a line of tails; unable to see which stand an aircraft was on (MARS stands).

Now they're part of an intergated Control Centre (like real airports have; LHR MAD MUC etc) and have enhansed CCTV coverage of all stands.

Regards,
ACCMan

[ZOOKER]

"enhansed(?) CCTV coverage of all stands".
And how much CO2 does that produce ACCMan?
Surely at an 'environmentally-responsible' airport like Manchester, a window is cheaper to look through than a CCTV camera is to operate?

[rkenyon]

And how much CO2 does that produce ACCMan?
Surely at an 'environmentally-responsible' airport like Manchester, a window is cheaper to look through than a CCTV camera is to operate?


Jeez.... CO2 from CCTV?

[TURIN]

Jeez.... CO2 from CCTV?

Carbon Capture TeleVision anyone?:}

[Betablockeruk]

I've just expelled more CO2 by laughing out loud

[jerboy]

a window is cheaper to look through

And which window would you propose they looked through to give them the view they need of each stand?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

ZOOKER ... Please tell me your posting was intended as a joke? If not, I suggest that you spend an hour studying the excellent climatedepot.com website. This will soon disabuse you of the wilder propaganda put about by climate extremists and tax-raising politicians. And it may just save you from looking so silly ever again.

Good luck. SHED.

[Code 100]

Perhaps they are like the Play School windows - you can see anything through them!

[ZOOKER]

SHED,
loving your work!
As you most kindly suggested, I have just checked out the 'Climatedepot.com' website, and sadly, "excellent" is not the adjective I would use to describe it. :}
In aviation, one of the most accurate pieces of equipment in general use is 'The Mk.1 Eyeball'.
Surely a better plan would be to move Apron Control to the existing ATC VCR when ATC move to the new tower.
Sorry, I forgot, the new tower has been shelved while MAG spent £50m on developing T1 into a rival to Dumplington market, (AKA The Trafford Centre).
Now there's a SHEDload of CO2 for you! :E

[ACCMan]

ZOOKER

Good point about the need for a new control tower, however if it ever happens the current VCR would be retained as a stand-by.

Unlike ATC Ground, Apron (Airfield) Control need to see each and every stand to ensure safe allocation. Nowhere on the airport can achieve this so even if they were relocated into the current VCR, they would still need CCTV for all of T2, T3 50s, B Pier evens and stands 22/31/32.

Sorry about your CO2; CCTV is a bi-product of operating a safe airport.

Regards,
ACCMan

[horatio_b]

Expansion of airport World Freight Terminal approved - Crain's Manchester Business (http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/article/20091123/FREE/911239991/1005)

[Code 100]

Excellent news for MAN and for jobs.

Hope the newt lovers don't demand an enquiry!

When is the estimated completion date?

[Betablockeruk]

For "hanger" read "unit".

All application docs can be found on manchester.gov.uk planning portal.

ref 086879/FO/2008/S2

[ZOOKER]

"Excellent news for MAN and for jobs"
Jobs for whom?
Will this new facility mainly be used for exporting quality British-built products?

[Code 100]

ZOOKER,

Why would we want to make quality goods in Britain - it would produce too much of your nasty C02!!!!:=

[MUFC_fan]

I assume it is an expansion? If so, then it will not only guarantee jobs at the facility but hopefully open up new vacancies.

[Code 100]

The Crain's report says a "new 200,000 sq ft depot", but as betablockeruk states, it will be a 'unit', not a hanger, so probably it will be similar to industrial-style warehousing.

If so, that would represent a square building about 450ft x 450ft. Is that large or small in cargo terms?

[Suzeman]

See below the MEN article on the new bar in the old Ops Tower which gives a bit more detail.

There seems to be an inference that it will be available to G-public - quotes from the article are "compete with any of Manchester’s top leisure destinations" and "We are looking to increase the range of audiences we cater for here at Manchester, and we are hoping this becomes a venue to rival some of the city centre’s most sophisticated venues.

But if I am right there is no way this can be connected to landside unless some connections are built above the T1 roof?

Perhaps just sloppy reporting. Note the cr*p at the bottom about the Ops Tower being built in 1962 - it wasn't - the 1962 building is the one with the current VCR at the top. And methinks he or she - as the author remains anonymous - hasn't done any research as the new structure has yet (if ever) to be built......:ugh:

Anyway, I suggest the new bar should be called Zooker's - a nice catchy name. Why? Well no doubt fizzy beer will be available which uses lots of additional CO2 and of course there will be CCTVs to monitor proceedings.:ok:

Cheers
Suzeman

Manchester Airport control tower to be the city's latest hot venue

November 17,

MANCHESTER Airport is seeking partners to develop a world first - a bar or restaurant in an aircraft control tower.

Bosses are looking to create an upmarket, glamorous space that can compete with any of Manchester’s top leisure destinations. The decommissioned five- storey tower is part of Terminal One, which was relaunched in the summer after a £50m, two- year redevelopment and now handles more than nine million travellers a year. The bar or restaurant would be located on the 110 sq m top floor, which offfers 360 degree views across the airfield and the Cheshire countryside.

It would have space for up to 100 diners and would be accessible via a reception area which could also feature a shopping zone. Airport Commercial director Andrew Harrison said: “We are looking to increase the range of audiences we cater for here at Manchester, and we are hoping this becomes a venue to rival some of the city centre’s most sophisticated venues.

“Our intention is to produce an experience that far exceeds all current expectations of a great bar, as well as being an opportunity for a cutting edge operator to demonstrate real flair.

“We have already had expressions of interest and want to work with the right people to really deliver a successful product for our passengers at Manchester.”

The open plan, hexagon shaped venue would be served by a lift running up the central core of the building. The redundant tower was built in 1962 and has since been superceded by by a new £8m, 50 metre operation.
Retail property specialist Milligan Retail has been chosen to help select the winning tender.

[ZOOKER]

Suzeman,
Top post. Loving your work.
This MEN article is, by and large, total w*nk.
If this building was an "aircraft control tower", the logical business-partner would be NATS. (A World Leader in Air Traffic Management).
It is, sadly, NOT a control tower.
It is/was a replacement for the green fish-tank, half-way along pier Bravo.
Five floors it may be. but most are unusable as leisure space.
I love the bit about "producing an experience'.
Why does everything have to be a bloody experience?
Let's add some 'challenges and solutions too!
Regarding the "360 degree views of the airfield and the Cheshire countryside", the sector from approximately 010 to 130 degrees is masked by the control tower building, (CTB), where the real Air Traffic Controllers actually work. So, views of the Kinder-Scout plateau and Bleaklow Hill are right out,
As for your suggested name, "ZOOKER'S", - well, the name say's it all! :ok:

P.S. Just read the original MEN article.
What the hell is a "shopping zone"? :}:}

[EGCC4284]

redundant tower

Thats funny. Those who worked in there were told 4 years ago they were having to move as it was wanted to be turn into a bar

[Momentary Lapse]

The Ops Tower was built as part of the IDLEX extension in, I think, the 1970s or even early 80s.

Apart from the apron controllers, it was often used by Ops3 ADMs etc. to get a bird's eye view of most of the airfield. Ideal for watching clouds roll in, diversions round emergency t/way repairs, snow clearance, follow mes, unusual a/c movements, etc. So now they're using Level 13 of MSCP 1 from what I hear lol.

Re the WFT question, the BA cargo shed is around 80,000sq ft, so a shed of 200,000 sq ft is pretty big for MAN, though not big compared to some of the new big sheds you see at the side of motorways these days.

[Adola69]

:cool: I wonder if this new "Unit" on completion, will have the words Fed Ex emblazoned across it ?
I do hope so, as not only would that be a very nice thing to have, it would make sure that the finished article would not look like the present B&Q finished sheds we have now!
As for the group who are against any further expansion of Manchester Airport as it would cause more CO2 polution, I'd like to place my own Carbon Footprint right up their ar*e!!

Now where's my toasting fork? There's nothing like a few onions and a bit of melted cheese drizzled across a finely barbecued Great Crested Newt! They are truly scrummy, but like all good things they must come to an end! Will I miss them - emmm let me think ------- naw:E

Now I hear that the 23R ILS will be radiating again for use on Wednesday so get ready for the resumption of noise you Stockporters!:ok:

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

PPRuNe contributor 'Flightrider' (writing on the BMI thread) reports that BMI's recently announced LHR-GVA schedule in association with sister-company Swiss will be launched using slots currently deployed on the LHR-MAN route. More bad news on the way for MAN if this is confirmed.

SHED.

P.S. Does anybody know why the site software has converted my "BMI MAN-LHR" title from capital letters to small letters? Have tried to correct it back to capitals, but alas to no avail ...

[Going loco]

With the amount of noise this thread has generated in the past about MAN-LHR, I would have thought the spotter / cheerleader types would be over the moon about reductions in MAN-LHR services.

[Ian Brooks]

If judging by the pax numbers that have been banded around keeping the service is
not the best thing to do, the rail connections to the south east have killed the point to point traffic which only leaves connecting traffic most of which can connect on Star Alliance flights ex MAN anyway.

Ian B

[Scottie Dog]

easyJet are to start Manchester/Helsinki from 8th February. Dep 1625 return Arr 2245, Mon, Wed, Frid. Sun.

Regards

Scottie Dog

[ZOOKER]

Adola,
people from Stockport are called 'Stopfordians', (e.g. Norman Beaker). The Guitar Don't Lie.:ok:
I have forwarded your 'Newt Recipe' to Delia Smith, who assures me it will feature in 'Frugal Food Volume 2' :}

[Seljuk22]

Just looked at EZY flights out of MAN:

ALC increase from 4 weekly to 6 weekly (10th Feb)
ATH restart 3 weekly (10th Feb)
CPH increase from 4 weekly to 6 weekly (10th Feb)
PFO increase from 6 weekly to daily (11th Feb)
TFS from 5 weekly to daily (8th Feb)

Together with HEL (4 weekly) 14 additional weekly flights.

[JackRalston]

Seems to be very positive news coming out regarding easyJet. I flew with them in July of this year when I went to TFS, great service and all I can do is reward them with high appraisal. Ryanair are you listening?

[Suzeman]

Regarding the "360 degree views of the airfield and the Cheshire countryside", the sector from approximately 010 to 130 degrees is masked by the control tower building, (CTB), where the real Air Traffic Controllers actually work. So, views of the Kinder-Scout plateau and Bleaklow Hill are right out,


Ah but what a view in the 010-130 sector! Air conditioning units atop T1 And views of all the hard working staff in the offices on the West side of the Tower - including the new Apron control? You will be able to wave to them as you sip your cocktail in the trendy bar and I'm sure they will wave back!!


Another thing from the article

It would have space for up to 100 diners


If 10 people were up in the top when it was the Ops Room it was a squeeze. Wonder how they will do it and will the fire people agree with only one starcase? Maybe they will install a helter-skelter like fire escape as the tower in Sydney. Rides could be offered on it to generate revenue...

Suzeman

[Code 100]

Surely the view won't matter if Zookers Bistro Bar serves Adola's BBQ Newt Platter to Stopfordians like me!

Perhaps we can see the extended World Freight Terminal instead.

[roverman]

Hear what comfortable words the Lord ATC saith:

.".........report established on the Localiser, descend with the Glide Path, you are cleared for an ILS Approach to Runway 23R".

All being well tomorrow morning some lucky person will be the first for a long time to hear those comforting words. Welcome back to Precision Approaches!

[RVF750]

Sorry, remind me, I've forgotten what they are now. IOM should get it's GS back sometime late December:} What will we do to practice for the sim then?

[ZOOKER]

For those who are still undecided: -
'BAR 44'* would also be a good name for the 'MAG Apron Control Experience',
'ZOOKER'S' sounds a bit similar to 'Decker's', an eating establishment adjacent to the M60 orbital motorway.
*44 is of course, the formula weight of CO2. :E

[RoyHudd]

Enough already.

[pwalhx]

Surely it can't be possible Easyjet are adding flights, rapidman told us they were unhappy with Manchester and we should all be prepared to eat our words about any expansion by them at Manchester. Or am I incorrect

[OltonPete]

Just a short reduction for the winter period from daily to 5 weekly.

This was from another site but I checked the DL website and the
last Wed departure is 6/1/10 and Monday 11/1/10 for a couple
of months.

All seems back to daily from the summer schedule.

On the positive side it appears that CO will go back to double daily by mid-March - certainly two flights bookable 11/3/10

Pete

[MUFC_fan]

I'm very surprised ATL does so well during the winter - it is definitely a Florida stop during the summer and don't DL know it!

If they could upgrade it to a 777 once again, then I think they would.

[Suzeman]

Surely it can't be possible Easyjet are adding flights, rapidman told us they were unhappy with Manchester and we should all be prepared to eat our words about any expansion by them at Manchester. Or am I incorrect


pwalhx

You are incorrect in one fact - I believe the name you should be referring to is rapidman47 not plain old rapidman

Perhaps he will now eat his words in our new tower restaurant? :)

Suzeman

[viscount702]

EZY says HEL starts 28 March. It is nonetheless bookable from Feb

As has been rumoured 4th A/C would seem to arrive to fit in with this and arrive in Feb. Frequency on some other routes also increased. will new A/C be 320 or 319

During early summer the days and frequency of some flights vary. By July if not earlier frequency on AGP TFS and others have dropped again. MUC also increased to 6 a week by July.

Is a fifth A/C to arrive if so when because by July 5 A/C are needed on Mon, Tues Thurs and Sat afternoons. Will these flights be by based A/C or will they position in because they will not be W pattern.

The GVA isn't affected by above because this remains throughout a W pattern from LPL

[Flightrider]

easyJet Manchester operation for S10 looks like five based aircraft - 2 x A319, 3 x A320. In addition to today's announcement of Helsinki, there is a daily Zurich and 4 x weekly Mahon still to appear plus minor frequency increases versus last summer on other routes.

[AndyH52]

Have the recent announcements by EZY done anything to expand MAN's route network, or just are they just further examples of the airport attracting a Lo-Co onto an existing route to compete with a full service carrier...?

[parky747]

Does EZY A320's have the legs to reach SSH, if so anyone think they might give it a go from MAN?

Also MAD may be a good route for EZY at MAN, as this is currently unserved at MAN?

[tigermike]

AndyH52

It looks to me that Easy have taken the CAA monthly stats and decided to open up city routes to destinations that have healthy passenger numbers and only one operator ie Copenhagen, Helsinki and Munich.

Its probably a good way to do it as easy will undercut the fares no doubt.
Whether this is good for Manchester airport or SAS and Finnair is debatable.

[roverman]

New entrants on established routes are welcome if they stimulate traffic, but I am a little concerned about the effect of EZY going head-to-head on a thin route like Helsinki and risking forcing the flag carrier off it. Especially when there are other routes crying out for a service. I would say it's a pressing need for MAN to get service re-established to some high profile EU cities to where there are currently, and unaccountably, no direct flights. Madrid and Berlin both being examples which were served by flag carriers for many years. The economy and profile of Manchester (the City of) can hardly be helped by lacking direct links to EU capitals, however good the airport's bucket-and-spade offerings are.

[1station]

ILS is now up and running, all be it CAT 1. Lets start the 300hrs burn time before CAT 3 returns :ok:

[MancRy]

5 aircraft are required for the Summer operations. As someone pointed out, on certain days per the current released schedule, 5 aircraft are needed to cover the PM wave of flights. None of these flights appear to be W patterns indicating based a/c operation. EDIT: With HEL this means that the PM bank of flights require 5 aircraft every day.

According to some of my colleagues on the Flightdeck, the U2 320's can just about make SSH and this route has been rumoured for a while but still hasn't materialised. Looking at the current schedule, there is now no basis for SSH to be launched without a 6th aircraft. I guess there is always a possibility for next Winter.

Other rumours around the base include.....

Rome... Could be launched and operated by FCO
LCA..... Looking at the schedule, unlikely.

[mickyman]

Its Easy-er to challenge a 'flag-carrier' on an existing route
than to start a new route from scratch.Why spend time and money building up a demand when you can piggyback it!Easyjet will 'Ryanair'
any route it likes because its the nature of the low-cost business
plan.
How are the routes doing that Easy currently operate (at MAN)
for the airlines that have been established on those routes since
the year dot?Are they generating more volumn?

Easyjet are Ryanair without MOL.

MM

[Mouser]

Other rumours around the base include.....

Rome... Could be launched and operated by FCO
LCA..... Looking at the schedule, unlikely.

Another rumour I was privy to was a North African destination.

[MUFC_fan]

There will always be many rumours with U2, I think it is more the amount of aircraft they can get into MAN.

It is so under served by an large LCC on a serious scale its like a boy in a sweet shop.

People say Ryanair are powerful but when you think that U2 are major players in some of Europe's largest airports, including being the largest at both LGW and MXP, it really is a credit to them.

When MOL pulled his routes out of MAN he basically said to U2 - the airport is yours. Yes LPL is key to the network of U2 and they have made huge sums from the airfield but MAN has so much potential that is currently untapped, I just hope they can see this and take advantage!

Berlin, Madrid, Warsaw and Krakow would be nice additions to the network.

[MancRy]

Mickyman... that is a somewhat unfair allegation. Easyjet, to their credit, have successfully built up routes on their own merit. LPL-AMS, BRS-BCN, NCL-CIA to name but a few. They operate out of regional airports offering flights to destinations that those airports could only dream about. They have made flying more accessible and affordable. In other words, on many routes, they have increased volume.

On key routes such as LON-CDG, as a relatively new airline, they were always going to be the "newcomer" on such routes but their very presence has made fares much more competitive. Furthermore, it makes good business sense to exploit busy/lucrative markets....it's business. With that in mind whilst I do believe that MAN should have and could sustain SXF, MAD etc a business will go where the most money can be made. Easyjet does not have an obligation to ensure MAN has a flawless route network. That is the airports problem so to speak.

As an MAN enthusiast, I too want MAD and SXF etc to return to our departure boards and think it is a dying shame that they disappeared in the first place. However you also have to look at it from oure business logic. That said, I am confident that eventually these destinations will return, very possibly courtesy of U2, if not another carrier.

[mickyman]

Mancry

I take on board what you have written and agree with
a fair amount - but would also ask (in the case of Gatwick)
have other airlines been pushed off routes by Easy?
Has the overall volume increased - in these recessionary
times ?What totally new destinations have they added to the
airports network?
Its business - I agree - but change the name to Ryanair and
all hell brakes loose!

MM

[MUFC_fan]

Its business - I agree - but change the name to Ryanair and
all hell brakes loose!


You've summed this forum up in one sentence. U2 are seen as the 'good guys' making prices more competitive. Ryanair are seen as the 'bad guys' wrecking competition.

MancRy - some very good comments which I agree with.

[MancRy]

But in the case of LGW do you not agree that at the same time BA were pulling/changing routes left right and centre. As you know, BA LGW has since placed a large emphasis on leisure routes but they still compete with EZY on ALC etc etc. It just so happens that these routes are the type of route that BA don't want to use valuable LHR slots on. So, in other words if it wasn't for EZY could we still expect to see routes like CDG, AMS by BA at LGW? Generally speaking i don't think we would.

Change the name to Ryanair and all hell breaks loose? Maybe. Change the name from Easyjet to BA and oh praise the lord, the saviour has landed?

[AirLCY]

BA still fly to AMS from LGW

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Two comments tonight:

BMI: Reports from the BMI thread suggest that MAN-LHR is reprieved (for now!). Seven aircraft are to leave the fleet, including two of the A330's which left sunny Manchester for the Heathrow base afew months ago. One of the routes facing the axe is LHR-TLV on which some of the A330 capacity had been deployed. Further details have been posted on the BMI thread.

EasyJet: Can anybody comment on the *rumour* that certain destinations are "embargoed" from MAN as part of EZY's operating agreement with Liverpool Airport? If routes such as Madrid and Amsterdam were on a "protected" list it would explain some of the interesting route choices at the MAN base. If this is total rubbish then so be it, but the notion does feature in gossip around Ringway. Is anybody on here at liberty to confirm / deny?

SHED.

Hmmm ... that software really doesn't like capital letters in the title line, does it?

[MUFC_fan]

EasyJet: Can anybody comment on the *rumour* that certain destinations are "embargoed" from MAN as part of EZY's operating agreement with Liverpool Airport? If routes such as Madrid and Amsterdam were on a "protected" list it would explain some of the interesting route choices at the MAN base. If this is total rubbish then so be it, but the notion does feature in gossip around Ringway. Is anybody on here at liberty to confirm / deny?


I would guess as far as it could possible go is a gentleman's agreement as it would be against both UK and EU laws for the companies to sign a 'pact' concerning routes from the North West.

I think it is more of the former and also that they don't want to affect what is clearly a very good base for easyJet at Liverpool.

[Mister Geezer]

Very interesting to see easyJet adding ZRH to their network from MAN.

I used to be a regular (nearly every week!) with Swiss MAN-ZRH-MAN and whilst the loads were often very good, the bulk of the pax are connecting at ZRH.

[STATSMAN]

Same with HEL many passengers connecting with Finnair long haul network.

STATSMAN

[AndyH52]

Very interesting to see easyJet adding ZRH to their network from MAN.
As yet EZY haven't added ZRH to their Manchester network and if they do there's no guarantee it will be daily - non of their other recent European additions from MAN have been.

As for not duplicating certain routes between MAN and LPL my take is that the region can only sustain demand for the current level of frequencies on certain routes (let's face it, RYR couldn't find sufficient pax to keep LPL - MAD going against EZY). EZY is unlikely to risk the health and profitability of these routes by adding them from MAN as well. MAN may well get ZRH, as well as Milan, Rome and Venice from EZY and possibly Palma and Faro where there is a large existing Manchester market to eat into, but again there is no guarantee these will be daily services...

[MAN OPS]

The last Saudia flight to man will be 28th Dec 09.

[RoyHudd]

Good riddance

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Roy Hudd -

Please elaborate. I flew with Saudia from MAN last year and considered them excellent. What have they done to upset you?

SHED.

[Ringwayman]

But I've seen elsewhere that SV's withdrawal is only a temporary thing and the service will be resumed late March or April?

[Hamburg 2K8]

My dad's flying to Goa on Monarch this afternoon, 16.15 is departure time at the moment, although this has changed more than once.
Will this be operated by a A300 or A330?

Thanks for a prompt reply.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Will be on A330.

[Hamburg 2K8]

Thanks for the reply.

[RoyHudd]

Travelling as crew positioning with this airline has been an unpleasant experience, as has the entry and exit through JED. The Saudis have seemed an arrogant and superior lot to me, and I am not alone in this viewpoint.

However, it is sad if inevitable to see MAN losing so much business.

[wiccan]

Well with the ILS being back on 23R, it means that the LHR Shuttles can "safely" land on 23R:ok:
The other day, a BAW Shuttle asked for an ILS approach to 05L....
"because he could NOT accept a VOR/DME approach to 23R"
Makes you wonder...:hmm:
bb

[Mr R Sole]

As some have predicted, it was announced today that easyJet add Sharm El Sheikh to their network from Manchester next summer... however you can't book it just yet! ;)

[RoyHudd]

Fascinating information, that.

[EZYA319]

Funny that cus can't see any news for it anywhere????and a certain base just up the road has been told that they are getting this route.

[easyJet A321]

For the Sharm route I personally think it would be better to open it from Liverpool rather than Manchester due to the Manchester market being rather saturated with the route already whereas Liverpool has none. Maybe more routes like that from Liverpool would make more money than from Manchester due to no competition e.g. Paphos etc. If this was to happen I'd guess another A320 on the way to LPL.

I would still like to see Manchester have a very large presence at Manchester but do think those routes would be better off at LPL. Are there any other routes this year to be released from MAN? I hope so!!

[johnnychips]

I would still like to see Manchester have a very large presence at Manchester

Eh?

[Suzeman]

As for not duplicating certain routes between MAN and LPL my take is that the region can only sustain demand for the current level of frequencies on certain routes

Andy

Whilst you are quite correct, it MAY be that there is still some agreement between U2 and the airports which prevents them not only duplicating routes from each airport but which ones go from where. It might be that some of U2s current LPL services would be better operated from MAN and vv but there is some sort of agreement on what goes from where. But hey, who knows?

There were several "false starts" before U2 set up at MAN and it was rumoured that this was because U2 & LPL had some exclusion clause about ops from MAN. I seem to remember hearing that at one stage it was going to court, but in the end it didn't and the MAN ops eventually started. But maybe this is just a rumour and we will never know for sure.

Suzeman

[StoneyBridge Radar]

It's all irrelevant anyway; weren't we told with 100% certainty that EZY were "pulling the plug" on MAN? :E :} :ugh:

[MancRy]

As said before..... when EZY tookover GT they opened MAN with a "no promises" pledge. That situation has now changed and the airline is more than happy with MAN's performance. This has also been signalled by the launch of longer distance routes elsewhere across the network. i.e LTN-PFO. Also, the onboard revenue made by easyjet ex MAN makes the base one of the best performing in that respect.

MAN-SSH isn't saturated and LPL has a very defined catchment area.

[Suzeman]

It's all irrelevant anyway; weren't we told with 100% certainty that EZY were "pulling the plug" on MAN? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif :ugh:


Sorry Mr StoneyBridge - apologies for my earlier post. I don't know why I had forgotten that post that told us U2 were doomed at MAN.... :ooh:

Must be old age. I'll go and lie down now

Suzeman

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Reply #1809

Seems like an eternity ago.... ;)

[TechProblem]

Re MAN-SSH, there are alot of deparutures to SSH from MAN, but I don't think any of them are sch'd service's, unless Jet2 operate one.
All depends on how often the flight departs throughtout the week.....

*Edit*
Jet2 do operate one as of Februray every Saturday.

TP

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

FYI Jet2 is weekly currently on Saturdays, & go up to twice weekly for S10.

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

With the wind as it is, the aircraft are currently operating on 05.

Does this affect the time when 23R ILS can go back to CAT III?

I believe it was 350 hours service (roughly 2 weeks continous service) on CAT I before CAT III could be re-introduced... For every hour that the aircraft are using 05, does that need to be added on to that 350 hours from last Wednesday?

[MUFC_fan]

The charters also sell a number of seats on flight only.


For the Sharm route I personally think it would be better to open it from Liverpool rather than Manchester due to the Manchester market being rather saturated with the route already whereas Liverpool has none.


The MAN-SSH route is far from saturated! The airlines are using wide bodied aircraft and they are still flying full year round - simply because it is priced fantastically and it is much cheaper than dealing with the Euro.

Further distance (trust me, people think flying further makes the holiday seem more expensive!), better weather, cheaper prices, year round sun - win, win, win, win.

Wasn't it the year round sun that made the Canaries what they are today?

Also, LPL, as mentioned earlier, has nowhere near the demand that MAN has, whatever anyone says. U2 may seem to be adding to already proven routes, but we aren't in a time of prosperity - U2 have the customer base, price advantage so can compete with already settled carriers on routes already established instead of spending money on creating new traffic.

I'm sure MAN-SSH will be one of U2's most profitable routes on it's network - we northerners LOVE to spend money onboard!:ok: (If anyone saw the old Airline episodes with Brittania, they may have seen the rather camp, yet fantastic cabin service manager explain that southerners will try and save as much money on a flight home whereas us northerners want to spend spend spend - probably what makes MAN a favourite with the airlines!)

[Mouser]

Easyjet Manchester-Ivalo charter for chrimbo!

[AndyH52]

Also, LPL, as mentioned earlier, has nowhere near the demand that MAN has, whatever anyone says

Something of a sweeping statement don't you think MUFC Fan? Using that sort of 'logic' I could argue there is no demand between Manchester and Poland, Madrid, Rome and any other of the routes currently not served from Manchester, which obviously would be nonsense.

Time will tell how well any EZY service from the North West to SSH does - and which of it's North West bases they decide to operate the route from.

[MUFC_fan]

AndyH52,

I don't plan to turn this into another LPL v MAN dreary competition. It is a statement because it is a fact.


...there is no demand...


Where did I say there was no demand between LPL and SSH?:confused: All I said was that MAN has much more demand for SSH services than LPL:


...as mentioned earlier...


from


MAN-SSH isn't saturated and LPL has a very defined catchment area.


Please read carefully Andy before accusing me of ever daring to think that MAN is bigger than LPL in any way!:{

[AircraftOperations]

Believe EZY and BMI have arranged Christmas flights (in the run-up to Xmas) from the UK, including ex. Manchester.
Assume this is in addition to the normal charter operators who usually serve these seasonal routes.

[AndyH52]

It is a statement because it is a fact

MUFC Fan, the only FACT is that Manchester has more capacity than Liverpool on the SSH route. Demand has nothing to do with it as there is currently no option for those pax who would find LPL easier and would prefer to fly from there than MAN.

Please read carefully Andy before accusing me of ever daring to think that MAN is bigger than LPL in any way

You're free to think what you like, I didn't bring 'size' into this...

[MancRy]

MAN-IVL flights have been known about for months now.....they fit in with the existing MAN schedule.

With regards to the MAN/LPL argument..........I think what MUFC is trying to say is that MAN's catchment area is huge when compared to Liverpool's lucrative yet very defined catchment. With that in mind, such a new Easyjet leisure destination would have better chance out of MAN.

My bets are on SSH-MAN. The marketing PA's issued to crews last week state MAN-SSH. These were swiftly recalled but this is probably due to the fact that the route isn't ready for launch yet.

[Mouser]

The marketing PA's issued to crews last week state MAN-SSH
Mancry tell us the other destination on the marketing PA!

[MancRy]

I don't usually like to blab on here just in case anyone from work reads however the other destinations are widely rumoured here.

[AndyH52]

I think what MUFC is trying to say is that MAN's catchment area is huge when compared to Liverpool's lucrative yet very defined catchment.

MancRy - The myth of MAN having a "huge" catchment area compared with other airports including Liverpool was well and truly 'de-bunked' during the RWY2 public inquiry and again when White paper on the future of aviation in the UK was published in 2002, when it was demonstrated that the airport with the largest population catchment in the North was actually Sheffield!!!.

[Cymmon]

Unfortunately for Sheffield airport read Sheffield Business park, sold for £1.
Could have been a great City airport, too short a runway for long haul or Euro Charters.

[nigel.hayes007]

Isnt Sheffield part of the Manchester airport catchment area?

When i want to go to the far east or USA where else can i catch a flight from,cant se Robin Hood ever having such destinations .

KLM from DTV etc ,could but transfers with them usually mean me at destination bags in Amsterdam!

That leaves the likes of Liverpool, Leeds again transfers and taking a chance on Ryanair ,ie they wont fall out with the airport and jump ship the day before you need to catch a flight to europe for a connection flight

no sorry to say we are part of Manchesters catchment!

Forgot Newcastle but Emirates have no competition from Qatar,Ethiad,etc
like manchester and it usually shows in the rates.

Thats my view anyway from sub tropical Sheffield Hallam.

[MancRy]

Almost all of Yorkshire fall's in Manchester's catchment. I actually spent the first 18 years of my life in Barnsley and people seldom used LBA.....it was always MAN and perhaps EMA. SZD, when it was operating, served a niche at best.

I operate flights out of MAN (and sometimes LPL) and during the Scottish holidays certain routes are filled with, yes you guessed it, Scottish families. This demonstrates how further more the MAN catchment extends on a secondary basis.

[GavinC]

All of which emphasizes the importance of the train station and as many direct connections into MAN as possible from outlying areas. The 3rd platform helps but more could be done to improve services.

[mybrico]

Most people in the industry these days would accept the catchments are the same, then comes down to other factors where a route should operate from, below a quote from Oct 09 Airline Network News & Analysis:- “Surprisingly, neither Berlin nor Madrid are served from either Birmingham or Manchester though both destinations are served from Liverpool which shares much of Manchester’s catchment area” 7 years ago it was very different.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

'Catchment areas' are actually a very complex and subjective topic. There are different types of catchment areas and they are influenced by many varying factors. Firstly, catchment areas vary by destination: an individual customer residing in Middlesbrough may select MAN for a flight to Philadelphia, but NCL or LBA for a flight to Dublin. Budget-conscious passengers (eg. stag/hen parties) may bypass geographically close airports to secure a low fare from (say) STN (an example of the economic catchment area overriding the geographical catchment area).

Some customers will fly from their preferred departure airport every time, considering (when required) an en route transfer preferable to the hassle of surface travel to a less convenient UK airport. Public transport fares, car parking charges, possible overnight hotel charges etc may need to be factored in also. And every wise traveller should remember to place a value on their own precious time (you only get to use it once!).

This is why I personally prefer to change flights en route from MAN to offline destinations such as Berlin or Madrid rather than mess about getting to a glorified bus station of MOL's choosing. If MOL and his ilk want me to fly with his company he must offer me a convenient product. I flew 22 Ryanair sectors last year (all MAN); next year the figure looks set to be zero. But I will still travel by air just as much. If Ryanair picks up other customers from elsewhere in my place then good luck to them. But I will not vary my travel preferences to accommodate Ryanair's tantrums.

The truth is that airport catchment areas are the function of every individual customer. One neighbour may find a less convenient airport acceptable for their needs whilst another will always opt for their first choice gateway.

There are regular contributors on here who claim that because there is a link from Liverpool to (say) Madrid there is no case for a parallel service from Manchester. Not so. Because those customers who currently use the LPL-MAD service do not represent 100% of the market from the Greater Manchester (or wider northern) area. Many of us change flights at AMS, CDG etc. in the absence of a dedicated flight. It is a mistake to suppose that the portion of Manchester area residents who choose the LPL-MAD option represent the entirety of the available market. An airline cannot get away with telling its customers where to go (although we all know one which tries very hard to do that!).

Certainly, all destinations are not created equal. A destination such as Wroclaw may not justify multiple departure points from the North, whereas arguably a more mainstream route such as Madrid can. Each potential service must be considered on its own specific merits.

So a catchment area cannot be simply dismissed as the geographical space which falls within a distance-based boundary line drawn on a map. Neither can it be defined only as the area from which 'Airport X' is the cheapest or quickest to reach. For every individual, distance from the airport is just one factor to be considered alongside financial cost, time expended, convenience, ease of access (availability of public transport?), personal preferences and so on. One person's catchment area is another person's no-go area.

This is why we could argue about "catchment areas" on here till the cows come home. But its best not to. There is no one correct answer. So we will never agree on one!

Cheers to all. SHED.

[TSR2]

Very logical post SHED.

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

Aircraft on the VOR approach to 23R again this morning, and the Flight Calibrator B200 making several approaches on what looked like the ILS approach.
Is there a problem with the ILS again, or is it routine ahaead of going from CAT I to CAT III?

[parky747]

I noticed that EZY don't seem to use the air bridges at MAN T3 anymore. I'm sure they used them when they were operating the old GT fleet! Is this a new cost saving measure?

[lplsprog]

Air bridges slow down the turn round time and Lo-cost airlines try to avoid them if possible. It maybe the turn round times at MAN have been too long with the bridges and they have decided to go the way of LPL and other airports where lo-cost dominate.

[1station]

Servisair, the UK’s leading ground handling provider, is delighted to announce that it has exchanged contracts with Go-Ahead plc to acquire their Regional ground handling business at 11 airports in the UK.
The Agreement encompasses Aviance ground handling operations at Aberdeen, Belfast City, Belfast International, Birmingham, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Glasgow, London Luton, London Stansted, Manchester and Southampton Airports. Servisair will also acquire the Aviance cargo handling business at London Stansted as well as Aviance lounges at London Gatwick, Birmingham and London Luton. This acquisition excludes the Aviance London Heathrow and Jersey ground handling businesses.
Abderaman El-Aoufir, CEO of Servisair comments: “Servisair is delighted to have the opportunity to expand its UK network to a total of 24 airports with the potential acquisition of Aviance UK’s Regional business. We are confident that this opportunity will give Servisair the ability to develop further economies of scale and offer airlines safe, competitively-priced, high quality ground handling services throughout the UK.”

[Dr Illitout]

"develop further economies of scale "
Is that job losses in management speak?
Good luck to all

Rgds Dr I

[MancRy]

Easyjet @ MAN have never used airbridges unlike GB Airways. It can speed up boarding by not using them but it's not really a cost cutting exercise. There are many airports across the network where Easyjet routinely use airbridge equipment.

[johnnychips]

Unlike a lot of 'neutral' correspondents on here, I do like MAN a lot. But my only criticism would be how long it sometimes takes the airbridges to be put in place. Over the past five years, I'd sat there was at least a 5-10 minute delay on about 15% of the flights I arrived on.

Perhaps bad luck and purely subjective I know (and a lot less inconvenient than having to embark/debark onto a bus - that's only happened once) but I think this is one area MAN could improve; so I could see why locos with 25 mins turnaround would be reluctant to use them (do they pay less also?) if there is a reliability question.

[42psi]

johnnychips..... the airbridges at MAN are positioned by the handling agent ... i.e. directly controlled (sort of :rolleyes:) by the airline...

[johnnychips]

Thanks, I didn't know that: I assumed it was under some sort of central control. So if EZY or FR wanted airbridges they would pay their agents to do it and hold them responsible if they weren't up to scratch.

And by the same token, do they therefore pay their handling agents to put up the steps to the back of the plane and direct passengers across the tarmac to the building then?

[TURIN]

So if EZY or FR wanted airbridges they would pay their agents to do it and hold them responsible if they weren't up to scratch.

A scratch is the least of their worries. :};)

And by the same token, do they therefore pay their handling agents to put up the steps to the back of the plane and direct passengers across the tarmac to the building then?

Yes. :ok:

[GavinC]

anyone know when the T3 apron expansion will actually start? I'm thinking with Easyjet expanding, will it be needed pretty soon?

[Suzeman]

Easyjet @ MAN have never used airbridges unlike GB Airways. It can speed up boarding by not using them but it's not really a cost cutting exercise. There are many airports across the network where Easyjet routinely use airbridge equipment.


Boarding time is hugely speeded up if you can use front and rear doors instead of just one with an airbridge attached. Few airports have airbridges that can reach the rear doors - seem to remember that AMS has / had some which were cantilevered out from the pier over the wing. :eek:

anyone know when the T3 apron expansion will actually start? I'm thinking with Easyjet expanding, will it be needed pretty soon?

Are they planning another one? The eastern extension of T3 apron which opened I think earlier this year is hardly used during at least during the day. Is it busy there at night?

Suzeman

[Bagso]

"anyone know when the T3 apron expansion will actually start? I'm thinking with Easyjet expanding, will it be needed pretty soon?"

I agree with suzeman, with pax levels back to where they were almost 8 years ago surely,there must be loads of capacity for sometime to come


1997 15,948,454
1998 17,351,162
1999 17,577,765
2000 18,568,709
2001 19,307,011
2002 18,809,185
2003 19,699,256
2004 21,249,841
2005 22,402,856
2006 22,422,855
2007 22,112,625
2008 21,219,195

[GavinC]

but has the distribution of airlines across the three terminals changed such that T3 is now busier than before and requires extension whilst others are less busy?

[Ian Brooks]

T3 is a very busy terminal with FlyBe,BA,BMI, Easyjet and American to name a few
many of which have a very fast turn around

Ian

[Suzeman]

Manchester have done it again. Below is a news item from the BBC website.



Passengers wanting first class service at Manchester Airport need go no further than the public lavatories - rated five-star by a "loo watchdog".
It scooped the best airport toilets at the annual Loo of the Year Awards Ceremony. An army of 300 toilet attendants regularly tackle the 1,015 U-bends, 464 urinals and 1,021 sinks to keep them the some of the cleanest in the UK.

Secret visits were carried out by toilet-checking judges.

The airport deals with 20 million passengers each year, who go through 43,930,000 metres (27,297 miles) of toilet roll over the course of 12 months. If "unrolled" this would stretch the equivalent distance of flying Manchester to Singapore four times.

Head of customer experience at the airport, Sarah Barrett, said: "We are absolutely delighted to have earned this recognition because in order to meet the expectations of our customers, we must get the 'basics' right.
"The award extends to all of the cleaning staff - they are among the many unsung heroes of Manchester Airport."

The various categories in the competition received more than 1,500 entries, and each toilet was graded against 100 different criteria. The annual Loo of the Year Awards started in 1987 and focuses on 'away from home' toilets throughout the UK. McDonalds was voted as having overall best toilets in the UK.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Some observations. The Loo of the Year Awards site says it is for T1 Concourse toilets, not the lot. Best Scottish airport ones are at INV, with no winners declared in Wales and NI, so doesn't there need to be a flush-off between MAN and INV for UK champion status? :ok:

Obviously the airport have put out a press release but it has yet to make it onto the Airport website - perhaps they are too flushed with their success to have done it yet :)

The amount of bog roll used annually is the equivalent of flying MAN-SIN 4 times, so that would take more than a week to unravel at the moment :}

And finally, I wish the organisers would use a word other than loo. Toilet, bog or convenience, but loo - nah

Suzeman

[simufly]

But a shame they cant get the ILS to work!

[Hamburg 2K8]

What's up with the ILS now? I see at the end of Pier B the works continue, what are they putting in place? Something to do with A380? Surley they cannot bring A380 into Pier B as it is now? What happened to building the new Pier?! Birmingham has one which handled the A380 fine so MAN should have one! I went to Hamburg for the weekend, flew out Friday afternoon, departure was 13.55, upon boarding at about 13.45 I noticed Saudia 777 crossing 23R for 23L departure, then our departure was delayed to 14.10 due to landings being made on 23L, what's wrong with 23R now? Also, I noticed that gate 25 has one of those stupid yellow mirrors that Pier B have, doesn't Pier C have those sensor things, so the pilots know when to stop? Do T2 & T3 have these?

[OltonPete]

Summer 2010 has been revised out goes: -

Amsterdam
Barcelona
Cork
Faro.

Base down to two very hardworking aircraft. They do 16 sectors in
total on Monday and Friday with 14 Tuesday and Thursday.

This is just checking one week in June.

Amsterdam ends after Easter.

At least all these routes are served by other airlines.

Pete

[wiccan]

So..it's "Bye Bye Baby,Good Bye" then :suspect:
bb

[MUFC_fan]

Well, actually, if we are talking in terms of Ryanair, they have left an airport Ryanair have also left in as many words.

Yet they have become ever the more cosy at EMA, one of Ryanair's biggest bases in the UK. So really, WW is more saying 'hello' than 'goodbye.'

But for the sake of Manchester, yes. ZB, LS, U2 and the IT crowd have the market covered from MAN for the foreseeable future.

[mufc4evr]

hi

ive got the january edition of airliner world and it says emirates are adding a high density a380 to its fleet this month, any chance that might come to MAN in january as it says will be used for european routes.

[Seljuk22]

EK gets 2 A380 these days and will use it for ICN and CDG.

[mufc4evr]

Okay thanks

also there was something in there about a syrian operator Cham wings who wants to start flights to the uk with a link to MAN by may 2010.

[Invicta DC4]

The high density A380s are not the 2 class high density versions as they are currently on hold pending a decision by EK. The high density versions that they will get in the short term are still 3 class and only add a small number of seats [about 20 I think] due non-provision of crew rest areas as they will be used on flights lasting less than 8 hours.

Still don't think there is any 1st Class market in this country for EK [or any other airline] outside London.

[TURIN]

ive got the january edition of airliner world and it says emirates are adding a high density a380 to its fleet this month, any chance that might come to MAN in january as it says will be used for european routes.

Er, No.

The building site that is the end of 'B' Pier is not going to be finished by then for a start.

[RoyHudd]

Manchester Airport is facing major financial difficulties, which will shortly involve large-scale redundancies of middle-management. This inside info has come from one of the people privy to the plan for "streamlining the operation".

It should be no surprise to any regular user of the place, or any employee. The proverbial will hit the fan in January. Traffic stats are poor and getting worse. Revenue streams from the grotesque retail areas are way below forecast. Profit projections are so low as to be causing serious concerns with many financial organisations.

What a pity. Mismanagement on an award-winning scale. The airport will limp along, no doubt, but will lose its place as a major international link. And sadly, jobs will go at all levels of skill.

[planenutter]

Emirates are to start A380 service to Manchester by May 2010 according to sources. Hopefully this is true! :)

[MUFC_fan]

April 28th springs to mind...

[TURIN]

Emirates are to start A380 service to Manchester by May 2010 according to sources. Hopefully this is true!

Hopefully it isn't as one or ten of us will lose some much needed 777 work. :eek:

[mickyman]

'April 28th springs to mind...' more like April 1st !!

and a quick look to the left reveals an age of 13 !!

I'll leave it with you.

MM

[Ringwayman]

Zurich, Mahon and Sharm el Sheikh now showing on the easyJet website.


A380s for EK at MAN from April is not too far fetched granted that recent months have seen pax numbers consistently over 40,000 per month.

[Ian Brooks]

Only had time to check Zurich but 6 days a week from 30th April

Ian B

[Invicta DC4]

These are Emirates A380 current deployment plans to mid 2010 dependent on Airbus meeting their optimistic delivery expectations of one per month;

CDG
LHR 2nd Daily
ICN
FCO
JFK re-introduction
YYZ Daily (from 3 x weekly)
HKG

These are not in order, some routes will use A380s replaced by the "higher" density 3 class A380s on shorter routes such as their european routes

[Bagso]

Re EK380.

Must confess I cannot get too excited over this although I do think the prospect of daily A380 ops is wildly optimistic anyway.

Surely it would be better to add another service "if" demand dictates ?

If it did come in, is it also likely to impact on SIA, Qatar and Etihad ?

Also with all the turmoil in Dubai surely Emirates are not immune to this ?

Manch will be down to an 8 yr low by end of 2009 and we can ill afford to lose the meagre sprinkling of services which are left

It is going to take years simply to get back to where we were 2 years ago if it ever happens at all.

We have attracted then lost a shedload of major long haul airlines for a variety of reasons. With Superjumbos operating into 2/3 major European hubs and global alliances there are now far too many vested interests to make new direct point to point viable unless it is a highly lucrative route.

....even if you offered nil landing fees I doubt you would get these flights in !

[MUFC_fan]

'April 28th springs to mind...' more like April 1st !!


Sorry MM, don't know what planet I was on when I posted that - I did mean 1st!:ok:

I would have thought a third daily would be more beneficial to MAN, but thats just my opinion.

[IB4138]

3 new easyJet routes announced from MAN:

Menorca
Sharm el Shaik
Zurich

[planenutter]

Just because I am thirteen doesn't meen you can put me down. I used the news from Planemad, here if you dont believe me!
Other news, EK A380 is being prepped for a MAY 10 use, hence LHR 2nd daily being shelved.

Does that sound like it is written by a 13 year old huh!?

anyway thnx planenutter

[RoyHudd]

Hop it, sonny.

[MUFC_fan]

Hop it, sonny.


RoyHudd - does he not have the right to be on this forum? What makes your right on this forum stronger than his? Nothing.

The lad has brought up a subject that has been discussed on another website - how many times has that been done before on here?!

He may be young - but can he not join in the discussion?

[planenutter]

Thankyou MUFC fan!
Atleast someone will stick up for me on this discussion!
Not mentioning any names :mad:
Is it not perfectly all right to use info from another website, what is the point in going after me because u think it is bull :mad:!
I was only using the info and you get at me

cheers planenutter

[Skipness One Echo]

Don't let the detractors get you down mate!

When is the work on the old pier for the A380 due for completion? I assume there was some possibility of operations or did MAn just do this off their own back assuming it would be a selling point to have A380 gates before anyone had asked for them?

[Scottie Dog]

Nothing to stop you using information from another site, but it is normally considered courteous to credit that site with being the source - that that many people do that now a days.

Gosh I must be getting old!! :)

[planenutter]

Oh no!
Your life has only just begun!!

planenutter :)

[IB4138]

Cheeky, young wippersnapper!

I'm older than Scottie !

Show some repect to your elders young man !

:p

[Centre cities]

"Manch will be down to an 8 yr low by end of 2009 and we can ill afford to lose the meagre sprinkling of services which are left"

It is interesting that the nearest comparible airport (although smaller) BHX has the same pattern as MAN. Passenger levels back to 2005 and in danger of reaching 2003 levels.

I believe that this indicates similar problems that they both have in providing a middle ground for the existing operators and the so called lo cost boys.

Liverpool/Bristol/Leeds etc did not have that problem.

I think that it is a case of hanging on in there, the lo cost flights from the other regions will peak and MAN/BHX will experience growth again in the right areas.


Centre cities

[planenutter]

everyone who thinks they are old oh no!!!
You are all just starting your life :)

planenutter

[MUFC_fan]

MAN has told FR to sling their hook for very good reason. Yes LPL, BRS etc. are getting in the numbers with the locos but the airport is also a business.

MAN probably make more money off of the daily J passengers on the EK flights within the terminal than LPL do a day from all their FR passengers - it wouldn't surprise me.

It will be similar at BHX. CO and EK in the Midlands will be propping up the airport in these tough times with their lucrative passengers up front, as will LH, AF and KL. Forget WW and FR - they are just bolstering passenger numbers.

[harbour cotter]

Centre,

You are essentially correct. However, in the comparatively recent past, MAN and to a lesser extent BHX have been to all intents and purposes the only option for pax from almost everywhere outside of London.

But since the advent of Locos, many people appear to be sidetracked over just the low cost option. What it has actually done is open up markets so that people can travel from their own local airport without the need to travel long distances to an airport. For example, if you live in MAN you would rather fly from there than say LGW. But the same is true if you live in Leeds you would rather fly from there than travel to MAN. Its a natural reaction, although cost also plays a part in that element. Hence it was fairly obvious that airports such as MAN and BHX would take a bigger hit. Its extremely unlikely that they will regain such a dominant position in the short haul market again.

After stating that, there are other opportunities in direct Long haul flights, where there is less competition and people are more willing to travel further to the airports, although there is more competition now from airports offering interlining outside of London. I am not sure yet how the long haul locos such as Air Asia may affect the market or if they are almost unique or at the beginning of something major, although the loss of Air Comet does not bode well in these areas. Ryanair is also an unknown quantity in the future for long haul.

Therefore in conclusion, I feel that growth will return to the previous highs, but perhaps more slowly and in different markets. Of course it is not helped by the Government/Green brigade seeing aviation as a milch cow to wring every penny out of travellers with higher taxes. (If the Government/green brigade REALLY wanted to cut co2 emissions, the 2 easiest and cost effective ways is to reduce the speed limit to 55mph and stop using water in plastic containers, but thats not sexy and theres no money in it for the Government (In fact they would lose millions)), but it is very green. Aircraft emissions are puny in comparison.

When Man does recover to previous highs, there will be more pressure on slots etc, and if the same models are in existence then, then I feel that Man (and LGW) would slowly ease out locos to concentrate on what they see as their core markets, ie premium and long haul, perhaps backed up with I.T. although again I'm not sure how much longer that market will hold up in its current form. Locos would be restricted to off-peak.

Just my thoughts.

[MUFC_fan]

But since the advent of Locos, many people appear to be sidetracked over just the low cost option.

You are quite right.

To get to SYD from LON is certainly not cheapest LON-DXB/BKK/KUL/DOH/SIN etc. which would cost approx. £1000 in the summer.

Whereas LON-NCE-DXB-KUL-MEL-SYD return was available for a total of £679 in the summer. You get what you pay for...

[Mouser]

MAN probably make more money off of the daily J passengers on the EK flights within the terminal than LPL do a day from all their FR passengers - it wouldn't surprise me. How did you come to this conclusion, are you guessing or have some facts & figures.

[gsky]

Mouser..

its a guess!!


(the answer is in the statement
"probably making"

also

I would guess he is "probably" wrong..

most of the J passenger dont spend anything at all
they go straight thru the herrendous duty free "grotto"
as quickly as possible

and

they go straight to the lounge and get everything for free!
Why buy?

Cheers

[Mr A Tis]

Have been twice recently through T1 at "peak" time (0800/0830 ish), only 3 security lanes-but still no queues, all the retail therapy shops virtually empty, just the odd chavs necking a few largers. Can't see the takings even paying for the electric bill, let alone making a profit. I guess the savvy pax still flying realise just how expensive these so called duty free shops are compared to the high street Wouldn't it be much more economical to replace some of these shops with some nice seating areas ?:)

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Crain's are carrying the story about Easy's 5th based aircraft.

EasyJet adds fifth aircraft to Manchester Airport
EasyJet adds fifth aircraft to Manchester Airport - Crain's Manchester Business (http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/article/20091210/FREE/912109989)

Interesting point for Rapidman47 to note: :E

Paul Simmons, easyJet’s UK regional general manager commented: “Our base at Manchester has been a particular success story and the response from travellers in the region has been fantastic. easyJet now offers a choice of 19 routes from Manchester to a range of key business centres as well as sunshine and ski destinations."

I also hear chinese whispers that the launch of DSA routes is a sweetener to Peel for future routes ex MAN which might compete with and affect the viability of some of their LPL routes.....

[Bagso]

Some good points Harbour but i doubt we will see any real growth in Long haul ever again at Manchester.....

The problems.....Well where do we start ?

Inability of the airport management to "fully" capitalise on the opportunities and that were presented in the past.

Inability of the airport management to fully invest and concentrate on Manchester. "Speculative" and ridiculous investment in East Midlands, Humberside, Bournemouth etc at the expense of Manchester itself !

Additional levies imposed by airlines that operate direct LH services, totally unchallenged, meaning it is actually dearer to fly direct from Manchester than London.

A deafening silence in terms of media or parliamantary relations when it comes to national airport debate/discussions - no voice no input !

Closure of once lucrative routes based on pressure from "other" airlines within the same global alliance, Qantas, Cathay etc etc

A perception by the media soaked up by "us northerners" that airports in the South East are the "be all and end all" when it comes to long haul international flights.

Result...Three underused terminals, a second runway which might as well be mothballed... and a cargo centre which is nothing more than a road transport transit hub !

Just a totally rubbish performance.

Merry Christmas !:ugh:

[Mouser]

I also hear Chinese whispers that the launch of DSA routes is a sweetener to Peel for future routes ex MAN which might compete with and affect the viability of some of their LPL routes..... The deal between Easyjet & Peel as we all know is 5 Manchester based & 10 Liverpool based, regarding route competion its already there, and does not seem to have affected Liverpool's viability as Easyjet have had good year at Liverpool.

[MUFC_fan]

What could Peel actually do if U2 decided to put, say, 2 more aircraft at MAN?

Take them to court?

Peel: "Your honour, we have in writing a contract between ourselves and easyJet concerning the growth of the carrier at a nearby airport at Manchester. They have broken this my increasing aircraft numbers."

Judge: "Get out..."

If it was anything more than a 'gentleman's agreement,' then the Competition Commission would be all over the two companies like a rash and MAG would certain add the salt.

For it to be set in stone is very illegal whereas there is nothing to prove with a 'gentleman's agreement.'

I'm sure that easyJet will know what they are doing and when the new CEO takes his post, that 'agreement' may go out of the window.

Only time will tell...

[Mouser]

What could Peel actually do if U2 decided to put, say, 2 more aircraft at MAN?

Take them to court?

Peel: "Your honour, we have in writing a contract between ourselves and easyJet concerning the growth of the carrier at a nearby airport at Manchester. They have broken this my increasing aircraft numbers."

Judge: "Get out..."

If it was anything more than a 'gentleman's agreement,' then the Competition Commission would be all over the two companies like a rash and MAG would certain add the salt.

For it to be set in stone is very illegal whereas there is nothing to prove with a 'gentleman's agreement.'

I'm sure that easyJet will know what they are doing and when the new CEO takes his post, that 'agreement' may go out of the window.

Only time will tell... Dream on !

[Momentary Lapse]

In case you guys n gals hadn't noticed, there is a recession on, largely affecting the middle class.

They are exactly the sort of people who buy the travel products and services that are now struggling, whether the airline ticket, the lounge, the car parking or the duty free.

Similarly, businesses are tightening their belts, so business travel budgets will be cut.

Flying is no longer glamorous: it's lengthy, tiring, and complicated (security reqts, US visas, luggage surcharges, distant car parking etc.). By contrast, rail quality has improved (Paris and beyond are now feasible by rail).

There is less demand for bucket and spade leisure, because domestic holidays are now more pleasant, whether in one of our much-improved city centres, or by the seaside.

Just as Berni Inns and Wimpey, once the height of sophistication, have disappeared to be replaced by Pizza Express, Costa, or Frankie and Benny's, so air travel has had its day and will be replaced by Euro or domestic city breaks or leisure in better quality coastal resorts. Ditto Woolworths for Amazon.

People are also more aware of the environmental angle of travelling long distances, regardless of method, and in the short term they've got less money to even afford any travel.

Life is moving on, and cheap and easy air travel with reliable traffic growth is gone forever.

I'm going to Europe for my hols next summer. I'll either get a cheap ferry from Dover, or a cheap train via St Pancras. I won't be flying, because of security hassle, duty free rip-offs, luggage surcharges, travel to/from the airport and of course the environmental issues.

The airport/airline industry is irrelevant to most people. I remember a stat used at MAG once upon a time: most MAN travellers on average use it five times a year. So, ten trips per traveller, divided into 20m pax. That's just 2m unique travellers using MAN. That's about 58m UK people who haven't used it this year. I bet more people used Woolworths on a regular basis, and look what happened there!

It's sad to see the industry curl up and die, but it's happening. In fifty years people will be shocked at the careless and decadent use of air travel, just like people look back now at smoking in restaurants, or smog over London.

[MUFC_fan]

Momentary lapse - are you being serious?

Its just a shame the world economies and business leaders don't agree with you...

Mouser - yes it is illegal.

[lexxity]

He's right about the train though. We did just this out on Monday back on Thursday. What a pleasure it was. Manchester to Disney Paris in six hours, seamless travel, the ability to get up and walk about, potter, not worry about excess baggage charges, yes there was security but it was as simple as 1,2,3 you did have to take coats off, but not shoes or belts, the staff were polite and multilingual. We changed in Lille on the way out, direct back in, and have had experience of eurostar, tgv and virgin over the last week and all in all it was excellent. The trains from London and Lille were bloody fantastic, lots of legroom and wide comfy seats, a buffet car you could stand up in as if in a continental cafe. It knocks flying for six. We worked out the time difference between flying and train and reckoned on around 1/2-1hr in favour of flying (transfers and check in time accounted for), but when you add in the hassle of passing through an airport then the train wins hands down, I say this as current serving airline staff.

[gsky]

Bagso
re ur commments

Result...Three underused terminals, a second runway which might as well be mothballed... and a cargo centre which is nothing more than a road transport transit hub .

Possibly correct on most points.
Overall performance is pretty grim.
However I would disagree about the cargo centre being nothing more than a road transport transit hub.
Whilst much of the cargo is trucked to and from LHR, and cargo volumes are down,considerable amounts of flown cargo goes through the sheds. For example more than 10000 tonnes ( import and exports according to MAN cargo stats) in November alone.
These figures do not include CX volumes and so the real figure is much higher.
No figures are available for trucked cargo which comes from or goes to another airport but there is no doubt that the cargo volumes whilst down, add "value" to business's at the airport , and they also, of course, provide valuable jobs
Furthermore they are picking up and perhaps should not be treated with disdain

[johnnychips]

Lexity:

I have to travel from Doncaster to Belgium at weekends quite frequently, but after 1600 on the Friday, and can take the East Coast Express/Eurostar to Brussels or Trans-Pennine Express/Citiflyer (VLM) to Antwerp.

Having done both, the latter method wins every time. Both British trains are equally crowded; the legroom in the Eurostar is poor at tables and the buffet dear, the queues at both St Pancras and Brussel Zuid are terrible; this is compared with short queues and check-in times at both T3 and Antwerp, and excellent free service by VLM. Sometimes I have to return by Brussels Airways, but Zaventem is preferable to Brussel Zuid.

You can bring bottles/beer back on the train; but last week I checked what should be a hand-luggage rucksack into the plane hold because I had a special bottle of wine; the staff kindly labelled it 'fragile', and it was on the belt at Manchester five minues after arrival in the luggage hall.

The only problem with the Antwerp flight is that sometimes they seem to get a block booking on the Fokker, which sends the price sky-high. So in March it quotes a return of £215, while the weekends either side are £86. Regretfully I'll have to take the Eurostar that weekend at c.£120.

[Jet A1]

The problem easyJet will have at MAN is capacity, especially for first wave departures.

[Bagso]

"Re Cargo - perhaps should not be treated with disdain"

No not all.....I just wish it was a lot lot more !

We had a brilliant cargo manager who MAG shipped out.... result volumes fell away and whilst we are in a recession the airport mangement can hide under this cover !

Just out of curiosity is traffic (pax or cargo) down at Heathrow ?

Busiest ever july and a 1% increase for Oct 2009 over 2008 !

.....Yes the airline industry is in some turmoil but Manchester traffic is falling off a cliff !

[bmi expat]

The problem easyJet will have at MAN is capacity, especially for first wave departures.

There is no problem with capacity in T3, with bmibaby dropping to two based units and the bmi longhauls ending earlier this year, and VLM no longer the size that they were. With the three new T3 remote stands there is plenty of space for more first wave departures.

[TartinTon]

Looks like Monarch have launched earlier than usual for W10-11. Flights now on sale until March 2011 :ok:

[TSR2]

Looks like Monarch have launched earlier than usual for W10-11

Could this be an indication that they have a cash-flow problem?

[TartinTon]

"Could this be an indication that they have a cash-flow problem?"

Possible. Could be they just want to be on sale earlier than their rivals.

[gsky]

Bagso

Agree with your comment on
"wish there was more"

not sure I do agree with:

"We had a brilliant cargo manager who MAG shipped out.... result volumes fell away and whilst we are in a recession the airport mangement can hide under this cover ! "

I do agree that MAN top team have no real interest in or knowledge about cargo but think the downturn in volumes is due mainly to market forces . However a top notch cargo man who understands the business and who had the full support of the airport management ( that would make a change!) would undoubtedly help.
On the question of Heathrow cargo.
Was definitely down for the first three quarters of the year.
do not know exactly how much but something in the region of 14% I think.
Oct figures rose slightly.. I think there are stats on the BAA web site.


MAN cargo volumes whilst down..and did "fall of the cliff.. but is slowly climbing back up the cliff.
It might also help if we knew how CX were volumes were holding up!!

October figures show cargo increases across seven of BAA's UK airports with London Heathrow up 1.5 per cent to 148,897 tons and London Stansted also increasing 2.9 per cent to 18,125 tons.


October figures show cargo increases across seven of BAA's UK airports with London Heathrow up 1.5 per cent to 148,897 tons and London Stansted also increasing 2.9 per cent to 18,125 tons.

[Adola69]

Hi gsky.
Your knowledge of all matters Cargo a very enlightening, but could you possibly answer two points?
1) Why are the CX figures such a mystery? Do they not publish these?
2) Have you any idea for who (If anybody) is the proposed Super Shed being built for, or is it just an add-on?

Thanks.

And now one for "Mouser". I see that you've posted 243 posts on this Manchester forum, probably all of which decry Man in some form or another, and are normally a waste of space. I do hope that post 244 and on continue in the same vein so that we can all confirm that you are probably one very envious "Spekearian" who longs for something different amongst the Orange or Blue tails that fill JLA. We have wisely got rid of most of our "Harparian" tail themes, but strangely enough MOLs mob have left all previous requests for runway slots on the table for Summer 2010 ! Perhaps they might be ready to pay for what they use? Just hope MA Plc play real hard ball if this is the case?
Over to you:rolleyes:

[gsky]

1) Why are the CX figures such a mystery? Do they not publish these?

as I understand it, because they decline so to do..I guess they believe them to be "commercially sensitive" ( and they may well be correct!)

2) Have you any idea for who (If anybody) is the proposed Super Shed being built for, or is it just an add-on?

not a clue.. possibly speculative.
Some guesses at one of the large integrators. but mainly that.. guesses!!

[ManofMan]

Whilst I cannot give you exact volumes i can tell you that the CX flight into Manchester currently has no available booking space until the 20th, unless of course you are willing to pay nearly double the normal rate so that they can bump somebody elses cargo !!!

During a recent meeting in HKG the cargo Manager advised that Manchester is currently the only destination in Europe that they are looking to possibly expand into at the moment, he also advised that they are looking at they plan's to pull the 74F completely from EGLL and concentrate on EGCC.

[Manchester Exile]

Flew in on EY015 this morning from Abu Dhabi. The good news is that the J-class cabin was 100% full. I didn't wander down the back to check loads there, but in all honesty I was expecting the J cabin to be 50% full at best.

Excellent service as always from Etihad. I wish them all the best and hope they can grow the Manchester service in the future.

And congratulations to Ringway management - what a pleasure to pass through T1 this morning. I was out the door within 10 minutes of disembarking the A330.

[MUFC_fan]

Etihad would be my next guess for an aircraft change or an increase in frequencies.

They seem to be doing quite well with loads. Obviously we cannot calculate the load between J/Y but I would guess that their front loads will be doing OK at the very least.

Also, the owner's number one play toy is based in the city which has got to help!:ok:

[ManofMan]

Just to add, came back from China on the 29th and Business was full on the evening EK, again was through and in the car in just over 20 minutes.

The flight down to EGLL was also hassle free, security was a dream at 08.30-hrs, Infact I queued long to get on the A380 at EGLL !!

[ManofMan]

Etihad would be my next guess for an aircraft change or an increase in frequencies.

Tomorrows flight will be operated by a A340.

[EC-ILS]

Arnt EY going to increase either MAN to DUB to 10 weekly? DUB is alosachieving great loads in both cabins, it will be tight!

[Skipness One Echo]

Isn't all that premium service rather wasted going head to head with Ryanair? Most odd....

[lasernigel]

Came in last night on EK019, nearly full just the odd free seats.
Went out last Sunday, same, aircraft full.
Only criticism is that Emirates are starting to treat the pax in the back the same as you'd expect with Monarch et al.
I wasn't the only one to complain.:sad:
If they don't get back to the standard they were, pax will soon figure it out that Etihad and Qatar are just as good options.

Oh just to say from an earlier post I made re how the 777 gets onto the stand, it now turns straight in without the diversion via T2. Was the turning circle limit revised or what?

[MUFC_fan]

I think the problem with EK is their focus on growth rather than quality at the back of the plane.

However, their new business and first suites are simply amazing and only second to that SE Asian airline...:ok:

[42psi]

Oh just to say from an earlier post I made re how the 777 gets onto the stand, it now turns straight in without the diversion via T2. Was the turning circle limit revised or what?


Nothing has changed.

The "scenic" route was used as a question was raised by EK that the turn onto stand might be placing a strain on the main gear.

The "long way round" was used while that was checked out, once EK decided there was nothing wrong with making the turn then the normal route onto stand was resumed.

I think (but I may be wrong:O) the original question was actually raised by the engineers .....

[ManofMan]

Isn't all that premium service rather wasted going head to head with Ryanair? Most odd....

[MUFC_fan]

Singapore have an apparent 94% load factor for the month of November - is this the reason why the simply cannot 'cancel' it - just too unjustifiable to walk away?

Surely one of the highest load factors on their network and I find it ridiculous that it has come to three times weekly.

Their fares aren't exactly cheap either...

[Ringwayman]

Blimey, 8 mins from me posting on t'other site to see a stat quoted there finding it's way here!
Bear in mind my calculation was done on the back of a postage stamp so could be a little bit out?! SQ do use 285 seat 772s here, don't they?

[mickyman]

MUFC_fan

Perhaps the 'high' load is due to there being only 3 services
a week at the moment?
If you spread this over 7 it wouldnt look so 'good'?

MM

[Ringwayman]

Ok, let's look at the 2008 figure: 11586 pax. 5 weekly ops back then = 44 services. Average of 263 pax or 92.2% loads?!

[Skipness One Echo]

Aren't Singapore back at 5 weekly again? Days 1 3 5 67
Isn't this a classic route for the B777-300ER? I mean it's not as if SQ are new to MAN and just finding their feet.

[Ringwayman]

Believe it's 5 weekly round the Xmas and New Year period only.

[gsky]

"Whilst I cannot give you exact volumes i can tell you that the CX flight into Manchester currently has no available booking space until the 20th, unless of course you are willing to pay nearly double the normal rate so that they can bump somebody elses cargo "

but what about the exports... any ideas how they are looking?

[MUFC_fan]

MUFC_fan

Perhaps the 'high' load is due to there being only 3 services
a week at the moment?
If you spread this over 7 it wouldnt look so 'good'?

MM


:hmm:Are you actually being serious?:\

[Shyted]

MM,

The reason it is down to 3 a week from daily is the inability of SQ to fill there A380s out of LHR. If it went back to daily they would fill it. Basically the MAN pax are propping up the LHR service.

Shyted

[pwalhx]

gsky - the money is made, as you know, on the inbound freight, having said that we ( that is the company I work for) have noticed export freight picking up again but rates are still dragging along the bottom

[Betablockeruk]

More cargo news:

MAG Developments, the property and development arm of Manchester Airports Group (MAG), has secured a new tenant at the World Freight Terminal. FedEx Trade Networks Transport & Brokerage (UK) Ltd has agreed a three-year lease at £10 per sq ft for Building 303 – a recently-refurbished unit totalling around 4,000 sq ft.

[Seljuk22]

SQ SIN-MUC-MAN 5 weekly (x24) B773ER from 28th March

[MANFlyer]

Timings:

SQ327 MAN-MUC-SIN 0920 1225 1335 0740* arr SIN
SQ328 SIN-MUC-MAN 2245 0535* 0635 0800 arr MAN

Good news for a change...

[Trash_Hauler]

Basically the MAN pax are propping up the LHR service.

Nothing new there then!

[gsky]

Betablockeruk

Right!
export may earn little revenue for the airline.

but

1. They (aim to) cover all/some of the cost on the return leg.

2. Going back to the original point, "use/utilisation (or lack of) of the MAN cargo sheds... exports put volume and vital revenue thru the sheds.

Cheers

[Ringwayman]

Part of Fedex has taken 4000 square feet of Builidng 303 in the Freight Terminal on a 3 year deal.

[A330ETOPS]

I couldn't agree more. I fly to Australia twice a year and for the past 4 years, i have only chose Emirates. My past 3 experiences with them were very poor and i found the service dreadful. Great IFE etc but the service is slacking. I asked for a coke & a baileys and they said 'sorry sir you can only have 1 at a time'

I decided to fly Singapore this year and what a difference. It was well worth the transfer down to LHR (saved me £300 in total)!

[MUFC_fan]

SQ SIN-MUC-MAN 5 weekly (x24) B773ER from 28th March


The best news I have heard in ages! I'll be trying their first class product to MUC and back with U2!:ok:

[Bagso]

Re BA Strike

Radio Manchester (otherwise known as Radio Pensioner), getting very animated and reporting

"significant contingency operation in process to deal with the impact of the BA strike at Manchester"

...I must be living in a space time continuum I could have sworn BA pulled out almost all services many years ago !

..also ironic to find that BBC News were trailing this story with a substantial number of shots ALL taken off 23R at Manchester ! An airport where BA abdicated responsibility many years ago and where the strike will have only a modest effect compared to the South East.

...at least if they do go down the pan the impact at Manchester will be modest !:ok:

[GavinC]

Is the Singapore service in addition to the current service? I'm a bit confused.

[Skipness One Echo]

where BA abdicated responsibility many years ago
Since when was offering seats on an aircraft a civic duty? Is this 1970? Is BA owned by us? Do BEA have a monopoly on European services from MAN?

Er....no. Join the 21st century. Loads of people will be screwed over by this with families trying to connect to flights from LHR and LGW from MAN. If you really want to see tens of thousands of good men and women out of work because of a militant uion bagso then you really are a pathetic shallow piece of work. Perhaps you should write "Serves you right" letters to the kids? Dear God man!

I'm not defending the utter car crash that this make or break dispute will bring, it will possibly bring down all of BA. I just get annoyed at the same old tripe regurgitated by the same old faces on here.

MAN has more of a fine network and a connection to the world than BA ever offered.
...at least if they do go down the pan the impact at Manchester will be modest !
"I'm alright Jack"?
Stop getting off on the real misery of others.


In other news...

The reason it is down to 3 a week from daily is the inability of SQ to fill there A380s out of LHR. If it went back to daily they would fill it. Basically the MAN pax are propping up the LHR service. It's ALL London's fault! Always always always!

Am I right in thinking that going back to a one stop B77W to Singapore is a good move? I think the B77E direct has issues it seems...great news nonetheless, the SQ B77W is an impressive machine.
The best news I have heard in ages! I'll be trying their first class product to MUC and back with U2!
1) Stop name dropping
2) Is BONO paying and does the service have an EDGE?

[MUFC_fan]

1) Stop name dropping


Sorry, I didn't realise we were posting on a BBC website..:mad: - finally a use for that 'smile.'

Anyway, it could be either the orange low cost airline or the national airline of Germany. I think that is diplomatic as I can make it...:ok:


Am I right in thinking that going back to a one stop B77W to Singapore is a good move?


For the passenger and the airline it becomes a completely different ball game. When comparing EK's 77W, QR/EY A330s and the 77E of SQ, the latter was far behind for the level on board service and considering SQ are seen as one of the trend setters, it was a bit of a disappointment. Now they have shot straight into number one spot.

Also, as has been mentioned on a number of the ULH flights, they are becoming less lucrative for the simple reason of they are burning fuel to carry fuel. The SIN route, although not considered as an ULH route, was quite a distance for the 77E. This meant it was, as mentioned above, burning fuel to carry fuel. Maybe the stop will help with this.


I think the B77E direct has issues it seems...great news nonetheless, the SQ B77W is an impressive machine.


The 77W overall is an awesome machine, especially with the, I hate to admit it, GE engines. They are HUGE. Also, as mentioned above, the onboard service is second only to their own and EK's A380s.

[Mr A Tis]

If CX are keen to add some extra freight capacity MAN way, they could always do the unthinkable:rolleyes: and put a couple of pax flights a week into MAN with huge belly hold capacity ???? but as Manchester has one of the largest Chinese communities in the UK, it's never gonna happen is it?:{

[EGCC4284]

Can someone please tell me how many flights a week Qatar do into Man and what aircraft type does the job?

[AircraftOperations]

Their website says a daily service and usually A333.

[scrapy]

According to the Machester Airport website press release regarding the airports toilets winning Loo of the Year Awards 'Our passengers get through 43,930,000 metres of toilet roll each year - if ‘unrolled’ this would stretch the equivalent distance of flying Manchester to Singapore (10,938 km) four times – or – Manchester to New York (5,385 km) eight times'

Given that Manchester has about 21 million passengers a year each passenger uses an average of 2m of toilet roll.

This says a lot about the standards of catering at MAN.

[Ringwayman]

Headline figure from SQ on their network performance in November is that they had "filled 72.3% of space available for passengers".

[Seljuk22]

Is the Singapore service in addition to the current service? I'm a bit confused.

Up to 27th March SQ is flying 3 weekly nonstop SIN-MAN and from 28th March SQ will fly 5 weekly SIN-MUC-MAN and you can book MAN-MUC.

[MUFC_fan]

Headline figure from SQ on their network performance in November is that they had "filled 72.3% of space available for passengers".


On their entire network?

If not - then it means approx. 20% of MAN's SQ loads are based on non-revs.

[Invicta DC4]

It's yields that matter, not loads. Thats why half empty aircraft flying from LHR/LGW to wherever usually make more money for airlines despite the higher airport costs.

[Bagso]

Dear Skipness

Clearly we are not worthy....!

However for your benefit I will clarify that this is an open forum and basically you can post whatever comes to mind, BUT if you are going to challenge a posting please to try to read the postings thoroughly first, reading is so important !


Since when was offering seats on an aircraft a civic duty?

Where did I suggest it was? BA pulled out of Manchester and centralised on Heathrow, good luck to them, it was a commercial decision, I merely pointed out that because of this, the impact would not be as great as it might have been a few years ago ! I wasn't suggesting that Manchester has a divine right to be served by the national carrier, but fortunately as a number of airlines have successfully replaced them, it does suggest that they missed an opportunity, and as a result the impact on Manchester will by comparison be negligible!

You seem to be suggesting that the term "abdicate" used in the context of my posting implies "offering seats on an aircraft a civic duty "

Definition of the term adbdicate To forgo, To surrender, To give up, To abandon, To relinquish.....

Er....no. Join the 21st century. Loads of people will be screwed over by this with families trying to connect to flights from LHR and LGW from MAN.

Never suggested that either ! To suggest I am gloating as a result of this
is clearly puerile nonsense !


If you really want to see tens of thousands of good men and women out of work because of a militant uion (its union) bagso then you really are a pathetic shallow piece of work. Perhaps you should write "Serves you right" letters to the kids? Dear God man!

..... clearly you need more clarification, very tiresome !

It was 92% of those quote...good men and women who voted to take this action, knowing full well the consequences, do please enlighten us with your wisdom as to how on earth the result of a "freely taken vote" can be blamed on the union ?

...at least if they do go down the pan the impact at Manchester will be modest !

er true again ...sorry but I am more interested in the commercial impact on Manchester than Heathrow and Gatwick ! The observation was made in the context that the hysterical media were quoting this is a "national disaster which will affect us all ... it won't !

[EC-ILS]

DUB has one the extra 3 weekly flight EY said it would add to either DUB or MAN, not great news for MAN but with competition from QR and EK at MAN, DUB was going to have a small advantage.

[BombardierCR7]

As already discussed earlier in the thread, official confirmation of the SIN-MUC-MAN 5 weekly SQ operation:

http://info.sgx.com/webcoranncatth.nsf/VwAttachments/Att_FC0DD80ADE2B09EB4825768E00333EB7/$file/NE520916Dec09.pdf?openelement

[Suzeman]

Skippy 1E wrote

MAN has more of a fine network and a connection to the world than BA ever offered.


It certainly does but no thanks to BA who were determined to stop other L/H operators at every step of the bilateral process with unbalanced demands. Luckily the UK DfT or whatever they are called this week, eventually saw through this after careful targetted lobbying by MAN and long haul services were allowed to come in.

In addition MAN put its trust in what BA were telling them future developments would be and responded (eg by building T3) , only to find it never happened - similar I guess to what happened later at LGW. A misjudgement by MAN in hindsight as no doubt other opportunities were not exploited because of this.

So you can understand Skippy, that there is a certain amount of resentment in the NW (and probably other regions too) over BA's actions and lack of real support over many many years. Whilst the words may have been supportive of the regions, the actions certainly weren't.

And don't forget all the staff at MAN and BHX and other regional bases whose lives have already been disrupted by BA's withdrawal of services.

I just get annoyed at the same old tripe regurgitated by the same old faces on here.


Thanks to Bagso's last response, I now realise that you are also applying to join the gang - certainly one of the same old faces - but I'm afraid that you are only halfway there as you are contributing new tripe to this thread. Please try harder.

Suzeman

[TURIN]

Ref EK 777 Scenic route...

I think (but I may be wrong) the original question was actually raised by the engineers .....

You are indeed wrong. The crew originally raised this to the engineers who offered their wisdom. EK and MAN then came up with the roundabout route until a proper risk assesment could be carried out. (Something that perhaps should have been done before it was moved from T2). :ok:

[TURIN]

..also ironic to find that BBC News were trailing this story with a substantial number of shots ALL taken off 23R at Manchester ! An airport where BA abdicated responsibility many years ago and where the strike will have only a modest effect compared to the South East.


It may well look like the old days though over Christmas as up to 20 craft will need to be parked at MAN for the duration of the strike.

[AircraftOperations]

A MAN based colleague just texted to say there was apparently a BE full emergency this evening at MAN, and there is also a GSM 738 with a tractor parked behind it.

For anyone that is interested.

[MAN777]

If I remember correctly, last time there was a dispute at LHR we had several 747s divert direct to MAN with PAX as there were no stands left at LHR. Plenty of space at MAN ay the moment !!:rolleyes:

Not really on topic, but I just had a rare thought :)

Say the strike goes ahead as threatened, what would the crews on long haul outbounds due out before the strike do ? Would you turn up for work knowing that you would be dumped the other side of the world for xmas ?

[horatio_b]

Not quite as bad as many feared

MAG profits slump as passenger traffic falls 11.8 per cent - Crain's Manchester Business (http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/article/20091217/FREE/912179993/1198)

[Skipness One Echo]

Hey Suzeman, fair point I will try. My dad used to tell me tales of BOAC forcing SAS and KLM out of PIK and then buggering off themselves a few years later. It's a familiar tale. I promise to try and stop talking tripe, please don't think I am anti-MAN, I think it's a cracking airport.

As to BA, what goes around comes around. There may not be a BA next Christmas and that may actually be for the common good. Now I bet you never thought I'd be saying that? I think commercially, I can't see a way back for them.

[MAN OPS]

Aeroflot 767-300 VPBAY posn in this evening for mtce

and

Gulf air A320 in on 22nd for paint job as GF9000 from HAM

[Suzeman]

My dad used to tell me tales of BOAC forcing SAS and KLM out of PIK and then buggering off themselves a few years later.

Skipness
Forgotten about the goings on at PIK! BOAC of course stopped SN doing transatlantics from MAN - they were the first with the jet (707) whilst BOAC were still using Britannias. Then it was the turn of EI to get shafted as their 5th freedom services through MAN were curtailed (in the 70's or early 80s I think)

You write elsewhere about the BA Cabin Crew working practices. I think it was one of those that did for the LGW-MAN-ISB 747 services as they had to slip a crew at MAN, so increasing their costs. When they withdrew the route, (no doubt due to high costs), BA then announced that there would be no inconvenience as pax could still fly via the LGW shuttle and pick up the 747 for LGW-ISB. Yes that's two sectors and a transfer instead of a direct flight. It was an excellent own goal by BA PR as the airport used it extensively in the regional media and for lobbying purposes to demonstrate BA's disdain for passengers in the region.

And I heard that allegedly the costs of repatriating MAN bound baggage mishandled at LHR, particularly between T4 and T1 in the early days of T4 when there was a good chance your bag would not arrive from LHR with you, was paid for by the BA station at MAN, not LHR....

What with all the spoiling tactics, lack of committment and arrogant attitude, a lot of people in the North with long memories, often in the business community, are put off using BA. And potential pax who are not aware of this long history, I guess are now wary about travelling on BA because of the uncertainty of whether there will be a strike or not! Maybe they will try some of the other alternatives from MAN, so hopefully some good will come out of it for MAN (and other regional airport services).

As you say, there may not be a commercial way back for BA by the time it is all sorted out as the Union appear to be going to re-ballot

Suzeman

[Bagso]

If we are having some Christmas gripes and further tripe I may as well join the fray...nothing else going on so we may as well have a rant !

Forgotten about the goings on at PIK! BOAC of course stopped SN doing transatlantics from MAN - they were the first with the jet (707) whilst BOAC were still using Britannias. Then it was the turn of EI to get shafted as their 5th freedom services through MAN were curtailed (in the 70's or early 80s I think)

Suzeman...see also Pan Am and TWA...Northwest....and Christmas wouldn't be Christmas without recalling the continual BA spoiling tactics....

Eg Cathay start and lo and behold an angel appeared from the South in the form of BA, remember the short lived L1011 service and the comment....

"..it was always our intention to undertake this commitment to the North Of England blah blah blah "

...what a load of B*****Ks

As I recall the BA MAN - ISB service only started when PIA announced they were starting service ?

Air India wanted Bombay but were denied thanks to pressure from BA and offered Delhi, and as I recall didn't ALIA want another destination but were denied ?

All to protect the London shuttles...

Now history and most would probably be defunct now anyway !...

BUT as you say Suze...some of us do have long memories !

Never has an airport been in the grip of the stranglehold of one airline!!!!

[Skipness One Echo]

Hey Bagso, apologies for the tripe. It was a little bitter, sorry.

Worth remembering that hub and spoke airlines are a little schitzo. When BA flew directly from GLA-JFK, other parts of BA were very keen to route people GLA-LHR-JFK, on the same day, arriiving in the US at roughly the same time.

What's a great idea to one department, is anathema to someone trying to fill a shuttle. Screw BA anyway, they're dead men walking into 2010. They're already trying to bribe Executive Club members not to flee to airlines with fewer BASSA / UNITE harridans.

[gsky]

Slightly "skewed" viewpoint there I think Mickyman.

As we are talking about longhaul, and ignoring any increases in the loco's/short haul growth, most major airports are suffering a downturn.. not all.
As a result of the global economic situation and consequent uncertainty, few carriers are looking to expand ( with the possible exception of Gulf carriers who are expected to increase capacity out of MAN next year!)
and in the case of EK, EY and QR , people ARE supporting those services, in increasing numbers.
Whilst I agree that management at MAN could ( and should) have done better,they wanted BA and I think the greater damage was done by BA effectively either competing , albeit short term, or putting pressure on their alliance carriers such as CX and QF as previously mentioned.
Of course MAN wanted BA to stay and grow.. but they bet on the wrong horse
Having said that , you are correct , its up to MAN now to prove that they dont need, indeed dont want, BA and go and get other carriers to come in and compete
(as CO, DL, US have already shown they can do.)
Not forgetting Virgin , who, whilst still having a rather London centric approach, have at least shown some commitment to MAN.

Time will tell, and I hope that all at MAN now have got the message.

"BA ARE NOT INTERESTED IN MAN"

( I think they have!)

[mickyman]

gsky

As happens quite frequently my post has been removed by the powers that be because............

I agree with most of your posting and would like to see
MAN grow without BA's help, but people moaning about how
hard done too they were 30 years ago (and since) is pointless
in my opinion.

MM

[Ian Brooks]

It`s not only the UK having snow problems, huge delays at AMS and a KLM MD-11
just passed over me on it`s way to MAN

Ian B

[lbalad]

Just reported on Sky news,airport now closed due weather,is that so?

[MUFC_fan]

My parents are currently staying in Manchester and they say that there is snow coverage in the city centre so I assume that MAN will be similar of worse...

[TSR2]

Closed at 10.57 due to snow.

[VH-OJH]

Closed for 1 hour due to snow

[AirLCY]

I live in the City, the roads are thick with snow, so I assume the airport is far worse!

[Suzeman]

Bagso
As I recall the BA MAN - ISB service only started when PIA announced they were starting service ?


Quite correct - PK caught BA on the hop by announcing their service and starting 2 weeks later

And another one for the list - GF wanted BAH - their hub at the time - but were only offered AUH. Result - no GF service

Skipness
Worth remembering that hub and spoke airlines are a little schitzo. When BA flew directly from GLA-JFK, other parts of BA were very keen to route people GLA-LHR-JFK, on the same day, arriiving in the US at roughly the same time.



And exactly the same situation was experienced at MAN

They're already trying to bribe Executive Club members not to flee to airlines with fewer BASSA / UNITE harridans.

In my opinion, this is the main reason that people from the regions still fly BA via LHR

Mickeyman
but people moaning about how hard done too they were 30 years ago (and since) is pointless
in my opinion.


Not pointless at all as what happened 30 years ago - and what has gone on since - has shaped the situation we have today and therefore our discussion. We can rue the lost opportunities at MAN due to lots of things, many which were out of the airport's control, which have led to routes operating - or not - today.

And here's an another example which you might be familiar with from the NW. At LPL, it may well have been a different story if the owners - then the Council - had been bothered to develop their airport. LPL was bigger than MAN in the mid 50's but Manchester were aggressive in developing their airport, BEA were enticed away to MAN and the rest is history. I'm sure older people on Merseyside still feel aggrieved by the lack of council support until the airport was sold.

Oh hang on -come to think of it, I've never heard anyone in LPL moan about that, so MAN people must now be t' Champion moaners in NW. :} Wonder where we got that trait from?


Suzeman

[partyboy_uk]

From the BBC News website: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8423222.stm)

"That's why if you are travelling at the moment, or if you are looking to travel over the next few days, make sure you check the website and some of the departure boards for more information."
The airport's live flight information website could not be accessed on Sunday afternoon.

Come on MAN, at least get the basics right for passengers when there is disruption. :ugh:

[MAN777]

Can someone in the know explain why the very expensive concrete strip in Cheshire has not been used today, at a time when I thought having a second snow free runway would pay dividends. In my simple logic why not keep sweeping all day alternating the runways ? Instead we have had several hour long closures causing chaos.

[MUFC_fan]

Can someone in the know explain why the very expensive concrete strip in Cheshire has not been used today, at a time when I thought having a second snow free runway would pay dividends. In my simple logic why not keep sweeping all day alternating the runways ? Instead we have had several hour long closures causing chaos.


They are only allowed to use certain runways at certain times with certain departure patterns.

People living under the flight paths would sh*t themselves if they broke these rules.

[MAN777]

I thought this agreement could be waived in exceptional circumstances ?

I suspect cost savings might be the real reason :rolleyes:

Thousands of gallons of deicer, twice the staff on Sunday callout (ouch ! expensive !)

As an aside I bet the Pax on Virgin 074 were mighty p***ed off, sitting on taxiway Alpha for the best part of 2 hours this morning waiting for a stand to be swept.

[mickyman]

Suzeman

Im sorry but im just a super positive person who gets on.
What has ever been achieved with a negative attitude?
Wheres theres blame theres a claim - indeed.
Northerners should move on and be more positive.
MAN for me has over-achieved, given that it is not considered
to be a 'second-city'.

Old gits moaning about the past should be put to bed.

MM

[MAN777]

Closed again !!, why is this taking so long ? Are the Airport authority being hyper careful or is this turning into a cock up !! MAN might be up there with Luton in the "snow clearing fiasco" awards this year !!:rolleyes:

[Ian Brooks]

Having problem with snow banks I hear. We seem to be having trouble with all sorts of banks this yearhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif

Ian

[diver69]

Anyone know if aircraft are taking off/landing at the moment??? If not when are they are due to??

Cheers:)

[purplehelmet]

man777.
totally agree with you, whats the point of the second runway when its hardly used? like you say they should be able to keep one snow and ice free at all times.

[Ian Brooks]

A lot of the time the runway was clear but taxiways were unsafe due ice and snow banks


Ian