MANCHESTER - 7

[Betablockeruk]

If you want to only read about new routes and aircraft it would be a very quiet thread at the moment!

Found 1!!!

Icelandair 4 times a week dinner time flight from 25th Sept. Connecting with Keflavik US flights.

Recession over ;)

[MUFC_fan]

I visited Iceland last year and flew from GLA (sorry...:() with Icelandair and they were fantastic.

I believe they currently fly MAN twice weekly in the evening? If so, this is a very good upgrade and shows the Icelandic economy is obviously in a recovery, or at least flattened off. Maybe reduce fares across the Atlantic even more!:ok:

[Ian Brooks]

Looking at the Icelandair timetable it looks as if the evening service will continue as well at least some of the time

Ian

[IainB]

Flew from MAN the other week, first time in ages, and it wasn't the most pleasant experience.

OK, we were going at stupid o'clock in the morning, but why did we have to get the most miserable person in security who insisted on using She Who Must Be Obeyed's bag to calibrate the damn x-ray machine - several times! Half expected the thing to go "ting" and have cooked contents!!

As we were so early, the retail outlets in T2 were just beginning to open - those we could find behind the building works... And then the fun started. Smiffs selection of mags for the more mature male we lacking a bit, to the extent that the selection was poorer that Newcastle - so no Motor Sport mag or BMW Car magazine, just Top Gear to last me a whole week!! Loads of chuffin' ladies mags though!!
Don't buy mags before security in case my hand baggage get weighed, as some can weigh quite a bit. Will make sure I get sorted before the airport for our main hols in October!

On the plus side, we booked into the T2 multistorey car park and it was simplicity itself. Card in the hole, barrier up, park and wheel cases to departures. On the return, the bags were off, SWMBO had a quick fag outside and we were rolling out of the car park 35 mins after the doors opened on the aircraft. Well done ground staff. :D

Overall experience of the airport good, but could do with the outlets opening a little earlier and having slightly more choice. Perhaps our chums in Security could look a little bit happier as well?!

[LGWAlan]

According to Amadeus for October - the flight will ops KEF-MAN-GLA-KEF 0800-1135/1225-1330/1420-1540 (all UK times are 1 hour earlier after the clocks change) on Mon, Wed, Fri and Sat on a 75W FI436 being the flight number.

[viscount702]

Re the flights to KEF.

These four flights seem to replace the the existing two according to FI timetable and both Amadeus and OAG

[Ian Brooks]

Icelandair shows both for January in their timetable

Ian

[Hamburg 2K8]

Sorry all, this probably shouldn't be in the Manchester forum but I cannot find Heathrow. I'm returning from a business trip on Sunday (12th July), take off from hamburg at 13.50 and land at Heathrow at 14.30. My flight to Manchester then leaves Heathrow at 15.30 and lands at Manchester at 16.35.

I am worried that I might miss my flight from LHR to MAN. I pray to god I land on time at LHR or better earlier. Is it often that flights which are early tend to hold before landing at LHR? If I do land on time, would I make the flight to MAN, bearing in mind check-in closes at 15.10, I am checking in online and have 1 piece of luggage to drop off. My flights are with BA at T5.

Thanks for any help.

[MUFC_fan]

Have you ever transferred before?

What happens is that BA will take your bag from Hamburg and the next time you will see it will be Manchester. You will arrive at Heathrow and head down the transfers channel and go straight back into the departure lounge.

If you miss the flight to Manchester, you will be put on the next available but one hour seems very reasonable!

P.S. Sorry if this sounds patronising!:ok:

[Hamburg 2K8]

Thanks for the reply and info MUFC fan. However, these flights were not booked togeather at the same time. Does this mean I will still be doing a transfer? I thought I would collect my case at LHR and then check it into the MAN flight?

[spannersatcx]

If you tell them when you check in in Hamburg they should book your case all the way.:eek:

[MUFC_fan]

I'm not 100% sure how BA operate but I would assume they would put both flights together but again, I don't know how the staff in Hamburg work and how effective they are!

If they don't, you will have to do it as two separate flights and it will probably be tight. Can I ask why you booked it as two separate flights? Thanks

[TSR2]

Please remember that you have to clear Immigration, pass through Flight Connections and clear the Security Check at least 35 minutes prior to the scheduled departure time.

The recommended minimum time between flights is 60 mins.

[viscount702]

I think there is a mistake in the FI timetable because it shows the evening flight MAN KEF but not the inbound KEF MAN.

The evening flight is not in the booking engine.

Also in summer it is back to Monday and Friday only and still via GLA outbound

[Mr A Tis]

Why on earth did you just not book on the direct HAM-MAN Lufthansa flight?
Operates twice a day & flight time is around 1 hr 20 mins.
I wouldn't rely too much on BA, my last connection via LHR was a disaster & that was with a thro ticket, still I did get to my destination albeit 4 hours late.

TUI
I think TUI have really given MAN pax short shrift. Travelled CGN-MAN on Monday. B737 flt to Cairo had 4 check in desks open. The Manchester B737 flt had ONE check in desk, despite having 100+ load. Shame about the gap before german wings take over.

[horatio_b]

From tonight's Manchester Evening Post

MAG profits nosedive - Business - News - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/business/s/1125680_mag_profits_nosedive)

With current expansion hopes largely pinned on Ryanair and Easyjet, the situation isn't likely to improve in the short term.

[pwalhx]

I see posts like the one above and wonder to myself why anyone is surprised that profits have fallen in the current economic situation.

MAG is not alone.

[Momentary Lapse]

100s of jobs gone, no pay rise for staff, reduced profit, yet the fat controller still gets £134,000 payrise, about 1/3 more. That useless man is beyond belief. If he was any good at his job, MAG would be in far better position than it is now:

- less debt
- better credit rating
- happier, more motivated staff
- better customer service rating

I'm (almost) speechless.

:eek:

[MUFC_fan]

A profit is a profit.

Ryanair, BA et al. are making big losses - being in profit in the airline industry at the moment is becoming an anomaly.

[Momentary Lapse]

Ryanair, BA etc are airlines. MAG is an airport. While co-dependent, they are not exactly the same types of business. Airport tenants pay rent, regardless of their cashflow. Retailers, while partly passenger-dependent, also usually pay guaranteed minimum rents. Airport staff will still pay for car park permits, and so on.

On the flip side, airports' infrastructure costs are more onerous than airlines': they can't just park a building, taxiway, or shop in the desert if it's not making money.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

"A profit is a profit" ... well, except when it is actually a rather hefty loss. If one examines these results in more depth, it is evident that although MAG announced a group-wide *operating profit* of £78.4m the underlying result is really an after-tax LOSS of £100.9m.

This loss is attributed to two specific 'one-off' hits. Firstly, the value of MAG's property portfolio has apparently been written down by £42.2m (-12.5%). And secondly, MAG has faced "an exceptional tax charge of £106.2m related to repayment of government allowances on industrial buildings."

If anybody reading this thread is able to elaborate further on the nature of the £106.2m exceptional tax charge, your input would be much appreciated.

Cheers, SHED.

[MUFC_fan]

Thanks SHED, but in real terms the £42.5m is quite irrelevant no?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi MUFC_fan,

Well I respect all points of view of course ... but I'm in no hurry to write off £42.2m of my wealth! [I wish].

Cheers, SHED.

PS. Don't you know you could buy one of Cristiano Ronaldo's legs for that sort of money?

[AndyH52]

The £42.2m drop in asset value could be fairly significant. MAG will probably want to use those and other assets (if they don't already) as collateral against which to borrow for future investment works. If their existing assets aren't worth as much then they won't be able to borrow as much. It may also affect things like their gearing ratios which can be important in terms of any covenants they may have on existing loans.

[mickyman]

They could try borrowing from the now publicly - majority owed -
(Private) banks now in existance!!

MM

[geoffco]

A couple of weeks ago someone mentioned the possibility of a SingAir A340 visiting. Any firm news or just speculation?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

geoffco -

The SIA A340-500 visit was proposed in association with Manchester United's departure for their pre-season tour of the Far East. However, it is now understood that the A340 will NOT visit, with MUFC having chartered a VIP Boeing 757 instead (for departure July 16th?). The expected aircraft is reported to be SX-RFA of Gainjet (according to information from the TAS website).

SHED.

[TURIN]

On the subject of SIA, I have heard that they have renewed their slots for this winter.
Anyone confirm this?

[AndyH52]

Provisional CAA stats are out for June. Pax fell by 13% on June 2008 to 1,848,120 meaning the MAT has dropped back below the 20 million figure (rolling total for previous 12 months was 19,773,067 an annual fall of 9.6%).

ATM's were down 16.4%.

Ouch.

[Sam Chipperfield]

What did the Man City team use to fly to South Africa this morning?

[ericlday]

Not a balloon...... then must be a plane !!!!!

[IB4138]

I thought they were rowing there, in order to get fit! ;)

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

I don't know if they all travelled today, however those that did went scheduled on multiple airlines including via Abu Dhabi and London.

Is there an ETD for the Uunited chartered 757 on Thursday yet?

[TURIN]

What did the Man City team use to fly to South Africa this morning?

Heard a rumour that a certain recently transferred, Argentinian player didn't get his bag back. :suspect:

Bitter these reds you know!:hmm:

[GavinC]

they flew to Abu Dhabi for a stopover and to meet the bosses. I would assume they flew Etihad.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

It is reported in the media that MAG has withdrawn from the bidding for London Gatwick Airport. MAG and its consortium partners have declined to meet the minimum asking price of £1.5bn demanded by the BAA. As it appears that there are now no serious bidders left for LGW, it remains a possibility that MAG could re-enter the fray at a lower price in the future. Competition authorities are resolved to remove LGW from the BAA portfolio ASAP, and it is reported that the sale process could be taken out of the BAA's hands if satisfactory progress is not made.

An excellent piece of news IMO. Overpaying for an airport asset in this financial climate would be madness and potentially very damaging for the long term. I would personally rather see MAG nurture the assets it has already got. Of course, I presume the forthcoming sale of either GLA or EDI will have to be factored in too before long - MAG may be interested?

[MUFC_fan]

I think MAG buying LGW would not only benefit the passengers using the airport down south but also Manchester!

If you think about it, it is a perfect fit to start with. All the major carriers at Manchester are at Gatwick: MON/ZB, TOM/FCA, TCX/MTY, BE, U2, FR, EK etc. This means relations between MAG and the airlines will already be in place which I am sure will help (or maybe hinder;)) development.

Also, there are a number of carriers at LGW currently not up north and by MAG taking hold of the airport it may benefit the MAN - here's hoping!:}

[GavinC]

Apparently MAG were willing to pay £100mill less than BAA wanted. That's really not a lot. I wonder if the only other bidder left pulls out if MAG can force the price down to what they wanted to pay all along.
I'm happy for MAG to own Gatwick but ONLY at the right price.

[MUFC_fan]

When figures of £1.5bn etc. are batted around, £100m doesn't sound very much, however, when thinking that is:

£100,000,000

That is still a lot of money. It would pay wages for months! It is especially important at the moment for companies to watch every single penny and see the opportunity costs associated with any purchase.

[GavinC]

It would pay a lot of wages and that's why it is right that MAG pulled out and didn't spend the extra £100mill.
We could still get Gatwick at a steal yet. Lets hope so.

[globetrotter79]

If there are no serious bidders remaining and the Government is that keen to remove LGW from the BAA portfolio then the only remaining option is to nationalise it.

You can just imagine Mr Brown summoning up all his wit, wiles and charm in an attempt to attract new business into LGW?!?!

What an utter farce...

[AndyH52]

BAA will be under an obligation to its shareholders to achieve the best possible value for Gatwick - it won't be going at a knocked down price. Given that the CAA had put a value of £1.8bn on Gatwick during its last regulatory review of the airport, and that BAA had originally sought offers in the region of £2bn, MAG's offer of £1.4bn is actually way, way below asking price.

Don't overlook either that if MAG's consortium gets hold of Gatwick there is a risk that they will take their eye off the ball in respect of the Group's existing businesses and that would not be a good thing...

[Hamburg 2K8]

I'm probably wrong by putting some of the below in this thread but here goes: -

Took a day trip to Dublin today, mainly because I wanted to see the completed airside T1 and I also wanted to see Dublin for the first time. Very impressed with T1 departures, clean and looks fantastic, all change when u go to Pier B though, can't wait until they replace that! Went through Pier C too and thought it was better than Pier B but not great, especially down by Gate 31, how is there enough room there for the Emrites passengers twice a day, at the same time as Thomas Cook 757's etc? First day of kids summer holidays and the Termainal was very busy from check-in to the gates, however everything inside the terminal was very quick and efficent, friendly(ish) staff too. However, outside wasn't the same case, there was no stand free for my Ryanair flight to Dublin, landed at 7.20AM but didn't get on stand until 7.40AM! I watched Eithad A330 wait at a holding point waiting to cross 05L for 20mins, whilst others such as Amercian and Qatar didn't have to wait that long and they landed after Eithad, what's that all about? Plenty of aircraft's waiting to get a stand between 7 and 8AM, much quieter when I landed back at MAN at 4.55PM.

Looking at the departures board this morning I noticed that the Lufthansa Munich flight was cancelled, the aircraft wasn't at MAN so assumed it hadn't come in the night before for it's night stop, anyone know why this flight was cancelled?

Anyway, finally I was impressed with Dublin airport too, nice clean and plenty of air and space, looking forward to seeing the new Terminal next year. Ryanair on the other hand weren't so good, flights were pretty much on time, to be fair the delays weren't there fault, but the cabin crew were not Irish, (don't know what accent they had) but I couldn't understand a word they were saying, there were meant to be 3 of them doing the safety demo but the thrid crew member (who was nearest to me) didn't join in until half way through, very unprofessional! We reached crusing altitude, no turbelance but the seatbelt sign was still on, someone next to me wanted the toliet, got up to go but a crew member said they were locked until the seatbelt sign was switched off and so no-one could go, don't believe that for a minute and if your desprate, surley you can't be refused if your in cruise?! I mean if someone was physically sick what would they do, as there are no sick bags on Ryanair flights?! I assumed (and maybe I shouldn't) that all Dublin based Ryanair crew were Irish, the flight deck crew were Irish and I could just about make out what they said (I can't understand the Irish accent at the best of time anyway, so that's me). That music is so stupid after landing and embarrsing! They announce we have just landed on another on-time flight, when we didn't, we landed 20mins late in Dublin, does that always play no matter how early or late u land, ok not Ryanair's fault, was lack of room at MAN, but sometimes it is there fault?! Legroom was ok, bareable for a short flight like today's (35mins). Seats were hard and uncomfortable, especially on my back and arse! and whatever they were advertising on the overhead lockers, was in a language I couldn't understand, maybe that aircraft wasn't based in Dublin?!

Done T3 last week, T1 this week, need to do T2 sometime soon, ain't been there since 2003, anyone know who the works are going on here? I think Emrites looked better at T2.

Right, rant etc over, look forward to any answers & comments.

Have a nice weekend all.

[opnot]

Hamburg 2K8
with the work in progress around Pier B ,it is easier to hold acft southside rather than cross them, if their stand is not available.

[EI-BUD]

Hamburg2K8

Have to say I agree wholeheartedly that the crew are not very friendly on Ryanair especially the non Irish/British crew. I have had a good impression generally of the Eastern Europeans in Ireland and the UK but when it comes to Ryanair crew from these parts they can be awful. Totally robotic and unfriendly. I remember flying on the first scheduled flight into Doncaster in 2005, it was a Ryanair 73S. There were no Irish or British crew including the flight deck. They never mentioned that this was Ryanair's first flight on a new route, nor did they mention that this was the 1st Arrival at the new facility!!!! If Ryanair had staff like Aer Lingus or Easyjet or BA (some will comment on the difference between these also!!) it would enhance the customer experience.

In Belfast my local airports people that I know have commented that easyjet and Aer Lingus crew are so friendly and approachable whereas Ryanair is absolutely awful...! Its sad really. Some small changes could do alot for Ryanair's reputation, however, it is so obvious that Mr O'Leary only cares about lowest prices and no interest in developing a sought after brand!!

As regards the comment on the announcement saying you have arrived on yet another on time Ryanair arrival. This has to be the most annoying announcement ever. We were delayed last December flying from Dublin to Edinburgh due to ATC delays or rather a long line of aircraft waiting to take off at 7am! We landed in Edinburgh 50 mins late and many commented at least we didnt have to listen to the awful announcement!!!
It used to have a trumpet sort of sound but that has been reduced now to something a little more reasonable!!

EI-BUD

[steve platt]

The LH4868 Munich flight on thurs was cancelled due to the aircraft going tech en route it landed back in munich safely but there was no replacement aircraft available. 1st time i have known this flight to be canx in 5 years of working at the airport!

[Momentary Lapse]

It would probably be a good thing if MAG could get LGW at the right price.

Of course the economy has changed for the worse since the CAA/BAA valuations of LGW. In the end, any thing is only worth what someone's prepared to pay for it: go see eBay for that economic law in action every day.

MAG should probably offer £0.5bn and go up from there, to reduce BAA's expectations still further.

My worry is the calibre of the shareholders, specifically whether they've got the balls to reconsider if the current MAG board are up to the job of running a significantly larger organisation, and to strengthen it if they conclude that they're not up to the job.

When MAPLC bought EMA and BOH, the banks, who lent the significant sum of £240m to buy airports valued at £140m, insisted on a new corporate governance, which gave rise to the MAG structure, and more robust directors, hence the replacement of gentleman Norman with the rather remarkable city-boy of Phillip Ridal. He tidied it all up, got the credit rating improved (since downgraded) but sadly was lured back to the city.

If they're serious about LGW, where's the new mgmt that's so sorely needed?

[JackRalston]

My latest holiday report from T3

Flew with Easyjet to Tenerife on 13th July, checked in at airport at 5:20am no problems there, through security within a minute, very good. Flight due to depart at 7am, we were delayed 1hr 30 in the end because once onboard, we were told we were 480kg overweight, stuck on ground for 1hr at this point and a nice family of 6 decided they would take the following day flight, had to wait an extra 15 minutes for baggage company to arrive and get bags off. Took off around 940am in the end.
Flight back into Tenerife on 20th July, landed at 4:15pm, straight onto stand 48 I think, through passport security took a few minutes, very good, baggage we had to wait a bit for, around 10 minutes.....on the whole, T3 looks superb now and everything running smoothly!

I have a few questions I want to ask people on my next post though.

[JackRalston]

After arrival into Tenerife, a mate and I wanted to talk to the pilots. After everyone had gone, we had a chat.

On departure at MAN, we didn't take the usual NOKIN1Y departure and instead took the WAL1Y, headed over towards Dublin, then to Cork and then down towards Canary Islands. He told us we took WAL1Y because we were on T.

We were a bit confused by what he meant (I don't have the best pilot knowledge, i'm more into the ATC side). After arrival back into Manchester on the 20th July, we spoke to the F.O and he said that because they are flying the 320s on the route, they take WAL because they follow a "transoceanic route" and took T9 route. They cannot take this route with the 319s as they aren't equipped with HF radios (or something, I was very tired as I had been clubbing for 7 nights and was so deprived of sleep!)

If anyone has anymore help as to what the transoceanic routes are and any charts etc regarding them, that would be grateful. I cannot find any information so far when i've searched.

[rutankrd]

The Tango airways avoid congestion between Nantes and Faro and save on Nav charges in the process.

They are however may be 100-130 miles longer

In reverse they can actually take advantage of the prevailing high winds as well.

As your said they take you over Ireland then on a track towards Madeira and then into Tenerife.

Monarch use these routes frequently i believe.

[JackRalston]

Ah yep, I think they must of taken T9 until BEGAS.

The flight down did take 4hr 35 cruising initially at FL310 and then onto FL350 and the flight back took just under 4hrs and cruising at FL360.

[MUFC_fan]

There was a good report in Airliner World last year with a Jet2 757 flying NCL-LPA which did exactly that.

It was cheaper to use the extra fuel than fly over land where ATC fees would be higher.

[MUFC_fan]

Rosy Future? | Trifter (http://trifter.com/europe/united-kingdom/rosy-future/)


:bored:

[wiccan]

The "Tango" routes have been in existance for at least 10 years....speaking as an ex Flight Plan Reception Section operative at Manchester

[Skipness One Echo]

Much longer than ten years, they date back to the early 1990s at the latest.

[MUFC_fan]

Having just booked via Netflights for November:

MAN-LHR BA 752
LHR-HKG CX 744
HKG-SYD CX 330
SYD-HKG CX 330
HKG-LHR CX 343
LHR-MAN BA 319

Anybody notice anything peculiar?:confused:

Amadeus says the domestics are all A321s while I find this a little confusing! I hope it is a 757 though! A final ride on one of these babies down to LHR would be the perfect start to the trip!:}

[jongeman]

peculiar? yeh, the fact that you've chosen the BA/CX via LHR option....meh:=

[MUFC_fan]

Sorry...:\

I am a silver member of Emirates but I thought I wanted to try something different. I have done pretty much every other option and have never used CX on the A330 which I wanted to try.

I think of myself as helping to keep the shuttle going!:}

[mickyman]

MUFC

I heard they plan to get rid of the 8 remaining

57's - by the end of Summer, so who knows a change of plan?

or just a glitch in the booking system - similar size a/c

after all.

MM

[chiglet]

Re the "Tango" routes, I used to use them in the last Century. [Sadly, I posted them onto a "Flight Sim" website...in answer to a question..and got (rather) CASTIGATED]
OOI, Brum and East Mids also use the "Tangos"

[roverman]

The announcement today that George Stephenson's 1830 rail line between Manchester and Liverpool is to be electrified is fantastic news for MAN. This will reduce the journey time between these two great cities and importantly between Merseyside through to MAN, and even more importantly gives MAN direct electric access to the West Coast Main Line via the Newton-Le -Willows link. Fast electric trains will be able to run from Glasgow direct to MAN.

Times have been rough recently but MAN is set to retake its destiny - to be the principal international gateway to the world from the North of England, Scotland and the Midlands. No other airport outside London can match its accessibility. The tin pot airports have had a good ride on the back of the lo-co boom, but we can now see that this is unsustainable and going pear-shaped. MAN has held on to enough of its legacy carriers to re-build and get back on track. The North can only support one main international airport and that is and always will be MAN. Time for the North to get behind its gateway airport and stop the wasteful duplication and attrition of air services. The same is true in other sectors - if we divide, we fall. Liverpool is the main sea port for the North West - let it be that and not build silly little ports at Barton. Leeds has a good financial sector - only an hour from MAN by train. All the northern cities have a strength and a role - let each play to its strengths, supporting eachother, and we will have the best chance of emerging from the South-East's shadow.

[MUFC_fan]

I agree it will benefit MAN massively yet I doubt we will see LPL, LBA, GLA, EDI, NCL etc. all go down the pan so soon.

The only way I can see MAN is going is upwards and this article yesterday does highlight a few areas (posted earlier but seems to have moved so new link):

Rosy Future? | Trifter (http://trifter.com/practical-travel/air-travel/rosy-future-2/)

As I said, I think the airport will be benefiting from so many different changes that are being made/happening.

[Skipness One Echo]

to be the principal international gateway to the world from the North of England, Scotland
Claptrap. There's proper connectivity between Scotland and MAN and that argument died when EDI / GLA got access to long haul flights. They have some of the same routes as MAN just fewer, for the proper long haul, it's always LHR / AMS / CDG / FRA.
Get real.

[Mr A Tis]

The only way I can see MAN is going is upwards

Unlike the lifts in various locations around the airport.

[Mouser]

Well Roverman,
the rest of us in the region may as well pack in,turn out the lights, and leave it to wonderful Manchester.

[roverman]

Mouser,

I'm a MAN fan yes, of course, and I''m bleating on in support of the airport. But have a look again at the deeper thread of my argument. What I am arguing goes beyond airports and to the heart of the whole socio-economic well-being of the North of England, as envisaged by 'The Northern Way 'et al.

The region cannot sustain multiple international airports - they will (and are), defeating eachother. Manchester has the best infrastructure and connectivity to act as the international air hub for the region. Similarly Liverpool has the sea port infrastructure and is well-placed to provide the links with the world beyond the EU, and so should not be undermined by developments such as that proposed for Barton on the Manchester Ship Canal. Leeds has a financial and legal sector which can benefit from good international air links. The way to provide these is to improve the already good rail and road links to MAN rather than duplicate air services and undermine the critical mass by more lo-cos into Leeds/Bradford. Hull provides the sea port links to the EU. What I am saying is that the belt of cities along the M62 corridor can support eachother to build a stronger northern region. If they complete for the same sectors they will simply undermine eachother and feed the South East dominance. It isn't a case of 'Manchester is great', it is simply saying let each city offer and contribute what it can best provide to the region.
The problem we face is that this country has let the private sector run wild, doing what the markets do best - seek the best short-term returns on capital for the benefit of shareholders (often overseas investors). I'm proud that MAN is one of the few remaining British-owned and publicly owned airports in this country. What we as stakeholders in this region need is a stable platform of structured transport provision which will stimulate sustainable (in the economic sense as well as environmental) economies. This requires co-operation and connectivity.

[Bagso]

to be the principal international gateway to the world from the North of England, Scotland


Ill get out my laughing policeman tape......

We lost any hope of that when the airport peeeed away opportunities with
just about every longhaul airline which has tried and failed.

Its great to see the optimism on here suggesting "they might come in" or "this airline might come".

Lost opportunites i'm afraid !

[TSR2]

roverman is absolutely spot on ....... but it will never happen.

[harbour cotter]

Please can we stop this drivel and return to the manchester AIRPORT forum.

Most pax want to use an airport convenient to them if possible. Most prefer a choice. Although I fly approximately 30 times per year, to worldwide destinations, I have only used MAN, LGW and LHR once each (not even return) in the past 5 years. This is for various factors.

For example, to fly to Peru, I flew EZY LPL/MAD, Iberia MAD/LIM and Star LIM/CUZ. I took this option as I saved considerably on the long haul tax as well as overall fares as I deliberately chose not to interline. Okay so its a bit of a hassle re-checking in, but I saved overall more than £200.00p. With that saving I booked into the executive lounge for a mere £12.00p, making the overall experience not bad. (I have to say however that the Iberia experience is even worse than BA and Flyglobespan, so its not all plainsailing!)

A couple of years ago I flew GLA to Orlando. Why? It was during the school holidays in England, but in Scotland they return by mid-August. Therefore for a family of 4 it was £1,600 cheaper in total than the cheapest option from MAN for the same fortnight. This meant an additional 2.1/4 hour drive in each direction, but I also took in a days sightseeing at GLA as my preference. Overall it was actually a good experience, as well as cheap.

Please do not presume that anyone outside of MAN see MAN as a first choice, even within the Northwest. Its always best to have a choice. Please continue to support your airport but enough is enough of my city is bigger or not than yours rubbish and all of the associated drivel.

[Vuelo]

For example, to fly to Peru, I flew EZY LPL/MAD, Iberia MAD/LIM and Star LIM/CUZ.


You'd have been bollo*ed had your U2 LPL-MAD been cancelled/delayed.

Personally, I won't risk mixing locos and scheds for long haul travel, just too risky.

If you had done MAN-AMS-LIM, you would have had more protection in the case of any sector failure. Worth the extra cost, in my view.

See, MAN has some advantages!

[MUFC_fan]

harbour cotter - get onto Martin Lewis with those money saving tips!:}

No seriously, you do have a point. I would also happily travel around the UK to get the best deal but your South America routing did astound me, mainly because Iberia was involved! Worst long haul airline in Europe?

Avianca is far superior - anyway - keep it up with the money saving!:ok:

[Mr A Tis]

25 minutes this afternoon to get from Level 3 T1 Multi storey car park to exit barrier. With pax 16% down, If you're thinking of parking in T1 MSCP this summer, maybe think again.?

[MUFC_fan]

Jet2 boss criticises Leeds Bradford expansion plans : Leeds Bradford Airport News Stories (http://uk-airport-news.info/leeds-bradford-airport-news-260709.html)

Why doesn't he mention MAN in the same light who have probably taken it even further?

Economies of scale?;)

[ConstantFlyer]

While Manchester Airport has lots of flights to lots of destinations, I tend to choose to fly from my local airport, Newcastle, to save both time and money. At three hours each way on the train and a return fare of £68.30, the slog down to MAN and back is rarely worth it. I wouldn't say that Manchester's catchment area is the whole of the North of England and Southern Scotland; it is more anywhere from where it takes less effort to get to a viable alternative. If there's no convenient flight from NCL, I'll route via AMS or CDG, or try EDI. However, it does, in my view, include places from where you can fly to Manchester to make connections. Thus while I'd say that Newcastle is not within comfortable reach of Manchester Airport, places with regular air links to it, like the Isle of Man, Aberdeen and Belfast, are. I remember that many years ago, a Newcastle-Manchester flight was part of the Dan Air City Link service. Bring that back, someone, and I'll use it.

[wiccan]

25 minutes this afternoon to get from Level 3 T1 Multi storey car park to exit barrier
Try 25 mins to get INTO T1 cp. Ground access closed [as it was yesterday...at 1.30 pm, but open at 4pm.....why? ]

[Ametyst2]

Ryanair are dropping the Manchester to Shannon service from the end of October and transferring the frequencies to Liverpool to make the Liverpool to Shannon service a Daily operation once again.

[conti onepass]

and it was allways full from manchester, who makes these choices to axe services???

[Vuelo]

Norwegian to launch 3 times a week to Oslo and Copenhagen this winter.

No doubt to feed the Norwegian and Danish thirst for Premier League football!

[MUFC_fan]

What is it with Copenhagen?! I doubt all three will remain. I would hazard a guess that Norwegian will be the losers on this route. SK have the transfer passengers (although they have been operating the CRJ much more lately) and U2 are well...U2.

Oslo should be a winner - maybe bring the fares down a touch!

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

Just saw another Saudi 747 freighter going past the window.

Seem to have been several in and out of MAN over the the past couple of months.

It's not a scheduled service, so I assume it's just a series of charters. What are they bringing in or taking out?

[Betablockeruk]

Could make a wild assumption that it's something to do with the Saudi Typhoons rolling off the Warton production line. Spares and such?

2+2=5 :}

[ManofMan]

They are collecting Steel...should be about 8 flights in all.

Another one tomorrow then the 1st/2nd/3rd/6th/9th and 12th of August.

[MAN777]

I heard they are collecting exhibition materials ? some of the flights are due to be 747-400s, dont think Saudia have any of those ??

[Shyted]

TFAMI Air Atlanta 744F flying for SV in full colours i believe.

[Ian Brooks]

TF-AMU due today which I believe is an ex Asiana B744

Ian B

[MANFlyer]

Times have been rough recently but MAN is set to retake its destiny - to be the principal international gateway to the world from the North of England, Scotland and the Midlands. No other airport outside London can match its accessibility. The tin pot airports have had a good ride on the back of the lo-co boom

Zzzz... Grow up kid, you'll be spitting next.

For those interested in the EK rumours (for which I am not, actually, as I do not like them), I was sat next to a Senior Purser who was ID90'ing on a flight recently. She told me MAN will get a third daily with a three class 77W with 8 x F seats. I expressed scepticism about the F market ex-MAN, but she said with only 8 seats they thought it worth a try.

Slightly annoyed to see MAN revert back to type after a few decent arrival experiences. Arrived back from BKK on LX via ZRH yesterday, to be greeted with a chocka passageway from the C pier at T1 due to a bucket & spade with all the idiots disembarking at the same time as us. Of course, MAN didn't let us down and the travellators were out. On to of this there was a leak in the roof half way down to immigration, so on top of everyone being forced down the narrow walkway, it then got more chaotic as everyone had to walk around the plastic document box (they obviously couldn't find a bucket) that they had put there to catch the water.

Even the bucket & spade lot thought it was ridiculous, and you've reached the bottom when they start moaning. ;)

[Ian Brooks]

It`s not only Manchester airport that is leaking, I think all the buckets have been pinched to keep our floor dry where I work and the roof was only re-done 2 years ago
Flat roofs are a waste of time and the first sign of any rain drip drip but this week was something else it was more like a water fall.

Ian B

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

MANFlyer,

With due respect, I feel compelled to point out that having commenced your posting by admonishing another contributor for expressing a slightly inflammatory point of view, you - in the very same posting - dismiss all vacation travelers as 'bucket and spade idiots.' I will resist the temptation to say, "Grow up kid, you'll be spitting next!" :-)

But seriously, do you believe that vacationers have less right to travel than anybody else? Do you not recognize that the customers who can afford holidays are those who have worked hard to earn that privilege? Does Mr. Smith deserve contempt when he arrives back from holiday on Sunday, but respect when he departs for Zurich on business the following day?

I put it to you that it is not desirable to develop a two-tier approach to MAN's customers with arriving passengers from Palma treated as a nuisance and those from Chicago considered the aristocracy. Because the problem is that these are the *same* people on different days; if they adjudge the airport harshly from their Palma experience they will avoid its allures when booking business travel to Chicago.

The airport is absolutely right to treat all its customers with equal respect. After all, do you consider yourself to have suddenly morphed into an idiot when you decide to take a hard-earned holiday rather than a business trip? No personal offence intended.

Cheers, SHED.

[skerry]

Have to agree MANflyer. Arrived last night into MAN on the evening EK flight, amongst the first Y class pax off thanks to steps and a bus at the rear door, zipped through immigration iris scan, then had to wait an hour for bags.

The problem seems to be the teminal one baggage carousels, which have a (very clever) switch which prevents bags being delivered onto the carousel if the space is already occupied. Unfortunately the system setting is too crude, and a gap of about three yards is needed to deliver one bag, resulting in the carousel rapidly becoming "full", with about 20 bags on board. Pax started to offload unclaimed bags themselves, which improved things but it still took forever. And this is with a two-thirds empty 777 - a full A380 will be fun.

EK groundstaff were present, but were more concerned with locating the crew bags than helping pax.

Incidentally, how long do EK crew layover in MAN? They seem to need more luggage than I need for two weeks in India.

[TSR2]

MAN flyer

After 45 years of world wide travel I can assure you there are far more obnoxious passengers that travel business class, than on all the lo-cost and charter flights put together. What is it with these business class tickets that makes people so full of their own self importance.

[MUFC_fan]

MANFlyer,

What amazes me if that you prefer LX to EK!:}

Seriously though, it is not exactly EK's fault that there are luggage problems at MAN - that obviously, falls down to the airport.


And this is with a two-thirds empty 777

:eek: Not very often an EK flight comes in that empty - are you sure?

P.S. My views will be slightly bias as I am a Skywards FF!:ok:

[MUFC_fan]

Rumours of VS are starting to rise again.

Could the new relationship between LA and Manchester be an incentive for a service to the West coast?

I haven't got information or anything but could it be possible with say, VS A343?

[Skipness One Echo]

Not very often an EK flight comes in that empty - are you sure?

Mate I know you are pro-Manch but he was actually on the flight....

I think VS are busy enough trying to survive without breaking out into regional expansion mode at the minute. UK-Los Angeles suffers from a lack of connecting on with no hub at the US end. What's the relationship between Los Angeles and Manchester again? Are they dating? First base?

[MUFC_fan]

Mate I know you are pro-Manch but he was actually on the flight....

CAA figures show that it is very unlikely for a flight, in July, to be at that level. Maybe true! I am not doubting that - but I don't think it happens very often!

[quote]
What's the relationship between Los Angeles and Manchester again? Are they dating? First base?
[quote]
New deal signed between the two cities.

[Skipness One Echo]

Deal on what though?

[Ian Brooks]

Manchester is now twinned with LA and the team from LA were in Manchester last week, don`t know what effect it will have but can only help!

Ian B

[Ian Brooks]

Probably a deal with Virgin Holidays as a lot of North West folk head west each year
and may be linked with Vegas as well

Ian B

[skerry]

OK, I didn't count seat by seat, but most of the blocks of four had one or two pax in them, most blocks of three had one or two, the exceptions being families travelling together. Even a group of around 25 Kenyan school kids were split up to give them plenty of room. So maybe I exaggerated, half-full?

And my point about the bags was indeed aimed at the airport rather than EK. The carousel is either faulty, or not fit for purpose. A shame when everything else was pretty slick.

[MANFlyer]

Ooh, I thought I'd touch a nerve having a popping at the main reason MAN is still going ; the bucket & spader's. :p

BTW, I have done more than my fair share of B&S over the last 20 years, including behaving like a **** like that lot yesterday morning. Except I don't recall nearly knocking an old lady over and leaving her in a distressed state like they did while p*ssed up and arsing around. Although the fact that number of people were packed into such a tight area obviously contributed, so MAN deserve a share of the blame for the (yet again) bust travellators and the leaking roof obstacle.

TSR2, fair point about the idiots in J as well, although I dispute the percentage. Nice and easily made in three lines as well. I would add that the ratio of ***s to be found in F is higher than both J and B&S. Shed, I can't quite work out why it took you about fifty lines to make just one point similar to TSR2, but I'm sure you had your reasons. ;)

What amazes me if that you prefer LX to EK!

Dear oh dear oh dear. I really can't think of anything to say to that. :ugh:

[steve platt]

Latest news about Sq...

They ARE staying at 3 per week all through the winter schedule with extra flights from 10/12/09 until 4/01/10.

At least there not pulling out.

Also Co down to 10 flights per week and AA down again to 5 flights per week.

[conti onepass]

spoke to a flight attendant from aa last week, he was saying that the AA054/055 from mancheste is full nearly everyday, same with continental!!!!! but hey as per usual manchester losses out in the winter.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

MANFlyer,

Apart from the fact that my post was twenty three lines long in response to your own original TWENTY FIVE (pots & kettles?), and that I made a point entirely different from that of TSR2 (who actually posted after me!), your observational skills are razor sharp!
:-)

But let me stress that I am not in the slightest bit upset by the suggestion that MAN is [at least partially] kept going by leisure travelers; I see them as welcome and valuable customers for MAN - it is yourself who appears to have some sort of problem with them? Bring them on: I am entirely content for MAN to benefit from their patronage. I have never subscribed to the theory that charter flights should be viewed as some kind of embarrassment to be hidden away. They are valuable business, and airports should not be afraid to celebrate and proclaim their contribution to a successful operation.

Yes, at an airport handling around 20 million pax per annum there will be some misbehaved individuals. But use of holiday flights is not the common denominator which defines them.

By the way, why the obsession with referring to all leisure travelers in derogatory terms only? Is it meant to look funny or clever? Happily, MAN does not appear to be in the habit of belittling its leisure customers with contemptuous labels like yours and I sincerely hope they never will.

Cheers, SHED.

[mybrico]

The point is that the needs of Business and Leisure travelers are different. Mixing them up creates issues for both.
Leisure travelers (Charter) want to enjoy their holiday – maybe the only flight they take in a year and they enjoy arriving at the airport a bit early, doing some shopping etc.
The Business traveler need efficiency, working space, rest and are prepared to pay because time is money. Fast track, club lounges, flat beds etc
Two other groups to mention – LOCO users seem to be more experience and frequent travelers – villa owners, independent travelers, savvy business types.
Long haul economy passengers – visiting friends and relatives, independent again.
Therefore segmenting them with Charter terminal may make sense. At Manchester there is a high % of charter more than 35% in peak months and that creates problems for the others. I stopped using charter airlines 16 years ago after been left stranded for 12 hours overnight in Malaga; I have no need of charter since the arrival of loco’s.
Manchester airport in my view still needs to adjust to a role in this century, in a competitive not regulated environment, as a large regional airport serving a diverse range of services. It’s a place in the main you fly from, not to, or through

[AUTOGLIDE]

Regarding the comment about the T1 baggage carousel being too full; I usually find the problem is simply that it's taking way too long for the passengers to pass through passport control, and hence their bags are backing up.
From experience of working and flying from T1 I personally think it is incapable of handling large A/C in any significant numbers.

[MANFlyer]

Apart from the fact that my post was twenty three lines long in response to your own original TWENTY FIVE (pots & kettles?),

You even went back to count, how sweet. :p Another humdimger single point post eh. Keep waffling fella.

Regarding the baggage issue, it's virtually irrelvant for me as I never take checked luggage except in the odd exceptional circumstance, or on holiday with the missus. On the last couple of such occassions they baggage has arrived refreshingly quickly compared to previous. As I said, prior to this weeks shambles the last few arrivals had been a pretty decent experience, although I can't remember the last time that escalator to take you to the car park bridge in T3 arrivals was working. Is that thing fixed yet ?. It's been out for months.

[j4ckos mate]

Off topic slightly,
did anyone get caught in the traffic at the cargo centre last night?

it was murder, the cars were being let out by the side of the romper

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

MANFlyer,

I am delighted that you wish to focus on the length of my posting rather than the serious points which I raise. But since you mention it, if my 23 lines making a serious point are "waffle", how do you label your 25 in which you insult a large proportion of MAN's customer base as "bucket and spade idiots"?

Your intolerant attitude towards your fellow passengers (who happen to be Manchester Airport's lifeblood) is shining forth from your posts; now you resort to personal insults ("keep waffling fella") rather than addressing the serious issues raised. I think that readers here have learned all they need to know about you.

Cheers, SHED.

[Mr A Tis]

Short:
I'm with Shed on this one.

[sparkysam]

So am i
Sparky

[MUFC_fan]

Add me to that list!

I can travel on business and holiday within a week of each other out of MAN whether in J or Y - I am still the same person!

[Trash_Hauler]

MANFlyer, what you seem to forget is whether someone is a business or leisure traveller is irrelevant. At the end of the day, they are all revenue for the airlines and the airport and its vendors. Do you honestly think that Starbucks gives a damn if you are going to Palma or to Abu Dhabi? Do you think they say... "Hey! This guy has a BUSINESS class ticket! Make his coffee better!" Of course they don't. The only people that it matters to what class of ticket you have bought is the airlines and the pax themselves. If you want business class amenities, then buy a business class ticket. MAN does in fact have many business facilities. In T3 you have the BD and Star Alliance lounge, a BE Lounge and a BA Lounge. In T1 you have the Servisair Lounge and the EK Lounge. Not so certain about T2 because I don't work over there but I am certain that they have adequate facilities as well. That said, the problem as I see it is that the so called "Business Passenger" (who more often than not is actually on a Y ticket) wants the airport to kowtow to their every demand when simply put they don't pay for it. Why should the airport make concessions for you when you yourself said that all you want is to efficiently get on your way. You yourself said that you lot aren't interested in shopping et al so why should the airport bother. You still need to get to where you are going and therefore like it or not, you will continue to use the airport. Leisure travellers on the other hand DO like the shopping. They DO like a bite to eat before their flight and are willing to pay that extra bit because it is all part of the airport experience. The simple fact is that approximately 65% of destinations served from MAN are destinations preferred by holiday makers. With the exception of LHR, AMS, JFK, LAX and other so called "world class hubs", most airports are just like MAN. There is nothing from stopping you getting on the Virgin Train services to London (they do leave every 15 minutes!) and flying from LHR.

If you need directions to The Station, just let me know!

[IB4138]

65% of destinations served from MAN are destinations preferred by holiday makers.

The problem for several people employed by the airport and airlines based at MAN is that they assume all the pax on these flights are holiday makers, when in reality they are not. Many of us are frequent fliers and travellers who DO NOT like the shopping at the airport. We DO NOT like a bite to eat before the flight, we are NOT willing to pay that extra bit because it is all part of the airport experience and we do not like being treated as once a year going on holiday people, who will put up with what is thrown at us.

Some of you at MAN need re-educating as to who makes up your passengers. The attitudes shown to some of us, who do not wear suits for business or travel other than for holiday purposes is appalling.

[mickyman]

IB4138

Reading your post I'm wondering where your ideal airport is -
if it exists atall! Please enlighten me as too your 'airport of
choice'.

MM

[Ian Brooks]

Lets face it no one is the same, some want to direct from entrance to the aircraft
others like to a bit of shopping some have made quite a journey to the airport
and are hungry and thirsty and some just want something to do whilst they wait
because they are early or the flight delayed

Ian

[IB4138]

Please enlighten me as too your 'airport of
choice'.

Anywhere where you aren't mickyman. :rolleyes:

Seems you must get some pleasure by posting irrelevent, sarcastic, drivel about other people's posts with no input to whatever subjects are under discussion.


Correct Mr Brooks.

There are times when one airside outlet may be of assistance on a journey. However generalising and trying to place people in specific type of traveller categories should be discouraged,as assumptions are then made affecting future planning at airports and by airlines based on this misinformation.

[al446]

Please excuse my presumption in leaping to the defence of IB4138 as his/her post encapsulates my feelings. The post was not about defining anybody's perfect airport, it was against the small mindedness of some (many?) who post on here with a supposedly superior knowledge, and attitude, just because they work for an airport/airline/travel agent and make sweeping generalisations to try to prove a narrow minded and often spurious point.

Ian Brooks has it right in saying, essentially, that everyone is an individual and should be treated as such. By all means make the facilities available but do not expect to coral us into a demographic and cry when we don't use them. Personally I think MAN shops are overpriced.

Almost nobody can say where or what their perfect airport is, it depends on why the individual is travelling. Sometimes I am 'bucket & spade' but the chances of me shelling out for an overpriced latte in order to enhance my 'airport experience' are less than nil, most times I just want to get past the security bozos and to the gate as quickly as poss, especially in the case of UK airports.

[al446]

Apologies, was typing while you were posting.

[IB4138]

No need to appologise.

Your input is relevent.

[Ian Brooks]

Wow Mr Brooks I like it!

Ian

[MUFC_fan]

Personally I think MAN shops are overpriced.


They are VERY over priced and they can do this because they simply have a monopoly!

Even WHSmith's charge more!

[mickyman]

IB4138

I plead quilty to the charges.

MM

[AircraftOperations]

The escalator in T3 up from arrivals was moving on Wednesday when my buddy collected me and took me to his car. We went over the bridge and there then seemed to be another escalator out of action/being overhauled on the other side of the road. Looked more long term than the "arrivals" escalator work ever had.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi IB4138,

I think that the message to be taken from this whole debate is that all Manchester Airport's customers deserve to be treated with respect and courtesy regardless of the category of travel they have booked. It is important not to pick out any group of people and deem them to be inferior to other groups, resulting in a preferential service for a select few. Customers who have paid the same user-charges deserve equal treatment. I recognize that those who pay extra for first-class or fast-track type products can expect more, but that is understandable.

The key is to have a range of facilities and services available for those who want to use them. You don't want to use shops: no problem, nobody will oblige you to do so. But many people do want the shops and it is great that their needs are met also. Some passengers like to book themselves into a business lounge: great, it is available for those who want it and not an obligatory extra for everybody else. We all have different requirements of our journey through the airport. Hopefully our personal expectations can be met by provision of those facilities which suit us as individuals, but not by the exclusion of facilities which are appreciated by others. So, shops/catering provided for those who want them, no obligation to use them upon those who don't. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.

Actually, I suggest that MAN does a pretty good job of recognizing the diversity of its customer base. It is impossible to keep a diverse group of people 100% happy in a single space (eg. a departure lounge), but generally MAN does offer the facilities I would expect for either business or leisure travel. The airport has recently completed an expensive programme of terminal refurbishments to enhance the customer experience, and if you read back on this thread you will find postings by contributors who have written positively about the improvements. Yes, MAN isn't perfect - it still has leaky roofs, disfunctional lifts and coin-slot baggage trolleys - but it compares favourably with many other airports which I regularly use. And the investment at MAN has not been limited to revenue generating facilities only (shops etc.). The complete re-modeling of the security areas is one example of a particularly large investment by the airport which is not directly income-generating.

The main area where I diverge from your point of view regards the attitudes of MAN's customer-facing staff. You report that you have encountered appalling attitudes from the airport staff; clearly you have had bad experiences and I take you at your word. But I must balance your report by advising that I have found MA's own staff to be courteous and friendly when I use the airport (and I travel frequently). I always dress for comfort when traveling, and if a suit is required I change into it at my destination hotel if possible. I have never noticed any difference in the way I have been treated at MAN whether dressed smart or casual.

Of course, there may be a need to widen the interpretation of who we mean by Manchester Airport staff (I was referring to security and retail staff in the paragraph above). At the check-in stage there are certain carriers which enforce rigid luggage and documentation rules which can result in a very stressful and confrontational experience for some unwary passengers. I can well understand how those affected could leave MAN with a very negative overall impression. However, these carriers are not unique to MAN. But referring to MAG's own employees (not me, by the way!), I have no complaints about the attitudes I have encountered myself.

Ultimately, the MAN passenger experience is not perfect (it can't be). Many of the carriers operating there have wide diversity of customers even on the same flight (business, vacation, visiting friends/relations - all in one). But the terminals represent a close to best-case compromise considering the diversity of that customer base (something for everyone, no obligation to use unwanted facilities). If any PPRuNe contributors have particular suggestions for further improvements, why not write to the airport directly with your ideas? I'm sure they appreciate all constructive feedback - just avoid "close all shops now!" or "ban all holiday flights!" and the like.

Best regards to all (and apologies to those who resent long postings!),

SHED.

[Trash_Hauler]

Couldn't have said it any better myself SHED!

[IB4138]

Good post shed.

However it is not just the staff of the airport who need in some cases looking at... a few are in my opinion unemployable with terrible attitudes, but still have customer facing jobs......but the airlines themselves, who's handling agents and their own staff, including cabin staff based at MAN, have the " you are a holidaymaker" mentality . They seem unable to comprehend that a British Citizen, may not live in the UK and are infact going home to their country of residence.

They have attitudes that I will not put up with, being an expat, do not accept or receive here in Spain and I will be vocal about them, instead of cowtowing to the perceived "norm" that a great majority of UK dwellers do.

Even customer service staff at airlines sidestep written complaints about specific members of cabin staff, aircraft seating, cancelled flights and handling agents. They are not alone in such behaviour in the UK transport industry, as Northern Rail will also not reply to complaints about their staff. It appears to be a British disease these days.

Don't get me wrong. I like using MAN and in particular T3 with Easyjet, who now have all my business, when I fly to and from the UK. I will admit to being a "plus card "holder, but that suits me. There are however certain individuals at MAN, who I would probably count on the fingers of one hand, who go out of their way to be obstructive to passengers. Complaints about them have no effect, they still reappear at the airport, instead of at the Job Center.

Strangely enough, I do not have recollections of airport staff at Gatwick or Luton, with such poor attitudes to pax.

[Suzeman]

An interesting discussion about passenger types....

Please remember that we wouldn't be having the discussion at all if it weren't for the leisure pax that used the airport in its growing years -the 70s 80s and 90s. Inclusive Tour pax were the backbone of the airports business - if I remember correctly contributing around 65% of the throughput. Add to this the leisure pax on scheduled services and about 80% of the pax were leisure orientated.

It was they who helped the Airport make a profit, much of which was ploughed back into investment in facilities which in those days did make the airport one to be proud of. Without them, the Airport wouldn't be half the size it is today.

And as has already been said, a wide range of facilities provided means there is something there for everyone.

But it only takes one bad experience to put the punters off and it doesn't matter whether it is the facilities or poor customer relations from any staff - whether they are Airport Company, Handling Agents or whoever is irrelevant. I'm afraid it seems to be the general culture today not to treat customers with respect. How many times have you been served in a shop by someone who is talking to his/her mate on the next till rather than paying attention to you? If only customer facing organisations would realise this, they would start to stand out from the crowd.

Dealing with the public is very difficult, but staff should be properly trained to treat customers with respect and to be able to de-fuse the inevitable conflicts that will arise from time to time. But then training of this type costs money doesn't it?

Perhaps an old fashioned view, but I do feel quite good when something has gone wrong and then has been resolved amicably - service recovery we used to call it. Perhaps some University could run a degree course in it - it would be a damn sight more useful than some of the courses you see advertised nowadays.

Suzeman

[MancRy]

IB4138 as a member of MAN based airline crew (Easyjet funnily enough) I can atleast confirm that all of my colleagues are aware of the diverse range of passengers that we carry, even on a TFS but there are certain routes (TFS is one of them) where you know that 90% are travelling on leisure. It's not a hard one to work out and neither is it necassarilly a sweeping statement. MAN is a huge outbound leisure airport, remember the charter heyday..........Those passengers are still there and if anything they travel more frequently. So in essence, MAN probably is more leisure orientated than perhaps other airports. That said, we all know that MAN serves VFR/Expats/Business etc etc and I think it has the right balance. So what if you have to walk through duty/tax free retail space, just keep walking and you will arrive into the departure lounge, nobody is forcing you.

Many do still enjoy the airport experience. My partner always likes to be at the airport early because he is one of those people and he certainly isn't alone. Consequently I think it is rather insulting that some on the forum believe that this is the minority. The truth is, in the era of a stressful airport experience, retail can be very relaxing to some. I can't deny that they can be pricy but people still spend their money there. Furthermore, many love Costa Coffee on the High Street so why not at the airport? If it wasn't profitable, they wouldn't be there and the same goes for other retail concessions.

Finally, back to a comment made by IB4138.............I actually agree with, to an extent, certain company's policies regarding customer complaints. In most cases it's customer's word V's employee and I think it is morally correct to give the employee the benefit of the doubt (unless several complaints are received). Secondly, there are times when staff are complained about because they have been involved in a decision that didn't go the customer's way, hence it's the staff member's fault. Or what about someone who had a bad flight and decides to complain but throws in the claim that staff were rude just to add weight to the case? You only have to read some airline reviews to pick up on such behaviour. From experience, bad apples are usually weeded out from within.

[TURIN]

Just to confirm the SQ rumour. Continuing the 3 per week.

Also heard tonight that the third EK will be a 330 not 777. :eek:

[IB4138]

MancRy

It was the pigeonholing of ALL leisure passengers DO like".........." that I objected to and nothing more. It is a generalisation and mindset of some that needs correction. It is also true that some staff both at the airport and airline cabin crew treat all leisure travellers as UK based holidaymakers. One particular airline and it's crews based at MAN is particularly bad for this. It is a matter that requires attention by management and trainers.

At no point have I said take away the shops and other retail outlets. However, I do not like the present trend of them being so "in your face". Your partner may enjoy the "airport experience" and good for them. I however do not enjoy the UK airport experience, preferring the Spanish layout of terminals and the less intense atmosphere. That is a personal opinion.: each one to their own.

Yes there are times when I will purchase a drink and have my favorite watering holes in airports. Lloyds at Gatwick North and the bar in the center of T3 at MAN for instance. However, to bring up Costa Coffee!! Their outlet landside in T3 at MAN, oposite the bmi desks, was well known for it's coffee, especially by bmi staff and quite a few regular pax, for having what could be referred to as having a moving effect on a persons nether regions, within half an hour of consumption!

As for remembering the charter heyday. My first flight from MAN was on a Balair DC6 to Basle back in the 60s(for Smiths Tours of Wigan), followed by flights on BMI(Derby Airways) Argonauts and One-elevens, plus those of Laker, Comets of BEA Airtours and DanAir. So yes, I remember it well. I was involved in financing and unfortunately repossession of several aircraft for a living. Have things changed for the better over the years? Some have and some have not.

If you are rostered for AGP- MAN on 15th September or MAN-AGP on 20th September, find me and introduce yourself.

[TSR2]

treat all leisure travellers as UK based holidaymakers

I don't understand what you are getting at with this statement. Sounds like you are infering that UK based holidaymakers are somehow inferior to non UK based.

[IB4138]

That is your interpretation of that particular set of words, which you have taken out of context TSR2.

Let me try to explain further with a few examples.

Cabin announcement on landing at AGP: " Please remember that on YOUR RETURN flight to Manchester......" Makes the assumption that you will be making a return flight BACK to MAN with that airline. The announcement is never made on a flight from AGP landing at MAN.

Cabin senior, on realising that you are not ammused with her crass throw away comments, on your flight having been changed and not having the seats paid for, on boarding at MAN " Why are you not happy, you will soon be on holiday"........"no I'm going home!"


On reporting damaged bag in the UK: "Can I have your UK address please?"
" I live abroad. I have given you that address " You MUST have a UK address, as you are British. now can I have that?"

"Welcome to Malaga.........enjoy your holiday!" You never get "Welcome to Manchester, enjoy your holiday/stay."

" How long have you been away on holiday for?" question asked by member of HMC&R at Manchester.

Car park bus driver at MAN " When you return from holiday sir, the pick up point is....." "I'm not coming back " As I said sir, when you return...."

As regards aircraft crew mainly found, with those who work for carriers some days on scheduled services and other days on charters.

It's a mindset and training problem.

[mickyman]

IB4138

Excuse me but you sound like the passenger from hell!!

I actually feel sorry for anybody who has you on their
aeroplane - passenger or crew.

I am sure that every reader of your last post will have
an impression of you now.

Well done.

MM

[Envoy320]

Clearly....you are in the massive MINORITY.......

why would anyone change their announcements to suit this?

Just get over it and enjoy the fact that you live in the sun and we have to come home to this god awful weather!!

[IB4138]

There you go, two UK dwellers who "put up" with their lot and help make up the silent majority!

I thought twice before posting examples of what I meant, as I feared a reaction like that. However the case needed presenting. If you have something positive and constructive to input/counter with, then fine.

Why should an airline not have different announcements for it's scheduled and charter services? It would seem to make sense.

However trading insults is not the route to go down, if you don't like what is posted.

[mickyman]

IB4138

'I am sure that every reader of your last post will have
an impression of you now.'

Enough said!

MM

[IB4138]

I actually feel sorry for anybody who has you on their
aeroplane - passenger or crew.

I am sure that every reader of your last post will have
an impression of you now.'

you sound like the passenger from hell!!

I actually am very quiet when flying MM. I make mental notes of any problem and if serious enough write to the airline/airport concerned. I am no trouble to crew or fellow passengers.

The examples I used, apart from, one, are minor annoyances that have occured, but help to prove my point.

How many more times do you need telling to stop attacking people because you simply don't like what they say?

I find your quotations above to be personally offensive and without cause.

[Envoy320]

...the case needed presenting

It Didn't...

I make mental notes of any problem and if serious enough write to the airline/airport concerned

You really need to relax a bit more...

Why should an airline not have different announcements for it's scheduled and charter services? It would seem to make sense.


If it made sense...they would have thought of it. Simple.

It's a mindset and training problem

It isn't at all. It's just not necessary.

If it were necessary to make a PA for you, because you live in Spain and are not on holiday, then it is necessary to make a tailor made PA to every passenger on board that aircraft that are doing different things other than going on holiday.

"enjoy your business meeting"...."hope the funeral goes well"...."congratulations"..."comiserations"...."happy wedding day"....

The Announcement would need to start the wheels left the ground so as to fit it all in....

Just relax, enjoyu the ride, and don't get all fret up about a PA that is not specifically aimed at an individual......

[Skipness One Echo]

He's not. He's upset becasue it's aimed at a group of which he is not part. His point is, it's not neutral. Imagine going to Paris on business every week and being repeatedly asked if you enjoyed the Eiffel Tower....

[Envoy320]

Imagine going to Paris on business every week and being repeatedly asked if you enjoyed the Eiffel Tower....

I assume he doesnt come to the uk EVERY week.....

does it REALLY matter that much....honestly?

[IB4138]

Envoy. Now those multi announcements you suggest are clearly not necessary and are being plain silly.

On scheduled flights, there is no need to make any mention of holiday/return flight and a simple eg:"welcome to Manchester/Malaga" with additional local information,as required. Yes, by all means mention, if deemed necessary, that if you are taking another flight with this airline in the future, then remember....quote cabin baggage policy. ..That's all that is required.

The problem in the UK is that some airlines want their feet in both the scheduled and the charter camps and think that "one size, metaphorically speaking, fits all".

I assume he doesnt come to the uk EVERY week.....
No, but usually once a month. I'm pleased that Skippyness sees my point.

I have, as stated previously, got away from these annoying occurances by flying, mainly with Easyjet and occasionally BA, to the UK. In Spain it's Spanair and Vueling.

[Envoy320]

IB.....

There IS need to mention things to passengers these days due to the society we live in and people being quite happy to take anyone and everyone to court at the drop of a hat for not being told things that most people would see as common sense.....

Remember...you may be travelling on a scheduled service but from/to a predeominantly "holiday" based destination for uk residents.

And to avoid an airline because of an anouncement that says enjoy your holiday when you are in fact - going home - well...that just sums you up completely.

[Evileyes]

ENOUGH!

Two pages worth of beating a dead horse only vaguely related to the thread topic is quite beyond reason.

Further discussion of pet peeves, announcements or comments by Cabin Crews, Flight Deck Crews, or Airline Ground Staff is not welcome and will draw moderator action.

The Mods.

[mickyman]

Evileyes

Thankyou.

MM

[1545]

Anyone out there who knows what equipment operates the Wednesday 0700 TOM to Rhodes?

[MUFC_fan]

767-300 as is the evening (20:55) flight

[1545]

MUFC_Fan - Thanks a lot for the info.

[MUFC_fan]

No probs.

If you are lucky you will get a TOM long haul configured a/c with IFE etc. I think the FCA aircraft only fly long haul but if they do do some shorter flights then that is the aircraft you want! I'll be on board a TOM 767 in a couple of weeks time!:} Just hope it has IFE...

P.S. For anyone who wants MAN schedules and aircraft please see:

timetables.oag.com/MAN

[1545]

MUFC Fan - Even better info. Cheers.

[bjones4]

I went through MAN on Saturday (Twice after a day in Dublin) and upon returning on FR556, we were bussed around to T1 arrivals and much to our surprise, there was no form of immigration, it was straight into the baggage hall and then through customs and out. Is there any particular reason for that?

Also, just want to say what a pleasure it was to go through, Saturday morning it was packed, there was a fairly lengthy queue for security but it was moving at a fair old pace, all the channels were open, we must have been through and on the other side within 10 minutes of entering the building.

[rutankrd]

Uk and Eire operate a common travel arrangement (Much older than Schengan)
This allows UK, Eire and other EU citizens to travel paper free. (No passport or ID document or immigration necessary)

However customs and excise formalities still apply and therefore is an international flight.

Other national are however supposed to go through immigration proceedings as applicable.

[BHX5DME]

July Pax - 2,048,361 down 10.64% or 244k pax on July 08

July Movements - 16,473 down 15.52% or 3,027 fewer movements than July 08

July Freight - 12,097 tonnes down 28.93%

Pax 12m end 31.07.09 - 19,804,170 down 10.65%

[Skipness One Echo]

You can't fly into Dublin without a passport. Honest, try it.

[TechProblem]

When the new baggage hall was opened, UK/Eire arrivals were kept apart from International.
Hence the stray baggage belt (I forget the number) to your left as you arrive off the bus.

I think the reason it is not in use, is that the only other toilets were being upgraded. So the toilets next to UK/Eire belt indeed to be used by all.

Only reason for the bus at the moment is to stop you going through immagration to keep the numbers down. :rolleyes:

TP

[scrapy]

From Easyjet Forum

Slots applied for MAN - DUS 2*daily

Surely one airline will lose out if Easy do start we already have BE and LH on the route + FR to Weeze, can't be that much demand??

[MUFC_fan]

LH have the connecting traffic as DUS is a focus city with three long haul based a/c and a number of short haul. FR haven't really affected the current DUS figures so must be serving a different market.

I would guess BE would miss out. They should stick to wiping out small regional airlines as opposed to taking on the real big boys if I am being honest.

U2 will do well with low fares and business timed routes which these flights look very much like.

[Skipness One Echo]

LH have the connecting traffic as DUS is a focus city with three long haul based a/c and a number of short haul.

There can't be many if any who would connect to LH long haul at DUS going West.

[cesare.caldi]

LH long range from DUS:

EWR daily
ORD daily
YYZ daily seasonal summer
MIA daily seasonal winter

All operated by A340

[MUFC_fan]

When you search on LH website - they will send you via either of the three to NYC for example. I suppose it doesn't matter where you transit: FRA/DUS/MUC. I would assume DUS would be easier than the other two!

[cesare.caldi]

I agree. I flow MXP-DUS-PEK with AB and DUS is an easy and friendly airport, with no many congestion like others big hub.

[lexxity]

Had a friend who used DUS in May this year with LH, twenty minute connection. He made it, through immigration and with his bag. Arrived early at MAN. :ok:

[mufc4evr]

It also says that they have applied for FRA-MAN 2xDaily.

How many routes is that for U2 ex MAN?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Careful, folks! There is a very big difference between applying for airport runway slots and actually launching a new scheduled service. DUS and FRA are not 'in the bag'. What has come to light regarding EasyJet so far should be viewed as an expression of interest in new services rather than a commitment to introduce them. And its a very big assumption to suppose that runway slots will be forthcoming at Frankfurt in particular; Dusseldorf offers a more realistic prospect.

However, I must confess to some slight disappointment that EasyJet's interest (or at least that which we know about) appears to focus on routes already well served from MAN (I include CPH and MUC in this). We risk trading one carrier for another with this blueprint, whilst cities such as Berlin, Venice and Warsaw are unserved from MAN. Then there are Madrid and Lisbon with token seasonal operations only ex-MAN. (Just to pre-empt the usual suspects: yes, we know that there are other airports in the UK which offer these destinations, but MAN is a large and distinct market regardless of the element of overlap).

Oh well. I suppose we should be grateful for any interest in new services in the current climate!

[mybrico]

but most of these destinations are well served from LPL and the catchment is the same, we live in a new world of competition.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Congratulations, mybrico. ("the catchment is the same")

You are the first to post the usual comment which I pre-empted in my piece. This discussion has been debated about a thousand times before on here (read back) so I will keep my response brief.

The LPL and MAN catchment areas *overlap* geographically, but they are far from identical. The LPL and MAN catchment areas *overlap* economically - there are customers who will travel further from one catchment area into another in return for a lower fare. But there are also many people for whom one of these airports is a convenient option and the other simply is not. The catchment is NOT the same.

In the case of MAN, I contend that the market which lies outside the MAN/LPL overlap is itself sufficient to support services to *principal* destinations (in which I include Berlin, Venice, Warsaw, Madrid and Lisbon). Other more marginal destinations such as Bydgoscz or Riga would require a larger catchment (but that is why I didn't mention them amongst my examples). Variations on this theme can also be applied to the catchment overlaps between MAN/LBA, MAN/BHX, MAN/LHR and so on.

I stand by my point that I would rather see a new scheduled service launched from MAN to an unserved destination (eg. Berlin) than a well served one (eg. Frankfurt).

Cheers, SHED.

[dwlpl]

The Government doc The Future Development of Air Transport on the UK : North of England (2002) had this re population catchment areas.

1 hour road:
LPL 5-7 million
MAN 5-7 million

2 hour road:
LPL 13-15 million
MAN 15-17 million

1 hour rail:
LPL 0.4-0.6 million
MAN 1-2 million

2 hour rail:
LPL 2-3 million
MAN 6-7 million

Since that report Liverpool South Parkway (10 minutes by shuttle bus to LPL) has been built and has direct rail services to Norwich for example.

Having said all that they did predict that by 2015 the passenger throughput forecast for LPL (2008 5.3million) ranged from 3.6-5.8 million and MAN (2008 21.2million) is 34.8-42.3 million.

[eggc]

EZY had slots in the system for CDG & ZUR, but they were a cover story for the last round of new routes which were announced soon after to CPH etc.

They obviously do not want the competition to know their real intentions until flights are released.

In that case FRA & MUC will probably turn into PMI & ALC !!!

Ryanair are also said to have numerous new slots in the system, aswell.

Time will tell....

[Mr A Tis]

I tend to agree with Shed, I do hope the EZY FRA & DUS are a "cover".
For me there are obvious gaps. Berlin is one, we once had 3 carriers on that route at the same time & they forced each other off leaving none. Many people make connections from MAN to Vienna, & a replacement for TUIs Stuttgart would not be amiss & the glaring gap of no Polish destinations at all from MAN. I just hope they don't saturate & thus put in jeapordy any existing routes. I dont think Munich & Copenhagen should have been their first choices either.

[Vuelo]

There's no money to be made from Polish routes anymore. They won't be back, LPL have that market sorted.

MAN would do well to attract carriers such as TAP, Iberia, Austrian etc so that the routes to their hubs can also be attractive to O&D markets.



As an example, there will be no flights this winter to Lisbon from either MAN or LPL! TAP could fill that void.

[mickyman]

Vuelo & shed....

We could all post 'wish lists' of routes that SHOULD and COULD
be served by Man/Lpl etc....routes that were once served stopped
for good reasons.

MM

[Momentary Lapse]

Eire arriving flights don't present to Immigration because they don't need to. In fact, to present them to Immigration would be an offence. In the old config of T1 Arrivals, those pax were guided around the HMI desks, where they were presented to Police for counter-terrorism checks instead. Some Eire arriving pax used to hang back, merge with a stream of mainland Europe arrivals, and present their passport to HMI, to avoid being presented to Police. I wonder why? :cool:

However, HMC view the borders differently, so Eire arriving flights are presented to them after baggage reclaim. They also still have to pass a Police post for counter-terrorism reasons.

The new belt is number 7. Whoever designed that area is a genius; it's a masterpiece of flexibility and space-efficiency. Seriously.

[Adola69]

MM, I understand your statement "....routes that were once served stopped
for good reasons", may be true, but it does not follow that these cannot be re-visited at a later date surely?
You'll be telling me next that my expectations that CP Air, British Eagle, Invicta, Silver City, Dan-Air, Transglobe, All-Air, Transportflug, Lloyd International etc may one day return as being too optomistic!!?? - surely not?:O

[TSR2]

Transglobe ...... now that name brings back some memories

[Charlie Roy]

In fact, to present them to Immigration would be an offence.

Are you sure?
I've often witnessed passengers from flights within the UK-Ireland Common Travel Area being subjected to passport control for practical reasons. I've been checked arriving in Dublin from Cork many a time...

[Momentary Lapse]

Is that in the same way an airline requests a passport as proof of ID, or actually to HM Immigration?

Dublin to Cork is a domestic flight in all senses.

[Mouser]

Possible industrial action by ground handling at Manchester next bank holiday, according to NW Tonight. Unusual that, negative news regarding Manchester that was actually broadcast.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

BMI reports that MAN-LHR will continue to be operated on a basic 7x Daily frequency for the Winter period. Some flights will be retimed to provide enhanced connections to BMI's onward services, with Tel Aviv and Beirut attracting particular mention. A mid-morning departure is introduced at 1050.

As this news item cannot be construed to have any possible negative connotations for either Ryanair or Liverpool Airport, lets see if I can escape a sniping sarcastic comment from my stalker Mickyman on this occasion. I think we've all cottoned on that you post with an agenda, sir!

SHED.

[lexxity]

bmi mean actually reinstating the BD587 at 1050 not introducing.

[MUFC_fan]

I will be inbound very early September 1st to MAN - the a/c will be coming from MAN on August 31st - will this flight operate?!:confused:

I don't want to be stranded in a tropical place any longer than I have to be - I'll miss work!:ok:

TOM from/to T2.

[Suzeman]

Quote:
In fact, to present them to Immigration would be an offence.
Are you sure?
I've often witnessed passengers from flights within the UK-Ireland Common Travel Area being subjected to passport control for practical reasons. I've been checked arriving in Dublin from Cork many a time...

Charlie Roy - Momentary Lapse is quite correct. And as he pointed out earlier, Dublin to Cork is an Eire domestic flight under Irish regulations and so has nothing to do with UK rules, HM Immigration or the UK Border Service or whatever it is called now.


Possible industrial action by ground handling at Manchester next bank holiday, according to NW Tonight

Anyone care to let us know which company this is and which airlines would be affected ? This may help alleviate - or aggravate :eek: - MUFC's concerns.


Unusual that, negative news regarding Manchester that was actually broadcast.

Mouser - you obviously have some axe to grind here. Care to explain for the benefit of us ignorant ones?

Suzeman

[Suzeman]

Anyone care to let us know which company this is and which airlines would be affected ?

Partly answering my own question, here is the article from Crain's. Seems that if ASIG are involved fuel will be a difficulty for all. Interesting that 3 separate company disputes seem to be being rolled into potential action at the same time - which just happens to coincide with a bank holiday. :uhoh:

Well at least that's one of the media's travel preoccupations at bank holiday time ticked off - the others will of course be the rush for people to get away and the weather..:}

Suzeman


Crain's Article

Baggage handlers, terminal cleaners and ground staff responsible for refueling aircraft at Manchester Airport are being balloted about potential strike action in a dispute over pay.

If the vote is approved, the workers’ union, Unite, said that strike action could take place during the peak August bank holiday weekend.

The 300 workers being balloted based at Manchester Airport are employed by Swissport, Rentokil/Initial and ASIG. The union says that disputes are over plans to impose a pay freeze and to renege on a pay deal agreed in 2008.

"We are not oblivious to the economic climate, and understand the impact any industrial action would have on travellers during the busy summer period, but these employers are asking already low-waged workers to bear the full brunt of companies' attempts to adjust costs,” said Unite regional officer Lawrence Chapple-Gill.

“Unite is prepared to work with the employers to find short-term solutions in the current economic climate. To avoid any potential industrial action, we urge the companies to start negotiating seriously and reward our members for their continued commitment.”

The union will announce the ballot results in the week 17th August 2009.

[Mouser]

Suzeman, I have my opinion of Manchester based BBC TV, and I don't have explain or justify my views about it to you or anyone else.

[rkenyon]

My god, a scouser with a chip on their shoulder, who'd have thunk it :)

[rapidman47]

My god, a scouser with a chip on their shoulder, who'd have thunk it http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gifand with very good reason I might add. You know I moved up to Liverpool from down south ie London a few years back. I did not want to move and I am very happy i did. I can not under stand what people have against the city (Liverpool). I find the people are the most likable and friendly I have ever met and the city itself is the jewel in the crown of Northen England ,and I am very proud to live and work here:D

[Bagso]

jewel in the crown of Northern England

I need to get my laughing policeman tape out again.....!

There is no comparison with Manchester !

If you cannot live in London then like it or not, the next best place by a countrymile is Manchester !

It has everything and in some respects is a microcosm of how vibrant London is !

Liverpool is way behind and is just another very mediocre nondescript regional city like Birmingham, Leeds, Bristol. Newcastle etc.

PS It is now officially the second city as well although the media are still waiting to catch up on that one.

[MUFC_fan]

I don't think we should go onto a Manchester v Liverpool thread but I personally think the best city outside of London is Edinburgh!:ok:

Anyway - when comparing demand, MAN is much higher than LPL and that is how it is at the moment and I don't think we should go any further down this path!

[AndyH52]

Bagso there are comparisons a-plenty between Liverpool and Manchester both good and bad, but this is not the place to do it - it's a thread about Manchester Airport so can someone try and get us back on track again please!!!!

[Vuelo]

You lot are so rattled by LPL. It's kinda funny, but mainly...



:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:BORING:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh ::ugh:

[Betablockeruk]

Whoa! Not again. Must think of Manchester Airport related issue quickly :uhoh:

I know. Air Livery opens doors this Sat with arrival of AWACS for repaint.

Cool :cool:

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Must think of Manchester Airport related issue quickly

Agreed. All this LPL/MAN willy waving is tedious and infantile; no wonder the Mods have to wade in so often. :mad:

Now that RYR have announced LBA, is it fair to assume with LPL and LBA as bases, MAN will probably only appear on their route network as a non-base destination (Thankyou, there IS a God, if so true) ?

Does this give EZY an opportunity for more concerted expansion at MAN, and sooner?

I always thought traffic levels would be insufficient to sustain RYR and EZY together at MAN, let alone the incumbent carriers also.

Is RYR's announcement of an LBA base to the benefit of MAN, long term, in possibly giving EZY a clear run at ultimately becomming the no. 1 lo-co carrier at MAN?

[MUFC_fan]

Now that RYR have announced LBA, is it fair to assume with LPL and LBA as bases, MAN will probably only appear on their route network as a non-base destination (Thankyou, there IS a God, if so true) ?

Most likely in the near future.


Does this give EZY an opportunity for more concerted expansion at MAN, and sooner?

I think they may not speed up expansion on this news. They have already announced more routes and slot interests have also shown they are willing to expand where possible.


I always thought traffic levels would be insufficient to sustain RYR and EZY together at MAN, let alone the incumbent carriers also.


A number of airports can, most smaller than MAN! One of those being LPL!:ok:


Is RYR's announcement of an LBA base to the benefit of MAN, long term, in possibly giving EZY a clear run at ultimately becomming the no. 1 lo-co carrier at MAN?

Which airline is currently? If we are classing Monarch's scheduled flights then they would be in the running plus Jet2 and FlyBE - I think they have someway to go before then...

[Bagso]

"Agreed. All this LPL/MAN willy waving is tedious and infantile; no wonder the Mods have to wade in so often".

This contributor is certainly not rattled by the City Of Liverpool, infact I view it as of little significance personally !

I would however concede that the MAN V LIV airport argument is a different matter and ALWAYS warrants further examination, not least given the impact that Liverpool and indeed to a lesser extent Leeds and Blackpool Airports have potentionally had on Manchester Airports traffic volumes in recent years. It took Peel Holdings (which just for the record is a Manchester Based Company) to turn a loss-making white elephant previously owned some years back by that beacon of capitalism "Merseyside City Council" into a major international airport. There is little doubt that this hit Manchester Airports traffic growth and remains a valid on-going discussion point on this thread.

BUT if people are going to wade in with blatant comments about the city itself in more general terms, on what is after all a discussion group about MANCHESTER AIRPORT and related topics I do feel that there s/b at least some right of reply !

[Scottie Dog]

"Air Livery opens doors this Sat with arrival of AWACS for repaint."

As already quoted, Air Livery open their doors this coming weekend. What I did not aprpeciate - until informed in another forum - is that Air Livery have apparantly closed their facility at Bistol Filton. If this is correct, and I have no reason to doubt the fact, then Manchester is their only wide-bodied paint shop.

[rapidman47]

It took Peel Holdings (which just for the record is a Manchester Based Company) to turn a loss-making white elephant Wrong again it was Direct Holidays and Easyjet who set LJLA on its way. may I also say all the coments from my last post are from Manchester ect but not Liverpool nuf said:ugh:I can remember then also Manchester didnt want anything to do with easyjet. how the mighty have fallen:E

[Suzeman]

It took Peel Holdings (which just for the record is a Manchester Based Company) to turn a loss-making white elephant Wrong again it was Direct Holidays and Easyjet who set LJLA on its way

Rapidman 47

Your enthusiasm for Liverpool is commendable. But please get your facts right. Bagso is quite correct. To deny the role of Peel in the early development of Liverpool is just crazy. Direct Holidays started at LPL in 1995 but Peel took a 76% holding in 1997, the same year that Easy started ops there. They invested heavily in facilities which attracted business and captured the boom in lo-cost travel, something that MAN did not do until some years later. They took over complete ownership of the airport in 2001. The LPL airport website has all the facts.

From 1997 onwards, it is undoubtedly the case that LPL took traffic away from both MAN and the wider North of England where other airports did not offer the low cost option.

Now MAN has finally got a balance of different types of flights for all types of punter; lo-cost, legacy carriers, long haul, IT and of course cargo.

Let's be thankful we have two thriving airports - or should that be 3 with BPL? - in this part of the world and leave the willy waving to other discussion boards.

Suzeman

[lplsprog]

Forgive me if I am wrong but isn't Peel a Salford based company?

[IB4138]

Head Office:

Peel Dome,
The Trafford Centre,
Manchester M17 8PL

They actually originate in Bury
1920 Peel Mills incorporated as a textile spinning company in Bury, Lancashire., which was then in Lancashire, but is now part of Greater Manchester, as, for that matter is Salford..

All quotes from Peel Holdings website.

Don't know what you are trying to prove lplsprog?

Peel Group are investors in the NorthWest and other parts of the UK as well.

Hope that answers your query. :rolleyes:

[Momentary Lapse]

And some of the big players in Peel were previously MAPLC employees. I can think of three without even trying.

That's just a statement, with no loyalty either way.

[Bucephalus]

The quicker we reduce the reliance on having to travel via the London airports the better, whether that be from LPL, MAN or BPL!!

[rapidman47]

The quicker we reduce the reliance on having to travel via the London airports the better, whether that be from LPL, MAN or BPL!!well said at last someone with no prob with any of the nw airports I thought i would never see it on this forum:D

[dwlpl]

The quicker we reduce the reliance on having to travel via the London airports the better, whether that be from LPL, MAN or BPL!!

Thats not a problem from the Liverpool view point.

[Ian Brooks]

Air Livery opens for business
The Manchester facility accepted its 1st aircraft this morning an E3 Awacs
Hope all works well for you new guys

Ian B

[spannersatcx]

VS will be putting a 744 in there in September.

[AircraftOperations]

Read the following on TASManchester....

Monday 31st
Fedex commence new 4 x weekly(Mon-Thu) BFS/CDG & EXT/CDG services with SWM – FDX9803 ETA 18.25; ETD 19.10: FDX9805 ETA 18.00; ETD 18.30

I assume the "SWM" means a Metroliner aircraft type? If yes, whose are leasing for these flights?

[mmeteesside]

Surely they won't be sending an ATR72 + 2 Metro's to CDG?
As for whose Metro's they'll be, my vote would go to Swiftair (if they have any spare?) or Trans Euro Air (using Aeronova and/or Binair) ?

[take-off]

Are flybe doing MAN to PMI today ? Is this a one off? Showing on AENA website.

[JetRob]

Looking at scheduled on the manchester airport website: Manchester Airport : Timetables (http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/MANFlightInfo/SearchFlights) - Other website was completely different, this one however is right.

It appears there is no record of a Flybe doing a flight to PMI.

[Cloud1]

Yes thats right its a summer seasonal charter service, been operating since start of summer season on Saturdays

[RoyHudd]

Yaaawn...............

[BillTheCoach]

Why are so many of the moving walkways on the skylink not operating? They seem to have been locked out of use with no one making any attempt to repair or replace defective equipment for months? Do OTIS not actually have a SLA with MAplc? :rolleyes:

[MUFC_fan]

Is TOM's biggest network route MAN-DLM? I have just looked at tomorrows services to the resort:

763, 763, 320, 738, 763 :eek:

LGW:

321, 752, 763, 752, 752

[Ian Brooks]

I was just talking on another forum about MAN to Turkey, it has gone mad this year with over a 100 flights a week ( perhaps someone can confirm the exact totals)

ian B

[kriskross]

Don't forget that Monday is Dalaman's 'sheet change' day.

[TSR2]

Ian B.

My count shows a total of 103 flights to Turkey each week comprising:

Dalaman 59
Bodrum 22
Istanbul 10
Antalya 9
Izmir 3

Three flights however only operate once a month during August and one flight operates at two-weekly frequency.

E&OE

[Ian Brooks]

Thanks TSR2 looks very goodhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Ian B

[lexxity]

Turkey is extremely popular this year as it's out of the Euro zone.

[Betablockeruk]

"Manchester airport not prepared to “prostitute” itself to Ryanair, says Cornish"

Oooh, harsh!! :ooh:

http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk (http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/)

[Manchester Kurt]

5 Live reporting that 9 of the 10 Ryan Air routes from Manchester will cease at the end of October.

[Ian Brooks]

I think they had a good and friendly meeting

Ian B

[jubilee]

Also reported on BBC local news. Dublin being kept on,I would guess.
Jubilee

[Suzeman]

Here is Ryanair's press release :rolleyes:

CW

Ryanair, the World’s favourite airline, today (17th Aug) announced that it will switch/close 9 of its 10 Manchester routes to lower cost competitor airports in East Midlands, Leeds Bradford and Liverpool (from 1st Oct) after Manchester Airport refused to lower its charges to reflect the lower fares being paid by passengers in the current recession. This move will result in the loss of 44 weekly Manchester flights, 600,000 passengers p.a. and up to 600 local jobs.

Ryanair had offered Manchester an additional 28 weekly flights and 400,000 new passengers which would have created 400 new jobs if the airport reduced its high charges. Manchester Airport rejected this offer and Ryanair’s Manchester routes to/from Barcelona (Girona), Bremen, Brussels (Charleroi), Cagliari, Dusseldorf (Weeze), Frankfurt (Hahn), Marseille, Milan (Bergamo) and Shannon will cease from 1st October. Passengers affected will be emailed directly by Ryanair and provided with a full refund or the alternative of flying to some destinations from competing, lower cost airports in East Midlands, Leeds Bradford and Liverpool.

Ryanair has recently announced new bases at low cost airports in Leeds Bradford and Porto and will continue to grow routes and traffic at lower cost competitor airports to Manchester such as East Midlands, Leeds Bradford and Liverpool.

Ryanair’s Stephen McNamara said:

“Ryanair continues to lower fares to encourage travel, but with passengers paying lower fares airports must lower their charges – particularly high cost airports like Manchester, London (Stansted) and Dublin. Ryanair had offered new routes, traffic and growth to Manchester Airport but since they prefer to preserve their high cost base than to grow, Ryanair will now switch/close nine Manchester routes to East Midlands, Leeds Bradford and Liverpool from 1st October next resulting in the loss of 600,000 passengers p.a. and up to 600 jobs at Manchester.

Ryanair will continue to grow at low cost airports which work with us to deliver the low fares required to keep passengers flying during this recession. Ryanair apologises to passengers affected by these cancelations and will contact them in the coming weeks to provide them with a full refund or a switch to similar flights to/from lower cost airports in the region.”

[busz]

Thanks god for that. Ryanair and MOL really are the pimps of the industry.

[AndyH52]

That 'pimp' attracted over 100,000 'clients' through MAN in July - albeit half to DUB, the one route being retained. I would imagine the potential loss of upwards of 500,000 pax a year (2.5% of current throughput) on top of the existing reduction in overall traffic through MAN will leave a fair sized hole in the airport's budget. I can't see many of the lost routes being taken up by other operators either?

[Ian Brooks]

Very unlikely that he pays the airport much as they were all new routes which
would have been financed by the airport as new start routes which were coming to the end of to the time when he would have to finance them himself


Ian B

[AndyH52]

They might not have got much out of the airline itself, but there are now potentially half a million fewer people to use the car parks, buy a coffee, buy duty free, food etc. I think they will miss the income from these pax...

[GavinC]

I really hope that other airlines take up the slack and expand on the back of this. Particularly EZY. I got returns to RAK with them for £59 inc tax (no bags) for November. That's the kind of airline we want at MAN!

[davidjohnson6]

CAA stats for May 2009 for passenger numbers on routes from Manchester that Ryanair currently flies. Note that Ryanair have not announced they are dropping the Dublin route

Dublin 53,812
Weeze 7,409
Hahn 5,968
Gerona 5,428
Shannon 5,123
Bremen 5,022
Charleroi 4,117
Bergamo 3,358
Marseille 1,838
Cagliari 1,769

[roy2711]

I find Ryanair truely amazing....:mad:
a month ago they said they were reducing capacity at STN as the charges were too high and the increase in the APD would cause less people to travel!
Then they announce a new base at LBA with all the normal ryanair fanfare saying how they are supporting the local economy,more jobs etc.
Now they pull all but one flight ex MAN claiming the charges are to high(if that is the only reason, then why are they keeping the DUB flt on).
They really know how to spin! :ugh:

[Serenity]

Good for the management at MAN, i`m sure there will be plenty of airlines to pick up the dropped routes or fill the slots to other destinations.
I`m sure Monarch, Easy, Flybe and others will go to the main airports, not the similarly named ones several miles out of town!!!

If things are so rosey at Ryanair, they shouldn`t be worried about the charges at MAN, especially with plans to overrun it with new routes, OR is there a glitch in the plan sonewhere????

Why should airports have to bow down to the likes of Ryanair and MO, there are many proper airlines that will continue to fly despite the recession! Time Ryanair found out about competition!!

[Trash_Hauler]

I would really likek to know where they are getting these figures of 600 job losses and 400 new jobs from... You mean to tell me that potentially 1000 people would have been DIRECTLY working Ryanair flights alone? Sounds like a load of bollocks to me. I for one am glad to see them go. Jerkoffs like O'Leary are the ones that have taken the bottom out of the airports and handling agents with their absurdly low prices they pay for airports and ground handling. Good Riddance Mick and don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you!

[conradmueller]

Thank god they are going. Often sat waiting for DUS departures with LH and those loads of people waiting for the NRN departure und blocking all the space.

[IB4138]

Per Travelmole:

A Manchester Airport spokesperson said: “Not withstanding all of our investment in Manchester Airport including during the current recession, we don’t believe that charges as low as £3 per passenger are unreasonable. Clearly, Ryanair do and that’s regrettable.

“We’ve consistently cut our charges for the last 15 years even when faced with increased costs such as security.

“Passengers will still be able to travel directly to the majority of the destinations affected by choosing other airlines."

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi AndyH52,

You are right to suggest that the loss of these Ryanair passengers will leave a fair size hole in MAN's budget. But maybe not so big. Clearly, Ryanair sought a deal in which their direct financial contribution to MAN would have been zero (see the comments by Andrew Cornish at 'Crain's Manchester Business'). Looking at Ryanair's indirect contribution to MAN's profitability, note that the airline's customers are so restricted in terms of baggage allowance that they are inclined to avoid shopping, and the company's presence will (soon) not bring in revenue for use of check-in desks. The opportunity for ancillary revenues from Ryanair customers is somewhat limited to put it mildly.

But most importantly, if MAG permits one carrier to use MAN's facilities for free, then they must be prepared to offer the same deal to all other airline customers (or face a much more damaging backlash). The business model would require a complete re-design. Then we can really talk about a fair size hole in MAN's budget. From the point of view of running a business, MAG is to be commended for defending its revenue streams. Ultimately for MAG it is the bottom line (profit) which matters, not the number of passengers through the door. If Ryanair's presence at MAN subtracts from the bottom line - no direct financial contribution and eroding potential income from other carriers - then it is best to wish them goodbye and good luck.

Andrew Cornish and his team have made a brave decision by turning down Ryanair's "offer which we could refuse". No doubt they will be publicly slated for it as passenger numbers fall (alongside their counterparts at STN and DUB who also stood up to Ryanair). But MAN will be left with a core group of business partners who pay a fair price for the services which they use, and these are the partners with whom the business needs to develop in the future. It will be interesting to watch developments at LBA now. If Ryanair are there virtually for free, have Jet2 been offered similar terms? If not, I'm sure they will be quick to demand parity or adjust their commitment to LBA accordingly. So LBA faces the high fixed costs of running its infrastructure, and an anorexic income stream to finance that. It may be a good deal for local pride, but maybe not for future financial viability. We will see.

Ryanair are using the opportunity to slag off MAG in the media as per their usual formula, but even journalists are becoming wise to these tricks now. So 44 flights per week by non-based aircraft equates to 600 jobs, eh? A service provider who will not offer his product for free is fair game for denunciation in the press ... hmmm. Readers of some red-tops may be taken in by this patter, but the serious players in the aviation industry see through the bluster. MAG's principled stance will send a message to the industry that MAN will not allow a sweetheart deal with a predatory player to undermine the viability of its established customers' position. Taking the moral high ground will carry a painful price-tag in the short term but will pay dividends (financially, if not in passenger numbers) in the future.

And if MAG will pay a price for this decision, be assured that Ryanair will too. Note recent statements: Ryanair *wanted* in at MAN. The airport was notably mentioned amongst talk of expansion freezes as one of the few where further growth was planned. By leaving in a huff and issuing an accusatory press release, Ryanair has saved face. But that face now has a big hole where the nose has been bitten off. Ryanair will have a hole in its budget too.

Finally, I would like to conclude by offering an AMAZING OPPORTUNITY to all retailers out there. If you are prepared to offer me your products completely free of charge for the long term (no introductory deals), and deliver them to me gratis, I will agree to do business with you! I am sure none of your other customers will demand equal treatment! And just think of all the jobs my custom will be helping to create - your local economy will boom. By the way, if you turn me down I will issue a press release informing the media that you are a rip-off merchant who has spurned an amazing opportunity - you are clearly greedy and incompetent. And I will mention that your rejection of my custom will cost FIFTY local jobs (using a bizarre formula which I just made up) - nobody will check the numbers anyway! The decision is yours!

SHED.

[Suzeman]

Before the original airport article (see msg 1466 by betablocker) falls off the bottom of the Crain's link as their newsboard is updated, here is the story that started it all


Manchester Airport turned down approaches from Ryanair to launch more routes at the airport after it effectively asked to fly from the airport for free, it has emerged.

Airport managing director Andrew Cornish told industry magazine Travel Trade Gazette that the airport was not prepared to “prostitute” itself to the demands of the low cost giant and accept terms that would “trash the market”.

His comments come days after Ryanair announced it would set up a new base at Leeds Bradford airport, where it is introducing 14 new routes from March 2010. It's unclear what kind of terms the airport offered Ryanair to increase services from the Yorkshire airport.

Cornish told the magazine: “Ryanair made us an offer we could refuse. We are not prepared to prostitute ourselves to have the market trashed.

“Whatever Leeds has done, it has done. We said no to Ryanair and that could have consequences for us for the winter, but if they want to withdraw services then other people will fill them.”

Cornish said the market had recently been “littered” with boom and bust routes that were unsustainable in the long term. He added: “Routes have to be viable and make money.”.

Trash_Hauler
I would really likek to know where they are getting these figures of 600 job losses and 400 new jobs from...

There used to be an accepted aviation industry standard that for every million passengers passing through an airport, 1000 jobs were supported both directly at the airport and in the surrounding economy. Jobs in the surrounding economy came from suppliers to the companies on the airport and the airlines at that airport plus the economic impact of people who were employed at the airport in the area spending in their local economy, supporting jobs in shops etc.

This model worked quite well as a rule of thumb although an airport with a big based carrier eg LHR would have more than 1000 jobs/million pax and others with no based carrier would be under this. I think MAN used these 1000jobs/1 million pax figures at the R2 enquiry?

Nowadays, I suspect the figures overall would be less what with many airports and companies cutting staff fo a while, but at least before this year, passenger volumes still going up. Anyone know whether this general rule has been challenged recently at any planning enquiries?

But anyway, even if this figure is lower, it suits FR to quote the 1000/1million ratio because it deepens the perceived impact of leaving MAN and overeggs the impact of opening new routes/bases.

Now a question. I presume the retention of the DUB route is because it makes money? I seem to remember it once being suggested that they would never drop this route so that they could retain their slots at both ends, but I don't think this would be the case anymore with the recent massive reduction in movements at MAN and less FR aircraft now at DUB?

And what of the gaps in the services? Two slightly different views on the consequences for passengers.

Firstly from Andrew Cornish, MD of MAN
but if they want to withdraw services then other people will fill them.”
suggesting that other carriers will come in and open up similar routes


and then an Airport Spokesperson on Travelmole as posted by IB4138

Passengers will still be able to travel directly to the majority of the destinations affected by choosing other airlines."

suggesting that other carriers already operate similar routes.

Or am I just nickpicking?:confused:

Anyway, more interesting times for MAN

Suzeman

[toledoashley]

Jet2 launching Gran Canaria, Kos & Venice for 2010 from Manchester

[Momentary Lapse]

Haha. For once I think MAG have done the right thing.

[Coquelet]

MAN :

“Passengers will still be able to travel directly to the majority of the destinations affected by choosing other airlines."

At the same price as Ryanair's ?

[howard h]

Bloody sight cheaper when you get the add-ons.

[conradmueller]

At the same price as Ryanair's ?
Do you want slavery to return?

[Based]

Do you want slavery to return?

To where? The world? It's still here I'm afraid.

[firstchoice7e7]

These people that assume Ryanair always offer the cheapest fare absolutely amaze me!!!! Open your eyes.

[roverman]

I think MAN should be commended for this stance. Despite its recent traffic decline MAN has remained remarkably profitable. The same cannot be said for many regional airports who have, to quote MD Cornish, 'prostituted themselves' in the race for volume. The lo-co market today is operating in a state of economic un-reality, the full extent of which is probably yet to be revealed. Airport infrastructure is very costly and needs to be financed from somewhere. The truth is that in the absence of public funding (which is still available in many parts of the EU but not in the UK), the money has to be raised from revenues. Witness what happens when a small airport, experiencing high wear and tear on infrastructure for the first time in years, needs to spend. They cannot raise the money from the paltry deals they have done with lo-cos and so have to add a development tax or otherwise increase charges. Blackpool, anyone? The likes of FR then throw their teddy out when faced with paying a fair price for this infrastructure.

MAN has spent big in the past to provide the North of England with a major airport. It now needs to spend lots more on keeping these facilities in good shape - recent disruption to runway and taxiway operations and the poor state of parts of the terminals bear witness to that. They will not raise the cash by letting expensive resources be used for nothing. Good show, MAN, I say.

[BC2300]

Well done Ryanair. MANs loss, LPL, LBA, EMAs gain!

[Ian Brooks]

Utter tosh Manchester will still be there when the other airports have run out of money because Ryanair has drained there life blood away


Ian B

[TSR2]

Excellent well balanced post.

[chiglet]

I wonder what would happen if MAG took the same view as MAN at the rest of the group.... EMA,BOH and HUY.........:hmm:

[pottwiddler]

When will a company like Ryanair ever understand the concept of Fair Trade?

Go MOL, go off (I could use another phrase but that is MOL's level) to Leeds with it's lack of CATIII, you'll soon be (diverted) back to Manchester.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Good news for Ryanair because the underlining business is profitable despite difficult trading conditions.

Armchair analysts, *sighs*

Well done Ryanair. MANs loss, LPL, LBA, EMAs gain!

Wow, 3 posts since joining PPRUNE; 2 on the Ryanair thread and one on the MAN thread about Ryanair.

Bet you've got the O'Leary bog roll in your loo too, eh...? :hmm:

I see on another forum, some bright spark reckons a campaign should be launched to have a banner unfurled from Tower Building proclaiming "Bye Bye Ryanair."

I'd rather it say "F**K OFF !!" :mad: :E

[Skipness One Echo]

"Bye Bye Ryanair" hanging from the Terminal. In true Mrs Doyle style, "Go on, go on, go on, go, gawan, gawan, gawan, gawan, gawan!!"

[Centre cities]

For something that dosnt matter there seems to be alot of angry feeling on here.

Pound to a penny they will be back in a year or so.


Centre cities

[Suzeman]

Shed

Thanks for a very rational analysis as usual. I wonder if anyone has taken you up on your amazing opportunity for retailers - it's worth reading if you haven't already.

I'm sure Mr Cornish and his team of analysts have looked at this in great detail and discussed it at great length before coming to this decision. As he admits it "could have consequences for us for the winter" but they will have also looked at the longer term implications too and come to the conclusion that this decison was best for the business overall. And of course what's best for the business and shareholders is not necessarily increasing throughput.:}

Roverman has also explained that building and maintaining the infrastructure is costly and the funds have to come from somewhere. Infrastructure provision for airports comes with a high risk - R2 opened just before September 11th - no one saw that coming. Airlines can come and go virtually as they please as we see here with other airports used or capacity added or removed with relative ease. So the airport revenues have to be protected but value for money must also be on offer.

Chiglet
I wonder what would happen if MAG took the same view as MAN at the rest of the group.... EMA,BOH and HUY.........

This decison will have been made whilst looking at the context of overall MAG strategy - evidenced by the wheeling out of the Group CX for the press today. It will be interesting to se if FR use the same tactics at EMA and BOH.

Speaking of local TV reports, they have been reasonably restrained and balanced - the girlie on Granada News at 1830 questioned the loss of 600 jobs and suggested that the figure on airport would be between 100 and 200. BBC showed Geoff Muirhead questioning the job figures too - he didn't believe them as FR "didn't have a base at MAN".

And then stuff me, this FR news was quite high up in the running on the 2200 BBC National news, but was couched in terms of "that's another 600 jobs gone". No questioning of the figures or suggestions it MIGHT lead to some extra jobs at LBA, EMA or LPL but then the item was only about 15 seconds.

Suzeman