MANCHESTER - 7

[Bagso]

Couple of points.

How does the RYR withdrawal at Man stack in with EMA which after all is a MAG company ?

The charges at both airports must be at a commercial rate and therefore must be similar ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Of more pressing importance on the day that this was announced was yet another closure of the runway. A suggestion on another thread indicated that this was due to the concrete breaking up, something which appears to be happening at the moment at alarmingly regular intervals.

[Bagso]

"Manchester will still be there when the other airports have run out of money "

...Hate to state the obvious but on the face of it the evidence suggests Manchester appears to be skint already.....

Whole place looks at though its being run on a shoestring at the minute !

[AndyH52]

Pilots and cabin crew won't really be affected or uprooted by Ryanair's withdrawl as all services were operated by non-based aircraft. The previous few days' posturing does raise the question though whether the proposed additional flights being offered to MAN would have tied in with the creation of a base there instead of LBA? The extra flights would have taken the weekly total up to around the 90 mark (compared to c.150pwk ex-LPL) and to me that could have justified four based aircraft...but now we shall never know...

[Mr A Tis]

The "loss" of Ryanair can only help the avoidance of dilution of other existing services & thus make them more sustainable, so I have no problem with them fliting elsewhere.

Of more immediate concern is the state of 23R at the moment & the disruption to flights.
Does anyone know how many aircraft diverted out last Friday morning & this Monday afternoon? Has there been any statement by MAG as to what has happened & what is being done about it? Or as BAGSO says...are they "skint" already?

[HXdave]

hi guys,

just a quick question here, albeit in relation to the current topic of FR.

we know that FR were wanting the fees reduced / eliminated for using the airport and have now more or less withdrawn. however what fees are payable if an aircraft was 'diverted' to the iarport? do they have an industry agreed fee, or is it something that is negotiated by individual airlines, or does it depend on what the airfield operators decide and there is no negotiation? the reason i am asking is just in case any of the LBA flights get diverted to MAN - will MO be stung in the pocket?

[Mr A Tis]

I would expect LPL would be the alternate to Leeds & vice-versa for obvious reasons, I think a divert to MAN post Oct 1st would be last resort. However,as they still operate a MAN-DUB route, whatever charges pervey to that service would I expect, apply to a diversion.

[ISO100]

The "loss" of Ryanair can only help the avoidance of dilution of other existing services & thus make them more sustainable, so I have no problem with them fliting elsewhere.

Well said.
FR make their money by taking the profit out of their suppliers/staff pockets and not by adding value themselves. That they offer real value to their customers is questionable in my opinion and I certainly wont be hoofing it over to LBA just to Fly with Ryanair. Manchester Airport has refused to give them a competitive edge over their rivals and so now they run off to an airport with less competition.

[Ametyst2]

Ryanair starting Liverpool to Bremen thrice weekly from 2nd October (an ex Manchester route)and a Liverpool to Agadir service will commence on 29th October, not sure of frequency on latter route

[TSR2]

Ametyst2

You have posted exactly the same post on 3 different threads. Not exactly earth-shattering news so one thread would have sufficed.

[lfc84]

im not subscribed to the other threads, wherever thy may be, so i appreciate the post here

[sparkysam]

Will BHX follow Manchesters example or will they do as Ryanair ask ?. Well done MAN Sparkysam

[rapidman47]

the more the news is spread the more customers we get good old mol also Liverpool Agadir to commence 29 October :D
Must finde Ametyst2s other posts to add Agadir to them can you help TSR2:E

[IB4138]

You Liverpool mob have your own thread to back slap each other and have orgasms on, so why keep posting on the MANCHESTER thread?
You have nothing and have added nothing to the debate on MAN with your posts.

Unless, misguidedly, you think you are rubbing noses in what you perceive is poo, by Ryanair throwing their toys out of the pram.

:ugh:

[bermudatriangle]

manchester could not reduce landing charges for ryanair and not the other operators.remember the mistake when MAPLC offered to undewrite any losses when delta started the man-jfk route...result AA immediately cancelled their flights to new york.consequently no extra sevice and the airport authority was responsible for any operating losses for 12 months.just imagine if ryanair had received preferential rates.if ryanair cannot afford to operate from major airports,let them remain at the smaller airports,or those foolish enough to have relied totally on ryanair for their expansion.

[harbour cotter]

Manchester has always had a love/hate relationship with LoCos, hence I dont think the Ryanair decision was too bad for them.

Manchester used to have a 'stillbirth' concept designed to prevent other airlines using nearby airports, which they did extremely well. Its what companies do. However they missed the boat a bit by not negotiating with LoCos at an early stage. I believe they felt that it would be a passing fad, rather than what it is today. However, it is still understandable, as slots were required at peak times and they wished to protect what they had.

However, due to the changing market, Manchester, has, reluctantly encouraged LoCos. Not because they want to, but they dont wish to see their market share being whittled away any further. They still have the 'big' airport mentality however for a preference for full cost airlines and a total distain for everything outside of this is evident.

I think that LoCos are also aware of this. As if the airline industry returns to what it was (And this is no means definate due to heavy taxation) then ManPLC will drop all LoCos in an instant. They literally wouldnt care if they 'shafted' them. It works both ways.

This would not however be the situation in other Northern Airports, who need the LoCos as their bread and butter and therefore they have to look after their users in a friendlier (subservient?) manner.

Therefore put the vitriol away against Ryanair, they, just like manchester and other airports are managing their businesses to suit themselves, not us. Other airlines, even BA use 'dodgy' business acumen, albeit in a less obvious way. Flybe also use airports tactically to get what they want. Are you willing to stop using Flybe because of this? or are you prepared to accept them because they did manchester a favour and they are convenient to where you may wish to fly.

Dont forget, if it wasnt for LoCos, travel within Europe would be decimated at the moment. They have provided thousands of direct jobs, many more indirectly and boosted local tourism. Ryanair is the main player.

Those who have said 'good riddance' would probably have been the first to welcome them in the first place. Its a big world out there and there is room for many ideologies. You have a choice.

[TSR2]

I generally agree with your comments but

They still have the 'big' airport mentality however for a preference for full cost airlines and a total distain for everything outside of this is evident.

Until recently there were just as many, if not more charter flights than full cost flights and these have always been welcome.

[Bagso]

The comparisons between LIV and MAN are well made.....

Two totally different business models, Liverpool had/has nothing to lose by charging zero landing fees, they had no traffic when EZY started, so presumably their business model is "still" possibly based on that !

Zero landing fees with revenue generated from other means.....

That said I am a bit lost on the CAA guidleines who I thought laid down "minimum commercial" rates ?

Manchester had an established framework and there was no way they could simply restructure their landing fees across the board ....

....despite the current Airport Mangement being totally inept, on this point their hands were tied.

That said there were loco's who were not quite as "strident" as RYR who could perhaps have been encouraged sooner rather than later.... !

[undw]

wonder how long before MAG management realise that there is no real scope in turning Ringway into a northern Heathrow. The long haul trafffic just isn't there in sufficient quantities and it's quite sad watching MAG managers turn their nose up at the likes of Ryanair. The market is moving from underneath them and yet they show no real culture of enterprise. They sit in their fat superanuated towers and expect the world to come to them.

[eggc]

undw, have you just got in from the pub ?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi Harbour Cotter,

I applaud you for a thought-provoking and interesting post, but I feel that I must take issue with certain of the points which you make. Firstly, you express the point of view that "MAN has total disdain for everything outside of [Full Cost Airlines]". I have to say that I see no evidence for that at all. Could you elaborate by giving us some recent examples of this "disdain" in action? I cannot think of any. This situation with Ryanair has arisen not because they are a no-frills carrier, but because as a company they wished to avail themselves of Manchester's high-value facilities without paying a fair price (or any price?) for doing so. What reaction would you anticipate in your personal affairs if you were to ask a retailer or service provider to supply your needs free of charge? Are they wrong to politely pass up the opportunity of your valuable custom? Do they not have the right to be paid for their valuable goods, services and labour (as I am sure you expect to receive in your own profession?).

Moving on, you contend that when conditions improve "MAN will drop all LoCos in an instant". Again, I must ask you: what evidence do you have for suggesting this? I suggest that you have none, because this statement is simply not true. Any airline company which pays a fair price befitting the services which it uses is more than welcome at MAN - regardless of the market segment served by that company. EasyJet is one example of a carrier which is investing heavily at MAN with a view to future expansion. I assure you that they would not do so if they "knew" that MAN would drop them in an instant as you assert.

Next, you suggest that posters 'put away their vitriol' against Ryanair. Now hang on ... vitriol is a particularly interesting subject well worth afew hours of study! And the best place to learn? I would suggest consulting all the press releases available for viewing on the Ryanair website. They are world-class masters in the art of vitriol, and I assure you that no UK airport or poster on PPRuNe comes close to matching them in this respect. One gets the impression that they pride themselves on that fact. In seriousness, I do agree with you that vitriolic prose do not make for wholesome reading, but if there is one company which knows how to evoke emotional responses it is surely Ryanair.

Finally, I wish to comment on your suggestion that those who say "Good Riddance" to Ryanair would probably have been the first to welcome them. That is fair comment, and true in many cases. But at the time the welcome mat was laid out many (well, some!) were blissfully unaware that Ryanair would turn out to be the business partner from Hell. Now that the truth has emerged into the public domain many would say that the "good riddance" tag is entirely justified. That is not my personal position, but I do understand the thinking and anger of those who feel that way.

And here is my own position. I am genuinely disappointed that MAN's relationship with Ryanair has disintegrated, and I am in no way celebrating their exit. But having said that, I believe that the exit of Ryanair from MAN was the result of a "Hobson's Choice" situation and that the correct decision has been made by MAG. The choice MAG faced was to submit to Ryanair's unjustifiable demands for a free ride (thus undermining and infuriating all other airlines using MAN), or to decline Ryanair's proposal (and protect their business relationship with MAN's loyal airline customer base). This was an unenviable choice to face, but there was only one honourable way for MAG to respond and I applaud them for having shown the courage to do so. Remember also that as a business, MAN must protect its investments and revenue streams. A 'freebie' for one client will inevitably lead to demands for equal treatment from others. Once a company loses its ability to offset its costs with hard-earned and wholly-deserved income the slippery slope to insolvency beckons.

There is a saying which I have always felt makes alot of sense. It is this: "A good workman is worthy of his hire." It is a good philosophy, and an idea to which I wholeheartedly subscribe. Unfortunately, the Ryanair business model is totally at odds with this principle. I believe that the staff who make our airports run smoothly - often behind the scenes and unrecognised - are entirely worthy of their hire. Why should their labour be demanded for free? Are the services which they provide to be deemed valueless? Are the facilities provided by airports at considerable expense unworthy to command a reasonable fee for their use? I contend that businesses should not be expected to give away their valuable goods and services free of charge (and if they did we would soon see the demise of such businesses).

So no, I am not saying "Good Riddance, Ryanair". But I am saying, "I regret and mourn your exit, but the parting was inevitable." The world of commerce cannot function with a 'something for nothing' mentality. MAG has preserved its pricing power in the market place, and its growing reputation for dealing even-handedly with all its airline customers. The loss of Ryanair - disappointing as that undeniably is - is the sacrifice which had to be made to serve the greater good.

"A GOOD WORKER IS WORTHY OF HIS HIRE".

Regards, SHED.

[EZYA319]

"so take your tincan airline to the tincan airport (liverpool) hope your happy together!!!!"

Why you feel the need to slag off liverpool airport is beyond me???lpl and man are 2 completely different airfields, catering to different needs off different airlines, the fact that man airport is falling apart at the seems in certain areas, and yes I do know this as fact as having seen it for my own eyes both as a pax and as operating crew leads me to believe that maybe its your precious man that is the 'tincan' airport as you put it.
FR will be back at man eventually they did the same thing at bhx a few years ago,hasnt stopped them opening a base there now.
Im not getting into a debate over which is the better airport, I just fail to see the need to slag off lpl!!!!
I know which airport I prefer to fly from anyway.......
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=5134262)

[eggc]

EZYA319 you are quite right, MAN and LPL and completely different animals, and both have a role to play, and both have a place in the market. Tinpot is neither MAN or LPL...RYR though I'm not so sure !

Talking about RYR, whilst sat around the pool in Palma Nova this afternoon, just hours before flying home back to my beloved MAN, and over the famous Cheadle End with a game in progress (we lost!) I sussed the whole RYR/MAN saga...

Here goes...

Load factors have been encouraging from MAN for RYR and they wanted more...

They actually applied for numerous new slots (fact), for numerous new routes (fact) with new based a/c (guess), but with this they expected (demanded) a better deal.

Initially MAG didn't play ball, and the first battle of the war resulted in RYR firing a warning shot across MAG bows, which was shifting MAN-Shannon to LPL, which missed - as MAG still didn't change it's pricing policy.

So RYR brought in the threat of local thermonuclear war and threated to go to LBA instead...."off you trot then if you won't pay our fair prices" said MAG.

MOL, by this time fuming, thinks sodya and announced LBA base, a spiteful 2nd choice, fumes for a week or so at MAG's refusal to accept his expansion plans, and in a childish backlash chops all other routes ex MAN, regardless of their success thus far.

Simples :ok:

Took me hours that !

Here's a link to another interesting read, seems folk are wising up to the RYR spin machine....

Congratulations! Manchester Airport says no to Ryanair (http://insidetraveller.co.uk/blog/?p=300)

Anyway cheers to the MON crew for the lift home :ok:

[conflier]

I guess the pay cuts on MAN security personnel not so long ago was for the "greater good". What goes around comes around.

Also, some posts on the LPL vs MAN have become very juvenile.:ugh:

Just my opinion.

PS: Last time I used T2 there was no Black puding for breakfast.:rolleyes:

Regards conflier.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

PS: Last time I used T2 there was no Black puding for breakfast

In the last round of cost saving measures, it was decided to reduce black pudding to MAG executive breakfasts only. :}

Times are tight - so are some management waistlines :E

[sparkysam]

You can buy a LEAN version of black pud Sparky

[Ametyst2]

CSA - Czech Airlines will withdraw the Manchester to Prague service with the last flight operating on 24th October.

[Mr A Tis]

Can't say I'm surprised at this one. From 3 x a day to just one.
My mate lives in Prague & he has booked loadsa flights with Wizzair to Liverpool at £25- £50 return inc tax. Tax alone at CSA came to £86 return.
We still have Baby, but with times designed for stag parties. I tend to use Swiss at there are several options on departure time. Sad, but not unexpected..............maybe one for EZY in the future?

[roverman]

Further to my post #1491 - MAN as a mature busy airport knows about the high cost of infrastructure. By way of illustration it costs approximately £600k to rebuild (not build from scratch) just 100 metres of worn out concrete taxiway, plus the cost of taxiway ground lighting renewals. MAN is currently in the process of re-building several kilometres of taxiways, and then re-furbishing 05L-23R at a cost in excess of £20M. How many Ryanair pax at £3 a head is that? Then there is a new ILS, new standby control tower, new HV ring main, and that's just the airfield. And no, Mr O'L - these are not gold plated excesses but essential facilities to keep the airport open for your flights. Fine in Spain, Germany etc where the government owns and pays for everything. Not here in UK.

Regional airports doing deals with lo-cos beware - when you need to rebuild or expand where is the money coming from? Or are you expecting to pass the hat around.

[Bagso]

MAN as a mature busy airport knows about the high cost of infrastructure. By way of illustration it costs approximately £600k to rebuild (not build from scratch) just 100 metres of worn out concrete taxiway, plus the cost of taxiway ground lighting renewals. MAN is currently in the process of re-building several kilometres of taxiways, and then re-furbishing 05L-23R at a cost in excess of £20M.

...point taken, but why also invest in HUY, BOH etc, how much have these ridiculous investments which are not core to Manchester and its NWest shareholders actually cost ?

If they have made a profit they should now be paying a divident BACK to the host. I suspect they have however, made a loss and are being subsidised, which is why Manchester is now in a mess.

The improvements listed should have been completed years ago....there is now a massive shopping list of "actual airfield improvements" because of the lack of investment in previous years.

There have been limited funds but suspect this was santioned based on ROI via retail. Safety doesn't bring profit.

It MAG were a football team its manager and coaching staff would have been sacked by now !

[Scottie Dog]

"Then there is a new ILS, new standby control tower,"

That's the first I have seen mentioned of a new stanby control tower - would you care to enlighten us a little more? I presume this will replace the emergency control caravan - and is instead of the originally planned new all singing tower?

Many thanks

Scottie Dog

[EI-BUD]

Regional airports doing deals with lo-cos beware - when you need to rebuild or expand where is the money coming from? Or are you expecting to pass the hat around.

Fair Point, Glasgow Prestwick comes to mind and probably Shannon too...!

[Based]

Further to my post #1491 - MAN as a mature busy airport knows about the high cost of infrastructure. By way of illustration it costs approximately £600k to rebuild (not build from scratch) just 100 metres of worn out concrete taxiway, plus the cost of taxiway ground lighting renewals. MAN is currently in the process of re-building several kilometres of taxiways, and then re-furbishing 05L-23R at a cost in excess of £20M. How many Ryanair pax at £3 a head is that? Then there is a new ILS, new standby control tower, new HV ring main, and that's just the airfield. And no, Mr O'L - these are not gold plated excesses but essential facilities to keep the airport open for your flights. Fine in Spain, Germany etc where the government owns and pays for everything. Not here in UK.

Taking the year ended March 31st 2009 figures and a £3 passenger fee (the actual average was £6.90), Manchester Airport would take in the £20.6m mentioned above from passenger fees alone in just 4 months, and in well under 2 months based on the average.

Manchester's overall income for this period was £272m. Interestingly they don't give a breakdown by airport but only 48% of the overall group's income (£371m) came from 'aviation income' with the remaining 52% made up of baggage handling, car parking, property related income, etc.

Where I'm going is that Manchester Airport choosing to have Ryanair as a customer or not is much more complex than talking about the cost of infrastructure or even this misconstrued idea that all airlines will have to be charged the same. If we had an impartial observer (pretty much impossible to find when Ryanair are involved!) look at the Manchester situation right now, I'm almost certain they would say that it would make good business sense to have Ryanair as a customer.

One reason is exactly because of the high cost of infrastructure! It's in the best interests of any capital intensive business to 'sweat' it's assets, the runway, terminal, etc. still have to be maintained whether they have Ryanair as a customer or not. Another reason is numbers - increased passenger numbers provide increased revenue opportunities, they provide increased footfall stats in terms of commercial unit rental, advertising rates, etc.

On the assumption that the airport is not operating at full capacity, what it boils down to is whether MAG feel they have the ability to manage Ryanair as a marginal customer at Manchester in an effective manner, with standard or 'full fare' and perhaps charter airlines being their main business - if they can it's good for business, if they fail then it's quite likely the business will actually suffer overall. Good management would involve reducing passenger fees to utilise underused ramps, etc. in return for guaranteed passenger numbers - this would only suit Ryanair's business model. Also, only allow routes that will have marginal or no impact on current passengers - perhaps surprisingly, a significant number of airports served by Ryanair are not competing with larger airports actually 'in' the named destination! Forget Frankfurt (Hahn), Brussels (Charleroi), etc. and think of airports not served from Manchester such as Porto, Seville, Tampere, Krakow, etc., etc.

Sorry, long post!

[Skipness One Echo]

Bottom line is Ryanair wasn't worth the candle. There are other options without allowing Pikey Air to fly for free whilst making sure you remember to take the cross subsidy from your other customers.

Such glowing examples include Shannon where MOL has them by the balls and Prestwick where er....MOL has them by the balls.

[Based]

Bottom line is Ryanair wasn't worth the candle.

As I say, true if the airport is not capable of managing Ryanair's presence effectively. Basically the easy answer was no.

There are other options without allowing Pikey Air to fly for free whilst making sure you remember to take the cross subsidy from your other customers.

Basic misunderstanding, no cross subsidy involved.

Such glowing examples include Shannon where MOL has them by the balls and Prestwick where er....MOL has them by the balls.

Manchester isn't comparable to Shannon or Prestwick.

[pottwiddler]

...point taken, but why also invest in HUY, BOH etc, how much have these ridiculous investments which are not core to Manchester and its NWest shareholders actually cost ?Well BOH is having 45m spent a on a new terminal, apron extension, new runway overlay, CATIII ILS, AGL, and IRVR. Bargain I say. And why because that sort of investment at Bournemouth will make more money for the MAG Business. Bournemouth has a huge potential not just as a "commercial" airport but as an airport that serves all types of aircraft such as training schools, biz jets, etc. Then there is the Industrial Parks, the largest in Dorset, all the proceeds go right back to Manchester. So that's why these "ridiculous" investments are made.

And for you information Bournemouth was given free to Manchester by National Express when they bought East Mids.

[mickyman]

Skipness

Pikey Air - who they?

MM

[turtlecontroller]

Most posts have focussed on MAN's decision not to deal with RYR. However, little analysis of RYR's motivation. For example would it affect their load factor if their ticket prices from MAN were £3 more expensive than elsewhere? Or even £5? Can they make more money by offering flights from the airports overlapping MAN's catchment area or is the profit maximising position to operate from MAN despite higher costs?

A good illustration of this is the hypothetical situation of RYR offering an identical network from MAN, LPL, LBA and EMA with MAN prices £3 higher.
I believe it a relatively straight forward conclusion that MAN would be the optimum base due to proximity of denser populations and ease of access from further afield.

Therefore, it is RYR rather than MAN that is acting against the interests of the markets, shareholders and consumers.

Personally, I would like to see RYR back at MAN sooner rather than later.

[pottwiddler]

Come on Mickey Man,

You know who, every one knows who! :ugh:

And quite rightly to be honest?

[eggc]

from UK Airport News :-

Manchester Airport in talks to replace Ryanair routes
19.08.09

Manchester Airport is already in talks with other airlines about the possibility of taking over the routes cut by Ryanair earlier this week.

A spokesman for the airport said today that is was confident of replacing the routes axed by Ryanair. He confirmed that the airport is already in talks with other airlines about the possibility of taking over the routes this winter.

[Daza]

Saudia will discontinue its RUH-GVA-MAN service on 1/1/2010
Daza

[Adola69]

So Saudia pull -out as well!!
The last time I checked a load factor on this was ten days ago and it had 165 outbound. Now seeing it is load restricted out of Man because of its pick-up in GVA, I reckon this is pretty good, plus add any freight contribution.

I'd love to know what exactly they require to enable it to become sustainable? I'm sure there are other places that they operate to that yield less than Manchester?!:{

On the Ryaniar front, I do hope that MA place a BIG sign on the front of Concorde Hangar saying ""Bye Bye Ryanair", or maybe Flybe or Jet 2 could adopt it!!??:D:):):)

[Ian Brooks]

Thought they were dropping to 1 a week not pulling out

Ian B

[Daza]

Saudia Website is showing the last available flight ex MAN as Monday 28th December.
Daza

[Navpi]

If Manchester really wanted to get even,why oh why don't they fightback and ban the RYR - Dublin service...............

EI would be upping capacity like a shot and for once it would show that the airport management had some balls.....!

[GLENO]

Ryanair wont drop the Dublin Route for one reason............

It's always full of Man United Fans...........would be great to see if the Airport had the balls to do it though!!.......Time right for a North of England Aer Lingus base????

[Skipness One Echo]

Basic misunderstanding, no cross subsidy involved.

Manchester isn't comparable to Shannon or Prestwick.

What colour is the sky on your world Ryanair-boy? You get use of facilities in the Terminals you refuse to pay market rates for and everyone else contributes to.That is a barefaced example of someone else subsidising your use of said facility.
In terms of Ryanair bases, the SNN and PIK analogy is used to show what happens when airport management makes a bad deal with the Devil.

It's always full of Man United Fans...........would be great to see if the Airport had the balls to do it though!!.......Time right for a North of England Aer Lingus base???? This was tried before in the early nineties. There used to be loads of B737s stopping through on the way to and from Dublin to destinations across Europe.

[Ian Brooks]

That was until BA forced EIN off the routes as if you look back EIN used to
use 1-11 many years ago to Zurich, Copenhagen to name a couple


Ian B

[GLENO]

Yes Ba put paid to them on them routes......used to use them quite a lot to go Copenhagen and always an excellent service...

Time for a comeback?................

[trumptonville]

Current ops are once a week to Jeddah and once a week to Jeddah/Riyadh. Both via Geneva

If its only Riyadh that is being dropped then shouldn't see any change ?

[Momentary Lapse]

In response to #1532 from Based:

AFAIK prices are regulated and published, so if RYR falls outside the rules for discounted fees, changing the rules for their now established routes would mean every other airline could claim discounts. That way, madness and bankruptcy lie.

As MAN is usually at capacity in all elements from car parking, through check-in, baggage, security, lounge, gates, apron, taxiway, runway etc. then adding more routes will trigger the need to spend more to add capacity. No point spending if the route you add is provided by an airline that doesn't pay anything. It's called marginal return on investment.

I've said for some time that MAN should cap its pax numbers and spend its time and effort on improving the passenger experience. That way, airlines that focus on service and quality rather than price will want to come, and will pay top dollar to do so, resulting in greater profit for all parties. There's really nothing clever about chasing down to the lowest common denominator.

Ryanair are bottom feeders, economically speaking, and are best suited to airports with spare capacity where the marginal costs of servicing them are minimal. That's just not the case at MAN where all capacity is at a premium, and therefore has a commercial value.

I do like Navpi's idea of telling RYR that if they're stopping all the other routes, they should stop DUB too! They can't do that as they have to let airlines run any service they ask for, but I bet they thought about it!

[Based]

AFAIK prices are regulated and published, so if RYR falls outside the rules for discounted fees, changing the rules for their now established routes would mean every other airline could claim discounts. That way, madness and bankruptcy lie.

I'm not sure whether they are regulated anymore, if they are then it's a simple situation where it just wasn't possible for them to have accepted Ryanair's offer. Making comments like 'We are not prepared to prostitute ourselves to have the market trashed' would in itself be misleading in that case!

As MAN is usually at capacity in all elements from car parking, through check-in, baggage, security, lounge, gates, apron, taxiway, runway etc. then adding more routes will trigger the need to spend more to add capacity. No point spending if the route you add is provided by an airline that doesn't pay anything. It's called marginal return on investment.

Manchester airport is not at capacity, passenger numbers for the 2009 results were 20.4m, down from 22m in 2008 and 22.2 in 2007. If you read my previous post again I said 'on the assumption that the airport is not operating at full capacity', of course there's no point in spending if you're adding a marginal customer like Ryanair.

I've said for some time that MAN should cap its pax numbers and spend its time and effort on improving the passenger experience. That way, airlines that focus on service and quality rather than price will want to come, and will pay top dollar to do so, resulting in greater profit for all parties. There's really nothing clever about chasing down to the lowest common denominator.

Growth is seen as a requirement of modern day business I'm afraid, it's just a matter of how they grow.

Ryanair are bottom feeders, economically speaking, and are best suited to airports with spare capacity where the marginal costs of servicing them are minimal. That's just not the case at MAN where all capacity is at a premium, and therefore has a commercial value.

I'm afraid Manchester airport does have spare capacity where the marginal costs of servicing them are minimal.

I do like Navpi's idea of telling RYR that if they're stopping all the other routes, they should stop DUB too! They can't do that as they have to let airlines run any service they ask for, but I bet they thought about it!

If they did think about it then they probably shouldn't be in charge of running a commercial airport.

[Adola69]

[QUOTE][Thought they were dropping to 1 a week not pulling out
/QUOTE]

I don't think that even Ryanair could make a profit on just one flight a week !!!

I think you meant to say dropping to 1 service, which will probably be a 4 x day rotation?

I'd still like to see a Bye Bye Ryanair sign somewhere on the airfield, after all Ryanair have never hung back trying to get one over on their rivals by putting slogans on the side of their aircraft. About time they got a bit of their own medicine:)

[Ian Brooks]

Talking about Saudi not Ryanair

Ian B

[Daza]

Check out their website. There are no flights between MAN and any Saudi City after 1/1/2010. I have enquired with the airline as I work for an agency who allocate seats on this flight. Looks like a trip via Europe or London now!
Daza

[airhumberside]

The airline route updates blog, which is normally reliable, shows Jeddah (via GVA) is continuing

[parky747]

Any chance that Easyjet may speed up the introduction of 4th and 5th + based units in light of Ryanair deciding to move on?

[LGWAlan]

The Friday flight is shown as bookable through to next July in Amadeus dept MAN 1430, via GVA/JED arr RUH 0230+1

[conti onepass]

come on guys lets get a petition going!!!! ryanair to be banned from manchester!!! get rid of their dublin route!! let another airline that gives a toss the chance to fly it... aer lingus in fact.....

[flying_shortly]

Aer Lingus do fly it you sad man.... You going to take on Tesco's while you're at it?

[Suzeman]

Times are tight - so are some management waistlines http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Or not as the case may be....:eek:

Anyway, somebody asked a while ago about runway closures on Friday 14th and Monday 17th. Don't know about 14th, but this is what UK Airport News said about 17th. Looks like it was copied direct from the Manchester Evening News - where the story has no byline. Sounds like it was probably written by the summer job experience person; no, on second thoughts it was probably a grizzled hack .......

18.08.09
Flights had to be diverted and others left mid-air above Manchester Airport yesterday when staff were forced to carry out emergency repairs to the runway. Problems with a broken, sunken light on the runway serving terminal two and three forced the airport to divert planes to land at terminal one.:confused: [Translation - 23R was shut and 23L was brought into use]

At least eight flights were sent to Leeds Bradford, Birmingham and Liverpool airports to refuel before returning to land at Manchester. An airport spokesman said: ‘We had to close a runway for a short time to make some emergency repairs to a sunken light twice during the afternoon. It did mean some flights had to hold and others had to divert to local airports to refuel, but later returned here to offload passengers.’

I believe that on each occasion it took about 15 minutes to get 23L into operation as the airport was on single runway 23R. On Monday the EK went to BHX for a splash and dash, got airborne again and wasn't best pleased as it had to go into the hold at Dayne as the runway was shut again.

Let's hope that 23R survives the winter before its major refurbish next year.

Suzeman

[Skipness One Echo]

come on guys lets get a petition going!!!! ryanair to be banned from manchester!!! get rid of their dublin route!! let another airline that gives a toss the chance to fly it... aer lingus in fact.....

conti you got some nerve calling someone a "no brain" after coming out with comerdy gold like that last comment. You know Aer Lingus already fly MAN-DUB right? And you want to improve things by banning the competition? OK.....
Kind of illegal is that.

[rapidman47]

come on guys lets get a petition going!!!! ryanair to be banned from manchester!!! get rid of their dublin route!! let another airline that gives a toss the chance to fly it... aer lingus in fact..... So Manchester will get Ryanair back, as soon as Ryanair take over Air Fungus which they will do in the end :ok:What will Manchester do then Ban Air Fungus :rolleyes:. On another point If Manchester want to keep Easyjet they must lower their landing fees. Why do you think Easy have not expanded more at Manch .Easy are already starting to pull aircraft from Luton over fees. Interesting times over the next eight mounths

[Ian Brooks]

Easy have done exactly what they said they would in the timescale they have given,
they are not like Ryanair as they don`t just throw aircraft at an airport they build much
more slowly and thoughtfully and don`t chop and change at a whim

Ian B

[eggc]

I don't get why RYR didn't just put an extra £3 on flight prices to cover to the charge MAN wanted...they could still have sold seats a plenty at £10 each. £10 or £20 from MAN or £2 from LPL/LBA...I would still pay the tenner or more without question.

It does not make sense to me to alienate thousands and thousands of customers over £3 per departing passenger...most will remember this and will be more than cautious about booking with them ever again.

So now they have spat their dummy out my choice is either a few quid on RYR but from LPL/LBA, or considerably more on other carriers from MAN...well sorry RYR you have lost my business - as I am one who would rather pay more than be inconvienienced by not being able to fly from my local airport.

[Ian Brooks]

ASFKAP

Totally agree with you, I was talking to a collegue at work about flights to Dublin and by the time all the extras had been added as he was going for a week and had
hold baggage etc Ryanair worked out a lot dearer
When he returned he was very happy with Aer Lingus

Ian B

[racedo]

Just fly Aer Lingus as I did several times recently, the flights were always cheaper than the RYR equivalent on the dates I travelled, not that it would have mattered really as I (like a great many others) don't actually mind paying more to avoid the Ryanair experience...

Riggggggggggggggght :rolleyes:

You refuse to travel with them BUT constantly reference them back V the flights you wish to take. Like hell.

[JackRalston]

I also am one who also despises Ryanair. I flew with them in 2005 when I was in Year11 at School on a Geography field trip to Rome. I went to Parrs Wood High School in Manchester and we got a coach down to EMA and flew with RYR to CIA. They were very moody and all of the cabin crew were foreign. The flight back a week later to EMA, I ordered a ham & cheese toasted ciabatta, after waiting over 15 minutes for it and with the in-flight meal service been complete...I asked if my ciabatta was ready...to which the man pretty much shouted "ITS COMING!"...very bad mannered.

Flew with Easyjet first time in 2006 when I was in the sixth form on a Geography field trip to Barcelona. Flew from LPL to BCN, very nice service, cabin crew were very polite. No problems what so ever. EasyJet crew all seem friendly and happy to chat. Flight back was fine, again no problems, very comfy and nice flight.

This summer I went to Tenerife on a lads holiday for a week with a few mates, flew from MAN to TFS on the 7am monday flight. Delayed on the ground for about 1hr 40 in the end because we were 640kg overweight and had to try and offload a few people, which a family agreed to do which got an applause from everyone. Crew were friendly throughout! Spoke with the Capt. and FO after the flight and they were fine to chat with. Flight coming back a week later was fine, no problems, arrived early, we were laughing at the cabin crew as during the safety briefing, the girl accidentally mistook the aircraft as an A380 to which we burst out laughing. Spoke to Captain and FO again after flight and they were very friendly.

EasyJet IMO is miles above Ryanair and they have far happier cabin crew and comfier seats and configuration. Plus the Airbus idle noises sound a lot better then the 738s ;) Easyjet staff are happy to chat to passengers and do exactly what the purpose of the flight for customers is..."sit back and enjoy the ride". With RYR, is seems rather impossible. Their move out of MAN just shows what a greedy airline (well the Management) they are. This is a great move for MAN, I think EZY will continue their slow expansion at MAN and don't be surprised to see Jet2 move aircraft over from LBA if RYR bully the airport management asking for free fares.

[lasernigel]

Just flew into SJC via ORD yesterday. Flight full and flight back next Friday full as well. Now BMI don't do ORD there aren't many options to get to the west coast of the US, other than going south or to Europe and going direct to SFO.
Lots of people going Vegas or San Francisco.
Why doesn't a major carrier go direct to the West coast of US from MAN? I am sure the load factors would be more than enough to warrant 2-3 flights a week.:confused:

[Skipness One Echo]

Why doesn't a major carrier go direct to the West coast of US from MAN? I am sure the load factors would be more than enough to warrant 2-3 flights a week.

Major carriers have no interests in serving the US on a few flights a week to non hub airports. They operate daily through their hubs and channel traffic that way.

[HH6702]

just a quick question
can anybody tell me if the viewing park cafe has re-opened.
a mate of mine was down the other week and he told me it was closed

hoping to bring the family down this weekend

[bjones4]

Last time I was there on the 2nd, both the new cafe and restaurant were open for business.

[greatoaks]

HH6702,

The food outlet (Runway) is now fully open and is situated down the left side of Concorde's tent.

There is now a large grass area with new picnic tables by the cafe offering a good safe area for the kids whilst you spot or shoot.

Its all looking very smart now , well done to all concerned for giving us a world class facility. :ok:

'oaks

[EGCC4284]

Just read this notam for man

EGCC 25AUG09 0900 - 30SEP09 1200 EG1A2532/2009
RWY 05L/23R ILS DME 119.50MHZ CH 32X U/S DUE MAINT)

Is this correct 119.50MHZ

[OltonPete]

Not seen this reported on here but it is on other forums, there appears
to be a frequency decrease in the week from six to five a day.

That is the bad news but the good news is that it appears to be a
seat increase on most days although I have only checked selective
dates and as I have found with the BHX services KLM do change a lot.

The services most days appear to be (departure only)

06.00 738
09.55 73W
12.45 738
16.35 733
19.15 734

Therefore all mainline and no Fokker's or Embraers in the week
compared to at least two a day (F70/F100) at present.

One forum had Air France reducing from six to five as well but it
appears to be five now. The winter timetable shows 4 x Airbus
and 1 x 190 (no 145's).

Pete

[lasernigel]

and no Fokker's

KLM are actually getting rid of the Fokker fleet esp the F100.

[lasernigel]

Major carriers have no interests in serving the US on a few flights a week to non hub airports. They operate daily through their hubs and channel traffic that way.

OK daily flights to SFO or LAX which are regional hubs....what objection to that??? Easier for Vegas connections and Washington state etc.

[OltonPete]

lasernigel

Correct the F100's are on the way out but it is the other way round
with the F70's, they have been adding to the fleet this year.

I am sure I read somewhere that another has arrived recently and
that they were looking at 2012-2014 before replacing them all.

Manchester is not alone in losing a KLM rotation this year with BHX
down to five a day from the end of last May and I am sure I have
read on other threads of similar cuts in the UK.

At least at Manchester it should be an all 737 operation from winter.

Pete

[Ian Brooks]

It`s better to have a few less flights operating with good loads than lots half empty

Ian

[Rob Courtney]

Came through T1 late last night (approx 1.15am) after a 7 hour delay, security clearance was a doddle and walked into the baggage claim to find the first of the luggage on the carousel, great I thought but spoke to soon approx half the cases where delivered then the belt stoppped and we waited over an hour for the rest.

After a pretty nasty conversation with a guy in the office who seemed like he couldnt care less we discovered that the handlers had been directed off our flight onto two new arrivals, they all got thier luggage and left. We where told this was to ensure the handlers hit their targets is this true?

[dwshimoda]

Just read this notam for man

EGCC 25AUG09 0900 - 30SEP09 1200 EG1A2532/2009
RWY 05L/23R ILS DME 119.50MHZ CH 32X U/S DUE MAINT)

Is this correct 119.50MHZ

Yes - it's being replaced I believe. Time to brush up on the VOR/DME approaches for the next few weeks!!!

[spannersatcx]

Rob, what normally happens is the flt is deat with, but once another flt arrives that is 'on schedule' that takes priority, as they say 'you're off schedule go to the back of the queue' and that applies with most services, i.e. fuelling, catering, cleaning etc etc.

[EGCC4284]

I am asking if 119.50 MHZ is correct. I shall say again 119.50

[dwshimoda]

OK - sorry missed that!

Yes, clearly INN should be 109.5, and just checked the latest NOTAM:

EGCC APT 20090814E44V01 A2543/09 09 25AUG1110/09 30SEP1200
RWY 05L/23R ILS DME 109.50MHZ CH 32X UNSERVICEABLE DUE MAINT

So I guess someone else also pointed it out to them.

Should have read your post in more detail - sorry!

DW.

[Adola69]

:\ Look out in the coming months for more exciting outages. Yes not only are the ILS DME's being replaced, but some bright spark has decided to replace all the ILSs' themselves over the winter months during the next 12 - 18 of them!!
Standby one and all for diversions out.

What a loyal bunch of airlines we have, putting up with runways that regularly break-up or are slippery when wet. Taxiways that are crumbling before your very eyes, if you stand in the AVP and look infront of you!
Airbridges that fall on your aircraft. Parking systems that are so outdated the candles keep blowing out!
A perfectly good runway that is shut considerably more time than it is open on a daily basis, thus ensuring that the decrepit old one gets a hammering.

No wonder that loyalty is proving too much for some of them during these hard times. Still with less traffic using the place it may just be able to stay usable, unless the man at CAA aerodrome inspectorate is to come looking again!

Do other UK airfields suffer from as many closures due to runway problems as Manchester does? Not heard of many.:{

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi Adola 69 -

Your post reads as if you are criticizing MAN for not investing in its infrastructure, AND simultaneously for ... errr ... investing in its infrastructure? The new ILS equipment can only enhance the airport's appeal to to its 'loyal bunch of airlines', surely? And we regulars here know that for all the airport's shortcomings there is a very expensive programme of taxiway and apron upgrades in progress.

The remedy for the airport's infrastructure faults is new investment, and the new ILS installations are a part of that. Would you rather that MAN did not make this new investment? And as for the timing of the installation process - well - when is the best time to install new equipment? Traffic is at its quietest in the Winter; weather is at its best (but far from perfect) in the Summer. Ultimately, MAN must make the best judgement-call they can in choosing when to install new equipment. There is no perfect time to disrupt airline traffic, but airlines well understand the long-term benefits of investing in the installation of modern and more reliable equipment.

By the way, what do you mean by "airbridges that fall on your aircraft?" I am not saying that this has never happened (I really don't know) ... I'm just curious as to whether you are referring to a specific incident? I certainly don't get the impression that this is a common problem?

In short, why not lighten up a bit? The airport is investing in infrastructure upgrades (and during a recession too) exactly to address the issues you raise. But they can't do everything at once, and there is no way for work-in-progress to be accommodated without some disruption. The airport is doing its best to minimize (because it cannot eliminate) such disruption. What more do you expect?

All the best. SHED.

[mickyman]

ASFKAP

Great post - spot on as usual

MM

[Bagso]

In short, why not lighten up a bit?

..i guess because its really really sad that a once great airport appears to be falling apart !

You would have to work in airport marketing to put a positive spin on what is happening at the minute.

If there was one problem in isolation fair enough but Manchester Airport is facing a culmination of problems brought on by what appears to be lack of investment over numerous years.

Many on here share a sense of frustration because there is no voice in terms challenging what is actually going on.....the local councils never seem to criticise their management team, the regional papers are deafeningly quite so the status quo is maintained....

The current recession should impact on decisions in the future, but is actually being used to hide many faults created by numerous years of senior mis-management !

Problems that should have been addressed years ago when times were good were never fixed, many of these issues have come to a head at the same time !

..as has been said, does anybody have evidence of an airport being closed because the runway is crumbling ? ...if it were not so serious it would almost be humerous !

[TURIN]

..i guess because its really really sad that a once great airport appears to be falling apart

Crikey! When was it great?

Been there for 20 odd years, it's convenient, gives me a way to pay the rent and best of all it isn't LHR. But great? Must have been a loooong time ago. :hmm:

[ZOOKER]

The airport died when Gil Thompson retired.
Sadly what is left is a 'shopping-centre' to be serviced only by public transport. Cars are out.
In the halcyon days of Sir Gil, the airport logo was a 'chocolate orange' with routes radiating all over the globe.
The present logo resembles a dog-t*rd.
MAG would be better-off building a taxiway up to The Trafford Centre and putting airbridges on it. Sorry, I forgot, the Trafford Centre is operated by the owners of EGGP.
One of the most recent exec appointments was allegedly a lady from Wal-Mart.
Says it all.

[wiccan]

The airport died when Gil Thompson retired.
Sorry, but when Gordon Sweetapple left, it went from I am going to DO this.... to..... "Carry on Regardless".....glug.....glug

[mickyman]

The trouble with remembering 'the good old days' is that
memory is subjective.People speak of Manchester in
the same sentence as Heathrow and comparing them is
nonesense.Manchester may have built up a
long-haul network but it has also lost services as well -
It is a regional airport.
Now it seems that it is loosing services at a greater rate than other
regionals - because it was/is a bigger regional fish.
Not having confidence in management in a time of crisis is to
be expected when you are worried about your job.

MM.

[RoyHudd]

Agreed Mickeyman.

Sadly, MAN is generally considered the worst airport in the UK as a working base to fly from. The traffic through Duty-Free, the overbearing Security Staff (not all, but a few nasty ones), the dreadful long ATIS, the apalling taxi markings, the undisciplined vehicular traffic airside, and the crammed International Arrivals Hall in T1 all contribute. (ATC do their best, but their radar gives no indication of wx returns, and this makes approaches/holding difficult during stormy wx).

Not a good airport.

[Seljuk22]

DL cancel JFK from 8th Jan :eek::confused:

[jubilee]

When is Mr. Muirhead due to retire.
Jubilee

[OltonPete]

They are posting on a.net as it is the end of MAN-JFK but is it
not just going seasonable?

Just checked their site and still showing direct on a 757 from June 2010.

Pete

[eggc]

So MAN - NYC, from Jan until June, will be just 10 weekly with COA, plus the odd PIA one way. Not many empty seats there then !!!

[emaint2003]

You are talking about the MD at EMA who came from ASDA and is never seen in the terminal or airside, and whom most of the staff have never met unlike her predecessors who were actually aviation people! The new MD at MAN I believe came from a car part company! So you can see there is a lot of aviation experience at the top of MAG. Even Geoff is a construction bod. EMA has been steadily ruined by MAG interference and politics, a shame really.

[mickyman]

'EMA has been steadily ruined'

Has it really...... and in what way.

MM

[Vuelo]

So MAn loses two more routes today BTS and KSC.

[Mouser]

Never mind Vuelo, Ryanair start Liverpool-Bratislava soon. :)

[conti onepass]

they av been lost cos the airline has gone under!!! im sure someone else will take these routes over.

[MUFC_fan]

Flew into MAN very early this morning and all I can say is what a change around at the airport.

Departed two weeks ago and the experience through MAN was second to non - especially the staff.

I would also like to point out that the hard working crew on a 14 hour shift did a superb job even after arrival at Manchester - well done to the crew at TOM!:ok:

[conti onepass]

ive flown about eight times this year through manchester never really ad a problem with anything, one thing getting to gate 26 in terminal one whats all the stairs about??

[Betablockeruk]

Gone unnoticed (due usual battle of the East Lancs):

Jacobs Engineering Group Inc. (NYSE: JEC) today said it had won a new framework contract to deliver professional engineering services to Manchester Airports Group Plc. Jacobs will be exclusive provider of airfield civil engineering, and mechanical and electrical engineering for MAG's airport facilities and non airport-related developments at Manchester, East Midlands, Bournemouth and Humberside.

Travelators included? :rolleyes:

[PPRuNe Pop]

I have deleted 9 posts that are off topic. If you cannot keep to the topic please go somewhere else.


A&R Mods

[Charlie Roy]

New route: Lourdes

Monday and Fridays for Summer 2010.

[BHX5DME]

Pax - 2,167,227 down 10.02% or 241,225 pax lower than Aug 08

Movements - 16,735 down 13.20% or 2,544 less movements than Aug 08

Freight - 9,329 tonnes down 16.79%

Pax 12m rolling - 19,562,945 down 11.25%

[Bagso]

Parish Notice

New BMIbaby route

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New route: Lourdes

Monday and Fridays for Summer 2010

Rejoice Rejoice......for this is without doubt truly A MIRACLE !

[racedo]

Bagso ........................:ok:

Thats a good one.

[Capitol 203]

The Olympic booking system is showing no MAN-ATH service after 30th September. Can someone in the know confirm that the route is one of those to be culled as a result of the airline's reorganisation.

Cheers.

[ManofMan]

Not sure on that one Capitol...however having just had a quick look at the report its looks a quiet old winter ahead...a quick rundown sees....(apols if already posted by others)

Austrian Having no slots this Winter for the first time in ages.

Continental reducing second flight to 4 x weekly.

CSA - Cancelling all remaining flights. (was 6 x weekly)

KLM - Reducing from 6 to 5 per day.

Ryanair - Cancelling all but Dublin services, (87 weekly departures)

Sky Europe - Gone pop (7 x weekly)

Thomson - movements for this winter will be 27% down on last.

TUI - STR service finishes 30th oct ( 5 per week)

Like i said might be old news, but it looks bleak.

[Ian Brooks]

Couple of positives to add
Germanwings start end of October, Lufthansa upgrading Munich to larger aircraft
KLM will actually have more seats available due to being all B737
Continental is actually 11 weekly not 4 and there are Easyjets new service to Copenhagen etc

Ian

[ManofMan]

Hi Ian,

Understand you positive spin (and believe me i want growth also) but i was talking about movements no seat numbers, with regards to CO i actually specified that i was only talking about the second flight.

My post was merely to show that movement wise it could be a slow winter.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Jet2 has just announced a new MAN-MIR (Tunisia) scheduled service commencing 29.05.2010

News item on 'Crain's Manchester Business'.

[Seljuk22]

What about EK coming with a A380 for one day in September?
What about Saudia pulling out in January?
What about Cathay launch HKG?
What about Norwegian adding CPH and OSL?

Anything true?

[1station]

Saudia is possibly true, all the rest are false I am afraid.:ugh:

[airhumberside]

The airline route updates blog has just posted an update on Saudi's winter schedule. Jeddah-GVA-MAN remains and as previously posted Riyadh is axed

[ManofMan]

Norweigen Shuttle handed back all slots.

[MUFC_fan]

easyJet may have had something to do with that!:ok:

[ian_h1]

Latest from bmi


Unfortunately our services between
Manchester and Glasgow
will end on 18 September 2009.

[Centre cities]

Perhaps I am doing something wrong, I have seen several times that Saudi are continuing one of the Manchester flights, however at present none are bookable from Feb whilst other routes are. Has this been a late decision to continue.

Centre cities

[comet 4b623PW]

I seam to have missed something about this route, only last year it was been operated several times a day by both bmi and flybe. What has forced bmi to slim it down to one flight a day and then to abandon it from later this month. After all bmi and flybe still compete with several flights each a day on the Manchester to Edinburgh route which is a similar distance and which has seemed to grown at a similar rate, at least in terms of flight frequency over the past 20 years.

If it is something do with the current economic climate or competition from flybe then why is the Manchester to Edinburgh not been cut back in a similar fashion.

It is not as if ground transport has suddenly improved between Manchester and Glasgow it still takes nearly four hours on a supposedly express service operated by transpennine express.

[CabinCrewe]

There are all sorts of shennanigans going on behind the scenes with BAA Scotland (GLA/EDI) and this will be part albeit small of the reason for the discrepancy. The contrast between the two is now becoming increasingly transparent. I understand BAA aims to offload GLA after the appeal.

[JackRalston]

Was playing cricket at my local cricket club (Cheadle CC) yesterday and kept noticing that planes on finals for 23R seemed a lot closer and their altitudes deviated quite a bit from each other. Looked like they were either establishing very late on the ILS or was there something wrong with it?

[roverman]

Jack,

The 23R ILS is currently withdrawn because the equipment is being replaced. The standard approach to 23R for the next 2-3 weeks is the VOR/DME procedure which requires aircraft to establish on a radial from the 'MCT' beacon, at a slight offset to the centreline, bringing them to a point where they intersect with the extended runway centreline and continue visually. There is no guidance as to the descent profile other than the procedure 'plate' until the PAPIs can be seen and followed. This is a 'non-precision' approach with higher weather minima than ILS. Looks a bit strange when you are used to seeing the stable and straight-in ILS approach.

[JackRalston]

Roverman,

Thanks, I knew the ILS was been replaced, just didn't know when it was. Thanks though, that makes it a lot clearer. Aircraft seemed to be heading on the radial near our cricket club and once passing parallel to us would then intersect centre line.

[JobsaGoodun]

why is the Manchester to Edinburgh not been cut back in a similar fashion

There is a very significant difference between the MANGLA and EDI routes. Both RBS and HBOS have significantly sized offices in both MAN and EDI. The financial traffic on such routes, even though the banks are suffering just now is high. I imagine that GLA, although still a big market does not have quite such high yield traffic.

This is good news for BE though who now have the market for themselves and have managed to grow the market since the acquisition of BAConnect.

[JETSET115]

Could anyone please tell me what is going on with the taxiways at Man was at the airport on Saturday watching Singapore 777 going ot as i am flying on it soon when to it pushed back and had a follow me service thru the work on taxiway Lima i presume Delta was closed as there was a barrier at alpha intersection. what amazed me that hakfway thru towing the singapore an ops vehicle moved the barrier to let aircraft used Delta due to congestion the blocked it off again i heard atc tell one pilot that ther is only one way in to T2 which is thru works on Taxiway L seems that the airport taxiway system is a shambles at present i know there is alot of taxiway works to be done but at one point there were five aircraft on Alpha waiting to get to there stands but due aircraft departing could not go anywhere as there is only one taxiway in use having spoken with a few pilots seems that they are not to happy with MAG

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

Is it always ATC/Approach Plate that decides the exact radial flown towards the VOR, and will it always be the same heading?

Would more go-arounds be expected during this type of appraoch (for example during the weeks that the ILS is U/S) than normal? - Due to approaches being a little more unstable and possibly because pilots are less used to flying this sort of approach (certainly into MAN).

[CJ1234]

I did it yesterday. It's pretty straight forward - it's the NDB approach that I detest. Didn't encounter any go-arounds though you may see a few people getting unstuck. As I say, the ndb apporach normally sees people going around all over the shop.

As for taxiways, TWY Charlie is closed to C2, and you'll notice works between D4 and D5 - so a/c have to go around using A. Q is closed, C2 is closed, KC is closed and L is unlit.

It's an absolute nightmare at MAN at the mo.

1234

[flyinthesky]

AWR,
the radial flown on the procedure is published on the approach plate. There is a note that the final approach radial is 5 degrees offset from the centreline. Inbound radial is 229 (if I remember correctly!)
It's no great shakes with a reasonable cloudbase and vis. Actually gives us something to think about and fly. Get's us a little more manual handling!
In terms of heading, don't forget that the radial is fixed, the heading you fly will be different due to the wind on the day. I fly the bus, which has a track/ flight path angle feature. Basically, once the aircraft is on the radial, you set that as the track and the flight director will take into account the wind to give a heading to follow. If it's in auto, then it really is no big deal. Hope this explains it.

[ManofMan]

Also whilst playing cricket on Saturday at Woodford i noticed at least three go-arounds, a couple were from quiet far out the other looked more standard (if there is such a thing!!), yesterday whilst out with the kids saw a couple more including a 320 through the approach at about 11 miles before banking to join from the right.

Am i right in saying that as soon as we drop into low viz procedures the whole place will come to a grinding halt ???

[seahawks]

Re Low Vis ops.

There is the potential for more missed approaches and perhaps diversions out due to lack of ILS, however the weather conditions conducive to fog also normally mean nil or light surface wind which would allow use of 05L ILS.
23R ILS is due back CAT1 on 19/10, after a period of reliable service it will be declared CAT3. Work will then commence on 05L ILS replacement.

[Navpi]

Re JETSET115 thread

...I "think" I agree with you sentiments but to be honest I can't tell a bloody word your saying.

Any chance of giving us more mere mortals a sporting chance of deciphering your outpourings, by selecting the more commonly used medium of the English Language.

I know my spelling, punctuation etc can be poor but please just humour us and throw in a full stop here or there , the occasional capital letter or dare I suggest a sprinkling of comma's... ta !

[CJ1234]

A sprinkling of comma's?

Oh dear.
:ugh:

To translate, he merely said that it's chaos at MAN at the moment due to WIP, which should be finished hopefully around October this year. He also said some pilots are getting a little miffed about said chaos, which is true.


1234

[MAN777]

Re Taxiway work, I think pilots would be a bit more miffed if their 777s were allowed to sink into the cheshire clay sat on slabs of 20 year old concrete :rolleyes:

[JETSET115]

Sorry about the grammar NAVPI my point was that T/way D closed so the singapore was towed thru work on T/way L.but half way thru the tow they decided to open Delta to allow the Globespan to taxi in. What was the point in having the Singapore towed out when they could have removed the barrier on T/way Delta, to allow him to taxi out via delta and Alpha to 23L. Seems that the airport have lost the plot

[JETSET115]

Ican see your point MAN777 but the point i was making is that the airport don't seem to have a clue what they are doing on the ground how can an airport the size of Manchester only have one Taxiway avialable for traffic coming from T2 and C pier

[42psi]

Not there on the days mentioned so can't be sure what caused the actual circumstances with the closing/opening of Delta for the globespan ...


However........Twys Delta & Lima are both (normally!!) open (so two not one T2 routes, usually Lima outbound/Delta inbound, 777's use Delta outbound) but with follow-me's during night hours as temporarily diverted centre lines on both are unlit.


There has been works (pits/cabling)in the grass areas alongside Alpha/Delta causing temporary closures of Delta for safety reasons and to allow contractors access to the working areas - mainly at night - although this (the night work) should now be finished for the moment.


There has recently been a temporary closure (hours not days) of Delta to allow some minor repairs opposite the fire station.


Where taxi-ways have been temporarily closed for running repairs they can be opened again at very short notice if it helps resolve a ground movement issue and it's safe to do.e.g. the work was completed and the repair is being given time to "set".

If ATC have a potential ground movement problem/bottleneck, a check of the repair shows it's set quicker than expected so taxiway can be re-opened. It can also be the case that the section closed off/re-opened is precautionary to allow nearby works.

Again if the works have not yet started/are finishing early etc., or the workers can be quickly moved away to a safe spot then it would make sense to open (even temp.) if it helps.


Finally.... sometimes the barriers are placed in positions (such as junction Bravo/Alpha opposite viewing park) to prevent a/c going down a "dead-end" if they take a wrong turn when the work is taking place somewhere else.


You'll often see these removed quickly and then replaced to allow entry/exit to perhaps Ocean Sky/Engine Test Bay etc.


It's not unusual to close sections of taxiways for thing like refreshing paint markings etc when the opportunity arises.

Again if there's no safety issue and there's a need they can be opened again just as easy.



Hope that helps ....


added: if the Singapore was under tow was it going to/from the ETB or the maint. hanger ?? ...... very unusual for the Singapore to be towed anywhere??

[JETSET115]

From what i saw on saturday there didd'nt seem to be any work on T/way Delta,i know in the past that sections of T/ways are closed for minor works like 42Psi has stated ie painting or maintenance but from what i saw nothing was going on . As for the singapore he pushed back from T2 and was towed thru works on T/way L and started engines abeam gate 15 could have been due the pilot not comfortable with taxying past works, although not long after the virging 400 steamed thru. My point was that the airport seems to be a mess if they can open T.ways Delta and close it why not keep it open, rather than have aircraft on T/way Alpha waiting for 10 mins for a gap to taxi to stand due to one t/way being open.

[Scottie Dog]

JETSET115

Please note that Taxiway Delta is closed at D5 - as per the NOTAM below:

Q) EGTT/QMXLC/IV/M/A/000/999/5321N00217W005
FROM: 09/07/03 05:00 TO: 09/10/29 16:00

E) DUE WIP TWY CHARLIE CLSD AT C2, TWY DELTA CLSD BTN D4 AND D5.
TWY QUEBEC CLSD. TWY LIMA UNLIT.
DIVERSION FM ABEAM STAND 100 TO A6, L1 AND D6 REMOVED FM SERVICE.
FOLLOW ME VEHICLE PROVIDED ALONG UNLIT SECTIONS OF TWY DURING HN AND
LVP.

As a result Taxiway Lima is one way out - and the only alternative is to route via Alpha onto Charlie and then round onto Bravo.

I believe, although I can not find reference to it, that there may be an aircraft size limitation for use of Taxiway Lima due to the blast fences that are protecting the work areas. If this is the case, then the SQ 777 might have had to be towed via Lima (to avoid delays to aircraft inbound to Terminal 2) in order to ensure wing-tip clearance when negotiating the chicane to the end of Pier B.

I hope this will help to clarify the situation a little.

Regards

Scottie Dog

[Musket90]

There's a permanent entry in the UK AIP about taxiway Lima being prohibited to B777's. Maybe it's to do with blast from larger engines affecting nearby road traffic

[MUFC_fan]

Heaviest aircraft on 3 sets of wheels maybe?

ORY had a lot of work done to it's taxiways to accept the 77W which has been brought in to replace the 744s which had more wheels meaning more weight distribution.

[opnot]

MUSKET90
you have almost got it , the jet blast from B777 and A340/600 not only effects the road system but also acft and people on stands 23 and 21 as you go around the corner hence the need to be towed.
Oh how I like doing GMC

[mantug01]

BBC News have picked up on Delta dropping the JFK

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Manchester | Airline to pull New York service (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8244002.stm)

[JETSET115]

I can see what your saying opnot but what's the differance between a 777 and a 747-400 surely the 400 would have more jetblast that a 777.I dont know which way the Emirates taxied out on Sauturday,but almost all aircraft went via lima

[opnot]

JETSET115
unfortunately I dont make the rules, only have to try and apply them

[conti onepass]

is anyone going to take over the routes left by skyeurope. from what i have heard they were pretty full most of the time.

[spannersatcx]

but what's the differance between a 777 and a 747-400 surely the 400 would have more jetblast that a 777

777 GE90 powered jet blast at breakaway power goes back 670 feet, the 744 jetblast at breakaway power goes back 590 feet. (according to boeing anyway)

[JETSET115]

OPNOT does that mean that the singapore 777 gets towed to abeam pier B everday if taxiway Delta is closed.

[opnot]

JET115
any B777 yes

[42psi]

That long since Delta 5 was open I'd forgotten about it :E

opnot .. I believe there's some paint going down to try and help the lost & wandering outbound abeam 27. :ooh:

[conti onepass]

nowt major, but jet2 stating manchester to funchal from s10

[Ametyst2]

Olympic are to discontinue the Manchester to Athens route from the 1st October

[Ian Brooks]

Not suprising, they are dropping all German routes as well including Frankfurt
so I suspect they are going back to basics and starting all over again

Ian B

[Ringwayman]

AA's confirmed that they will be starting JFK services next year.

[MUFC_fan]

Great news, however, it may have an effect on DL's return. Saying that - they operated even when BA were on the route!

Link:

AMR Corporation Takes Significant Steps to Face Near-Term Challenges - MarketWatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/amr-corporation-takes-significant-steps-to-face-near-term-challenges-2009-09-17)

I assume 757 or can we hope for a 767?!:}

I guess this is only the start of an the ATI deal with BA that should surely go through!

[roverman]

Let's hope this time it sticks. AA have tried everything out of MAN over their 23 years here - double-daily ORD, daily MIA, DFW, BOS, and JFK at least once before. yet we are still back at what they started with in 1986 - a daily ORD 767!

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Can't see it having any affect on Delta's return in May (they are off the route for less than 4 months anyway).

I'm reliably told AA should be daily JFK from summer '06, and ORD will be 12 x weekly, all 3 rotations with 757s.

SBR.

[Curious Pax]

Hadn't heard that Delta's dropping of the JFK route was just a short break, but their web timetable looks to confirm it will restart with a 21st May departure from JFK, again with 757s.

[Ant6747]

Found this link, a press release about the AA JFK route

Air & Business Travel News:
American Airlines announces new route from Manchester to New York (press release) | ABTN (http://www.abtn.co.uk/press-releases/1713120-american-airlines-announces-new-route-manchester-new-york-press-release)

This says that the service will be a seasonal summer service and shows a provisional AA210 07:55 arrival and AA22111:10 departure from MAN.

"American will fly the new route with two-class (Business and Economy) Boeing 757-200 aircraft reconfigured for international operations. The service will offer a total of 182 seats, including 16 lie-flat Business Class seats"

Ant6747 :)

[Seljuk22]

AA from 16th May til 30th September with B757 to JFK

[Ringwayman]

The AA efforts have been handicapped by unwillingness of one airline to codeshare the route to MIA lest it handicapped their own LHR service; BOS I heard strange murmurings about that self-same airline doing their best to boost their BOS service by hiving off the lower fare pax to route via MAN. DFW was okay for the numbers carried but was not the most effective hub for where AA's ambitions lay. ORD is curious in that they got the route despite BA howling - the double daily services were operated summer-only for 3 years but I don't think 2 767s is the way forward if they want capacity and frequency. JFK will see them use the AA hub, you know the hub the airline I've accidentally forgotten the name of somehow neglected to work out that they could send 767s into and get the pax onward via codeshares on AA's services (if it works, I fail to see how BA couldn't get it to work).

[Going loco]

Ringwayman - so what's the seat cost per km of a 757 operating out of a large crew/engineering base vs a 767 operating as a single unit?

[jongeman]

Has anyone ever noticed that Ametyst from Liverpool ALWAYS announces or comments on route/airline discontinuations from MAN? I don't think this has ever been mentioned before.

[mybrico]

so whats your point? - I am pleased somebody posts this information. I like to know what routes are going, what routes are starting as well as what routes may go or start (rumours)

[TURIN]

Ringwayman - so what's the seat cost per km of a 757 operating out of a large crew/engineering base vs a 767 operating as a single unit?

Ringwayman has a point.

BA always said that the reason they dropped the route was because "there is no call for longhaul travel from the regions":rolleyes:

[mickyman]

I take my 'hat off 'to AA they do keep trying despite
obstacles etc

Good luck to them!

MM

[Skipness One Echo]

BA always said that the reason they dropped the route was because "there is no call for longhaul travel from the regions"

Really? I dare you to supply a link to a named source from BA saying this. BA simply need to feed everything through their main hub to make it pay and not fragment the market by competing with themselves. People on here love comparing apples and pears!

If MAN-JFK was such a fecking goldmine then explain why Delta just dumped it till next summer then?

[MAN777]

Manchester Airport up for three awards : Manchester Airport News Stories (http://www.uk-airport-news.info/manchester-airport-news-170909.html)

[Bagso]

Those "Excellence awards in full"

1) Largest airport in the UK with the biggest network of unusable taxiways.

2) Largest airport in the UK to lose 60% of its US long haul schedules.

3) Largest airport in the UK to actually win a passenger "excellence award", this despite losing such a massive chunk of its operational schedules !

What on earth are they measuring, the % increase year on year on Geoff’s pension ?

We s/b up for a BAFTA next... "Titanic 2" bloody hell where's my
grief councillors number..!

[Musket90]

The term "customer" can cover a multitude of people, organisations etc. at airports. Clearly these awards do not cover every aspect. It's all marketing bulls**t, telling us all what they want us to hear. It doesn't just apply to MAN.

[conti onepass]

what bitterness!!!

60% of amercian flights lost, where did you get that from, has GATWICK not lost nearly all its american flights to heathrow... whats left there now!!!

[Bagso]

As was pointed out these awards are absolute bunkum.....!

and to be honest I really couldn't give a stuff about Gatwick quite frankly !

If Heathrow had more runways and more terminals it would cease to exist, its a totally different proposition !

[Ian Brooks]

Where do you get 60% lost, I make it about 45% and that includes an airline
that only does London and airline that no longer does long haul whch accounts for about 60% of what we have lost, of the others lost most are returning and we stand to gain some services next year.
Outside London Manchester probably has more services to US than the rest of the UK put together.
Heathrow has ridden the recession better than most in the UK due I guess to it`s position but the recession has hit the UK/US market very hard for several reasons
1, the banking collapse 2.the strength of the Dollar against pound 3. lack of money for holiday makers(double wammy with No2 factored in)
American Airlines and Delta have hurt very much over the last year or so and have cut back many routes not just from the UK but all over Europe

Ian B

[Ringwayman]

There's a competition between DUB and MAN for extra Etihad services according to the Irish Times.

[Apple1234]

Did anyone see the gentleman completely flip today
at T1 Jet2 check in, so much so he was spoken to by
the police and a few statements were given by staff and pax?
The gentleman is a Mr Meeson.

[RoyHudd]

Shouting at his own staff? Quite possible. (Many was the time at Channex in BOH.)

Shouting at MAN Security? Much wished-for activity for many of us, but quite dodgy!

[MUFC_fan]

There's a competition between DUB and MAN for extra Etihad services according to the Irish Times.


Etihad ringing Emirates:

EY: Hi Sheik Emirates;), what are your plans for Manchester?

EK: A380 by next year.

Press release the following day: ETIHAD INCREASE SERVICES TO DUBLIN.

:}

[The96er]

Phil Meeson ( Owner of JET2 for those who dont know ) was indeed cautioned by police today at MAN, so concerned were they that they even posted plain clothes officers at Jet2 check-in in case he came back !! Apparently he used the F-word more that Gorden Ramsey in front of passengers. I guess bullying young check-in girls and reducing them to tears makes him feel more of a man !! :rolleyes:

[MUFC_fan]

Don't Jet2 employ their own PSAs?:\

[The96er]

Jet2 are handled by Aviance at MAN, although they do have a handful of their own staff there. They self-handle at LBA.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Clearly, he hadn't taken advantage of the online check-in facility, and his party was seated in 4E, 11B, 15C and 27D :}

[TURIN]

[QUOTE] Really? I dare you to supply a link to a named source from BA saying this./QUOTE]

Oooh a dare. What? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

I should have qualified my statement, It is what the staff were told at the time.

As for the rest of your rant..take a chill pill.:rolleyes:

[BKS Air Transport]

Jet2...

'Friendly low fares'

Better scrub the 'friendly' bit then :}

[silverhawk]

I'm not endorsing any alleged outrageous behaviour, but no-one can doubt his commitment or enthusiasm or passion.

I can understand some of the frustration. As employees we share that every day.

Maybe together we can fix some of that. RQ.

[TheMaskedDispatcher]

According to the rumour mill the phrases 'berserk', 'insane' and 'deranged' were being bandied about regarding saturday's Ground Level Checkin shenanagins. As 96er says some people would rather have a go at young girls on checkin than aim the same level of abuse at say Baggage handlers with the attendant risk of a well-deserved black-eye.

Sad to see yet another example of 'one rule for one, one rule for another', rest assured that had that been a passenger abusing staff in such a way then they would be swiftly aquainted with one of MAN Plod's Finest Residential Overnight accomodations . .bucket supplied (and unlike many airlines, no extra charge!).

Pity that the abundant signs indicating that 'Abuse towards staff will not be tolerated' doesnt extend to those who are supposed to be part of the same 'team'

T-M-D

[theloudone]

A true professional then, this Mr Meeson !

[Skipness One Echo]

Turin :
If MAN-JFK was such a fecking goldmine then explain why Delta just dumped it till next summer then?


Thoughts? This was my point, not a rant, which you seem to have ignored. Play the ball, not the man, and answer the point posed.

[Ametyst2]

JongemanI have made a number of similar posts with regards to route closures/route starts on a number of other threads including Liverpool, Gatwick, Heathrow etc. I do not think anything precludes me from mentioning route closures at all. If nobody else has posted the information then I will do so. If I have done a lot of posts on the Manchester thread with regards to route closures then that is because there have been a lot of them recently. I am sure it will be some other airports turn soon.

[jamesd123]

A Vulcan V Bomber is expected to do a Fly Past at Manchester On sunday the 27th September according to Manchester Airports *******

This Sunday 27-Sept, get to our AVP Manchester Airport : Viewing Park (http://bit.ly/XTW2u) for a fly past by a preserved Vulcan V-bomber. Expected 1600-1630 weather permitting

James

[mantug01]

Be good if it can make it!

It seems as if its passing by on its way to Southport.


Vulcan to the Sky Trust - Flight Operations (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/FlightOperations.asp)

[TURIN]

Thoughts? This was my point, not a rant, which you seem to have ignored. Play the ball, not the man, and answer the point posed.

I think the word "fecking" made it appear to me like a rant.


As for playing the ball etc. You have posted many times your opinion regarding MAN and it's place in your world. The 'ball' and 'man' in this context seem to be one and the same.

All the best. :ok:

[TheMaskedDispatcher]

Seems the M.E.N and a noted airline have turned Saturday's disgrace into todays triumph!

Attention Mr Walsh and Mr Branson, in order to increase productivity and pretend that you only care about your customers please pop into any of your checkins and abuse the staff . .you will be applauded wildly and gain buckets of free publicity . . .erm only if you do it at MAN where the M.E.N (comfortably in the pockets of MAplc) will be delighted to trumpet your glory . . . and the readers will agree (much jowl-wobbling 'if i ran MY business like that . . .'etc . .oh run an airline do you?)

BURN THE EVENING NEWS . . . The TRUTH WILL OUT!!

Join the revolution
Truth-Must-Destroy

[The96er]

Good to read that the M.E.N believes that the antics of Mr Meeson were all perfectly acceptable in the wider interest of public service, maybe next time when I'm at the airport and I feel that I'm receiving a poor service, I'll kick a few bollards, reduce members of staff to tears, call the supervisor a B*!ch, say to the duty manager " I'm not shaking your F***ing hand " and shout random swear words at the top of my voice !!! . Was also interesting to read that the check in wasn't open for those passengers because Jet2's rules stated that it was too early to be open for that particular flight - oh, sorry, it doesn't mention that does it. Why let the facts get in the way of a good story. :mad:

[ls_jet2]

Airline boss frustrated by delays launches foul-mouthed attack on his OWN check-in staff | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1215484/Airline-boss-frustrated-delays-launches-foul-mouthed-attack-OWN-check-staff.html)

[lfc84]

We are family-friendly

Really? Shouting foul and abusive language at people the way he did....:eek:

If there were any families present, I doubt they think it was acdeptable for the kids to hear it all

[Curious Pax]

Interesting that he is reported as saying he wants a queueless check-in. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that the number of check-in staff on duty for Jet2 at any one time is directly proportional to the depth into which he is prepared to insert his hand into his pocket. As such either his handling agent didn't provide the contracted number of staff, or he isn't paying for enough of them (or if they self-handle he isn't paying for enough of them!).

[mickyman]

Maybe he just mis-read MOL's handbook on public relations etc....!!

MM

[TheMaskedDispatcher]

Curious,

you are completely correct . . and i'm told there not only WERE sufficient (as per SLA) staff on but it was also 20 mins BEFORE the stated time they are supposed to open.

Only rumour you understand, though as it comes from people who were there without axe to grind i'm inclined to believe them.

Nice to see the Daily Mail readers getting behind the Aggressor too . .though one has to ask oneself at what point do Daily Mail readers ever travel budget airlines . .'budget?oh yes i'm on a budget, i have to travel Premium Economy nowadays!':E
He's passionate about Customer Service . . . I'M passionate about money . .anyone coming with me to the Bank with a shotgun? :ok:

T-M-Bankrobber

[flybar]

Seems the M.E.N and a noted airline have turned Saturday's disgrace into todays triumph!



This is what people are paid to do.
Excellent publicity for the airline.
We all know that you should never believe everything that you read in the newspapers, but most people do just that.

[paully]

He may have gone down well with some of his less patient customers but doesnt do much for relations with his staff does it? still he come straight from the `Mike Baldwin` school of management...`I pay so I own you`...dont suppose he will care over much :ugh:

[Albert Hall]

The man genuinely is appalling. I have once experienced one of his rants and it was unedifying to say the least. I know of many others who have also been on the receiving end. His temper is simply uncontrolled and if Saturday's display at Manchester was anything like the one I saw, I think it was absolutely right of the staff to call the police. I find it absolutely amazing that the CAA continue to allow Meeson near the running of an airline. His terrible reaction to bad news cannot encourage an open reporting culture within the company which I believe is not in the best interests of flight safety. What's even worse are the various uninformed folk commenting on the Daily Mail site who are condoning his actions. He might even think it's acceptable.

[bar none]

Those "Excellence awards in full"

I arrived at Man at about 0030 today. As I walked down pier C I read lots of self congratulating posters telling me how Man had world class facilities and how customer focused the airport was. All the passengers had plenty of time to read them as they trudged the length of C pier because not one of the travellators was working !

[MAN777]

Bar none

The old travelator problem, I agree its b**dy annoying after a long flight and I am able bodied, what it must be like for those that struggle to walk, I know there are wheelchairs, but many are too proud to ask for help.

Are they deliberately switched off for conservation or are they broke ?

Now heres one to test the combined wealth of knowledge of pprune,

How much does a moving walkway cost to run per hour ??

[RoyHudd]

One was working this morning at 0500L. Noteworthy.

UK's shabbiest airport.

[theloudone]

Albert Hall

Totally agree with you, and he is supposed to be an ex RAF officer !
I see the whole incident has now made the pages of the BBC web site
BBC NEWS | UK | England | Manchester | Police reprimand for airline boss (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8271558.stm)
Maybe he should stick to running lorries.

[Mr A Tis]

Could I just say, I arrived at Atlanta terminal E the other week, the gate was a substantial walk to immigration. All the travelators bar one were u/s.
So, maybe we shouldn't pick on MAN so much.

[ls_jet2]

All the passengers had plenty of time to read them as they trudged the length of C pier because not one of the travellators was working !

Pier C isn't that long, I regularly go down to the end of there, it's a couple of minutes walk, that's all:rolleyes:. Pier B, which I also frequent is much longer and doesn't even have any travelators:bored:. Maybe they should get rid of them, then there'll be nothing to moan about:ugh::ugh:.

[lplsprog]

I thought the travellators had sensors on them so that the only operated when people approach? It could be that seeing them stationary people by -pass them thinking there u/s.

[ManofMan]

I find it totally unnaceptable that in this day and age people have to use their own legs to walk, whatever next.

Just the other day i arrived at Manchester to find the travelators out of order, i had to do something that surely only animals should have to do...I used my own legs, it was sheer hell, i had to walk nearly 200 yards......that was Saturday and i am glad to advise i have just gotten over it.

This place gets more and more like America everyday, drivethrough cash machines next ??

[Betablockeruk]

next ??

Wall-E Cruise Ship Chairs :}

[IB4138]

Just the other day i arrived at Manchester to find the travelators out of order, i had to do something that surely only animals should have to do...I used my own legs, it was sheer hell, i had to walk nearly 200 yards......that was Saturday and i am glad to advise i have just gotten over it.

You were lucky to observe any travelators and just walked ManofMan.

T3 does not have any travelators. I had to walk....and climb steps upon departing on Sunday! :eek:

My calves have still not recovered. :ooh:

;)

[bar none]

--ManofMan--

I think you are missing the point. We can all walk. But is it not slightly ironic that a set of travelators, none of which work, are situated immediately below signs that tell us how Man is a world class, customer focused airport?
Also, does anybody know why the exit doors from the Customs Hall have been narrowed at great expense so as to make it very tricky for someone with wide baggage, i.e. golf clubs, to negotiate?

[MAN777]

Manchester named airport of the year : Manchester Airport News Stories (http://www.uk-airport-news.info/manchester-airport-news-240909.html)

[airbuddie]

Also, does anybody know why the exit doors from the Customs Hall have been narrowed at great expense so as to make it very tricky for someone with wide baggage, i.e. golf clubs, to negotiate?

Yes they are using 'anti-backtrack' doors which are very narrow, to allow only one person to exit through them at any one time.
They are designed so not to allow re-entry into the baggage reclaim hall.
Therefore no need to have a security post there either.
Basically it may inconveniance you, but it saves the airport a lot of money.

[RoyHudd]

But there is a security post at the 3 exit doors from T1 Baggage Hall, so where is the cost saving.

1 was out of action yesterday morning leaving 2. Is this a good route for hundreds to escape quickly in the event of a fire? Because this is where they would head, no doubt. The big funnel for egress is though the Customs Channels.

Rubbish Airport. Take it from one of the workers.

[Ian Brooks]

Looks as if Bratislava will be served from MAN once again with a service
by Danube Wings with a B734

Ian B

[BAladdy]

Not sure if this has already been posted. Apologies if it has

CSA will drop PRG/MAN as of 25OCT09

airline route updates: CSA Czech ends Manchester service (http://www.airlineroute.net/2009/09/csa-czech-ends-manchester-service.html)

[airbuddie]

The guard will be removed in the near future, as they have already done on
T3arrivals.
The doors will then be monitored by GMP via cctv, and you know how long it takes GMP to respond....

[TechProblem]

2. Is this a good route for hundreds to escape quickly in the event of a fire? Because this is where they would head, no doubt.

As most electrified doors throughout the airport, they stay open in the evert of a major fire alarm in that section. Also this is not the only escape route out of that hall.

[nilcostoptionmyass]

Its a joke airport, travellators not working, escalators not working, grubby liitle passages that need painting..... welcolme to the 1970's.

Waiting to see what EK management are going to make of it when 500 pax de-plane a 380 and have to go downstairs, upstairs, downstairs, upstairs, across a bit, downstairs, (getting wet on the way if it's raining since the roof leaks on 'b' pier), then have to turn and twist past the silly little shop before they can finally get fleeced with the car park...

:ugh:

[pwalhx]

I am a little tired of reading all these moans and groans about the walking up and down, long distance etc, like Manchester is the only airport it happens, I can assure you have had similar experiences at Gatwick and Dusseldorf to name but two other airports in the last 10 days.

It's not great but lets be fair it certainly isn't unusual.

[Musket90]

EK may prefer their pax to get off the aircraft and be bussed to the terminal, as occasionally happens in DXB.

[MancRy]

Sorry....but have you actually seen some of the places that EK operate into?

[Ernest Lanc's]

Its a joke airport, travellators not working, escalators not working, grubby liitle passages that need painting..... welcolme to the 1970's.

This is a horrible post.

[jubilee]

After a sit down of X number of hours,I prefer to walk to passport control,if only to stretch the legs. Are we becoming as a nation that lazy,looking at the number of obese passengers in the airport then the answer is yes. Walking is good for you,so if you are able do so,you may even find it is good for your health.

On another note on Thursday evening we came back from Palma on a Astreus757, instead of the Monarch A321. Are Monarch still short of aircraft,or is it tech problems.
Regards,
Jubilee

[aidoair]

On another note on Thursday evening we came back from Palma on a Astreus757, instead of the Monarch A321. Are Monarch still short of aircraft,or is it tech problems.

Monarch have used this aircraft for almost the entire summer season, so it wasn't just a sub-charter for that particular flight. I would guess it's because they have had busier schedule that has required them to have an aircraft aircraft in the fleet during these months, while still being able to have at least a back-up aicraft on hand too, based at either LGW or MAN...

[Ian Brooks]

I believe it was due to non acceptance of an A321 earlier this year
( maybe the ex GB/Easy machine which arrived at MAN earlier in year and departed again after a short period of storage )
I think there is further info on Monarch thread a while back

Ian B

[LPFR]

Yeah, they are using Astraeus, Air Finland, BMI and Viking aircrafts due to the a/c shortages.

[1station]

Vulcan to fly missed approach tomorrow at Approx 1610hrs. :ok:

[jubilee]

Thanks for the info regarding the Monarch aircraft. I was aware of the Air Finland,but not the others.
Regards,
Jubilee

[lexxity]

Saw the Vulcan. It was great. :ok:

[MAN777]

Long time since we have had a "proper" sounding aeroplane on the approach:ok::)


YouTube - philindi1001's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/philindi1001)

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

I know that the NOTAM stated that MAN's 23R ILS would be up and running again by 1st October. Just wondering if that is still on target? The weather has been pretty good over the last month, although the cloudbase seems to have been quite low at times during the last couple of days.... but VOR approach and the odd visual approach still seem to have been the norm to 23R.
I assumed that after the recent calibration flights more than a week ago that the ILS might have been back in operation a little sooner.

[Scottie Dog]

As you say, the ILS has a NOTAM to be out of service until 1200 on 30th September.

I understand that it will then be certified as CAT1 until at least 300 hours of service, without failure, have been accumulated. At the stage it should then be certified to CAT111.

I'm sure that one of our ATC personnel (or Roverman) will confirm my understanding of the situation - or otherwise.

[brian70]

What kind of final did the Vulcan do on Sunday as I was looking out for it with my kids and didn't see it. I live about 6 or 7 miles out on the 23R approach

[Ringwayman]

Believe it was less than a mile, unfortunately.

[EGCC4284]

YouTube - Avro Vulcan XH558 Manchester Airport (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UT6WoyCrYA)

[42psi]

Brian it didn't do a 23R final as such.

After the woodford farewell it made an S turn to join 23L around the midpoint heading east.

Then annother turn left onto 23R well before reaching the 23R threshold, heading west.

[Rob Courtney]

We saw it below cloud near Leigh, was a bit of a shock I can tell you as I wasnt expecting it (nearly fell of my bike!) It was great to see the old girl and be able to point out to my kids what a proper british built aircraft used to look (and sound) like.

At that altitude I bet it shocked some Cessna drivers as well!!

Rob

[ManofMan]

First new service for a while.....

Lufthansa to start a 2 x weekly MD11F service, operates on a Thursday and Sunday.

[MAN777]

The LH service is that on behalf of somebody or as LH ?

The MD11s have lost work at EMA recently with arrival of the new DHL 767s.

[brian70]

Is there a start date for the new LH MD-11 service?

[Betablockeruk]

End of October :ok:

[wools]

from another site reports LH Cargo schedule for MAN as:-

LH8165 Thursday JFK-MAN-FRA. Arrives 1920,departs 2050.
LH8211 Sunday DFW-MAN-FRA. Arrives 1955, departs 2125

belive start 29 and 31 Oct respectively

Rgds

[Egerton Flyer]

Brian.

End of October Thursday & Sunday:ok:

E.F.

[A330ETOPS]

What's the crack with Singapore?? Are they pulling out all together or merely cutting back??

[TURIN]

Last I heard SIA were continuing with 3 per week, increasing to 5 a week over the Solstice holidays.

Where did you see/hear they were pulling out?

[parky747]

I see that the new AA summer route MAN-JFK now on sale, but why no BA codeshare?

What are AA's TATL B757's cabins like? I bet its not a patch on the BA 767 that once was!