MANCHESTER - 7

[ManofMan]

Im afraid that they could have brushed/de-iced/used dynomite today, the snow was falling with such ferosity it simply couldnt be swept away quick enough. Still...have to feel for the KLM passengers, arrived at about 9 am this morning ans were still sat on board at 3pm, when the pilot informed his handlers that the toilets were full.....nice.

[Sir George Cayley]

LX pax to ZRH sat aboard from 08.10 to 15.30 with no idea if and when they'd get away. Eventually, flt canx and told to try again tomorrow.

Heard from another source that there was the usual disconnect between agencies that led to numerous missed slots.

Perhaps putting a few de-icing rigs at the holding bay under these exceptional circumstances would break the negative feedback loop that develops. Oh, and those night stop airlines that watch the weather get the handlers to turn their a/c nose out overnight so push back tugs not gettin' any grip doesn't spoil the day.

And CFMU saying first come first served, we'll break out into a sweat but we can handle it - eg turn off the iron brain.

I know it's only once or twice a year but how difficult can it be to pull together instead of slavishly following the FIDS?

Good luck for Monday and Tuesday:ok:

Sir George Cayley

[Mouser]

Manchester once again excels closeing again why! snow flury and again closes for the second time this week, but again tries to hide this with a arrivals/departures web page that is under maitenece on a Sunday morning.

[Ian Brooks]

Certainly no flurry here but the stupid thing go about 10 miles south and you run out of it

Ian

[seahawks]

ref 2249

It is simply too easy yo sit on the sidelines and moan when the operation turns to sh1t. For most of the day the cloudbase would have precluded arrivals using VOR/DME on 23L. Several arrivals on 23R must have been very close to minima on the CAT1 ILS approach. With a steady 7-10kt sw wind changing to 05 with a contaminated runway was not an option either.

Snow clearing during snow fall is truly a thankless task, the black top created behind the snow brushes is already white in the 7-8 minutes it takes to make one run along the runway.

Most of the snow fleet after after working on 23R goes on to taxiway work, they don't clear off to base for a brew.

This was a very difficult weather situation with heavy snowfall and freezing temperatures combined and a thunderstorm for good measure. Three consecutive departures experienced lightning strikes with one diverting back in.

As to the KLM, I doubt they will be using Man as an alternate for a while and I am sure MA will be investigating the issues surrounding that flight and the VIR74 whose pax and crew must have been pretty pissed off. Overall though not a bad effort in a situation which some of you do not grasp the difficulty.

Best,

Hawks.

[Suzeman]

Well said seahawks - it's a bit different when you are out there instead of sitting in an armchair in a warm home, supposing you know what is going on. Been there, done that. Nothing like a warm cuppa and a bacon sarny whilst clearing snow - the refreshments used to come to you rather than going back to base.

Can someone in the know explain why the very expensive concrete strip in Cheshire has not been used today, at a time when I thought having a second snow free runway would pay dividends. In my simple logic why not keep sweeping all day alternating the runways ?

They are only allowed to use certain runways at certain times with certain departure patterns
MUFC - The latter comment is rubbish. 23L/05R can be used in extremis when it is supposed to be closed (subject to an inspection first) when emergencies happen, as in fact it did last week when the BE Dash 8 did a pax evacuation on 05L

At present 23L-05R is not scheduled to be used on Sunday am as the traffic doesn't warrant it. Therefore the priority would have been to keep the one runway open with the resources they had on overnight. After the Saturday pm snowfall, the temperatures dropped rapidly to reach a low of -7 at 0300. But working all night, the airfield was open first thing this morning. Perhaps the intention was to get onto 05R/ 23L then?

However, ManofMan is quite correct. There were then a succession of showers dumping a few cm at a time with clear patches of 20 minutes or so in between. As seahawks says a blacktop surface can go white again in 7-8 minutes, so just as you have cleared it you are back to square one and have to close again as soon as the contamination gets too great. There is about 10 cm of snow lying so hardly a flury (sic) Mouser.

Here are the METARS

EGCC 201750Z 21010KT 9999 FEW011 SCT027 01/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201720Z 23014KT 9999 BKN012 01/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201650Z 23014KT 220V280 9999 -SHSN BKN011 01/01 Q0994=
EGCC 201620Z 22012KT 9999 SHSN BKN008 01/01 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201550Z 24010KT 4500 SHSN BKN009 01/01 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201520Z 22011KT 4500 -SHSN BKN010 01/01 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201450Z 23008KT 4500 -SHSN FEW007 BKN017 01/01 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201420Z 23008KT 5000 TSSN FEW002 BKN011 00/00 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201350Z 24014KT 3000 TSSN FEW003 BKN011 00/00 Q0994 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201320Z 21011KT 4000 -SHSN FEW003 SCT021 01/00 Q0993=
EGCC 201250Z 21010KT 0900 R23R/0750 SHSN FEW003 BKN006 00/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201220Z 23014KT 1100 R23R/1100 SHSN SCT008 BKN011 00/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201150Z 22013KT 190V260 3900 -SHSN FEW006 SCT011 00/00 Q0995 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201120Z 19006KT 0800 R23R/P1500 SHSN FEW002 BKN012 M00/M00 Q0995 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201050Z 21008KT 0800 R23R/0750 SHSN FEW002 BKN013 M01/M01 Q0996=
EGCC 200950Z 17005KT 9999 4600E VCSH FEW018 SCT030 M03/M03 Q0997 RESN=
EGCC 200920Z 16006KT 9999 4000NW -SHSN FEW030 M03/M04 Q0997=
EGCC 200850Z 17006KT 9000 FEW011 SCT018 M03/M04 Q0997=
EGCC 200820Z 16006KT 9999 FEW011 SCT033 M04/M05 Q0998=
EGCC 200750Z 15004KT 9999 FEW011 SCT018 M04/M05 Q0998 SNOCLO=
EGCC 200720Z 15005KT 2000 -SN FEW005 BKN021 M04/M05 Q0998=
EGCC 200650Z 20005KT 170V230 9000 -SN FEW005 SCT036 M05/M07 Q0999=

Could someone in the know tell me what the current rules are re runways and snow clearing in the UK or point me in the right direction? Several UK carriers were saying their ops manuals would let them depart with some contamination on the runway so why not at MAN? Never heard what the answer was.

As Sir George has pointed out, there seemed to be disconnets in information flow - do the Airport have some sort of emergency centre for use by personnel from all the relevant agencies to coordinate actions in this type of situation? I'm sure they must have, so how about some Collaborative Decision Making? ZRH has a tremendous centre which is used on a normal basis to coordinate operations and which is a boon when exceptional situations develop and I believe MUC does something similar to minimise delays and make best use of capacity and slots.

As seahawks noted once the runway is sorted there are then taxiways and stands to clear and that's where I believe it all started going wrong. Outbounds were stuck on cleared stands as the airfield was SNOCLO and not enough vacant safe stands led to the delays mentioned earlier as the snow teams had to keep going back to the runway. Maybe there were not enough resources available, but you have to balance the pieces of snow kit available with the number of times the kit is going to be used. Any business decison contains risk and maybe the chance of this sort of thing happening once a year was a risk the Airport chose to take?

The Virgin 747 was waiting for nearly 4 hours for a stand whilst the KLM waited until 1300 for some steps and buses by which time his bogs were full. I heard a story that the Cpt threatened to pop the chutes if the buses didnt arrive shortly.

but again tries to hide this with a arrivals/departures web page that is under maitenece on a Sunday morning.

Not sure it was under maintenance as it is still on the emergency page at this time of night. Maybe it crashed due to the volume of traffic on the website, especially with SKY saying all flights were cancelled. However, exceptional situations are the time you need accurate info most! :ugh:

But true to form, Mr Mouser suspects a conspiricy..... Why on earth would the airport try to hide it? I'm sure there were enough p*ssed off pax on their mobiles as it was happening.

Anyway, as Norman Lamont said, "it has been a very difficult day" and at least the operation did keep going just about. Hopefully the post mortem will reveal plenty of areas for improvement by all agencies rather than a finger pointing exercise. But I wonder......Oops, sorry mickeyman must be positive -it WILL be a constructive exercise in making sure that lessons are learned and it won't happen again.

This old git's off to bed now :ok:

Suzeman

[Musket90]

Suzeman

Regarding regulations for snow clearance in UK - CAP168 (CAA Aerodrome Licensing) Chapter 3, Appendix 3D has the detail. Basically clear the runway full length and width to "black top" together with anti-icing to provide friction levels that are safe for aircraft use.

All the airports should do it this way. It's fine once the runway is cleared and some taxiways are available but one of the major problems are the stands many of which just can't be cleared because of parked aircraft. Also the ground handling can be treacherous in such poor conditions. Manchester is not alone in experiencing this type of situation as it's occurred many times at other airports during heavy snowfall and freezing temperatures.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

CAP168, Appendix 3D

3 Clearance Techniques
3.1 Whenever possible, the full length and width of runways should be cleared
completely. Mechanical snow clearing equipment, such as blowers, sweepers,
ploughs and rotary brushes, should form the main part of the snow clearance
equipment used at most large aerodromes. As far as practicable, clearance
techniques employed should prevent the build-up of snow banks. Where this is
unavoidable, every effort should be made to restrict snow banks to such a height and
distance apart as to ensure safe manoeuvring of the most critical aircraft, in this
context, normally using the aerodrome (see Chapter 3, paragraph 11.2.5).
3.2 Slush and associated standing water should be cleared whilst it is forming. Clearance
may have to be repeated at intervals and some interruption of operations may be
inevitable.
3.3 Chemicals used for clearing or preventing the formation of ice should be fit for the
purpose, non-toxic and should have no detrimental effects on aircraft, aerodrome
surfaces, or the friction value of aerodrome pavements. Salt is a particularly corrosive
chemical and should be employed only where its use is essential to the prevention of
contaminant build-up around edge drains.

4 Operational Priorities for the Treatment and Clearance of Movement
Areas
4.1 Aerodrome licence holders should ensure that all parts of the movement area that are
in use have adequate surface friction levels, especially during winter operations.
4.2 Where contamination exists, licence holders should determine the level of treatment
and clearance needed and the order of priority in which it should take place. The order
of priority will depend upon many factors; however, it should be a general policy to
treat and clear in the following order:
a) runway(s) in use, including rapid exits and starter extensions;
b) all runway holding areas, taxiways and aprons that are to be used;
c) all other areas and roads.

Of relevance yesterday:

5.3 Snow Banks

5.3.1 The height of snow banks and their distance apart shall be reported as soon as a situation arises that these affect safe manoeuvring by the most critical aircraft, in this context, normally using the aerodrome.
Details of acceptable snow bank profiles for
certain large aircraft are given at paragraph 11.2.5 of Chapter 3.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP168.PDF

For the perennial Manchester Moaners, take heart from the fact DUS was closed for 6 hours, CDG had 40% of its flights cancelled yesterday, and today is running at 50% capacity with 20% of today's flights already cancelled.

[ManofMan]

Mouser.

Once again you excel with you anti Manchester CRAP !! : -

Manchester once again excels closeing again why! snow flury and again closes for the second time this week, but again tries to hide this with a arrivals/departures web page that is under maitenece on a Sunday morning.

Why do you post this tosh ?? its un-informed rubbish, i am begining to think (infact no i have thought for a long time) that your posts are posted mainly to get a response, have a look at the metars for yesterday morning...

EGCC 201250Z 21010KT 0900 R23R/0750 SHSN FEW003 BKN006 00/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201220Z 23014KT 1100 R23R/1100 SHSN SCT008 BKN011 00/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201150Z 22013KT 190V260 3900 -SHSN FEW006 SCT011 00/00 Q0995 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201120Z 19006KT 0800 R23R/P1500 SHSN FEW002 BKN012 M00/M00 Q0995 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201050Z 21008KT 0800 R23R/0750 SHSN FEW002 BKN013 M01/M01 Q0996=

The snow was that heavy that we were in LVP's for over two hours, would you call that a flurry ???. No airport could have stayed open in that weather, the fact is the snow was falling quicker than it could be cleared, but why take notice of the facts ??? just throw a post on that is complete crap.

:ugh:

[Mouser]

Why do you post this tosh ?? Because I can.

[lexxity]

Very constructive posting there Mouser. :ugh:

Thank you to those of you who have taken the time to post why and what happened. Luckily I was off yesterday, thank heavens, but I live right under the flight path and wouldn't have wanted to be operating in that. The flurries were long and persistent, not seen snow that heavy for years.

[RHINO]

Manofman

would you care to elaborate on your comment 'Manchester was in LVP's for 2 hours'?

[Ian Brooks]

Taken from another site re DUS
I was on Delta 25 from DUS to ATL and it was canceled. The pilot said DUS does not have the equipment to clean off the runways or aircraft with this much snow. Now we cannot get our luggage because the say the equipment is frozen! What a mess.

LVP is low visibility procedures

So not only MAN

Ian B

[ManofMan]

Manofman

would you care to elaborate on your comment 'Manchester was in LVP's for 2 hours'?

The met viz was less than 1500 meters for 2 hours as per my Metar posting, during that time the RVRS were less than 1500 meters for the majority of the time.

I was merely pointing out to Mouser that his comment regarding Manchester shutting after a flurry was complete tosh, but i suspect he knew that before he posted, still any chance to have a dig at Manchester, factually based or not and he is there.

[RHINO]

Manofman

for the record I can assure you there were no LVPs at MAN yesterday.

[ManofMan]

for the record I can assure you there were no LVPs at MAN yesterday.

O.K. i take that on board, i assumed (incorrectly as you advise) that with RVR's of 750 meters we would have entered into LVP's.

Why out of interest did we not go into LVP's with the viz as it was ?

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

LVP's required when vis drops below 600m and cloud base is 200 feet or less, or when the airport deems that LVP's are necessary, or when the limits are approaching! So MAN didn't need LVP's yesterday, but they did need something to help them out of the hole, unfortunately the line to God was out of order!!

I was unfortunate to be working yesterday at early o'clock to do a "quick" Geneva, when the place ground to a halt:ugh:. It was a nightmare, the stands were very icy, so fuel trucks wouldn't approach, and the one's that did couldn't open the hatch in the ground to connect up due to the ice. Most aircraft had de-iced in preparation for departure :ok:, unfortunately it then snowed and the place closed, causing all those that had been de-iced to need doing again:uhoh:. Trying to co-ordinate this with ATC who did their level best to keep everyone informed as to when the runway would be open again was nigh on impossible, particularly with the frequency of the showers! I consider myself to be fortunate to have juggled the balls and not to have dropped one, as I got us away with 2hrs 20 mins delay:D.

Getting back mid/late afternoon was another shocker. London advised that MAN was closed and that we should slow down, that MAN was estimating to open at 15:00. This pushed back to 15:20, just as we joined the hold at Dayne:uhoh:. 15 mins later, and now with unhealthy looking fuel gauges we were still holding, with a distinct lack of info from ATC:\. After another 5 mins ATC kindly put us out of our misery and advised they'd report again in another 15 mins:{, straight to Leeds for us, Liverpool for the rest amongst us.

The taxi back over the Pennines was unbelievable, but we did eventually make it, and our day was over, my "quick" Geneva had taken us 15 hours:}:}:}.

What a day for my poor SFO who I was running a command assessment on:eek::eek:.

I'd say to those that keep on knocking the place from their homes without even having looked at the place to shut up and get a grip, MAN ATC did their best, MAN Airport did their best with the equipment that they have at their disposal, and I really don't think that many places would have done very much better, and I have spent almost 2 years working for a Swedish operator in the frozen north of Scandinavia!

[conti onepass]

just reported on radio, manchester getting gatwick diversions!!! more chaos, my brothers been delayed for six hours going to dalaman.

[Suzeman]

Thanks Musket and Stoneybridge - some light bedtime reading there.

Still sounds difficult out there today as it is still very icy everywhere.

Cheers
Suzeman

[Bagso]

CFMU at Eurocontrol have issued a notam suggesting Manchester closed to Divs until at least 1200 Tuesday...

Bit of a shame but various bits from the SE going to GLA BRI BHX and NCL:ugh:

Fill your boots boys and girls....

[MUFC_fan]

Is Manchester not accepting diverts because it has already filled it's boots or not?

[Trash_Hauler]

I consider myself to be fortunate to have juggled the balls and not to have dropped one, as I got us away with 2hrs 20 mins delay

Come on now JFP... how about a bit of credit where it is due... "you" did not get yourself away completely on your own. It was a team effort. Were "you" the one arranging your slots, loading your baggage, fuelling your airplane, arranging de-icing, checking in the passengers etc etc etc? I am just one of lowly guys on the other end of your radio at the handling agent ops, but the guys and gals of the HA's deserve a LOT of credit as we juggled many flaming balls all day long. Nobody in my office left short of 17 hours!

[Ian Brooks]

Snowing hard again

Ian B

[ManofMan]

Is Manchester not accepting diverts because it has already filled it's boots or not

No it was due to "adverse weather"....pi$$ poor showing by Manchester AGAIN...been bucketing down now for 30 minutes or so....only a matter of time before we close again.

[Ian Brooks]

Snowing even harder than it did on Sunday and has been for 1 hour now

Ian B

[lexxity]

Snow has been coming down steadily since just before 10am, it is still coming down! :eek:

[lexoncd]

The weather that affected manchester was known to be heading our way. Despite this the airport did a good job in convincing the public it only closed for 90 minutes meaning most punters weren't aware of the chaos and ongoing delays.

Two runways....what a joke when you can't even keep one open...

[Skipness One Echo]

Two runways....what a joke when you can't even keep one open...
I agree but bear in mind that the chaos ensued due to a lack of clear taxiways, stands and effective deicing procedures.

Still I bet the shops were still open....

[TheMaskedDispatcher]

I think that some of the focus needs to be aimed at the airlines themselves. Knowing that the infrastructure of the airport during winter is already 'less than skeleton crew' as most handling agents have laid off staff for the 'quiet' period, they still try to operate a full schedule of flights. Instead of 1 aircraft to deal with we may have 3 or 4, with the same number of people to deal with it. Couple that with the general sense of not knowing if or when other airports that you have no control over will open . .or have better weather and the reluctance of airlines to actually cancel flights and you have a recipe for a very challenging operation. 17+ hour shifts for people are not uncommon . .NO there are no extra staff . .NO there are no 'spare' staff .. .NO we cant just 'call some more people in' (nobody will pay call out and some places dont pay overtime either . .anyone want to do some voluntary/charity work in aviation? no didnt think so). Its a damn shame for the punters but its the same all over the UK and it could be worse . . could be a Train operating company. Those in the know might have noted that during icing conditions rear-steps are now verboten according to airfield ops? That was a new one on me the other night but suits me fine!! H+S has SOME uses it seems :E . . . and yes the shops were bustling!
*deck the walls with Advertising . .falalalala, lalalalar
'tis the time for MERCHANDISING, falalalala, lala la lar!*

T-M-Snowman

[parky747]

Is it still the plan that MAN wish to have T1 for Scheduled airlines, T2 charter and T3 loco? If so does this mean that BA will be shipped to T1 to anytime soon?

[groundbum]

My little family and I were supposed to be off to Malta Tuesday but it never happened, cancelled. One of only 3 MAN T3 flights cancelled that morning, so rather looking forward to claiming my 250 Euro compensation each since it wasn't weather related when 99% of flights do get away. I suspect Easyjet run things rather lean and mean and in times of chaos rather give up and sit it out than try and run a professional consumer organization. Also look forward to pointing this out to the CAA and Trading Standards and wonder whether Easyjet demonstrate the competency to retain a UK AOC, but that is all for after our much needed holiday!

Rebooked on the Thursday afternoon flight from MAN, anybody got any ideas whether the odds are better for this flight, weather and EZ ops willing? I know it's 24 hours away but I can't be doing with another drag to the airport etc etc only to find out at bag drop it's cancelled again...

G

[kestrel757]

Groundbum

If only things were that simple. Think your chances of getting 250 euros are zilch. It does not matter how many other aircraft got away from MAN. You will almost certainly find thar easyJet can show that the inbound aircraft was delayed due to weather elsewhere and / or crew were out of hours due weather. I don't work for them but your somewhat scathing comments about them really do not stack up with their proven operational performance.

[MancRy]

I have to agree......it really does sound like you are pi*ssed off and this is reflected on your post. But hey, who can blame you?

The fact is that Easyjet does operate a lean operation but as someone has mentioned before, operational performance in general is excellent. Also, MAN based aircraft, I guess, have a greater resilliance due to the programme per aircraft is never more than 4 sectors and with some long sectors, a lot of time can usually be made up. Also, the MAN based aircraft are very self sufficient in that they don't operate W patterns or interwork with any other route pair. Therefore, it would have to be exceptional circumstances (i.e weather) for the flight to be canx because loads are very high and no airline cancels flights willy nilly when they are full.

The old saying goes that aircraft on the ground cost the airline. Easyjet, even as a lean operation, do have aircraft on the ground across the network....especially in the quieter Winter months, but after the last few days it probably wouldn't matter if you had lots of aircraft on standby. It's just unfortunate......particularly at this time of year.

[groundagent]

Malta/EZ anyone?

My little family and I were supposed to be off to Malta Tuesday but it never happened, cancelled. One of only 3 MAN T3 flights cancelled that morning, so rather looking forward to claiming my 250 Euro compensation each since it wasn't weather related when 99% of flights do get away. I suspect Easyjet run things rather lean and mean and in times of chaos rather give up and sit it out than try and run a professional consumer organization. Also look forward to pointing this out to the CAA and Trading Standards and wonder whether Easyjet demonstrate the competency to retain a UK AOC, but that is all for after our much needed holiday!

Rebooked on the Thursday afternoon flight from MAN, anybody got any ideas whether the odds are better for this flight, weather and EZ ops willing? I know it's 24 hours away but I can't be doing with another drag to the airport etc etc only to find out at bag drop it's cancelled again...



you obviously have no idea on aviation and just want to rant...:=

I don't work for easy either, but the ops team will do everything they can in order to get flights away and are one of the most efficient at managing disruption. In the past they have tried too hard to fly everything and this has caused more problems with operational rolling delays which frustrate SLF even more.:ugh:

Even experinced staff entering easyOps have an eye opener on days of major disruption.:}

[smudgethecat]

I suspect groundbum the CAA and trading standards will take you as seriously as most on here take you,...muppet

[TartinTon]

Just noticed new Manchester - Antalya Tues/Fri from May for Monarch on their website. Also showing BHX and LTN to Dalaman and LTN to Bodrum. :ok::ok::ok:

[simonchowder]

Is Manchester Monarchs largest base? i was up there last week and all the T1 stands seemed to be filled with their aircraft.

[groundbum]

re Manchester/Malta Easyjet cancellations, I'm not frustrated at the men and women on the ground as I suspect you are all pulling long hours in some nasty outdoor conditions.

I'm surprised at some of the abuse directed at me for having the temerity to be frustrated, as I would have expected coalface workers to also be frustrated that managers of their companies are cutting jobs and equipment and resources generally so that when things go wrong they go wrong spectacularly. Look at Eurotunnel, how long does it take to hook a diesel train to a broken electric train and pull it out the tunnel? Allegedly Eurotunnel has two rescue engines on standby and yet of 5 trains stuck some were stuck for 19 hours! Perhaps Easyjet run that as well?

My angst is that other airlines managed to keep things going, Easyjet did not. I believe the regulators that allow Easyjet to operate in the UK, the CAA and Trading Standards, could do with looking at this disruption and see whether their operation is worthy of their certificates. There is such a thing as hoodwinking the consumer and not delivering on what has been purchased.

If you bought TVs that worked 90% of the time you'd be upset, if roofer's only fixed leaks 90% of the time, if schools only opened 90% of the time you'd be upset and say not good enough.

And I understand the weather disruption, but also watched 96% of the other T3 flights getting away. So why not Easyjet? What have they cut back/scrimped on that so wrecked their operation, and my family's holiday? I hope they redeem themselves tomorrow when our holiday hopefully starts!

G

[simonchowder]

The next flight back to planet zog is departing soon groundbum, be on it.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

simonchowder
I think you will find it is LGW for Monarch.:ok:

[smudgethecat]

Wont be T1 for much longer, ive heard because there such a favorite with the airport there being moved over to the posh half next year

[The96er]

Would seem for 2 days running now, MAN has refused permission for BA widebodies to divert from LHR. Apparently, the stands are not safe !!! No doubt the person who decide to get rid off all the staff during the year who would at this time be doing airport de-icing duties ( 'cos we don't get much snow here' !! ) :rolleyes: is in line for a nice Christmas bonus.

[Mouser]

The next flight back to planet zog is departing soon groundbum, be on it. What a horrible reply.

[conti onepass]

so how many aircraft at gatwick compared to manchester, seeing manchester seem to have more schedule flights plus many charters.

[TartinTon]

If you're measuring the total airline then LGW probably has it due to most of the larger capacity a/c charter flights being at LGW. In Scheduled terms MAN wins by a mile.

[MancRy]

Groundbum, I work for Easyjet but I don't own them and therefore will not defend them to the absolute ilt. But, without sounding patronising, you really do have to have some airline experience. Whilst I have been known to get frustrated with certain departments on occasion, during these difficult times....Easyjet's operational departments are worth their weight in gold. The main issue is that many aircraft in this Weather have ended up diverting which places a strain on crew hours. They end up having to nightstop in some instances or return back to base very late which has a knock on effect if those crew members are flying the next day....i.e they need their rest period. This is fine because we have crew on standby but when you have lots of aircraft in a similar situation, there simply aren't enough standby crew and neither can you expect their to be when on the other 362 days of the year there is ample standby cover. Add that to the problem of crew members unable to travel in to work and the usual sickness and it's a huge problem.

Over the bed weather, easy op's were attempting to move crew the length and breadth of the Country in order to get things back on track. Also, just to put things into perspective......in 2 years of being with Easy I have only experienced one flight cancellation and that was on Sunday.

It is awful that many people have had their travel plans disrupted this time of year........not just Easyjet and MAN passengers but passengers right across Europe and various airlines. Frustrating? Most definitely for yourslef and I hope you eventually enjoy your holiday....but to pass comment so elaborately on here about something you know very little about is not the way forward.

[marble bar]

Why is it that people think that they can pay £1 for a ticket and the airline can afford to have spare aircraft and crews standing by for any kind of disruption. You get what you pay for. The customer is always right and he wanted the low cost airlines which means there is no contingency when things go pear shaped.

[smudgethecat]

As said previously the blokes on another planet, bloody clueless about how the industry has to operate

[MUFC_fan]

Does anyone know which airlines Flight Support serves at Manchester? If so, which.

Thanks.

[javelin]

As someone who actually flies for an airline at MAN, the last week has been a very poor show.

I got back from Calgary a week ago, they were operating in conditions from +2 to - 28c with snow, blowing snow etc so we are not saying they are having a completely different carry on.

However, they are equipped and capable, the runway was clear, the blowers were whizzing around all the time, the ramps were relatively clear and safe to work on.

Now contrast to MAN.

I have just operated out of MAN on Monday, returned yesterday.

They can't even be bothered to operate two runways when it would resolve most of the delays. They can't clear the exits, they can't clear the taxiways, or the ramps and the gates are lethal to walk on.

I also appreciate that the workers at MAN are doing their best - it just looks like the management is woefully inadequate in coping with what is not severe conditions. There is a distinct lack of decision and leadership which cascades down the ranks which results in the chaos we have experienced over the last week.

[Ian Brooks]

The difference is Calgary gets more snow and expects in one winter than Manchester
does in a couple of decades and buys the expensive equipement which it knows will be used many times each winter where as I have lived in Manchester for 30 years and
don`t think I can remember having so much snow at one time

Ian B

[smudgethecat]

Yep real shocker ian ,manchester which lies at a latidude northerly of labrador canada gets a couple of inches of snow in mid december.. who could have guessed it

[Trash_Hauler]

Flight Support handles Flybe, Danube Wings, VLM / Citijet, does underwing on Viking, Saga and Turkuaz and also does a lot of ad-hoc work.

[ben_keghead]

Its not that they cant be bothered to operate 2 runways....they are only allowed to operate 2 RWYs at certain times due to a legally binding contract....

[Suzeman]

Its not that they cant be bothered to operate 2 runways....they are only allowed to operate 2 RWYs at certain times due to a legally binding contract....

Mr Keghead, that is rubbish. As I posted earlier in this thread, they CAN use 05R/23L in emergencies if necessary as was witnessed a week or so ago when a FlyBE Dash 8 landed on 05L and proceeded to do an emergency evacuation. After an inspection 05R was pressed into service.

In previous years 05R/23L has not been used over the holiday period due to reduced demand and to appease the locals. I think this is also happening this year, so I guess they didn't bother to clear it on Saturday pm when the snow started and in any case the new runway is not used on Sunday am. Of course on Sunday there were frequent snow showers and it took all their time to keep the one runway open, albeit with several closures. And once you have left the other runway untreated with this amount of snow and sub zero temperatures, only rising temperatures will clear it without a massive effort.

I suspect those staff who are left at MAN in Ops are genereally not experienced in this extreme (for Manchester) weather and this my have contributed to the situation. Couple this with the fact that jobs seem to be reviewed every few months and you can imagine that the enthusiam to get stuck could be less than it was a few years ago where people volunteered to come in and help out in this type of situation. In addition there may be an attitude on high that the extra expense of vehicles, materials and staff to shift snow is not worth it for the very limited times it happens at MAN - and I'm sure that this applies at many other airports where the beancounters hold sway.

However, having lived in the area for many years, this is one of the worst snowfalls in recent years, so I suspect that even if there had been more resources, there would still have been problems. After 6 days there is still 15-20 cm of snow in the area and it's freezing again tonight.

Have a Happy Christmas

Suzeman

[ACCMan]

I have just operated out of MAN on Monday, returned yesterday.

They can't even be bothered to operate two runways when it would resolve most of the delays. They can't clear the exits, they can't clear the taxiways, or the ramps and the gates are lethal to walk on.


Why would you bother to de-snow/de-ice a runway which is only open eight hours a day and not needed at the moment anyway. Better the staff and equipment are used to clear taxiways and stands following clearance of the main runway. Having a servicable second runway would not have made a blind difference to departure delays.

Plenty of aircraft de-icing delays mind, but then that's the airlines' responsibility.

Think about it Javelin.

[nigel.hayes007]

Manchester may be on a latitude north of calgary its just that canada etc doesnt have the gulfstream to warm them up,hence calgary expect to use their snow equipment for around four months a year so its well worth getting the best tackle ,airports in the U.K. expect around two days of snow per year so the bean counters dont allow a large expenditure,it costs less to close a couple of days than spend thousands on machines that do less work than some airport managers we all know.
Also we cannot use the old type cow p**s deicer any more as it harms the enviroment,the new stuff is about as good as orange squash but the health and safety say its less harmful to fluffy cuddly things.
All this will be irrelevant soon because as honest Gordon an his chums say as they tax the a**e of us and try to ruin our industry global warming is melting everything.

[MUFC_fan]

Surely the snow never classed as an emergency.

I can understand a flight needing to divert using an out of hour approach but how could they justify tens of flights because they need to clean snow off of the other runway?

I'd be pissed if I lived under the flight path and they got away with that reason...

Merry Christmas to all!

[TheMaskedDispatcher]

'Would seem for 2 days running now, MAN has refused permission for BA widebodies to divert from LHR. Apparently, the stands are not safe' !!! - The96er

I'd heard that too. . seems they'd rather tell large airlines to keep their nasty Diverts away rather than face the embarrassment of having them stuck on stand (or on a taxiway, remember we cant take more than 2 A380s at the moment . . 3rd strike and its out!) for hours and then being too icy for anyone to deal with them (or have any busses, steps, equipment etc etc) for ages as they are 'extra'. How oft do we hear of diverts 'tell them they're an extra and they'll have to wait' . . .And how REASONABLE and UNDERSTANDING flight deck and Airline representation are when given this as a reason for being unable to provide the very basics of service to a disrupted flight!:eek:

More and more we hear of police being called to aircraft to protect the poor staff forced to deliver bad news re service times to either airlines or the travelling public (most often both!), might one say that the 'Ladies and Gentlemen' announcements should now read 'Louts and Thugs' as i'm told true Ladies and Gentlemen went out with the good old days of 60's aviation (they wore hats too i'm told)!

T-M-D

[javelin]

ACC

This is precisely when you need max capacity.

Now, we have reduced egress from the runway - AE or A1. Flow rates go down, separation increases, congestion starts.

This is a blatant poverty measure from MAN to save money.

A major international airport should easily cope with this snow, they have responsibility to their customers to provide adequate facilities in order that they may operate as normal a service as possible.

Our OTP was down to 16% this week, I flew a rotation on days off because the airport couldn't cope and a crew ran out of hours after the punters had been on board for 5 hours. Then there were no hotels so they stayed in the terminal overnight. They were not happy campers when we took them to GOI on Monday.

Additionally, the Cabin Crew who had planned on a 5 day stay over Christmas, brought friends and partners were now forced into a 1 night stay. Their Christmas was ruined, the passengers were hugely inconvenienced and all we could say was that the facilities at MAN were inadequate.........

They still blame us as the operator :sad:

[Momentary Lapse]

Well, I'd like to wish a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone at MAN, whether working hard to keep it open against the odds or sat in an ivory tower counting beans and cutting jobs.

[easyJet A321]

Does anyone know why most flights today have been/ are delayed usually by over an hour? My first thought was snow but thats all gone according to a friend so maybe ice still around?

Also there are two U2 LPL flights departing MAN today EZY7067 to NCE and EZY 7119. I'm guessing these aircraft were diverted away from LPL at somepoint?

[Ringwayman]

Two easyjet flights diverted in during the last hour due very thick fog at Liverpool (50 metres or thereabouts). MAN had fog this morning with consequential delays due to reduced movement rate.

[fimbles]

Not sure what the RVRs at LPL are but METAR is giving 50m in FZFG

Roll on Cat 3 in Jan!

[easyJet A321]

It seems that it was AMS - LPL and CDG - LPL diverted.

[Mr R Sole]

As predicted Zurich is now on sale for the summer with easyJet. 6 x week by the looks of things.

[Higher Archie]

Just to clarify. There is a restriction, a planning condition, on the use of 23L-05R at MAN. It shall not be used between the hours of 22.00 - 06:00. It can be used however in the case of emergencies, maintenance and emergency maintenance.

Just to add thoughts. In snow and ice, it makes sense to keep the snow fleet occupied on keeping one runway and the ramp available.

[conti onepass]

i think zurich has been on sale for a few weeks now.

[frequentflyer2]

Why is it that people think that they can pay £1 for a ticket and the airline can afford to have spare aircraft and crews standing by for any kind of disruption. You get what you pay for. The customer is always right and he wanted the low cost airlines which means there is no contingency when things go pear shaped.

In fairness I doubt groundbum paid as little as £1 for a ticket to Malta. I've just had a look at the easyJet website and a couple wishing to fly there from Manchester in six weeks time for a 10 day holiday will pay almost £300.
Mrs. FF and I flew MAN to BHD last night (Sunday). When we checked in it was obvious an easyJet flight had been cancelled as a large number of people were circulating in front of the airline's customer service desk. The flight in question had been travelling to Munich and the cancellation was obviously at short notice as some passengers already had boarding passes and shopping from the Terminal 3 Alpha Retail Unit which is after security. They had to retrieve their luggage with the MUC tags attached so they had definitely checked in.
From conversations overheard in the security queue I think Easy had managed to re-route at least some passengers on other airlines.
Meanwhile, an Easy flight to Tenerife was getting ready to depart more than four hours behind schedule.
When easyJet flights from Luton were cancelled during the bad weather last week a young woman travelling with her little daughter to BFS was initially told she could not travel until after New Year although they later found room for the delayed passengers the next day.

[Mr A Tis]

Why is it that people think that they can pay £1 for a ticket and the airline can afford to have spare aircraft and crews standing by for any kind of disruption. You get what you pay for. The customer is always right and he wanted the low cost airlines which means there is no contingency when things go pear shaped

Take no notice, either a wind up or a numpty comment. Nobody pays a £1 to fly Easy, I usually find EZY to be more expensive than most airlines out of MAN. I think they cancelled more flights over the last week than any other operator at MAN, I don't know why, they just did.

[marble bar]

It wasn't a numpty comment I am just continually amazed that people want to pay rock bottom prices but expect a full service airline. When things go wrong there isn't any slack in the system and flights get delayed or cancelled. The days of airlines keeping aircraft and crews on standby are long past.

[ben_keghead]

easyJet do keep crews on standby...there just isnt a limitless amount of people. When things go wrong, and aircrafts get stuck all over, the level of crewing gets fully stretched. Crews from all over being called out from anywhere to operate the flights

And sometimes, there simply arent enough people

[scrapy]

New Monarch services to Turkey

NEW Manchester to Antalya (Mediterranean Coast) – 2 flights per week
Manchester – Dalaman – increases from 5 flights per week to 8 flights per week
Manchester to Bodrum – increases from 1 flight per week to 2 flights per week

[Mouser]

Crews from all over being called out from anywhere to operate the flightsI don't think air crew get enough credit, this was my daughters day (yeasterday), bearing in mind she's Manchester based, picked up by taxi at o4.40 and driven to Newcastle picking up other crew on the way , does Newcastle to Palma and then returning home by taxi at 19.30 a long day. Then 11 hours today.

[bravoromeosierra]

Hello,

I wander if anyone in the know might be able to tell me if the SQ legs of the MAN-MUC/MUC-MAN flights will become available for booking, similarly to how Saudi allow bookings between MAN and Geneva?

Quite keen to be able to catch a ride on a 777. Cheers!

[MUFC_fan]

They will be available for booking soon via Singapore Airlines but if you wish to book right now you can pay a full IATA fare via one of the travel companies such as Expedia, Ebookers etc.

[Mister Geezer]

I know easyJet have attracted a bit of bad press on here but they have done their best considering the circumstances. As has already been pointed out there is only a finite number of standby crew and even that pool was probably getting depleted to some extent due to the long days and the extra duty hours that crew were accumulating. These extra hours then would limit what use some crew could be if they are running close to their limits for their duty hours etc.

To be fair to easyJet, they have positioned the odd aircraft up to Manchester over the past week or so from Stansted or Luton to try and ease the disruption.

The current staff shortage/industrial issues with ATC staff in the Canaries has produced some 'eye watering' slot delays as well and that has just compounded the disruption over the past week or so. Slot delays to and from the Canaries were in the worst case topping 5 hours last weekend for some flights. One of the easyJet TFS rotations night-stopped in TFS due to the crew running out of hours. I think there was a LPL-ACE rotation that was in the same boat as well due to horrendous slot delays. Very unfortunate timing when some of the passengers that were travelling, were perhaps rebooked from previous flights that were cancelled due to the snow.

Finally... no I do not work for them before anyone asks! ;)

[MUFC_fan]

Does anyone know any more information about this:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4016/4225871985_62eb73ff52_m.jpg

It suggests this is a code share flight. The only other airlines on the route are BMIBaby and Jet2 who are no way related to CSA - could they be returning? It also doesn't show what aircraft the flight will be flown with.

A little further digging finds this:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4067/4225858389_a73cefcdda_m.jpg

Boeing 737-400 (WW and LS use 733s). It isn't in AOG but obviously Amadeus has it on sale. It looks like a night stop - similar to their previous operation at MAN - do they plan to return?

Anybody know any more info?:\

[Cloud1]

Don't quote me on it but I believe Danube Wings have wet least a 737-400 from CSA and are operating code-shares out of Manchester. Maybe its one of their routes?

[ben_keghead]

Mister Geezer, couldnt have said it better myself, perfect representation of what has been going on over the past weeks

[TSR2]

To confirm that Danube Wings are to operate the route using a wet leased B734 from CSA.

[MUFC_fan]

Thanks.

Will it be for sale with Danube or just through CSA flight number?

[rutankrd]

Well i think thats an indication of return -Looks like a overnight stopper with a FULL CSA flight number -NOT codeshare range these are four figure numbers
OK3--- , OK4---, OK5--- for Sky team partners AirFrance/KLM/Alitalia/Delta/Korean and Aeroflot plus a few others mainly Russian regionals Finnair and Malev !

The code share would surely be a reference to Skyteam partner Aeroflot .

Note the new Aeroflot web site also shows the codeshare via Prague and it one of a very few codeshare destinations advertised within Europe by Aeroflot.

I think we need to await a confirmation from CSA in the coming weeks.

[TSR2]

According to the January edition of Airliner World:
'The Czech flag carrier is providing the airline (Danube Wings) with one of its own Boeing 737-400's under a wet lease agreement, the aircraft retaining its Czech Airlines titles and colours but operating under the Danube Wings name'

[rutankrd]

This is correct in so far as Danube Wings are using OK-WGY a CSA B734 and ex BA aircraft G-DOCI.

However its based in Bratislava in neighbouring Slovakia and operates services from their Kosice and Poprad Tatry to Dublin /Luton and Manchester.
Not to or between Prague.

The remaining Danube wings network normally sees their own ATRs i believe.

[Ian Brooks]

The aircraft is not in CSA colours and does have Danubewings titles

OK-WGY - Danube Wings Boeing 737-400 Aircraft - London - Luton Photo @ Airplane-Pictures.net (http://www.airplane-pictures.net/image71937.html)

Ian B

[MAN OPS]

CSA have confimred that they will return to MAN on 28th March

OK646 will arrive 20:00 and depart next day OK647 as 07:40

they have not confirmed if they will continue the flight though winter 2010/2011.

[MUFC_fan]

Thanks MAN OPS, is it not a 21:00 arrival though?

[Scottie Dog]

I suppose that depends whether you are looking at BST or Zulu??

ps - happy New Year to one and all.

[OliWW]

Does anyone know whether it will be a A319 or A320 operating EZY1959 (MAN-MAH) in May 2010? It only has a 40 min turn around in MAH, so I'm thinking A319?

[RoyHudd]

Does anyone care?

Truly an unusual if trivial question. Why on earth would you wish to know this fact, oliww? I am interested in your answer though, which may be much more fascinating than your original question. (I go to work and often don't check whether its a 320/321, or even occasionally a 330 until I arrive at the Crew Room, believe it or not. Before you ask, positioners around the UK can be any one of these types)

[OliWW]

I care, I wasn't aware of EZY operating MAH from MAN, only noticed tonight on the drop down list on their website, so thought I would ask to find out more. Thanks :rolleyes:

[Wellington Bomber]

MUFC FAN

Because they are a quality airline and one of the best around, compared to the s*** you normally travel on, with the golden harp on the tail

You pay for what you get

[ben_keghead]

The answer is, nobody know...

Probably an A320 but it hasnt been confirmed yet...

[UFGBOY]

Whilst it was a long day, she will be legally entitled to at least the time she spent on duty as rest before her 11 hour day

Provided she is not being asked to reduce rest, cannot understand what the point is?
There are many former XL/GSM cabin crew who would be grateful of that or any duty day ......

[GOAROUNDMAN]

Does anybody have an idea how this new Singapore Munich connection is going affect LH and Easyjet? Have LH allowed their Star partner to dump seats on the route to fight off of Easyjet? How will this affect the LH schedules?

[Mouser]

Whilst it was a long day, she will be legally entitled to at least the time she spent on duty as rest before her 11 hour day

Provided she is not being asked to reduce rest, cannot understand what the point is?
There are many former XL/GSM cabin crew who would be grateful of that or any duty day ...... Hang on mate, I know people have lost jobs, it wasn't a whinge just an observation.

[MUFC_fan]

Dear Mr Wellington Bomber,

I think most people would appreciate an educated answer so please, leave it to people who's opinion is actually worth some value and not based on a 'we hate ryanair' fad, something 60m+ people every year disagree on...

Does anybody have an idea how this new Singapore Munich connection is going affect LH and Easyjet? Have LH allowed their Star partner to dump seats on the route to fight off of Easyjet? How will this affect the LH schedules?

I don't think Lufthansa 'allow' Singapore on the route, they don't exactly make the rules. However, SQ haven't yet put seats on sale for the MAN-MUC through their website so maybe they have agreed with LH not to do so. LH have also passed over some capacity on the MUC-SIN leg by reducing their own frequency to twice weekly to complement the five times weekly SQ service.

[bravoromeosierra]

I don't think Lufthansa 'allow' Singapore on the route, they don't exactly make the rules. However, SQ haven't yet put seats on sale for the MAN-MUC through their website so maybe they have agreed with LH not to do so. LH have also passed over some capacity on the MUC-SIN leg by reducing their own frequency to twice weekly to complement the five times weekly SQ service.

However, the MUC-MAN leg is bookable on their website.. I guess we'll see soon enough.

[Ringwayman]

Not that sure that LH is chopping it's own MUC-SIN service as one travel website indicates that "In addition to the new SIA service they will still enjoy their existing five times weekly Lufthansa service".

[sam1993]

Just had a look at Viking's newest airline - Viking Hellas and their website states that they will begin scheduled flights from Athens to Manchester from February. Taking a random week in August shows daily flights with the exception of Saturday. Their fleet will consist of an MD83 and 2 A320's so expect one of these to operate the services! :ok:

[viscount702]

Looking at the timetable for Feb to April it looks as though the A/C is MAN based.

Leaves 1 3 5 then after arrival in ATH goes to Erbil or Baghdad or Sulaimanyiah depending on day before returning to MAN 2 4 6

[RoyHudd]

Original Viking spirit required for these flights, methinks.

[danielmellor]

Theyll Need some Good Marketing anyway :ok:

Good Luck To Them

Now If They where to launch a belfast-manchester service then :cool:

[Wellington Bomber]

MUFC

Dont come the high and mightie attitude with me my old nutmeg

60M people may be, but they are still crap.

Talk to all the crew that have been laid off with all various airlines, whilst cadets are flying brand new 737's with Harps on, just because they have paid a huge wedge of money. I am sure when the media get their act in order 60M will soon start to dwindle. Plus can you imagine if the UK govt say no more hand luggage due to idiots with bombs in their pants, and O Leary charges them for putting bags in the hold

I can just imagine the negative publicity

[Suzeman]

I understand the New Year got off to a good start at MAN with a runway closure just after midnight due to debris of Chinese Lanterns all over the airfield. :eek:

Another first for Manchester? :ok:

I can see that the CAA will be issuing registrations and CofAs for these next and banning their flights in controlled airspace....:}

Happy New Year

Suzeman

[CJ1234]

I do feel uncomfortable praising them, but you CANNOT call them crap Welly - it just doesn't work. Whilst most airlines are being flushed down the
s:mad:tpan, Ryan is doing unbelievably well. Yes, pilots pay massive amounts for the training, pay for their uniform, pay to breathe, get no pension, no benefits whatsoever other than a wage - but they've got a relatively well-paid job in an airline that ain't gonna go down the toilet any time soon.

I don't like praising MOL, but you can't go calling his airline crap, Wellybelly. It just doesn't make sense.

Suzeman - doesn't surprise me at all. It's been absolute CHAOS operating out of MAN these last few months.

1234

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

I'm very pleased that MAN's post-midnight closure doesn't surprise you at all. It would surprise me if MAN did NOT close to remove dozens of these burning incendiary devices from its operational areas. It is the only safe and responsible course of action, they are extremely hazardous to the safe operation of aircraft. Perhaps you would prefer to land amongst the flames?

SHED.

[Mr A Tis]

Well at least MAN is accepting diversions again, after picking up a couple of Dublin Divs this morning ( AA / DL)

[42psi]

The chinese lanterns resulted in a number of prudent runway inspections - not RWY Closures as such.

:E


A few of these were indeed found on the runway and the grass areas/links adjacent as well as various other spots around the airfield.


They were about three foot tall, made of light paper around a wire frame.


I guess enough to cause a problem in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Suzeman]

Thanks for the clarification 42psi. I believe there was at least one go around because of it.

With the construction and combustion of these things as they are, inspections of the operational areas was the only sensible option.

There were certainly a lot of them set off - or whatever the correct technical term is - to celebrate the start of the New Year last night. Never seen so many at once before. In all seriousness, I expect the CAA will address this somehow with advice at least.

Wonder if any other airports had the same problem?

Suzeman

[Bagso]

Given the degree of publicity re Airport Body Scanners could the Manchester airport marketing department gain considerable currency from this especially for US travellers?

As ever another missed opportunity...........?:ugh:

[42psi]

Thanks for the clarification 42psi. I believe there was at least one go around because of it.




That was the Monarch for stand 22 ... last arrival as such for the night and there'd been a bit of a gap since the last one landed.

With a fair few lanterns being seen heading our way as it started to make the approach a quick RWY inspection was decided on.


Nothing was actually found - although there were some picked up from the TWY just afterwards.



I've not heard of anyone else experiencing these although I guess there must be more of them in other parts of the world ??

[davemfi]

Can I just confirm that the runway in use last night (31st Dec into the 1st Jan), 05L, was not closed at any point. Very regular Inspections were carried out throughout the evening and early hours due to the high number of Chinese lanterns set off from the North of the airfield. With the wind at approx 330 @ 12 throughout the night, many lanterns from the City Centre and further South, tracked over, and in a lot of cases, landed on the airfield. As far as I'm aware the only aircraft affected was the I/B Monarch A321 around 00:10 which broke off his approach around 15 miles out to allow a runway inspection prior to arrival.


N.B. At least 30 Chinese lanterns were retrieved around the airfield.

[Bagso]

Another rant about Manchesters inability to sell itself !

Given all the news coverage about body Scanners and the fact that the ONLY UK exit point to the US to have these is Manchester, there should have been an opportunity for some great free marketing fully emphasising the potential safer aspects of using Manchester over London..........

Given all the free exposure that could have been exploited here and 7 days into the story, I am staggered that not one spokesman from Manchester has appeared !

Contrast this to Chris Yates independent aviation consultant !

OK I appreciate they may not be used all the time and not neccesarily on US flights but so what, good marketing doesn't tell the tuth all the time ....

.....get on the b****y TV !!!!!!!!! :ugh:

.......oh almost forgot, marketing are usually a bit bereft of creative thinking at Manchester anyway !

[gsky]

Bagso

"Contrast this to Chris Yates independent aviation consultant !

OK I appreciate they may not be used all the time and not neccesarily on US flights but so what, good marketing doesn't tell the tuth all the time ....

.....get on the b****y TV !!!!!!!!!"

RIGHT.
100%

esp as Mr Yates is a total "numpty" and spouts such rubbish ..
( I could go on.... as he is SO irritating!)

Happy New Year to all!

[MUFC_fan]

The media have been quite vocal about the screens and Manchester is getting a bit of credit for them.

The Telegraph described Manchester as "one of the safest airports in the world" due to it having the screens in operation. I doubt Israeli airports were taken into account when making that statement but it still looks good for the airport!

[Betablockeruk]

Manchester as "one of the safest airports in the world"

but perplexingly shoots itself in the foot many times.....

Arrived on VS76 New Years Day. Left MCO 77F, MAN struggling to hit 30F and where do we park? 219!!!! 400+ tired, cold and hacked off pax waiting for bus to T2 having just had a good view off empty stands with jetties straight into warmth. :ugh:

At least the bags were waiting for us. :hmm:

[Bagso]

The media have been quite vocal about the screens and Manchester is getting a bit of credit for them.

The Telegraph described Manchester as "one of the safest airports in the world" due to it having the screens in operation. I doubt Israeli airports were taken into account when making that statement but it still looks good for the airport!



Fair enough MUFC but Chris Yates has been on SKY BBC TV 5 Live etc etc for 6 days on the bounce now.......... you cannot buy that publicity , where on earth are the Manchester team ?

With US pax so nervous this was a great opportunity to capitalise !

OK it might not make much difference but cmon guys have a go at least !

Totally pisspoor !

[IB4138]

where on earth are the Manchester team ?

Simples.............on their Christmas and New Year holliers....."Do Not Disturb" sign up.

[mickyman]

It still remains 'quite amusing' reading the criticism and
rants of various posters on here.If only they could prize
away one of the top jobs in MAG and solve all the
problems before they come up or be available for a comment
- like a top-notch boss would be able to do.Providing
ofcourse that they were on call 24-7-365

MM

[Bagso]

"It still remains 'quite amusing' reading the criticism and
rants of various posters on here.If only they could prize
away one of the top jobs in MAG and solve all the
problems before they come up or be available for a comment
- like a top-notch boss would be able to do.Providing
ofcourse that they were on call 24-7-365"

You are talking utter bollocks Mickeyman. But to be honest I actually think I "could" do a better job !

With regards to this specific topic I was unaware that the airport closed down between Christmas and New Year... (although actually it nearly did )


Any decent businessman who was given a golden opportunity such as this would have grapsed it with both hands and should and would have been waving the flag ! My God at Last we have a USP that other airports do not yet possess !

If I wa swrong in this observation I would hold my hands up, BUT personally, if had been the Marketing Director I would have been ringing the BBC and Sky on Christmas Day if there was a chance of some good positive publicity....FOR A CHANGE !

Your comment is typical, an answer for everything but a solution to nothing
....a total lack of ambition !

[MUFC_fan]

You are talking utter bollocks Mickeyman. But to be honest I actually think I "could" do a better job !

With regards to this specific topic I was unaware that the airport closed down between Christmas and New Year... (although actually it nearly did )


Any decent businessman who was given a golden opportunity such as this would have grapsed it with both hands and should and would have been waving the flag ! My God at Last we have a USP that other airports do not yet possess !

If I wa swrong in this observation I would hold my hands up, BUT personally, if had been the Marketing Director I would have been ringing the BBC and Sky on Christmas Day if there was a chance of some good positive publicity....FOR A CHANGE !

Your comment is typical, an answer for everything but a solution to nothing
....a total lack of ambition !


I think I could run the England football team - seriously...:ugh:

How do you know that MAG's PR wasn't in contact with BBC, ITN, SKY etc? What do you want them to say? It was made quite clear by the press that MAN was the main airport with the scanners...

I just don't understand where you are coming from, can you please elaborate?:confused:

[Manchester Kurt]

Would those airlines, that you would presumably want MAN to be 'selling' themselves to, not already be fully aware of what security arrangements are at all major airports without the need to find out from Sky News?

[Bagso]

Gsky and IB4138...thank you for understanding I thought it was just me,
there is a GOD ! :ok:

MUFC ..you do dissappoint , many very valid contributions but on this occasion it might be worth entering into a civil partnership with Mickeyman who I am sure has both the time and patience to eleborate....

......sadly I don't !

[mickyman]

Bagso

I thought the scanners were hastily put away
after complaints from people about the 'nakedness'
of the screen picture......infringement of human rights
etc..etc...
So not much to crow about on that front - just let the
dutch take the lead.

Your services for MAG will not be required - I think.

MM

[Skipness One Echo]

MAN would piss a lot of people off if they went on telly claiming to have safer security than other UK airports. It would be asking for the next big story to be an unsafe incident at MAN. However trivial. Commercially dumb to go down that path and tempt fate.

[42psi]

Commercially dumb to go down that path and tempt fate.


Exactly :ok:


How many airlines do you see advertising/marketing themselves on the basis they are safer/the safest etc.

Do eurotunnel try and advertise that travelling with them avoids your ship sinking, do Virgin trains claim to be safer than transpennine ......


Look around, commercially it's an area that any company knows is best kept kept very clear of.

[MUFC_fan]

If the main headline on the front page of the Independant is anything to go by, it is extremely lucky that MAN DIDN'T go in front of the cameras parading their so-called world acclaimed security.

The Sunday Express main headline doesn't make for easy reading either...:eek:

[Bagso]

You have totally missed the point guys...

I am not suggesting that Manchester stand up and crows about being "thee safest airport in Britain", thats clearly nonsense .. if you re-read I suggested that it was "potentially safer" ....

I was simply trying to make the point that Manchester needs as much publicity as possible in the present climate !

....After all the PM has just indicated he wants them in every UK airport, BUT Manchester has them in situ ALREADY !!!!

....therefore it would have been an opportunity to promote the airport within the context of this story, as indeed most switched on companies do when a news story relates to them !

Sadly not one spokesperson from Manchester Airport has appeared despite the fact that they appear to have had this technology thrust upon them.

I suspect it was nothing to do with a "strategic" decison not to appear but has more to do with all the to notch management being on holiday.....

Chris Yates isnt appearing on every channel for the good of his health ....he is promoting his profile in order to add value for the cheargeable services he offers !

I do feel Manchester could have done the same.....

[MUFC_fan]

THIS is what UK security should be:

The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother - thestar.com (http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother)

Having used it in Israel, I can confirm it is quite a daunting experience but obviously very effective.

I used the domestic terminal and it took all over 15 minutes from leaving the coach to being sat in the departure area - fantastic.

[Suzeman]

There has been plenty of Press comment on the fact that MAN has got the scanners so why does it need someone from MA to front it up?

AFAIK these new scanners are on a trial from DFT to assess their suitability and it is being suggested in the press today - see MUFC_fan's post earlier - that they are not up to it.

So why should the MA press people get involved? And even if they wanted to comment - which I doubt for reasons explained by Skipness and 42psi -they may have been asked not to say anything by DFT

Suzeman

[Ringwayman]

if anyone is that desperate to see a MAN comment regarding the scanners, click here (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1187943_controversial_airport_scanners_to_be_made_compulsory )

[Bagso]

....if putting a press release out to the MEN is the best we have to offer we deserve all we get !

....eeh by gum, simply grand !:ugh:

[TSR2]

I remember arriving at Manchester late one winters evening about 19 to 22 years ago and as I came out of customs in Terminal 1 there was a guy with a camera on a tripod and a TV set by the side. Intrigued as to what he was doing I asked him and he replied 'trialling a body scanner'. He very obligingly gave me a demonstration on a following passenger. Very impressive, you could clearly see the shape of quite a number of items being carried in the passengers various pockets but no personal details.

I would expect significant improvements to have been made since then unless the project was shelved.

[mybrico]

The MUC route is so well served by LH and EZY, I cant think why anybody would bother with SQ, Are SQ interested in providing a feeder service for LH?

[roverman]

BetaBlockerUK,

With regard to your post #2368 I think you'll find that the reason for the VS flight parking on Stand 219 is a preference by the airline, and not at the airport's behest. There is a standing agreement between MA and the T2 airlines which assigns flights to remote stands on a planned, programmed basis, published weekly. This is the only way it can work in the morning peak and enables pax bussing resources to be at the ready. Airlines get a rebate for remote parking and so some airlines choose this for financial reasons.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

mybrico,

Singapore Airlines is interested in uplift between MAN and SIN, and between MUC and SIN (and onward to points beyond). Any traffic using the service between MAN and MUC is purely incidental and will be viewed as a bonus.

Regards. SHED.

[Betablockeruk]

Roverman

Thanks for the info regarding my jetlag induced whinge. Apologies to MA Plc for my misdirected complaint.

To be fair, once they got 400+ pax off the plane onto waiting buses then everything worked fine.

Cold Betablockeruk

[doublesix]

Runway 23R

Is 23R ILS now fully Cat 3 again or still going through the 300hr 'burn in' process.

[Going loco]

Shed - I thought the routing was MAN-MUC-SIN and SIN-MUC-MAN

If so, then by default the sectors between MAN / MUC will have capacity exactly identical to the booked level between SIN / MUC. i.e. if 100 passengers are booked SIN-MUC, then there has to be 100 seats available MUC - MAN, regardless of the SIN / MAN loadings. Unless SQ are expecting the SIN-MUC sectors to be a basket case, I'd expect there to be a sizeable amount of capacity on the aircraft between MAN / MUC which any rev. manager worth his or her salt wouldn't be dismissing. Even 100 seats at £100 = £10,000 opportunity per leg, which would more than cover the additional handling costs / fuel burn of the extra turnarounds in the programme. Double-drops are really hard to make work optimally from a revenue perspective, so if someone from SQ has told you they aren't putting much effort into this it doesn't say much for their long term interest in maintaining the routing as it is.

If the routing is SIN-MUC-MAN-SIN, then that's a different story. Not a great sell to the Germans on the outbound leg though!

[8028410q]

Doublesix

RW23R is still CAT 1 (and still has no DME paired with the ILS, so we have to use MCT DME)

8028410q

[david.craig]

6 Hour delay on CO22 departure to Newark. I noticed the aircraft was also 6 hours late on arrival. Is this all down to that security 'scare' at Newark the other day?
I believe a passenger walked through a no-entry door - away from security screening.

[doublesix]

Thanks for that 8028410q.

D6

[ManofMan]

Doublesix

RW23R is still CAT 1 (and still has no DME paired with the ILS, so we have to use MCT DME)

8028410q

Which begs the question, whilst the winds have been calm for the past few days why have they persisted in using 05L when they could have been getting some hours on 23R ??

Also notice that a notam has been issued stating we can not take any diversions again (except in emergency) and that 05R/23L will remain closed until the 11th as it is covered in Ice Ruts.

Time they invested in a second hairdryer with a longer flex imho.

[Ringwayman]

Why would you want MAN to spend money and use deicing fluid on a runway that at best is open around 8 hours a day only? Far better to use the resources on keeping 1 runway open and getting the taxiways done. As for the no diversion, perhaps the current TAF:

TAF AMD EGCC 041957Z 0419/0524 17006KT 9999 BKN020 TEMPO 0419/0509 2000 SN BKN004 PROB30 TEMPO 0503/0507 0900 +SN BKN002 BECMG 0509/0511 9999 NSW TEMPO 0509/0518 4000 -SHSN BKN010=

indicates that there is a bit of snow forecast and it would be nice to keep on top of all regular services before having extra aircraft to sort out.

[ManofMan]

As for the no diversion, perhaps the current TAF:

TAF AMD EGCC 041957Z 0419/0524 17006KT 9999 BKN020 TEMPO 0419/0509 2000 SN BKN004 PROB30 TEMPO 0503/0507 0900 +SN BKN002 BECMG 0509/0511 9999 NSW TEMPO 0509/0518 4000 -SHSN BKN010=

indicates that there is a bit of snow forecast and it would be nice to keep on top of all regular services before having extra aircraft to sort out.

Err no....pretty sure its down to the ice ruts and frozen slush from the 1 cm of snow that fell on Saturday. No matter how you dress it up, Manchesters showing during the recent cold spell was pi$$ poor to say the least.

[Ringwayman]

I'm sorry to see that you think MAN has a special ability to control the weather. It's pointless having the 2nd runway open for just a few movements so it may as well be closed. if the "bigger" and "better" airports such as AMS and FRA have had chaos with this weather, what gives you the right to say it's been a piss poor effort by MAN?

[groundbum]

here's a question then, bit sad but I'm interested. We took easyjet to malta (see past post on delays outbound) and both out and in the plane parked next to an airbridge, but we used steps. Why was that then? Seems a bit silly to build the things and not use them, and I cannot imagine the labour cost in moving an airbridge is that much more than driving steps up to an aircraft. I wasn't paying enough attention to see if both front and back doors had steps, as that would decrease delays in turnaround times of course...

G

[Ringwayman]

easyJet may have stipulated that they don't want to use airbridges as it would increase their handling charges.

[Suzeman]

AFAIK 05R/23L has not been used since before Christmas as it hasn't been required. It will be interesting to see if its non-availability this week causes delays if we get any normal weather... Snowing again now....:*

ManofMan said
Which begs the question, whilst the winds have been calm for the past few days why have they persisted in using 05L when they could have been getting some hours on 23R ??


And of course you have been monitoring the 2000 ft winds and visibility too to make an informed decision on which runway to use??......

Suzeman

[ManofMan]

what gives you the right to say it's been a piss poor effort by MAN?


Several things...dont get me wrong, when the snow fell a couple of weeks back i was on here backing Manchester to the hilt, because it was a heavy snowfall... but after Saturday when about 1 cm fell it became a joke, even yesterday morning caution was being advised to the heavies on vacating 05L, 24 hours after the last snowfall, how can anyone defend that ?? Then to see the tug that pushed back the Gulf Air this morning sliding about like Torvel & Dean...its a joke. Its now snowing very heavy indeed in Denton so if a decent amount falls then i will again be back on the other side defending Manchester, but im sorry..after 1 cm ???

[The96er]

So MAN has issued a near 24hr NOTAM banning all but emergency diverts 'Just incase' the weather is bad !!! . For an International airport, this really is a poor showing.

[ManofMan]

And of course you have been monitoring the 2000 ft winds and visibility too to make an informed decision on which runway to use??......


Nope...but then again thats why I asked the question, so presumably you are answering that by telling me that @ 2000ft the winds were the reason that they using 05R, so now i know, thanks for explaining to me.

[Ian Brooks]

Yes a tail wind on approach can cause a lot of problems

Ian B

[spannersatcx]

BetaBlockerUK,

With regard to your post #2368 I think you'll find that the reason for the VS flight parking on Stand 219 is a preference by the airline, and not at the airport's behest.

That's not quite accurate, last summer that was the deal, but as it causes so many problems the decision was reversed, it now only normally goes remote on a Sunday.

The reason it has been remote a lot recently is because of the TSA rules regarding 100% passenger searches, and they had to be segragated from other pax, the only way this could be done to get 400+ pax done was to use gate 300 and therefore park remote.

I believe something has now been sorted so normal stands can be used.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

...and lo, from the skies came snow, and all the armchair Joe Pattronis came online and declared they could have done it better.

Some of you really need to get a life or do a course in snow clearance and CAP168. :ugh:

[ManofMan]

and lo, from the skies came snow, and all the armchair Joe Pattronis came online and declared they could have done it better.

Some of you really need to get a life or do a course in snow clearance and CAP168.

Out of Interest who declared they could do it better???, I take it by your comments you are saying Manchester coped well with Saturdays light flurry that has resulted in a Notam being issued due to ice ruts some 60 hours later ??

Maybee you should tell that to the tug operator that struggled to push the Gulf Air all of 100 feet this morning...I dont think would agree.

[MAN777]

OK I may be talking absolute b**l*ks here but I would have thought that a few extra heavy movements would assist in blowing away settling snow, my theory is based on you only get snow settling on motorways when there is no traffic. :)

[RoyHudd]

0130 Closed again. Never seen anything so pathetic as this airport's "management" efforts. Lamentable. They deserve to go bust, but will doubtless keep pulling their big salaries and bonusses. And the movements number continues to plummet. Rubbish airport.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi Going Loco,

I can't fault your mathematics, but sadly my original posting remains correct. SIA is interested in selling long-haul tickets from Europe to Asia and beyond, and vice-versa. MUC-MAN-MUC is incidental to them. If customers buy tickets on the short-haul sectors that's fine - they will take the money - but there is no way they will invest heavily in promoting those sectors. As I stated, any additional revenue on those sectors is seen as a bonus. They are up against Lufthansa and EasyJet, both of which offer far superior timings. Note how few passengers used the GVA-MAN-GVA sectors on Saudia, and indeed many years ago on AMS and ZRH legs from MAN when SIA's services used to route via those cities. It's great for aircraft enthusiasts when these short sectors are made available for bookings, but the mainstream traveling public rarely show much interest. That's just the economic reality of the situation. Disappointing but true.

Regards, SHED.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Roy Hudd -

Have you got any idea of just how much (wet) snow is falling at Manchester Airport right now? If you feel able to advise the airport on how to defy the elements and perform miracles, please use this thread to share your wisdom. Is your definition of a "rubbish airport" one which has the misfortune to endure several hours of wet snow & blizzard conditions in Mid-Winter?

I generally try to avoid remarks which could appear personal, but in this case you have been gratuitous with your criticism of others. So I will say it: your 02:06 posting exposes your total ignorance of the measures required to cope with extreme winter weather conditions in an airport context. Safety - not expediency - is paramount. Your posting comes across as sour, ill-tempered and extremely silly.

Well done to the MAN snow-clearing teams working flat out to keep the airport functioning as well as it is during these days of severe weather conditions. Afew of us here recognize and appreciate your efforts.

SHED.

[MAN777]

Just popped outside (Cheadle near MAN) 3 inches so far and still falling heavy and its not wet here its that lovely crunchy stuff !! :)

My kids first day back at school tomorrow, looks like they will be staying at home, half their teachers live in the hills !

Must be soul destroying for the snow teams, to be finally getting on top of last weeks snow and ice, only for it to happen all over again.

I did hear that Olympic House staff have been volunteering to clear ice, so the old "can do" attitude does exist.

MAN has lost a couple of Monarchs so far. Just heard that Airfield SNOCLO till further notice, next update 06.00hrs.

Quiet night then for the residents of south Manchester :zzz:

[lbalad]

Just been on Sky News airport closed to 0900 due snow.

[gazza007]

Quiet night then for the residents of south Manchester http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sleep.gif
Not quite!!! Hum of the ploughs & blowers woke me up very early and have not stopped, obv doing their very best in the difficult conditions.
Still coming down here for at least another 2.5 hours from the met office radar plot

[ManofMan]

0130 Closed again. Never seen anything so pathetic as this airport's "management" efforts. Lamentable. They deserve to go bust, but will doubtless keep pulling their big salaries and bonusses. And the movements number continues to plummet. Rubbish airport.

Sorry Roy but have to jump to their defence here, since 2300 hours last night we have had 6 inches !!! of snow fall, take a ganders at the lat six hours metars...

EGCC 050720Z 17006KT 1000 SN OVC005 M01/M01 Q1003 7355////
EGCC 050650Z AUTO 16006KT 0600NDV SN SCT003/// BKN007/// M01/M01 Q1003 7355////
EGCC 050620Z AUTO 17006KT 0550NDV SN FEW004/// BKN007/// M01/M01 Q1004 7355////
EGCC 050550Z 18004KT 140V220 3900 -SN BKN012 M01/M01 Q1004 7355//// NOSIG
EGCC 050520Z 16006KT 9999 FEW018 SCT022 M01/M01 Q1004 7355//// BECMG 4000 -SN
EGCC 050450Z 16007KT 9999 FEW017 SCT023 M01/M01 Q1005 7355//// TEMPO 4000 -SN BKN010
EGCC 050420Z 16005KT 8000 SCT017 BKN025 M01/M01 Q1006 7355//// TEMPO 2500 SHSN
EGCC 050350Z 17007KT 2500 -SN SCT005 SCT008 M01/M01 Q1006 RESN 7355//// TEMPO SN BKN008
EGCC 050320Z AUTO 17006KT 0650NDV SN VV/// M01/M01 Q1007 7355////
EGCC 050250Z AUTO 18009KT 0550NDV SN BKN003/// SCT006/// M01/M01 Q1007 7355////
EGCC 050220Z AUTO 19007KT 1200NDV SN BKN003/// M01/M01 Q1008 7355////
EGCC 050150Z 18006KT 2000 +SN BKN005 M01/M01 Q1008 7355//// TEMPO 7000 NSW BKN010

Would like to see any airport that isnt a regular snow airport stay open in that.

[Stellas]

LPL, LBA also closed.

[oldart]

Man web site showing closed till 1200 hrs now.

[purplehelmet]

"im just going outside and maybe sometime"

[MAN777]

Anybody from MAG reading this ?

Is there a pool of volunteers available to help sort out the problems ? Tel no. ?

I am off for a couple of days, would like to assist rather than slag off as some seem to do.:rolleyes:

[purplehelmet]

man777
im just down the road from you on the heath, ive just walked over to morrisons and stockport road isnt to bad,not much traffic about though, but even so i cant see to many people getting to and from the airport today.

[Ringwayman]

TCX234L arrived at 1201. Bad weather forecast elsewhere...I can see a NOTAM being rescinded so that aircraft have places to land in the eventuality of having to divert!

[ericlday]

Q) EGTT/QFALT/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5321N00217W005
B) FROM: 10/01/04 15:04C) TO: 10/01/05 19:00

E) DUE ADVERSE WX DISTRUPTION, AD NOT AVBL FOR DIVERSION EXCEPT IN AN EMERGENCY

Effective until 19:00 today, but still available in an emergency

[Ringwayman]

If you look at the forecast for a lot of airport from the midlands southwards, most are going to get affected by the snow this afternoon through to tomorrow morning.

[Mister Geezer]

EGCC RWY05R/23L WILL BE CLOSED DUE TO ICE UNTIL MONDAY 11TH JANUARY. NOTAM A0060/10 REFERS.

So single runway ops till next week. You could make a comedy sketch from it all! :} Sadly this will mean delays for the rest of the week during the peak periods.

In the past hour there seems to be slots popping up to prevent movements between 2120 this evening (Tue) and 0400 tomorrow morning. Interesting....

[Ringwayman]

And you've got a problem with that? Makes sense to try to keep a single runway open so all resources are directed at that rather than splitting the resources.

[Ian Brooks]

Just out of interest how many acres of runway, taxiway, aprons and general road systems are there to be cleared and how many snow ploughs/brushes are there and what sort of coverage do you get for your de-icer.
When you stand on top of the multi storey car park and look down T2 it doesn`t look
that long UNTIL you see one tractors on the ramp then you think OMG
That ramp must be somewhere around a mile long and they would need to 20/30 runs so that makes it 20/30 miles of driving so at about 10 mph 3 hours driving
and that doesn`t allow for probably having to do 2 or 3 runs and then a de-icer do the same, AND THEN it snows again and you have to start all over
Brings it all into perspective how labour intensive it is

Ian B

[AndyH52]

Well if you consider a football pitch is roughly 100 x 50m, then clearing the runway alone is equivalent of clearing 30 football pitches of snow; taxiways probably add up to the equivalent of another 30. I can't even begin to think what it would mean in terms of apron space...something many critics of airport snow clearing ops seem oblivious to. It really can be a huge operation.

[MAN777]

Is the No Diversion NOTAM still in force ?

[ericlday]

Q) Egtt/qfalt/iv/nbo/a/000/999/5321n00217w005
B) From: 10/01/05 20:49c) To: 10/01/06 06:00

E) Ad Unable To Accept Inbound Acft Due To Snow Clearing Operation

[MAN777]

So let me get this straight

They are closing the airport totally to arrivals between 20.49 and 06.00 hrs for snow clearance ? Is this to all arrivals ? If so its a strange thing to do when the SE of England is about to get dumped on.

It reminds me of closing the curtains and turning off the lights at xmas when the carol singers call. Hopefully they will go away :)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

can you send some decent diversions to EMA, not a lot of snow here and should be able to park you somewhere!:\

[purplehelmet]

there has been at least four arrivals since 20.49 and at least eight due before midnight, its not snowed for a few hours so that should give em half a chance of clearing some of it.

[pwalhx]

Yes lets rush things and get a few diversions, or close and get the pace cleared properly so we can run our own operations, sounds pretty sensible to me

[Suzeman]

Q) Egtt/qfalt/iv/nbo/a/000/999/5321n00217w005
B) From: 10/01/05 20:49c) To: 10/01/06 06:00

E) Ad Unable To Accept Inbound Acft Due To Snow Clearing Operation

Not sure how this equates with the fact that the airport still seems to be moving its own flights in and out. There also seems to be some conflicting info on the CFMU site which suggests that MAN is still shut from this morning unless I'm reading it wrong.

It would be a very bold move to shut and get the clearance job done properly overnight if that is what is planned, presumably with lots of extra resources and equipment planned to come in. Forget about inbound diversions, but there are a lot of MAN's own delayed inbounds due in later. An interesting business decision.

Suzeman

[ericlday]

Q) Egtt/qfuau/iv/nbo/a/000/999/5321n00217w005
B) From: 10/01/05 22:00c) To: 10/01/06 05:00

E) No Acft Fuel Avbl Due Staff Shortages

[MAN777]

Minimum staffing at nights on the fuel is quite normal, I suppose if the night man is stuck in the hills or sick (just a guess) then its quite feasible and not really a surprise.

Welcome to the modern world of economics:rolleyes:

Millions of pounds of Aircraft sat around while Joe Bloggs has a head cold !!

You couldnt make it up.!

[purplehelmet]

ericlday.
can i ask where you are getting this info from pls.
ph

[MAN777]

pasted from a spotters forum

Heard from a friend of a friend, that the no divs rule is due to a snow clearing operation to try and clear as many stands as possible overnight, at present they dont have any spare stands, what they do have is to keep our own flights running. So it is a very sensible decision really. This No div rule is only up to 4am when they then cap the arrival rate.

[RoyHudd]

Again, 8 hours waiting, no possibility to anti-ice/de-ice and fuel a/c, no way out despite serviceable r/w and some taxiways. Nada. 36 hours and counting. Crew ready to go. Big expense to airline. Long-term sequelae.

Passengers from a company flight needing police intervention after 12 hours (and continuing) delay, but in the interests of those sensitive souls who hate criticism of others.........

Manchester Airport has planned so well and is in no way responsible for the chaos unfolding within its precincts.

(This is not critical of those folk working hard and failing to get things moving...they are not the decision makers)

[mrmagooo]

Well said Roy. Its the decision makers that have made the mistakes in lack of preperation. Using the excuse of it doesnt happen that often to warrant a massive outlay on equipment, didnt this happen in Feb last year? So in the last year approx 2 months of flights have been effected by adverse weather due to the runway being covered in snow.....

Apparently in T2 yesterday the baggage handlers were mucking in and clearing stands which is very commendable and shows the good attitude of the people outside the Ivory towers of Man. Only thing is there was nobody removing bags from belts causing massive hold ups back inside the terminal.

This is not a go at anyone who works at Man out on the ground!

[ericlday]

Info obtained from NATS

[purplehelmet]

thanks eric.:ok:

[smudgethecat]

Even more amazing is they have actually managed i heard to wrinkle some of the members of the trumpton fire brigade out of their nice cosy fire station and they were also mucking in, must have been the first time for most of them that they were actually doing something usefull:ooh:

[MAN777]

Actually incorrect, the guys have been helping since last week, I have seen them with brushes and shovels clearing paths.

Using Fire and rescue staff can only be done sparingly as it can have an effect on the fire category of the airport.

[mrmagooo]

"Using Fire and rescue staff can only be done sparingly as it can have an effect on the fire category of the airport."

Does the category of the airport really matter if it is shut??? (I know it is open at the moment)

[Tulsablue]

Sorry but the firemen can sit there all day & night if they want to, just as long as they are on the job when they are needed!!!:ugh:
They have a very specialised job and the drill and practice they do DOES pay dividends when incidents happen.:=
Perhaps you think that the pilots are just playing with a fancy ps3 when they are in a simulator?:rolleyes:

[al446]

Well said Tulsablue. Smudgethecat seems to have the same idea as managers do that if someone does not actually appear to be doing something, anything, s/he is a skiver. Yet when the fan turns brown and a real emergency occurs it is the performance of the emergency services that comes under scrutiny and reasons for delay are examined. The Madrid tragedy of 2008 comes to mind. I was astounded at the speed with which the emergency services responded, considering the crash was outside the fence and in difficult terrain.
Perhaps Smudge would like to share with us the extent to which he has trained, or is prepared to, to brave his sorry ass in danger conditions. Given the choice between him/her and his/her ilk and the "trumpton fire brigade" I know which I would choose if in the sh1t.

A quiz for you Smudge -

1) How many seconds does it take to get an entire fire crew into a fire truck and ready to respond?

2) How many lives could be saved in each of those seconds?

[smudgethecat]

Problem is trumpton are only there to satisfy the CAA , there a bunch of well meaning amatuers playing at being firefighters, ive seen them in action a few times and its like something from dads army TBH, luckily the only time it could have got serious the pros in the form of the Greater Manchester fire brigade arrived smartish and quickly took control of the situation

[ManofMan]

Hi,

Anyone in the know wish to confirm/deny that the current mess at EGCC has snowballed (parden the pun) from the airport using cheaper de-iceing fluid prior to christmas that simply froze and has left lots of the remote stands un-usable as a direct result of them trying this ??

[The96er]

I know BA have been begging all day for MAN to take diversions from LHR/LGW - in other words, 'here's a big bag of cash for you' - only for the airport to refuse on all occasions !!

[al446]

Problem is trumpton are only there to satisfy the CAA , there a bunch of well meaning amatuers playing at being firefighters, ive seen them in action a few times and its like something from dads army TBH, luckily the only time it could have got serious the pros in the form of the Greater Manchester fire brigade arrived smartish and quickly took control of the situation

And your qualification to present this well argued assessment is? You trained with which fire brigade? Your position at the airport is? Background in aviation?

By the way there = they're. Sorry to be so pedantic.

[Tower1]

96ER
could be the airport taking revenge.
tower 1

[TheMaskedDispatcher]

I believe someone has just discovered the solution to the 'no diverts' rule . . declare a PAN.

Hope no-one thinks they're getting off here, there isnt a hotel room to be had between here and Carlisle.

T-M-Deicer

[edmond64]

Problem is trumpton are only there to satisfy the CAA , there a bunch of well meaning amatuers playing at being firefighters, ive seen them in action a few times and its like something from dads army TBH, luckily the only time it could have got serious the pros in the form of the Greater Manchester fire brigade arrived smartish and quickly took control of the situation

Wow thats a bit of a scathing statement isn't it? I've been a firefighter for 28 years (both airport and local authority). Unfortunatly to the untrained eye operations by any fire service can be a bit baffling ,this is especially so during training exercises. I can assure you that all firefighters are well trained and fully professional (whether it be airport or local authority). If they were not i assure you that it would'nt just be the snow that would close the airport. So I suggest that you keep your unqualified and may I say slanderous opinion to yourself.
And before you ask no I dont work for Manchester Airport Fire service!!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Just a quick question please.
There was a punter on Sky news bemoaning the aircraft and the fact that 5 AMERICAN aircraft arrived, turned round and went. Was this true?.
If so do they have slightly different rules?

Roy H

If you work for an airline tell me why dont they have their own de icing rigs, staff etc so they don't have to rely on the handling agents?. Why - cost and chances of it happening - couple of times a year.

I work for an airline, we have our own handling staff, own de icing equipment, (that look like fire engines not cherry pickers) so we have more control over our destiny. Look inside as well as outside :\

[TheMaskedDispatcher]

'One rule for one, one rule for another'? . .in aviation?!!! . .SURELY not!! :E
Airport 'prioritises' one airline over another in 'crisis times' (as i'm told we're in). Yesterday it was 2 Middle Eastern carriers that were the chosen ones . .perhaps today our American cousins came out of the hat 1st?

T-M-D

[TURIN]

perhaps today our American cousins came out of the hat 1st?


US734 was waiting nearly an hour (with engines running) for a stand to be cleared of ice/snow. Eventually used an adjacent stand that was vacated by SQ.

Go figure. :hmm:

[simonchowder]

To be fair smudge no ones claiming the airport fire brigade are as professional or as well trained as the big boys who are doing it for real every day 27/7, the airport guys are there to give first aid if you like until the pros arrive

[ManofMan]

Just wondering...is Manchesters weather equipment playing up....currently showing -12oC...yet 30 miles down the road at EGGP its -2oC, also Doncaster is -2oC...is 10oC in 30 miles possible .???

[al446]

I think you may be wrong there, edmond64 could clarify, but while a/p fire service may be there to deal with initial problem, and are equipped to do so, it in no way means they are any less professional. As far as I am aware their job is to contain fire and deal with immediate threat threat to life until other units arrive, that is not a lesser skill but a different one. They should be considered pros along with their non-airport colleagues. Remember, these are the guys who will enter the burning a/c if need be and assist evac. Would you or Smudge do that?

Now perhaps Smudge would like to ponder that while he gets back to his de-icing, baggage handling, floor sweeping, whatever. I make that assumption as they are hardly intelectually challenging roles.

[javelin]

We queried the temperature on final, -11c quoted.

On rollout, we showed -9c, so not too bad.

Got to my car and it was -7c, dropped to -8c around the Trafford Centre, rose dramatically by the poo farm, then dropped again :sad:

-4c over the tops and -6c in 'Arrergate.

G & T cool though :ok:

[MARK9263]

-16 in Styal, which is right on top of the airport.I really dont think the Airport and surrounding areas have ever seen temperatures so low.

As for the 'not accepting divs' scenario ? Well done MAPLC another spectacular own goal, they obviously dont need the money........!

[MAN777]

I dont think diverts make much money, all that is in it for the airport authority is the commission on the handling, fuel uplift and the departure / landing fee. The PAX if offloaded will be whisked straight through the terminal and wont spend any money. I would suggest deicing vacant stands properly to accommodate them would burn up that income.

So in these conditions its probably more cost effective to turn the diverts away. Remember the fiasco with the KLM MD11 a couple of weeks back ? multiply that by say 10 diverts and you have a god almighty mess that the Airport PR people would prefer to avoid. So in my opinion probably more trouble than they are worth.

[one post only!]

Wow, I thought it felt cold this morning!!!! Its not often you have to apply temp corrections to your minima/etc coming back into the UK!! :eek:

[ETOPS]

I really dont think the Airport and surrounding areas have ever seen temperatures so low.



Mark - I remember Jan 1981 when we got -24c at Middlewich - the antifreeze in my cars radiator froze!!

[edmond64]

I think you may be wrong there, edmond64 could clarify, but while a/p fire service may be there to deal with initial problem, and are equipped to do so, it in no way means they are any less professional. As far as I am aware their job is to contain fire and deal with immediate threat threat to life until other units arrive, that is not a lesser skill but a different one. They should be considered pros along with their non-airport colleagues. Remember, these are the guys who will enter the burning a/c if need be and assist evac. Would you or Smudge do that?

You are certainly on the right lines. The airport fire service are trained to the same basic standard as the local authority(eg. Fire behaviour, breathing apparatus, search techiques etc... the list is endless)at this point they take slightly different paths. The A/P firemen specalise in a/c fires where as the LAFB would concentrate on structural and RTC'S etc..If the unthinkable did happen the a/p fire service are the main players and will control fire fighting op's as they are the specalists and have the right equipment, the LAFB on the other hand would support the airport fire service by supplying water and man power to were it was needed.
Also there is an overlap, a secondary role for the AP fire service is to provide cover for the whole estate(terminal, hangars etc..) For small incidents they will attend and then hand it over to the LAFB as their main priority is the airfield. So dont knock them, they dont recieve the same amount of calls as the LAFB (WHICH IS A GOOD THING) but one day you may thank them!!!

[flyinthesky]

Having had the services of the MAN Airport Fire Team quite recently for a situation that I will not elucidate on further, I am appalled at the comments made by some posters on here.
I know not if they are commercial pilots, if they are then they should be ashamed. Because the one day they put out the call, they will expect MANFIRE to be there, primed and ready. They will expect them to pull them out of the poo where possible and then meet at the Romper for a celebratory tipple.

If the posters are spotters and simmers, could you please talk about things that you may know about, like numbers of rivets and tail registrations!

No, the Fire Service at the airport are NOT the 'normal' fire service, nor are they meant to be. They are however all firepersons with experience from 'normal' fire services. And they train for a specific set of scenarios that hopefully will not be needed.

Frankly, I am ashamed that anybody linked to the airport has started a debate like this. Please go back to discussing how many new routes to Entebbe might/might not be starting!
:=

[Ian Brooks]

Well said sir, a guy that I used to work with was one of the firemen involved in the rescue of pax from the Airtours B737 a few years back and as far as I am concerned is/was a hero and went far further than the call of duty.

Ian

[ManofMan]

If the posters are spotters and simmers, could you please talk about things that you may know about, like numbers of rivets and tail registrations!

Chimp.

[flyinthesky]

ManofMan

If you wish to get personal, then by all means carry on old chap. Sticks and stones and all that.

Sorry if you don't like my description but unfortunately there are plenty of people on here that fit that description exactly.

Grow up!

Signed - A happy safe chimp :mad:

[ManofMan]

If you wish to get personal, then by all means carry on old chap. Sticks and stones and all that.

Sorry if you don't like my description but unfortunately there are plenty of people on here that fit that description exactly.

Grow up!

Signed - A happy safe chimp

Sorry old bean but I think you actually started the personal bit taking a swipe as you did, of course you are going to back up the Fire team, as you said they got you out of a sticky one. That however does not mean that everyone should share your enthusiasm, thats why we have freedom of speech in blighty, and it certainly does not give you the right to come on here and take a swipe a "spotters and simmers".

[simonchowder]

Quite right, i know the majority of spotters/simmers are odd balls but were British for gods sake and every British chap has the right to collect aircraft/locomotive reg numbers or play at being a pilot, or a train driver for that matter if he so wishes .

[CJ1234]

Though operating from MAN has been a nightmare in my opinion for the last few months, I'm pretty sure it's absurd to liken it's fire service to "Dad's Army". As a newbie F/O on a fairly reliable aircraft I have not yet experienced a real engine fire (or burning of any part of the a/c for that matter), but I would be EXTREMELY shocked if the fire service of a large, busy international airport such as MAN couldn't be trusted to do their job properly. I suspect (though I don't agree with his way of putting it) that flyinthesky is somewhat correct - in that such writings are conjecture.

Please someone tell me I'm right - otherwise my job just got a whole lot scarier!

1234

[flyinthesky]

I really don't mind if people think I was having a go at a particular section of society, but the problem with freedom of speech is that conjecture creeps in and people with a little knowledge start to make big statements.

I am entirely happy for people to count rivets/ collect tail nos/ belly button gaze, however those same people should be very careful making wide sweeping ill-informed assertions about something they probably don't know that much about. Just because the fire service aren't seen an awful lot isn't exactly a bad thing. Personally, my pax don't see me handling an engine fire/ shutdown a whole lot either (thankfully). But it DOESN'T mean that I can't if I had to. And sitting in an office/ viewing park or wherever will never qualify you to judge. But it doesn't stop me waving at you as I go by either!

CJ1234 - rest easy, The guys are swift, thorough and know exactly what they are doing. They are also one of the friendliest bunch of people on the field.

I think the thread can return to the normal airfield bashing now :confused: Sometimes, the commercial plane drivers just get a little bit fed up with assumptions being made:ok:

[opnot]

why are there so many moaners about snow clearance in this part of the world. Gatwick has been closed on and off for the last two days ,go on their airfield forum site not one complaint, even though some of their problems are similer to ours, lack of stands and anti/deicing fluid.
Where I sit in my warm tower I have seen a lot of people working their socks of in the coldest of weather -12 this morning at 9.00am to keep the airfield going. These are freak weather conditions so all I can say to you moaners out there is give it a rest you are becoming pretty boring.

I love doing gmc

[Ivor Fynn]

smudgethecat and manofman you are a pair of clowns!

flyinthesky - well said:ok:

[al446]

Could everybody just calm down please. In a way I kicked this whole thing when Smudgethecat made a comment about the "Trumpton fire brigade" finally being seen to be doing something when involved in snow clearing and I responded as I thought he was an absolute tw@t with no idea as to what a/p firemen did. He compounded it by a further post. I was annoyed that he/she posted with all appearance of an a/p employee. I still think he/she is a tw@t. See rest of thread.

I am not a pilot, simply ex-RAF aircraft tech so know what these guys do, sort of. I have also been known to twiddle a joystick now and again. What I am trying to say is, if you do not understand the function of one part of a/p personnel do not take verbal pot shots at hem. I notice that Smudge seems to be keeping his head down, so he should, but please don't have a go at others, let the spotters spot and the simmers sim, as long as they don't start insulting we should not.

If you happen to know Smudge perhaps you could identify to the "Trumpton fire brigade", I am sure they can educate him better than any us can.

Manofman -

If the posters are spotters and simmers, could you please talk about things that you may know about, like numbers of rivets and tail registrations!

Would you like to state why that statement brings your reply, it is conditional. As you did not post re firemen it does not affect you unless you are self concious about your pastime/hobby. As an aside, chimps are very intelligent and have been known to be fascinated by objects flying overhead.

[Egerton Flyer]

flyinthesky, whilst you have just as much right as everybody else to vent your anger on this forum, please lay off the spotters.:=
I say this as a spotter of nearly 30 years. I think you will find that most spotters are well informed about the work of airlines, airports etc.
I have nothing but respect for the firefighters and yes ok pilots:}
Yes I'm an idiot to stand on the mound on the coldest of days, but there is something about those tins that you fly that has kept me hooked for the last 30 years and could it not be true that the very people that got you so angry are from within the aviation industry.
Last point. Real spotters don't wave...:8:ok:

E.F

[BHX5DME]

Pax Dec 09 - 1,103,836 down 12.87%
Movements Dec 09 - 11,014 down 15.48%
Freight Dec 09 - 9,412 up 3.45%


Pax 2009 total - 18,838,733 down 12.00%
Movements 2009 total - 172,485 down 15.10%

[MrSoft]

Can I just give an umble pax view re this week's weather. Gotta say I was totally impressed with MAN's handling. I just scraped the 10pm Lingus out during Monday night's blizzard - almost felt embarrassed at the amount of graft going on around us just to export a meagre 20 pax or so to Dublin. This having coasted (as usual) through the superb T1 security in no time and had a nice pint in my hand within 5 minutes. Arrived back tonight, and a long taxi in gave a guided tour of T3 and T1 stands - seemed an incredible amount of work had gone in to getting those stands cleared. Dubliners on the bus were agog at the sight of those snow piles. Look around you, this is the worst snow we've all seen for many years? I think the airport did great :ok: kudos to anyone having to stand out in that all day.

[42psi]

For what it's worth the fire service staff assisting with snow clearence are not part of the operational fire cover.

Also it's not the first time they have assisted, they have done so in previous years.

Today there were folks mucking in from handling agents and office staff/managers from Olympic House and I even saw one of the taxi co-ordinators helping.

Also in the mix were the contractors who would have been carrying out the taxiway works.


From my point of view I note that the priorities and needs are dynamic in the sense that in the first instance there's a need to try and keep the runway and key intersections (some times only two) open plus the key taxiways and sufficient stands for expected arrivals.

You then throw in trying to allow departing a/c to get out, not easy in heavy snowfall when the heavy equipment can only get so close to an a/c - it's then down to a man (or woman) with a shovel/snow scoop!

Once that's under control it moves onto looking further foward to getting more taxiways/RWY intersections available and further stands.


Given the recent conditions getting more stands open requires shifting large amounts of snow ...... with the only areas available to store it being ........ stands ..... :E


Today was further hampered by being in LVP's in the morning and again this evening.


I'm very glad there was no real wind around today ... it didn't feel quite as cold as it might have done
:ooh:

[Bagso]

"I know BA have been begging all day for MAN to take diversions from LHR/LGW - in other words, 'here's a big bag of cash for you' - only for the airport to refuse on all occasions !!"

......er thank you very much but I think we will concentrate on keeping our own services going !

[The96er]

......er thank you very much but I think we will concentrate on keeping our own services going !


A valid point, however, where as other airports are suffering with similar conditions, they are still open to diverts as well as dispatching their own flights. In the case of BA who are handled by Aviance at MAN, they have canx or curtailed most of their flights which leaves men and equipment sat around doing nothing who could easily handle diverted flights. From my stance, it looks like there's a lot of dithering and twiddling of thumbs from MAN management and not much action !

[Ian Brooks]

Other airports with comparable ammounts of snow are Gatwick which is chaotic
at present. BHX has had far less snow over a much shorter period.

Ian B

[ACCMan]

A valid point, however, where as other airports are suffering with similar conditions, they are still open to diverts as well as dispatching their own flights. In the case of BA who are handled by Aviance at MAN, they have canx or curtailed most of their flights which leaves men and equipment sat around doing nothing who could easily handle diverted flights. From my stance, it looks like there's a lot of dithering and twiddling of thumbs from MAN management and not much action !

No dithering at all. A very clear decision ..... NO DIVERTS.

If you'd looked around yesterday morning, you would have seen very few remote stands free; most had parked / delayed aircraft on them.

Why disrupt our own customers, to take someone's else. Lets face it, what loyalty have BA ever shown to MAN?

[al446]

what loyalty have BA ever shown to MAN?

what loyalty have BA ever shown to any regional a/p?

[RoyHudd]

Snow Clearer 108, Stand 81/82, 1500L, 06/01/10, lost control of her/his rig at speed, smashed into and damaged airport facilities, due to sheer incompetence. She/he then drove away in a hurry. Concrete evidence of the damage recorded.

Now I do wonder whether the woman/man responsible reported this costly episode? In any event, a well-trained driver would never have been responsible for such incompetence.

[42psi]

Folks.. on the subject of diversions there is more to it than just MAPlc deciding ....

The handling agents are also part of the decision process ... little point in accepting diversions that a handling agent says it can't deal with.

I think that maybe in the very recent past you might possibly find the resident carriers have been objecting if they perceive they are waiting/getting less preferable stands etc. as a result of diversions being accepted.


Anyway ... with the weekend forecast it looks like it may be "here we go again"

:(



Anyone got room in their back garden for about a town sized heap of snow?

Make a corking five storey snowman :E

[MAN777]

Before I start this message can i say it is not aimed at hard working individuals that have bust a gut over the last week, it is directed at the upper management.

Just had a look at the stands, the majority are now cleared and operational. pier A has 1 blocked, pier B has one on the end blocked, pier C has 3-4 on the end blocked. Remote west apron stands at a guess I would say 6 are not in use due to equipment and snow mountain storage !.

Dont know about taxiways but it looks like Alpha in front of the fire station has not been touched.

Snow clearance wise there isnt much going on, there are some contractors using a JCB to clear the snow piles on pier C and the huge snow fleet is parked up outside airfield ops, not one of the vehicles is doing anything !!!

Terminal 1 & 3 most stands have aircraft on them. Terminal 2, 4 aircraft and the west apron 3 aircraft.

Hardly the busiest scene in the world.

Questions -

Why is the airport still not receiving diversions ? (Manchester lost much needed revenue this morning when Dublin was closed, their aircraft went all over the place)

Why is none of the snow fleet out clearing the remaining blocked stands and taxiways ?

Does the airport management care that the airports image is being tarnished by its inability to cope. ?

I know there are issues with lack of handling agents to deal with extras, but why ? It never used to happen, diversions used to turn up in the dozens but we always managed and dealt with them, so what has gone wrong with this once great airport that tackled anything that was thrown at it ?

MAG - Get a grip and stop hiding

I will put my tin hat on now :)

[Ian Brooks]

There are some reasonable questions there which I`m sure some ops people can answer and probably some sensible reasons why we are not taking diversions.
I have one question why is it so few exits from runway have been cleared which slows the arrival rate so much?


Ian B

[MAN777]

Further to my last post I have just looked at the TAF for the south east airports, there is a very high chance that there is going to be disruption again overnight with more snow and strong winds blowing the lying snow back onto the runways etc.

Has anybody at MAN clocked this yet ? does anybody at MAN want to try and earn some extra revenue in these hard times ?

Here is a tip from the old days : prepare just in case, shift dead aircraft off clear stands, Start to communicate and speak to all companies and agents telling them what is likely to happen.

And get rid of that NO Diversions NOTAM, its damaging business. Show airlines that MAN can cope and when the economy hopefully picks, they will look at MAN as "the airport that could", not the airport that couldnt.

[Trash_Hauler]

Well... perhaps one of the reasons that the airport cant cope is due to lack of staff. Redundancies have been happening all autumn and winter and now the airport (and associated handling agents, fuellers, caterers cleaners etc) is run by skeleton staff. Throw in the more than average snowfall, and if even a few people cant (or wont) get in, and therein lies a major problem.

[42psi]

I'll try and give you some info - but please note this is my take on the situation - not an "authorative quote" :ooh: (nor am I claiming any decisions are right/wrong!).

I'm also not aware (as of this time) of any changes which may have taken place overnight.


Twy Alpha is open and has been for many, many days now.

Nothing at all wrong with it outside the fire station at all :confused:


Some of the taxiways & runway links are not cleared. My understanding is that's a decision taken on a reasoned basis.

I'm sure the effect on traffic flow and expected traffic has been part of that decision process.

Right now we are having exceptional WX in comparison to previous years - don't we usually get the worst around mid Feb or so?.

When it starts to snow again if it's anything like the last snowfalls we can expect to find it difficult to keep it all clear.

I guess there's a better chance of that if you've not given yourself too much area to try and keep clear.

The current snow heaps are being moved ready for the expected snow and to give some space to store the new snow heaps :E

So factor in a reasonable expectation that we possibly face annother 8 weeks+ of possible ice/snow I would think someone is looking at how secure the future supplies of de-ice materials are (are the suppliers able to deliver and have sufficient stocks available??) and also trying to be prudent with what is to hand or available.

If there has been no further snowfall and the existing cleared areas are staying clear (if that's the plan) then I guess there's actually not much else for the snow fleet to do today? With periodic applications of anti-ice based on temperature forecast that's about all that can be done I guess....



As for the diverts - I did give a hint of that before :suspect:

There actually was a divert accepted yesterday, it sat for a very long time with only a company engineer present and without steps or the toilet service the captain was pleading for.

As for getting acts together and tarnished images, I'd guess that MAN would love to clean up and get extra revenue by accepting whatever diverts it can find space for.

But .... little point getting them in and on the ground if that's all that happens OR in getting beat up by it's resident carriers claiming they're suffering through the airports' desire to get more revenue....

Accepting diverts requires ensuring that all services agree :=

[Playamar2]

MAN777 - Two excellent posts

Trash Hauler - I understand what you are saying regading lack of staff, however all other airports in the UK with the possible exception of Heathrow are in the same situation. It has also been four days since the more that average snowfall which is what makes MAN777 posts so relevant. The airport can't use the excuse of just waiting for the excessive snow to melt, or customers (ie airlines) will see that MAPlc management is incompetent.

[42psi]

Trash Hauler ...spot on :ok:

From my point of view I've seen sufficient numbers of snow clearence staff and equipment/supplies available - tight at times but OK.

What I've also seen are aircraft waiting for longer than I'd be happy with once they've arrived.

Handling agents are under great pressures these days, as are airlines - it's almost a lose-lose situation.


On a lighter note has anyone noticed if the ground equipment is still on the snow covered grass between 235/237??

I'm not saying this is what happened but ........ once upon a time an EBT saw some very smooth and clear snow covered ground ... looked just like a road.

Sadly he couldn't recall exactly where the road use to be before the snow fell, but it looked so smooth and inviting. Although he should really I guess have remembered that there never had been a road there .. ever!

So off he went across the nice smooth surface .. only to find about halfway though ...... oh... errr.. missus .... yikes .... he became firmly stuck on the snow covered grass with chilly wet snow up above his axles.

His friend the pushback tug saw his predicament and rushed to his aid .... only also get even more firmly stuck .... and sinking .......

Eventually one of those big green snow clearing tractors came along and pulled the EBT clear .... sadly there was little he could do for his friend the push back tug - oh well, maybe he'll get dug out in the spring.

All tales have an ending .. as does this one ..... no-one knows why annother EBT tried the same stunt after seeing his friends come a cropper.

So now you might on a dark and windy night see the pushback tug and the second EBT sitting looking at the stars.

:O

[Mr A Tis]

I think its pretty evident from looking around that MAG, the handlers, the refuelers, everybody has cut staffing to the bone for this winter. Ive even heard rumours that consideration has been given that T3 could even be moth balled . (Ive no idea if this is true or not), but its clear staffing is based on a dramatic decrease in traffic & normal operations. The weather throws a spanner in the works, so there is no resource to handle diversions. 30 years ago BA had an army of staff here, who could handle as many BA 747s that LHR could throw at them. Times change.
The staff they do have here, have been doing a terrific job with the resources they've got:D:D

[The96er]

Ive even heard rumours that consideration has been given that T3 could even be moth balled .

Errrr no, it's not quite that bad - yet !!

BA had an army of staff here, who could handle as many BA 747s that LHR could throw at them.

BA now handled by Aviance, but still, over the last few days and for a few more days likely - BA have canx virtually all their domestic flying, which leaves quite a few Aviance staff - although not as much as the old BA days, available to handle diverts.

[Ian Brooks]

There is a point where cutting back and cutting back is going to kick you in the short and curlies, like now. A couple of friends of mine work for the handling agencies and
are seriously thinking of leaving due to the pressure they are put under.
I know that the airlines are putting a lot of pressure on the handling agencies to cut costs and of course the first thing that gives is staffing levels, struggle along whilst all is ok( no bad weather or big delays ) then all hell lets loose when the **** hits the fan.
In a way the airlines are their own worst enemy especially the like of Ryanair
which expect everything for nothing.


Ian B

[Mr A Tis]

In a way the airlines are their own worst enemy especially the like of Ryanair
which expect everything for nothing

Exactly, you get what you pay for. Everybody wants top service & lowest cost.
The airlines complain that passengers have this attitude, whilst at the same time, they do the same............It's how the UK works these days :-(