MANCHESTER - 7

[viscount702]

We all know that the stands at the end of Pier B were being modified to take the A380

Stand 12 was to be the A380 stand. There would also be 12L and 12 R.

Also 15 has been realigned and I think there have modifications to 10 as well.

Throughout MA have said there would be no changes to Pier B and no airbridges to stand 12.

I read somewhere recently that someone had been told that airbridges would now be provided to stand 12.

This is now confirmed on the MAG website on A380 readiness which says airbridges will be provided to 12 Could this be pressure from EK.

Does anyone know what exactly is being done.

The airbridges would seem also to be able to serve 12L and 12R as well

Will a bridge be provided to 15 and 10 if the latter hasn't already got one (I can't remember)

Also there has been talk from time to time about Pier B being modified to keep arrivals and departures apart . Is this part of this scheme or not.

[Betablockeruk]

Some text from todays press release:

"In Kerry, Aer Arann is re-introducing its Manchester link, operating four days per week from May 20th.
The airline has also launched two new services from City of Derry to Manchester and Edinburgh, both also due to begin operating from May 20th. The Manchester service will operate seven days per while the Edinburgh service will operate six days per week."

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

I thought that arriving/departing pax were always kept separate anyway.... they are at the moment.
However, I do believe that changes will be made to B-Pier with respect to passengers coming in from stand 12.

On another note, I'd be interested to hear any information regarding recent DC-8 cargo flights (2) and the 747-200F flight (1). I'm aware of their routings, but would be interested to know what kind of cargo they were carrying and what was inbound/outbound.

[purplehelmet]

awr
i was told the other day that the first dc8 was some rich american moving to the uk had charted the dc8 to fly his house contents and personal effects over here.

[Betablockeruk]

Glazer? :}

Sorry, I'll get m' coat.

[chiglet]

Nahh, Bill Gates......


































he already has Windows




Hat, coat...door

[MUFC_fan]

i was told the other day that the first dc8 was some rich american moving to the uk had charted the dc8 to fly his house contents and personal effects over here.


Why on earth would a rich american move to a country with a 50% tax rate?!

I suppose the free world actually is more attractive than money to some people!

I'm sure our tax system will be very appreciative of his donations!:ok:

[Momentary Lapse]

Living here, and paying tax here, are not necessarily co-dependent. Lord Ashcroft can advise how/why.

[Adola69]

What a super passenger experience will be had on the A.380, That is until it arrives at Manchester !
Now the experience just gets better!!!

On landing on runway 05L, it will have to roll all the way to the end of the runway to vacate at J1 to be met by a follow-me. It will then be escorted along taxiway J and re-enter the runway via link H. It will then proceed to backtrack the runway until link BD where it will vacate (Still with a follow-me) onto taxiway B and then eventually onto stand 12 I'd imagine. However at the moment stand 62 is the only A.380 stand available.

After this the pax will be greeted by either a fleet of top-notch buses, or a very long walk down an travalator-less pier to the immigration hall with its up-hill and down-dale route over the Int. Deps.

When it's time to depart off runway 23R it will taxi to holding point D1 where it will with the aid of a follow-me again, execute a left turn onto the runway and backtrack (dodging the holes ) to exit H where it will join Juliett to the holding point at J1.

Meanwhile whilst all this is going on, the rest of the airport comes to a standstill :D

Ringway fit for the 21st century? - Ermmmm --- maybe the early 20th with Fred Karno in total control:ugh:

A lesson on how not to impress people I think?

[Ringwayman]

Another post denigrating MAN. For an airport with these apparent woes, perhaps Adola69 may wish to come with reasons why the airport keeps picking up awards?! Or why EK is planning to have A380 ops despite the perceived shortcomings?

[Scottie Dog]

Ringwayman - I think that you might be surprised if you knew who Adola69 is.

I would treat his posts with a degree of reverence if I were you!! Okay, maybe he is going slightly over the top with his description, however the overall comments are valid with regards to the routings.

All we need now is a proper taxiway system that will permit stand to runway holding point wih out any diversions - oh and whilst a think about it, a bit less of the 05L landings so as to get 23R ILS up to the required number of hours to permit a CAT111 rating (but you can't control the weather!!).

[Betablockeruk]

Re A380: 05R landing and 23L departures would be a solution. So, when do the Mobberley concessions expire and can a daily departure by a A380 be classed as exceptional circumstance?

[ManofMan]

when do the Mobberley concessions expire

When we have enough traffic, noticed the other day that it opened at 8.30, closed at 10.00, opened again at 4.40 to close at 18.00.

Maybee the owning coucils should look at opening a housing estate on it ??

[jongeman]

It's the middle of winter, of course the runway is utilised less. At the moment, in mid-March, it's needed at peak periods as the opening hours testify. We've all been to MAN on many occasions and seen a queue for departures and a steady flow of aircraft on finals, stretching away towards the Pennines.

I have a suggestion; maybe Boston with 26m ppa and 4 main runways should close a couple, and maybe Amsterdam doesn't need all of its 5 with 46m ppa.:ugh:

[ManofMan]

I have a suggestion; maybe Boston with 26m ppa and 4 main runways should close a couple, and maybe Amsterdam doesn't need all of its 5 with 46m ppa.

So why dont you let the powers that be know of your plan, dont reckon many of the Boston/Amsterdam crew read this thread ???

Meanwhile i understand Top Gear might be making a bid to take over runway 2 at Manchester for filming on.

[Ian Brooks]

We are just going through the biggest recesion for years things will get better and we will need the second runways again.
All I can say is it`s a good job we have it coz if we tried again to get we wouldn`t


Ian B

[Bagso]

Another post denigrating MAN. For an airport with these apparent woes, perhaps Adola69 may wish to come with reasons why the airport keeps picking up awards?! Or why EK is planning to have A380 ops despite the perceived shortcomings?

Re A380...not sure it can be described as denigrating Manchester when its an exact technical description of what will happen ?

On another point the airport bods recently addressed the local aviation society ...."5/6 years at least before we return to anything like pre recession traffic figures"

... given the optimism with other forecasts this might be equally optimistic....!

[MANFlyer]

Ah, the Manchester thread....it always feels like Deja Vu...:)

I was at a reception in a certain S.E. Asian city a few weeks ago with a UKTI/NWDA Trade Mission Group that also had tagging along some MIDAS folk and some rather (or very) senior people from MAN.

They did a very nice presentation to a receptive audience of invited guests about why people should fly to MAN (shame the people it was mainly aimed at were in Sydney that day, but there you go...) with some impressive and interesting statistics, not least the claim that Manchester had four Premier League teams, not two. This came as a bit of a surprise to the people from Wigan and Bolton in the room....

It was quite amusing how a number of people in the group (many of whom are very frequent business travellers) expressed a desire to 'have a word' with Mr H about 'issues' at MAN, and to be fair he took it all in and was pretty good with his replies. I am sure I don't need to list the most popular complaints he got.

One bit of interesting information was who the route folk had hopes would be a possible new long haul airline to arrive and the proposed route. It certainly wasn't one I'd considered, and I don't think it's been dreamt up on here yet with all the others. It would be a welcome addition to the route network if it comes off.

This is now confirmed on the MAG website on A380 readiness which says airbridges will be provided to 12 Could this be pressure from EK

It could also be for the ones based a bit further away, who are sending a longer version of their current bird in a couple of more days a week from the end of the month. Not pressure from them, but possibly pressure to them/carrot to move.

I know they have been looking at possible gates down there.

[steve platt]

Manflyer

The long haul airline that nobody on here has considered wouldnt be Phillipines Airlines would it?

[TURIN]

It could also be for the ones based a bit further away, who are sending a longer version of their current bird in a couple of more days a week from the end of the month. Not pressure from them, but possibly pressure to them/carrot to move.

I know they have been looking at possible gates down there.

Nah, they ain't movin'. Too sweet over on T2.

[conti onepass]

SQ7773!!!!!!

[mybrico]

PR to MAN that would be wishful thinking, PR have no flights to Europe and the firsts ports of call would be London and Rome. However MNL has a similar problem to Manchester with a massive cheap fares uplift by Eithad, Gulf and Emirates from Manila with onward connections from the Gulf to Europe. This has taken away direct European carriers such as BA and LH who pulled out years ago. Only KLM do the big hop with a 14 hour B777 flight. However unlike Manchester traffic is growing fast, now 26m (up 11% in 2009) and all from mainly a single runway operation (yes I know there is a crosswind)!.

[jongeman]

Meanwhile i understand Top Gear might be making a bid to take over runway 2 at Manchester for filming on

Sorry ManofMan, wasn't having a pop at you specifically!..... just the malaise affecting this board at the moment. Things are cyclical in aviation, we're going through the tightest period I can remember but before too long those 2 runways will be occupied as they previously were. I don't quite understand why MAN has recorded such massive drops in comparison with other airports, but I suppose BD and BA longhaul, SQ, Virgin trains, Ryanair and finally booming LPL can all take some of the credit for that.

I'm not sure about PR, but Royal Brunei have rights into MAN, via Bangkok? Speculation otherwise completely futile!

[GulfTraveller]

Sounds like Royal Brunei who have publicly revealed their wish to serve MAN. The UK-Brunei ASA was recently updated. Presumably this would be operated to connect with their Australian services. They may operate via BKK but with current equipment would need an intermediate stop in the Gulf.

[Ian Brooks]

Jongeman

Couple of easy answers losing BA/BMI Stateside and Ryanair has given the biggest
hits accounting for a very large percentage drop as you say and the railways have taken a lot but this does now seem to have bottomed out
The US situation should start to sort it`s self out this summer with extra flights coming on line, however the Ryanair flights won`t ease until Sept/Oct when Ryanair
chucked the dummy out of the pram last year.
There is quite a lot of positive things happening many perhaps not very exciting but
never the less all important. New domestic services show that things are improving
as do re-instatement of services ie CSA and Air Baltic

Birmingham has seen to have a much smaller drop in numbers, however Ryanair
and bmiBaby are both dropping services and they are not picking new ones up either so this year will not be good for them
I don`t have the figures to hand but Liverpool is suffering a down turn at present
which I think is quite large.

Lets all hope that the freight continues to improve like it has in last 3 or 4 months
and as Suseman said a while back this is usually a barometer of how the overall
trend is going

Ian B

[mybrico]

this from another board:

"The CAA has released provisional passenger figures for January 2010 which show that 322,048 passengers passed through Liverpool an increase of 7.9% over January 2009 which is encouraging. However, the figures were still below the January 2008 & 2007 figures by about 40,000 passengers.

Liverpool was the ONLY major airport in the UK to show an increase in passenger figures in January 2010. The only other airports to show increases for January 2009 were Dundee, Manston and Tresco in the Scilly Isles.

Interestingly Manchester's passenger fgures for January 2010 are down 14% on January 2009 levels, with a moving annual total of 18.4 million passengers, a far cry from the days when tha MAT was 22 Million."

OK, just one month but thats a big gap from 14% down to 8% up. MAN needs a new way forward - lets hope the change of management does the trick. MAN does feel like a long term structural decline made worst by the recession

[dwlpl]

I don`t have the figures to hand but Liverpool is suffering a down turn at present which I think is quite large.

What makes you think that?

October stats were -2% and the three months since have recorded +8%, +6% and +7.8%.

[jongeman]

Point taken re LPL. There's also LH to Stuttgart and I also noticed that WW are continuing with 1 daily to AMS through to October although I could have sworn this was one of their scrapped routes.

[Ringwayman]

don't forget the impact of the weather in January which led to cancelled services - passengers may not have been rebooked onto those MAN services that did run. Might not have amounted to much, but still it wouldn't help with the stats.

If we summarise what's happening this summer:
PIA an extra service to Islambad at the expense of LBA
CSA reintroduce Prague 6 weekly
easyJet new services to Sharm el Sheik, Zurich nad Mahon
Air Baltic to Vilnius and Riga
American to JFK daily
DL back on JFK daily
Flybe new Bournemouth service (and the French regional routes reintroduced)
Aer Arann reintroduce 4 weekly to Kerry, 6 weekly (or is it daily?) to Londonderry
Etihad go to 77W from June
Emirates expected to introduce A380 from sept
Singapore Airlines restore to 5 weekly with B773 with F class (that for reasons best known to themselves don't appear to want MAN pax to book it?!)
bmibaby: drop Cork, add Lourdes
lufthansa: add Stuttgart

Other route in the pipeline is Biman's 2 weekly Dhaka-MAN-JFK service.

So it's not going to be that bad a summer performance.

[Beaver666]

BT Vilnius route is already cancelled due to low sales.

[Bagso]

we're going through the tightest period I can remember but before too long those 2 runways will be occupied as they previously were

On what possible basis is this comment made ?

BMI could not make MAN pay despite high load factors and a domestic network fed from other UK points.

BA/Virgin have no intention of expanding outside the South East.

It is highley unlikley we will get a wide range and more importantly a "sustainable" number of Asian airlines in the near term.

Air Asia ...possibly ! but hardly 20-30 flights a day !

There are vested commercial interests in global alliances that favour Heathrow, so no opportunities with say Qantas SAA etc.

The US market is pretty much tied up....

So apart from an increase in the UK IT market to Spain/Turkey etc and the "odd" new service or modest increase in capacity where on earth is the growth coming from not just to get us back to pre 2007 levels but to take us to 35m....?

I would love to believe otherwise but if you think there is a queue of long haul and even short airlines waiting to get into Manchester you are deluded.

For a variety of reason MAN missed the boat, or should I say plane !

[Ringwayman]

bmi could make MAN work but then decided to bump up prices too much so as to render their services unprofitable. However, there is scope for additional Star alliance services to be added.

I disagree about airline partnerships with BA - there is only finite room for those airlines to to keep adding to LHR frequency and capacity as they have been doing since being encouraged to leave MAN, with addtional AA routes to come over the next 5 to 10 years. We know that Qantas is not coming back but Jetstar will by looking to take up the challenge but that's 4 to 5 years away. They need the 787 to be ready now.

Virgin is hamstrung by not having enough aircraft of the right size to launch more routes outside London; it's been reported elsewhere that 2011 is expected to see Las Vegas and Antigua launched with Barbados back to 2 weekly. Having A330s and 787s will make more routes more "doable".

For low cost/low price services, both easyJet and Flybe will steadily add frequency and/or destinations. The unknown quantities are are going to be bmibaby and Jet2

[toledoashley]

Yes and No with MAN missing the boat. BA really needed help with the regional routes 3/4 years ago - and nothing happened, which in turn killed off the JFK flight. At the same time there wasnt really enough promotion to attract the big locos.

Now it has been accepted that MAN needs EZY, and I would expect them to expand over the next couple of years, maybe to about 10 aircraft? This depends on what happens with a reborn WW and constantly changing LS.

Long haul - could anything be sustained apart from leisure routes without a reliable feeder airline??

[MANFlyer]

Nah, they ain't movin'. Too sweet over on T2.

While I would have agreed with you for the last umpteen times they have previously been asked to move as they always dimissed it, they have recently started to come around to the idea. I am not saying they will definitely move, but they are considering it. I know for a fact they looked at gates on B pier for the 77W as I flew out on the 327 the day they were doing it.

Singapore Airlines restore to 5 weekly with B773 with F class (that for reasons best known to themselves don't appear to want MAN pax to book it?!)

I am afraid contrary to some opinions on here, the F cabin on that route is not aimed at the MAN market. It's for MUC. MAN has got it by accident rather than design.

As for the long haul route. I am not going to say what it was, as I don't think it would be appropriate. I can say for certain it isn't PR (who dreamt that one up ?!) or BI.

[Bagso]

My concern is that there has been a seismic shift in airline strategies and that Manchester more than any other airport has been effected by this. I think a few of us have been sucked in by the smokescreen of recession with a mistaken belief that once things "pick up" everything in the garden will be lovely......i am not so sure.

I was naive enough to believe that once an airline especially long haul received saturation at Heathrow the overspill would come to Manchester, problem is I have been observing that for nigh on 25 years and it never seems to get to the tipping point.....

...first it was 5, then 10 and in some cases is now 15 services a day from LHR to JFK, Toronto, Australia, Hong Kong Tokyo, Jo burg etc etc !

Surely Manchester would at some benefit from at least a few directs ?

....and then if frequency was a problem the A380 pitches up ....amasingly frequency has not only been maintained but capacity has still increased massively, and all this despite the recession.

From the other side of the world the distance between Manchester and Heathrow must seem negligible and despite its size we suffer conversley, despite weilding massive economic clout in the region.

Sorry to bang on about this but I would have thought MANs best hope with regard to growth especially long haul, was somebody like Air India who could instantly provide 4/5 new destinations without having to fill the whole back end !

PS there is much talk of the EK380 personally I would much rather see 4/5 daily flights than an A380 !

[parky747]

BMI could not make MAN pay despite high load factors and a domestic network fed from other UK points.

I would disagree that BMI couldn't make MAN a viable base for its long haul, I guess that they followed the BA stratagy and focused on the potential £££££ extra that would come from LHR, but look where they are now!!! 2 of the 3 A332s leaving the fleet. BMI are all but a LH feeder arm now.:ugh:

[mickyman]

Bagso

I agree with most of what you have written
in your last post, up till the bit about AirIndia.

parky747

Your post is spot-on...in my opinion!

MM

[mickyman]

Toledoashley

'which in turn killed off the JFK flight.'

Sorry but I do not agree with your view on the JFK link -
it was a purely operational decision for BA - and sensible
for an airline in trouble.

MM

[toledoashley]

Well, there was nothing left of BA when they stopped the BA flight - all they had were the London flights. With no connecting flights at either end, how can it suceed?

[Manchester Kurt]

David Ottewell's Politics Blog Archive Manchester the new Heathrow? (http://blogs.menmedia.co.uk/politics/2010/03/manchester-the-new-heathrow/)

and

Manchester Airport 'to be as busy as Heathrow' - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1194908_manchester_airport_to_be_as_busy_as_heathrow)

[Betablockeruk]

"Air China Cargo on Saturday 06MAR10 launched 2 weekly Shanghai – Beijing – Copenhagen – Paris CDG – Shanghai flight, with Boeing 747-400 Freighter."

Guess we're not getting our flight back then :*

[Mr A Tis]

Well, in the absence of Cathay serving the largest Chinese community in the UK, and Chinese using any route ex MAN except CX codeshare via LHR, maybe Air China are thinking of a pax service from MAN which could also carry substantial cargo too.

[spannersatcx]

Air China and Cathay Pacific have just launched a joint venture cargo operation, hard to operate both on the same route.

Passenger flight will return when equipment is available in the right config. :ok:

[Manchester Kurt]

Trams extension back on track in £26m deal - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/community/public_transport/s/1194912_trams_extension_back_on_track_in_26m_deal)

Metrolink is moving a step closer to the airport with the money allocated today.

[Skipness One Echo]

Passenger flight will return when equipment is available in the right config.

Whatever makes you say this? They have B747-400s, B777-300ERS and A340-300s, what's missing?

[spannersatcx]

right config

400's phasing out to freighters, 340 uneconomical, no 2 class 777 yet!

[Bagso]

David Ottewell's Politics Blog Archive Manchester the new Heathrow?

and

Manchester Airport 'to be as busy as Heathrow' - Manchester Evening News


Is it April 1st ?

Some idiot produces a report predicting that "an airport" will basically operate with the same aircraft using exactly the same fuel some 40 years hence...assuming I guess no changes in technology, design etc

..some prat is then stupid enough to comment on it..........!

..AND then lo and behold the idiots at the M.E.N then report on it !

I need a darkened room !
:ugh:

[purplehelmet]

bagso
agreed nearly fell off me chair and choked on me cornflakes this morning when i read this,
and to think they get paid to come out with this nonsense:ugh:

[Skipness One Echo]

400's phasing out to freighters, 340 uneconomical, no 2 class 777 yet!

What makes you think the A340 is uneconimical? It even operates the off peak LHR until the summer. Is this another route that is just waiting on the 787? Dear me....

[Businesstraveller]

I won't waste too many column inches seriously considering the fanciful notion that Manchester will ever be as big/busy as Heathrow - clearly ridiculous. On a different note though, how long are they going to be faffing around with the escalators from Terminal 1 to the Station? Strikes me it took less time to extend the Station.

[lexoncd]

I too laughed at the prospect.

Facts.
UK population to remain at similar levels.
Holiday entitlement to remain static or reduce as economic realities bite and peoples pensions are affected.
Other airports would expand in direct proportion hence lower growth at Man if LBA, LPL didn't have competing users.

Long Haul??? The 787 isn't the answer.

[FL370 Officeboy]

I personally quickly dismissed this article as a standard attempt by climate change believers at getting more people onside with their campaign through their usual medium of exaggeration and scaremongering.

For once, the comments in the MEN article are *generally* quite sensible.

Manchester Airport 'to be as busy as Heathrow' - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1194908_manchester_airport_to_be_as_busy_as_heathrow)

[spannersatcx]

What makes you think the A340 is uneconimical? It even operates the off peak LHR until the summer It is being replaced in May with a 777. 340 is uneconomical with a tag in europe, don't worry it won't be happening soon, 2-3 years down the line when we have 2 class 777's available.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Sorry but I do not agree with your view on the JFK link -
it was a purely operational decision for BA - and sensible
for an airline in trouble.


Absolute and utter garbage.

BA1502/03 was one of the highest yielding flights in the BA network.

Walsh is the one who killed the regions, coupled with absolutely inept managment.

[MUFC_fan]

Absolute and utter garbage.

BA1502/03 was one of the highest yielding flights in the BA network.


I don't know how you can specifically say that you know it was 'one of the highest yielding routes.' Unless you work within the department then there is pretty much no way. Unless Company House has gone a lot more in depth!

I also doubt it is one of the 'highest yielding routes' when you compare it to some of the others.


Walsh is the one who killed the regions, coupled with absolutely inept managment.


If they win against the Unions (which is looking very likely!), they can perform an integration with IB as efficiently as Delta has done*, get ATI with American, Finnair and Co. and turn the company back into a profitable machine (which no doubt these processes would do), then I doubt his leadership and management team will go down as 'inept.'

If all those processes take place, air travel across the pond will never be the same again...

*I know the BA/IB deal is different to the DL/NW, being more of an AF/KL merger, but I was commenting on the superb process in which Delta were able to bind the two almost perfectly.

[mickyman]

Ex cargo clown

Having a single Int route remaining in the regions
MAN-JFK (no matter how successful) was obviously
a cost that BA management thought not economic
(enough!) for them. ie: it was an operational
decision - a bit like BMI took a year down the line.

MM

[BHX5DME]

Feb 2010 Pax - 1,047,855 down 10.57%
Feb 2010 Movements - 10,710 down 13.56%

12M end 28.02.10 Pax - 18,545,721 down 11.79%
12M end 28.02.10 Move - 168,380 down 15.46%

[horatio_b]

Down 10.5%... probably to be expected considering the weather conditions

Manchester Airport passenger numbers fell 10.5 per cent in February - Crain's Manchester Business (http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/article/20100310/FREE/100319991/1083)

[Momentary Lapse]

Yes, but >11% over the rolling 12 months suggests a more structural problem than just bad wx one month.

If we assume better weather would have brought better pax numbers, then perhaps a recovery is underway? :ok:

[Egerton Flyer]

I'm not surprised by the figures, this part of the world is struggling like hell at the moment.
I for one will not be taking any long haul flights this year.
Add to this the demise of XL and merging of Thomson etc. I can't see an improvement until the end of this year.

E.F.

[MUFC_fan]

I very much agree.

Four of, if not the, biggest airlines at Manchester were TCX, TOM, FCA and MYT. Now that has been halved (alright, the market is now not exactly HALF of what is was but there has been some streamlining.)

Then add AA, BA, BD, XL, VLM and LS reductions/pull outs, it isn't nice viewing...

[Ian Brooks]

And of course the biggest cause RYANAIR which will not factor out for another
6 months or so


Ian B

[MUFC_fan]

And of course the biggest cause RYANAIR which will not factor out for another
6 months or so


When comparing Ryanair to the changes I mentioned above, it is nothing but a drop in the water. The flights weren't getting high load factors as they were new to the market.

[Betablockeruk]

Manchester Airport is to host the world's first Airport Food & Beverage Conference & Awards. September 5-7

:} Bit early for 1st April :}

and the winner for most pints sold for breakfast is.........

(I expect the holiday types to start early but was shocked at number of business types neckng a pint pre 0800 in T3)

[sparkysam]

Its NEVER too early for a pint

[MAN OPS]

Sunday 11 Apr and Monday 12 Apr - PK701/702 will be operated by 743
this will also be the case on 16th April.

Biman now expected to start on 30th March - believe it when we see it!

Freebird are roumerd to be basing a aircraft at MAN this summer for charter work.

[planenutter]

I have heard that they still are on for march 28th start!

[sam1993]

Freebird are roumerd to be basing a aircraft at MAN this summer for charter work. Any further info on this - who for / when e.t.c?

[Bagso]

12M end 28.02.10 Pax - 18,545,721 down 11.79%
12M end 28.02.10 Move - 168,380 down 15.46%

....yes many thanks to our resident BHX correspondent for spreading the unadulterated joy which is; The Monthly Movements Figures.

Forget the weather these figures are an utter disaster!

The last time pax were this low was 2000, the movements are even worse, they are below 1999 levels....more worryingly there is no sign of major recovery. The few snippets reported here re ETIHAD and SIA etc are welcome but will surely make little difference ?

With Liverpool "gleefully" reporting a 10% increase I just don't share the optimism that "it will all soon be alright". Whilst their market is dominated by just two airlines they are at least doing well !

In terms of MAN Long haul is a basket case and the short haul market is little better.

More than ever an airline looking at a North West-Europe service is surely always going to be looking over their shoulder at RYR (and indeed EZY) from Liverpool as they become more and more firmly established.

If there is money to be made on a route it is they who will probably exploit it.... and passengers who would at one time have chosen or been allocated Manchester as a departure point now have the luxury of online selection, they see the fares and vote accordingly.

Pardon the pun but I think this damage is terminal....

....Thank goodness EZY got in when they did or these figures would have been even worse.

Anyway not to worry at least we still have that Food and Beverage conference to look forward to in SEP........... infact there even be more room by then !

"fresh pies everyone , c'mon get ya fresh pies"

........fantastic MAG just bloody fanstastic !

[Ian Brooks]

Come on how many times do we have to mention this but Ryanair is the major cause
of this drop, infact well over half of it and we will see things improve as soon as they are factored out in September and the BA/BD flights which account for 25,000 pax alone.
The reason the figures at Liverpool have increased is because Ryanair has in effect forced it`s pax from Manchester to go there

The IT market has also been hit very badly to EEC countries with Mnchester
being the largest market outside London by a very long way


Ian B

[MUFC_fan]

With Liverpool "gleefully" reporting a 10% increase I just don't share the optimism that "it will all soon be alright". Whilst their market is dominated by just two airlines they are at least doing well !


Who is doing really well? FR/U2 or LPL? There is a difference. If FR weren't prepared to pay MAN charges, I can guarantee LPL will be accepting much lower.

I am not trying to turn this into a MAN v LPL post but I just wanted to point out that passengers does not equal profit.

[Mouser]

The reason the figures at Liverpool have increased is because Ryanair has in effect forced it's pax from Manchester to go there
I think you'll find that its EZY and to a lesser extent KLM that have given Liverpool its positive growth, as yet Ryanair pax figures don't seem to have recovered as well as EZY's.

[MUFC_fan]

I think you'll find that its EZY and to a lesser extent KLM that have given Liverpool its positive growth, as yet Ryanair pax figures don't seem to have recovered as well.


Exactly. KLM have done a fantastic job at LPL and when their fourth daily service comes on line I am sure it will be a success. They have made the market work.

We must also remember that three F70s per day will have a little more impact on 5 million passengers p/a than 19 million.

Anyway, this is an MAN thread not LPL!:ok:

[mybrico]

I really don’t think we can blame LPL or LBA or FR or BA for that matter for the decline. I fear this is long-term structural decline caused by market shifts and MAG's seeming inability to respond. Nobody is forced to other airports they go because the flight they want isn’t from MAN. MAN's traditional northern chartered market is in steep decline, point to point long haul has gone and its all done through hubs which almost any airport in the UK can give you a connection world-wide with one stop!, short haul European has gone loco and we know the story there. The terminal infrastructure is old and offers no advantages over other airports and so we just have its location. Manchester is a great location for transatlantic however I think it needs major terminal redevelopment on the scale of T5 at LHR to attract a based quality airline and develop into a hub. However that isn't going to happen.

[Ian Brooks]

Yes there are a few Scheduled operators that have bucked the trend, infact quite a few
when you look at it, KLM, Swiss, Lufthansa, Air France, Emirates all have good loads
and Swiss and Lufthansa have both mentioned Manchester for praise.
The main things that have pulled Manchester down are lo-cost/IT to Spain and to a lesser extent Greece.
I have not been to Spain recently but many people I speak to say that many of the resorts out there are dead and it can be seen by the large drop in number of flights to likes of Malaga, Palma, Alicante etc

Ian B

[MAN777]

UK based holidays are enjoying a boom period, caravan sites are packed all summer, camping stores are seeing huge demand for tents. I know this because I am one of the price sensitive passengers who have changed their travel habits and resorted to UK holidays. I used to take the family to Spain for about £10 each (or lower) with Ryanair. APD, Fuel duty and above all else the Euro exchange rate is the reason for this change.

I checked my flight log (I know I am sad) using Manchester

2008

14 return flights, 4 on business the rest short breaks or holidays.

2009

3 return flights on business.

2010

Nothing booked and no plans to do so !


I believe I am not the only one.

[Mr A Tis]

Recently travelled MAN-LPA. Half the flights to chose from than there were a couple of years ago & twice as expensive. Where I went to in Gran Canaria completly dead.
On the upside also just travelled MAN-MUC with Lufthansa last week, on the same days that EZY fly MAN-MUC & there were only 2-3 empty seats both ways, so good for Luftie. Just a shame EZY are not selecting unserved destinations, but picking on MUC, HEL & CPH seems to add nothing to the MAN portfolio & only to posssibly undermine existing carriers.
The Mon/Tue morning Germanwings flights are good to connect onwards, but its annoying that its linked to BMI baby website. So, you can't connect MAN-CGN-BCN for instance because it automatically transfers you to Baby as their partner for that route. When of course, we know, Baby dont operate that route anymore. Wish Germanwings & Baby would get their act together.

[ian_h1]

Mr A Tis

Trythis site to book your MAN-CGN-BCN flights it seems the airport have actually worked with germanwings to develop these loco connections - ah if only MAN......

cologne-bonn-connect (http://www.cologne-bonn-connect.com/)

[dwlpl]

The reason the figures at Liverpool have increased is because Ryanair has in effect forced it`s pax from Manchester to go there

Thats not the case.

Only four routes overlapped both airports and that only amounted to 26k pax in the month, August 2009, of the FR announcement to pull the routes from MAN.

Only one route was moved to LPL and thats the Bremen route.

[BHX5DME]

12M end 28.02.10 Pax - 18,545,721 down 11.79%
12M end 28.02.10 Move - 168,380 down 15.46%

....yes many thanks to our resident BHX correspondent for spreading the unadulterated joy which is; The Monthly Movements Figures.

Bagso

It is nothing against Manchester, in fact most of here at BHX have always been jealous of Manchester's traffic.

BHX is down about 7% pm at the moment, just hoping this HS2 train service comes to be and BHX can hopefully clawback traffic it has lost over the year to LHR.

BHX should be around the 18m pax level by now, the capacity is there now !

[Skipness One Echo]

In terms of MAN Long haul is a basket case and the short haul market is little better

Er doesn't have more long haul than anybody else except London?

Even mean Gatwick is down to

Delta A332 daily ATL
US Airways A333 daily CLT
Emirates x 3
Qatar x 3
BA based B772 x 6-8
VS B744 5-6

....having lost Etihad, Continental and a host of US links. Meaning they have more flights but fewer options. Perspective is that rarest thing.

Look at Glasgow, was always going to be the next big thing too, then came the Alliances and now it's a feeder to London again with a couple of good exceptions.

[Bagso]

Not sure that RYR "forced" anybody to go anywhere, if its cheaper than a competitor product can you really blame them ?

...that said, has the RYR tfr made such a massive difference ?

I was thinking more in terms of the knock on effect on others services which might just about make money at the margins until "another" or "expanded" service starts down the road, which in turn erodes market share at MAN.

My more general point was whether having RYR on the doorstep is likely to put expansion off in the future thus crippling MANs potentials to recover rather than the obvious arguements on like for like tfr of moved services.

It's also just worth pointing out that whilst the figs at are Liverpool are OK under the circumstances, they themselves are almost 1m down from a year or two back...they crept into the top ten based not so much based on growth as massive declines on a larger scale elsewhere !

Re LGW - I agree Skipness but I think as a "London Airport " there will always be demand for slots, so even though it has lost a shedload of services I suspect these have all been filled with other flights, whilst not ideal I would at least rather see that, than a massive general erosion across all sectors.

Re Monthly Movements...keep them coming, they always make interesting reading and it certainly wasn't intended as a BHX dig.

[dwlpl]

It's also just worth pointing out that whilst the figs at are Liverpool are OK under the circumstances, they themselves are almost 1m down from a year or two back...they crept into the top ten based not so much based on growth as massive declines on a larger scale elsewhere !

The actual figures are
2009 - 4,948,046
2008 - 5,384,753
2007 - 5,520,283
2006 - 4,971,452

[TSR2]

they themselves are almost 1m down from a year or two back

Calling 572,237 'almost 1 million' is stretching it a bit. :ok:

[Mr A Tis]

Poor old MAN, even though I live on the doorstep, I find myself forced to book yet another flight from Liverpool, this time Bordeaux ( Baby 1 x week ex MAN useless)
I've previously had to book MADRID (no service here), LISBON (Baby 2 x week ex MAN useless), BERLIN (no service).
I late using LPL, apart from the journey, their security queues are hopeless compared to MAN & as for baggage delivery on the return, dreadfull to say the least, but when your local huge airport with 3 terminals can't provide a service...................

[Ringwayman]

I didn't realise MAN had an in-house airline. So, yes it is remiss of the airport not to operate all the services we want using their own airline. Unless you mean that the current operators at MAN are either unable or unwilling to provide services to those destinations that you want to travel at a frequency that you perceive to be correct.

[dwlpl]

their security queues are hopeless compared to MAN & as for baggage delivery on the return, dreadfull to say the least,

From June your journey through security should be much better due to the expansion.

[MUFC_fan]

Poor old MAN, even though I live on the doorstep, I find myself forced to book yet another flight from Liverpool, this time Bordeaux ( Baby 1 x week ex MAN useless)
I've previously had to book MADRID (no service here), LISBON (Baby 2 x week ex MAN useless), BERLIN (no service).
I late using LPL, apart from the journey, their security queues are hopeless compared to MAN & as for baggage delivery on the return, dreadfull to say the least, but when your local huge airport with 3 terminals can't provide a service...................


So you have used LPL for Madrid, Lisbon, Berlin and now Bordeaux. Can I suggest you go somewhere else that IS served from MAN if you don't like LPL?

Remember that for those destinations, it is easy to connect at LHR, BRU, FRA, MUC, CDG, AMS, ZRH etc. added to the fact that air miles are available for the lucrative customers.

The only airline that could make those destinations you mentioned work more feasibly (maybe not Bordeaux) would be easyJet - but do you want them to do a Jet2 style expansion - grow massively, pull back and then realise that they can do it much better more slowly?

The economy is soon to recover, lets see how it pans out. The routes can obviously not be the most profitable from MAN as I am sure that easyJet's analysis would have led to LIS, MAD etc. being launched opposed to MUC, HEL etc.

[Mr A Tis]

Can I suggest you go somewhere else that IS served from MAN if you don't like LPL

Erm the idea is you book transport where you want to, or need to go !!:ugh:
Not what's available.
Connections to these type of destinations are both expensive and very time consuming for the lenghth of journey.
Unless you mean that the current operators at MAN are either unable or unwilling to provide services to those destinations that you want to travel at a frequency that you perceive to be correct
Yes that is correct.

From 4 x flights a day to Berlin to Zero, From 2 x a day to Madrid to Zero & from a daily Bordeaux to 1 iffy will it run or not service. The Airport has to take some responsibility for losing these services & letting LPL run away with never ending new destinations, all we get here are additional flights to existing destinations.

[Ringwayman]

WHy should the airport take any responsibilty for passengers not booking those services that you want to take whereas they want to book on those services where there are already options for them to utilise? If MAN got those new services once over and passengers didn't use them, what makes you think that getting those sevices again will see passengers flock to use them now? i'd argue that Bordeaux would be more useful as a Flybe destination than as a bmibaby given the proliferance of French regional destinations they offer - perhaps the 1 weekly 737 in April to mid-May, 2 weekly mid-May to mid-June and 4 weekly mid-July to mid-September might see them able to operate at double the frequency as it should, theoretically, be easier to fill 70+ seats then attempt to get 130+ passengers on to those services.

[OltonPete]

The CAA Feb stats are out and I was just pondering over the Middle East figures.

Dubai 45540 up 15%
Abu Dhabi 11315 down 13%
Doha 13444 up 17%

The EK averages 407 per flight and QR 240 but as yet only Etihad
have announced an increase in capacity yet their figures seem to be
going backwards.

We know the rumours about EK but what about Qatar? There was a
mention on another site of an upgrade to a 77L, which makes no sense
what so ever.

Pete

[Mr A Tis]

Ringwayman, you miss the point.
These services operated from Manchester.
Now they operate from Liverpool.
The passengers once had to travel to MAN, now they travel to LPL.
The demand from the area was there, just that the services have moved 35 miles.
Was enough done to stop that happening?
I am only expressing my frustration at having more and more MAN flights moving to LPL.

[Ringwayman]

If the demand was there, why were the services scaled back or withdrawn? Perhaps the demand wasn't there! How many of "our" pulled Ryanair services are now operating out of Liverpool.. Bremen and.. what else? And if the airport favoured one carrier over another wouldn't every other carrier complain until they all get the same deal for reduced airport charges which subsequently leads to the airport getting less revenue to tart up the place where it's needed which is a common theme on here!

[DCS99]

Am sure it's been posted elsewhere, but a quick check of the updated BA site reveals all Shuttles cancelled during the strike.

NFT.

[MUFC_fan]

Was enough done to stop that happening?


Yes. Running an airport is about making money. Simple as. Ryanair were not prepared to pay the charges demanded by MAG so the left. LPL, a smaller competitor, who will charge much less than MAG are more attractive to the likes of Ryanair and easyJet, lessor so to the latter who seem to be trying to attract more higher revenue passengers now a days.

MAG could have a growing FR base at MAN now with jets flying to tons of un-pronounceable destinations across Europe and North Africa. Would MAG be making money? I doubt it...


Am sure it's been posted elsewhere, but a quick check of the updated BA site reveals all Shuttles cancelled during the strike.


A train and a coach can get to Manchester from Heathrow, they can't get to Los Angeles or Singapore for example.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

A train and a coach can get to Manchester from Heathrow ...

Ah yes, but in the case of Virgin Trains in particular, the on-the-day turn up and travel fare is prohibitively expensive for many families. For those who cannot book in advance, is this not still the most expensive rail trunk route in Europe mile for mile?

Coach capacity is very limited unless Cockney Airways plans to charter some coaches itself on behalf of its northern customers. Is this the intention? Or will the MAN punters be abandoned on arrival at LHR as has happened SO OFTEN BEFORE with this airline? I know that a full schedule is impossible, but an effort to run a couple of rotations to rescue the worst affected PAYING customers doesn't seem unreasonable. After all, BA is already boasting to the media about how many services CAN be maintained.

It still amazes me that so many folks continue to book these LHR/LGW connections with the shockingly unreliable MAN Shuttles. But then again, Cockney Airways do seem to have the travel metasearch websites sewn up with their connections appearing ahead of or swamping most other alternatives. Perhaps there are still customers out there who unsuspectingly book the first thing they see or who are locked into archaic company travel policies. If this latest disruption prompts afew more of them to deploy some grey matter when booking from Manchester in the future, some good may yet come of this strike.

By the way, it is interesting that Willie Walsh blames his cabin crew and UNITE for this situation. I suggest that he takes a really good look in the mirror instead.

SHED.

[Skipness One Echo]

but an effort to run a couple of rotations to rescue the worst affected PAYING customers doesn't seem unreasonable.

Has no allowance been made to get people to LHR to catch an operating connection or did they really just point at laugh at the stupid northerners as you are implying? Obviously they sent an email saying *IF* you can get to LHR we'll fly you, if not bugger off? Is that what they did? Is it really?

London to Manchester is a little easier than Amsterdam -London or Warsaw-London, perhaps that was the thinking? Perhaps?

By the way, it is interesting that Willie Walsh blames his cabin crew and UNITE for this situation. I suggest that he takes a really good look in the mirror instead.

Honestly, read the thread on T/Cs in the cabin crew forum on BASSA's unwillingness to make any tangible long term savings in the last 18 months, honestly be informed instead of just reactionary biased!

Manchester - cracking airport, almost zero commercial understanding from some backers though! Dear me.

[TSR2]

I am amazed that BA intend to abandon domestic services during the period of the strike. It is one thing getting to LHR for a flight but what sort of message does this send about the BA 'Hub' to those passengers arriving weary from long haul flights only to be told to find their own way to their final destination.

All it would take is one wet leased B737/A320 sized aircraft (per major domestic destination) to provide a reasonable daily service and I'm sure there are many such aircraft standing idle or underused at this time of year.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi Skipness,

I can't make head or tail of your first paragraph in response to my 01:43 post. What on earth are you on about? Are you suggesting that this answers the points which I made?

As for your "reactionary biased" comment, save your anger for the mainstream media. I have rarely witnessed such one-sided reporting in any dispute. There are two sides to every industrial dispute, Skipness. Gain some 'commercial understanding' yourself and you may come to recognize that one day.

As for your last line, that is contemptible. Mr Skipness - does "zero commercial understanding" apply to everyone who doesn't agree with your every word, by any chance? You should lose the arrogance and read up on good management techniques.

SHED.

[TURIN]

Total change in topic.

Heard a rumour the other day that Etihad are increasing their frequency from MAN. Don't know destination, timings or equipment.

Probably nonsense considering the loads and the change to a 777 this year.

Anyone else heard anything?

[Ringwayman]

All I can think of someone resurrecting Etihad deciding between DUB and MAN for the extra frequency? But as you say, if we've got a jump in capacity there's not much call for more flights to be introduced!

[Ian Brooks]

Manchester actually got more seats than Dublin

Ian B

[Mr A Tis]

Small news but from 03 May SWISS MAN-ZRH upgrades from A319 to A320. All three of the week day services.

[lexxity]

If past form is anything to go by BA regularly abandon their MAN customers. I've worked too many shifts where all you can hear is the PA advising pax to go home and rebook. The lucky few, J/C class thrus will get rerouted but others are left to sort their own problems out.

We don't mind, we're glad to carry their disgruntled pax. :ok:

[ManofMan]

Total change in topic.

Heard a rumour the other day that Etihad are increasing their frequency from MAN. Don't know destination, timings or equipment.

Probably nonsense considering the loads and the change to a 777 this year.

Anyone else heard anything?

Not this summer, the upgrade from the 06th June is +150 pax and thats all they have planned for the moment i believe.

[Betablockeruk]

EY making something of it:

Man City sponsors Etihad special offer to mark 777 aircraft operating to Manchester - Manchester City FC (http://www.mcfc.co.uk/News/Club-news/2010/March/777-arrives-in-Manchester)

A decent marketing effort for a change.

[GEB74]

OltonPete.

Ref:Qatar.

Much of their increasing passenger numbers are destined for Dubai, not Doha or other connections.
They fly with Qatar either for their ridiculously good value advance fares that frequently undercut Emirates by £200+ return in economy, or ever more frequently because Emirates is fully booked and they have to fly with either Qatar or Etihad. With Etihad you have a pain in the butt coach trip to get to Dubai. With Qatar, obviously you get flown there via Doha, hence why Qatar benefits more from Emirates fullness compared to Etihad.

Problem for Qatar is twofold:
The advance cheap seats they are filling to Dubai can't be making them much margin. You can fly with Qatar to Dubai for less than you can fly just to Doha!
When Emirates bring on more capacity (third daily and/or A380), the people 'forced' to fly with them disappear.
Marginal yield and fickle passengers don't make for immediate expansion looking a great idea.
Shame really as their service is first rate in my own experience.

[perkin]

We don't mind, we're glad to carry their disgruntled pax

You also seem to carry a fair number of their commuting crew from LHR to MAN as well, which always strikes me as slightly odd.

Although it pains me to have less space on my commute, it's good to see loads on BMI MAN-LHR-MAN have jumped up in the last few weeks :)

[MAN777]

GEB

I dont agree with your theory that QR will loose out to EK

I have used QR several times over the last few years and in my opinion the service is superior to EK. The passengers transfer all over the QR network and only a few go on to DXB.

We all seem to encourage these middle east airlines, but what we are actually seeing is the end of any possibility of far east, Australian or African carriers returning to MAN. It will be a brave airline that takes on the money of the Gulf carriers.

[GEB74]

MAN777

I'm not saying (and hope Qatar wont) lose out to Emirates.
What I believe is that Qatars options for expansion are limited by the behemoth local competition that is Emirates. (Same goes for Etihad as well)
I'm convinced with their excellent service they can maintain a daily service - just unsure as to whether they can grow any further.

As an aside, many tour operators are now automatically booking their ex:MAN package holiday clients to Dubai via Qatar airways. Obviously this is not for convenience, it's on cost. When Emirates add significant extra capacity (and hence have plenty of spare seats to dump onto the market) these bookings will just vanish for Qatar.

[MUFC_fan]

You can fly with Qatar to Dubai for less than you can fly just to Doha!


Try most airlines, they are exactly the same. They want transfer traffic...

[mybrico]

I think MAN777 makes an important point that the Gulf carriers take away the opportunity for services to Hong Kong, China, India, Australia and Africa etc. They suck up some much of the traffic with cheap fares. The recent SQ decision to go via MUC is driven by less demand because of this competition. People on this board praise these carriers however I am not sure of their value however I guess MAN is now hooked by them since Dubai is now one of the biggest routes and there is no alternative! They provide no competitive advantage for MAN.

[Mr A Tis]

Not sure I agree with you mybrico.
The Gulf carriers are busy precisely because there are no direct longer routes & people have wised up to Big Airways & avoiding LHR.
As for Singapore, the reduction is not based on lack of demand, but tactical manipulation of the UK market ( ie we need to fill our A380s from LHR).
Whilst these Gulf carriers do carry an awful lot to China & HKG, so do Lufthansa, Air France / KLM. Plenty of demand from this area.
There are also plenty of Chinese cargo 747s passing daily through here, some (cargo) of which could be diverted onto pax flights making direct services more viable.

[jubilee]

Change of subject,

Last week we had an early afternoon departure and it took 35 minutes from push back
to reaching the hold at 5L. The reason being the taxi way to the hold was closed part way down for work, so we had to enter the runway and come off again on the other side of the work in progress. Of course this all had to be carried out between landings
and take off,as single runway operation was in force.
Is this long term work or did we just pick the wrong day.
Jubilee

[MUFC_fan]

Spanair launching BHX-MAD.

For all those MAN-MAD 'cherios' (quoting a now very popular and annoying TV show), would MAN not be their first port of call if the traffic was there?!:confused:

[Ringwayman]

Got good news from the BA strike.....we've got a single shuttle service back: BA1398/1405 on the 20th.

[hammerb32]

Mybrico,

I understand you to a point but at least these middle east carriers have been loyal to MAN and to many other regional UK airports where other larger carriers have either turned and run or not taken the gamble to operate the services (SQ at MAN aside). You are probably right on one hand that they will always put off say Cathay starting any sort of service but at least you know they're here to stay and are commited.

[AircraftOperations]

Last week we had an early afternoon departure and it took 35 minutes from push back
to reaching the hold at 5L. The reason being the taxi way to the hold was closed part way down for work, so we had to enter the runway and come off again on the other side of the work in progress. Of course this all had to be carried out between landings
and take off,as single runway operation was in force.
Is this long term work or did we just pick the wrong day.
Jubilee

Think you may have been unlucky, as there was no sign of such work when I flew through on Monday. Maybe it was emergency work.
Maybe early afternoon was chosen due to it being relatively quiet. (Hence the single runway ops, as much as this must have messed things about)

[floreas_wakefieldia]

Last week, one morning (can't remember which day, but I think it was Tuesday or Wednesday), 05L was closed; 05R was therefore single operations. Aircraft were backtracked in between landings and departures. Beautiful configuring by Tower.

But they've been backtracking aircraft on 05L for a while: bringing them on at B to backtrack, vacating them at AE to hold at A1.

[OltonPete]

quote

"would MAN not be their first port of call if the traffic was there?!"

Are there any rumours?

Manchester appears in the Spanair timetable but not the drop-down
booking engine?

There appears to be quite a few destinations in the timetable
which show no frequency and are not in the booking engine either?

Are these connecting flights via a code-share?

Pete

[MUFC_fan]

Are they not BD/LH connections?

[jongeman]

MUFC_Fan

If you look at the press release from Spanair, they say they're filling a gap for MAD services between 'Liverpool and the Watford Gap' (i.e. Luton). Yes, MAN might have been their first port of call, had it not been for U2 at LPL.

[mickyman]

There is a lot of speculation that Ryanair are to operate
the BA shuttle from Manchester over the strike period -
anybody know for sure about this?

MM

[Ringwayman]

It's not speculation. If you go on BA's website and look at the timetable for LGW -MAN, it's there as a Ryanair 737.

[ManofMan]

There is a lot of speculation that Ryanair are to operate
the BA shuttle from Manchester over the strike period -
anybody know for sure about this?

I know 100% for sure, but in all honesty the strike will be called off before it happens anyway.

[Redcap49]

You're absolutely right Ringwayman!
I'm totally amazed by that.I wonder what MOL's propaganda machine will have to say about that if it actally happens.

[Ametyst1]

British Airways has chartered 3 Ryanair Boeing 737-800s to operate domestic flights from London Gatwick to Edinburgh (3 a Day), Glasgow (3 a Day) and Manchester (4 a Day). All three aircraft will night-stop at Gatwick and will be used on 20,21 & 22 March

[DCS99]

Hi Shed-on-a-Pole

Look what you've done mate!

After your excellent recent post about BA ditching the Domestics, they've gone and jumped into bed with the Ryans :):)

Cheers!
PS. Appreciate any direct routings for KLM on Saturday, it's time to come home and stock up at Primark. Don't laugh too loud!

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi DCS99,

Always happy to be of service!

Cheers. SHED.

[TURIN]

I know 100% for sure, but in all honesty the strike will be called off before it happens anyway.

I am 100% sure that statement is wrong. :E:ouch:



It was nice of the BBC this morning to let us know that all BA international flights from MAN will be unaffected. :suspect:

[jubilee]

Code Share Flights.
Jubilee

[ManofMan]

I am 100% sure that statement is wrong.


Yep, got that one wrong, although the 100% bit referred to the RYR sub flights.

[wheelbarrow]

At least during this period of BA D isruption their paxs will be happy to fly on modern state of the art NEW B737-800s rather than the old clapped out -400 bangers.
Sure Willie and Mick party together sometimes seen in Malahide, old friends Im sure from the Rocca days!:):):):)

Ryanair ......... surely the Worlds fav airline these 3 days.

[pwalhx]

As the RYR sub flights are to Gatwick then they are not International

[Bagso]

It was nice of the BBC this morning to let us know that all BA international flights from MAN will be unaffected.


indeed...!

....but God preserve us, at least we didn't see the stock selection of
B737/757s rolling off 24,(yes thats 24 not 23, they are that old.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
As Sport Relief are running the "Shirt of Hurt Campaign" where you wear an opposing teams shirt to raise money for charity maybe we could start a campaign related to BAs use of RYR...

The Planes Of Shame come to mind !
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a more serious note Spanairs announcement of Madrid /Barcelona from BHX and their rationale for choosing BHX underlines exactly what I have been saying.....!

Whilst there "might" be a return/increase of pax on current services as the economy "hopefully" improves, its difficult to see where expansion will come from in the future. I assumed that when RYR set up at Manchester it would stem expansion at Liverpool in favour of Manchester. Now they are even more firmly entrenched it makes the situation even more precarious!

[dwlpl]

They, FR, will be back. Just a question of how much MAG are willing to forego in terms of fees.

[AircraftOperations]

BA does still have an international route from MAN because I flew on it recently..... from Billund.
Sun Air provide the aircraft, and it's often one in BA colours.
That's why it's unaffected.

[BHX5DME]

Whilst there "might" be a return/increase of pax on current services as the economy "hopefully" improves, its difficult to see where expansion will come from in the future. I assumed that when RYR set up at Manchester it would stem expansion at Liverpool in favour of Manchester. Now they are even more firmly entrenched it makes the situation even more precarious!

Manchester doing about the same as LHR, LGW & GLA.

Birmingham - 9,102,960 / 7,013,776 up 29.79%
Heathrow - 66,027,456 / 62,268,292 up 6.04%
Gatwick - 32,392,943 / 30,563,627 up 5.99%
Manchester - 18,724,889 / 17,577,773 up 6.53%
Stansted - 19,957,077 / 9,448,359 up 111.22%
Glasgow - 7,225,021 / 6,813,932 up 6.03%
Luton - 9,120,546 / 5,284,812 up 72.58%
Edinburgh - 9,049,355 / 5,119,258 up 76.77%
East Midlands - 4,658,149 / 2,229,536 up 108.93%
Belfast Int - 4,546,475 / 3,035,907 up 49.76%
Bristol - 5,642,921 / 1,993,331 up 183.09%
Newcastle - 4,587,883 / 2,995,051 up 53.23%
Liverpool - 4,884,494 / 1,304,959 up 274.30%

Whole UK - 218,645,809 / 168,363,000 up 64.80%

[Bagso]

Cheers BHXDME but not sure on the point here ?

Those figures prove nothing in respect of MANs comparison with LHR, LGW both of which are capacity constrained and did not therefore suffer a massive increase and subsequent decrease on the way to those targets.

In addition a lot of new capacity /demand was added albeit in an indirect way by expansion in the South East by Stansted. Certainly pax coming into UK to visit London might now also use STN whereas before they had no choice but to use LHR/LGW.

If you have it, a better trend analysis might be to show those airports at their peak over this period which have sebsequently fallen back. I suspect MAN experienced the greatest year on year increase against its "own" figures followed sadly by an almost identical decline.

One of the most significant elements of your table is the one at the bottom, Liverpool.

I suspect that it was once viewed as irrelevent, perhaps maybe even a minor irritation by MAN but it is now on circa 5m. It has arguably taken market share from MAN, a factor which was possibly disguised but also disregarded in a rapidly rising market.

The "Liverpool" effect may also be significant in culled routes at MAN where margins have fallen because of new services from their.

Long Haul is not a factor here so would be interesting to see how much of our losses are made up be these...any figures anybody ?

[Betablockeruk]

The "Liverpool" effect may also be significant in culled routes at MAN where margins have fallen because of new services from their.

Discussion yesterday revealed that the Manchester Polish community now assume it is 'normal' to trek down the M56 to LPL for trips back home. MAN is no longer in the equation. :(

[Bagso]

Discussion yesterday revealed that the Manchester Polish community now assume it is 'normal' to trek down the M56 to LPL for trips back home. MAN is no longer in the equation.

....yep case in point, re our daily LOT 737 service !

[mickyman]

In the original public enquiry for R2 at Manchester the
predicted growth of aviation in the northwest allowed
both Liverpool and Manchester to benefit.
There was some argument from protesters that this
would not happen to both airports because the projections
for growth were overstated.
It would be interesting to see the projected figures for
Liverpool that were given (by 2010) and how much this
was 'out' by - if atall?
Do I remember rightly that Liverpool was to be the Lo-cost
airporrt of the north whilst Manchester would concentrate
on the other market ie:Long-haul/Legacy ? or is my
memory playing tricks.

To complain about Liverpool 'taking our business' is a little
off given that passengers vote with their feet.I think
Manchester has punched above its weight for far too long
and is now in a reality-check period.The Long-haul market
(as it is now)is quite good for a regional airport.

MM

[TURIN]

Anyone know what the latest start date and schedules are for Biman?

Other websites seem to indicate 28th March but I can't seem to find anything other than rumour.

[BHX5DME]

Bagso

If you have it, a better trend analysis might be to show those airports at their peak over this period which have sebsequently fallen back. I suspect MAN experienced the greatest year on year increase against its "own" figures followed sadly by an almost identical decline.

When 2009 is compared against peak year :-

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=5586452)
Birmingham - 9,102,960 / 9,628,254 (2008) - 5.5% below peak
Heathrow - 66,027,456 / 68,066,028 (2007) - 3.0% below peak
Gatwick - 32,392,943 / 35,216,113 (2007) - 8.0% below peak
Manchester - 18,724,889 / 22,442,855 (2006) - 16.6% below peak
Stansted - 19,957,077 / 23,779,697 (2007) - 16.1% below paek
Glasgow - 7,225,021 / 8,848,755 (2006) - 18.3% below peak
Luton - 9,120,546 / 10,180,734 (2008) - 10.4% below peak
Edinburgh - 9,049,355 / 9,049,355 (2009) - at peak
East Midlands - 4,658,149 / 5,620,673 (2008) - 17.1% below peak
Belfast Int - 4,546,475 / 5,272,664 (2007) - 13.8% below peak
Bristol - 5,642,921 / 6,267,114 (2008) - 10.0% below peak
Newcastle - 4,587,883 / 5,650,716 (2007) - 18.8% below peak
Liverpool - 4,884,494 / 5,468,510 (2007) - 10.7% below peak

Whole UK - 218,645,809 / 241,685,000 (2007) - 9.5% below peak

[AircraftOperations]

Is 23R Cat III now?

Nothing mentioned on the NOTAMs saying otherwise, as far as I can see.

[763 jock]

It is now CAT III. Autolanded on it on Sunday morning due LVP's in force.

[AircraftOperations]

Good stuff. And nice timing!:}

[Hamburg 2K8]

About time.

Right, next item on the agenda - demolish Pier B and build a new Pier capable of handling A380's, is on two levels for departing and arriving passengers and is cleaner, warmer (in the winter), doesn't have horrible looking carpet, decent information screens and comfortable seating.

Think Pier C will need some of the above improvments but maybe without the demolition, it must be cramped when the Emrites flight is in?!

[johnnychips]

Manchester-Rotterdam no longer on Cityjet, or is that old news? Antwerp continues.

[roverman]

No-one seems to have picked up that cargo at MAN during February was 18.5% up on the same month in 2009. This figure has been incorrectly reported in some quarters as a downturn. A trend to growth is emerging, going back to December 2009, and reversing the downturns seen over the last 12-18 months. Cathay are back to 7 or 8 B744Fs a week through MAN, and with the -8F to be on the fleet early next year.

[Ametyst1]

Fly Be has reduced the Manchester to Milan Malpensa service from 2 to 1 flight a day

[Ringwayman]

it's been like that for a while I believe.

[Trash_Hauler]

Fly Be has reduced the Manchester to Milan Malpensa service from 2 to 1 flight a day

Source? As of when?

Oh and by the way, Flybe is ONE word.

[Ringwayman]

The 2nd Milan service (BE7358/7359) looks to have stopped at the beginning of the winter timetable. Source? Airport logs reported on TAS.

[jpthomas72]

Their is now a football charter MUC-MAN by AirBerlin for 7/8th April. This caused theairdb to tell people there is a CGN-MAN (as AirBerlin has very frequent CGN-MUC). Was getting overexited as I thought they'd restart the old TUIFly service. But of course, we have DUS services on LH and BE and Germanwings already.

[TURIN]

Well, the Biman 777 failed to turn up today.:rolleyes: Why am I not suprised?

Lufthansa are laying on a A340-300 for the Bayern Munich team on the 6th March too.

SIA start the 777-300ER via MUC tomorrow.

What's all the scuttlebutt about Emirates making some announcement soon?

[wanna_be_there]

TURIN, the emirates rumour is from another forum (flyertalk). the poster is very accurate with his info (everything he has said has come to fruition regarding services)

He states EK17/18 is the next A380 destination after PEK (recently announced) and that an announcement is due soon. On top of that, EK19/20 is due to be a 3 class B773 from sept, so there is strong speculation that a 3rd daily is also to be annpunced, as an A388 and 3 class B773 combination is actually a reduction of seats at MAN, and we are already maxing out our uplifts as it is.

Like I say, given his timing and accuracy so far, I have no reason to doubt it.


BTW tomorrows SQ is 9V-SWT. I know reggies are frowned upon here but saves people running for it if they dont need it.

[planenutter]

Today I filmed G-VLIP landing at EGCC, at the aviation viewing park, so I thought I would post it on here as a few people might have seen me recording :D

YouTube - 104.AVI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsc4io2QlAw)

[TURIN]

wanna be there

Thanks for that, didn't know about the 773 in Sep. A reduction in seats eh? What time of day would a 3rd flight be do you think? Late morning? :ok:

[Ringwayman]

Any prospective 3rd EK service would be something along the lines of arriving 0620 departing 0900

[MUFC_fan]

I think:

Morning - A330
Lunchtime - A380
Evening - 77W

would work very well for the airline, all being a 3 class. They simply cannot allow SQ take the growing number of F passengers from MAN.

I'm sure the A330 wouldn't be on the route long as well!

[MUFC_fan]

Anybody know the loads from this mornings MUC/SIN service?

F will be interesting to see over the coming months.

[Skipness One Echo]

F will be interesting to see over the coming months.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole F business is intended for the MUC-SIN sector with any MAN punters as an added bonus?

[Going loco]

I thought the received wisdom was that SQ were not selling the F cabin ex-MAN. Based on your last two posts, you obviously have a different view, so perhaps you can enlighten us all.

[Betablockeruk]

Nothing on SQ website stopping you book F class MAN-MUC rtn or MAN-SIN.

[MANFlyer]

They simply cannot allow SQ take the growing number of F passengers from MAN.

I'd love to know what it is you smoke sometimes fella.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole F business is intended for the MUC-SIN sector with any MAN punters as an added bonus.

Correct, despite what people up in the clouds would try and have you believe. At the gate party in Changi last night, listening to the announcements and reading all the signs, you would struggle to know the flight was even going to MAN. It was all about SIN-MUC.

Does anyone want to know how many people were in F inbound to MAN today on SQ328, the inaugural three class service ?. None!. Does anyone want to know how many were in F on todays outbound SQ327, the return inaugural three class service ?. Nada. Zip. There was four in F for SIN-MUC.

In fact on the inbound, I was the only one forward of the second galley on the aircraft. Granted there were a handful more in the second J cabin but it wasn't more than a dozen. However, the crew were pleased to announce that Y was all but full outbound to MUC, until I asked them if they had transported a plane load of English Football fans before. :p

Tranist in MUC was chaotic with a few pax getting lost, not helped by SQ's transit sign pointing the wrong way. But I am sure they will sort it. The stopover is a PITA, but the leg from MUC to MAN is light so you can have a good laugh with the crew, who are in a great mood as they are only doing a day turnaround before two more days off in MUC, just like the old ZRH flights.

I am told that, unlike the old MAN-ZRH-SIN days were we stayed on board in ZRH, we are going to have to get off in MUC outbound, for reasons I am unable to fathom. This won't go down well with some SQ regulars and I can see other airlines benefitting from that.

[MUFC_fan]

I'd love to know what it is you smoke sometimes fella.


Well if what is believe to be happening (EK's worst kept secret), MAN will be going all 3 class. Now only if they plan to introduce a 3rd daily flight would it be actually beneficial to passenger numbers as replacing the to 2 class aircraft with one A380 and a 3 class 77W is a reduction in capacity! They need more capacity - so why go for low capacity aircraft?!:confused:


Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole F business is intended for the MUC-SIN sector with any MAN punters as an added bonus?


Correct. However there is nothing to stop you booking it! The main reason why I think it will be interesting to see whether there is any demand...

[Seljuk22]

Beside the CL matches it's a very interesting city pair.

So there is SQ 5 weekly B77W, LH 3 daily A319/A320 and EZY 6 weekly A319/A320.
If bmibaby will start MAN-MUC too LH could cease operation or/and transfer some flight to WW.
Nothing confirmed yet but it could be real.

[Ringwayman]

I would like to think that LH would not tinker with their MUC service too much, given that they reported just over 2 weeks ago that their overall MAN passenger numbers have been growing every month since October, and with 67% of their pax connecting, to replace a service that enables connections to be made with a point-to-point service might not seem to be the right thing to do.

[mufc4evr]

Just been looking at TASManchester and saw this:

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9657/9vswtsingaporeb777300w2.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/9vswtsingaporeb777300w2.jpg/)

[Mr A Tis]

The Lufthansa MAN-MUC is pretty much full on every flight. The majority of pax are connecting to LHs Asian network from Munich.
There isn't a cat in hells chance of giving it to BMI Baby.

[TURIN]

What was the Rainbow shower on the Virgin 747 today all about? I got a couple of photos on the phone...

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/geebee142/AIRCRAFT/DSC00721.jpg

[wanna_be_there]

Id assume its a captains last flight or something like that, as theres nothing new from VS this year.
Infact we have a reduction this year compared to last, but hey ho, next year could be an increase.
MAN-LAS is in the dropdown menu of virgin holidays, but no dates available to book yet. As seen as VS dont codeshare with anyone on the MAN-LGW route (to book pax MAN-LGW-LAS), and A330's from next year, It may well be a new route.
Unsure of how MCO and BGI will be from 2011 however, so could be one to watch.
On one sense, the A330's will be a good thing for MAN, but if they replace the B744's for them, will be ashame to see the last B747 pax go. (but with such high loads ex MCO, it should remain a B744 route)

[TURIN]

Didn't know Virgin had 330s. What happened to the claim about 4 engines better than 2 etc?

[TSR2]

Virgin Atlantic has on order 10 A330-300. Part of this deal is the cancellation of all outstanding A340-600 aircraft.

[roverman]

The Fire Service water salute was for two of the passengers on board - two of their own returning after rowing across The Pond and raising money for charities. Mad men, but tough and brave mad men. Hats off to you boys.

[MAN777]

Absolute respect chaps, well done.

Firemen back home after 75 days at sea - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1202126_firemen_back_home_after_75_days_at_sea)

[Scottie Dog]

BBC North West News has just announced that Emirates will be operating the A380 into Manchester daily with effect from September. No other details available and nothing on the EK website.

[mufc4evr]

Yes it is on real radio also.

[Nomoresteerage]

Trying to book flights for October on EK shows EK17 and EK18 as the A380-800 service - afternoon departure from MAN.

Evening departure remains 77W

Source: www.emirates.com/uk (http://www.emirates.com/ulk)

NMS.

[Manchester Kurt]

World's biggest plane to operate from Manchester Airport - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1202147_worlds_biggest_plane_to_operate_from_manchester_airp ort)

[ManofMan]

Quoting Mickeyman.....I think
Manchester has punched above its weight for far too long
and is now in a reality-check period

Guess nobody told SQ EK and EY who have all increased capacity ??

[ben_keghead]

Brilliant news for Manchester

[spannersatcx]

The move was hailed by bosses as historic with the airport revealing that it has spent almost £10m on upgrading the airfield and terminal to accommodate the huge aircraft.

What a waste of £10m for 1 a/c.:=

[mickyman]

ManofMan

I was alluding to the overall decline in passenger numbers
experienced at Manchester in the last couple of years.These
numbers should now start heading in the right direction.
This is great news for the airport and flags up the region
on a worldwide platform - plus it drills home the potential
of the regions to perform well for airlines whilst avoiding
the competitive-ness of LHR.BA/BMI having left......

Long may that BE the case.

MM

[ben_keghead]

@ Spannersatcx....What nonsense.

75 passengers extra...per day. Which is a possible 27,375 passengers extra through the course of the year. Many of them spending money in the terminal.

Not to mention the extra fees for landing charges

[MUFC_fan]

What a waste of £10m for 1 a/c.


Is that £10m DIRECTLY for that aircraft, or £10m in the past few months that they can pass off to the media that they have spent it on specifically for the A380?

I have a hunch it is the latter!

Great news! EK's worst kept secret has now been confirmed!

[GavinC]

A380 is excellent news. There's going to be a fair few people who will be looking at this service before any others when booking so that they can fly the big boy. Not saying that many people would necessarily pay more or travel further just to fly it but it wouldn't surprise me if this didn't mean that even more people start their search for flights to Oz/S.E Asia with a look at the Emirates prices on the A380.
Also, whilst both this and the 773 seat 10 a breast in economy, the seats on the A380 are wider which means all passengers will benefit from this change.

Maybe we'll even see the A380 on double daily at some point.

[MUFC_fan]

A380 is excellent news. There's going to be a fair few people who will be looking at this service before any others when booking so that they can fly the big boy.


I think you have hit the nail on the head. People will go out of their way to fly the A380 from MAN, whether 150 extra per day or not, I am not so sure...


Not saying that many people would necessarily pay more or travel further just to fly it but it wouldn't surprise me if this didn't mean that even more people start their search for flights to Oz/S.E Asia with a look at the Emirates prices on the A380.


MAN, along with LHR, is more expensive with EK than any other UK airport. Just check the fares and MAN will be either the same or more than BHX, GLA, LGW and NCL.


Also, whilst both this and the 773 seat 10 a breast in economy, the seats on the A380 are wider which means all passengers will benefit from this change.

Maybe we'll even see the A380 on double daily at some point.


I don't think A380 double daily will be on the cards any time soon! More like it's smaller sister making a morning appearance, which would be more beneficial to the airport.

Maybe when they have A380s coming out of their ears they may introduce the another A380!:ok:

[Turtle controller]

Rumours suggesting A340 not 330 are being considered for am flights. Also extra freight capacity with equipment sourced from a third party a possibility. QR and EY will be under presure and anyone flying South or East of Dubai (not many at mo) will find it ever more difficult.

[Skipness One Echo]

Andrew Cornish, the airport’s managing director, said: “This is an historic moment for this airport and the region we serve.

“The A380 is as iconic as Concorde and her introduction into Manchester by one of our most important carriers, Emirates, will provide a daily reminder that regional airports can support successful long-haul services.”

No it isn't, stop being silly. No one denies regional airports can offer long haul facilities so long as they feed a hub at the other end. Excellent news all the same, however tbh once you get used to it, it doesn't really have much of an impact. It certainly does not have the presence of Concorde and seeing three on the deck at LHR just looks normal.

[barry lloyd]

From a local radio station this afternoon:
"Finance experts are saying that the arrival of the Superjumbo from September will bring millions of pounds into the region."

Since, I'm not a financial expert, can someone explain this to me:confused:

(Before anyone starts, I'm not knocking it, I'm as happy as anyone else in 'the regions' to see this happening - I'm just thinking that it's gilding the lily just a touch...)

[ben_keghead]

Im no financial expert either but here is how I see it.

75 extra seats per day equates to 27,365 extra possible passengers per year to Manchester, who will go on and spend money in Manchesters taxi's, shops, restaurants, and other public attractions around the North West of England.

It is also a possible 27,365 extra passengers leaving Manchester, spending money in the terminal and travel agents for people wishing to travel to all corners of the globe, via Dubai.

This is how I see it. Any extra seats coming into MAN from whatever destination...has to be a good thing for the local economy

[Random Flyer]

Fantastic news and well done Manchester! :ok:

This is how I see it. Any extra seats coming into MAN from whatever destination...has to be a good thing for the local economy

Exactly! How anyone can see more capacity as bad news I don't know. :)

[DomyDom]

Air Berlin will once again fly to Manchester as they launch flights from Manchester to Munich on 31 March. They will fly three times per week for the remainder of 2010:)

[Skipness One Echo]

Exactly! How anyone can see more capacity as bad news I don't know.

Because it detroys yields if you're not careful and no one makes money. The problem with the A380 is that it's really popular, and people love flying on it. It's quite ugly but that's another story....why is this bad?

Better CASM = cheaper seats and lower fares, which cannot be matched by the competition. Hence given that Singapore has just stepped back from a direct service to a less than useful stopping service via MUC even BEFORE you connect in Singapore, I suspect I know who'll suffer and it won't be Emirates.

It just shows who's making the running at MAN.

[barry lloyd]

It is also a possible 27,365 extra passengers leaving Manchester, spending money in the terminal and travel agents for people wishing to travel to all corners of the globe, via Dubai*.

Well that assumes all those extra seats are filled of course, and I don't think you'd find me flying to 'all corners of the globe'. Asia, Australasia, East/South Africa and obviously the ME, but that still leaves a lot of world untouched.

*Which is precisely why I wouldn't be spending my hard-earned cash at Manchester. DF's are much cheaper in Dubai, and you can of course buy on arrival.

[mickyman]

Skipness One Echo

It amazes me that Emirates can fill two triple sevens a day from
Manchester let alone fill a 380+.All these passengers would have
to travel through Hellrow if it wasnt for this airlines support of the
regions of England.
Yields must be satifactory or else this move does not make sense.

The 380 will probably be the only 'super-jumbo' ever to be built so
(like Concorde) it is Iconic.Im sorry to read that your familiarity
with the aircraft has left you a little underwelmed.

MM

[TSR2]

75 extra seats per day equates to 27,365 extra possible passengers per year to Manchester, who will go on and spend money in Manchesters taxi's, shops, restaurants, and other public attractions around the North West of England.

More than likely the extra 27,365 extra passengers into Manchester are UK residents returning, having previously been outbound passengers. Therefore no big local spending spree.

[Mr A Tis]

Domy Don

The Air Berlin MUC-MAN is a one off 7 April & return MAN-MUC 8 April, purely for the football at Old Trafford.
No new service, unless you have better information than that.

[ZOOKER]

Will the 23R ILS be CAT3 when the jet-powered 'Deux Ponts' commences operation? :E
Typical Manchester Airport.. Lots of publicity and spin when the service starts.
Nothing heard when the service is withdrawn 9 months later.
egs
QANTAS
Gulf Air
South African
Austrian
Alitalia
Malev.
Cathay pax
etc, etc.
A 'Cornish Wafer'? NOT ARFF! :}

[Ringwayman]

Seeing that they've been operating 2 daily since 2003, any withdrawal of the A380 will see EK17/18 revert back to 77W. And then we can start talking the 3rd daily service. Or the alternate scenario....they keep plodding along with the 3-class A380 pending the arrival of the 2-class A380.

[wanna_be_there]

I assume this means that the Airbus House A380 will be making an apperance at MAN sometime before the EK launch?
ZRH, BOS, LHR, SYD etc all had to have it in to test the airport, and before you say it was purely publicity, the BOS visit wasnt widely known about until the dunlops hit the tarmac.
Also, I know we had a flypast a few years ago, but weve had a new ILS installed since then, and given we are going to be one of the smallest airports to see a regular A380, Id have thought they may want to make sure everything runs smoothly.
We will have to wait until stand 12 is complete however, otherwise the visit will be pointless.

[wanna_be_there]

Also to add, the A380 is now in the online timetable of emirates.com. Stating arrival time of 12:25, departure time of 14:10. (I would expect this time to be altered though, as with the taxiing shennanigans, it could take up to 15 minutes each way to get to/from the gate/runway as it is)

Its not been loaded into the actual booking engine as of yet though.

EK17/18 will offer First (private suites), business and Economy, EK19/20 will still offer just Business and economy. No upgrade to a 3 class B777 as suggested, which is very sensible in my opinion.

[doublesix]

Zooker
See post 3146 re the ILS (Keep up).

[PQC]

Think that you might find that this investement will enable other possible services / carriers to come to MAN. Once you are Code F capable, you are Code F capable - end of!

[AUTOGLIDE]

I don't see the fuss over 1st class. Most of the people who can afford to use it don't anyway. It's no longer much of a measure anymore. QFA are even removing it completely, times are changing, and most J class offerings have made F class obsolete.

[MUFC_fan]

EK17/18 will offer First (private suites), business and Economy, EK19/20 will still offer just Business and economy. No upgrade to a 3 class B777 as suggested, which is very sensible in my opinion.


I would agree that it is a sensible decision in terms of passenger numbers as swapping the evening service for a 3 class aircraft would end up seeing an overall reduction in capacity which would obviously then mean a 3rd daily needed.

However, do EK operate any other route with a mixed service, as in one flight is 3 class and one is 2 etc? I can't think of any and for that reason I think it will change and an A330 (or A343 as mentioned) could end up filling in the gap in capacity.

If there are any destinations that have two or more flights with different cabins (F/J/Y v J/Y) then I apologise as I cannot think of any.

[Skipness One Echo]

Yields must be satifactory or else this move does not make sense.


Other airline's yields Mickeyman, other people's will suffer as Emirates can drive down costs due to the high number of seats on a very modern aeroplane. This has nothing to do with Heathrow, as has been stated many times, no one douobts the regions can support long haul so long as they hub at the non UK end.

Can we stop wittering on about First please? There's barely a market in London anymore never mind Manchester....

[MUFC_fan]

Other airline's yields Mickeyman, other people's will suffer as Emirates can drive down costs due to the high number of seats on a very modern aeroplane.


The beauty of capitalism and the competitive nature that a mixed/open economy craves...

[Betablockeruk]

Just looking into the cargo situ, re EK, and EK17/18 only on SkyCargo schedule until 31 Aug. EK19/20 no change.

Waiting for system update or more news to come?

[MUFC_fan]

Looks like they are to operate a 517 seater aircraft on the DXB run - does anyone know how this configuration will differ from the others?

[Ian Brooks]

Doesn`t have the long range crew beds


Ian B

[TURIN]

Why would EK operate a 340 on MAN-DBX??

That makes no sense at all.

The 3rd daily is a dead duck now. Move on.

[MUFC_fan]

Doesn`t have the long range crew beds


Thanks.


Why would EK operate a 340 on MAN-DBX??

That makes no sense at all.


1. It's DXB...
2. Layover time
3. Cargo
4. Extra capacity
5. Better connections


The 3rd daily is a dead duck now.


Unlike many carriers, EK has the facilities to invest and believes in the regions (NCL is the most brightest of jewels for that argument) and where capacity is needed, they will deliver nine times out of ten.

If MAN needs MORE than 150 extra seats per day, then I am pretty sure that EK will deliver. I don't expect it in the short term, but medium wouldn't surprise me.

Also, could anybody explain the cargo variations between the 77W and A380? Thanks

[Skipness One Echo]

The beauty of capitalism and the competitive nature that a mixed/open economy craves...

Given that most guys on here welcome a large variety of tails lined up at T2 it has an inherent danger here. It was the same capitalism that created the Alliances which saw QANTAS, Air Canada and Cathay disappear without losing the ability to carry passengers from MAN. Great for the travelling public though.

EK has the facilities to invest and believes in the regions (NCL is the most brightest of jewels for that argument)

This is a commonly applied attribute which has no basis in commercial relaity. Emirates don't believe in the regions, they carry passengers from them to their hub, as do BA, BMI, KLM, Air France and Lufthansa. The only difference is that the hub is a little further afield and so the aircraft is bigger, hence the excitement in the trouser department and shrieks of "Blimey look at the size of that one." I can't believe you're being so romantic about a open-ended, bottomless pit, funded foreign company.

[OltonPete]

MUFC

The first few EK 380's delivered were 489 seats and mainly destined for
the longer flights (YYZ/SYD etc). This is the same F & J layout as the
517 but less economy. Note the EK website does now mention a 600
seat two class HD density (but not on offer yet).

Apparently they already have at least three 517 seat aircraft in 14/76/427
config and they operate mainly the LHR & Saudi routes (probably CDG aswell).
I know Heathrow do in fact get a mix and I am sure a 489 seater is en route
CDG now but you need to know reggies to be sure which ones are which.

Three out of the next five to be delivered are 517 configs per another
forum.

In spotters there is a post stating the 13th EK 380 has now flown.

Pete

[MUFC_fan]

Given that most guys on here welcome a large variety of tails lined up at T2 it has an inherent danger here. It was the same capitalism that created the Alliances which saw QANTAS, Air Canada and Cathay disappear without losing the ability to carry passengers from MAN. Great for the travelling public though.


Completely agree with the latter, great news for the public.

However, in the long term, if EK do push out a lot of the carriers it will become more of a monopoly going East than a competitive market.

With QR, EY, BA, AY, LH, AF, KL, SK, SQ etc. still at the airport, I cannot see that happening any time soon...

[wanna_be_there]

The main one to look out for is a cargo service.
This is the first time in years that the EK17/18 has prioritised PAX rather than cargo space (in terms of even if the pax loads were light, cargo made up the defecit), and as said earlier, you cant book cargo space on that service after 31st Aug.

EK love thier cargo operations in the UK, so I would fully expect a 3-4 weekly skycargo service to be announced on the back of this, but we will have to wait and see.

[Skipness One Echo]

SQ etc. still at the airport

I think this will be the one to watch actually.

[Frankfurt_Cowboy]

"bottomless pit, funded foreign company."

Think you'll find that the pit is very much bottomed, and they know it.

[EGCC4284]

Any plans of a 380 starting service into Man at all

[mickyman]

Skipness One Echo

'Other airline's yields Mickeyman, other people's will suffer as Emirates can drive down costs due to the high number of seats on a very modern aeroplane. This has nothing to do with Heathrow, as has been stated many times, no one douobts the regions can support long haul so long as they hub at the non UK end.'

This is very true but as MUFC_fan states:

'The beauty (sic) of capitalism and the competitive nature that a mixed/open economy craves...'

'SQ etc. still at the airport....'

'I think this will be the one to watch actually.'

I agree and the clock is ticking on SQ.....
As to the illusion of hubs and spokes its all a matter of scale.

MM

[Skipness One Echo]

As to the illusion of hubs and spokes its all a matter of scale.

Er....Emirates is a hub airline and Dubai is probably not an illusion. I hope.

btw Looks way better if you use the second from right Quote options when replying. Looks better and is easier to read

Any plans of a 380 starting service into Man at all
No this will never ever happen. Ever.

[mickyman]

Skipness One Echo

Thanks for the tip.....

MM

[HXdave]

Actually, manchester airport website confirming A380 from 01/09/10 at manchester, coupled with EK website showing A380 on schedules page (although not yet showing bookable on dates i have entered!)

[Suzeman]

From Monday's MEN.

Not created much comment on the MEN website one way or another about BA abandoning the regions - most of the chit chat is about the rights and wrongs of the strike.

Suzeman

Opinion: Angela Epstein

March 29, 2010
Just wondered if anyone actually gives a damn about the British Airways strike? Sorry, let me rephrase that. Does anyone give a damn about British Airways ?

Sympathies, of course, if you’ve already been affected by the industrial action. Particularly following news that more than half of British Airways’ flights from Manchester to Heathrow have been cancelled over the coming days. Unfortunately strikers are unlikely to care about jeopardising work trips or hard earned holidays.

But to my mind British Airways long ago junked its chances of trading on jingoistic affection to garner support for our so-called national carrier. Particularly if you live in Manchester and the provinces. After all, aside from hopping passengers to London, BA hardly use our major international airport at Manchester to offer Northerners direct contact to the world.

Let’s set aside for a moment the mean-spirited tacticians who intend to create maximum damage with the four-day walkout by cabin crew over the coming Easter weekend. Or that fact that the country is just emerging from a savage recession where the perk-laden pleasures of BA staff - whatever their pay and working conditions - would hardly seem a cause for national mourning.

Let’s even, if we can, briefly park concerns over the rise of a new militant Left, so clearly reflected in the stranglehold manoeuvres of the UNITE operatives behind the strike.

And instead, let’s dwell on whether any of us care any more about flying the flag, particularly in Manchester.

Certainly, the patriotic argument doesn’t wash. Remember, this was an airline which happily spent £60m blotting out the Union Jack and replacing it with ethnic tail fin art – only to resurrect the flag after it proved to be a public relations disaster (even at the launch, Lady Margaret Thatcher draped her handkerchief over an offending model).

This isn’t an airline that proudly reflects the needs of the country it represents. It’s a now privatised concern that grabs its money where it can. And in doing so it has become so London-centric that it spares little thought for how it can connect those of us who may not want a Heathrow stopover.

What’s startling about the belligerent UNITE trouble stirrers is that they’ve overlooked the fact that most us of choose an airline because of convenience and cost. We surf the internet and find the best deal we can - happily making use of the endless budget airlines available. OK, so you may have to pay for the steam off your cuppa and if you sit next to anyone with an extra ounce of body fat, you’re sunk. But if it’s cheap and direct, it’s a potent argument over some expensive crawl via London.

So my commiserations if you were supposed to fly BA this weekend. But this airline long ago shot itself in the foot. It has shown little loyalty to Manchester so I see no reason why we need to show it back.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Reports on the 'Rumours and News' forum indicate that SKYSERVICE has ceased operations. Several leased aircraft have recently returned from Canada to MAN (or will do so shortly) ready for Summer programmes with our based charter carriers. Three early concerns arise from this. Firstly, has Skyservice paid all its fees to TCX etc.? Secondly, were any of Skyservice's own aircraft/crews contracted to join the UK charter fleets this Summer (and what happens now?). Thirdly, and perhaps the biggest worry, where will the surplus UK charter fleet earn its keep in Winter 2010/11?

Commiserations to all those affected.

P.S. Good article by Angela Epstein there, Suzeman.

[MAN777]

Angela

Whoever you are, well said, I think you have summed up the opinion & feelings of most of us from up north:ok:

[mickyman]

Apart from the oxymoron.......

Lady.....................Thatcher !!!

MM

[PQC]

Agree with most of what has been posted here. Would we mourn the passing of HA? Maybe in the short-term it might affect throughput at MAN, but in the long term I am sure that the independent, non-flag carriers that MAN has always depended on would more than fill the gap. :)

[TURIN]

Quote:
Why would EK operate a 340 on MAN-DBX??

That makes no sense at all.

1. It's DXB...
2. Layover time
3. Cargo
4. Extra capacity
5. Better connections



The point I was trying to make is what advantage does an A340 have over the A330 on a MAN-DXB?

I am genuinely confused. :confused::ok:

[wanna_be_there]

admittedly from MAN, I doubt there would be a difference in an A330 operating compared to an A340 (at just over 7 hours both types are fully capable).
I know EK have shifted their A345's off the ULH routes, and now operating shorther sectors, so, they could be used.
The A332 is more of a route opener, eg PRG, NCL, MAD etc, so makes more sense for EK to concentrate the A332 on the 'unproven' markets, and use the A340's on 'proven' markets like MAN.
Wonder whos going to get our B777 now?

[TURIN]

Think we're talking at cross purposes here.

Someone on this thread suggested that EK would set up a 3rd daily to DXB using an A340.

[MUFC_fan]

The point I was trying to make is what advantage does an A340 have over the A330 on a MAN-DXB?


The A333 is certainly going to have a lower CASM but I am unsure of the cargo loads on each craft.

I think the only way an A343 would be used is simply if it fits into the aircraft's downtime where the extra MAN service would be needed.

[Manchester Kurt]

New York flights from Manchester back on as routetakes-off again - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1202669_new_york_flights_from_manchester_back_on_as_routetak esoff_again?rss=yes&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+menews%2Fnews+%28News+-+Manchester+Evening+News+-+RSS+Feed%29)

[Bagso]

RE M.E.N.

"Andrew Cornish, the airport's managing director, spoke of his delight at the new routes, saying the destinations had 'significant demand' from the North West region"


What he should be saying is there is significant demand from what is by any measure Britains "second city" .....as well as the North Of England !

Although I guess we s/b thankful we didnt get the "Heathrow Of The North Quote"

PS...Hope the EK is sustained, as somebody with no love for MAG this is actually great news, and credit where credit is due, there cannot be many "second cities" served by the 380, so for a short time let us rejoice......!

Just hope its not a short-lived crew training service, eventually lost when they expand their network elsewhere.

....and yes surely a 4 a week cargo would work !

[MUFC_fan]

PS...Hope the EK is sustained, as somebody with no love for MAG this is actually great news, and credit where credit is due, there cannot be many "second cities" served by the 380, so for a short time let us rejoice......!

Just hope its not a short-lived crew training service, eventually lost when they expand their network elsewhere.


It is certainly the first regional airport in the world to get the A380 (could argue that MEL is regional), I don't know how we class secondary cities, whether non-capital or smaller than a certain size. Certainly the only airport with an A380 when flying less than 20m passengers per annum.

I doubt it will be short lived, it has been in the pipeline for some time and as flights have been near enough full throughout the recession, I can only see demand growing as the economy does...

Liverpool Daily Post.co.uk - News - Liverpool News - Easyjet demands John Lennon Airport security investment (http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2010/04/02/easyjet-demands-john-lennon-airport-security-investment-92534-26160699/)


“How come Manchester airport doesn’t have to put press releases out saying come early because there’s a problem? It is time to look after the customer.”


Not very often that MAN is mentioned in an LPL related statement...

[TartinTon]

What he should be saying is there is significant demand from what is by any measure Britains "second city" .....as well as the North Of England !

That'll be apart from the official measure which puts Manchester at 9th then.......

Birmingham is officially the UKs second city...not catchment...city.....

City Population
London 7.2 Million
Birmingham 992000
Leeds 720000
Glasgow 560000
Sheffield 512000
Bradford 467000
Edinburgh 450000
Liverpool 440000
Manchester 420000

[MUFC_fan]

TartinTon,

That is exactly my point. How do you measure city size?

Certainly for population size, Birmingham is number 2, however, in terms of the economy, Manchester would certainly fall into second which in business terms (we are dealing with airlines here) is certainly more important.

It is better to have 1 million people on £100 than 5 million on £10...

[rudolf]

The City of Manchester, I agree is quite small! But Greater Manchester (which I accept is technically a county), has a population of around 2.5 million which is about the same as the West Midlands.

[Bagso]

The key phrase is by any "sensible measure"......

Yes Birmingham has the second largest population in UK but as MUFC suggests that hardly matters anymore !

If that population has limited investment and resouces it is constrained by its own inertia.

It is all about the economic, musical, sporting, recreational, artistic, and cultural mix which that population and visitors have the opportunity to enjoy !

The harsh reality is that Birmingham is simply another regional city. It does not compare to Manchester in any way shape or form......

I am prepared to be swayed as I have only ever driven through it or round it as there is no appetite to actually visit, why would there be ?

By way of example Manchester is the largest economic centre outside London AND one of the largest in Europe , it has the largest residential tower in the UK, the largest student campus in Europe proving how vibrant the city and its confines are, the largest number of theatres and restaurants outside London, the largest Shopping centre outside London, the largest indoor arena in the UK, a number of world class "Open" golf courses within 45 minutes, at least 1 world class football stadia and a team known thoughout the world......within 1 hour we have some of the best coutryside in the UK, The Lake District, Peak District, Chester and North Wales.

It's THOSE factors that makes Manchester the "true second UK city" and also an international centre for a multitude of activities.

Other than the NEC I genuinely have no idea how Birmingham could compete?

[MancRy]

It's an argument that goes on and on across many forums that cover very different topics/industries.

Manchester (as in the Manchester City Council area) is relatively small. However you do have Tameside, and Trafford which are very Mancunian and where people refer to themselves as being Mancunian. Furthermore, there aren't any major commercial centres that people in these areas identify as being "town". Droylsden, Audenshawe, Denton etc are all very much in Manchester but not the Council area. Similar to the fact that Westminster isn't in the City Of London. Similarly, whilst many Salford people won't refer to themselves as Mancunian Salford is even more a suburb of Manchester than even Trafford. Thats despite Salford having City status. By the same token, there are parts of Rochdale and Bury council areas (e.g Middleton) which are distinctly Manc and where people regard themselves as such.

Then you have anomolies such as the Trafford Centre which everyone knows and refers to as being in Manchester. Yet if we quoted the City Council area, it wouldn't be. The same goes for Old Trafford.

Granted, areas of Greater Manchester such as Stockport, Oldham and Bolton are different towns and so the argument isn't quite as strong. That said places like Oldham and Stockport are becoming ever closer in many ways these days. By contrast, Bolton seems too large itself to be part of Manchester and Wigan doesn't border the Manchester City Council area at all.

Either way, Greater Manchester is a great conurbation but the actual City of Manchester is not always very easy to define and simply referring to the council area figures isn't very accurate.

[MUFC_fan]

In the case of this forum, demand for air travel is far greater in the North West than the Midlands.

It doesn't matter whether the CITY of Manchester is bigger, smaller, fatter, taller than Birmingham - for goodness sake - Manchester Airport isn't even in Manchester if we are being that pedantic!

MAN's main market comes from Manchester, Liverpool, Cheshire, Lancashire and Yorkshire with passengers coming from as far as Glasgow and Edinburgh on the train - not just the CITY of Manchester.

[Turtle controller]

The "which is the second city" debate is irrelevant (and slightly boring as it goes round in circles for ever and ever). In aviation terms as MUFC fan states MAN is easily second which may be down to the many reasons listed in the posts or simply that BHX is too close to London.

Changing subjects slightly - Does anybody think MAN will have 4 daily services to New York come November? At best they may retain 3 airlines at reduced frequencies or will AA and DL completely withdraw for the winter?

[MUFC_fan]

I have a feeling that over the summer all three alliances will have a good run but come the winter I would be surprised if there is more than a Star Alliance influence.

AA are pretty much going to walk come the winter as the aircraft is more profitable on the Mexico/Caribbean runs (a la Boston) but I am not so sure about Delta...

[hammerb32]

Not wishing to turn the thread into a city v city debate but to give a little balance. Economically PwC and KPMG state the West Midlands is still the 2nd biggest economic centre in England, don't forget it's still home and base to major multi-nationals such as Cadbury, Jaguar/Land Rover etc, that said it is an economy in decline, whereas the north west is an economy that until the recession was in growth and has suffered a much less steep decline during the recession. In sporting terms and this may surprise Brum is the first city, more international sporting events are held in Brum than in any other UK city, London 2nd and Sheffield 3rd. In cultural terms it will always depend on your tastes, can't really pull the 2 apart, of course the North West has a very rich musical heritage. In terms of the media industry hands down Gtr Manchester is the 2nd city, no debate to be had, indeed I'd be surprised if Brum even came in the top 5 in terms of media.

In terms of the airline and airport industry, which is why most of us are here, again hands down Manchester is the 2nd city to London but comparing the 2 airports is apples and pears, BHX is a hub by and large for the West Mids, MAN is the hub for the north of England and a very good hub by the way for all the stick it gets sometimes.

As stated at the top not trying to turn this into an argument and in reality I don't think there's much between the 2 cities, both have highs and lows and for the record I visit Manchester on a very regular basis and do love the place, but no place like home though as they say....

[MancRy]

As for MAN's position...... I think the airport covers such a large area that parts are in City of Manchester along with Stockport and maybe even Trafford and Cheshire?

[Rhayader]

Birmingham will never compete with Manchester or London airports as it is caught in the 'couple of hours' mindset. Most people will travel for a couple of hours to access an airport. MAN and LHR fall into that catagory from the West Midlands. Where BHX excels is as a gateway airport to bigger hubs. Some of the cheapest fares I have found and bought over the last couple of years have been from BHX to the USA, South Africa and the West Indies using the KLM/NW/AF group through Schipol or CDG, both relatively civilised compared to LHR.

[MUFC_fan]

Birmingham will never compete with Manchester or London airports as it is caught in the 'couple of hours' mindset. Most people will travel for a couple of hours to access an airport. MAN and LHR fall into that catagory from the West Midlands. Where BHX excels is as a gateway airport to bigger hubs.


Very true.


Some of the cheapest fares I have found and bought over the last couple of years have been from BHX to the USA, South Africa and the West Indies using the KLM/NW/AF group through Schipol or CDG


Again, correct.


both relatively civilised compared to LHR.


Have you been through T5? People complain about having to transfer through LHR but when BA are involved it has now become more welcoming than AMS and FRA. For me anyway!

But I would agree, any other terminal and it's poor.