MANCHESTER - 7

[one11]

the UK works

Fooled me..........

[Playamar2]

Posted on another site is the main reason why no diversions being accepted.

LOW STOCKS OF DE-ICING FLUID

The Airport only has enough to maintain its own services, should the weather not improve. This may be seen as good management in the circumstances, but how the Airport got into this situation, when other airports have plenty of stocks is not.

[simonchowder]

Im amazed companies such as aviance, swissport etc actually manage to recruit and retain people the pay and conditions are dire, your far better off on the check out at aldi, in fact whole industry seems gets away with paying peanuts, in general the only people who seem to be well rewarded are pilots, licensed engineers, and ATC ,i know these people are highly qualified but the gap between those groups and the rest appears very wide

[MAN777]

If everyone is cutting back, how come BHX managed to handle 30+ diverts OK, a few days ago ?

The airport are not really in control anymore, there are too many other companies who's lack of resources are having a detrimental effect on the overall efficiency of the airport. Where will it end ?

I think when companies take over handling and concessions within the airport, there should be exacting standards and levels of service imposed on them, maybe with a financial penalty when they dont deliver ?

Manchester consistantly wins travel awards so it must be doing something right 90% of the time but see what happens when you let the guard down !

I understand that Gatwick are having much worse problems, is it right that BAA LHR took away a load of snow clearing equipment just prior to the sell off, or is that a wicked rumour :)

"LOW STOCKS OF DE-ICING FLUID"

Is that aircraft or runway de-ice

[42psi]

Folks ... I don't think de-icing stocks play any part in decisions on diversions.

If the runway/taxiways are open you can accept diversions - if they're not you can't.

Diversions use the same taxiways & runway as the planned movements.

You don't use more or less de-icing fluid - you use what's needed to ensure the surface is clear & servicable.

The number of movements is actually irrelevent - although personally I think more movements is better ..... all that engine heat must help surely....



ps .... I'm afraid much of the rumors about running out of de-icing stocks seem to come about from adding 2 +2 and getting 6 and 7/8.....

Someone asks someone where the de-ice rig has gone and is told it's run out ... rumor starts ....

Had they been told ... it's used up all it's 12,000 litres and gone off to re-fill they may not have jumped to the wrong conclusion.

That's not to say stocks may get low at times, but as with anything you need regular supplies if your using a lot.

Same story with the granules ... "run out" usually means more are needed to be brought airside from stores and the time consuming job of going around filling all the yellow bins done - guess what the volunteer firemen were doing yesterday .... thanks guys :ok:


That's not to say that stocks may not get low or that the world stays happy if supppliers suddenly start running short or have delivery problems.

Seems to be a peculiarly British trait to want to hear how it's all going wrong.


God luck .. and lets hope it's still all smiles on Monday :)

[Ian Brooks]

Dread to think how much de-icer has been used over the last few weeks and when
look back met office predicted a warm wet winter therefore the companies plan their spend on that, it`s like supermarkets who ask for a long range weather forcast to plan their buying for things like BBQ and what ever in summer. It can go spectacularly wrong if you don`t get the right info and can cost a lot of money
I was told yesterday that one of the councils in this area had a large supply of grit and was then told wasn`t going to be a bad winter sold quite a bit to another and this has now come back and given them a very large bite on the bum.

Ian B

[AndyH52]

Sorry 42psi but I have to disagree in so far as it's no good accepting diversions if you have insufficient de-icing material to allow them to depart later in the day. You just end up with stands blocked by aircraft that can't go anywhere because the aircraft themselves can't be de-iced.

[Ian Brooks]

Dread to think how much de-icer has been used over the last few weeks and when
look back met office predicted a warm wet winter therefore the companies plan their spend on that, it`s like supermarkets who ask for a long range weather forcast to plan their buying for things like BBQ and what ever in summer. It can go spectacularly wrong if you don`t get the right info and can cost a lot of money
I was told yesterday that one of the councils in this area had a large supply of grit and was then told wasn`t going to be a bad winter sold quite a bit to another and this has now come back and given them a very large bite on the bum.

Ian B

[42psi]

Sorry 42psi but I have to disagree in so far as it's no good accepting diversions if you have insufficient de-icing material to allow them to depart later in the day. You just end up with stands blocked by aircraft that can't go anywhere because the aircraft themselves can't be de-iced.



Sorry Andy .... I guess I guess I should have made it clearer...

I'm talking about the airfield ... runway(s), taxiways etc.

A/C de-ice is down to the handling agents who carry out that function.

I have no idea how what the situation is with a/c anti-ice fluids.

But if that were true it might explain why there's apparently no appetite from the handling agents for diversions.



There is annother interesting side debate which could follow on from this.

Is the highly competitive handling environment a positive or negative influence in arriving at these situations?

[Playamar2]

The low stocks are of anti-icing fluid for runway, taxiway & stands. These are the Airports responsibility. That is why no snow clearing was taking place earlier in the day as stated by MAN777 in his post on the subject, and only a limited number of taxiways/runway exits are available.

[mrmagooo]

Simon Chowder,

In relation to your post there is a big pay gap between Engineers, Pilots & ATC to dispatchers/handlers/ tug drivers check in staff etc etc etc.

Theres is a bloody good reason for this. When you have spent thousands on becoming a pilot, years becoming an atco or sat over 12 exams to become an engineer, where any 1 little mistake by any of these people can cause death then its hardly surprising there is such a gulf in payscales...........

[Dr Illitout]

Well said mrmagooo!!!!!!
The ground staff all tend forget that bit!!!


Rgds Dr I (L.A.E.)

[The96er]

Theres is a bloody good reason for this. When you have spent thousands on becoming a pilot, years becoming an atco or sat over 12 exams to become an engineer, where any 1 little mistake by any of these people can cause death then its hardly surprising there is such a gulf in payscales...........

mrmagooo - I've think you've miss understood what the poster was saying - no one was suggesting that that ATCO's, Engineers and Pilots shouldn't be well compensated, more of the fact that people who carry out other functions working for a handling company are paid only just above minimum wage, and yes, there other responsible jobs out there such as load planning and producing loadsheets, a function which the industry now classes as about, lets say £15K/YEAR !!

[mrmagooo]

Load planning and producing load sheets are areas Im not too familiar with but my understanding is the handling agent staff do it and hand it to the captain for his approval. Please do correct me if I am wrong.......

Also if the document is overlooked by the pilot then isnt he or she who is certyfing the document by signing and accepting it??

A responsible job but how long is the training to be able to carry out such jobs? A mech for an airline will be on not too much more than a dispatcher and yet has to do some real crap jobs, after a 4 year apprenticeship on less than 15k

I have mechs who work under me on shift and some not all, do not realise the pressure as a LAE, either on a routine A check or during/after a defect when everybody is looking at you to fix it yesterday....... Yes we do sit around and drink alot of tea, but very few people see the work we actually do.

At the end of the day if you start paying the lower paid staff more with not as much responsability as pilots/atcos/laes we will want more money too..... Its life

[simonchowder]

Wind yer neck in magoo, pilots / licensed engineers/ ATC are highly skilled people who carry a lot of responsibilty and deserve every penny they earn however there also plenty of are other groups in aviation who also do demanding and very often very responsible tasks but for whom the industry appears to think they deserve little more than the minimim wage thats all im saying .

[Ian Brooks]

Perhaps MAN is being very cautious with which taxyways it opens, just read Nurembourg has had 2 accidents this week with aircraft slipping off the taxyways at slow speed which in both cases caused the closing of the airport for several hours
and a lost of work to recover aircraft

Ian

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Just a point to add to this discussion and to point out that 42psi has made some very good posts.
A/C de-icing fluid also l am told is in short supply and not only at MAN.
Maybe the handling agents who have to accept the diversion, might be saying yes we will handle you but you will not get de-iced.
The handling agents keeping what stock they have to cover their scheduled commitments.
I as an airline l would be well p***ed off if you turned round and told me that l can't de-ice your a/c because l had been de-icing every Tom Dick and Harry the last few days.

[RoyHudd]

21000 litres to de-ice a widebody at MAN. Unnecessary but highly profitable. Investigation is underway for excessive administration of de-icing fluids at MAN in the past 4 days.The whole matter stinks.

[penelope]

The really amazing thing is that it has taken MAN 10 years to realise this!
Did they think all these passengers really wantedto go to FRA,AMS,CDG,LHR for holidays!
Or did they think they might be connecting to other flights? perhaps not.
Penny
X

[simonchowder]

21000 litres? bearing in mind they charge the airlines around three quid a litre thats a fair old wedge :eek:

[The96er]

De-icing can cost upto £7/litre depending on the fluid and mix used. 21,000 does sound a bit excessive though - I suspect there are one too many zero's there. I dispatched a 737 a few days ago and 1860 litres were used for that, which, I'm told is quite a lot for a 737.

[Trash_Hauler]

I watched them use almost 1300 litres on a Dash last week! I know because I say the chit and the captain thought that the 1 in front of the 300 must have been a mistake. Airline Services it would seem do not adhere to the old philosophy of de ICING and not de SNOWing as they dont have a brush in the bucket! That's one way to make a wedge!

[Curious Pax]

21000 litres to de-ice a widebody at MAN. Unnecessary but highly profitable. Investigation is underway for excessive administration of de-icing fluids at MAN in the past 4 days.The whole matter stinks.

You've got a bit obsessed with MAN over the last 12 months Roy - will they not let you through security with vinegar for your chips when you pass through?

But strangely no adverse comment on what (from your location) happened at your home base LGW over the last few days? :confused:

[ManofMan]

21000 litres to de-ice a widebody at MAN. Unnecessary but highly profitable. Investigation is underway for excessive administration of de-icing fluids at MAN in the past 4 days.The whole matter stinks

He has every right to complain, no body seems to be bothered that the powers that be at Manchester caused this shambles of frozen stands etc etc by using watered down de-icer to try and save money.

Everybody seems to be concentrating on how fantastic the clean up effort has been and how everyone has mucked in, but the fact remains....if we had done the job correctly in the first place we would be in this mess, someones head need's to roll.

[MAN777]

Regardless of who or what is to blame, the most important thing now is to learn from the experience, all those involved can now call themselves experts in snow clearance. Hopefully if it happens again soon, everyone should be highly efficient. If the story is true about deicer dilution calculations then those responsibe should at least get a bollocking and sent to physics and chemistry classes at night school :):rolleyes:

Just an observation, we have a lovely cleared car park at the cargo centre, dont suppose there has been any effort to return us to dual runway ops or are we waiting for spring ?:rolleyes:

[Ian Brooks]

Not exactly pushed at present with all the canx flights

Ian B

[MAN777]

Regardless of whether the airport needs the runway capacity or not, R2 should be returned to full availability ASAP.

What happens if we have a runway blockage ?

Manchester would close again ! when it doesnt have to.

MAG stop penny pinching at give the operators a decent facility that they can trust to be open in all circumstances.

[Ian Brooks]

I guess today is probably a good day start as it is above freezing and not snowing
so probably most will have melted away by tonight just in time for it to snow tomorrow

Ian B

[wools]

Have seen in the past amounts of 20,000 plus for de-icing. However very, very rare and the last case was on a B747 which had not been anti-iced.

Was hit by slush/rain which then frooze. Then followed by snow and freezing temps. Result a big igloo.

Not many brave souls with all the H & S these days will get on wings etc to sweep. So you have got to blast the top later of ice followed by the snow level to get down to the ice back below. It is a big job and as most rigs will only hold 12,000 litres so it is a long job. Certainly got the airline bean counters attention when the invoice arrived.

Only other alternative is to wait till it starts to thaw or the sun comes up and keep turning the aircraft into the sun (has been done before when no fluid available). Of course you need clean stands to get a tug attached another story.

Rgds

[ManofMan]

Having seen the amount of snow on 23L/05R first hand I think they might leave it to the natural thaw !!, that said do we have enough de-icing fluid to keep two runways operable, if so why havnt they cleared the remaining taxi-ways ???

Infact just noticed that they have released another notam stating 23L/05R will remain closed until at least Thursday, along with....

TWY LINKS JULIET ALPHA, FOXTROT, DELTA AND ALPHA GOLF CLOSED DUE TO
SURFACES CONTAMINATED WITH ICE AND FROZEN SNOW. 11 JAN 12:15 2010 UNTIL 12 JAN
17:00 2010. CREATED: 11 JAN 12:16 2010

How long does this stuff take to clear ??? been a week now !!!!

[Ian Brooks]

Gets worse when it rains on top of it like it did yesterday just turns into solid ice
The road round corner from me would have been suitable for dancing on ice last night


Ian B

[1station]

Runway 2 will be left to thaw without assistance from de-icer. Having not been touched since the Tuesday's deluge and all the compacted ice beneath it may do more harm than good clearing it.

[ManofMan]

Runway 2 will be left to thaw without assistance from de-icer. Having not been touched since the Tuesday's deluge and all the compacted ice beneath it may do more harm than good clearing it.

More harm than using the watered down de-icing fluid that has got us in this mess in the first place ????

Someone has to face answers....

[MAN777]

Runway 2 will be left to thaw without assistance from de-icer. Having not been touched since the Tuesday's deluge and all the compacted ice beneath it may do more harm than good clearing it.

Not correct, as the snow brushes are out there now !!

Maybe MAG reads this thread ?:)

[Betablockeruk]

Maybe MAG reads this thread ?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Oh I do hope so!

Best feedback around [seriously]

[MUFC_fan]

Best feedback around [seriously]


It certainly is raw data with no heirs or graces. I wonder if it would be the same if face to face?:hmm:

[42psi]

Think you'll find MAG does read here :suspect:


But doesn't neccesarily decide what to do based on the musings written :E


Only those links used during LVPs are being kept clear.:ok:


OK ... for the curious .... if you follow this link you'll see the current MAN Winter Ops Document which is a supppliment to the Aerodrome Manual

MAG World - Winter Operations Plan (Snow Plan) (http://www.magworld.co.uk/magweb.nsf/Content/AirOpsDLWinterOpsPlan)

[AircraftOperations]

Why did I see 2 Emirates 777s parked at MAN when I taxiied into T2 today? I know that they have 2 flights per day, but as one was remote parked I assume it was tech? Any more details available?

[Betablockeruk]

Mondays EK020 didn't depart until 1617 today (tues).

From EK website:
The flight will night stop in MAN due to technical reasons and will operate as EK8020/12Jan

[simonchowder]

I was up at MAN yesterday and there was Emirates 777 on a remote stand with a couple of i would imagine very cold BA engineers working on the #2 engine for most of the day, must admit as a office bound "shiny arse "i do take my hat off to the staff that keep us flying at this time of year, the wind chill up at Manchester felt about -10 yesterday

[Ian Brooks]

Yes that wind was wicked last night.
MAN seems to be taking quite a few diversions today but BA seem to be avoiding us

Ian B

[purplehelmet]

hi ian, any idea whats diverted in and where from? cheers.
ph.

[Bagso]

Tom182 Gobye (egbb)
Swr42b Hbjvc (egbb)
Tom031 Goobk (egkk)
Tom075 Goobl (egkk)
Tcx128l Gomyt (egkk)
Vik688 Serhx (egkk)
Kac102 9kaoa (egll)
Coa110 N57111 (egll)

[purplehelmet]

cheers bagso:ok:

[Bagso]

..we lost out on two RAF Tristars...they are in EMA :\

[RoyHudd]

Stand 22. 1815. 12/01/10. LX from ZRH. Taxied round all the roadworks to get on stand. Disembarkation delayed 30 mins due inop airbridges. 2 not 1. LX Captain voiced his view to me that "this airport is very poor. Perhaps it has no money". I agreed.

Temp based here and never seen a bigger shambles since Benghazi.

Spoke to an airport worker on the staff bus in from Staff West. He confirmed that many airside drivers of ploughs are untrained, and doing the job due to a shortage of staff. Equipment is plentiful. Sheeshh!!

[ManofMan]

Spoke to an airport worker on the staff bus in from Staff West. He confirmed that many airside drivers of ploughs are untrained, and doing the job due to a shortage of staff. Equipment is plentiful. Sheeshh!!

I will speak with personel and see if can employ another 50 or so "Snow" staff just incase this once in 50 year event happens again.

[Bagso]

Well its not all bad news , they just turned round the "unplanned " Continental in a little over an hour !:ok:

I would say that is pretty slick personally and a credit to all involved !

I am happy to crticise the airport over strategy or fundamental long term issues that go unchallenged for months on end, but come on, an inopereable airbridge can be a one off, it can happen anywhere.........

... I note that your home base is supposedly Gatwick, which I suspect is a bigger shambles. note ...closed again for 8 hours !

I think its been shut more often than open since the takeover.....

They are also revamping the landing fees so it will cost the same to land a Dash as a 747 which looks like less than smart move ?

....might be worth throwing some brickbats in your own back yard before slinging any our way !

[allosaurus]

still u/s at 1930. a/c on stand for 15-20 mins before bridge moved.

[Bagso]

Well its not all bad news they have just turned round an "unplanned" Continental diversion in a little over 90mins ..:ok:

Well done to all concerned !

I fully admit I am the very first to criticise MAN when things go, but thats normally a by-product of long term strategy etc

....but an inoperable air bridge....come on that could occur anywhere !

As for a Swiss pilot going as far as commenting to you that " MAN has no money" well it might be the truth, but to suggest a pilot would say that to you ..well I find that a bit ludicrous to be honest !

....and then lo and behold you start chatting with "an airport worker" who just happens to qualify your views yet again !

To be honest Roy there are more than enough of us grumpy old locals to have a good rant about MAN so we don't need any help !

So happy to suggest you stick to throwing brickbats "at your own airport" on the Gatwick forum....

...there is talk on there about the new owners amending the landing fees so it will cost the same to land a Dash as it would a 747 ...nice one

... oh and its shut again (all day) ...infact I think it has been closed more often than it has been open since the new owners took over !

There plenty to keep you occupied !

Me ...I'm off to do some reading, now where did I put my Walter Mitty
paperback !!!


(MODS - apols if this appears twice, it was posted, appeared BUT then disappeared, as also did a worthwhile comment by Manofman).

[purplehelmet]

just how untrained does one have to be to drive around the airport with a plough on the front?:ugh:

[simonchowder]

Could they not utilise some of those ops people who appear to outnumber everyone else at manchester, most of the time they appear to do cock all apart from sit in groups in their 4x4,s on the ramp gassing to each other

[Tight Seat]

I like working out of MAN.

The bridge on 22 has been playing up for a while, as has the one on 32 , 25 and 23.

I really like the new shopping area in T1, but it is time to update the disco tubes on all C pier. The smell of 'wet dog' on the bridges in the morning is only a shade better than the grease/beer smell form Burger King :bored:

Do you think a Matalan or Primark is more in keeping with Manchesters image, the sales staff always look so bored in the Timberland shop.

[Hamburg 2K8]

Pier B needs updating first doesn't it?! When is the new Pier being bulit? New airbridges are required on both piers. How is the A380 work going on next to stand 14?

[TURIN]

I was up at MAN yesterday and there was Emirates 777 on a remote stand with a couple of i would imagine very cold BA engineers working on the #2 engine for most of the day, must admit as a office bound "shiny arse "i do take my hat off to the staff that keep us flying at this time of year, the wind chill up at Manchester felt about -10 yesterday

Don't mention it! :ok:

[simonchowder]

As said, hats off, its one thing being out it that weather its quite another to do a technically demanding job on which many peoples lives could depend....salut

[The96er]

MAN seems to be taking quite a few diversions today but BA seem to be avoiding us

Actually, BA requested MAN to take a few widebodies, to which the airport responded by saying they could come in but no one is to be offloaded. Apparently not enough staff to cope ! - that's airport staff btw, not Aviance. What airport staff would be required, I've no idea. Anyhow, BA fearing their crews would run out of hours decided to divert their aircraft elsewhere.

"Welcome to MAN - the airport that cant handle aircraft" :rolleyes:

[Ringwayman]

That's right. MAN can't handle aircraft properly. Better tell that to the crew of CO110 and KU102 seeing that they spent relatively little amount of time beng handled here before going to LHR. Perhaps we might want to contemplate how the CO and KU crews had no trouble seemingly in keeping to their hours whereas BA feared they may exceed theirs.

it seems that some posters will always find fault with MAN. PErhaps they should set up their own forum detailing the day's misadventures at MAN as they seem to believe occur regularly daily.

[Mr A Tis]

Roy Hudd......:) you are so funny, you should have your own radio show.
Do u travel much ZRH to UK ? I do.
ZRH to UK departures go from a crappy bussing annex with bugger all facilities. Inevitably, you end up stood on a remote stand, freezing yr tits off in the pi**ing rain queuing on the one set of steps up agaainst the A319.
Give it a rest old chap :zzz::zzz::zzz:

[nigel.hayes007]

Oh dear!
Dont know if its the same at every airline but the lot i work for usually send the w#####s out on temp work hopeing they can wangle it that they never return to base.
Reading the daily rantings of mr happy hudd one cant help think the above
may be true with his company also,lets hope they see the error of their ways and take him back,Gatwick seems to have gone to pot since weve been graced at manchester.

[42psi]

Snow ploughs/brushes/blowers etc are driven only by staff trained specifically to operate them - and are re-trained annually.

This includes the ops staff who have been doing so for some weeks now.


Staff for arriving diverts ... now let me see ... coach drivers if off pier comes to mind ... that seems to be the only directly employed by MAN staff that occur to me?

Others that get "taken into account when deciding" are

Handling agent pax services/ramp staff.
Customs & immigration.

Can't really think of any others who have a substantial impact on arriving flights.:uhoh:


I guess it's easier to knock than look for positives.

Personally I feel that all at MAN, MAPlc staff, handling agents, fuellers, caterers, cleaners etc have all made tremendous efforts to keep the show on the road.

If you look at all the last few winters I reckon MAN is one of the most reliably open and operating airfields in the UK.

Might be far from perfect in many ways but it strikes me that it's trying hard.

:)

[ManofMan]

That's right. MAN can't handle aircraft properly. Better tell that to the crew of CO110 and KU102 seeing that they spent relatively little amount of time beng handled here before going to LHR. Perhaps we might want to contemplate how the CO and KU crews had no trouble seemingly in keeping to their hours whereas BA feared they may exceed theirs

Well thats a simple one, the CO and KU were both splash and dash and diverted in due to holding for LHR, the BA aircraft were from LGW and XCD's has been issued telling of it closure until 1700z, so the staff would have run out of hours and the aircraft we have been unloaded.

The amount of diversions turned away from Manchester yesterday was 20 +, not only BA (glad we did after the way they treated us) but many others that ended up flying from the states to the u.k. then were forced to divert into Mainland europe as the request for Manchester was repeatedly turned down.

Makes you wonder..

[MAN777]

Some of the early diversions did off load (G-OMYT an A330 rings a bell.)

There were loads of spare stands available.

Who was turning the aircraft away, handling agents or airport authority ?

If I remember correctly, it was quite normal for BA to spread out the diversion alternates so as not to overload any one location. PIK, GLA, EDI, etc

I remember many years ago when a massive fleet of coaches turned up for major diversion session, and trains chartered specially. Is there the will anymore to take on challenges or is it easier to tell people to go away :rolleyes:

[42psi]

I guess this could go around in ever decreasing circles :ugh:

I would think the thought process required for considering diversions is pretty straight forward.

If I think it through I'd arrive at something like:

1. Runway availability.
2. Parking availability (not just at the time of diversion but giving consideration to how long the divert might be expected to take up space)
3. Impact of diversion A/C parking on MAN planned movements.
4. Ramp handling ability (Handling agent/fuellers/cleaners etc).
5. Terminal Capacity. (Passenger flow numbers (arrivals only or arrivals/departures) against building capacity/check-in desk availability etc. Bear in mind there is no longish term capacity to "store" transit passengers - so it's stay on board or be "landed").
6. Handling agent ability to accept diversion.
7. Control authorities willingness/ability to deal with pax numbers and origins.
8. Coach availability - airside for remote parking.
9. Coach/hotel availability - landside for HOTAC of PAX or onwards tranport. (If the roads or coaches are advised as not available and hotels are full etc).


If it were me taking the decision I'd be factoring in how the resident carriers/handling agents have reacted in the recent past to acceptance of diversions. Have they welcomed all comers with open arms or complained & beaten up MAPlc for being greedy and accepting diverts at the expense of service delivery to the regular services.

Same holds true for handling agents. Are they confident that their carriers will not apply service penalty hits when they struggle to meet normal targets - bear in mind the struggle might be because of dealing with someone elses diverts.

So while aviance (read Servisair) are busy dealing with 20 BA diverts what will Tomsonfly think of being told they will suffer.

Perhaps if you were Thomsonfly you might just tell them you expect their daily bread & butter to be looked after ahead of the sometimes visitor?


For me personally I can see why 20+ BA diverts still sitting there the next morning might be a problem. With LGW closed (at the time of divert) .. perhaps no firm opening time and the thought that crews going out of hours might ground the a/c I think I'd be wary......

Maybe, just maybe, perhaps that's why the splash & dash visitors have less problem.

[MAN OPS]

LH 4890 12.04.2010 29.10.2010 STR 08:10 10:05 MAN CLD CR7 1:55

LH 4890 18.04.2010 24.10.2010 STR 11:45 13:40 MAN CLD CR7 1:55

LH 4891 12.04.2010 29.10.2010 MAN 10:45 12:30 STR CLD CR7 1:45

LH 4891 18.04.2010 24.10.2010 MAN 14:20 16:05 STR CLD CR7 1:45

[1station]

It would seem Emirates diverted in and off loaded yesterday without incident. No staffing issues apparent although they were of course afforded a stand!!!!!

[The96er]

It would seem Emirates diverted in and off loaded yesterday without incident. No staffing issues apparent although they were of course afforded a stand!!!!!

You'll find that MAPLc will bend over backwards for Emirates. Just ask Flybe who were asked to canx their flights during the snow chaos because resourses were directed to clearing the stands for the Emirates 777.
BA were offered 7 widebody stands yesterday on the previso that there'd be strictly NO offloads !!

[42psi]

No point in letting facts get in the way of a good rumor I guess :suspect:

Emirates normal stand (31) has been clear pretty much from the start.

The next door (29) used for the second EK was (I think) cleared about 2/3/4 days ago.

By the time 29 was cleared all the stands regularly used/needed (at least the pier stands) by Flybe were clear.


In fact I wouldn't mind betting that MAPlc are probably keener on Flybe than BA these days :}


I'm waiting for Flybe to update their name to FlyBeAirways .......

Followed by dropping the Fly bit becoming BeAirways ....

A little later abbreviating this to BEA ......


The circle of life ... :E

[Betablockeruk]

strictly NO offloads

Now this is where it does get confusing. Message after message of complaints that MA Plc has turned 'Ringway' into a shopping plaza, with the odd aircraft stand, and a brilliant opportunity to offload 1500 hungry, tired, needing retail therapy 'consumers' is turned down! :confused:

Get in there and spend, spend, spend!!

;)

[MAN777]

Offloads wont be spending anything because there is very little in the way of shops for incoming PAX, the only way diverted passengers would grace the "shopping centre" is if they were put up overnight locally and continued their journey the next day, I think this is what happened to the KLM MD11 recently.

[RoyHudd]

Cleared to a remote at LGW yesterday. Couldn't park though, due snowclearing. Had to wait. 2 minutes. The field had received very heavy snow, which had turned wet. Something a professional can judge better than enthusiastic amateurs.:ok: Our livelihood depends in part upon such skills.


The criticisms of most detractors suggest that none of you actually fly aircraft for a living. So be it. If you did, and were based, albeit temporarily at a dump like MAN, you would have cause for complaint. You would be less fierce in your defence of the indefensible.

I used to love the place. I was a spotter there as a kid, and flew out of MAN on business countless times. Even trained (Ravenair) there. Happy memories. But present experiences are dire. Complaints in public may ultimately help the situation. Official complaints are handled in an ineffectual and PC manner.

Finally I enjoyed the ridicule concerning being involved in a conversation with an LX pilot. Dialogue is permitted between colleagues in this business. I even got to chat with the Cabin Crew, who were much more attractive!

[ManofMan]

Cleared to a remote at LGW yesterday. Couldn't park though, due snowclearing. Had to wait. 2 minutes

You must have been one of the lucky ones...you see EGKK shut at about 5am and didnt open again until 1645....so i am presuming that you flew in after 1645 when the XCD stated 6 per hour ?? If thats the case i would have expected that the stand was clear already...after all the had just shut for 12 hours following an inch of snow.

P.S, you dont have to be a pilot to know what you are talking about when it comes to the conditions, other peoples jobs include operating on a snow covered field and having to cope....or did you just think it was the jockies ???

[edmond64]

It must be very self satisfying to cast your professional eye on the enthusiastic amateurs running around doing all the menial stuff.

[Bagso]

So our resident Biggles flew into Manchester Tuesday, this coincided with what I presume was la late LX late morning /lunchtime flight or the div ex BHX...(odd that they got off but heyho )

....you then got your car from staff west , presumably drove at speed to LGW despite utter chaos all day on the motorway nr LGW...

still manged to post to PP mid afternoon (?)

....then managed to get some sleep, before getting up at say 3am (?) to check-in for a VERY VERY early flight getting out of LGW ( must have been before 5am),

...at which point LGW was sno closed, you then managed get back to LGW after it opened at circa 1600 ?


hmmmmm.....careful Holmes it may be a trap !

[TSR2]

Posted by RoyHudd

The criticisms of most detractors suggest that none of you actually fly aircraft for a living.

... and I am beginning to doubt that you do.

[Ringwayman]

Another good month for EK in December looking at the CAA stats released to day: over 44000 pax. At least 80% full. Capacity or frequency increase can't be too far away (perhaps it can be brought forward?!)

[Seljuk22]

EK 017/018 A380 effective September (anyone else could confirm this?)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13182735-post121.html

[MANFlyer]

Funny hearing how them not able to take diverts. I remember visiting MAN a loooong time ago one Saturday afternoon and the place was literally rammed full of widebodies diverted from LHR. Walking along the viewing deck on top of the B pier was just widebody after widebody.

[purplehelmet]

manflyer.
ah! memories eh! the good ole days, i can remember wagging skool in the late 70s to watch the divs come in at the airport, like you say some days it was rammed with aircraft from all over. didnt they park a pan-am 747 on the grass once due to lake of space?

[Ian Brooks]

(didnt they park a pan-am 747 on the grass once due to lake of space)

I have never heard that one before, hope they didn`t as it would probably still be there
today as the ground would not support it

Ian B

[ManofMan]

And then they invented Eurocontrol/CFMU who simply ground all short-hauls in europe and leave the holds free to be cluttered with heavies !!

The days of mass diversions are well and truely over !!!

[purplehelmet]

maybe someone one with a better memory than me can add too this, but i seem to remember something about a pan-am 747 stuck on the grass for several days in the late 70s.

[EGBE0523]

ah! memories eh! the good ole days, i can remember wagging skool in the late 70s to watch the divs come in at the airport, like you say some days it was rammed with aircraft from all over.

That was in the days when "Can Do" was considered normal and people thought for themselves. Now most of the populace sits there paralysed waiting for a webpage or helpline to tell them what to think and do!

[bazzab68]

taken from another forum



Effective 1 September 2010

EK017/018 DXB-MAN-DXB upgraded from B777-300ER to A380-800. First class now
offered on this flight.






The above info is tentative and subject to change for operational reasons and
subject to delivery of aircraft from Airbus on time. It is not yet clear where
the freed up B77Ws from these routes will be deployed. The new A380 flights
haven't been loaded into reservation systems yet as this is still a provisional
plan.

MAN getting it's A380 upgrade as predicted.

Barry

[MAN777]

Also in those days the airport authority controlled all the apron handling, there were no handling agents operating on a shoestring. The authority had a very large pool of unionised staff who would pull together to get things done (albeit for a small bonus for every extra aircraft they handled). I worked as a temp in 1979 and 1987 there were times when baggage staff would sit around for hours waiting for something to do, I bet that most ground crews are now occupied down to the last minute !

[RoyHudd]

It seems that my criticism of MAN management needs to be met by a hysterical defence and strident accusations that one is inventing a story about being a pilot and actually operating aircraft.

I have had enough of the silliness. Just for reference, I paxed into MAN from a short break in Zurich, travelling in their ever-so-pleasant C class, on the last LX from ZRH, which arrived on-time and was directed to a duff stand (22) and ultimately delayed by 1hr10mins on subsequent departure. I meanwhile went home, to be called off standby the following morning and eventually operate as single sector to LGW around 1630, arriving at temporarily blocked stand 177M an hour later.

I am now preparing to operate a delayed flight out of LGW, the delay being due to a tech a/c.(Having enjoyed a pleasant day with a spot of Standby and relaxing inthe plush crew hotel at LGW on Thursday). Ultimately I will be returning, operating back into LGW in a few days time.

Is this all so far-fetched? (Not if you work as a pilot...glamorous it ain't, but real it is)

Anyway I'll leave you wannabees and Walter Mitty airline pilots to squabble amongst yourselves, whilst reminding you of the name of this website (Professional Pilots.....etc). IMHO MAN remains a very poor imitation of an international airport.

PS I will return, but not on this thread. Tara.

[simonchowder]

Oh dear, yet another walt "outed", never mind theres plenty more on here im sure

[ManofMan]

Roy Hudd....

Guessing you took the TCX332P, out of Interest how did you manage to get a slot, was it down to the sheer number of cancellations ??? (Thats not a trick question BTW, its one of genuine interest)

Cheers

[Trash_Hauler]

I think you may find that "Mr Hudd" did not get a slot...

The less than worthy (in his eyes apparently) ops staff would have been the ones doing that. Of Course in Mr Biggles eerrrrr.... I mean Hudds little dream-world, the guys and gals that load the plane, deal with the pax, fuel, de-ice, dispatch and w&b, ops, clean, cater and pushback the plane are irrelevant. As they are not "worship the ground I walk upon" pilots.

No man is an island my dear boy. Just remember it is hard to "pilot" your aircraft with my 40 tonne tug attached to your nose wheel. Keep running your mouth, we are slowly but surely figuring out who you are! And when that happens, you may find that you will have REAL reason to complain about MAN as your turnarounds there will start getting a tad more "challenging".

[ManofMan]

Trash Hauler....

Seen as he is type rated on the Airbus 320/321 and 330 and took a positioning flight from Manchester on the 13/01 at around 1630 hrs...can only have been TCX332P the only A330 from TCX to have left during that period.

Find out who had that and you have your man :O

[Mr A Tis]

To quote our Roy from a previous thread
Sorry, incomprehensible to me. (Granted I am a bit thick). I do fly 330's despite that.

Nuff said. Can't believe BMI let you go.:eek:

[Bagso]

Re Biggles

Hardly Saddos Biggles !

This forum contains some good banter, many strong differences of opinion some good, some bad, some factual , some not, BUT at least most posters are passionate ,seldom are they utter drivel .....as most of your comments are !

Brace yourselves Gatwick Forum ...Biggles is turning inbound !



Re Divs

...who could forget BCAL 10s..you only needed a housewife to boil an egg in the general area of Crawley between Oct - and Mar and in they came ! :ok:

Great stuff !

[edmond64]

nor could you forget Braniff!!!

[MUFC_fan]

The evening DXB will be changed to a 3 class aircraft which will reduce capacity in the evening, which, funny enough, happens around a similar time that the expected A380 schedule begins?!:confused::ok::}

Another forum (the bigger one) also have posts to suggest EY are increasing their aircraft to the 77W at some point but not sure.

So now it almost seems certain that the A380 will finally be gracing MAN's runways offering their first class product as will their evening schedule.

With SQ and EK soon to operate F class - who will be next? QR?:ok:

[TSR2]

Posted by RoyHudd

I have had enough of the silliness

Thank goodness for that.

[Ziggy22]

Well I'm just a PAX and fly 2 sometimes 3 times a year from Manc and have used all terminals, cant fault the place!! Good check staff, dispatch staff good and have never had a delay of over an hour. Have had a look at the last 5 pages and it appears peeps like Mr Hudd(pilot????) who slag our airport off are all southern based, can you please go back there and dont bother coming back?? Thank you and good riddance!! :):)

[chiglet]

I remember a [Tiger?] DC8 reversing off 10/28 onto 06 for taxi for a 24 dep...a BOAC VC10 slamming on reverse thrust to stop before colliding with the pier at stand 2..[Taxiway de-iced....stand not]
Also the taxiways, Rw28/10 Fantail etc filled with Dive. The most divs I saw was 28 [on an afternoon shift....bearing in mind, I started at 13.30, and some had departed]
Ahhhh the Good old days...:ok:

[Egerton Flyer]

Hi Chiglet,
You don't remember the Wright brothers as well do you?:}
I thought I was getting on a bit, I can go back some 30ish years though.


E.F.

[Ian Brooks]

That DC-8 was that 1970? if so I think it was American Flyers, if it was I had been to Heathrow the previous weekend and it was so cold and foggy then all hell let loose at
Manchester and I have never seen so many diversions which included double parking on some stands and most of the taxyways closed with aircraft the full length

Ian B

[Scottie Dog]

Chiglet

Was that the day when they parked a couple of Olympic 727s in front of the terminal - where stands 16-17 are now - and also PH, as Ops 1, had a Tarom 1-11 parked up on the old taxiway to what would have been the threshold of 20 (I think it ran through what is now stand 100)? :ok:

No SBS in those days of course so we just listened to 133.7 and tried to hear what was holding around Brecon and looking to divert, or to the ops frequencies of Speedbird, Bealine, Servisair and possibly Manchester Handling to understand what was happening. :D

Oh the old days, we could even think of moving this whole thread to 'History and Nostalgia'.

ps - how about the long outstanding pint that I owe you? Send me a PM.

Cheers for now.

Scottie (very old) Dog.

[TSR2]

Keep the stories coming Scottie Dog and chiglet. Yes, those were interesting days. By the way Scottie Dog 59 is not very old. Just like a good cheddar ... mature.

[chiglet]

I arrived at Manch Tower on my birthday in 1969......from Brum
I have been......
Tower Assistant,
PATCRU Assistant,
Runway Controller,
Sector Assistant at the "Sub Centre",
Flight Briefing Assistant/Officer,
Pennine Assistant,
Qualified Specialist TelePrinter Operator,
Qualified SAMOS Met Observer,
My last duty is a 2-10 on Friday 22 Jan when MACC goes North at midnight
Have I enjoyed it? Emphatically YES
Will I miss it? I Honestly do not know
I will miss the people, but not the 0630am start
Sorry to hijack the thread, but as I said on a [failed] promotion attempt..
"Seen it, Done it, Got the Tee Shirt"

[TSR2]

Well chiglet its not often you get the opportunity to thank unsung hero's, so from one who appreciates the service you have provided over so many years, enjoy your retirement.

[busz]

Am sure i must have talked to you a few times Chiglet. All the best for the future :ok:

[Tight Seat]

All the very best for the future. Thanks from all at Spotty M.

[lexxity]

Thanks for all the hard work, it's certainly been appreciated. Especially the tour I was given. Good Luck to all. :ok:

[midnight retired]

Well done Chiglet.
Over the years we will have passed in the night and I thankyou for your support .
Now you can write your own Roster and enjoy your retirement and probably discover that their are not enough hours in the day ,but please find the time to contribute to pprune.
Good Luck and welcome to the not so silent majority.

[chiglet]

Thank you all....I'm blushing :O

[IB4138]

Does this mean you might find time for an occasional pint in Stalybridge Station Buffet Bar now, chiglet ? :ok:

[GavinC]

With regard to Etihad increasing capacity to AUH. I am currently booking a trip out there with a return date in March and the booking system is showing the return flight as having only one seat remaining. Surely an upgrade in equipment can't be far off if there is an A340 free for it!

[MUFC_fan]

I would guess a 77W/increase in frequency would be better - an A340 has first class.

Unless they plan to become the 3rd airline to offer first class from MAN within a couple of months!:ok:

[mickyman]

MUFC_fan

Then its just a matter of the people of the Northwest
supporting the airlines decision by occupying the first
class seats through companies or personal use!

MM

[learjet50]

Chiglet

Well done to escape ???

I am sure I will Know u and possibly V/V


I was at Nothern Exec for the Early 70 until 2 years ago when the big change happened under the awsome eye of David antrobus and I Knew may of the controllers Tim McKay// John Rhodes /Kevin Edmunds/John Dale // Ron Fry to Name but a few


Sadly the good old days are now far gone when everbody knew everbody at Manchester and when u wanted to do curcuits in the Learjet at the peak times you all fitted us in..

Its a pity thats no more but thats progess (Or so they tell us)

Anyhow best of luck with your retirement (May it be long and happy)

Kind Regards


Gerry O Neill (Ex Northern Exec)

[Trash_Hauler]

Hey Jezza....

When we gonna see you back at work? We are all missing you bud! Hope you are feeling better!

Trash_Hauler

[Vuelo]

Could MAN see a return of flag carriers any time soon, I am thinking in particular of:

IB to Madrid
TP to Lisbon
AZ to Rome
OA to Athens
OS to Vienna
MA to Budapest
SU to Moscow
LO to WAW
MS to Cairo
RB to Damascus
LY to Tel Aviv
LG to Luxembourg


Personally I think IB/TP/AZ are probably the most likely in the next 12 months.

[Fernanjet]

Personally I think IB/TP/AZ are probably the most likely in the next 12 months

Why?

They have all tried before....and left because they could not make money from the routes....

Why try again....?

[TG345]

Just want to add my two-pennerth to those above. All the very best to you Chiglet sir; we may never meet, but I am grateful to you and your colleagues for your tolerance of my inadequacies when I was but a tyro in a Ravenair PA28....those were the days

[Bagso]

Could MAN see a return of flag carriers any time soon, I am thinking in particular of:

IB to Madrid
TP to Lisbon
AZ to Rome
OA to Athens
OS to Vienna
MA to Budapest
SU to Moscow
LO to WAW
MS to Cairo
RB to Damascus
LY to Tel Aviv
LG to Luxembourg


Personally I think IB/TP/AZ are probably the most likely in the next 12 months

....well hope you are right but with global alliances and centralisation on major hubs, i suspect there is not a car in hells chance....BUT hope I am wrong !!

[Betablockeruk]

Cat or car? :\

Anyway, ?? to Madrid must happen soon! Andalus was the latest rumour.

OA maybe back when the new airline has settled in.

[rutankrd]

IB left at BA bequest after the joint BA/IB UK-Spain operation agreement.
The Barcelona sector is now swamped by LCC/quasi charter market.
Madrid is said to be too long for Flybe (Anyway BA might have said something behind closed doors – (My Conspiracy- and no actual proof)
And any one else flying the Madrid can cater only for the O & D can't they.
Bmibaby timings were poor to useless for business and Easyjet really have taken the North West - Madrid traffic away to the west for the foreseeable future.
It is my considered opinion the ONLY suitable carrier would be Air Nostrum for IB and if BA let them.

TP/PGA same company and left not just because of loads (which did drop admittedly as a result of predatory FR pricing from LPL) but also because TAP made a commercial decision to focus on *A routes on mainland.

AZ - Well just maybe maybe not - They have a 40 year love hate relationship and if they return its likely MXP - however i would say LHi are more likely now!

NOA- Wait and see , the new Olympic is small but could be prosperous - Again look to Aegean but anyway Easyjet are back in the spring.

AUA- Somehow LH group seem to want them focused East of Vienna these days- To the point of getting Bmi to operate some of the LHR-VIE rotations come spring.

Malev are plain bust - and Jet2 are near daily to Budapest so adequate coverage !

Aeroflot - Will return on code share with CSA in spring via Prague

LOT- Its possible they may return in the next 18 months

Egyptair and Syrian think we can forget.
To Egypt plenty of competition with the quasi Charters to Taba/Sharm/Luxor and Marsa Alam - Cairo is a dead-end really
Syrian -just don't have the airworthy frames and are stretched serving what remains of their network for the foreseeable future.

El-AL are completely undecided and again have relatively few frames for any expansion- Jet2 go two weekly over the summer –that should enough capacity.

Luxair don't see them returning - THEY DID struggle with a jungle jet shared with Dublin. By the way the Dublin route currently survives as a direct link.

[cyclops16]

Whilst we are on the subject on airlines and routes.Do those who know more than me think there will ever be a Chinese passenger carrier at MAN?? I know we have Cathay,etc with freight.I would have thought there was a possible market as Manchester at some point in the future as one of the few "Tiger" cities in the world by having a ceremonial gate to China town and there is a large(ish) Chinese population in the North West of England,even Midlands for those wishing to avoid LHR.I know there has been talk of it in the past with Cathay or was that just rumour control at work.

[MUFC_fan]

...to Madrid must happen soon! Andalus was the latest rumour.


Upon the marriage of BA and Iberia, MAD will look very unlikely. People seem to think that, like with the AA move, it will be better for the regions. Maybe so, but only in the form of shuttle runs to LHR.

UK-(BA)-LHR-(BA/IB)-MAD/BCN-(IB)-Spain will be the general pattern if you wish to travel with Oneworld.

Unless one of the LCCs are looking that is...

[crispey]

Cathay gave up on Man to Hongkong a while back didn't they?I flew the route just once.Via AMS with barely a quarter load.It filled up at AMS.Likewise on the return via CDG.Just a handfull remained for Man after most left at Paris.Pity,it was a good experience overall.

[MUFC_fan]

Seems A380 is coming ever closer. The larger airline forum has stated that LHR, PVG, PEK, MAN and JFK will get daily services each.

However, TAS has said that the plan is for a 3rd daily flight offering first class on all three services.:confused:

One thing that is for certain is that EK don't want SQ getting hold of MAN's F class passengers!

[RobT100]

Is it not time we had a direct Jo'burg? The world cup would be a great time for launch. Any bidders???

[MUFC_fan]

EK, EY, QR, AF, LH, BA - need I go on?

[RobT100]

....I said "Direct" !

[Skipness One Echo]

Is it not time we had a direct Jo'burg?

Didn't South African try and fail at this in the 90s, or was that Cape Town? Either way I certainly shot SAA B743s at MAN...

[Bagso]

Cathay was actually well patronised, it went when CX got into bed with BA.

CX blamed poor load factors UK-HK etc etc but it was reasonably well used. Certainly all the press releases until this point indicated that it was a major success until that marriage. General UK market conditions were blamed BUT fares shot up so that it was actually cheaper to get on a shuttle and fly via LHR with BA and then CX than it was to fly direct.

As a footnote and despite "market conditions" the slot miraculously re-appeared at LHR about 3 months after our service ended moving them to about 4 a day..........and almost an hourly shuttle to HK !

SAA had 80% load factors but when apparthied was ended this opened previously closed markets to countries and major capital cities which had not been served up to this point.......our aircraft was needed to serve what were considered more prestigious destinations.....

QANTAS also had 80% load factors but we lost that one when BA bought a 25% stake in QF .....again service finished within about 6 months !


For the record the same was true with IBERIA !


....don't wish to to start whinging about BA but when these mergers and takeovers occurred they bleated about "increased competition, more customer choice etc etc !

It was and remains complete bollocks !

They manipulated fares and screwed the market !

...I am only amased that they have never not put pressure on EK and AA !








BA told the airlines to stop serving Manchester





Same happened with QF , BA bought a 25% stake and within

[MUFC_fan]

....I said "Direct" !

You mean non-stop. You could say I am being pedantic but there actually is a massive difference. DL fly direct from MAN to LAS and IFAIK LAX via their two respective bases. CO, US and AA operate very similar operations TATL as well.

Also, I think those connections show that actually, there is:

1. No need for a non-stop service
2. The market is very much satisfied

Globespan failed for similar reasons to the JFK service - inconsistencies and the only way the route would work is with a long haul carrier that isn't OW...

[Vuelo]

Globespan never even got the MAN-JNB off the ground. It was cancelled prior to launch.

You lot are like stuck records 'they tried it and failed', 'they tried it and failed'! So by that measure, nothing would ever progress at Manchester, or any other airport. What may not have worked in 1997 with fuel inefficient a/c doen't really apply today.

Someone said TP and IB are concentrating on hubs; correct, but they need feeds into these hubs! A hub is useless without its spokes....just ask BA at LHR.

As regards MAD, Air Europa might be an option with one of their efficient E190s.

[Curious Pax]

Upon the marriage of BA and Iberia, MAD will look very unlikely. People seem to think that, like with the AA move, it will be better for the regions. Maybe so, but only in the form of shuttle runs to LHR.

UK-(BA)-LHR-(BA/IB)-MAD/BCN-(IB)-Spain will be the general pattern if you wish to travel with Oneworld.

Unless one of the LCCs are looking that is...

On the contrary, I would think the tie-up of BA/IB will make a MAN-MAD service more likely. If the ethos of the merger is as reported - to exploit the strength of BA to North America, and IB to South America, then it would make no sense to route people from the regions through both LHR and MAD when they could go directly to MAD and onwards to Brazil/Chile etc.

If BA/IB judge that MAN can generate sufficient point-to-point traffic and transit traffic to make it worthwhile then it is likely to happen, especially with IB having the (presumably cheaper) option of Air Nostrum. You would hope that the extra transit traffic that the merger may generate would tip the balance on the beancounter's spreadsheet.

[Bagso]

..on paper all these proposed direct services make perfect sense but sadly in the real world the reality is different ! It is nonsense to keep hubbing thru LHR and then answering pandering to demands for more runway capacity but sadly that is what we are facing !


You cannot blame BA, a single hub is much more cost effective.....

For a long time we also suffered from a semi compliant public in the North Of England "happy with their lot" and subservient enough to do what the airlines and BA offered them ......it reinforced the notion that the only way out of the country was via the South East !

......the success of EK, etc means that the travelling public are at long last a bit more discerning in their choice !

I would like to share Vuelo's optimism but the pax are STILL heading in one direction on many sectors.......

[habs_fan]

How easy is it to connect flights at manchester that depart from diffrent terminals with a 1 hour 45 minute gap between?

[ben_keghead]

Pretty easy. There is a nice Skybridge connecting Terminals 1 & 2. Terminals 1 & 3 are joined next to each other, so rather easy

[MUFC_fan]

BBC News - Manchester United in Turkish Airlines sponsorship deal (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8473236.stm)

Could this benefit the airport at all?

IST-MAN-LAX?

[roverman]

I hope the deal included Nani on a free transfer to Galatasaray!

IST-MAN-LAX? IST very unlikely!

[learjet50]

Air Asia sponsered MUFC and they did not start flights to Man

Why should Turkish ??

I Cannot see them starting LAX but might be wrong

Best of luck

[MUFC_fan]

There are a couple of major factors associated with why Air Asia did NOT launch MAN and why TK MAY expand MAN operations.

Firstly, and most obviously, TK already fly from MAN, they are 9 hours flight time nearer to MAN than Air Asia's new KUL long-haul base.

Secondly, at the time of Air Asia's deal with MUFC, there was no long haul aircraft to be seen. They made the correct decision to launch STN over MAN yet I would never suggest that MAN would fall off of their radar as it would be a great route, but not as lucrative as STN and you cannot launch two destinations into the same country when there is already competition as fierce as EK, QR, EY, LH, AF etc.

THIRDLY, the route IST-MAN-LAX was mentioned some time back.

It may be the case that TK have made their deal solely for advertisement, however they have NOT signed a shirt deal - their logo will not be seen around the globe week in week out as has AIG for the past X amount of years. It may be simply for the advertisement boards and programmes but I think it is something more than that...

[mickyman]

TK have recently painted one of their 737's in
Barcelona colours I believe.

MM

[jubilee]

I think TK have done a shirt deal with Barcelona as well.
Regards,
Jubilee

[pwalhx]

I would be surprised at that arent Barcelona famous for not having sponsors but supporting Unicef on their shirts, maybe they have doe a similar deal to the Reds though

[AircraftOperations]

How easy is it to connect flights at manchester that depart from diffrent terminals with a 1 hour 45 minute gap between?


Pretty straightforward, in my experience. It does depend if you are on a through ticket though. I recently transferred from a Terminal 2 European flight to a Terminal 2 USA flight on a through ticket and had to be taken to Terminal 1 (I think) to a transfer desk before I was taken back to T2.:ugh:

My bags were going straight through, and staff told me that an hour is the minimum I'd realistically need for such a transfer.

I've transferred between terminals on separate tickets ( having collected my bags) pretty quickly in the past.

[jubilee]

PHALHX.

Turkish Airlines press release dated 18 January 2010,states that they have become official sponsors of Barcelona.
Regards,
Jubilee

[IB4138]

The "deal" is not for names on shirts and is for both Manchester United and Barcelona.


per Manchester Evening News

United are ready to announce another sponsorship deal, this time with growing airline Turkish Airlines.

The three-year contract will see United adopt Turkish Airlines as its official carrier, replacing Air Asia, and is expected to be confirmed by the Old Trafford club soon.

Turkish Airlines has already announced a similar contract with Barcelona, which is reportedly worth approximately £2.7m a year to the Catalan giants.

[Sam Chipperfield]

Departures



BD2662 09:00 Doha Scheduled 09:00




is this code sharing with Qatar or a seperate flight for someone ??

[Tower1]

Its a code share with Qatar.
Cheers

[cyclops16]

A quick question.

Is the bus service from MAN-LPL-MAN still operational??

My Mother is flying to LPL from AGP on May 20th and stays at the Heald Green Travelodge next to MAN whilst here to see friends.She used to get the direct bus from LPL to MAN and back because of it's frequency,ease of use and price as it costs £50+ in a taxi to take her back to LPL for her flight home to AGP on 06.00 RYR flight

Cheers,

Mark

[dwlpl]

Is the bus service from MAN-LPL-MAN still operational??

No but the Terravision from LPL to Manchester city centre is still going.

[cyclops16]

Cheers for that


Mark

[1station]

T3 Check In Hall evacuated due a security incident at approx 1425. Does anyone know any more details? Still closed to my knowledge.

[cyclops16]

In the news.


Breaking News: UK terror threat raised to 'severe' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245390/Breaking-News-UK-terror-threat-raised-severe.html?ITO=1708&referrer=yahoo)

[Adola69]

I hear that Air Baltic maybe about to launch a return into Man. during March with a three times a week service to Riga and two to Vilnius.

On the downside Air Canada have withdrawn their aplications for Tornoto flights, Saudia will not be returning soon and Bangladesh has been further put back until the end of March, if at all?

It looks as if the days of NEW international long haul flights have well and truly finished at Manchester and I'm sorry to say it looks very much that its best days have been and gone?

Top - Gear are to put a bid in for the use of runway 2 !!:}

[Ringwayman]

So when was AA's JFK service canned? That's still starting new this summer. Or are you being short-sighted and expecting a dozen new long-haul routes this year?! SV's problem is that getting 90 odd passengers per flight would probably make MAN an A320 style operation. As for BG, looking at one or two media reports, they've now got the 777 and they seem to have sorted out whatever problems had previously precluding operations/

[GayFriendly]

I can see SV returning to MAN in the future as they now operate all their European flights (LHR excepted) with 320s (nonstop as opposed to via other European airports). They also dropped VIE and MUC at the same time as MAN. However if they were only averaging 90 or so pax from MAN on the 777 then it could be a while!

As for other long haul, be happy with what you have, I think you still a good range of flights and carriers after what has been (and still will be) a hell of a year for airlines. Down here at BHX our only new flight for 2010 so far is a weekly Iceland Express to KEF!! As for routes that have been dropped, well I just haven't time to type them all!!

[planenutter]

This year still has some hope, ANA are looking to start flights later on in 2010, Etihad to upgrade to 777-300ER from 28th March and Biman 777-200 from 28th March also some new charters as well :)

[Adola69]

Ringwayman, I had forgotten about the AA JFK service so forgive my amnesia?
However when it was announced I remember thinking that although it was to be commended that AA were still considering new routes from Manchester during these rather austere times, just how many more seats are required on a New York run? Continental twice a day with B.757, Delta once a day with B757 and now AA with B757. I suppose you could say that the AA is a One World replacement for the lost BA service of last year, in which case it's OK, but I would have thought that a destination not already served by other carriers may have been a more sustainable bet?

I wasn't expecting a dozen new long-haul routes this year at all, that's just plain daft, but with all the centralising of Airline operations occurring at the present time to each one's home hubs/ alliance hubs, there seems little chance of a return to the days of operations by the like of Cathay Pacific, Malaysian, South African, Qantas, Air India, El Al, Egyptair, Syrianair, Iberia, Alitalia, Air Portugal, LOT, Malev, Air Algerie, Royal Air Maroc, Tunisair, Aeroflot, Luxair, Tarom, Balkan, Olympic, etc etc. that's all !;)
I'm told that the Saudia loads were restricted to a max upload of of 80 pax from Manchester per flight, to allow the rest of the capacity to be allocated out of Geneva. If this is true then the loads were probably Ok, just not enough of the ye old yield value!
Anyway it was only my opinion and I really do hope that I am made to eat my words ! So come on All Nippon, United, JetStar, Lan Chile, JET Airways, Kingfisher, Air Asia, and Loganair, get those slots booked !:\

[FS01]

What plans have Loganair from MAN? ABZ?

[ek773]

Checking the GDS from April onwards right through December, the Etihad flights are still showing A330-200, and not the B777-300ER, would be suprised if they do upgrade to B777-300ER this year.:confused:

[ManofMan]

Checking the GDS from April onwards right through December, the Etihad flights are still showing A330-200, and not the B777-300ER, would be suprised if they do upgrade to B777-300ER this year

To be honest, i would be suprised if any of the info stated by planenutter is true, think its just a case of spotters rumours ??

Unless you can tell me otherwise planenutter ??

[AldiAl]

I'm sure I read somewhere that they'd either just got or were about to get A330-300's so maybe that's a possibility...unless they've been earmarked for specific route(s).

We'll no doubt see soon (or not!)

AldiAl

[Suzeman]

See 23R ILS still hasn't got its CAT 3 ticket. Anyone any more news as to when it will be back?

Q) EGTT/QICXX/I/NBO/A/000/999/5321N00217W005
RWY 23R ILS CONFORMS TO FACILITY PERFORMANCE CAT 1. LOC NOT SUITABLE FOR GUIDANCE DURING TAKEOFF RUNA3928/09
FROM: 30 DEC 2009 15:11 TO: 31 JAN 2010 12:00

LTN had an ILS replaced about the same time. Is that now CAT 3 qualified?

Suzeman

[Ringwayman]

Further to BG and the planned DAC-MAN-JFK run, a new UK-Bangladesh Air Services Agreement has been reached (http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/article/20100125/FREE/100129920). Doesn't specifically mention rights for MAN-JFK but i believe the UK government would not go out of the way to object granted the limited amount of traffic that would be generated on this route compared to the amount of capacity that exists on MAN-New York

[Adola69]

Hi Suzeman.
The reason the ILS is still not certified to CAT III standards and Lutons is and has been for three months now, is that MA awarded the contract to a different supplier, who, to put it in its simplest terms, cocked-up the replacement programme!:ouch:

As I understand it a sustained continuous operation of 350 hours whilst on 23R is required, and during which time the ILS system has to work 100% for 100% of the time.

This hasn't happened on two counts.
Operations on 23R have been less than normal due to the fact that the weather has dictated the use of 05L, both due to wind direction and where that's not been a factor due to the fact that the met conditions require a CAT III capable landing system.
While 05L ILS is radiating then you cannot radiate 23R at the same time. As soon as ops return to 05, and the 23R ILS is switched off, the hours return to zero and it starts all over again when next on 23 !
Combine that with the fact that when the ops are on 23R, the new ILS system keeps tripping itself up by failing and once it fails and then fixed, the 350 hours has to start building up again from zero.

Basically Manchester bought 2nd rate system, 2nd rate installation leading to crap results. Luton bought a first rate system and had the Best NATS instalation. If the installation had been conducted as it should have been and the system was as relaible as the one at Luton, then we would have had CAT III at the beginning of November! You get what you pay for.:=

Just hope that lessons have been learnt by the installers of the 23R system, as the same firm are due to replace 05L and 05R in due course, but only when 23R has acheived its CAT III status, so sometime before 2015 then ??:O

[viscount702]

This seems to sum up many of MAN's problems at the moment.

It is noted that the MAG website is no longer showing some if not all of the airfield improvements which were due to start.

Has the work on Taxiway Delta finished. It was due to be at the end of last year.If so when will Lima reopen and stands 12 etc.

What has happened to the rebuilding of Taxiway Alpha near the AVP. It was due to start the end of last year. Presumably shelved. Reference is made to an overlay but no information. More patching up.

The airfield needs a lot of working doing on it. Much is announced and then dropped.

As has been mentioned elsewhere how MAN is supposed to handle an A380 I really don't know. I think it would be mad to do so as things stand but if it can't and EK want to send one here later this year I can't see EK being that impressed with the set up.

Finally back to the ILS 05L is due to be replaced when 23R is back to CAT III whenever that maybe. However nothing definate has been said about 05R getting CAT III. -- Is this in the pipeline. Further if Runway 1 is to be resurfaced (although the start date for that seems to have been put back from the beginning of this year to the end- if it happens) 23L really should have at least CAT I.

Runway 2 really is only half a runway at best.

[mybrico]

MAN - JFK with BG no way!

[Shyted]

Etihads 1st A330-300 is already in service operating the LHR flts. There 2nd one is due 27th i believe. They are in a 3 class layout so doubt you will see them in MAN on a regular basis. Think you will be stuck with the 2 class A330-200s for some time with the occasional visit of the 3 class 200s.
I do use the service many times and it is always very busy especially business class.

Shyted

[jpthomas72]

I hear that Air Baltic maybe about to launch a return into Man. during March with a three times a week service to Riga and two to Vilnius. .
VNO now confirmed (didn't check RIX as I'm on LT's side :)), Thu/Sat, wait, depending on how you look at it it's Fri/Sun. Departing MAN at 0:50, arriving MAN at 0:10. Don't think even FR has such aircraft utilisation - even through the night.

[viscount702]

Very strange times.

What interests me though is the flights to DUB are reported to have exactly the same times as MAN.

Do the DUB flights fly a bit quicker to cover the greater distance.?!

[Fernanjet]

the distance overall flying to either MAN or DUB on that route is negligible and could easily give the same flight time dependant on routing

[MUFC_fan]

They often have larger sectors than the flight would ever actually take to operate, mainly to make sure flights get away on time/slots available.

FR have been famous for this ie) BLK's initial GRO season had a sector time of 2 hours 30 minutes - it ended up between 1:30 and 1:45 for the five times I have flown the route.

[Suzeman]

Hi Adola

Thanks for your explanation of the situation with the 23R ILS. Seems that we might have to wait some time.....

so sometime before 2015 then ??http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif

I note that it has just past 2015 with no sign of anything happening so I'm off down the pub.:E

Suzeman

[Momentary Lapse]

Remember the public inquiry for R2? 40m pax (or was it 50m) by 2015? Anyone got the growth pattern to get there, year by year? Would be interesting to compare it to actual.

Continue to wonder whether R2 was ever really needed.

[Ringwayman]

and of course, they spectacularly failed to predict all events over the last decade which have had an impact on the numbers of passengers travelling. If you think cramming 50+ movements onto a 42 movement/hr runway (at the time) is conducive to safe operations, please contact the CAA and/or BAA as your know-how would be appreciated by them so that there would be no need for another LHR runway.

[Bagso]

Re RW2 ...Momentary Lapse

RW2 rec'd planning permission in '97

pax numbers since then are ...

1998 17,351,162
1999 17,577,765
2000 18,568,709
2001 19,307,011
2002 18,809,185
2003 19,699,256
2004 21,249,841
2005 22,402,856
2006 22,422,855
2007 22,112,625
2008 21,219,195


......to be fair I think all of us on here would have agreed that a second runway was essential given the projections at that time, and whilst I have been more than critical of MAG management I doubt they could really have taken any other course, "damned if you do, damned if you do not"

Sadly we are now back to 2001 levels in terms of pax 2009 with numbers down 25%, BUT I suspect MAG will still be paying for a second runway based on the '97 projections, for years, that is why there is now no money !

.....That said not sure how much was also paid for Humberside, Bournemouth etc the relevance of which to Manchester , really does escape me !

Quite how a number of NWest based councils specifically set up to support Manchester and the Northern populous using MAG as the vehicle, was then allowed on this excursion ...well !

"words fail me ":ugh:

[BHX5DME]

Manchester 2009 total = 18,717,345 down 11.79%

[Going loco]

Ringwayman - even post 9/11, MAG were still predicting fantasy numbers for growth. Forecasts made in 2002 were for 30m+ by 2010 and even if you take it back to pre-recession times, they were forecasting 27m/28m for 2007. Were there any events between 2002 and 2007 that had any dramatic impact on passenger numbers? You'll have to remind me, because as I recall it was a boom period. The "safety" angle is a nice try at a bit of revisionism but doesn't fool anyone who was on the receiving end of the lobbying for R2. We all know it was about overtaking LGW, stopping LPL getting a foothold in the NW and laying down a marker in the willy waving contest about the second city status.

[42psi]

Viscount702

Delta & Lima have both been open for a while now.... :confused:

Stand 10 went back to into service recently (last week I think).

Work on the new stands at the end of B pier delayed due the recent WX although it looks it's in the final stages.

As for other works ..... I suspect you'll find that the WX may now cause a re-hash there ...... the recent snow/frost/ice has caused some damage here and there.

All works when promulgated contain the warning that time frames may change due to WX.

[Seljuk22]

From 28th March Czech Airlines resumes MAN-PRG with 6 weekly flights.

PRG-MAN 20:00-21:20 (except Saturday)
MAN-PRG 07:15-10:25 (except Sunday)

From 1st February Viking Hellas will launch 3 weekly flights MAN-ATH.

[Bagso]

"The "safety" angle is a nice try at a bit of revisionism but doesn't fool anyone who was on the receiving end of the lobbying for R2. We all know it was about overtaking LGW, stopping LPL getting a foothold in the NW and laying down a marker in the willy waving contest about the second city status"

On the contrary I think the management genuinely believed it although the forecast figures as you point out were fanciful to say the least !

That said they were at least heading UP at a good rate !

Not sure that you can argue against the safety element though....whilst LGW handles twice the pax that MAN does on a single runway I am sure the mix of traffic is very different, more jets,shorter transition approach/departure times, and much heavier payloads per individual aircraft etc. I am sure the flow rate is much higher on that basis.

....as for second city well no argument there.. by any "sensible" measure, economic, sporting, food, art, music or general culture it is and will remain so!

(...despite the stereotypes in Coronation St, NW tonight etc, M.E.N. et al)

[JackRalston]

Emergency landing today....arrived at AVP to hear a Monarch A330 20 miles from touchdown, fire crews all in position

A330 landed fine (MON269 i think) rolled to the end, vacated A2 and stopped, had an inspection, taxiied to stand 85 with vehicles in attendance.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

LDG retraction problem, hence divert into MAN, ex LGW flight to TAB/GND.
Due to dept tomorrow now after night in hotels in not so hot MAN.
Not quite the same is it, MAN or TAB/GND.

[roverman]

The traffic forecasts which were presented at the Runway 2 Inquiry (30 million pax by 2005) have proved very optimistic but they were drawn up in conjunction with the DfT model, they were not just MAN's dreams. During the heady growth days of the 1990s they seemed plausible, just about. Don't forget that the DfT, even as recently as the 2003 White Paper, was forecasting a 'potential' for 40M pax by 2016, which we all know is way out, yet the paper has not been revised.

It's true that MAN's second runway is under-utilised, but it has enabled MAN to operate higher runway safety standards than Gatwick because the single runway is not loaded up with 50 movements per hour. This enables MAN to operate industry-leading safety policies such as:

- Holding aircraft further away from the active runway (all holding points will be at 137m by the end of this year).
- Restricting the use of conditional ATC clearances
- Using lit stopbars 24/7
- Planning a 6-minute gap in operations to carry out routine runway inspections rather than driving along them at 60mph with an aircraft on short final.

The rest of the world is just waking up to the fact MAN has pioneered solutions to some of the most common risk factors in runway incursion and excursion events, putting safety before capacity.

[MUFC_fan]

The rest of the world is just waking up to the fact MAN has pioneered solutions to some of the most common risk factors in runway incursion and excursion events, putting safety before capacity.


I guess that this isn't intentional...

If they could have two runways with the same utilisation as LGW, they would take that over improved safety any day!

[planenutter]

Could be some more hopeful news for MAN :)

ANA eyes new international routes as part of growth plan (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/01/27/337663/ana-eyes-new-international-routes-as-part-of-growth.html)

For those users who do not agree with young forum users, it is tough. I have always followed Manchester Airport forums since I was about 7 and I always like keeping up to date with all the news and rumours. I no a few users hate me been on here but you will have to cope with it because I am committed to this forum :)

thanks planenutter

[MUFC_fan]

planenutter - keep posting! Everyone has and opinion, and in 5 years time you will be of voting age and paying tax so you are the future!

ANA has been mentioned on another forum and it is likely that they will be prowling around MAN in the near future.

The 787/A350XWB will be the making of Manchester - the future is looking brighter across the globe and the BA/AA/IB tie up will also help boost Manchester's future.

Mark my words!:ok:

[planenutter]

Thanks for the support MUFC_FAN, Much appriciated :)
Biman looking hopeful for a March 28th start as well!
Can't wait to see lots of new airlines prowling around the taxiways of MAN

planenutter

[Skipness One Echo]

The only words of warning I would offer is that there's a lot of utter nonsense talked on some of these boards. If I spend any amount of time reading on airliners.net, I end up wondering what planet some of these people live on as clearly they don't get out much!

From a commercial perspective, what holds MAN back in some airline's eyes is the fact that a direct route to MAN would impact on revenue and connections on an existing, proftable route to the UK, often LHR. Airlines like all large businesses are departmentalised and often what one lot want to see happen another lot is really keen to stop, both for good business reasons.

Former American Airlines CEO Bob Crandall famously said that his strategy of launching multiple B767 service to Europe bypassing the East Coast gateways of Pan Am and TWA would be a winner and would kill the B747. He was right in some ways, but a lot of those services have gone and the B747 is still here, being replaced by the B77W in many cases. Whether the cycle begins anew with the B787 and suceeds we shall see. This is the world of Alliances with World Hubs and connectivity between them, though of course that might all change as well....

[gsky]

MUFC and Planenutter

"Everyone has an opinion"

and here's mine:

A great deal of "wishful thinking" going on here!

[ManofMan]

Planenutter,

Belive me it has nothing to do with your age...I really couldnt care less how old you are, as long as you can hold a conversation and contribute....and you have proved you can do that so keep em coming.

My only point was that the ANA story just does not ring true....we hardly have a massive Japanese focus point up north, just cant see them starting Manchester services whist other Japenese airline are cutting/have cut services to our capital.

Cheers

[TURIN]

Planenutter,

Belive me it has nothing to do with your age...I really couldnt care less how old you are, as long as you can hold a conversation and contribute....and you have proved you can do that so keep em coming.

Quite agree, but the spelling will have to improve. (no? Know surely. Being not been)

I'll wind my neck in before I make a howler myself. :O

Don't use text speak either. :ok:

[MUFC_fan]

The only words of warning I would offer is that there's a lot of utter nonsense talked on some of these boards. If I spend any amount of time reading on airliners.net, I end up wondering what planet some of these people live on as clearly they don't get out much!


It can't exactly get any worse at Manchester can it?

[Seljuk22]

From 29th March Air Baltic will lauch 3 weekly MAN-RIX with B737.
Press releases (http://www.airbaltic.com/public/41603.html)

[ManofMan]

It can't exactly get any worse at Manchester can it?

Three words....

Ken Dodd International.

[Suzeman]

Methinks as far as Japan is concerned, notwithstanding the lack of demand, that the bilateral may still be an impediment to services to MAN?

Anyone know for sure?

Suzeman

[gsky]

Suzeman

dont know "for sure"
but in reality... highly unlikely ANA will come to MAN.

[planenutter]

I'll try to improve my spelling :)
ANA do have a chance up here. I live in a town in North Yorkshire and we have atleast 50 Japanese residents. ANA was speculated a few months ago, I'm sure they will be here in a couple of years

planenutter

[mickyman]

Tis the silly season at the moment I read.....
You all seem to be leaping off the cliff with
the 'planenutter' scat.
Hopefully the last posting by this '13 year old' will
show you how you have been had?

Goodluck.

MM

[OCEAN WUN ZERO]

:)

Planenutter

Good man keep it up but from Skip you should be routing for LBA.

;)

[roverman]

I'd love to see ANA at MAN but the problem, as always, is one-way traffic. It will rely on Brits going East. Japs won't use it 'cos MAN is too far from Buckingham Palace, Tower of London, Harrods, Henley Regatta etc. It is nearer to Edinburgh Castle and Gleneagles but the Shuttle takes care of that.

[planenutter]

I used to live in Manchester, No way supporting LBA :S
MAN All the way

Planenutter

[MUFC_fan]

I'd love to see ANA at MAN but the problem, as always, is one-way traffic. It will rely on Brits going East. Japs won't use it 'cos MAN is too far from Buckingham Palace, Tower of London, Harrods, Henley Regatta etc. It is nearer to Edinburgh Castle and Gleneagles but the Shuttle takes care of that.


It's very close to the Mecca of club football!:ok:

[MAN777]

Roverman

You should have seen Chester and the Lake District last year.

They were heaving with Japanese tourists although with the recession in Japan biting I think Japanese tourist numbers will drop nationwide.

What Manchester really needs is direct China passenger flights, no one can dispute the huge amount of Chinese that live in MANs catchment area.

[MUFC_fan]

MAN777,

I couldn't agree more. A link to Beijing or Pudong is definately what is needed. EK/QR/BA etc. are cleaning up on UK-China/HKG.

[ManofMan]

EK/QR/BA etc. are cleaning up on UK-China/HKG

I do it 4 times a year, always with QR and EK, so many people on the SHA/HKG flights from the UK its unreal.

As for BA ex LHR...would rather walk...QR and EK's business class is far superior...have been considering VS but if it aint broke....Trouble is that i cant see Virgin starting and BA is as likely as platting fog....so from Shanghai that leaves just China Eastern who fly Pudong westbound with widebodies, Chian Airlines only really does Beijing and China Southern to Guangzhou...just cant see who would start it ??

[planenutter]

Here are a few pictures of EI-DUB

http://tasreports.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/ei-dub_33.jpg?w=1024 (http://tasreports.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/ei-dub_33.jpg)

[Ian Brooks]

Geoff Muirhead to retire

Muirhead to retire as airport chief - Crain's Manchester Business (http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/article/20100129/FREE/100129842/1175)

Ian

[Betablockeruk]

Muirhead to retire as airport chief

Geoff Muirhead is to retire as chief executive of Manchester Airports Group, it was announced today.

Muirhead to retire as airport chief - Crain's Manchester Business (http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/article/20100129/FREE/100129842/1175)

[Bagso]

Muirhead to retire as airport chief - Crain's Manchester Business

...can we have a burst of the Hallelujah chorus.....! :ok:

Surely we cannot possibly end up with anybody worse .... can we ?

[Betablockeruk]

Surely we cannot possibly end up with anybody worse .... can we ?

LOL and LMAO!!! Are the council the controlling factor in who gets the big job?

Garry Cook (MCFC liability) maybe available soon :eek:

[lexxity]

Lets hope that they don't look to the East Midlands for a new CEO.

[IB4138]

You are VERY, VERY lucky that Adam Crozier has gone to ITV and is no longer looking for a position, after his last two disasters.

However, would Andy Harrison, soon to leave Easyjet, feature somewhere with the bookies? :hmm:

[jubilee]

There is a God after all.
Jubilee

[Bagso]

They will probably replace him with Director of Works (Rochdale) but you never know....

They could go for somebody really innovative who has worked in airport management who has a good record of accomplishment...... (but I doubt it).

[lexxity]

It's not April 1st y'know Bagso.

[Betablockeruk]

Good post roverman.

I propose Sir Gil Thompson.

[Suzeman]

Betablockeruk

Wonderful suggestion - best laugh I've had for a while - keep up the good work :ok:

Suzeman

[TURIN]

Mark Hughes is looking for a job. :}

[chiglet]

I propose Sir Gil Thompson.

Wonderful suggestion - best laugh I've had for a while - keep up the good work

IF he is still alive, Gordon Sweetapple woud sort out this mess, sorry lot

[MUFC_fan]

Andy Harrison would be a good call.

Richard Gooding?

[learjet50]

Lets dig up George Harvey (RIP) Kick the police out his old house and make hime the new boss..


Get Peter Hampson Back he would do in 1 month what the committee have don in the last year

I Know lots of folks were anti Peter (Mainly the commitee) but with due respect to Peter and his old team they got things done and would listen to any suggestions for improvement..

Peter Has my vote any day


Regards


Gerry X NEA

[TSR2]

Peter Has my vote any day

I'll second that.

[daynehold]

This departure is indeed overdue and most welcome. MAN now has a chance to draw a line under 10+ years of under-investment and lack of clear business direction which recognises that aviation, and not retail, will always be the core driver, even if it makes a smaller direct contribution to revenues.

Well said roverman, at last some common sense.

We can't overlook the fact that a part of Manchester's decline has been caused by terrorism (9/11) and more recently the econominc down turn. However, the rot set in several years ago when key people who had a proper understanding and enthusiasm for aviation and Mnchester Airport started to leave - in my mind, although some out there will undoubted disagree (and probably not mince their words in doing so!) Peter Hampson is one of the classic examples. Those who left were replaced by "grey suited" managers who undoubtedly had completed with distinction the appropriate management courses and were well versed in "PC speak"! But they didn't and never will have the ability to run a successful international airport.

I digress for a moment. I work for a Government department involved in the administration of Justice. Some years ago we underwent a major restructuring and new directors and chief executives were appointed. Few had any appropriate background coming from sectors such as the Post Office and the national Blood Transfusion Service. Needless to say they were clueless and the "Service" has suffered as a result. Now there are those who maintain that if you have a management qualification you have the abilty to manage any organisation. My response is simple = "NUTS"!!

To return to the Manchester CEO theme - at last there is an opportunity to appoint a CEO and management team who has a sound understanding and an enthusiasm for aviation and manchester inparticular. But I fear the opportunity may be lost - there are undoubtedly those out there who will be able to identify better and more qualified candidates - for example the bankers who have done such a sterling jobof managing our economy. Or they may prefer to select an unemployed NHS Manager or local authority director.But lets not also forget that there a general election on the horizon so there will be a vast pool of former MPs to pick from!!

I know I will attract critics some of who may decide that being offensive is their best form of reply or attack. "C'est la vie"!!!

[Ian Brooks]

Daynehold
Very good post, I agree totally when will businesses learn that you need staff
who know the business otherwise all knowlege is lost and has to be relearnt often
taking a long time and at a great cost to the company.
Where I work we seem to get a hight turn over of managers as they are moved around
and all that happens is just as they getting it right they are moved and we are back to square 1

Ian B

[gsky]

Daynehold:

100% correct
They are everywhere!
Not just MAN

Senior executive who are appointed because they can "talk the talk"

They know the "theory of everything"..
and the practical application of little , if anything.

All you need is a massive ego, (self belief) and the ability to "bullsxxt"ad nauseum.
And an ability to bully also helps.

Disagreement, alternate views are not required, indeed are frowned upon, even if the come from experienced people, especially any who care about doing the job "right" rather than looking good themslves.

Local Govt, NHS, DfT, Elfin Safety, Govt Depts of "most things" and many (most?) large business's have the same problem.

Looking good is more important than being good.
You must toe the party line.

Being good means doing the job properly and professionally for the benefit of the business... and its clients and employees.
Many senior managers dont even realise this.

The Government do this.
They set the standards and industry follows.

Its all become about looking good, and it is a total disgrace

End of rant! :-)

[Bagso]

The actions of these idiots is in stark contrast to a lot of the common sense spoken on this forum and some of the names mentioned.

...but sadly reading the full news release suggestes the gravy train just keeps on flowing.

They are talking about two internal appintments.....typical !

So part of the managerment team whose strategy or indeed lack of it has so crippled the place, are it seems in the frame to take over......:ugh:

But hey, what else did we really expect ?

[Bagso]

...can I also suggest that some of the excellent bloggers on here also stick there comments on the M.E.N. response page....

..just be nice to make sure the MEN understand the strength of feeling !:ok:


..trustme you will feel better


Airport chief Geoff Muirhead to retire - Business - News - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/business/s/1190848_airport_chief_geoff_muirhead_to_retire)

...you never know they might even have an investigative journalist who might mount an investigation... (nah maybe not) !

We currently have a second runway and a terminal which might as well be mothballed, an ILS system which appear crocked, a taxiway system falling apart and all this against investment in three other airports which have no benefit to the travelling public in the North West !

[rampman]

not a min to soon .. altho he did have time to run what was once a great airport into the ground .. :ugh:

[ZOOKER]

Allegedly when Sir Gil left, so did many other aviation-minded professionals.
Sadly, every industry seems to be infested with these clackfart-language spouting, grey-suited, MBA totin' butterfly management types.
The number of unnecessary holding-patterns flown around Manchester in the last 12 months is, in itself, a testament to their incompetence.

" value the whole airport experience'=management-speak. :E

[Manchester Exile]

Shrewsbury Lad - your suggest that "If you have such misgivings about the management and strategy I find it slightly odd that you have not taken yourself off to an equivalent airport in the EU..."

I find it not slightly but extremely odd that you would even suggest such a thing. "Oh, work isn't so good, so I'll sell my house, move my whole family to a different country and maybe find somewhere a bit better" is not normal behaviour. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's a truly moronic suggestion. Not a shining example of a first post on PPRUNE.

[Momentary Lapse]

Roverman sums it all up very well.

I'd giggle seeing Hampo back. I'd also add some of the great marketing minds of the 80s and 90s to the list: Paul Connellan, Tim Jeans and Clive Condie, for example.

If I were to get the job, my first 100 day business plan would be:

Seek investment capital to buy out the group from the councils, including the land freehold (I know that'll be expensive but it'll reduce costs, because the ground rent is artificially high as the councils/freeholders treat it as extra dividend. Also a disproportionate amount of it goes straight to C of Mcr, not the other nine).
Install an experienced Board, chair and directors.
Cut losses by selling Humberside and BOH. Keep EMA for its potential.
Increase maintenance investment. Close large chunks of a/f and t/w now while it's quiet, for repair/replacement.
Move most admin functions off-site to release on-site accommodation for premium rents.
Restructure and make office staff re-apply for own jobs on less money. It is fact that most non-operational staff are over-paid versus the wider economy, proven by the extremely low turnover of said staff.
Encourage new staff with relevant experience to stir things up and add new ideas.
Reduce the number of ground handling licences to end the destructive race to the lowest cost, which kills investment and customer service.
Stop focussing on growth, aiming instead for improved customer service/retention.
Use the pricing policy more aggressively to a) move traffic out of peaks, b) increase average a/c size and c) favour quieter and cleaner a/c types.

[Stellas]

MAN closed again due snow until 1030..

[MAN777]

Caught out by weather forecast, expecting light snow flurries, got dumped on (about 3-4 inches) minimal staff available to cope.

MAN will you wake up !

The world is watching

Will the new CEO have the balls to shake this bunch of shop keepers up and give the airport ops guys and gals some support and money to do the job properly.

[Stellas]

Thought councils empty the bins, not run airports :mad:

[MUFC_fan]

Thought councils empty the bins, not run airports


To be honest, their bins operations are abysmal so if we are running off of your theory, then it is lucky the airport is even open...oh wait...

[learjet50]

Re my post of the 29th

I wish the council s would wake up

Let get Hampo and all his old gang back and lets start running this Airport as it should be.

I am sure if Powerful Pierre were returned there would be few NO LOTS of worried people in the Ivory Tower as they have been ploding about for years


There would be one or two and probably a lot more desks being emptied in Senior Management (so to Speak)

Lets have all the Old Gang back like it was 10 Years ago and get this Airport back into the World league it deserves to be.

KING HAMPPO RULES




Regards to all



Gerry X NEA

[Ringwayman]

So it's MAN's fault that the forecast was wrong and so weren't prepared. Perhaps you want them to have all staff at the airport on overtime, which means they'll pass the charges onto the airlnes which means the airlines will say "bye-bye Manchester" as you're now too expensive to operate into.

[al446]

Seek investment capital to buy out the group from the councils, including the land freehold (I know that'll be expensive but it'll reduce costs, because the ground rent is artificially high as the councils/freeholders treat it as extra dividend. Also a disproportionate amount of it goes straight to C of Mcr, not the other nine).

In order for there to be a purchase there needs to be a willing vendor. I strongly suspect that AGMA (all the GM councils) would not wish to sell a source of revenue unless so directed by the district auditor on grounds of poor return.

I have no idea of the distribution of profits but the apparent disproportionality referred to may simply be a reflection of the proportionate holding each council has, Manchester 55% the other nine 5% each.

[MUFC_fan]

Just watching the United game at Arsenal and could not help but notice the advertisement boards.

Whenever watching MOTD you will see Emirates dominate the digital boards with their lowest fares and destinations etc. from LONDON.

HOWEVER, the airline are covering the boards in promoting their 'two daily flights to Dubai and beyond' from Manchester.

So...for all your 'United fan's live in London' people - Emirates PR agents clearly don't agree!:ok:

[MAN777]

I noticed while watching the city v utd cup match last week that many of the digital adverts were promoting companies with no obvious connection to the UK, some were even in chinese or japanese (not sure).

Just goes to show the worldwide pulling power of the game.

Another thought, does anyone know if the constantly changing signs distract the players ??

[MUFC_fan]

Football hasn't changed over the past few years since they has been introduced.

Man United is a global brand and as you say, is watched by millions (sometimes 1bn+) so there is obviously room for Chinese, Arabic and Russian etc. advertisements.

[purplehelmet]

man777
dont think the adverts would distract the players to much during the game,but its bloody anoying and distracting for fans watching it, i wonder how much emirates spend on sponership and adverts each year? they seem to pop up everywhere. good win though eh!:ok:

[DCS99]

"To return to the Manchester CEO theme - at last there is an opportunity to appoint a CEO and management team who has a sound understanding and an enthusiasm for aviation and manchester inparticular."

Spot on Daynehold and excellent post. :D:D

As others have said, it's the same everywhere.
As you said, "Nuts to them all"

Arriving back in March, let me buy you a lemonade :)

[Adola69]

Sorry to dissapoint all you "We love Peter " fans, but the truth of the matter is, that the airports present dilapidated state on its taxiway, apron infrastruture etc., all originated with the said incumbants occupation of Head of Airfield Operations.
What a downhill path was trodden in the haste to meet artificially low-set budgets.
Instead of standing up to the higher managemnt tactics of always wanting more for less, there was a crumbling of strength in the department along with the taxiways etc. When there weren't any other savings to be made, the hatchet fell, by which time the airfield state had passed the point of no easy remedy. During this time many experienced, hard working, knowledgeable and previously loyal members of the Ops team were deemed too expensive and were demoted or given the heave-ho. Others who stayed found the working conditions and demands almost intolerable. (A situation which is almost still the same - same CEO!).

A new CEO is desperately required who will back his workforce 100%, and not continue with a regime of back stabbers and folk looking over their shoulders all the time. Many opportunities have been missed over recent times by people not having or being allowed to get on with their job for fear of upsetting those in the palace of power.

My vote for new CEO would be for Dougal off Father Ted ! - a 110% improvement, and funnier?:}

This is just so the record is set straight.

Throwing distance and trust spring to mind:=

[al446]

Throwing distance and trust spring to mind

Erm, you got me there Ted, what's this got to do with a javelin?

[DCS99]

If you're selected in T2, you have to be scanned.

Acc. BBC:

BBC News - 'No scan, no flight' at Heathrow and Manchester (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8490860.stm)

And they can scan your children as well. :ugh:

[Betablockeruk]

Oh no!! This snow shower wasn't forecast and there's at least 1mm on the ground. Expect MAN to issue a SNOCLO any minute. :uhoh:

[Curious Pax]

Grow up! Might be snowing with you, but nothing at the airport - my office is near the perimeter. Reverse of yesterday when a couple of inches fell, but in some surrounding areas very little appeared.

Despite the usual sniping I thought they did well to re-open only an hour or so after the snow stopped.

[Momentary Lapse]

al446: although the councils own most of the airport land in trust in the proportion 55% Mcr, 5% each for the other nine, some of the newer land acquisitions were made wholly by Mcr, so they get 100% of the ground rent of that part.

Mcr City Council, being:

the majority freeholder of most of the land and the only freeholder of the rest;
the majority shareholder;
the rating authority, and;
the planning authority;

has a vested interest in a) buying land, b) charging over the odds to MAG to use it, c) whacking up the rates bill and d) granting planning permission for anything that'll increase its income.

That's something the auditors ought to look at, if only for the other nine shareholders' benefit, but also for the wider public and the banks that now own a large proportion of the group, which was heavily mortgaged to buy EMA and BOH.

The whole finances are a spaghetti plate of complicated opaque deals that only serve to cream off as much as possible to Mcr City Council at the expense of the other nine. A bit like BA's "loss making" MAN-NY route ;)

[lexxity]

No scan, no flight at MAN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're selected in T2, you have to be scanned.

Acc. BBC:

BBC News - 'No scan, no flight' at Heathrow and Manchester

And they can scan your children as well.

Reading the article it appears as if passengers will be "selected" for scanning. Now if they scan the right people then I don't see that there will be a problem. I'm going to say a tenner on it'll be your 80 year old granny that gets selected. :ugh: