MANCHESTER - 7

[Beancounter1]

Rail Annual Subsidy = £5 bn, baggage screening = none, departure tax = none. Airline Subsidy = none, departure tax = £2bn per year.

[UFGBOY]

Virgin offer free wi/fi as well......... in First

[Facelookbovvered]

The subsidy debate is a red herring, the rail fare is often higher so you are not competing on price, rather the choice in ease of use and frequency.

The railways appear more green and probably are once the infracsture is in place.

For me its the security hassel that clinches it, sure some of the railways staff are not the best, but at least they don't pat you down and search your bags.

At most airports there are signs in the security section that read " our staff have a right to work with out the threat of abuse" yes of course they do, but you don't get that type of sign in retail business, you'd just go elsewhere, the question SRG group4 or who ever should ask is why their customers feel the need to abuse their staff?

Security is big business now, it employs 1000's of staff at UK airports and 99% of it is a waste of time,it defeats the object of flying (saving time) the `you've been naughty trying to squeak a 120ml bottle of water on board' you can take it on if its empty? you can buy 80% alcohol airside

The airlines have the share of the blame, Ryanair,Jet2,baby & Easy jet are all now very strick with the one onboard bag rule, the times yesterday reorted of some one who had to cough another £30 to take a large bar of Toblarone on to a flight,,,,,for F**k sake

Ryanair lead the others follow, which just makes Ryanairs rip off policy seem legit

First class on the rail is now at prices that airlines can only dream of, you get the leg room, no crap over bags or security, wifi and at that price level you are sure not to have to sit next to some smelly chav

Let the train take the strain, the loco's can continue to milk the chav's

[MAN777]

On my tight budget I would never contemplate taking the train unless I got one of the mega cheap advance deals.

Going by car beats everything hands down for me. £30 return in diesel, my own space, my own music, no baggage restrictions, room for the family, OK i have to be careful as to what time I set off to avoid rush hours but it works for me.

Manchester London, genuine door to door about 3 1/2 hours.

No brainer really

Airlines and Trains you have lost my business I am afraid, UNLESS the jobs paying, now thats a different story :)

[Envoy320]

I just booked the train to London for next week...£10 return...if you know when you need to go and come back...as with most flights...then that is a real no brainer.....Far cheaper than the car

[HOVIS]

Heard a horrible rumour yesterday that both BMI and Singapore will be pulling out of MAN in October.

It's not substantiated, so please don't have a go, it is a rumour mill after all.

[lexxity]

Hovis where did you hear that please? Your rumour affects hundreds of peoples livelyhoods, so please could you give more detail.

[HOVIS]

Your rumour affects hundreds of peoples livelyhoods,

I kmow, mine included.

The source is another airline that operates to MAN. Can't be anymore specific, sorry.

Just thought I would throw it out here and see if anyone can put the lid on it. :ok:

[kala87]

Slightly off-topic, but down here in the far southwest our air links to London & the rest of the UK are very important, due to the 1930's-style rail infrastructure, long journey times, and long gaps between trains, especially if you live in Cornwall.

We now have 10 daily returns from NQY to LGW/LCY/STN, thanks to ASW, FlyBE and FR.

As for the argument that aircraft are heavy polluters, have you ever seen the dense clouds of black noxious effluent pumped out by the 125 diesels that serve many of the rail routes in this area?

[barry lloyd]

MAN 777

Manchester London, genuine door to door about 3 1/2 hours.


Can you tell me what time of the day, and what route you take? I've never done MAN-LON by car in less than 4.5 hours, and the M6 in Cheshire is a total nightmare!

It's only two hours by train. Assuming there are no signalling problems/broken trains/points failures/etc, that is:)

[UFGBOY]

Started the base off as crew in '02... was a cracking service we did (especially if you were the only crew member!)... that 1730 off LCY with 50.....you all got your G and T though!!!:ouch:

[Facelookbovvered]

Heard a horrible rumour yesterday that both BMI and Singapore will be pulling out of MAN in October.

I can't see bmi pulling out of manchester, although i suspect it will become very London centric over the next 6 months with even GLA/EDI at risk.

Much will depend on what LH does when/if the takeover is complete, the combination of taxes, LoCo operators and the trains will deminsh mainline services from all regional airports, for much of Europe you no longer have to go via LHR from Scotland or Manchester.

The odd regionel jet into LHR is all that will be left outside of peak times, unless the banks business pick up i suspect regional at LBA will share the same fate, probably down to two aircraft by the winter.

[MAN777]

Barry LLoyd

If I am going early morning then i avoid The M6 in Cheshire / Staffordshire like the plague. Usually running parallel on the A34 then joining M6 briefly north of the Toll. Wizz round the toll, M42 M40 and A40 into London, my destination is near Northolt.

If its an overnighter then I leave about 8pm using motorway all the way.

I also have a satnav with live traffic updates, which usually gives me plenty of warning to avoid hold ups.

[roy2711]

heard a rumour today that Hovis are going to start an airline flying man-lon and man-sin
sorry cant give you my sauces mr heinz wud not be happy:}

[barry lloyd]

If I am going early morning then i avoid The M6 in Cheshire / Staffordshire like the plague. Usually running parallel on the A34 then joining M6 briefly north of the Toll. Wizz round the toll, M42 M40 and A40 into London, my destination is near Northolt.

If its an overnighter then I leave about 8pm using motorway all the way.

I also have a satnav with live traffic updates, which usually gives me plenty of warning to avoid hold ups.

Interesting: thanks - will keep that in mind:ok:

[comet 4b623PW]

Can see why Manchester Airport is supporting this, but i just can not see any major changes to Manchester's trans-atlantic route network even if it does get passed by United States law makers.

http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090520/FREE/905209995/1175/-/-/manchester-airport-lobbies- (mhtml:{F8155BE9-C834-464D-A154-F8A8418A7C5C}mid://00000000/!x-usc:http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090520/FREE/905209995/1175/-/-/manchester-airport-lobbies-for-british-airways-alliance-in-the-us)

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Bless 'em.

[Manchester Kurt]

Travel to London from Manc up to 3times a week, would never ever consider the plane, simply no where near as good a journey, much less flexible and miles more expensive.

Wife often travels down with me, when she does we ensure we book the tickets a week or so before we travel and often get returns for about £15 each.

A 2hr journey, every 20mins is a huge benefit for Manchester, the fact that the rush hour trains are full tells a big story.

For the vast majority of people, over short distances, the plane will never compete with a high quality fast rail service.

[LBIA]

Hi

(PIA) Pakistan International Airlines, Boeing 747-300 AP-BFU, is returning back into the Manchester.

It is planned to operate the PK709/710 Lahore service next Wednesday, May 27th for the first time since they where banned from EU Airspace.

[Ringwayman]

With ATI, there is a greater prospect of BA extracting their digits and aiding AA with restored routes to BOS and MIA at least with proper support rather then the lukewarm response when AA first operated them.

[GLENO]

Re the Car Journey time From London.......


Left BA Cargo LHR tonight at 17.55 and was in Oldham sat with a nice cool beer at 9pm.....route was M25 M40 M6 M56 and M60........the quickest I have ever done this trip in...............:ok:

[Ian Brooks]

Watch those speed cameras matehttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/embarass.gifhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/embarass.gif

Ian b

[MUFC_fan]

Google gives it as 3h 37m and that compensates for traffic which I personally think it over exaggerates around the London area.

Not that impressive - train and plane would beat you!:}:ok:;)

[racedo]

Dunno once was just starting the car at Old Trafford at 10pm as news came on after a game and at 1am was at Tesco Gatwick filling up with petrol...........driving way tooo fast:)

[MUFC_fan]

It would have taken you 3 hours to get out of the OT parking never mind get to London! Trust me! I watch people from the Red Cafe doing it week in week out!:ok:

[The Fulcrum]

More red ink needed for the Olympians!!:{

[Suzeman]

Just found this on UK Airport News....

Senior executives from three global airlines will attend a summit at Manchester Airport's Concorde Conference Centre next month on the airport's position as a hub for long-haul routes. Representatives from Emirates, American Airlines and India's Jet Airways will take part in panel debates on Wednesday, June 17.

Other speakers at the summit include Manchester Airport Group chief executive Geoff Muirhead, Manchester city council chief executive Sir Howard Bernstein, and the chief executives of Marketing Manchester, inward investment agency MIDAS and Salford city council- Andrew Stokes, Colin Sinclair and Barbara Spicer.

Suzeman

[racedo]

It would have taken you 3 hours to get out of the OT parking never mind get to London! Trust me! I watch people from the Red Cafe doing it week in week out!

Left from Top tier when 90 mins up, we 2 -0 up and ran like hell to get to where parked which was in car park where the old cinema was across the canal.

OTOH when WHU got hit for 6 I got home at 1 am after a 4pm Sunday game.

[MUFC_fan]

The Peninsula On-line: Qatar's leading English Daily (http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=Local_News&subsection=Qatar+News&month=May2009&file=Local_News200905252339.xml)

Could this become MAN-DOH-SIN?:confused:

[pwalhx]

OK give me a clue what in the article suggests a Manchester stoppver?

[MUFC_fan]

Nothing.

But...


It is likely to include an onward destination, could be EU
Abu Dhabi is currently a 4 times weekly 772 service, would to be similar to this
MAN is in need of a revenue boost and DOH would help massively


Could happen...

[MUFC_fan]

I dedicate this post to all those Manchester United fans returning from Rome over the next few days.

It was not the best of nights and I can only imagine the 2 hour flight feels like a return flight on SIN-EWR without the IFE...:\

[scrapy]

bmibaby new route to Faro, Starts March 2010

[MUFC_fan]

Oh wow! Another new route! I hope we get a link to London or Dublin next - something else original! :}

[Momentary Lapse]

MUFC fans are more likely to be flying home to Islamabad, or Surrey, or anywhere else other than Manchester. Everyone knows that Manchester's resident footie fans support Manchester City.

DEJECTED MAN UTD FANS MAKE LONG JOURNEY BACK TO SURREY - The Daily Mash (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/dejected-man-utd-fans-make-long-journey-back-to-surrey-200905291791/) explains it better ;)

[Ringwayman]

Some Mancs may also support other teams such as one that was relegated this year from the Premier League.

Interesting that bmibaby's released the timetable through to Easter next year. Plus Faro's only operating 3 weekly. Time for a flying programme to be constructed for the period 28/3/10 to Easter 2010 to see what's given way.

[flybar]

Why does it take so long to get flights out of Manchester on a morning?.
Nearly every flight this morning, and on other mornings, is late!!

[Ringwayman]

Perhaps a reason for the tardiness is that there's single runway ops with 05R/23L being used, as 05L/23R is closed due work in progress with extra taxiing time having to be used given the limitations of the taxiway system?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

BMI Baby's publicity regarding the new MAN-FAO service suggests that the flights will only operate between 28 March and 18 April 2010 (ie. over the Easter period). There is no suggestion that the service will continue beyond these dates. Really strange.

[ConstantFlyer]

Interested in Suzeman's post about the long-haul summit. I was passing through Brussels Airport one morning a couple of weeks ago and enjoyed seeing six Jet Airways A330s all in at the same time - three going east (MAA, DEL & BOM) and three going west (EWR, JFK & YYZ). I'm sure Manchester could handle that type of business. I wonder if Jet Airways is satisfied with its traffic through Brussels???...

On another note, with LHR now having shed most of its domestic routes, and LGW having nothing much in the way of domestic flights to points south of MAN or east of NQY, could MAN emerge as a credible contender to be the UK's premier domestic hub? Be nice to see connections to the likes of CAX, PIK, NCL, MSE, CWL, BOH in addition to the current 11 (I think) GB mainland destinations served.

[Skipness One Echo]

and enjoyed seeing six Jet Airways A330s all in at the same time - three going east (MAA, DEL & BOM) and three going west (EWR, JFK & YYZ). I'm sure Manchester could handle that type of business. I wonder if Jet Airways is satisfied with its traffic through Brussels???...

Two things, they got a good deal out of BRU and they are losing a fortune. Those are supposed to be B77Ws but traffic growth wasn't there.

could MAN emerge as a credible contender to be the UK's premier domestic hub
There's no such thing as a "premier domestic hub", the concept itself is false. LHR still has a fair few domestic connections plugging in long haul into the regions. I think GLA serves more UK destinations than any other, at least it did until a few years back, but the actual numbers are not massive, particularly since Gordon Brown is trying to tax the concept out of existence.

[mickyman]

'could MAN emerge as a credible contender to be the UK's premier domestic hub?'

er No.............Your head has clearly been in the clouds for
some time and you have therefore failed to keep up to date on
the latest 'trends' re: credit crunch.

MM

[MUFC_fan]

I would be surprised if MAN didn't lead the revival of air travel in the UK. BBC are moving a number of offices 'up north' and added to that the process of renovating the most invested city on the planet will start to be fruitful as the economy recovers, I predict MAN to lead the way, even if it is small.

I would also be surprised if we don't see an airline, over the next 5 years, move into MAN and create a hub system. I personally hope for either Lufthansa/BMI or Jet Airways and if, as said above, they are losing money by the flight I would like to think they may make a move to the UK. It would be a major benefit for MAN to grab six daily flights, whether A332 or B77W.

I some how see it a far fetched fantasy in the short term but in the medium (5 years), I would like to think a large long haul carrier would look at MAN.

We shall have to wait and see...:ok:

[mickyman]

Is that the time!................

MM

[Ringwayman]

I'm intrigued as to how the whole BD/LH saga will play out. If BD needs to get more capital into the company, the "quick" way will be sell LHR slots- a.net has a suggestion regarding what destinations to be pared back or cut, with MAN being downgraded to 4 a day. This has the potential to mean that Star Alliance will have seen a large chunk of feeding traffic at LHR from LBA/MME/MAN taken away from it in the space of 12 months. Therefore, will LH add a frequency to FRA and MUC or add capacity, with TK and LX tweaking their ops as well? or perhaps the alleged new plan in the BMI thread about the A330s being brought back may indicate the intention of creating what the Americans would loosely call a "focus city" (but that u-turn would look particularly silly even for bmi).

If any UK destination were to get an Indian airline operated scissor hub, it would be BHX.

[Skipness One Echo]

renovating the most invested city on the planet

I love Manchester but really?????

[flyinthesky]

Manchester Airport is an enigma. They have 3 of the largest UK charter operators (TOM/TCX/MON) putting hundreds of thousands of pax through all year round. TCX calls it home base. The charter pax spend FAR more in the terminals than scheduled pax, yet the airport master plan is to shove all charters into T2 and leave T1 for the 'premium' scheduled traffic. Absolutely ridiculous!!! The airport chases a single rotation schedule operator like they were the golden goose egg and then crows about the airports' international connections. They really need to look at where their main revenue stream is coming from and invest some time and money there. One extra 777 might make the spotters go whooppee in the viewing park but they actively turned away the opportunity of an extra plane from my outfit. Newcastle were much more supportive both financially and operationally. The whole airport is a mishmash of ill-designed and badly laid out buildings and taxiways. They have installed a 'new' guidance system onto stand 23. Half the time it doesn't work and MAG think they are doing a great job. Half the developing world has proper guidance. Manchester has to file an ICAO difference due to its' non standard stand guidance.

Absolutely ridiculous. The people at the top need to take a long hard look and stop spouting about master plans for the next 300 years!

[MUFC_fan]

Quote:
renovating the most invested city on the planet

I love Manchester but really?????


I think you will find there has been more money spent in Manchester since the turn of the millennium than any other city on the planet - that includes Dubai.

[flyinthesky]

MUFC

you talk about a major carrier making MAN a 'hub' with upto 6 rotations a day. GOSH, so many!!!

TCX alone has somewhere between 10 and 15 based aircraft making around 30 rotations daily. Doesn't that count. I guess not because the charters are the great unwashed. Good job the big guys like Singapore are here. MAN really need their landing fees!!! Have you any idea how much TCX/TOM/MON pay compared to these wondrous scheduled carriers. And the charter brigade are treated like dirt.

It's about time the airport woke up and smelt the coffee and treated its existing customers properly and provided the service that they pay them for.

[MUFC_fan]

The six flights a day that I was referring to were meant to be compared against the CURRENT six at BRU.

Also, I have never once doubted the charter carriers - I fly with the 3 times a year minimum! They do provide MAN with a great income yet they are an economic IMPORT. We as a nation need more economic EXPORTS and in the shape of foreign airlines bringing in/transferring foreign nationals.

I think MAN are trying to increase the level of service by doing up the airport. It may be focused on retail but it is not MAN's fault that they need to make money from somewhere - you get what you pay for...

[freightdoggy dog]

MUFC, The money was spent on football players ,deffo not on Manc airport !

[MUFC_fan]

It actually takes everything into account:

New sporting venues (Commonwealth games etc.)
Upgraded sporting venues (yes...OT)
New buildings (Hilton Tower etc.)
New transport links

etc. etc. etc.

I also think it will include the money spent on MA, whether it be a lot or not.

£9.5million investment in Manchester’s Biomedical Research Centre (School of Medicine - University of Manchester) (http://www.medicine.manchester.ac.uk/aboutus/news/BiomedicalResearchInvestment)

Just over a month ago they got nearly £10 million...

[flyinthesky]

MUFC

Yes, you are absolutely right. You get what you pay for. Which in the case of Ringway over the years, has been the square root of nowt. A lovely shop is great, but some of the most confusing taxiway layouts and dangerous aircraft maneuvering areas and shambolic stand facilities DO NOT engender any faith in the running of the airport. And don't even get me started on economic imports and exports! An airport is a gateway - simple. The aircraft arrives and picks up. Goes elsewhere and then arrives back and disgorges. That is the simple economics. It matters not where the pax come from or where they go to, it does to an extent matter how much they spend in the retail outlets. Schedule services are not money makers. they are break evens at best. They just happen to give a supposed cache to the airport. MAN is one of worst airports within the UK at recognising its existing customer base and working with it to improve. And I say that from a knowledegable viewpoint, not as a pruner.

[Skipness One Echo]

MUFC_Fan your posts are often spot on but on this you are mixing up millions with billions....

[MUFC_fan]

Sorry, my bad!:ok:

Does anybody expect any worthy news to come from the conference/meeting or whatever it is concerning Jet Airways et al. at Manchester?

[TheMaskedDispatcher]

Does anyone have the answer to why the single runway shuffle was in full effect yesterday morning? what chaos . . . all together now (according to rumour) . .
'There's a hole in my runway, dear liza dear liza,
There's a hole in my runway, my runway a hole . . '

T-M-D

[Adola69]

But, alas no,
We'll patch it dear Liza dear Liza dear Liza
We'll patch it dear Liza, dear Liza we'll patch it.

But hey there's another hole in my runway dear Liza dear etc etc etc. - and taxyway, and apron - ohhh how I could go on! :{

This will continue for the foreseeable future as the budgets for repairs have been slashed yet again. Taxyway Alpha opposite the AVP will eventually sink into to its own Mud!!
To add to this R 2 is being shut-down from 10.30 - 16.30 every weekday and only open mornings on Sat and afternoon on Sun, thus placing even more strain on the worn out 23R / 05L and taxiway A - what a great piece of forward thinking? ( I haven't even mentioned "Slippery when wet" !!! - I believe that they are considering having illuminated sign boards along the edge of the runway in order to minimise blame / risk :rolleyes:)


I couldn't agree more with you flyinthesky - spot on.

As a pax at T1, ground level check-ins, then UP to security, then Down to shopping world, then Down to a bus then UP again to an aircraft - pathetic.:oh:

[lasernigel]

yet the airport master plan is to shove all charters into T2 and leave T1 for the 'premium' scheduled traffic.

Confirmed that yesterday. Flying out to Frankfurt and saw EK017 on the depature board. Thought it was a mistake but started seeing paxs with Emirates tags on their handbaggage.
On way to gate came across Emirates crew and they were all lost in T1. Apparently terminal changed on Monday, good job I saw it as wife going to Thailand next Monday for months holiday so likely I would have still gone to T2 if I hadn't seen it yesterday.
Bad mistake in changing terminals. Would have been better the other way around with all charters T1 and scheduled T2. Manchester wtf!!!:ugh:

[TSR2]

Bad mistake in changing terminals. Would have been better the other way around with all charters T1 and scheduled T2.

Why ?

As a user of both terminals I personally have no preference.

[AndyH52]

Personally I'd rather they found the cash to build the mid field pier opposite T2 as they'd originally planned. That would provide sufficient short-medium term capacity to put all traffic through T2 and free up T1 (and possibly T3) to be demolished and a new, compact easy to negotiate terminal to be built in their place over the longer term.

However this is but a pipedream and no doubt the current policy of meddling and making do with the original 1960's structures will continue well into the forseeable...

[AUTOGLIDE]

I flew Emirates when they were originally in T1, and it wasn't a good experience, massively cramped and hot at boarding. The gate areas in T1 are too small to deal with large aircraft, including those at the end of pier C. Terminal 2 has a greater feeling of space in that respect.
At some point T1 is going to have to give, it is (along with FRA T1 and most of LHR) is old and horrible to use, though the recent refitment work has helped. The world is moving on.

[flyinthesky]

Whatever 'grand' plan they have cooked up next, will be the same hotpotch of squeezing a quart into a pint pot. It hasn't worked yet and it never will. But they'll stick more billboards up extolling their links/ connections and keep telling everyone they are the worlds favourite. 'My A**E', you only need to take a stroll around the wonderfully airy YVR airport to compare how it should be done.

But we'd better hope for a dry summer otherwise I'm buying shares in a local bucket producer, since the airport cannot even seal out the elements.

All in all shambolic, if I didn't need to work out of here, I'd be out like a shot. But hey, they must make a mint from the viewing park. Now that's REALLY important, compared to flight safety!

[Skipness One Echo]

They CANNOT win this one. They are in the same boat as everyone else. Imagine the response if they raised charges and unveiled a new Terminal built from scratch that would be a fantastic travel experience.

MOL would condemn it as a "Taj Mahal terminal" for a "bygone age". easyJet would kill expansion plans and continue to build at Liverpool. As the main growth drivers are the locos at the moment, and the public travels with them, then it's the public that is to blame. Simple as, and I am not excusing myself!

I want a new terminal!
Pay for it?
F*** off and don't be silly !

Toronto Pearson has a very nice new terminal, but it's one of the priciest airports on Earth. Look at the dogs abuse DUB are getting after the long awaited new terminal is nearing completion. You get what you pay for. Are we willing to pay more? No. This gripe will run and run and run, until there is some form of major market re-alignment.

[TechProblem]

T1 has been re-devloped, although it isnt any bigger, it does look alot better.
As SOE says, there not going to pull the whole place down and re-start, but B-pier will be knocked down and re-built, all to accomadate the A380 on stand 12.

Hence all the work to the taxi way and fueling system down that end of the pier for the last year or so.

I dont know when its going to happen, and im told a T2 airside link need to be built b4 B-pier is demolished. But im told it will be, as you all know B-pier is not good enough to handle 1 A380 + Monarch, Jet2, Lufftie and Tommy Cook.

Once the Taxi way work is complete, we wil have to see what happens next. :rolleyes:

[roverman]

Lots of speculation here about A380 and B Pier. The horses mouth has more on this and other developments.....

MAG World - Welcome to Airfield Operations on MAGWorld! (http://www.magworld.co.uk/airfieldoperations) then click on 'Airfield Developments'

[flyinthesky]

Has anyone got even the faintest idea that pier B could actually handle an A380. This is so much pie in the sky as to be unbelievable. Publicity at its finest. Concentrate on what you've got, not what you think you might like to see. Sod the 380, get the basics right first. MAN WILL NEVER get more than one per day if it's really lucky!!!!!

Meanwhile the rest of us taxi onto stands using a mirror and a blackboard/ fluorescent tube. For the non aviation amongst us, that means real angst in the last few metres for the flight deck and a real risk to the airframe. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN THE 21st CENTURY!!!

No more posts from me. I've had enough of the dog kennel they call the worlds favourite airport. I think I'd rather work from a third world country.

[MUFC_fan]

I am flying to SSH on 17th Aug from MAN with TOM. I initially thought it was a 757 but according to MAN timetable it is a 767 - could anybody confirm?

Thanks.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

I am flying to SSH on 17th Aug from MAN with TOM. I initially thought it was a 757 but according to MAN timetable it is a 767 - could anybody confirm?

MAN/SSH
MON 13:55 21:30 MON 763 TOM876 weekly 04/05/2009 21/09/2009

SSH/MAN
MON 22:45 02:35 TUE 763 TOM877 weekly 04/05/2009 26/10/2009

[Skipness One Echo]

If Emirates moved T2 to T1 on Mon 1 June 2009, when did they move from T1 to T2?

Thanks!

[TSR2]

I am flying to SSH on 17th Aug from MAN with TOM. I initially thought it was a 757 but according to MAN timetable it is a 767 - could anybody confirm?

Yep, sure is a B763. This weeks rotation was operated by G-OBYF

[MUFC_fan]

Thanks - so it is likely to be a TOM aircraft or are they varying between the two?

If so - which company is best? I have been on the new FCA product 2 years ago and it was fantastic.

[aidoair]

It will be a TOM aircraft, Y328 2-4-2 layout 30" seat pitch. They're comfortable enough, at least for the duration of the Egypt flights. Depending on the actual reg of aircraft you get, you amy get seat back IFE, I beleive G-OBYF is still one that has them fitted from when the seats operated the thomson longhaul plus service flights last year.

:ok:

[lasernigel]

If Emirates moved T2 to T1 on Mon 1 June 2009, when did they move from T1 to T2?


Not sure but they were there when I went on Holiday via Dubai to Bangkok last May(2008).

Why ?

As a user of both terminals I personally have no preference


Sorry I fly a lot and would be more than happy to have scheduled flights from one terminal not sure which one but 2 preferable. Nothing worse than being stuck behind clueless passengers who know nothing about security checks and the airport layout, added to which half incapacititated drunkards who think having a few pints at 0600 in the morning is the norm. Not being 'stuck up' as my US company will only let me fly economy. So why do I have to suffer fools gladly twice/three times a week?

[Ringwayman]

I reckon it around summer 2006 for when EK went T1 to T2. Just trying to find the dates when they went T1 to T3 and T3 to T1 (all I can find is 2001 is when they were at T3)

[Skipness One Echo]

Yes I remember them being in T3 as well. So it's been T1 - T3 - T1 - T2 - T1 ?

Blimey(!)

[MANFlyer]

I think you will find there has been more money spent in Manchester since the turn of the millennium than any other city on the planet - that includes Dubai.

I have seen some nonsense on here in recent times, but it all pales compared to this gem, which is saying something when one considers some of the stuff we've seen. What planet do you live on fella, when not residing in cloud cuckoo land ?.

I don't know if anyone has noticed BA are dropping LGW-JFK. Wasn't that route the reason for dropping MAN-JFK....

[Envoy320]

BA would probably drop Gatwick altogether if they could move their flights to LHr....especially when they realise LGW is in Surrey, not London...

Is BA the only "national" carrier in the world that bases all of its flights out of just 1 city....

[Skipness One Echo]

LGW is in Surrey, not London...
Heathrow is in Middlesex not London. The London airport in London is London City.

Gatwick performs a great service in that it has allowed BA to introduce a new cost base into mainline services, the BA B777 services are crewed by staff who are not on LHR contracts so these costs are way nearer the "going rate". These staff also get the chance to fly both long and short haul, something LHR staff do not allow, reducing flexibility. If LHR does get a runway three, we may see a complete retrenching to one base like Singapore, Cathay or even KLM. On short haul, BA lack the flexibility and cost base to take on easyJet at LGW.

In truth, if BA were operating a hub from MAN into Europe, Ryanair and easyJet would only be pushing them ever closer to insolvency. BA screwed you guys over in the past but whatever happens, the old business model struggled then and is dead now thanks to the locos.

[TechProblem]

British Airways to Rename themselves..... London Airways, you heard it here first :ugh::rolleyes:

(Sorry back to the MAN covno...)

TP

[StoneyBridge Radar]

The way any MAN thread inevitably ends up castigating British Airways is tiresome and irritating.

Some of you seriously need therapy to help get over it. :mad:

[MUFC_fan]

BA wouldn't be able to compete with LS, never mind FR and U2 out of MAN! They have too high a running cost. They only work effective out of large, slot capped airports such as LHR and it is the best place for them - as for major airline that fly as a major hub from one city within their country:

EY - AUH
AF - CDG/ORY
EK - DXB
QR - DOH

Probably more...

[ManofMan]

CX to pull Tuesdays and Saturdays flight until OCT 09, at this point they will re-evaluate.

Also heard a rumour last week (and it was only a rumour) that SQ are looking to pull out completely from EGCC

[spannersatcx]

CX to pull Tuesdays and Saturdays flight It's been like that for 2 months now.

They are also talking of reinstating the Saturday flt, but you never know!:sad:

[wools]

It is normal at this time of the year for the Freighter Carriers to reduce flights before starting to build up again from late September tomid October. Only this year with overall volume down by 20 to 50% we have seen a far bigger pre summer reduction. This is typical across the major cargo airpirts in Europe.

[TURIN]

Also heard a rumour last week (and it was only a rumour) that SQ are looking to pull out completely from EGCC

Would that be this one Post #1006 (http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/350163-manchester-7-a-51.html)

[BDLBOS]

Stoney bridge, have to agree, BA are long gone. The problems at MAN are nothing to do with BA anymore.

The airport needs to get back to thinking about service. Service to the airlines, passengers and employees. I am so sick of seeing the place go to the dogs, that I actually used AC via LHR last month!!! Guess what, it was much easier to find my way around LHR T3, than T2 at MAN and I have been using the MAN for 30 years!! It is like a challenge to make it more disaster prone everytime I go!! I am not talking about building a new Terminal, I am talking about making what you have easier to use.

Sadly the Management seem to have lost the plot, bless em. Give it a few more years and the Airport could be Wal-Marts first Manchester Mega Store!! Hang on, maybe Wal-Mart would be better at running the place as an airport!!

[ManofMan]

Also heard a rumour last week (and it was only a rumour) that SQ are looking to pull out completely from EGCC

Would that be this one Post #1006

No Turin, this was from much closer to home, we have BlocK Space Allocation from Shanghai for freight on SQ and have been told (by a member of staff who has just been made redundent in China, hence the rumour) that SQ will pull EGCC later this year.

[zfw]

"Hearing rumours about SIA pulling out next year unsubstantiated at the mo, anyone heard anything on this?."

Post 189 from last November;)

[mybrico]

Made a quick business day trip from LHR to MAN yesterday, first time there in 5 years and what a change. T3 is like arriving and departing from a third world airport, upstairs then downstairs, dark dirty passageways, escalators not working, strange security gates, hand written signs, even the lift to the BA lounge has broken glass held together with black tape. If the rest of the airport is like T3 its not surprising that the likes of SQ would pull out. Just 20 people on the outbound but a good load inbound. How sad to see a once good airport in this condition - more like a bus station. Arriving back at T5 was a joy as ever, a world class facility.

[Higher Archie]

Some thoughts on MAN T3. Recently flew MAN-LGW and the security in T3 was quick and efficient. The on-line boarding cards opened the gates, and I got through the search in approx 5 minutes with none of the taking off the shoes/belt nonsense. Airside ok, but a little confusing with the ever expanding retail, so went straight to the gate. Seating at the gate was fine and comfortable and down the bridge to the aircaft, an older BA 737.

Push back on-time, no taxi delays, probably due to 05L in use.

Evidently the BA crew wanted to get on with their journey, so arrived LGW North 17 mins early. No bridge, so we sat on the a/c for about, 17 mins. When released, had to follow the confusing maze of corridors to arrivals, to arrive, eventually, at the rail station with train chaos.

Having just made my meeting, I set out for the return. Again with BA and took plenty of time to clear LGW security, I timed the security check at 35 minutes after the queue, the boarding card check, then the x-ray, then the shoe x-ray. Airside was fine at LGW.

Flight back to MAN, on time this time. On stand, down the bridge, OK one change of level to Arrivals, but only a short walk, auto exit-gates and back at my car within 10 mins of landing.

MAN may have its faults, but on my lastest trip, it did a pretty good job, especially if you're not keen on spending much time in airports.

[TheMaskedDispatcher]

Just thought i'd let all crews/airline represtentation and unwary Ramp staff know about this one. . .

Now as you all know, tis a great and fundamental rule that arriving and departing pax shall never mix. Witness the herculean efforts put in place to ensure this at MAN! To further aid 'efficient operation' (stop laughing) the rule has been (certainly since it was enforced in late 2001!) that 'Arriving Pax shall have priority over Departing Pax', the thought being that its always quicker pouring pax OFF a plane than finding them to put ON it!

But now. . .
ALL CHANGE!!! - We are now hearing rumours about some form of 'Secret Memo' sent by our beloved Airport Landlords to some (but not All) airport companies (and you can bet NOT the AIRLINES) that the rule has changed. As of now . .'Whoever gets there first gets to complete their tasks' . .so as you can imagine, offloading a full A330 off 29 may have to wait a bit if EK are putting a full load onto their B773 next door! Similarly B Pier will be a hot, stuffy nightmare with arriving pax queueing to get OFF their aircraft. Joy.:D

So when the Dispatcher comes and tells you that the SLF you've put up with for 4hours have to wait a further 20mins to get off due to a Departing flight using the same corridor . . . you'll know why!:eek:

Sensible Policies From the Gateway to the World

T-M-Doorkeeper

[virginblue]

A new service to the continent will be announced later in the week. Not allowed to be more detailed. Watch out.

[MUFC_fan]

Oh you have put the spanner in the works now!

No airline, no destination, no frequency, no a/c type? Oh you tease...:ok:

Could you at least give us a day?

[johnnychips]

Following Higher Archie's post, used T3 Fri out and Sun back. Much better than December, especially really quick security and immigration clearance. One broken escalator. Not a straightforward journey to/from station though, bit confusing if you don't know there's a bus.

[virginblue]

Oh you have put the spanner in the works now!

No airline, no destination, no frequency, no a/c type? Oh you tease...

Could you at least give us a day?


Friday the latest. Will be a five times weekly service by an airline that currently does not serve MAN - and it will be with a "proper" jet aircraft. But for now I shall :oh:

[aeulad]

Austrian to Vienna?
Germanwings to Cologne?
Iberia to Madrid?
LOT to Warsaw?
TAP to Lisbon?

Regards

Mike

[MAN777]

Germanwings A319s taking over the Tui flight to Cologne 5 times a week from October

Could that be the secret ?

[Betablockeruk]

"proper" jet aircraft

That'll be an A340 then. :ok:

[virginblue]

As the news has just been leaked in Germany as far as the destination is concerned and thus is in the public domain....

Germanwings A319s taking over the Tui flight to Cologne 5 times a
week from October. Could that be the secret ?

...I can confirm that your guess is right. Schedule should be out by tomorrow, with bookings possible from noon-time.

At BHX, it was vice versa - Germanwings starting the route and TUIFly taking over (before pulling it). TUIFly will pull out of the English market completely as HAJ-NCL will also disappear. There were times when HLX/TUIfly served LTN, CVT, BHX, MAN and NCL.

[AndyH52]

So not a new service as such then...as ever one step forward, one step back... :ugh::ugh:

[Ian Brooks]

Should be positive and say 1 step back 1 forward as we have known that TUI
was pulling out a while ago so Germanwings taking over is a plushttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif

Ian

[steve platt]

Extra SQ flight on 16/07/09 Takin man u out on there asia tour A/C type is an A340-500 which i believe will be a 1st visit of type.

EK017/018 will be an A380 on 3/9/09 and 16/10/09 and 27/10/09.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

virginblue,

Further to your comment about TUI-Fly pulling out of the UK market completely, are you aware of any official announcement concerning the fate of the MAN-STR scheduled service? Its discontinuation would not come as a great shock, but in TUI's publicity I have only seen references to the MAN-CGN being axed. Does Air Berlin have any intention of adopting this route under their arrangement with TUI? Thanks for any clarification.

SHED.

[MUFC_fan]

Extra SQ flight on 16/07/09 Takin man u out on there asia tour A/C type is an A340-500 which i believe will be a 1st visit of type.

EK017/018 will be an A380 on 3/9/09 and 16/10/09 and 27/10/09.

Any links? Why these dates for the A380?

[conradmueller]

And schedules for the Germanwings flights to Cologne are nearly the same as Tuifly has/had, except Sunday, when the plane will leave man at 15.55.

[virginblue]

Further to your comment about TUI-Fly pulling out of the UK market completely, are you aware of any official announcement concerning the fate of the MAN-STR scheduled service? I

Well, winter flights have long been released but no MAN-STR lfights are bookable beyond Oct.30. So not a lot of doubt about the fate of that route - of course TUIfly is not making a lot of fanfare about routes that are axed.


So not a new service as such then...as ever one step forward, one step back.

It is not a new destination or a new route, but a new service anyway as it is flown by an airline that so far has no flights into MAN. Maybe that's why some eagle-eyed ppruners immediately thought that I was indeed talking about CGN.

[MUFC_fan]

Does Germanwings have any other flights planned for MAN?

[AircraftOperations]

Don't those SQ A345s now have J class seating throughout the cabin? Manchester United deserve economy seats after their poor showing against Barcelona!

[steve platt]

Yes the sq A340-500s do have j class throughout and yes that is all man u deserve.

Mufc fan sorry i dont know how to give u links the info comes from people i work with at man airport.

[Ametyst2]

BMI regional are reducing services from Manchester to Glasgow down from 4 to just 1 flight each weekday from 29th June. All weekend schedules on the route have also been dropped.

[MUFC_fan]

Don't those SQ A345s now have J class seating throughout the cabin? Manchester United deserve economy seats after their poor showing against Barcelona!


They'd just pay for an upgrade!:ok:

Anyway, thanks Steve - should be good! May look at taking a trip to DXB in October!

Shame to see the BMI timetable fall even further - we'll have to wait and see what LH do if and when they take over. The jets are no match economically wise compared to the turboprops on routes as short as that.

[TechProblem]

In relation to Ametyst2's post, Flybe will be taking up the void to GLA dropped by BMI.

[Ametyst2]

Not according to the FlyBe web-site. They have reduced Manchester to Glasgow from 4 to 3 flights a Day on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, onlymaintaining the 4 rotations on a Tuesday and Thursday.

[Momentary Lapse]

Air Handcart will be offering one-way tickets MAN-HELL, from December.

[chiglet]

Air Handcart will be offering one-way tickets MAN-HELL, from December

Is that to Sinki, or inaHandbasket?
One way, or Economy return?

[TechProblem]

Sorry Ametyst, should have made it more clear.
Flybe will take the passengers from the void left by BMI.

Dash's where never full, might fill them up abit more :)

[Manchester_Airport]

I dont know if anyone will know this but on 23rd sept 09 im going MAN-MONASTIR, wondered if anyone knows the size of the plane im on and returning week later,
flight numbers
TOM302
TOM 303

anyone know thanks

[TSR2]

Airbus A320 G-OOPX operated the TOM302 last Wednesday.

[Manchester_Airport]

sounds good, do you think trhey may upgrade it ha i wanted bigger :(

[TSR2]

Would doubt it although TCX are using a B763 on their weekend departure.

[magicmorris]

Where did the info on the EK 380 come from? Ive checked on the EK system and there is nothing..... both flights on the dates mentioned still show 777!

[cyclops16]

Hi Guys,
Now this looks like a done deal,what will it mean at MAN and the BMI operations there??

[EC-ILS]

I travelled through MAN today and had some spare time so had a look around all 3 terminals and I have to say compared with my visit about 18 months ago, the place has come on in leaps and bounds! I couldnt believe it, no more grotty toilets, all escalators working and the new looks in T2 and T1 are great.

Progress in the right direction hopefully they will continue this good work.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

cyclops16,

Well according to the 23 June 2009 online edition of 'Travel Weekly', the deal "spells the end of low-cost subsidiary BMI Baby". If confirmed, this is appalling news for MAN (4x based B733) . And we all know that BMI's MAN-GLA has been decimated, the Transatlantics have gone already, and the MAN-LHR is occupying valuable LHR slots in competition with a vastly improved WCML Virgin Trains service. All pretty bleak for BMI Group at MAN.

I have asked for comments regarding the 'Travel Weekly' article on the BMI Baby thread. I hope that their BMI Baby comment turns out to be an expression of opinion rather than a done deal, but I'm not holding my breath. Good luck to all those affected at the BMI group of companies.

Cheers, SHED.

[steve platt]

MAGICMORRIS

The Info about the ek a380 came from a member of there staff internally. Apparently it will be confirmed and put in the system on 21 august.....heres hoping.:ooh:

[AircraftOperations]

EC-ILS.

Are you sure you did a walk around throughout Terminal 3? I too flew from MAN on Tuesday, and was also impressed with what I saw... having not been there since 2008. However, one escalator was broken and a passing cleaner said that it had been broken for 2 weeks!!!

[Kestrel029]

Yeah I flew from MAN on 4/6/09 to SFB and was quite surprised at the whole redesign of T1. We stayed over the night before and went into the airport to get something to eat on the night but found the area I was thinking of (just before Passport Control with the escalators to take you up to the large viewing window where there was a pub) was inaccessible to non-passengers now. Basically only a Greggs in arrivals area to choose from now!

Still, looked very clean and new, just not too much viewing area now from inside the terminal!

[MUFC_fan]

Sorry Kestral - no complements of MAN terminals allowed - become an unofficial rule:}

[Kestrel029]

Apologies,


It was dark, damp and smelly, like an old people's home.


(better?)

[MUFC_fan]

FR are far from finished yet...

Ryanair boss: Manchester will continue to grow - Crain's Manchester Business (http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090625/FREE/906259985/1175/-/-/ryanair-boss-manchester-will-continue-to-grow)

[zfw]

According to the EK hierachy at Man the 380 "Could arrive at anytime" it is not schuduled as of yet but if the loads require it will turn up.

[TURIN]

but if the loads require it will turn up.

Won't be for a while yet then unless they consolidate the two daily flights into one.

Maybe when Singapore jack it in at the end of the summer the loads will improve. :{:sad:

Anyone got any updates on the BIMAN 777 rumour?:ok:

[IainB]

Cheers for the input.

Flying from Man at 0600 on Sunday, now REALLY looking forward to it.

:bored:

[BombardierCR7]

Travelmole reporting Easyjet to add Marrakesh, Copenhagen and Munich for winter.

[scrapy]

Marrakech - 3*weekly starts October 29th
Munich - 4*weekly starts November 6th
Copenhagen - 6*weekly starts November 6th

on sale next week

[MUFC_fan]

EK looks like it is about to upgrade it's service to three times daily from November:


I've heard it could be a B777-300 (non ER, 364 seats) operating as EK21 / EK22, in at 0635 Zulu, out at 0820 Zulu daily and starting on the 25th October. That's just what I've heard, right...


From another forum (you know which!). The poster is usually quite good and these details seem a little too in depth for bullsh*t!

Maybe no A380 for some time - frequently anyway! Maybe they are trying to target all those DXB bound passengers heading to LHR!:\

[Ringwayman]

Not forgetting U2 apparently have a few more routes to add?!

[MUFC_fan]

Not forgetting U2 apparently have a few more routes to add?!


Not bad during a recession!:}

[MAN777]

3rd service to DXB and onwards to the world !! Not what Singapore Airlines would like to see at the moment !

I would be interested to know how many DXB PAX still go via LHR ??

Can we expect Qatar and Etihad to respond ?

Can I make a confession ? I just used Air France MAN-CDG-DXB as it was VERY cheap, pleasantly surprised as to how good the service was although I am not too keen on CDG terminal 2F it was like a greenhouse with no decent eateries or enough seating.

[AUTOGLIDE]

My choice is between AFA and EK for longhaul going South or East, I prefer DXB to CDG because the latter is confusing to navigate around and security is a pain. However I don't think much of EK's high density business class product used between MAN and DXB, which is unfortunate because the low density J class used from DXB to JNB is fantastic. I therefore usually choose between the two on price.

[MUFC_fan]

I suppose it is the only problem with EK from MAN - the J class isn't anything compared to their new J class.

[pwalhx]

I have to say EK dropped right down my preferred list for my regular trips to HKG in business, QR dfinitely favourites and I cant believe I actually now prefer BA to EK

[TSR2]

My daughter also did MAN-CDG-DXB with Air France and returned direct DXb-MAN with EK. She said the comfort level and service was far superior with AF.
Both flights were B777.

[Anna's Dad]

Just heard from a friend that there are plans to significantly reduce the times Runway 23L/05R is in operation from July. Can anyone confirm this is the case and the reasons behind this? Is this symptomatic of the reduction in movements we have see at MAN?

Many thanks.

[MUFC_fan]

Resurfacing?

I don't think it is due to the reduction in movements as they don't use the runways together, they alternate for many different reasons.

Maybe maintenance.

[partyboy_uk]

Yes, it is for maintenance. See the following article:

Manchester Airport runway work could shift night flight noise : Manchester Airport News Stories (http://www.uk-airport-news.info/manchester-airport-news-080609.html)

[MAN777]

This thread normally slags MAN off, here is my recent experience

Travelled through T2 from and to Paris with AF and would just like to say how nice and hassle free the experience was.

Drop off, check in, security, to gate. 15 minutes !! Check in staff extremely courteous, security staff very happy and chatty, on time departure.

Coming back, through immigration and bag collected 15 minutes again, in car and away, excellent. Immigration every desk staffed, very impressive.

Thanks to all concerned.

[IB4138]

I will echo those sentiments MAN777.

Passed in and out through T3 without any problem in the last couple of weeks, apart from the fact that I once again got asked if I wanted milk in a coffee americano :ugh:, which is a common failing in many UK coffee shops....

.....and before anybody starts:

Café Americano is a single shot of espresso with 6 to 8 ounces of hot water added to it. It is a little sweeter tasting because hot water is added to the shot, not run through the coffee grounds. Although more water is used to make Café Americano this process still produces a full-bodied cup of coffee.

[Musket90]

Useage of 23L/05R is to be reduced and I think it's to meet Section 106 Planning agreements for this runway because of the reduced numbers of movements. I believe the times of use are going to be something like between 0600-1030 and 1630-2030 weekdays and even less so at weekends when it be used only on Saturday morning and Sunday afternoon/evening. I heard the new timings will start in next couple of weeks.

When the old runway 23R/05L requires overnight maintenance then 23L/05R will still be used.

[MUFC_fan]

I'm sorry but this thread has a zero tolerance on complements of Manchester airport - NOT ALLOWED!:}

No seriously...it is looking miles better - maybe the tide has started to turn! Bring on SIN!:ok:

[jongeman]

"I once again got asked if I wanted milk in a coffee americano"

Oh my God, do you think this was a reaction against you not asking for 'fairtrade' americano?? Social suicide :)

[seahawks]

R2 opening times 0630-1030L and 1600-2000L on weekdays, morning only on Saturday, afternoon only on Sunday. Reduced opening due to significant reduction in traffic, not maintenance related. New times due to start July 1st but I believe now postponed until July 4th.

[mickyman]

IB4138

U is followed by prat

MM

[Vuelo]

Another 9 routes to come from EZY this winter according to another site:

I reckon:

VIE
CIA
TLL
RIX
TRN
LYS
LIS
ACE
SZG

We wil see.

[GavinC]

I think we will see continued expansion out of MAN for easy. It's a similar set up to Gatwick in some ways and we all know how well easy do out of Gatwick.
Contraction at LPL in favour of expansion at MAN??

I do think that MAN need to get on with the T3 extension now though. When i flew from T3 the other day i ended up boarding at Gate 7 on Pier B from T1. It was an absolute mission to walk there from T3 departures lounge. Surely the planned expansion of T3 would allow these aircraft to be based there along with FR and EZY allowing for the T1 stands to become part of T1 ! It would make the whole place a lot more logical.
Also it would surely be needed to facilitate the Pier B demolition and re-build longer term.

I do think that MAN can be a great airport again. It's in transition and the work done recently at all terminals has benefited passengers with improved flow through security and improved departure lounges. We need the airport to move to the next stage now though and that should start soon. Recession or not.

[Mouser]

GavinC
Contraction at LPL,Easyjets largest NW base could you explain why.

[Vuelo]

Let's not start the whole MAN vs LPL debate - it's BORING!

[Seljuk22]

I think EZY said there will be 15 a/c in the northwest of England by 2010 - 10 at LPL, 5 at MAN. If all these mentioned routes will come No. 4 at MAN is coming this year.

[MUFC_fan]

Easyjet have multi-daily flights on many/most of their LPL flights - MAN will be more 3,4,5,6 times weekly flights on longer sectors and this will mean more destinations per aircraft.

LPL will remain the biggest for the foreseeable future unless Peel do something stupid.

End of.

[JackRalston]

Since i'm currently on holiday, I thought I might as well my travel experiences through MAN lately.

Last year, went to Atlanta (then over to San Diego) in the US with Delta from T2. We were flying on the day the new security part had opened so I think we went on 16th July. Took DAL65, check-in was slow but it was a very busy flight, they said it was fully loaded, it ended up taking around 1hr and a bit. Security screening was fine, up the escalator, turn left, straight in and straight through, in and out within 30 seconds (seriously). I have to say, at the time (2008) the flooring and look of T2 departures...is a bit old and cheesy. Coming back on the 6th August, had a 15min wait on Taxiway Q because of a/c occupying our gate (202). Passport control was awful, the UK line took at least 1hr i'd say. Staff were friendly throughout, no major problems i'd say.

Currently im in Guernsey and flew with FlyBe from T3 (BEE559). Check-in was fine, did the automatic ticket thingy and straight through to main baggage check-in, no queue and the layout of it all in T3 now looks really good. Then through security, no problems again, looks very good, very well maintained and operated, runs smoothly, in and out within 5 mins imho. Then to departure lounge, looks very nice and clean, fairly busy but nothing major problem wise. Then to stand 1 to board our Dash8, very clean again, enough space i'd say.

So overall, I think MAN has improved incredibly in the past year or so for T2 and T3, not sure on T1 yet as I haven't been through it within the last few years. I am going to Tenerife with mates a week after I get back from Guernsey so i can then give another review of T3 :) flying with Easyjet.

[conti onepass]

what site are these other 9 easyjet flights on

[AndyH52]

Can't see EZY adding 9 new routes out of MAN in one fell swoop - it's just not their style. Assuming the current 3 new rumoured routes start Oct / Nov that surely just means keeping 3 aircraft on base for the winter as some of the summer only routes end rather than the arrival of another based aircraft? Personally, I wouldn't expect a/c no.4 to arrive until summer 2010 at the earliest, roughly the same time a/c no.10 arrives at LPL...

[1station]

EK to ad a third daily service from Manchester this October on a 777-300 effective 25th October. 0820z Departure.

Germanwings new 5 x week to CGN from 25th October (A319)

GSM based 737-800 operating 4 x weekly charters during winter.

Libyan upto 5 per week from Winter 09.

Cimber Air new daily CPH effective 25th October 2009 (B737-700)

Are things finally turning round at Manchester? The extra EK can only pave the way for the A380 sometime soon??????

[MUFC_fan]

One of the biggest expansions at the airport for some time - and aren't we in a recession?!:bored:

Will offset the loss of charter traffic I suppose...

Fantastic news - the revolution has begun folks and you heard it here first!:ok:

[AndyH52]

Surely more a case of typical MAN - why screw SAS on CPH with EZY when you can screw 'em twice over by bringing in Cimber Air on the route too!!! Also, the German Wingsto CGN is only replacing a service being dropped by another carrier and given GSM's past record I wouldn't get over excited by the possibility of a whole four flights a week by a '738. How many IT aircraft has MAN lost this summer through consolidation???

True, some credit goes to EK for building on their existing service but at what cost? What other carriers are going to try and provide services to the far east now?

[MUFC_fan]

Surely more a case of typical MAN - why screw SAS on CPH with EZY when you can screw 'em twice over by bringing in Cimber Air on the route too!!! Also, the German Wingsto CGN is only replacing a service being dropped by another carrier and given GSM's past record I wouldn't get over excited by the possibility of a whole four flights a week by a '738. How many IT aircraft has MAN lost this summer through consolidation???

True, some credit goes to EK for building on their existing service but at what cost? What other carriers are going to try and provide services to the far east now?


The true pessimist...

[AndyH52]

It is said that a pessimist is what an optimist calls a realist... :ok:

[MUFC_fan]

Without the optimist we wouldn't have Virgin Atlantic or easyJet to name a few.:ok:

[steve platt]

The SQ a340-500 on 16 july is now canx.
Flight to be operated by Gainjet with a 757 Reg sxrfa.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Andy H52 / All,

MAN's hierarchy would be very foolish to start playing favourites on CPH or any other route. I suspect that they have learned their lesson from the BA legacy that protecting the interests of one airline customer over another can prove very detrimental in the long run. If three airlines want to slug it out on MAN-CPH, the airport company is best served by standing back and letting the market decide the winner(s), whilst showing no favouritism to any one player.

However, the situation on the MAN-CPH route is not so clear cut. From the days when there were five daily flights on the route (4 by SAS and 1 by Maersk/Sterling), services have been quietly whittled down to just two SAS departures per day. In some respects, whilst 5x daily flights certainly represented overcapacity, the reduction to just two departures daily invites competition. That is what is now set to happen, so if SAS do consider themselves to be "screwed over" then Manchester Airport is hardly to be blamed!

That said, there is a big stretch from booking slots for a route under consideration (as Cimber Air appear to have done) to actually announcing, marketing and launching a new scheduled service. On Cimber Air's website there is no mention of any forthcoming service to MAN, and the city does not feature on its dropdown list of destinations. Now that EasyJet has shown its hand, it is quite likely that Cimber Air will withdraw from the fray. We will see. But you may recall a similar situation when FlyBe and BMIBaby both announced MAN-AMS schedules within afew days of each other. We all know that the proposed FlyBe service was quietly shelved.

As has been pointed out, the three new EasyJet routes should keep aircraft no.3 occupied this Winter after the Summer seasonals have ended. And as CPH and MUC do not have the look of seasonal operations (RAK I'm not so sure?), they will go some way to filling the programme for a fourth based unit for Summer 2010. Any outcome resulting in more than the envisaged 10/5 aircraft at LPL/MAN in the short-term would be a major (if welcome) surprise, as Stelios has been in conflict with his board at EZY to curb what he perceives to have been a reckless rate of expansion by the company. There is no evidence to suggest that EZY is about to cannibalize its LPL operation in favour of MAN (or vice-versa) either. Indeed, I believe there is still an agreement in place with LPL to ensure a significant presence there. Perhaps someone can elaborate if any of the details of such agreement are in the public domain.

Whatever happens, the last two weeks have seen the first raft of positive news at MAN for some considerable time. The third daily Emirates B773 is particularly encouraging (especially considering Singapore Airlines' apparent lack of commitment at MAN). The GermanWings service is very welcome also (pity about the two month gap between TUI's exit and GWI's launch). Interestingly, GermanWings also appears to offer the facility to interline over CGN which is very welcome from a no-frills operation and could open up some very interesting city-pairs for MAN customers. Finally, let's not neglect to acknowledge frequency increases by Lufthansa on MAN-HAM (partially offsetting the hole left by the exit of Air Berlin), and by Ryanair to certain of its existing destinations.

The recession/downturn is far from over yet, and there will still be many more disappointments ahead. The recent downgrade of MAG's debt outlook by the Standard & Poor's rating agency is far from encouraging. The reduction in dual-ops runway hours is a retrograde step. But we seem to have moved from an environment of "lose one lose another" to "lose one gain one". I'll take that for now! We are even starting to see people posting positive passenger experiences on this thread, so the mood is indeed lightening as the 'work in progress' hoardings are gradually removed from the terminals.

We might as well make hay and smile briefly before the next leg of the downturn bites!

Regards to all. SHED.

[Ian Brooks]

Well said Mr Shed

A most refreshing posthttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Ian

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Thanks, Ian.

On a different topic, there is a very interesting discussion on the BIRMINGHAM thread about the detrimental consequences of fitting coin-slots to baggage trolleys. MAG management please READ AND TAKE NOTE before the damage becomes irreversible.

[chiglet]

Didn't BA do MAN-CPH?
Also ref the Trolley Dosh, I landed in Oz [Brisbane] to find a $2 charge for a trolley....Airside..:ugh:

[Ametyst2]

Is the extra Emirates flight a slot request? There is no mention of the third service on the Emirates booking engine or on the Airline Computer Reservation Systems

[Ian Brooks]

I was under the impression that an announcement was due soon, but we shall just have to wait and see

Ian

[Ametyst2]

I managed to speak to my contact in Emirates today and he says they have secured slots at Manchester for a 3rd Daily service from Manchester to Dubai and they have an aspiration to have the service in place in 6 to 12 Months time.

[Envoy320]

March 2010 for the 3rd daily service i would guess at......

[Seljuk22]

Wouldn't a third flight not be better for the winter instead of the summer? I think the European winter is the main holiday season in Dubai and places like Maldives, Australia or South Africa.

If the third flight comes to MAN is this the end of a possible third flight to BHX or could the region handle 6 flights per day to DXB?

[MUFC_fan]

A380 apparently appearing more often at the airport from Jan 2010!:ok:

[TSR2]

Chiglet,

BA did indeed operate a MAN-CPH service for many years initially using the BAC 1-11 aircraft and in competition with Aer Lingus (BAC 1-11 200 Series) and SAS using various models of the DC9.

[Envoy320]

"A380 apparently appearing more often at the airport from Jan 2010! "

It's never apperaed so once would be enough..... to warrant more often i assume??

[MUFC_fan]

Envoy - you know what I mean!:ok:

Did someone say daily?:confused:

[Envoy320]

if they are looking at putting a 3rd daily B777 through MAN then an A380 is unlikely for the forseeable future.....

maybe on the odd sector that warrants it but rarely i would guess.

[MUFC_fan]

Other website saying A380 and B773 - I guess we will find out soon but I am sure that EK are looking to expand on capacity at the airport.

I personally think it will be the B773 as MAN doesn't have the capacity for the number of F seats on the A380 and a number of destinations have more of a financial advantage up front than MAN at the moment. FRA is a good example.

We'll see...

[Envoy320]

They obviously want to increase capacity by applying for a 3rd daily slot and flying a B777 on the route - that increase capacity by 50% - i really doubt they would want to fly an A380 on the route increasing capacity even further......its a big ask at the moment.

[MUFC_fan]

Won't it be approx. 33% increase as we already have 2 77Ws everyday?

I agree.

[Envoy320]

2 x 77w + 50% = 3 x 77W

3 x 77W - 33% = 2 x 77w

confusing but true!!

[MUFC_fan]

:ok::ok:

Been a long day...:}

Yes your right - it is a big increase but MAN can take it.

The end of SQ is now here!

[Envoy320]

I would say SQ may stick around a little while longer maybe reducing frequency further...

depends on the number of pax they have travelling solely to Singapore rather than making connections.

People prefer a direct flight where possible.

[call100]

Compulsory ID card scheme ditched by the Government..............Got you all off the hook eh???
:):):):ok:

[Betablockeruk]

More compliments...

Trip to Belfast. Arrived at check dead on 30 mins (stuck in traffic), checked in, through security, to gate 1, onto plane. Bye bye Manchester.

Back from Belfast. Gate 44, off plane, walk to car park.

No problems. :)

[Hamburg 2K8]

I'm looking forward to going through Termainl 3 a week on Thursday to Hamburg with BA via LHR. Haven't been to T3 before. Is there anyway I can go and take a look at T1 airside if I am in T3? I'm going to be checking in about 2hrs before my flight so will have plenty of time if I can. I am flying from T1 with Ryanair to Dublin later in the year but would really like to see T1 ASAP.

P.S. Has all the work now been completed in T1? Are there completion dates for the work in T2 & T3 too? And any idea as to when the apron work will be finished or when we are likely to see a new Pier B and/or C?

[AircraftOperations]

Can't go airside in another terminal than the one you are travelling from. I asked the same question as I went through T3 recently. Frustrating if you have time to kill as nearly all facilities now seem to be located airside.

[TURIN]

I managed to speak to my contact in Emirates today and he says they have secured slots at Manchester for a 3rd Daily service from Manchester to Dubai and they have an aspiration to have the service in place in 6 to 12 Months time.

Got an email from mine yesterday saying there are no plans for a 3rd service from MAN.

Is it possible that we're all getting a bit over excited here?:suspect:

[MUFC_fan]

Could this mean the A380? Could this mean TURIN's contact is wrong? Could NOTHING be happening?! Oh its all going on at the moment at Ringway!:}

[dh dragon]

I can't see EK putting on a 3rd daily just for winter tourism to Dubai.The Dubai bubble has BURST,Hotels low occupancy and reducing rates in panic.Construction projects at a standstill.The Dubai Govt has asked their Oil rich neighbour Abu Dhabi for financial help ! EK must be expecting to expand to other areas and to swamp the market so that other carriers e.g SQ pull out and leave them to it.

[Envoy320]

i think we need to look a bit further afield than pax going to DXB with emirates....

i wonder what percentage of pax use this service to connect onwards.

theres a distinct lack of other carriers going eastwards in comparison to the number of pax travelling in that direction.

EK would put on a 3rd service that would connect with a lot more of their route network enabling a lot more pax to travel to places other than dxb.

[Vuelo]

Are LS and FR moving to T3 this winter? I understand there are moves to get AA/BA/BD and SN to T1 to allow this to happen as soon as possible.

[Vuelo]

EK A380 due at MAN 07/09/09 for testing, if all goes well it will start daily operations in January 2010.

[MUFC_fan]

So it will be an A380 in MAN instead of a 3rd daily flight. I would have prefered the 3rd daily flight as it would have pretty much made EK the only carrier to fly with when going east in that you be able to get to anywhere with a 4 hour max stay in DXB.

Still...getting the A380 before many major airport - sorry FRA!:}

[AndyH52]

It may be the "pessimist" in me coming out but I'll believe it when I see it. I still don't believe that MAN has the infrastructure in place to cope with a regular A830 operation :confused:

[GavinC]

does anyone know when MAN-Marrakach will be bookable on EZY?

[TURIN]

EK A380 due at MAN 07/09/09 for testing, if all goes well it will start daily operations in January 2010.

So, between now and January, 6 months, EK and MAN will have all the infrastructure and ground support necessary to turnround a 380?

Can't see it myself. The Engineering Type course takes 3 months + on job training and then another 3 months to get it on the EASA/CAA License.
AFAIK no one on the airport is currently type rated.
Unless of course EK are setting up their own base of operations.......:ooh:

Where's me CV?:)

[BHX5DME]

Emirates have confirmed that an A380 will be at BHX on 9 Sept, so if BHX can cope surely MAN can ?

BHX5DME

[Envoy320]

Emirates have confirmed that an A380 will be at BHX on 9 Sept, so if BHX can cope surely MAN can ?

It hasn't been yet......i would wait until it's departed before making that statement!!

[easyboy22]

GavinC

Rak is on sale from today, the new routes are in the booking engine..

Some very good prices for Rak...

[MANFlyer]

It takes a special sort of person to be able to ask this:

Could this mean the A380?

And then later state this:

So it will be an A380 in MAN instead of a 3rd daily flight.

in the same day...:rolleyes:

Haven't seen it on here but believe VS are dropping UVF ?.

[MUFC_fan]

My heart says A380 but my head says morning flight...

[Egerton Flyer]

What if the morning flight WAS an A380:E

[Ringwayman]

VS canned UVF permanently when the route was withdrawn, and didn't make it seasonal. It may be ideal for A330 ops though (as long you're not known as bmi).

[mantug01]

I might have had too much sun but....... I think MAN could just about cope with the A380. The only bottle neck would be for pax at Gate 31.

The new departure lounge is plenty big enough to keep the pax shopping (and not sitting down).

The baggage hall could cope depending how many desks were open.

The ramp is basicly just the same as A330/340 cargo in front, bags in the back not an issue.

It could cause a few small delays while it takes a tour around the taxiways but it would only be one a day.

Bring it on!

[RoyHudd]

3 cancelled flights on the board today; bit unusual. Any idea why the VS to Orlando was scrubbed?

[Curious Pax]

VS75 operated as planned, although was late due to late inbound aircraft. I think VS73 was on the board in error - the timetable on the VS website suggests that it only operates on Fridays 17/4-13/6; 10/7-25/9 and 9/10-23/10.

[rutankrd]

Isn't the VS73 aircraft redeployed to Glasgow to operate VS71 in July for Scottish School Holidays ?

[lasernigel]

Just got back from a 3 week trip. On the 11th June when I departed to Amsterdam the EK flight(midday) was arriving. It was strange to see it taxi past the pier at Terminal 1, come towards terminal 2 and then perform a 180 degree turn through the pad opposite 2 and then taxi back to the pier on Term 1. Any ideas why?

Coming back Flybe from Frankfurt to term 3, why this upstairs/downstairs business? Also find it always seems to be a long way to baggage, tho in no way as bad as arriving at Frankfurt where it's a VERY long way to get your bags!

[Grizzle]

It's sort of simple really

Upstairs is international arrivals and departures.
Middle floor is domestics
Ground floor - well, thats where the runway is!! :8

[rutankrd]

All that up and down stairs business as you put is an attempt to comply with UK Government mandate of total separation of arriving and departing passengers.

A total nonsense really since both will have been vetted de shoes sniffed etc...

These regulations plus the requirement for an increasing number of nationalities to have Transit Visas and ADP are making the UK a place best avoided for connections.

[Rampmole]

The Emrites has to take a bit of a ticky tour because its too big to turn directly off the taxi way onto stand 31 apparantly.

[GavinC]

What i don't get is that at MAN we have to take stupid routes up and down stairs but at Edinburgh all passengers just mingled together in the lounge regardless as to whether they were departing or arriving. It makes MAN look bad and is completely inconsistent!

[conradmueller]

This is a so called "unclean Airport".
EU regulations demand that arriving and departing passengers are kept apart.

[Skipness One Echo]

EDI doesn't, INTERNATIONAL passengers arriving have their own inbound route. The confusing this is that at GLA and STN, even domestic arrivals are kept seperate from the main lounge, even though they are screened to UK standards and have to clear security again if connecting !

I think there is a Schengen issue as well.

[scrapy]

I assume EU regulations allow arriving passengers who have been screened in the EU to mix with departing passengers as there are plenty of airports where this happens (not just domestic passengers) eg Palma

[mantug01]

Saw these pictures of the completed T1 departures on BBC's website, for those who have not been through.

BBC - Manchester - In pictures: Airport's T1 revamp (http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/manchester/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8130000/8130438.stm)

[Guest 112233]

Am I being a moaner ? but the selection of pictures tend to convey a clostrophobic feel (the last one being an exeption) - It may be the effect of the camera lenses but the ceilings seem very low - Good to see a spacious security area though - Other Aerodromes take note. Its nice to see a non tatty terminal - Competitors beware, in hard times, the monied passenger "experence" will infulence where they choose to travel from.

CAT III. (A very non monied SLF)

[TSR2]

Cat III,

I agree, the pictures do not do it justice.

Ps: I thought everyone from Cambridgeshire were very monied.

[JackRalston]

I posted earlier this week about my positive outbound flight from T3 to Guernsey.
Today, just arrived back on BEE558, arrived approx. 10 mins early. The capt. said that as it was a Saturday we were going to do an "engineering check" which would last 20 secs, we held at B4 and the test was then done.
Arrived on stand at 17:33, straight off the plane, waited probably 5 mins for bags to come through and was at the exit to T3 at 17:46.

Very good imo, very clean and no congestion!

Another report in a few weeks as i'm off to Tenerife on the 13th-20th July.

[gazza007]

Been said by a few but must compliment my recent trip to AGP via T1 last Sunday morning. It was extremely busy but the whole experience was positive. Got back late last night, GF's case was on the carousel as we came doen the stairs.
Also had nice experience with Air Finland both ways who were deputising for ZB, has a 321 been tech?. Meal & drinks included both ways. I also think it is a big positive that booze isn't served, especially as there were a few worse for wear coming back.

[Hamburg 2K8]

The revamp of T1 looks great! Bring on the new Pier B!

So what is now were the pub (forgotton the name) and cafe used to be, where u could walk to T3? That was all boarded up last time I saw it in Dec 08.

[johnnychips]

Pub was called 'The Donkey Stone', which for non-Northerners was a friable stone block that women used to buff up their doorsteps with. What is more annoying is that the Burger King went as well, so there's no fast food in T3.

[horatio_b]

The Spar shop just inside the T3 entrance sells hot bacon rolls and the like, but couldn't guarantee how fresh they would be.

[MUFC_fan]

Is Manchester turning a corner? Once one of the best airports in the world with awards to prove it and now the new revamps, which I think look fantastic by the way, are making the place look more appealing to it's customers.

One thing that I have noticed is that people seem to be avoiding MAN for LPL as it is more quite or as they say "Manchester is too busy," "too many people" etc. I think more space is what the airport needs and a new pier would bring that. By doing this it gives the passenger the perception of the airport being less busy. I know it is little things but these can make a big difference.

I personally love flying through Manchester because of the 'hussle and bussle' and while I sit and have a coffee I can people watch and wonder where all these '000s of people are heading - it's great!:}

Long live MAN and I hope the good reports keep coming and expansion and revamp continues!:ok:

[42psi]

Just a quick clarification of why EK take the "scenic route" onto stand 31 ..

The engineers have suggested that the turn is too tight onto stand and may overstress the main gear.

I believe this has been referred back to Dubai for clarifiation/assesment.


In the meantime the a/c gets a "follow me" towards T2 then back via taxiway papa to stand 31 ...... this allows a gentle deviation onto stand rather than the turn.

A number of the pilots do not agree ..... at least one has made the turn anyway :confused:

[scrapy]

Monarch new year round scheduled flights to Las Palmas and Fuerteventura. 2 flights per week on each route.

[TURIN]

Just a quick clarification of why EK take the "scenic route" onto stand 31 ..

The engineers have suggested that the turn is too tight onto stand and may overstress the main gear.

I believe this has been referred back to Dubai for clarifiation/assesment.


In the meantime the a/c gets a "follow me" towards T2 then back via taxiway papa to stand 31 ...... this allows a gentle deviation onto stand rather than the turn.

Not strictly true.

The flight crew mentioned that if they don't get the turn just right then they are on max tiller so there's no room for error.
It also means that occasionally the aircraft is on stand at an angle instead of parallel with the centre line. This excaserbated the original pushback procedure (which has now been altered). It's all a bit OTT but in this age of litigation everyones covering their arris. :ok:

[greatoaks]

Monarch new year round scheduled flights to Las Palmas and Fuerteventura. 2 flights per week on each route


Excellent to see new routes to the canaries from Man ...thank you Monarch

[AircraftOperations]

Do you have to pay for plastic "Liquid" bags in T1 or T2 at Manchester?
I know that they were handing them out for free in T3 recently.

[parky747]

Are there anymore routes still to be announced for EZY at MAN for winter 09/10?

[al446]

One thing that I have noticed is that people seem to be avoiding MAN for LPL

I prefer to use LPL as usually it is cheaper, parking better and cheaper, I dont have to walk ridiculous distances, travelators at MAN usually at least one not working and I can get a pint landside if I wish. It is not about 'too big', I like Schiphol and that dwarfs MAN.

[MUFC_fan]

I dont have to walk ridiculous distances



It is not about 'too big'


Sorry, couldn't resist.;) I understand what you mean thought.:}

[greatoaks]

Is it just me that thinks LPL is looking really tired and in need of TLC ?

A good fettle and a lick of paint needed

Mind you when you have the LOCO's as your main customers then perhaps funds are a little tight

[rapidman47]

Work is just about to start on a 12 million pound terminal expansion at Liverpool:p that lots more than a good fettle and a lick of paint:E

[Betablockeruk]

Something's wrong. I keep clicking 'Manchester - 7' but this is all about Liverpool. :bored:

[al446]

Blame MUFC fan, he started it. It is not thread drift but the merits or not of MAN vs LPL. As far as I am concerned it is just different strokes for different folks as in each to their own. A read of preceding posts may have given you a clue.

[MUFC_fan]

Please...blame me. I was just making a valid point. I didn't start the argument between the airports!


I prefer to use LPL as usually it is cheaper, parking better and cheaper, I dont have to walk ridiculous distances, travelators at MAN usually at least one not working and I can get a pint landside if I wish. It is not about 'too big', I like Schiphol and that dwarfs MAN.


First person to actually compare the two...


Work is just about to start on a 12 million pound terminal expansion at Liverpool


When they get the big carriers over there, we can start to worry.

[pwalhx]

Didn't start the argument maybe but stoked it with the last comment.

Why not just hope both airports remain succesful.

[al446]

Why not just hope both airports remain succesful.

As I do pwalhx.

[rapidman47]

I think you had better start to worry then all will be anounced very soon now:cool:

[EGCC4284]

I keep coming to this thread hoping to read news about new routes, new airlines etc etc etc but its just full of rubbish by clowns. If you haven't got anything interesting to write, please dont bother

[MANFlyer]

Blame MUFC fan

I keep coming to this thread hoping to read news about new routes, new airlines etc etc etc but its just full of rubbish by clowns.

It's not just me then. ;)

[one post only!]

If you want to only read about new routes and aircraft it would be a very quiet thread at the moment!!!! A bit of light banter never hurt anyone. Relax, you might learn to enjoy it.

To be honest I thought the comments about EK parking and the LPL works do add to the thread. An airport is not just about new routes and aircraft. It's what goes on there and also who it is competing against.