FlyBe - 6

[Flitefone]

The strategy presentation from June provides the answers, see page 40, which also suggests that Madrid is a priority.

Flybe | Corporate | About Flybe | Company history (http://www.flybe.com/corporate/investors/presentations.htm)

[davidjohnson6]

The June strategy was devised substantially by a group of people who either have left or are leaving shortly. Be careful about reading too much into it. Perhaps wait until Monday before forming conclusions as to Flybe's strategy over the next 12-18 months ?

[Cloud1]

How do you get to know about the slot requests? Are these published in the public domain? Have tried google but always seem to end up with gumpf about the sale of the LGW slots rather than applications!

[davidjohnson6]

Let me google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=airport+slot+coordination+germany)

[E75toDUS]

Thanks for the link to DavidJohnson6, I didn't know this stuff was public domain either.

Looks like SOU-FRA thrice daily may be on the agenda too using E75, if my interpretation of the FHKD website is accurate

The flight times look sensible for business and (also thinking of BHX-MUC) would be consistent of a strategy of targeting point-to-point business traffic from SOU, BHX and maybe MAN that does not support A319, and/or where an incumbent like LH is charging the proverbial arm+leg.
[EXT-DUS does not fit this pattern as timings don't look that good for business]

I don't see the lack of contracts with mega-corps to be the end of the world as
- a lot of UK originating traffic will be SMEs without these contracts
- the travellers will stamp their feet and/or get creative with travel policies to get flights at times that suit them
- even big companies are getting more price sensitive. Both me and my other half work for large international companies and both she and I are flying mostly with BE, not KLM/LH etc...

[Maverick8701]

Exeter-based Flybe presents half-year results on Monday (11 November) and has said that revenues for the whole year are likely to be broadly flat on last year’s £781.5m. The market is awaiting the outcome of a strategic review by new chief executive Saad Hammad and analysts at HSBC expect the airline to emphasise its commitment to the British market. They also expect Flybe to pull out of some of its Scandinavian activities which they describe as an unnecessary distraction. (Times)

The Weekend Update: IAG, Ryanair, Flybe & more? | E-tid.com (http://www.e-tid.com/the-weekend-update-iag-ryanair-flybe-more/89369/)

[Peter Chube]

<thread drift>

From the link posted above:

Ryanair boss Michael O’Leary acknowledges he is an ‘irritant’ to customers in some markets and plans to stop being the public face of the airline. His proposed customer service improvements are substantive, and are required because the airline is buying 175 Boeing aircraft and seeking to add 30 customers over the next five years. (FT)

30 customers??! A quality typo.

[Cloud1]

Does Flybe have many Scandinavian activities other than Flybe Finland ops? Also I wonder what is meant by focusing on the British market - one assumes and partly hopes it means leisure or European routes....in other words focusing on getting passengers out of Britain.

[planenut321]

Flybe is reporting half year profits of £13.8 million, but is still saying up to 500 jobs might still go...

[davidjohnson6]

Possibly fatal words, but from reading the half yearly report, no evidence that the Nordic operation will be closed - emphasis seems to be on continuing white label operations, similiar to regionals in the USA

[GAZMO]

More job cuts.....500

See BBC news

Wonder what bases will be at risk

[RexBanner]

More than the 300 targeted redundancies in January. Good luck to everybody at Flybe, many are friends and ex colleagues and I personally know what they're going through. 2013 hasn't been a fun year for anyone concerned.

[GAZMO]

I am assuming those staff at LGW are probably top of the list to lose their jobs, plus other UK that serve LGW.
BHD has up to 4 daily flights at moment so I can see some loses here

[RexBanner]

Gazmo, there are no staff left at LGW. What is there now has already been outsourced. Bit insensitive to start speculating where the axe will fall though, I think many of us know where but I'm not going to start compounding the misery on here.

[Wycombe]

Bit disingenuous of the ex-EZY man to refer to them as a "bucket and spade airline" on BBC Breakfast this morning. Not a man laden with charisma from what I could see.

Good luck to all at Flybe.

[nigel osborne]

GAZMO.

Yes 500 jobs equates to nearly 20% of the workforce having to go, a rotten time for such news just before XMAS.

Another £45 million to be cut on top of this years £40 million too.:(

Nigel

[hampshireandy]

I should imagine Flybe are rather envious of how well that 'bucket and spade' airline in the the orange and white are doing?

[justmaybe]

It looks like Flybe are seeking pilot reduction around at least the three figure mark - massive reduction when you consider they have 600 pilots

[davidjohnson6]

Suggested (if painful) reading
http://www.flybe.com/corporate/pdf/FY14-Flybe-Group-plc-Half-year-results-presentation-Final.pdf

The strategic review section is very clear in its message, particularly pages 21 to 26 and how one should expect the airline to change

[Artic Monkey]

hampshireandy

I don't think Flybe give a **** how well they are doing, and I don't think the workforce are in any state to give a **** either. What relevance does that comment have?

[spottilludrop]

Heard rumours there moving all their maintenance activities from exeter to brum

[Kinocker]

That PDF does indeed make for interesting reading. Clearly one of the main action points will be to significantly reduce the numbers of pilots and increase the working hours of those that remain. What is the reason for flybe pilots' flying hours being so much lower than other airlines? Is it overstaffing or more to do with the short sectors flown - or a combination of the two?

Best of luck to all at flybe, it is an airline I have enjoyed flying with over the last few years and one I hope to continue to enjoy flying with for many years to come.

[PAXboy]

For those that are left - time to look for another job. (sorry if that's too blunt but the writing is now on the wing)

[BOAC]

My commiserations and best wishes to all at FlyBe - did some 'time' with them on our 737s whilst with Astraeus and found them all a great bunch. What is the reason for flybe pilots' flying hours being so much lower than other airlines? Is it overstaffing or more to do with the short sectors flown - or a combination of the two? - 'utilisation' is hard when you have short sectors and small bases with limited trip rostering options within a duty day.

[Yak97]

61 / 158 routes not making a return! 7 not even covering DOC's:uhoh:

Bit mean to compare Flybe fleet with Aurigny trislanders, no wonder the ages are so high!

[NickBarnes]

very bad news for all who will lose jobs, if 61 routes are making a loss does this mean most of them will go :confused::uhoh:

[kcockayne]

I hear that it's 200 pilots.

[Alloa Akbar]

Heard rumours there moving all their maintenance activities from exeter to brum

Really? Even after all the money spent at Exeter's facilities?? :hmm:

[Wycombe]

'utilisation' is hard when you have short sectors and small bases with limited trip rostering options within a duty day.

This is exactly why I reckon we will see consolidation at the largest bases and maximum sweating of the assets (pilots and aircraft) at those locations.

There have already been rumours of more routes from SOU and overnight utilisation of a/c, which all adds credence to this being the way forward.

I could see some spokes on the network like NQY, NWI going completely.

Then there is the (mostly very seasonal, but significant) operations to the French regions, the Summer Ops around the UK from JER, I wonder how much of all of this will survive?

[keepitlit]

Worked for British European/flybe, Im truly gutted for all involved. Know the feeling only too well, the scares are still healing.
Brill staff throughout the network.
Fingers crossed and Hope the headline figures can be reduced to a big fat Zero.

Regards

Keepitlit

[Boeing737-8]

At least we now there are still adding flights to their network with Cardiff and maybe Luton with Guernsey and others

[compton3bravo]

Fancy calling Ryanair and easyJet bucket and spade airlines ´´carrying passengers to the Eastern Mediterranean and stag weekends´´. What a numpty. I bet staff at easy are pleased he doesnt work for them any more, but good luck to all at Flybe you will need all the luck that is going I´m afraid.

[mathers_wales_uk]

At least we now there are still adding flights to their network with Cardiff and maybe Luton with Guernsey and others

Do you mean regarding to the Ski flights from Cardiff?

In an article on BBC News Wales website it does state that Cardiff is in a special position as there are no crew based here however it did say that some routes could possibly go.

[GAZMO]

With BE pulling out of BHD to LGW (up to four flights daily) I feel there has to be some pilot and cabin crew job loses.....sad

[davidjohnson6]

BBC article:
As part of the cost-cutting programme Mr Hammad said some routes could "possibly" go. "These are challenging times," he added.


This is CEO speak for
"HR told me I must go through the legal formalities of redundancy consultation strictly so that the company doesn't get sued and sent to employment tribunals, but you should 99.999% expect routes will be dropped with formal route cancellation announcements in a little over 45 days time"

[BOHEuropean]

mathers_wales_uk,

I think Boeing737-8 was trying to say it's not all doom-and-gloom and that new routes have been announced. My own view is that once the redundancies are known, various new (and hopefully interesting/diverse) routes will be announced out of bases that will be kept, such as those applied for out of SOU and BHX (to FRA, MUC etc).

The presentation posted by davidjohnson6 shows that in addition to the 7 LGW routes being axed that do not return any money to the airline, there are 21x routes that do not cover "DOCs and crew costs" and a further 61x routes do not cover "DOCs, crew costs & a/c costs". That's a lot of routes to be weighing up, and even if a handful of those are axed, additional routes will need to replace them in order to keep the fleet busy.

FYI, It's worth noting that the new Cardiff routes are being operated by Birmingham and Southampton crews this winter.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

additional routes will need to replace them in order to keep the fleet busy.

Not when they're grounding, what I assume is, a lot of the fleet!

[BOHEuropean]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the entire Flybe Q400 and E195 fleet leased and not owned, thus they'd have to make monthly payments regardless of whether the aircraft are parked or flying? Unless they want to pay for an aircraf they're not using, or pay presumably costly early-returns, the new management must have a whole new route network up their sleeve?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Most of them are leased.

Somewhere in the depths of the latest figures was a cost of £9M this year and £27M next year for grounding costs! Make of that what you will.

[NickBarnes]

17/45 dash 8 are owned, all of the emb 195 are leased and 7/9 emb 175 are owned, if I've got that wrong then please correct me

[Tonyq]

Don't know your source, but according to P.45 of the presentation linked earlier in this thread, only 8 of the overall fleet of 96 are owned, down from 10/98 six months ago.

[Ondale]

It would depend on the lenght of the operating leases (3/5/7 years). There could by 5 - 10 aircraft coming up for lease renewal in the next 15 months which could exit the fleet in any scaling back of activities.

How can management allow a situation to develop where so many routes dont cover the basic costs? :ugh:

[Richard Taylor]

No wonder Jim French & others have stood down...or have been stood down.

[NickBarnes]

.Tonyq Don't know your source, but according to P.45 of the presentation linked earlier in this thread, only 8 of the overall fleet of 96 are owned, down from 10/98 six months ago.


Ah yes I read what I was looking at completely wrong it is 8 that are owned which are the dash's, the Ejets are all leased

[Artic Monkey]

No I'm not even sure we own 8 Q4's. The 8 include Flybe Finland and I think this is where alot are owned. When we disposed of aircraft last time I thought we offloaded our last remaining owned Q4's (x4)

[anothertyke]

Depends how the cost allocation has been done. You've got 40 routes not covering fully allocated costs but making a contribution to indirect costs . Quite a few routes are off-peak or weekend so that running them on that basis could make business sense. Indeed it wouldn't be easy to achieve the goal of improved pilot utilisation rates running a 0600-1100 and 1600-2000 M to F airline. If the indirect costs have been spread by flying hour, for example, that could give a falsely optimistic impression of the true profitability of the peak business routes.

Most of the 21 routes not covering direct costs will probably have to go but I wonder how a route is defined. Some of what I think of as flyBE routes are no more than one or two a week May to September.

Possibly more informative than the route level is the base level. That's the level where most of the resources are incurred and can be escaped sooner or later.

I really hope there is a securely profitable thin man in there because although we can live without regional Britain to regional France if it doesn't pay, we need the other roles which flyBE performs. Tough times for the third sector.

[davidjohnson6]

Assuming the 7 routes that don't cover DOCs are the Gatwick routes, would these have been profitable had GIP not significantly raised airport charges at Gatwick ?
As far as I can remember, Flybe's response was to appeal to the CAA to try to get the charges set to something more affordable in the hope of retaining a London operation as so much money is in London. When Flybe realised the CAA wasn't going to intervene, they sold the slots to Easyjet as soon as possible.

Slightly disingeneous for Saad Hamaad to explicitly flag up the 7 routes which he knows will cease in a few months and are still operated only because of a use-it-or-lose-it rule on slots at Gatwick, and furthermore he knows that there's very little he can do about the 7 routes which hasn't been done already

[Bagso]

They did actually make a profit ......

Pre-tax profits were £13.8m for the six months to 30 September, compared with a loss of £1.6m a year earlier.


BUT is that operating or does it include the slot sale at LGW.

[Tonyq]

If you read the notes to the accounts, you will see that it is operating profit, excluding exceptional items, such as restructuring costs, US$ loan revaluations etc. The cash from the slot sales won't be in the accounts until the deal is concluded next March, although I think easyJet paid around £7m as a deposit in the period covered by these accounts.

[NickBarnes]

Would flights operated by loganair for flybe be affected with cuts or are they not affected

[Hangar6]

Well please god the job losses are not too drastic,
This story remains me of MOL floating flybe as a suitor or remedy to takeover
A significant part of EI, if I recall the EU found flybe proposal as not being
Believable and even flybe lacking required competancy to operate aircraft and routes proposed, JF has since left , certainly EU did us a favour over here on our small patch, I just couldn't imagine how flybe would be managing the enlarged operation if mol had won, mind you maybe that was his plan, hasten demise of annother two competitors, EI and flybe, best of luck to all concerned

[Yak97]

Reported

The trust of the late Jack Walker - the former owner of Blackburn Rovers Football Club - has sold its 48.1pc stake in Flybe, the regional airline has announced. The sale increases Flybe's free float to 85pc.

Flybe up for grabs?

[Leg]

If there is anything left to grab...

What has become apparent in the last day or so is our new
leader is nothing but a loud mouthed arrogant bully with
idea of the sacrifice made by the workforce and especially
the pilots over the last 6 months or so. No recognition
whatsoever of the pay cut and exemplary customer care
and professional attitude.

What is it with airline CEO's, are they all jealous of
Pilots? Certainly would explain a lot.

Time Balpa grew a pair and stands up to this bully... :mad:

[jarvis123]

Would flights operated by loganair for flybe be affected with cuts or are they not affected

Loganair don't operate flights on behalf of FlyBE, Loganair operate their own routes, they have bought into the FlyBE franchise.

[davidjohnson6]

Leg - perhaps you could suggest to us what you would do now if you were the boss of Flybe, remembering that the company has a high level of debt, is not particularly profitable (those summer profits will be countered with winter losses), has a very high cost-per-available-seat-kilometre and is now vulnerable to hostile takeover ? The presentation on Monday is available to download in the Investors section of the company website

Alas, unlike the USA, there is no cancel-the-debt Chapter 11 magic wand...

[sdryh]

According to reuters news the shares have been sold to blue chip institutional investors? 48%, very hard to get rid of overnight? Who has bought the shares? Another airline or investors?

Thoughts.

[JC25]

Leg

The changes are necessary and should have happened long ago and then we wouldn't find ourselves in this mess (I too work for Flybe).

And please, why is it you think the pilots have sacrificed so much and not the rest of the employees? None of you, zero, were made compulsory redundant because there were enough volunteers tied with a change in working practice. It wasn't a pay cut as such as you work a few days less each year to compensate.

Hundreds of other in the company have gone, 100% pay cut!

I know this is a pilot forum, but please remember that Flybe don't just employ pilots! Every other employee group is going through the same trauma. How about a little solidarity and recognition for the rest of the 2100 staff who aren't pilots.

[Boing7117]

Don't listen to Leg, he's got previous on the Flybe thread for talking nonsense and showing very little compassion to those in a difficult situation.

[toon22]

Not sure Rosedale seeing a spike in the share price and selling up is good news.
I always thought the Trust would be a lender of last resort but now it's a different story. Hopefully the new investors will be in it for the long haul.

[NickBarnes]

Loganair don't operate flights on behalf of FlyBE, Loganair operate their own routes, they have bought into the FlyBE franchise.

Ah okay i get it know, thanks.

[Leg]

JC25, looks like you have conveniently forgotten that a
substantial number of flight crew did leave, and the
Pilot workforce were the ONLY group who volunteered
a pay cut, extra days off you say? You are now showing
your ignorance of what is actually happening.
Get rid of Exeter would be a start, not hard working
professional pilots. An aircraft will not operate without
2 Pilots, but it will without most of the Exeter crowd.

[NickBarnes]

Get rid of Exeter:eek:, are you a complete wind up:rolleyes:

[Alloa Akbar]

An aircraft will not operate without
2 Pilots, but it will without most of the Exeter crowd

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Cloud1]

Get rid of Exeter - that's where payroll are based. You offering to work for free then?

[JC25]

Yes extra days off, four a year I seem to remember.

And the aircraft will not go without cabin crew either, or ops and crewing, without payroll and HR. It takes more than you to run an airline.

You're clearly the ignorant one. It isn't just your job at risk so perhaps you should think about that before throwing ill conceived ideas about.

And I don't forget that many pilots left... ALL voluntarily, as I said before. Unlike many other employee groups who were forced.

[Resurgam]

Bit harsh Leg! We might directly operate the aircraft but we still need guys and girls doing; ops, crewing, and a whole bunch of other stuff behind the scenes to make the operation run.

In the last round of redundancies, the most distressing moment I experienced was in the office at my home base with one of the ground services people on their last day - Flybe through and through, they were absolutely emotionally destroyed by their Flybe career being forcibly ended.

I am a Flybe pilot, and one who may be 'at risk' when the details are announced, but would like to totally dissociate myself from Legs comments.

JC25, just for the record; while you are correct that "None of you (pilots), zero, were made compulsory redundant" a number of colleagues were placed in a position where they felt they had little choice but to take 'voluntary' redundancy.

[davidjohnson6]

Reuters has an article indicating who has bought the shares sold by the Rosedal trust.
It should be noted that some of these investors (includes Quantum Partners LP, linked to George Soros - Google him if you don't know who he is) have non-trivial stakes in the company.

It is possible they are out for a quick buck, expecting the shares will rise in the next few months and then sell, or they may be looking to take a more active stance in the airline's governance and strategic direction in the future. Either way, these are not gentle passive investors content to just sit and wait forever. The fact they hold non-trivial stakes in the company means they will have direct access to the CEO whenever they want and will likely make their opinions known. This is likely to have an impact on how senior management feel able to act.

European airline Flybe's biggest shareholder bows out | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/13/us-flybe-ownership-idUSBRE9AC0G720131113)

[Leg]

Looks like Exeter is moving... to Birmingham ;)

As for threatening the Pilots not to negotiate,
Balpa are toothless so no doubt we will get done
over again anyway. :mad:

Oh and the Academy is up for sale.

[JC25]

Not a huge surprise really, but awful news for those impacted never the less.

Aberdeen, Inverness, Newcastle, Isle of Man, Jersey & Guernsey are all to close as bases.

There will be job losses at all other bases too and at HQ in Exeter.

[NickBarnes]

sorry to hear, thoughts with those affected

52 jobs to go at Belfast 16 of those pilots, 49 in Birmingham 37 in Glasgow, 12 in Manchester and 17 in Southampton

and more than 100 at exeter

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Commercially and company sensitive info, so glad you shared :ugh:

[SWBKCB]

BBC News - Flybe outlines base closures as part of job cuts plan (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24954870)

[lfc84]

press release and reported in many places

Flybe set to axe 52 jobs at Belfast City Airport - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/flybe-set-to-axe-52-jobs-at-belfast-city-airport-29757949.html)

[Chris Gains]

Considering it's been announced to the markets and is available on the LSE website it's not that sensitive.......... Update on Consultation Process - London Stock Exchange (http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=11776140)

[posh747]

All of this is completely been caused by shockingly bad management over the past couple of years! Lower level managers not actually managing an being able to report higher and the higher managers not even wanting to know . If anything good will come out of this new shake up it will be a well run and healthy new sytem from top to bottom!!! Getting rid of bad eggs!

[JC25]

Bluffoldseadog - none of this is company or commercially sensitive. It has been publicly announced.

[fa2fi]

Correct me if I'm wrong. If it's the eJets causing the issue, then why is a non e-jet base closing? Sad times and sorry to see the NCL base go. Used BE a few times and they were always great.

[OltonPete]

fa2fi

The Q400's might be sent to a core base to replace an e-jet and even still operate to the ex-base just the other way round as I have mentioned below. Although I assume it will be weeks or months before the full picture is known.

Liverpool - IOM will be a non-base to a non-base - how will that work if at all? I suppose flybe haven't said they won't overnight crew on the Rock?

I assume INV - MAN will just change to MAN - INV and the same with MAN - IOM? BHX - IOM reverted to the BHX base a while ago so I assume no problem in MAN-IOM doing the same. Possibly hence the low number of job losses at Manchester with a couple more aircraft based than at present?

DJ on the Inverness thread has already queried what will become another non-base to non-base flight - INV-AMS but I suppose that could be done by a BHX crew BHX-INV-AMS-INV-BHX if needs must and this could happen a lot more.

A lot of unanswered questions which I am sure the crews deserve an answer to before the rest of us.

Pete

[Richard Taylor]

A shame about Flybe and Aberdeen.

Given the continuing buoyancy of the area, which is forecast to continue, I thought Flybe might have given consideration to developing the ABZ base, not shutting it.

Not to be - I guess we're in the margins up here.

Thoughts to all that lose their jobs.

[EI-BUD]

Is there collaboration with Bmi Regional or even a Bmi Regional franchise arrangement with BE coming? Bmi Regional consolidate its position at ABZ and BE scale it back, that coupled with Loganair arrangement would make sense....?

EI-BUD

[JC25]

Remember that all the current flights from Aberdeen operate into or out of another Flybe base so there's no reason to suspect that any routes will go, just may be some reconfiguration.

[posh747]

So just step back a few weeks and good people voted to take a pay drop and keep everyone in a job. So company then move people to other bases, now those bases could have people originally there working hard , out of work cause they did the good and right thing to help others! Unions and company please do the correct thing and dont punish those originals!

[Cloud1]

I notice that on the Loganair thread they are recruiting crew - its a shame with the commercial relationship between them and Flybe they cannot come up with something to relieve some of the pain for those crew based at INV and ABZ

[EI-BUD]

There is no reason why Loganair couldn't pick up the AMS route if it becomes logistically unsuitable to the BE operation, Saab 2000's etc.

[Cloud1]

I think it might just work on a W from another airport assuming the domestic connections remain.

Such as BHD-INV-AMS-INV-BHD or BHX-INV-AMS-INV-BHX

Routes to MAN will probably be much easier to sustain on a direct link using MAN based aircraft and crew.

[Maverick8701]

Prepared to be shot down here but could BE not just overnight crew at INV from existing bases like they have done at NQY for the last few years? That way they still have an early flight out of INV and last in also maintaining the AMS.

An option??

[ManUtd1999]

Most of the bases being closed have a lot of flights to other Flybe bases which could be continued. The main exceptions is Jersey. The following routes would have to W patterns (taken from Flybe route map, it might not be up-to-date):

Jersey - Geneva, LGW, Luton, Bristol, Cardiff, Norwich, Humberside, Doncaster, Durham, NCL, IOM, ABZ, INV

IOM - Liverpool, Luton, LGW, Bristol, Jersey, Geneva

NCL - Newquay, LGW, Jersey, Limoges, CDG

INV - LGW, AMS, Jersey, Geneva

ABZ - CDG, Jersey

Guernsey - LGW, Norwich

It's already been announced that the LGW routes will go and I expect a significant proportion of the others might as well. A hammer blow for all involved

[davidjohnson6]

ManUtd - are the routes from Aberdeen and Newcastle operated by Air France as a codeshare with Flybe or by Flybe ?

[ManUtd1999]

Yeah my bad, they are codeshares operated by Air France.

[Leg]

Posh747, very well said sir, Balpa have to now rise to the challenge of the hatchet man Saad Hammed. Bully boys need to be stood up to, but I fear Balpa are ineffective not helped by the fact the CC is populated by yes men, and New Road is weak, very weak. This needs immediate action, or industrial action.

As for the spotters on here, show some empathy, stop wittering on about night stopping aircraft or which aircraft flies to CDG, morons :ugh:

[NWSRG]

Is there no plan-B to fill the gap left by the Gatwick exit? Surely the whole Gatwick route structure could not have been unprofitable? And if so, is there no scope to fly into Luton / Stansted / City?
As a regular BHD- LGW user, flights always seemed to have healthy loads...I know LGW charges were reportedly growing significantly, but to pull all those services in one fell swoop, without offering an alternative, seems to be something of an over-reaction?
Withdrawing the entire Gatwick operation had to have an impact on staff, and sadly we're now starting to see the whole picture.

[All names taken]

I flew BHD-MAN with FlyBe this week and I knew of the impending job losses at the airline as of course did the crew.

Can I just say that given the circumstances I was deeply impressed with the professionalism, courtesy and even cheerfulness and humour of both the flight crew and the CC.

I think they were a MAN based crew (second flight out of BHD) operating an Emb.

Good luck to all affected.

[Pontius's Copilot]

My understanding is that LGW charge Flybe the same per movement for a Dash 8 as they do easyJet for an Airbus with twice the seats. That cost plus the APD charge which is charged both ways on Flybe routes (because they originate in the UK) whilst most (I guess) of easyJets flights are to/from elsewhere in Europe. Add to those costs all the recently publicised inefficiencies in Flybe, and it's easy to see why LGW is unsustainable as a destination.

It also needs to be said that LGW don't want small aircraft with 78 (or 118) mainly 'suits' who arrive at the airport 30 - 45 minutes before departure and go straight to the Gate, they want hundreds of leisure travellers who arrive 2 or 3 hours beforehand and spend loads of money in the terminal retail outlets.

Flybe do seem to be testing the water with their GCI - LTN application, perhaps other routes to LTN will follow though I just can't see it as an airport for London-bound travellers.

[LGS6753]

NWSRG -

Is there no plan-B to fill the gap left by the Gatwick exit? Surely the whole Gatwick route structure could not have been unprofitable? And if so, is there no scope to fly into Luton / Stansted / City?

FlyBe applied for a daily GCI-LTN in early October. Maybe things have changed since then, especially with GCI ceasing to be a base. All of LTN's FlyBe routes link to what will be non-bases (IOM, JER, GCI).

[Boeing737-8]

Maybe a plane based at Luton doing other new routes

[Cloud1]

According to the presentations and stats on the BE website, they are addressing the very low crew hours compared to other airlines in the UK. This could mean longer days or longer sectors on any of the fleet that remain.

Therefore, all routes even those linked to a 'non core base' should still be achievable. In the case of:

IOM-LTN this could be operated MAN-IOM-MAN-IOM-LTN-IOM-MAN

The new application for the LTN GCI route could operate in a similar fashion, such as SOU-GCI-SOU-GCI-LTN-GCI-SOU-JER-SOU as an example. Longer hours on the aircraft = better crew and aircraft utilisation.

It also allows for those key early morning flights to continue (allowing business men or those on onward connections to meet the morning meetings/flights) but still allows for other supplementary routes to be continued.

[Wycombe]

SOU will no doubt continue to play a big part in the future shape of Flybe, but it's somewhat limited opening hours may hinder that increased airframe/aircrew utilisation that the airline says it needs to achieve.

The airport also has limited runway capacity and parking in it's current layout, although I think its fair to say it could accomodate a significant increase to the current Flybe operation before that becomes a problem.

The airport is closed between 2230 and 0630, so any increased utilisation (eg, overnight runs on the Spanish trunk routes) will have to be timed to fit around this.

I recall some years back (it was operated on the 146), there was a night-time SOU-IBZ run on a Saturday night, but the aircraft had to sit on the ground downroute for about 4 hours in order fit around SOU's hours of opening.

I wonder what creative scheduling we will see? Presumably there will also be a lot more "W's" out of SOU (and the other remaining larger bases), to serve the bases that are closing?

[EI-BUD]

The airport is closed between 2230 and 0630, so any increased utilisation (eg, overnight runs on the Spanish trunk routes) will have to be timed to fit around this.

This is no different to BHD though I realise BE don't fly very long sectors from the airport. This has implications for airlines, with under utilisation of aircraft all built around 0630 and 2130...

This is a challenge for BE in that it is a limiting factor and when management compare BE to comparable airlines and identify opportunities for greater utilisation, they need to be realistic in what they can achieve .

Given they have no competitor specifically at SOU a balance had to be struck between the limited opening hours and the fares they can collect as essentially they have the market to themselves...

[Boing7117]

Think it's worth pointing out that while there is a need to improve crew utilisation let's not make the presumption that we simply are not worked hard enough.

Flybe crews do an awful lot of positioning duties encompassed within their operating day, and while the documented low pilot hours suggests room for improvement, a good look at average DUTY hours reflects a need to simply roster us better.

There's several 12 hour duties I've completed over the summer that resulted in less than 2 hours of block flight time.

[nigel osborne]

I certainly hope they don't get rid of the jets and fall back on the much slower Dash-8s, that really would be a disaster .

[Wycombe]

I'm sure somebody who flies them will back me up (or tell me I'm wrong), but I think you'll find that on the sectors that Flybe operate with both the Q400 and the Embraer, the turboprop is only about 10% slower.

I can only speak as a pax, but I've done quite a few SOU to EDI and GLA trips with flight times of around 1hr 15mins. The jet would not shave much off that, I would suggest.

[E75toDUS]

Wycombe

I agree, the speed of the Q400 is not the problem, but the seats are tiny, legroom restricted, overhead bins too small and (IMHO) biblically noisy

This might not matter on some routes where there isn't much obvious competition, but if you're going head-to-head with LH/KLM etc on business routes from BHX/MAN, or trying to tempt business passengers from LHR to Southampton, then I think the jets can justify their extra costs.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

As for the spotters on here, show some empathy, stop wittering on about night stopping aircraft or which aircraft flies to CDG, morons

Leg - this is a thread called airlines airports and routes so its the most appropriate place to chat - the place for empathy is probably terms and endearment. Flybe are looking for a Network Planning Manager so maybe one of the spotters will apply - he'll probably do a better job than current

[fa2fi]

I find the BE dashes to be more than adequate for 2 hour plus sectors. Let's not end up like the States where turboprops are demonised. Theyre pretty quiet, every seat is a window or aisle. Never a toilet queue. If BE are returning to their roots and going back to being a short haul regional airline then they need the right plane for the job. And the e Jets are not the right type.

[Leg]

The dash is suitable for 2+ hours sectors... are you stark raving mad? :ugh:

The jet is the way forward for regional travel, quiet, smooth, fast and used correctly economical. The Ejet is the only one in town, but the future of regional jets will change in time away from Emb.

A spotter as 'Network Planner' perish the thought... :eek:

[CabinCrewe]

and they are certainly not "pretty quiet". I almost perforated an ear drum the last time under a wing. Only suitable for sub 60 min flights in my book !

[fa2fi]

Maybe so but a jet is expensive to run especially if your yèilds are trash. I was in 5A 1hr20min last week. Didn't bother me at all. Some people should get on a Twotter or a Islander if you want to know what loud is! Jets are all well and good but if they don't make you money then all the benefits are a bit pointless. I don't think the UK public in general would avoid a TP thankfully. SK used to do longer sectors on a prop did them no harm. And let's not forget the days when long hauls used to be on piston propelled four engines aircraft. I think we've been spoiled!

[Whispering Giant]

One thing you seem to be forgetting fa2fi, is that the dash is extreamly unreliable !!. They spend more time on the ground tech than actually in the air earning there keep.
The great thing about the Embraer is it is so reliable, it has a dispatch reliability in the order of 99.99 %, whereas the dash barely makes 92% reliability. It is also costly to maintain compared to the Embraer and trying to get any part's out of Bombardier or in fact anytning approaching some form of customer service from them is nigh on immpossible.
The average customer cant stand the dash, it's noisy it's cramped and they all seem to think it is something out of the 1940's - and again in a passenger's word - 'They are prehistoric' !.
Accountant's only like them as they 'appear', i use that word lightly - to be the cheap option based on there hourly in flight costs. But when you factor in there poor reliability, add in the cost of part's and down time required to maintain them, The compensation having to be paid to passengers due to delayed or cancelled flight's they are anything but cheap - there is also the prestige, you may think that may sound vein - but from a passenger point of view - they will more than likely want to travel on a nice shiney new looking jet, than a prehistoric looking aircraft that is like a emu - as it spends most of it's time on the ground.

The jet's do make money - you just need to use them on the right route. They make money when used on routes to the sunshine - but they will never make money running between say Edinburgh and Birmingham. This is a lesson both Easyjet and Ryanair learnt - why do you think they dont do anywhere near as many domestic routes that they used to.
Unfortunatly due to our previous (mis) managment they did nothing about this even when pointed out to them numerous times in the past.

[B Fraser]

I need to go to Inverness on business within the next two weeks and have the option of Bristol or Exeter as my departure point. The cost with Flybe from Exeter is in excess of £400 and I would have to change at Manchester. At least one leg in each direction would be on the Dash-8. I don't mind a bit of discomfort on a short flight but I would need to have my laptop bag under the seat in front of me as it does not fit in the oddments tray that passes for an overhead bin. Given that the time of year means I'll be wearing a heavy overcoat, there's no chuffing way I'll be sitting comfortably.

The orange alternative fly direct from Bristol with an A320 where I can get everything in the overhead bin with a bit of jiggling. There's a huge difference in fares and my company will get change out of £100. I will spend part of the saving on a better hotel and a nicer hire car. They can stick their speedy boarding charges as I don't really care who gets on first.

I do hope Flybe can turn things around as the market needs the competition but until they sort out their fleet and the fares, the future does not look bright.

[fa2fi]

Well maybe someone should tell BE they're getting rid of the wrong plane! My memory isn't what it once was but I'm pretty sure FR and EZY reduced domestic flying due to APD. PIK-STN had many rotations a day, and was canned blaming APD. EZY have recently added or increased frequency on domestic routes recently.

[jdcg]

For me this last post (by B Fraser) really sums up what has gone wrong for Flybe. There have been so many times when I would like to have taken their flights but the price has always been too high. So now I just tend to forget them. And I'm a bit of an airline industry nerd so what about all of those who just wanted to fly somewhere...?

[All names taken]

BF

You don't appear to be a regular flyer and I think you might be letting your preconceptions or prejudices get in the way of rational judgement.

First of all, although I don't like the Dash, mainly because of the noise and vibration, I think you should be aware that you can get a normal IATA sized suitcase in to the overhead bins (sideways but in, nonetheless). More or less the same with the Emb jets. I've done it many times.
Furthermore FlyBe's approach to cabin bag control is more friendly, sensible and practical than the Bag-Snatch Squads employed by EZY, RYR et al.

Secondly EZY now offer allocated seating so you don't have to join the scrum to board.

You have clearly already decided to go with EZY from BRS so why use the forum as an excuse to have an un-necessary go at an airline that is in some trouble? If they ever were to disappear, we would all be worse off.
Try and be a bit more sensitive to those who work there and might be worried about their futures.

[Artic Monkey]

Whispering Giant

I don't think that is a fair assessment of the Q400. I fly it and I am sure I know who you are and if it spends more time tech than it does in the air then I am sure the new CEO would be on it like a wolf on meat and I would spend more time on the ground as well. I can assure you I have not been tech in a significant amount of time. The fact of the matter is that the Dash8, even with dispatch reliability alot higher than what you have stated, is alot cheaper to run than the Ejets. If it wasn't then the Q400 would be grounded wouldn't it. There's a reason why it is rumoured that the jets are being grounded, and that is they are too expensive. Yes the sunshine routes may make money, but as someone alluded to up above, there is not alot of yield when you are operating them on domestic routes, which probably make up 80% of the Ejet's flying. We have to think outside the Exeter bubble and see what is really happening around the network.

"Artic" Monkey

p.s. for those of you who think a Q400 is loud, try flying on a J41/ATR42/S340/Trilander

[nigel osborne]

Artic Monkey,

8 out of the last 9 fire brigade call outs at BHX have been to Dash 8s with undercarriage issues about to land.

Fortunately non have been serious, but these incidents, and the debacle of past undercarriage issues in the SAS fleet, turn to chinese whispers.

The perception, although I think it wrong and unfair at BHX anyway, is that the Dash 8s are a bit of a nail !

[Whispering Giant]

Artic Monkey - you just need to check the daily tech a/c in AIMS to show you the picture, everyday between 5-8 Dash's tech, thats between 10-15% of the Dash fleet. Says it all really.
Think I've only seen a Embraer on there maybe once or twice over a 2 month period !!.

Also the paying public dont want to travel on the Dash - they continually tell us so on there feedback questionairs. There just forced into it.
If the Dash 8 is such a wonderfull machine - why is it that no other European operator is ordering them for there fleets. In Fact Bombardier are having to cut back severly on the build rate. At there current production rate all back order will be completed by Easter 2015 with no further orders forthcoming - because no-one is buying them any longer.

[Artic Monkey]

That doesn't mean it's unreliable. Hell we all know the ejet is more reliable, that's a given, but the dash is obviously where Flybe make most of their money even though it is deemed to be unreliable, and I think that is where the company focus is right now.

[Artic Monkey]

But WG, where is the most money made and where is the most % profit per seat made? The company strategy is revealing this wouldn't you agree?
I check the daily tech page quite alot, yes there's dashes on the but there are jets too. Yes the jet is more reliable (well the 195 is) which is a fact, but which makes the most money? whichever way we argue the toss over this, that will, and is the deciding factor.

[Desk-pilot]

Truth is that the E175 burns slightly more go-juice than a Q400 but costs less to finance and less to operate overall because of less downtime, spares, and disruption. It is a superb aircraft - indeed probably the best aircraft in the world for the kind of high frequency domestic and short international routes that Flybe specialise in. Why do you think BA Cityflyer use nothing else and you can't tell me BA don't know about aircraft operating economics!!

The Embraer 175 is the best decision Flybe has made in a long time when used on the right route...

[Artic Monkey]

Desk pilot

But the rumour is the 195 is to be removed. The economical argument doesn't hold water for the 175 because if the rumour is to be believed, the 175 is staying.
I sincerely hope everything stays and everyone keeps their jobs, but sadly it isn't going to happen, my job included.

[All names taken]

Quote<<p.s. for those of you who think a Q400 is loud, try flying on a J41/ATR42/S340/Trilander>>Quote

Have been on all all of those except the Trislander but have been on the Islander - epically noisy. But that misses the point, Dashes - and turboprops more generally are unpopular with paying punters.

Last trip on a Dash last week whilst walking through the gate at MAN, one of the two guys behind me said, and I quote verbatim ":mad:, it's got :mad: propellers'.

Made me smile anyway.

[Skipness One Echo]

Why do you think BA Cityflyer use nothing else and you can't tell me BA don't know about aircraft operating economics!!

The Embraer 175 is the best decision Flybe has made in a long time when used on the right route...
Desk-pilot is online now Report Post Reply
They're finding the ERJ-195 a better option which is why they're replacing two of them with new ERJ-195s, the smaller aircraft is a good option but the larger makes more money it seems.

[B Fraser]

BF

You don't appear to be a regular flyer and I think you might be letting your preconceptions or prejudices get in the way of rational judgement.

Errrrrrrm, wrong on both counts. I can quote you the price of breakfast at Bristol Airport from memory ! It's nothing to be proud of. I would like to use another carrier and airport for the sake of variety but not at any price.

I think you should be aware that you can get a normal IATA sized suitcase in to the overhead bins

I don't doubt you however a laptop bag stuffed with books and papers will not fit. There's no discussion on that point, it just doesn't.

You have clearly already decided to go with EZY from BRS so why use the forum as an excuse to have an un-necessary go at an airline that is in some trouble? If they ever were to disappear, we would all be worse off.

The price made the decision for me and there's nothing I or you can do about that. The point is why would anyone pay more for a worse experience ? Those with the levers within their grasp at Exeter are probably reading this thread and I hope they are sitting up and taking notice so I hope my post serves a purpose. I sincerely hope that Flybe don't fold. I have a basic grasp of market economics but it is enough to know that if Flybe fold and Easyjet put their prices up, I'll be using Virgin Cross Country. :*

[IB4138]

I'll be using Virgin Cross Country.

Shows how much you know. :rolleyes:

Virgin do not own or operate the Cross Country franchise. It is owned by Arriva, who have operated the franchise since 2007, when they took over,unfortunately and for the worse in my opinion, from Virgin.

[fa2fi]

Well if TPs are so great why is the much highly regarded BA farming out the IOM ops to a S20? How do 'premium' carriers like Eastern, Porter and Skywork survive?

I remember when the SYY-EDI route was operated by a TP. A competitor started, charged up to 50% less. Yet people didn't suddenly switch. The jet lasted less than two years. Despite it being cheaper, and a jet. People may prefer a jet, but I doubt many people change their plans based on what equipment is used.

I have my favourite types but I go for price and schedule, as do most.

[Cyrano]

They're finding the ERJ-195 a better option which is why they're replacing two of them with new ERJ-195s, the smaller aircraft is a good option but the larger makes more money it seems.

Small correction if you'll permit me: BA flies E-170s and E-190s, not E-175s or E-195s, neither of which are LCY-certified. I believe from the Investor Day presentation last week that they are getting 3 additional E-190s.

[jamestkirk]

I can quote you the price of breakfast at Bristol Airport from memory ! It's nothing to be proud of.

To be fair, i think you can get a breakfast + a pint (or glass of house red/white) for 6.95. I mean, a pint at 8 am. You Bristolians are out there!!!:):)

[Alloa Akbar]

I flew Flybe MAN to Exeter on Friday in a Q-400, I wasn't carrying any form of luggage, just a wallet, mobile phone, memory stick and a pen. I needed to get from A-B on time, and I couldn't care less about coffee, noisy props or max cruising speed. The experience was all just fine for me in the context of my needs that day. It wasn't overly noisy, I was comfortable and the cabin crew were exemplary.

I have suffered in the past at the hands of Michael O'Leary and his "Any time will do, you only paid £3 for the ticket" approach and the Easyjet Baggage Taliban.. its all relative and much of a muchness in terms of Low cost travel. As I read the Flybe strategy, they do not want to be an LCC though..??

Instead of moaning about being able to find an airline that meets all of your varying needs, simply choose a carrier which meets your needs on any given day.. its not difficult.

Beef - a laptop bag stuffed with books and papers will not fit I thought a simple hip flask was de rigeuer for you..? Have you moved into Customer complaints division?? :p

[Wycombe]

a laptop bag stuffed with books and papers will not fit

It's all about planning, and understanding what will fit.

I have an overnight bag, into which I can fit laptop, notebook and enough clothes/personal hygiene items for an overnight stop, which complies with Flybe's measurements and fits (just) into the overhead bins on the Q400.

I actually find the Q400 perfectly fine for the trips I have been on in it. You always have a window or an aisle, the view out is good (due to high wings) and legroom is better than some charters I have been on.

As for noise and vibration, after many years sat in the back of C130's, the Dash is like a peaceful haven by comparison.

It does seem to be a bit of a challenge to land smoothly though ;-)

[Alloa Akbar]

It does seem to be a bit of a challenge to land smoothly though ;-)

I'm sure the old shaggy dog story about saying to the Captain "Did we land or were we shot down?" originates on a Q400 ;)

[mad_jock]

MY mates that fly them say its like landing a shopping trolley.

The previous none stretched versions are a lot easier.

[Boing7117]

Unless it's WET, WET, WET and then you've no excuse!

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Will live for that, and a 5kt crosswind :)

[hampshireandy]

the view out is good (due to high wings) and legroom is better than some charters I have been on.

Unless youre in one of the many seats by the engines, when all you can see is, yes youve got it, engine.

[Alloa Akbar]

So, the airline aside.. Anyone got any views on what is to become of Engineering Services and the Training Academy?

[E75toDUS]

the smaller aircraft is a good option but the larger makes more money it seems.

Interesting point, but I wondered if BACF at LCY vs BE a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison. LCY has a potentially super-strong business clientele and the airport setup prevents competitors turning up with A319/737

Whereas, BHX/MAN may have fewer business passengers and few restrictions, so as soon as BE can make a 122 seat E195 work with their cost base, they are at risk of being eaten alive by easyjet/Ryanair? Perhaps adding frequency with the 90-seat jet adds capacity without risking being clobbered by the competition.

That being said, if my very limited understanding of SOU being pretty small is right, maybe BE can make the E195 work from there?

This thread is really interesting to me as some Q400 vs Ejet comments bring home how BE is really different things to different people. E.g. Exeter to Manchester, competing with the train or Manchester/Birmingham to Germany, competing with LH. At this point, I am taking away the idea that the Ejet is maybe too costly to do the former, the Q400 is maybe unsuitable to do the latter. Lufthansa Regional and ArrivaXC are very different competitors.

[JimNich]

The arguement about TPs against jets on domestic routes, financially, is all very well. The simple truth is that the great British public have been travelling on them for decades. They may whinge about the size (it a male thing) and noise (its a female thing) all they like, but we've been doing it for years, up and down the islands for millions of flying hours. Not many pilots out there who haven't cut their teeth on turbo-props.

No-one else has Flybe's poor dispatch rate for the Q400, so its not all the aircraft's fault.

[EMB-145LR]

No-one else has Flybe's poor dispatch rate for the Q400, so its not all the aircraft's fault.

I disagree wholeheartedly. SAS got rid of their entire fleet of Q400s due to poor dispatch rate. Over here in the USA United is looking at getting rid of it's Q400 flying which is contracted to Republic Airways, again due to extremely poor dispatch reliability. The Q400 is a maintenance hog. I fly the ERJ-145 in the US and I have lost count of how many times we have been asked to operate a flight in place of a tech Q400 in the past six months. I did it just last week in Denver.

[SWBKCB]

They may whinge about the size (it a male thing) and noise (its a female thing)

I've been curious about the differing comments about the pax reaction to the Dash8, so have discussed with a number of colleagues (mainly female) who travel regularly from here in Newcastle to our offices in Exeter - it is one of the few domestic routes we are allowed to fly (so long as it is cheaper than the train, which it normally is unless last minute).

Most have responded as if I'm stupid and just regarded it as a smaller aircraft but otherwise no different to the EZY, BAW, etc they are used to.

Not bothered about propellers, no mention of noise and most comments about carry-on's was how much people brought on! Main comment was around timing and frequency, although most accept they are lucky there is a service at all. The alternative is EZY to BRS then hire car - most would rather chew their own arm off than take the train (6 hours...).

[spottilludrop]

Sounds a tall yarn ,cannot see a company such as SAS cocking up like that ,spotters urban myth more like,.......Unless of course you have some facts supporting your tale in which case i would stand corrected

[Tonyq]

Go read the accident reports of the time, if you need convincing :=

Plenty of links here, under "Major landing gear incidents"

Bombardier Dash 8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Dash_8#Incidents_and_accidents)

[MonsieurMalchance]

Terribly nice of Bombardier to pay compensation for faults that are caused by shoddy maintenance.

SAS orders 27 Bombardier aircraft in Q400 settlement deal (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/sas-orders-27-bombardier-aircraft-in-q400-settlement-deal-222108/)

"The details of the agreement are confidential but SAS Group confirms the total financial compensation is slightly more than SEK 1 billion ($164 million) in the form of a cash payment and credits for future firm and optional aircraft orders”

Considering how important reputation is to any aircraft manufacturer I really can't see Bombardier agreeing to take this hit if there was any suspicion that these particular issues were caused by poor SAS maintenance.

None of the reports on the specific accidents seem to point the finger at SAS either. Yes, they had maintenance/safety issues around the same time, but there is nothing to suggest it was this that caused the problems with the Q400.

[spottilludrop]

As suspected total :mad: and rumour i also could find nothing that suggested SAS were guilty of poor maintenance leading to landing gear failure , spotter nonsense as per usual

No wonder we are viewed as a joke on here by those in the industry we are not pilots we are not engineers we are not ATC we are enthusiasts lets face that fact and post accordingly and stop giving the many knockers out there ammo

Im proud to be a spotter long may that continue

[Cloud1]

Time to interrupt those who have naff all knowledge on Flybe, it's aircraft and it's product.

Cut with the whinging over aircraft type. Props, jets, bloody pigs that fly I don't care what it looks or sounds like if it gets me from A to B who cares!! Those that prefer a jet pay no more for the privilege over a prop despite what some may think. Passengers do NOT care - it is a misconception and if they did care the likes of Flybe, Aurigny, Blue Islands, Austrian (Tyrolean), ANA, Qantas link, Air Baltic, Aer Arran, CityWing, Luxair, Skywork, Air Berlin to name a few would not be here today. They all operate props on a number of their routes and in some cases all.

The SAS Q400 incident happened twice - both with SAS!! An ANA aircraft landed without a nose gear just like Southwest's B737, Blue Islands ATR, Manx2 Jerstream 31 - it happens. There was huge attention on SAS maintenance abilities hence why a lot of their aircraft went to Flybe afterwards for maintenance.

spottilludrop - no need to get aggressive or emotional. Try and just acknowledge someone's contribution and if you don't agree tell them that but simply and without the accompanying tone.

500 jobs at risk, a great airline that will pull through at the end of it

[NickBarnes]

Well said cloud1 :D

[EMB-145LR]

The SAS landing gear incidents were just a very small percentage of the problems encountered with the Q400. The problem is dispatch reliability. The Q goes tech a lot. At Republic the current dispatch reliability is 89.7%, that is appalling, utterly, utterly appalling. Colgan had the same problem when they operated the type. The figure of 92% dispatch reliability for the Flybe Qs is equally appalling.

At my company we operate 244 ERJ-145s. The average age of our fleet is 9 years old. Our current dispatch reliability is 99.48% and our company is worried that that is not good enough.

[Jack1985]

ATR say the dispatch reliability of the 72-500 is over 99%, however I know of quite a lot of tech incidents with that type, so is that figure over inflated?

[EI-BUD]

Props, jets, bloody pigs that fly I don't care what it looks or sounds like
if it gets me from A to B who cares!! Those that prefer a jet pay no more for
the privilege over a prop despite what some may think. Passengers do NOT care -
it is a misconception and if they did care the likes of Flybe, Aurigny, Blue
Islands, Austrian (Tyrolean), ANA, Qantas link, Air Baltic, Aer Arran, CityWing,
Luxair, Skywork, Air Berlin to name a few would not be here today. They all
operate props on a number of their routes and in some cases all.



Cloud1

As an aside from the debate about Q400 and dispatch reliability, I highly disagree with your comments on it being irrelevant whether it is prop or jet. I also disagree that 'those that prefer a jet pay for the privilege.

In Belfast as an example, I will not fly Flybe as I dont like prop. IMHO, this plane is uncomforable, cramped, is awful in windy weather.

Many people in Belfast I have heard say things like I dont like flying on those small flybe planes, the ones with the propellers. This is common. many routes from belfast e.g LBA there is not alternative.

As for your comment re paying for the priviledge of flying on a jet. easyJet mostly always cheaper on competing routes, e.g. LGW, MAN BHX GLA EDI on a 319 over a 400 on BE ex BHD.

Aer Lingus 319 to LGW usually cheaper than Flybe Q400 which now travels this routes on many flights. I certainly wouldn't like to be on a prop all the way down to LGW from BHD and also the chances of sitting where the engines block my view. no thanks.

EI-BUD

[NickBarnes]

I really can't see problems with people and the Q400, your rarely on it it for more than an hour, it's not cramped, shows how silly people are just because we are in 2013 prop aircraft must be ancient and 20 years old

[JC25]

Ok, I think we can all agree now that some people do not like flying on props. But I think a lot of people here are overstating how much of a deal breaker it really is, especially on short sectors. The truth is that most people frankly don't give a toss as long they get from A to B at a convenient time and a reasonable cost.

I have been working on the Q400 for about 7 years an yes I have heard a significant number of people moan and complain that they don't like it. But they are massively outnumbered by the people who comment on a pleasant flight. Even more massively outnumbered by people who just don't give a damn either way.

The fact is that the Q400 is right for the job on the vast majority of our network and without it many routes just would not work. It may not be to everyone's liking, but nothing would be.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

As has already been said the sector lengths on turbo props are usually only small though.

What about after next year? Is the Dash going to be used on the Sun Routes?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Does that mean no more of those routes or no more Embraers? If you can give away that info!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

when we have Embraers.

Yes but when its only Embraer pilots who are at risk AND the fact that the Embraer isn't right for Flybe isn't the writing on the wall?

[EI-BUD]

shows how silly people are just because we are in 2013 prop aircraft must be
ancient and 20 years old


Thank you Nick Barnes, but call it silly or otherwise, I have expressed my view. Easy to dismiss somebody else's opinion. Yours is no more valid than mine.

[NickBarnes]

I agree props may not be everyone's cup of tea I just get annoyed when people suggest just because it has propellers its old and horrible and loud even before they step on it, i was at the airport and heard people saying surely thats not our plane it must be 20 years old, when actually it was a 6 month old flybe Q400. Everyone has their opinion you prefer the jets which is fair enough I don't really mind if I were to get a jet or a prop if I was on a flight for less than an hour, as long as I get there safely and comfortabley that's the main thing.

[NickBarnes]

But I do agree on certain routes flybe are more expensive than there rivals with the jets

[Vapor]

They should have kept on to the 146's.... It seems to have all gone pear shaped since then :E

[stab3.5up]

146's. Tosh its these new fangled land planes. What was wrong with an empire flying boat or the queen mary!

[bad bear]

Clearly these redundancies affect all sections of the company, but, I am curious as to whether the pilot redundancies are being done on LIFO, can anyone comment? Is there a chance that various airports and suppliers will reduce their costs to make some of the 60+ unprofitable routes saveable and reduce the number of jobs at risk?

bb

[Lord Spandex Masher]

It's more FIFO than LIFO.

[JimNich]

BadBear

Don't quote me on this because I'm now 7 months out of the company, but Gatwick aside I think some of these supply and handling contracts had been slashed to the bone as it was. As I was leaving they were even talking about not carrying serviettes anymore to save costs. I believe thats not the case any more but I think they'll be hard pressed to reduce costs in that sector any further.

[silverstreak]

The public perception of props... :ugh:

It goes like this - Iam not going on that, Props dont look so good, they are unsafe, they are noisy, flights are more turbulent...

BUT the public want cheap flights.

Mr Commercial and Mr Finance at flybe should have see the cost efficiencies of a Dash vs Embraer.

Ok the dash does suffer from 'glitches' and 'gremlins' but its a machine... Its a tea-spoon of fuel-drinking machine.

Whilst the Embraer is a good aircraft in its own right, its looking more and more likely that its not the one for flybe (The 'big' Embraer anyway)

Props? Its all down to efficiency. Looks can be deceptive!

[SealinkBF]

I feel safer on props, for some reason.
I don't have a fear of flying, but there's something strangely reassuring about a prop (for me anyway!)

[nigel osborne]

Silver streak,

Not sure about perception of props.

Fact they are slower, fact they are noisier, fact people like travelling on jets more.

You will find more people swapping to other carriers if they ditch jets for Dash 8s, thats of course if those airlines are flying the same routes.

The fact that so few airlines fly only props on a quite large route network like Fly Be surely speaks for itself.

Nigel

[Boing7117]

thats of course if those airlines are flying the same routes.

I think Flybe's strategic plan will be to ensure that they don't have much (if any) overlap on their routes, and so passengers will be flying what's available, i.e. the dash.

[Cloud1]

Nigel, come on - there are loads of airlines out there operating only a prop aircraft. Jazz, Porter, Aer Lingus Regional / Aer Arran to name a few.

Can we pleassseeee stop this jet vs prop nonsense! It is personal taste and no one person can speak on behalf of the entire worlds population. If we want to look at facts, the fact is people will still fly on a prop if it is an airlink from A to B - an airlink they need to use.

Now lets move on, for the love of god and whilst we are still young.

Anyway I heard that next week we shall hear which routes are remaining, which are going and any new routes. Has anyone any ideas which routes may fall in to each of these groups?

[OltonPete]

I know flybe are hardly in purchasing mode at present but does anybody know if this option has been looked at.

Just two less seats than the 175 but it doesn't sound great for room but I suppose the beancounters would love it.

DUBAI: Thailand's Nok launches high capacity Q400 (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dubai-thailands-nok-launches-high-capacity-q400-393273/)

Pete

[drivez]

Unless I'm missing a trick, how exactly are bombardier planning to add another 8 seats and a passenger door where hold five currently sits?

The door I can see, and maybe 4 seats, but 8?!?!

[Set 1013]

The key is reducing the seat pitch. Flybe currently has a seat pitch of 31in. The high capacity version has a pitch of 29in. By doing this you will be able to squeeze another row of 4 seats in before removing hold 5. Once that's out you would be able to get the other 4 seats in. Bloody cramped aircraft though!:eek:

[wesleyscott]

with the closure of the Aberdeen base imminent, am i to assume they may drop the early morning flights out of the city since no aircraft will be here overnight? Or will they change the schedule timing a bit so an aircraft can get up here in the morning. Mainly the ABZ-MAN routing

[wesleyscott]

thanks for that, guess we will just have to see what they say this week., let's hope they keep going

[Wycombe]

So it seems we may still see Flybe at LGW after the end of March 2014:

BBC News - Newquay-to-Gatwick Flybe route threat lifted (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-25177975)

[getonittt]

If the route needs a subsidy of several million pounds each year what's the point in having it? What a waste of money.

[Set 1013]

It is a vital link between the deepest part of the West Country and London. The route would be self sufficient if it wasn't for the extortionate charges LGW apply to operate a Q400 in there. APD doesn't help too!
The demand is there for the route, it is the greed of these 3rd parties that make it not profitable. It is obviously an important enough route to receive such funding.

[Cyrano]

It is a vital link between the deepest part of the West Country and London. The route would be self sufficient if it wasn't for the extortionate charges LGW apply to operate a Q400 in there. APD doesn't help too!
The demand is there for the route, it is the greed of these 3rd parties that make it not profitable. It is obviously an important enough route to receive such funding.

Stating "the demand is there for a route" is fairly meaningless unless it is demand at a price which corresponds to the cost of providing the service.

If the shortfall is indeed, as you say (and who am I to question this?) due to the charges at LGW, then surely the obvious solution is to serve an alternative cheaper London airport?

(I'm not even going to touch the "greed" comment.:cool:)

[davidjohnson6]

Seems to be similiar to Dr Beeching's cuts from the 1960s. At what point does it become socially desirable for Govt to intervene to spend money to sustain existing transport links to a region which are deemed necessary to sustain existing economic activity, compared to looking purely at the profitability of a transport provider ? And no, please don't change the topic of this thread to Dr Beeching - the topic is Flybe

The net effect of a potential PSO route between Gatwick and Newquay, would be
1 - Govt paying to GIP the difference in airport charges for 2x daily 78-seat Gatwick-Newquay flights versus 180-seat Gatwick-Malaga flights
PLUS
2 - Govt paying to the PSO carrier any difference in revenue on airfare between a purely supply/demand driven pricing scheme and a possibly Govt policy influenced pricing scheme

[anothertyke]

I should think Govt will be keen to avoid getting into Mr Johnson's 2 first time around. Put them back in the position they were in before LGW changed their tariff and let them get on with it. If the route numbers still don't add up, time for some serious thinking.

[Set 1013]

Cyrano,

With the greatest of respect I don't see your point. If Flybe changed from operating out of LGW to (as you say) a cheaper airport, I suspect that alternative airport would be less attractive to the traveling passengers. Would it not? The route demand is NQY - LGW! Simple! Half the people on this route connect around the world thought this airport. The route doesn't just support highly paid city workers traveling to their weekend home on the coast of Cornwall.

It is very simple really. If LGW didn't charge outrageous fees to put a dash in their, the route would be a good profitable one! Greed or politics on LGW's part is to blame for the down fall of this route.:ok:

[GAZMO]

Just reading an article that FLYBE are continuing the Newquay to LGW service
Did they purchase new slots for LGW, as I thought they had sold all to EZY

"Flybe, Europe’s largest independent regional airline, has agreed a commercial deal with Newquay Cornwall Airport that will enable the airline to continue operating flights between Newquay and London Gatwick from March 30th until October 25th, 2014 on a twice daily basis.

Read more: Cornwall-to-London Flybe route threat lifted | Exeter Express and Echo (http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/Cornwall-London-Flybe-route-threat-lifted/story-20248552-detail/story.html#ixzz2mKEnJu96)

[davidjohnson6]

Half the people on this route connect around the world thought this airport

So you're saying that half the passengers flying to/from and based in Newquay actually want a connection to some sort of a hub rather than to London ? On that basis, as Gatwick is non-connecting LCC-centric, would Flybe doing codeshares with other network carriers on a NQY-MAN route perhaps be more suitable for these pax instead ?

[cornishsimon]

FYI BA do offer codeshare on the flybe NQY route.

A BA codeshare on the NQY-MAN would allow onward connections on the AA routes but that would require different NQY flight times I think.



cs

[Cyrano]

Cyrano,

With the greatest of respect I don't see your point. If Flybe changed from operating out of LGW to (as you say) a cheaper airport, I suspect that alternative airport would be less attractive to the traveling passengers. Would it not? The route demand is NQY - LGW! Simple! Half the people on this route connect around the world thought this airport. The route doesn't just support highly paid city workers traveling to their weekend home on the coast of Cornwall.

It is very simple really. If LGW didn't charge outrageous fees to put a dash in their, the route would be a good profitable one! Greed or politics on LGW's part is to blame for the down fall of this route.:ok:

I don't like the effect that LGW's pricing has on regional links but GIP is a private company and I respect their right to manage their asset as they see fit in the absence of any regulation to the contrary. Should there be regulation of slots for regional links? I'd like to see that. But that's a national policy question, not one for GIP.

As davidjohnson6 points out, LGW could make more money by using those slots for an A320 going to (let's say) Malaga with 150+ passengers. The flybe LGW slots have been sold to easyjet. As a private company, why should GIP not maximise their revenues?

If half the demand is for connecting service, that may pose some problems for a future PSO. The purpose of a PSO is "territorial continuity", i.e. in this case improving mobility between Cornwall and London, for people who are starting their journey in one and ending it in the other. I'm open to being corrected, but I'm not aware of any European PSOs being defined in such a way as to subsidise international connectivity. In other words, I'd expect a Cornwall PSO to be for Cornwall-London service, not for Cornwall-Gatwick service, and to be open to carriers proposing services to Luton/Stansted/Southend, and who knows, even LCY :hmm:

[Phileas Fogg]

The NQY/LON route is viable and profitable with the right size of aircraft ... Alas FlyBE don't operate such a size of aircraft ...

One does begin to speculate why a UK operator has DHC8-100's on order!!!

[getonittt]

Yes Phileas, that was the type of aircraft that had been operating route in the Brymon/Air Southwest days albeit from Plymouth.
If an abolition of wretched APD on this route (or any other route as far as i'm concerned) would help then that would be another answer , or if the route is being used for cennections then i'm sure Exeter has flights to the european hubs .
Apart from that my original comment still stands.

[virginblue]

ne does begin to speculate why a UK operator has DHC8-100's on order!!!

If you are referring to my thread about the two DAT DHC8-100s, you should revisit it. The aircoraft are not on order by an UK airline. A UK operator is one of the interested parties, among others. Nothing more.

[EI-BUD]

The NQY/LON route is viable and profitable with the right size of aircraft ...
Alas FlyBE don't operate such a size of aircraft ...


Phileas Fogg;
This is a broad statement! What is the right size of aircraft, I think we would all agree that as the size of the aircraft comes down (seating capacity), typically the unit costs go up. I.e. the cost of pilots, landing slots etc etc, remain roughly the same. So the seeing this logic through it would suggest that say a 319 is the right size of aircraft? What size aircraft would you say is right and why?

In October a total of 8231 people used the route. That is 4115 each way,
so on average a daily number each way of 132. Assuming (as we must as nobody can tell the exact number of connecting passengers 1. as few have access to the actual numbers, and 2. many passengers are connecting but have separate tickets, so a very limited factual info available.

I agree that APD is a challenge and LGW charges not helping matters, the challenge is for 132 passengers, there will be millions of £'s pumped into a non viable route, so it is largely the needs of the few over the needs of the many. Commercial reality needs to kick in. I fully support the suggestion of connection passengers via MAN. This would further dilute the number of LGW NQY pax daily.

Looking over to Ireland, Loganair and Aer Arann got subsidies over the years on domestic routes, examples were DUB to LDY, SXL, GWY, NOC.
There is little evidence to show where the airlines have stimulated traffic on these routes despite being subsidised. It 'feels' like it is in any case hard to stimualte traffic on these routes, and I suggest NQY LGW will be no different. BE will go to say 2 a day (reduced frequency) and prices will go up due to supply demand etc. and the overall numbers will dip further.

EI-BUD

[LGS6753]

In October a total of 8231 people used the route. That is 3756 each way,

er, 8231divided by 2 = 4115.5.

Unless there is a Cornish dimension :eek:

[EI-BUD]

Unless there is a Cornish dimension http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif


LOL - well spotted, I looked up the CAA stats and read the Newcastle line of the report!

Yes you are correct . edited!

[davidjohnson6]

Phileas - you mention London-Newquay is profitable with the right size aircraft. If October had 4,115 pax in each direction over 31 days and we assume the route in future would be 2x daily (maybe only 1x daily at weekends) the route might see between 50 and 60 pax per flight.

If Flybe don't fly the right aircraft, what type of flying machine would work well without making the per unit passenger cost too high or forcing an airline to have a very small number of aircraft of a certain type ?

Genuine question as I'm puzzled as to how to make the route work year round at a business-friendly frequency without a Flybe Q400

[GusHoneybun]

With a loganair SAAB 2000. Would be full to the rafters so can charge a premium for the last seats. Welcome to FlyBe 2.0

[cornishsimon]

When did Logan get the S2000 ?


I have always wondered if a LoganAir base operating as BE using S340 or D328s at NQY would work!


cs

[Dontgothere]

Loganair stated that they were expecting delivery of 3x S2000 in 2014, if my memory serves me correctly all are however going to be allocated to Aberdeen, so it is not looking brilliant at the moment. But then again, seeing as it would be 50-60 per flight, would the S2000 not be a bit small?


Still great news that Flybe has decided to remain faithful to NQY for the meantime.

[Skipness One Echo]

If you operate a Saab 340 or 2000 you can't make a decent offer to the leisure traveller though, unless the taxpayer is to partly fund the fare whilst continuing to pay for the losses at the airport??

Am I missing something fundamental here?

[Phileas Fogg]

Before flybe came along the route was served by a maximum 50 seater and when shared with PLH that would have been an allocation of circa 25 seats 3 or 4 times daily.

Something in the SF340, Do328, ATR42 range is what will serve the route viably, to hell with cheap fares for the leisure travellers, a viable air link is essential for the Cornish and some Devonish and if the leisure travellers don't want to pay the fare then there is always the train, the A303, or if they can't afford to go on holiday then they stay at home :)

[davidjohnson6]

I think I've understood Gatwick's conditions of use 2013/2014 charges document correctly. It looks as if that take-off+landing+passenger handling during summer peak hours for an in-and-out of Gatwick comes to a minimum of about £1,725 or £1,770 for 30 pax. Divide by 30 pax on a almost-full Do328, and you get £59 in charges per pax for accessing Gatwick.

Newquay will want an extra £24 per passenger for an aircraft with 30 pax, APD adds a further £26 and the development fee is another £5

Total for airport charges + APD for a NQY-LGW-NQY round trip in summer = £114
This is of course before we think about fuel, labour, aircraft maintenance, navigation charges, etc...

On an aircraft with 30 pax, if Flybe are to make a reasonable profit, difficult to do a daytrip NQY-LGW-NQY in summer for much less than about £200 per head.

Move from a Do328 with 30 pax to a Q400 with 60 pax, and the various airport charges drops by about £50 per person to about £64 per head. Assuming a Q400 costs less per passenger than a Do328, this presumably permits an entry-level day return to be priced at maybe £110 per head.

[Phileas Fogg]

Move from a Do328 with 30 pax to a Q400 with 60 pax, and the various airport charges drops by about £50 per person to about £64 per head.

But that is costs per fitted seat rather than per fare paying passenger.

The answer is to find an alternative airport to LGW and for the LHR connections (particularly) it would seem that LTN might be the best alternative.

But shouldn't all this be in the NQY thread rather than the flybe thread?

[LNIDA]

On the subject of PSO routes, is it not daft to fund them (in order to sustain the route) then apply APD? if PSO routes were exempt from APD including any connecting through flights (not do it yourself connections) then it would encourage people to use NQY which in turn would lift route volume allowing bigger aircraft and reducing fixed cost per seat costs such as landing fee's.

[Flightrider]

All existing PSOs were exempted from APD in the last change to the UK APD rules - if you refer to the HMRC document, the exclusion is contained towards the back. As a new PSO - i.e. not extant at the date of the exemption coming into force - specific provision would have to be made for a Newquay-London PSO to be exempt from APD, assuming that it's operated by an aircraft on which passengers would normally have to pay it (which is likely).

[Phileas Fogg]

LNIDA,

I never mentioned PSO or APD but I do have insight knowledge of the NQY (and PLH) routes going back more than 30 years.

So if there is so much money to be made on the route utilising larger (than 50 seats) aircraft why are Flybe buggering off?

Are you aware of the population of Cornwall and how many tourists, indeed businessmen, (other than Cornish/Devonish) actually travel there particularly during the winters?

You'll be lucky to fill 35 seats 3 times daily during the winters!

[Barling Magna]

Devonian, not Devonish, I believe. I recall Devenish was rather a good ale from Weymouth, sadly long gone now.........:)

[Lough neagh monster]

Any of you flybe lot know if the check in guys are flexible?

If I turn up for an earlier flight with a firm booking for a later flight that evening, will the check in staff be flexible enough and allow me to jump on the earlier flight if there are seats available?

[darkbarly]

Pretty sure you will be refused. There is a flexi ticket option at point of sale which may/should be cheaper than the booking change option at check in. Most check in staff are not Flybe employees(sore point) but if you have airport ID you might blag it free of charge?

[Lough neagh monster]

Thanks. Yes I have airport ID, but for another airport. I'll try the charm factor...

[mad_jock]

I don't think they will change it free of charge.

They can change friends and family tickets but not paying punters because the receipt needs linked to the change. Otherwise the handling company gets it in the ear. Same with sneaking and extra bag on-board.

[Waldo1]

They do charge...an extortionate amount! Its the munber 1 reason i prefer easyjet, going early free of charge, with no awkward questions is a real winner

[LAX_LHR]

Seems the pruning of routes has begun.

Confirmed route closures so far:

EXT-NCL
EXT-NCE
EXT-BCN
GLA-SNN
CWL-GLA
CWL-CDG
SOU-LBA
BFS-CDG
BRS-JER
EMA-CDG
SOU-HAJ
LTN-JER becomes summer only
LTN-IOM becomes summer only

New routes:

NQY-BHX
NQT-LGW continues.

[flybar]

Full route reductions press release here:-

Flybe | Corporate | Media | News archive (http://www.flybe.com/corporate/media/news/1312/04.htm)

[vectisman]

LAX_LHR I think you will find that Luton-Jersey and Luton-Isle of Man are also cancelled. The second list on the corporate news page contains all the summer only routes that are being withdrawn. I do agree the wording is not clear enough though.


V.

[bad bear]

Why so many Scottish redundancies if the total cuts are 2 rotations from Inverness and 3 1/2 rotations from Glasgow?

bb

[BFS BHD]

Is BHD-JER still running as summer only for Flybe???

[LBIA]

Yep looks as though flybe Belfast City - jersey route has gone am afraid along with all the following services.

Cardiff – Glasgow
Cardiff – Paris CDG
Belfast City – Paris CDG
Belfast City – Jersey
Belfast City - London Gatwick
East Midlands – Paris CDG
Edinburgh – Knock
Exeter - Barcelona
Exeter – Newcastle
Exeter – Nice
Glasgow – Shannon
Glasgow – Paris CDG
Guernsey - London Gatwick
Inverness - London Gatwick
Isle of Man - Bristol
Isle of Man - Jersey
Isle of Man - London Gatwick
Isle of Man - London Luton
Isle of Man – Southampton
Jersey - Bristol
Jersey – London Luton
Jersey - London Gatwick
Newcastle - Jersey
Newcastle - Limoges
Newcastle - London Gatwick
Norwich - Newquay
Southampton - Barcelona
Southampton - Beziers
Southampton - Hannover
Southampton - Leeds Bradford

[davidjohnson6]

Is that a final list of routes to be closed for the time being, or are there potentially more route cuts to come later this month ?

[LAX_LHR]

Is that a final list of routes to be closed for the time being, or are there
potentially more route cuts to come later this month


Whilst this is probably it for now (only so much bad press the shares can take), I would not rule out another list of closures. With apparently 61 unprofitable routes, there could be more at risk.

[BFS BHD]

Thanks for that LBIA :ok:

[BOHEuropean]

A posting on another forum states that a Flybe Call-Centre employee said more route cuts would be announced a week from today, Wednesday 11th December.

[The Big Easy]

Sorry to hear of job losses. Has the redundancy policy been agreed ie LIFO/fleet/age?

[Cloud1]

I believe the share price increased again

Difference is, this bad news is good for the long term and thats what investors are interested in.

Any ideas of what other routes may be chopped?

[mathers_wales_uk]

I don't think the call centre really knew what was happening today as I know of a member of the public that contacted them after his Cardiff to Paris flight was cancelled.

The response from the call centre was that the route was under evaluation however the decision would be made on the 11th December. Within an hour there was a press release to the media and flights not available to book online.

[Tonyq]

Reading the media release carefully I'd speculate that this is the extent of planned route withdrawals for the period until October 2014.

However frequency reductions and consolidations, changes to operating bases and therefore timings, on the remaining routes, are another matter.

December 11th sounds like the target date for having the new schedules in the system, when they will be able the change displaced bookings with more certainty as to alternatives.

[davidjohnson6]

I don't think the call centre really knew what was happening+1 on this. I phoned the call centre 4 days ago asking when the schedule would be trimmed to reflect the closure of 6 bases. The response was to give an absolute assurance that yes 6 bases were closing but not a single route would be cut, all rescheduling was done months ago and nothing more was planned.

[78Whiskey]

Anyone think that WAT may get cut from MAN/BHX? BHX has been performing pretty well as of late when going on the pax numbers over the previous couple of months. I Don't know about MAN, LF seems to be in the 40%-50% range.

Such a shame 2 of other Irish routes have stopped. Can see really why GLA-SNN was dropped, but don't really know much on the EDI-NOC and how it was doing. Hopefully won't be too many jobs lost overall.

[fivejuliet]

SNN-GLA and NOC-EDI were both doing around the same average load

[BOHEuropean]

It was my understanding Flybe was to re-evaluate the Sunshine routes, with an aim to become a 90 minute airline. If these are the only cuts, then it would mean destinations such as Alicante, Malaga, Faro etc were all staying??

[Hangar6]

GLA SNN and EDI NOC marginal at best but FR PIKNOC. Will take
That business easily ,

[lfc84]

belfast-isle of man must be a typo in the list above. they dont operate it

[davidjohnson6]

It seems that the routes out of Exeter and Southampton to places like Faro and Malaga are ending around 30 September 2014, instead of running through to late October 2014. The summer seasonal routes are still being run, just that the last few weeks in October look like being dropped, prezumably because of expected insufficient demand.

I somehow doubt there are many people who will have booked on these sunshine routes for October a full 10 months in advance at this stage.

[BOHEuropean]

davidjohnson6,

I do apologize, I understood it as the Sunshine routes were ending at the end of next summer. What you state makes far more sense, so I've deleted my inaccurate post...

Sorry everyone!

[devon_guy]

The sunshine routes from Exeter used to be year round though so they are obviously being reduced to just summer routes.

[GCILover]

I can't see them axing these routes. They do put on extra flights from July through to September so perhaps that's where the confusion lies.......hopefully

[mart901]

Anyone know how BHX-NOC is doing so far?

[01475]

Pulling out London completely! AMS completes another step of being the UK's hub airport for the regions...

[Artic Monkey]

Blame the government

[Albert Hall]

I'm not sure apportioning blame at this stage of the game is going to get anyone anywhere...but I wouldn't blame the government. I'd instead blame a business model overly reliant on credit and debit card fee charges for its margins which was never going to be sustainable, and a decision to split the management team and make some highly unsuitable appointments in the core UK business. Neither of those are the government's fault, but if both hadn't happened, the story at Flybe today would be very different indeed. Still, none of that will help those losing jobs.

[Artic Monkey]

I'm talking about 01475's post in relation to why AMS is becoming the UK's hub for the regions. APD is killing regional flying in the UK.

[chaps2011]

I don`t think this is a recent thing Artic Monkey as KLM used to make a lot of them being another London airport as so many pax transfered through there and
that dated back to late 80`s

Chaps

[JC25]

Artic Monkey "I'm talking about 01475's post in relation to why AMS is becoming the UK's hub for the regions. APD is killing regional flying in the UK."

APD and it's affect on regional flying in the UK is a problem, but APD is not the reason many people choose foreign hubs rather than UK hubs. There is a common misconception that by transiting through AMS (or any non-UK airport) to long haul destination, it will save on taxes. It does not.

APD is calculated based on final destination, regardless of where a transit may happen. For example, whether you fly MAN-AMS-BKK, MAN-LHR-BKK or MAN-DXB-BKK is irrelevant as APD is payable for the MAN-BKK routing.

The only way to avoid this is by booking the two segments separately, thus paying UK APD only on the first leg to AMS/CDG/FRA etc. But of course doing this leaves you rather exposed to mis-connecting without any support, then having to sort yourself a new flight and the added expense that comes with it, which is highly likely to be far more than any money saved on APD.

KLM serve the UK regions very comprehensively, far more so than BA, Air France or Lufthansa. Plus AMS is a easy transit airport... Makes it a no-brainer for many. APD is a different issue and is unrelated.

Having said that... The lack of understanding of how APD works may well push people to travel via a non-UK hub in the belief they will save on APD, which they in fact will not.

ADP is however a huge issue for domestic airlines as it is chargeable on any flight from a UK airport (with a couple of exceptions I believe) so domestic flights are hit twice, outbound and inbound. It adds £26 to a return fare for every domestic flight.

[davidjohnson6]

There is an indirect argument that APD pushes certain transfer passengers towards Amsterdam.

Those people travelling domestically in the UK have a choice to either fly, go by train/car or not travel at all. APD will clearly discourage people from flying when their entire journey is within the UK and subject to an APD charge. The result is fewer passengers on these routes, lower demand and likely lower frequency of flights.
If the number of domestic flights is reduced, it becomes harder for places like Birmingham or Manchester to function as connection-friendly airports as they cannot generate domestic feed for long haul carriers so easily.
Long haul carriers thus see BHX / MAN as losing some of their appeal with the reduction in potential feed, while routes to AMS which exist for onward connections of people who cannot easily substitute train for plane are relatively untouched.

APD has naff all effect on connections via Heathrow but it will affect cities like BHX or MAN

[WHBM]

I don`t think this is a recent thing Artic Monkey as KLM used to make a lot of them being another London airport as so many pax transfered through there and
that dated back to late 80`s
Longer than that. A significant proportion of pax on KLM's pioneer service from Amsterdam to the Far East in the 1930s had come from the UK; it wouldn't have been worthwhile without these passengers. Apart from their connecting flights from London Croydon, KLM were the only airline of that era to have a service to the Continent direct from provincial points, it routed Liverpool - Manchester (Barton) - Doncaster - Amsterdam with DC-2s.

APD is however a huge issue for domestic airlines as it is chargeable on any flight from a UK airport (with a couple of exceptions I believe) so domestic flights are hit twice, outbound and inbound. It adds £26 to a return fare for every domestic flight.
There's also the bizarre effect that a pax making a round trip to Europe, connecting at Heathrow, is only paying half the APD of someone sat next to them on the domestic legs who is just visiting London.

[davidjohnson6]

Schedule on some of thinner routes for S14 have been republished with what appear to be some significant changes

[bad bear]

davidjohnson6

Can you give any examples?

bb

[GCILover]

SOU/GCI increased to 5 flights a day in the weeks starting in SOU

[Jamesair]

NCL - BHD gets an extra M-F flight as well.

[adfly]

Now I wonder what could have encouraged them to make such a change on SOU-GCI? :ok:

[Wycombe]

You would expect to see "first wave" departures from SOU to GCI and JER from S14, as there will no longer be a/c based on the islands.

The schedule changes in the online timetable (which appear to WIP) also now show that the NQY "based" a/c will operate NQY-LGW-NQY-BHX-NQY-MAN-NQY-LGW-NQY daily in S14 as suspected.

[bad bear]

Great to see some good news at last. Will the extra flights save jobs? Wonder where the Gatwick slots came from?

bb

[J-Guy]

Jersey also receives an extra daily frequency on the Southampton route. Weekdays up from 4 to 5 flights and weekends 3 to 4 flights. First flight out of the Island is 08.15 rather than 07.05.

[bmaviscount]

Seems to be a Dash 8 dtill based at GCI next summer

[BOHEuropean]

Believe the schedules are still a work in progress, so they may not be completely accurate just yet?

[rodentone]

Can't book INV-SOU post March 2014 ...what's that all about?

[scr1]

Can't book INV-SOU post March 2014 ...what's that all about?

Their has been no direct INV-SOU for several years and even then it was only a Saturday or Sunday only

[rodentone]

But it's not even available via MAN!