FlyBe - 6 [Archive] - Page 12

Whispering Giant

6th Feb 2013, 07:42

announced to the LSE this morning Flybe reaches agreement with Ryanair:-

RNS Number : 2043X
Flybe Group PLC
06 February 2013

Flybe Group plc

FLYBE GROUP REACHES AGREEMENT WITH RYANAIR TO CREATE FLYBE IRELAND IN THE EVENT OF A SUCCESSUL BID BY RYANAIR FOR AER LINGUS

The Board of Flybe Group plc ('Flybe') has today announced that it has reached agreement with Ryanair Holdings PLC ('Ryanair') over the possible transfer of a number of aircraft and operating routes as part of a package of remedies that Ryanair has submitted to the European Commission DG Competition ('EC'), in the context of its offer for Aer Lingus Group PLC ('Aer Lingus')

The proposed transaction is contingent upon the EC's approval of Ryanair's proposed remedies and a successful bid by Ryanair for Aer Lingus. If Ryanair's acquisition of Aer Lingus is completed, Flybe expects to seek formal shareholder approval for the acquisition of Flybe Ireland from Ryanair in early Autumn 2013.

Flybe also announces that it has received irrevocable acceptances representing 64% of the shareholders in support of this possible transaction. The European Commission had insisted on the pledging of irrevocable acceptances by over 50% of Flybe's shareholders as a condition precedent for the deal to create Flybe Ireland proceeding.

ENQUIRIES:

Flybe

Jim French, Chairman & Chief Executive Officer

Andrew Knuckey, Chief Financial Officer

SUMMARY

· The Board of Flybe has reached agreement with Ryanair to create a well-capitalised, well-funded business in Ireland in the event that Ryanair completes the takeover of Aer Lingus.

· The Board believes that the opportunity to serve the Irish aviation market is in line with its published strategy, and its previous solid track record of successful acquisitions.

THE TRANSACTION

· Flybe has agreed to acquire a new company, Flybe Ireland, from Ryanair for €1 million.

· Prior to its acquisition by Flybe, Ryanair has agreed to transfer to Flybe Ireland:

o 43 routes, all within Europe, many to or from current Flybe destinations;

o The requisite number of slots and licences to operate the routes;

o A minimum of 9 Airbus A320 aircraft;

o The requisite number of flight crew, aircraft engineers, management and facilities to operate the business;

o A cash injection of €100 million;

o All forward sales cash and liabilities, estimated at a further circa €50m in working capital funding.

· Ryanair in consultation with Flybe will undertake to develop a one year business plan to deliver a cost structure that based on the assumption that the preceding year's revenue remains the same, would provide €20 million in pre-tax profits in the 12 months following the transfer to Flybe Ireland. In the event that the business plan does not project €20 million in pre-tax profits, there is an agreed adjustment mechanism factored into the €100 million cash contribution referred to above.

FLYBE IRELAND

· Flybe Ireland will:

o Operate from bases in Dublin and Cork;

o Operate 43 routes to 34 destinations in Europe. Flybe currently operates to approximately half of those destinations in its Flybe UK business;

o Deploy Flybe's frequency model on the major city pairs, and its leisure model on the European leisure markets;

o Have the right to use the Aer Lingus brand for up to three years post the transaction. This will allow it to develop its own brand position in Ireland during a realistic transition period.

COMMITMENTS MADE BY FLYBE TO RYANAIR AS PART OF THE EC REMEDY PACKAGE

· Flybe Ireland will be committed to operating an agreed frequency on routes, with the ability to terminate a certain number of routes per year whilst maintaining stable capacity in the Irish market.

· If Flybe Ireland exceeds the route termination threshold, it will pay a contractual penalty.

THE EXPECTED TIMETABLE

Outlined below is the expected timetable:

· March 2013

o On 6 March 2013, EC is scheduled to give a decision on the competition aspects of Ryanair's bid for Aer Lingus.

o If the EC gives the agreement for Ryanair's bid for Aer Lingus to proceed, Ryanair may then re-activate its bid with a view to gaining sufficient acceptances from Aer Lingus shareholders.

· May 2013

o If the Ryanair bid is reactivated and is successful, Flybe would expect the deal to close on or around mid May.

· Summer 2013:

o If the Ryanair bid for Aer Lingus has been successful, Flybe will undertake due diligence on the new entity.

o It is expected that the Class 1 Circular will be completed and posted to Shareholders in August 2013, followed by an EGM for shareholders to vote.

· October 2013:

o The effective date of the transaction is envisaged to be October 2013 with Flybe Ireland commencing operations under Flybe's ownership at the beginning of the 2013/14 IATA winter season.

WHY THE BOARD BELIEVES THE TRANSACTION TO BE BENEFICIAL TO FLYBE GROUP SHAREHOLDERS

The Board of Flybe believes that the transaction offers the following benefits to its shareholders:

· As stated at IPO, the Group's strategy is to diversify away from its reliance upon UK revenue. This opportunity is a good mixture of diversification, and overlap with its existing route network, to fulfil this goal.

· Flybe has existing presence and network points at approximately half of the 34 destinations in the 43 route package.

· Flybe Ireland will be a well-capitalised company, with approximately €150m of cash on the balance sheet, including the one off capitalisation by Ryanair, and the transfer of the forward sales cash within Aer Lingus at the time of the transaction.

· Flybe Ireland will increase Flybe's ability to drive further economies of scale from fleet basing, suppliers and airports, as part of this transaction.

· Flybe has proven expertise in the acquisition and turnaround of acquired entities:

· In March 2007, Flybe acquired British Airways' UK regional airline, BA Connect, a business losing £40m per year at acquisition. The business was fully integrated into Flybe within 12 months, and made profits by the end of its first year of ownership. At the time of its acquisition the business had 39 aircraft, 1,700 staff and £350m of revenue.

· In August 2011, Flybe acquired the loss making Finncomm Airlines (Finland based), in a joint venture with Finnair. This business has been restructured and refocused, and as a result has delivered substantial growth with an expectation of profits in 2013/14 in line with the original acquisition plan. The business now has a €300m turnover and operates 28 aircraft.

Commenting on today's announcement Jim French, Flybe's Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, said:

"Flybe would be delighted to be granted the opportunity to service the Irish aviation market through Flybe Ireland, an airline which would be based in Ireland and dedicated to developing a broad range of scheduled services for business and leisure markets.

"This development of creating a Dublin based airline is in line with the Company's stated strategy at the time of IPO - which was to diversify away from reliance upon the UK economy. The terms of the deal negotiated ensure that Flybe Ireland will be a well-capitalised, well-funded company, enabling us to deliver upon that strategic aim. Flybe has a history of acquiring businesses of scale, restructuring and refocusing them and as a result delivering profitable returns. This opportunity plays clearly to that corporate strength.

"Flybe would be proud to have the chance to serve the Irish markets, and would be, as we seek to be throughout the rest of Europe, a good employer and corporate citizen.

"However, before Flybe Ireland can come into being there are many hurdles to overcome, not least the EC accepting the remedies offered by Ryanair in its offer to take over Aer Lingus, and then the shareholders of Aer Lingus accepting an offer from Ryanair. However, Flybe has positioned itself well if these events come to pass, while in the meantime we continue to focus upon the delivery of the cost reduction and efficiency plan we outlined in January".

6 February 2013

Lord Spandex Masher

6th Feb 2013, 07:59

That's all well and good, subject to approval, but what happens when the 100 mill runs out?

AirLCY

6th Feb 2013, 08:40

The same as when the BA money ran out, losses and job losses?

Lord Spandex Masher

6th Feb 2013, 08:45

Unless there's a magical reduction in APD to zero and fuel prices turned back to early 90s prices I fear you might be right.

Afterall it's not the business model that's at fault is it:ugh:

lexoncd

6th Feb 2013, 09:07

Flybe should invest in a booking engine that actually functions as well or better that their competitors. Probably the worst website I have come across in recent times in the industry.

No big fan of Ryanair but their site is damned good at giving you the following

Where we fly
When we fly
How much it cost (plus extras!)

Flybe scould achieve so much more with a customer friendly site...

Snigs

6th Feb 2013, 09:56

Ah, but that would require a decent IT department. Unfortunately to get good professionals Flybe need to pay decent wages..... Sort of a Catch 22 situation! :confused:

davidjohnson6

6th Feb 2013, 20:01

Where we flyFlybe Route Map (http://www.flybe.com/route-map/)

When we flyAdmittedly not so easy to find...
Flybe Timetable (http://www.flybe.com/timetableClassic/timetable.jsp)

If someone can point me to a working version of a timetable on the Ryanair website, I'd be very grateful. The page at
Cheap Flights timetables (http://www.ryanair.com/en/timetables)
seems to only give the message "Could not connect to server. Please try again later."

I grant you though that if visiting the Flybe *mobile* website for iPhone / Android devices, it's a considerably worse experience, particularly with the very reduced functionality
I've suggested to Flybe IT dept that they put a link on the mobile website so that Android users can at least view the desktop PC website, but was met with a "Mobile users must use only the mobile site and should not be using the desktop PC site"

scr1

7th Feb 2013, 08:20

I grant you though that if visiting the Flybe *mobile* website for iPhone / Android devices, it's a considerably worse experience, particularly with the very reduced functionality
I've suggested to Flybe IT dept that they put a link on the mobile website so that Android users can at least view the desktop PC website, but was met with a "Mobile users must use only the mobile site and should not be using the desktop PC site"

It is possible to load the desktop site on my tablet. just go to settings and select the "request desktop site" (using a Android tablet)

BOHEuropean

13th Feb 2013, 11:56

Flybe have confirmed they are in discussions with Estonian Air. Should Estonian go bankrupt, Flybe could be involved in launching new services/airline in partnership with the countries government.

Flybe and Estonian ministry discussed the provision of flight services :: The Baltic Course | Baltic States news & analytics (http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/good_for_business/?doc=70256)

EI-BUD

13th Feb 2013, 12:31

Interesting re Estonian, and brings to mind that BE will be fairly confident while the FR legal challenge is ongoing and the proposed FlybeIreland proposals, FR wont be challenging BE in such a market as Estonia, hence, BE may be well able to keep FR off its back ....

Flightrider

13th Feb 2013, 14:55

Ironic that Flybe are looking to bail out Estonian if they go bankrupt. Perhaps a mutual aid pact might be more appropriate - their own finances are hardly flush with cash right now.

Tinwald

13th Feb 2013, 16:32

straws at clutching...........in the right order. All seems pretty desperate gasps of a drowning airline. :confused:

Serenity

13th Feb 2013, 16:54

So 300+ redundancies, inc 88 pilots, base closures and a/c laid up.
Now they want to buy another failing carrier.
Crazy!!

HidekiTojo

13th Feb 2013, 23:05

Some good stuff in this story; Aer Lingus CEO slams Ryanair's plans for new Irish airline - UPDATE - stock market news and uk share prices (http://www.livecharts.co.uk/share_prices/Aer-Lingus-CEO-slams-Ryanair-s-plans-for-new--news20672797.html)

Jamie2k9

13th Feb 2013, 23:25

Flybe CEO needs to come back into the real world and not the fantasy world he is currently in.

JobsaGoodun

14th Feb 2013, 06:40

Flightrider, Serenity......

I don't see anything about bailing out Estonian? A quick trawl of the internet indicates that this about the formation of a joint venture with the Estonian government following the bankruptcy of the current Estonian Air, should the government take that decision.

Are Flybe facing some challenges at the moment? Sure, it's fair to say that they are. However, Flybe isn't a single airline business and whilst the UK airline has it's challenges to overcome, Flybe Finland appears unaffected and has grown well on the back of Finnair since it's creation.

I think it's also worth getting some context. Some posters here seem to think that Flybe is on the verge of bankruptcy. I agree that the situation would be much graver if they ignored the need to make redundancies and cost savings within their UK business, but Flybe are currently losing only 2-3% of annual turnover per year.

Whilst not sustainable forever, this isn't anywhere close to the likes of BMI, BMIBaby, Cityjet etc who were/are much much more as a percentage of turnover. Then factor in the number of years that these losses were absorbed and it makes for even more tragic reading. (Of course, I accept that Flybe does not have a parent airline like LH or AF to fall back on).

Flybe still have available cash in the bank from the recent flotation, and the cost reductions are necessary to avoid burning through this more quickly, afterall, shareholders invested on the basis that there would be EU expansion, not to bail out losses in the UK business.

Forgive me but from reading some post on here, you'd be forgiven for thinking it was a case of 'last one out turn off the lights'. There are certainly some on here exaggerating the severity of the situation that Flybe finds itself in.

Toastal

14th Feb 2013, 10:49

"Bankruptcy for Flybe not that far off!! What a load of complete tripe. For your info, Flybe has floated a small propotion of the company, with reasonable cash reserves if Jim goes asking cap-in-hand.

T:suspect:

MUFC_fan

14th Feb 2013, 11:11

HidekiTojo,

The great thing about floating on the stock market is that you can see warts and all. You're commenting without looking at any of the information! Have you looked at the accounts, have you seen the cash reserves? By saying they're on the brink (again with it being a PLC you are treading on dodgy ground, even on this anonymous forum) is just wrong and mis-informed. Go and look at the figures...

Secondly, how can you say you haven't seen any of the cost cutting? Do you work for the airline? Do you know what's going on inside? It's all over the news of the number of job losses so that's a pretty big saving! Albeit maybe not this financial year but your quoted calendar year there should be some significant savings!

JobsaGoodun,

Very well said.

daynehold

14th Feb 2013, 18:32

I’m sorry but it is about time that these kinds of speculative posts ceased.

I quote the following from Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner) (http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner-52/)

12th Feb 2013, 16:51

What airline do you believe; if any, could be the next one to cease operations within the next coming months/years? .... SOMEWHAT IRRESPONSIBLE TO ASK BECAUSE "RUMOUR CONTROL" ALONE CAN PERSUADE THE FLYING PUBLIC NOT TO BOOK PUTTING AN OPERATOR OUT OF BUSINESS

Call me what you wish (maybe pompous but at least I’m sincere!) but I wholehearted endorse this comment. The UK economy is in dire straights and I’m afraid to say that one of the significant reasons for this lies at the door of “financial speculators” who have amassed wealth but at a cost to millions of “ordinary hard working folk”.

I’m not sure what satisfaction is gained from posting comments about the possible future of airlines but please act responsibly and bear in mind that “rumors are started by *****, spread by fools and accepted by idiots” (anon quote).

daynehold

14th Feb 2013, 18:34

And before anyone points out the error! It should have been headed Flybe. :oh:

chaps2011

14th Feb 2013, 18:53

I get really hacked off by people that all they can see is the negative side and seem hell bent on bringing companies/people down, perhaps if people look at
things with a positive we can come out of the reccession, the more negative you are the worse things look and so on.
So a new question which airline is going to do best and expand and remember the press look at these forums. There are lots of plusses if people look

Chaps

redED

15th Feb 2013, 13:09

The UK economy is in dire straights and I’m afraid to say that one of the significant reasons for this lies at the door of “financial speculators” who have amassed wealth but at a cost to millions of “ordinary hard working folk”.

Hear hear!

vectisman

23rd Feb 2013, 10:17

I know Flybe have some issues at the moment with fees at Gatwick but still unsure why they do not take on the Gatwick-Manchester route when BA suspend it from the end of March. It carries point to point traffic as well as some transfer traffic to BA/VS longhauls. 3 times daily with mix of EMB175/EMB195 may be viable especially with codeshares with BA/VS. Even a contract agreement with BA may be worth looking at like the London City-Isle of Man one BA has with Eastern.
I am also surprised that GIP do not seem too concerned about losing the link between two of England's largest cities. I understand they want to expand longhaul operations but losing potential transfer traffic from the regions does not strengthen their case.

V.

davidjohnson6

23rd Feb 2013, 10:38

Gatwick-St Pancras takes 45 mins by train and runs every 15 mins
St Pancras - Euston takes 10 mins to walk
Euston - Manchester Piccadilly takes 2h05 by train and runs every 20 mins

Total is 3 hours with very high frequency throughout the day. Very difficult for air to compete on point-point.

Flybe do well when there is water in the middle of a straight-line route or when billions have not been spent upgrading the train line.

VC10man

23rd Feb 2013, 10:48

The rail journey sounds good. It makes you wonder why they need to dig up swathes of countryside to have another railway.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

I think the money would be better spent on improving the airport capacity in the south. Has anyone thought of this?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

BCALBOY

23rd Feb 2013, 10:58

It think the lack of takers ,endorses BA's decision to pull the MAN route.
In its heyday LGW/MAN was one of the key routes feeding longhaul - thats when LGW was the sole UK gateway for ATL,DFW,IAH,LOS,TIP and these routes all had lots of connecting psgrs for MAN ,many of whom were high yielding.

These routes have all switched to LHR and LGW is left serving the 'Beach' routes to Florida,Caribbean plus DXB,LAS.
DXB,LAS , BGI have scheduled nontops from MAN .Charters serve other parts of the Caribbean, Florida and CUN.Large number of Florida and LasVegas bound psgrs connect in the US via the direct services to ATL,CLT,PHL.

Result is importance of MAN/LGW as a feeder is highly diminished in terms of numbers and yields from those remaining are not great.

The policy of GIP is to dis-courage small aircraft and their pricing means it is very difficult to make money with sub 100 seaters.A large proportion of the seats need to be filled just to pay for landing charges/turnaround handling charges ,leaving small scope to make any money.

Rising APD makes it difficult for airlines to raise fares to achieve profitability without making the total ticket cost unbearable.

In short theres more profit to be made using aircraft elsewhere although I do agree GIP will find it harder to attract new carriers without good connections to important cities like MAN.

vectisman

23rd Feb 2013, 11:08

Many thanks for all your comments. As somebody who has flown the route since BCAL days I guess I just need to see economic sense and move on!!

OltonPete

25th Feb 2013, 20:40

The schedule still seems to be evolving even as March approaches.

Inverness seems to be the attention of some changes with two based 175's per various sites.

The Gatwick goes back to three daily in May and INV - MAN changes to the 175 as does INV-BHD.

The INV-BHX reverts back to a BHX based aircraft also gets upgraded Mon-Fri to the 175. MAN from 31/3, BHD and BHX from 1/4.

BHX-HAJ moves to a 13.00 departure and MAN-DUS in the morning reverts to the Q400 with the 175 going MAN-BHD-MAN-JER-MAN-DUS-MAN-DUS-MAN.

The Inverness extra 175 seems to come from Manchester but I believe another one was due for delivery in March - has this changed or anybody got any accurate information?

Two Q400's I see have recently been withdrawn from use and are heading to Nigeria.

It also appears that the 175/195 swap between BHX & EDI is going ahead. BHX - EDI first, forth and sixth outbounds are now with the 175 and the EDI based SOU flight changing to the 195.

Certainly seem to be upping the 175 utilisation with the BHX three operating 22 sectors most weekdays.

Pete

Artic Monkey

25th Feb 2013, 20:49

Pete

Where do you get this info from? You actually know more than any of us on the inside :E

OltonPete

25th Feb 2013, 21:56

Artic Monkey

It is all from the flybe website and confirmed in GDS.

Obviously things change at the press of a button these days but they are selling flights for summer 13 based on what I have stated.

However with all these things the information is only good at the time is was taken from the system (which was a few hours ago).

I believe some of it is fairly new as I checked the BHX flights only last week as the 175 schedule seemed incomplete.

I also had one 175 short from the schedule but on checking the INV - MAN service by chance I noticed it had changed from the Q400 but I can't be sure how long it has been loaded.

The swapping of the 175/195 between EDI and BHX has been loaded a few weeks as has the reduction in flights on some days between EDI-SOU

Pete

chinapattern

26th Feb 2013, 13:43

Pete

Are there any gaps in the BHX schedule that could accommodate the rumoured HEL route? Or would such a flight be likely to be operated by Flybe Nordic?

OltonPete

26th Feb 2013, 19:54

chinapattern

In the week there are very few gaps for the jets.

It is the Q400 schedule which seems incomplete and by reducing STR to once daily in the day could result in another unit disappearing.

The Belfast 195 back around 10am seems to do nothing until Milan at 13.40 until the Monday and Friday Jersey starts and the DUS 175 gets in at 10.40 and doesn't operate out until 13.55 but with the other two 175's going to LYS and INV I would imagine that lay-over will come in handy for tech cover.

To me it is plain to see they have tightened their schedule but still have a couple of small gaps and I assume the spare 195.

Pete

Phalconphixer

7th Mar 2013, 23:16

Are Flybe trying to deliberately price themselves out of this market? Fares between Southampton and Malaga and Southampton Alicante appear to be a good 30%-40% higher for the current season than in previous years. With Ryanair operating routes from Bournemouth to Malaga and Alicante, one has to wonder whether the die hard 'Wont ever use Ryanair' brigade might just be tempted to vote with their feet...

Serenity

8th Mar 2013, 08:47

I was going to use Flybe to Alicante, but when comparing I found Monarch the cheapest from Gatwick. Over £75 per person cheaper.
That's a big difference when there are four of you travelling like us!!

Lord Spandex Masher

8th Mar 2013, 08:51

I had a six day holiday in New York for the price it would take me to fly to Malaga with Flybe.

Wycombe

8th Mar 2013, 10:31

But if I am right, BE have increased frequency for some of the Spanish sun routes out of SOU for S13 (eg, ALC up to 5 weekly, PMI up to 4), so they must be doing alright??

davidjohnson6

8th Mar 2013, 11:54

Fares are expensive, but will people living near Southampton pay ? If the convenience of a nearby airport still brings in enough customers at higher fares to fill the aircraft, then Flybe are doing the right thing

Lord Spandex Masher

8th Mar 2013, 12:38

The loads on the sun routes were always quote good but traditionally the yields were very poor. Not a lot you can do to make more dosh apart from increase on board sales or stick the prices up and hope people still travel. Can't see on board sales going up unless they provide proper catering and not a skanky, semi frozen, greasy sarnie.

How much can they stick the price up before people stop using those flights?

adfly

8th Mar 2013, 15:57

Barcelona fares are noticeably cheaper than the other Spanish/Portuguese 'sun' routes from SOU although I expect this is as it will attract more a mix of city-break and holiday pax, and is yet to be well established. Also worth considering for most of the dates I have looked at there is nigh on no difference between the price of Flybe from SOU and Ryanair from BOH, although the LON airports are noticeably cheaper the fact that Flybe and Ryanair are able to charge these prices in the peak summer suggests that there is enough people in the area willing to pay more to fly from their local airport.

Phalconphixer

8th Mar 2013, 20:39

For the last three years or so my wife has used the Flybe AGP-SOU-AGP route several times a year and in almost every case the return fare maxed out at around £250 / 300€ including 40kgs baggage allowance and a pre-allocated seat. With judicious use of the timetable and flexibility on trael dates it was possible to do it for a lot less.
This year the average return fare is around £400 / 450€ excluding bags and pre-allocated seat. There is also a huge difference between the outbound and inbound fares on the same flight date.
To be honest it looks as if commencing April AGP-LGW-AGP with Norwegian is going to be the best deal of the year if one can live with a midnight arrival at Malaga.
Sorry Flybe but for me you just priced yourselves out of the market and lost a regular customer.

pottwiddler

10th Mar 2013, 22:13

PhalconPhixer...If you could stomach it, you could fly into BOH from AGP and return for much less than either LGW or SOH. Around £125 each including Bags and reserved seating.

Hial Flyer

11th Mar 2013, 03:40

Flybe also ripping customers off when using their rewards4all points. Recently looked at a return flight SOU to GLA. Price using my rewards4all points was 16 points plus £83 return(flight supposed to be free, just pay taxes and charges). If flight booked without using points it was only £60. Why are we paying £23 extra to use our so called loyalty points.

Didn't book in the end, flew LGW to GLA with EZY for £45

lfc84

11th Mar 2013, 08:45

@hial flyer - Flybe | Rewards4all | Questions and Answers (http://www.flybe.com/rewards4all/faq.htm)

JC25

11th Mar 2013, 10:15

Some of the lowest fares online are loss leaders (the basic fare effectively zero and total fare is less than the taxes and charges). When using the rewards points, full taxes and charges payable by the passenger.

It is an anomaly but it is in T&Cs. And basically, if you can get the fare online cheaper than the rewards points fare, then the online fare is a good deal.

ajamieson

11th Mar 2013, 11:45

Rewards4all is a total scam. The inertia of consumer bodies like the OFT means it goes unpunished.

If Flybe really believes it is offering a good deal by loading "negative" revenue fares (they are indeed a good deal) then it should drop the pretence of rewarding loyalty by operating a loyalty scheme in its current form, if at all.

JC25

11th Mar 2013, 12:58

I'm not sure scam is the right word. At the end of the day, it's pretty clear in the wording that when redeeming points, the passenger pays the tax/charges. If it happens that on that particular flight Flybe have loaded low/loss leading fares which are less than the tax, take advantage of the fare and don't redeem the points. Save them for an occasion when there are no low fares left/available.

(It would be a nice ideas if when getting a fare quote for reward points, the current online fare was shown as a comparison so customers could assess whether the want to pay in points or £).

Many people on this forum are quick to complain about how expensive Flybe are, yet we also have complaints that when they want their free reward flight, the taxes are more than the lead in fare. Doesn't this tell us something about the ridiculous levels of taxation on flying in the UK? If an airline has to pay your taxes for you to get a reasonable lead in fare, then perhaps the taxes are the problem, not the reward scheme.

lfc84

11th Mar 2013, 13:52

the problem i have with rewards4all is that you must book a return journey. you cannto book one-way. there is a solution though...use avios.com. and, when using avios.com for a reward one way flight the taxes and charge bore no resemblance to either the return rewards4all or revenue flight taxes and charges.

ara01jbb

11th Mar 2013, 14:14

There is one exception to the Rewards4All "sham" (read "bad value") ... Almost any domestic Scottish flight on Loganair. Because the taxes and charges are so much lower to/from the Highlands and Islands, a 16 point redemption can bring a Glasgow/Lerwick roundtrip (for instance) down from £250 to less than £40.

ajamieson

11th Mar 2013, 14:21

Unfortunately JC25, your plan doesn't work because a flight with anything other the cheapest fare available is blocked out for redemption reservations. Plus, the points expire within 12 months - long before I've ever been able to find redemption space.

It also incorrect to conflate the issue of high tax (which is a disgrace, I'll agree) and Flybe's incredibly opaque surcharges which, uniquely in this industry, vary according to demand dynamics. (In other words, surcharges vary between passengers on the same flight, which makes a mockery of calling them surcharges...they're not fixed fees, they're just part of the fare.) Flybe NEVER pays UK tax on behalf a passenger, it just reduces its own variable surcharges occasionally on zero fares (and, in doing so, gets right up the nose of its most regular customers).

Nothing against Flybe as a very well-run business, but let's not pretend it's anything other than a master of the art of price-gouging, well above Ryanair.

Not to mention the flat fee of GBP 11 to pay by credit card (including the official Flybe credit card) if you please...

davidjohnson6

11th Mar 2013, 15:42

We talk about Flybe charging rip off fares and indulging in price gouging... but the company is also losing bucketloads of cash. The company doesn't seem particularly dozy or filled with fat. Can a company really rip off its customers while still making heavy losses or are customer expectations too high ?

pee

11th Mar 2013, 15:53

Can a company really rip off its customers while still making heavy losses
Oh yes, it can. Some very inefficient companies do (and some bankrupt ones used to) rip off their customers "still making heavy losses", it didn't necessary help them.

Flightrider

11th Mar 2013, 20:04

The issue isn't just around taxes. For a Rewards4All ticket, you have to pay the taxes (which admittedly are high) but also the airline's fuel surcharge. In any other instance, the fuel surcharge is revenue - it's income taken by the airline and amassed in the general coffers out of which its bills are paid.

JC25

11th Mar 2013, 23:01

I don't really disagree with anything that being said apart from the use of the words scam and rip off.

They're a business, trying desperately hard to make money in an incredibly tough market place. I'm really surprised that anyone here is actually surprised that nothing really comes for free.

I honestly wish airlines could make money by offering a nice low fare without any need for extras to top up revenue to try and make a few quid. Unfortunately I live in the real world.

hampshireandy

12th Mar 2013, 08:00

I use Flybe a couple of times per year from SOU-ORY. The fares are such a joke in May that im using Air France from London City. Even including the train fare to the big smoke it is still cheaper than Flybe. For goodness sake Flybe, if you cannot offer a competitive price on certain flights then surely it isnt worth offering that product. Just concentrate on flights that you can be competitive on.

insuindi

12th Mar 2013, 09:09

" For goodness sake Flybe, if you cannot offer a competitive price on certain flights then surely it isnt worth offering that product. Just concentrate on flights that you can be competitive on."

I'd think the reverse is true - being able to charge "high" fares is an indicator of an attractive ("competitive") route.

Any business should concentrate on where it can make money - so if FlyBE manages to sell sufficient seats at mentioned higher prices, then that's what would appear prudent from a business perspective...

Lord Spandex Masher

12th Mar 2013, 09:25

Have you seen the "Flybe axing jobs" thread?

60% load factor is pretty poo and on the routes with good load factor, like the sun routes, the yields are rubbish.

It ain't working.

hampshireandy

13th Mar 2013, 06:58

'I'd think the reverse is true - being able to charge "high" fares is an indicator of an attractive ("competitive") route.'

Well if its cheaper to take the train to London and then get over to LCY and fly there to Orly then Flybe have reached the point where their fares are too high to remain competitive. And yes they are a business trying to make money, and its great to be able to support and fly from your local airport, but good old Joe flying public are now realising that Flybe have crossed that line between paying a premium for that and having to pay uncompetitive,extortionate fares.

insuindi

13th Mar 2013, 09:28

well if they cannot fill their planes on that route with the current pricing, than you are of course right. Out of interest: What are the price points from SOU vs. LCY?

Cloud1

13th Mar 2013, 15:35

11th June - 13th June

Flybe SOU £99
CityJet LCY £110

If anyone can get from SOU to LCY and be given £10 back to them (therefore not spend any money at all) I will be amazed.

Its just the same old story, flexibility with dates. If you book last minute expect to pay a fortune. If you book a few months in advance, you can get them cheaper. Same pricing as most airlines. End of story

Lord Spandex Masher

13th Mar 2013, 16:14

24/5, two adults to Nice.

LCY BA £841 Euro Traveller
SOU Flybe £1233 Plus (only ticket available)

Train ticket to LCY from SOU £82.

£310 cheaper than Flybe.

Daffydil

13th Mar 2013, 16:31

Don't limit your options to just one airline or airport is my motto. You could flyeasyjet from Gatwick to Nice for £287.98, two adults oneway. No mention of a return date so didn't check.

Lord Spandex Masher

13th Mar 2013, 16:45

While I've been faffing with these tickets and prices I've noticed that New Economy is rarely available. Now I'm a bit cynical as the only option to travel with bags is to use the Plus tickets which cost a fortune.

For example NCL to NCE 26/7 returning 28/7 for two adults -

BA Club Europe £877

Flybe Plus £2461 'kin hell!
Essentials is £920 and that's hand baggage only!

adfly

13th Mar 2013, 17:20

LSM When I've looked you'll find that using the essentials fare and adding luggage often works out noticeably cheaper than the 'New Economy' fare.

Lord Spandex Masher

13th Mar 2013, 17:27

Ah cheers Adfly, didn't realise that.

So the same trip works out at £1168, nearly £300 more than the equivalent, full service, business class ticket on BA!

hampshireandy

14th Mar 2013, 07:00

11th June - 13th June

Flybe SOU £99
CityJet LCY £110

Thanks for your research Cloud 1, but i was looking at dates at the end of May, hardly last minute, and LCY-ORY is £111, Flybe SOU-ORY was around the £160 mark.

LNIDA

14th Mar 2013, 09:23

London-Gatwick - Nice
Wednesday 15. May 2013 11:35 - Terminal: S
Flight DY2440 - LowFare
1 Adult £34.90
Return
Nice - London-Gatwick
Sunday 19. May 2013 09:25 - Terminal: 1
Flight DY2441 - LowFare
1 Adult £34.00
Total price
incl. all taxes and surcharges £68.90

I think bag charge is approx £7 for 20kg no card fee for debit, new route so keen pricing on all the ex LGW non Scandi routes, so you could get a stretched limo from NCL to LGW and still be quids in.........

insuindi

14th Mar 2013, 09:38

@LordSpandex "For example NCL to NCE 26/7 returning 28/7 for two adults -"

No new economy available because it's all Air France - and actually cheaper to be booked through AirFrance (I suspect including luggage, not sure about the impact of their new Hop! model).

@hampshireheady " LCY-ORY is £111, Flybe SOU-ORY was around the £160 mark."

Isn't £49 premium quite reasonable for not having to venture into London (given the time that takes) - of course depends how close one lives to London and how close to SOU, but I cannot see £160 being a rip-off at all (and Cityjet/AF certainly makes a loss with £111 ex LCY - with obviously the future of Cityjet being not very certain at all with AF trying to dispose of them).

scodaman

17th Mar 2013, 23:00

Anyone know why Flybe are flying Gatwick to City of Derry (LDY) tomorrow Mon 18th March?

Is it a charter?

JC25

18th Mar 2013, 15:14

Yes it's a charter for an Orchestra, inbound will be the 19th.

adfly

19th Mar 2013, 17:43

In contrast to what has been said on here about BE's sun routes and prices especially from SOU it looks as though they are doing rather well as along with AGP and ALC from EXT they will be increased for the peak season between 8th July and 22nd September.

From Exeter:

Alicante goes from 4 to 5 weekly

Malaga goes from 4 to 5 weekly

From Southampton:

Alicante goes from 5 to 7 weekly

Faro goes from 3 to 6 weekly (2 flights on Saturday)

Malaga goes from 4 to 7 weekly

Nice goes from 3 to 5 weekly

Palma goes from 4 to 6 weekly

Links:

Flybe | Corporate | Media | News archive (http://www.flybe.com/corporate/media/news/1303/15.htm)

Flybe | Corporate | Media | News archive (http://www.flybe.com/corporate/media/news/1303/15a.htm)

flybeboy

19th Mar 2013, 21:42

flybe will be using a emb175 on routes from exeter soon, it will be used on the following dailey flights man, edin, man, man mon-fri + other routes at weekends. exeter will have 3 based from march 1+ emb195, 1+ emb175, 1+ dash 8 400:D

Keyvon

20th Mar 2013, 11:00

No wonder Flybe gave up Den Helder venture after only few days. Checked fares and these were almost not affordable for anyone wishing to travel to Netherlands but oil business employees.

Janet Spongthrush

20th Mar 2013, 11:57

Are the aircraft for the summer holidays sun routes pulled from somewhere else? It's not obvious to me....

Maverick8701

20th Mar 2013, 11:57

Do you have an online source for the Exeter based emb175? We are nearly at the end of March is this something for April?

OltonPete

20th Mar 2013, 12:56

Maverick8701

I have checked one GDS source and flybe and the Exeter flights are still showing as Q400's in April May and June.

The 175's have been switched a bit with them currently showing: -

3 @ BHX (EDI, GLA & DUS in the morning)
2 @ MAN (BHD & CDG in the morning)
2 @ INV (MAN & LGW)
1 @ JER (LGW)
1 @ GCI (LGW)

Jethro's shows further 175's due March, April and May but I read somewhere that there might be a delay although there is still 11 days left this month.

I had a quick scour of the network but couldn't see any other major changes as yet

Pete

redED

20th Mar 2013, 14:01

Only 1 x 175 coming this year, the 3 others have apparently been deferred. EXT was due one but not anymore.

Maverick8701

20th Mar 2013, 14:30

OltonPete thanks for your research. I had heard a rumour that the emb175's were unable to be deffered however not heard that confirmed. Anybody with knowledge of this? I assume if they arrive they will just swap out with q400 returns.

FRatSTN

21st Mar 2013, 23:06

FlyBe have put their winter 2013/14 flights on sale. Flights can now be booked until February 2014.

Overall seems pretty similar to usual currently however there's currently no flights at all from London Luton (LTN) after October 2013. Is that usual? Has there been no BE flights from LTN in previous winters?

mizake the mizzen

22nd Mar 2013, 12:04

For those who have not heard

W2013/14 Flybe and Ski specialist Inghams are to launch flights from INVERNESS to GENVEA.
The flight operates weekly on Saturdays 21Dec2013-21Feb2014

Day6 INV 13:20 -16:40 GVA 17:20-18:40 INV E75/88Y

Great news as is new destination from Inverness.
Flybe are selling flight only through their website whilst Inghams are selling Ski packages through their website.

LGS6753

23rd Mar 2013, 21:50

A test booking today threw up two additional destinations available from Luton - Milan and Glasgow, both in direct competition with EZY. Neither route features in the online timetable. I suspect a glitch!

Has there been no BE flights from LTN in previous winters?

This winter saw a break in both IOM and JER flights between about Jan and Mar. Also, bear in mind that BA have started IOM-LCY flights recently. I suspect BEE do not have critical mass at Luton, so these flights are not core business for them. If they increased frequencies on these, moved on to the Waterford route, and perhaps moved some flights up from LGW they would start to generate more local awareness and could prosper.

78Whiskey

24th Mar 2013, 00:19

A test booking today threw up two additional destinations available from Luton - Milan and Glasgow, both in direct competition with EZY. Neither route features in the online timetable. I suspect a glitch!

Same thing happened with WAT-BHX last year. Was added and then removed from booking system (like it has been now) and was announced a week later.

If they increased frequencies on these, moved on to the Waterford route.

Hopefully! :)

guern123

24th Mar 2013, 17:17

The new E175 service starts next week I'm struggling to see when the 1st one arrives. The 1st one out 10.25 Sun 31/3/2013 appears to be E175 but the last one in on 30/3/2013 is a dash. Surely they then wont fly the dash back empty and the E175 in empty !!

OA32

24th Mar 2013, 22:51

GCI - LGW
The new E175 service starts next week I'm struggling to see when the 1st one arrives. The 1st one out 10.25 Sun 31/3/2013 appears to be E175 but the last one in on 30/3/2013 is a dash. Surely they then wont fly the dash back empty and the E175 in empty !!

Quite possibly that will be the case as the rumour is they are crewing the E175 from the UK, I don't think any of the Guernsey based flight crew have been rated on it.

BOHEuropean

25th Mar 2013, 11:05

E175 will position over from MAN, Q400 will fly empty to EXT

PeteAndre

29th Mar 2013, 14:44

GEP reports E175 will land at GCI for first time at 1300 on Saturday. First PAX flight will be 1025 GCI -GWK flight on Sunday 31 March.

VNAVPTH

31st Mar 2013, 11:55

Apparently flymaybe have cancelled a bunch of their new BCN routes as they haven't filled them. Turns out some half wit forgot to get some advertising done. Shock horror, the British public ont automatically think of flybe when they want to fly somewhere. Idiots.

spottilludrop

31st Mar 2013, 12:19

Only a matter of time before its all over I reckon

EI-BUD

31st Mar 2013, 13:23

Disappointing for SOU if the BCN route is cancelled already. Intention to fly SOU BCN ensured that Vueling ditched the route, now leaving SOU without a BCN route.

However, Vueling move the route to LGW...

EI-BUD

31st Mar 2013, 13:30

Thanks Wingo Wango...

spottilludrop

31st Mar 2013, 13:42

just heard the latest master stroke all line maintenance is now to be done by a competitors engineers.....I'm sure they will have the same drive as our guys...you could not make it up

Deano777

31st Mar 2013, 14:57

Only a matter of time before its all over I reckon

Do you know what harm this type of unfounded nonsense can do to an airline when aired on a public forum? If you work for Flybe then you should know better. There's no sniff of Flybe closing down, not even close. :ugh:

spottilludrop

31st Mar 2013, 15:06

FFS get real do you really think the losses we are racking up are a secret????:*:ugh::ugh: the ships rudderless

Artic Monkey

31st Mar 2013, 15:33

Deano777 is right. He didn't say it was a secret. Stop trying to justify why you wrote what you did. He said your comments about it being all over are reckless, and I agree :=

jetstreamtechrecords

31st Mar 2013, 19:34

Look at the share price. The losses are public record. Flybe needed the cash from Ryanair to shore up its balance sheet cos al the cash from the BAConnect deal has been blown. Rutter used to run a tight ship in the uk but now Exeter is jut playing with it and the Walker Trust just wanted out not to have to put more cash in.:{

Cloud1

31st Mar 2013, 20:01

One can only assume spottilludrop has been affected by the outsourcing and has turned sour. It's the natural reaction when changes are made which affects your job. But the others are right this is not the place to make stupid comments like those that were written.

Flybe are not going - the considerable cost saving methods introduced will help improve the company's financial situation.

Back to facts, the Sou Bcn route is only affected during, as mentioned, April and May. With the amount of routes being offered in S13 I don't think the reduction in one service is much reflection on the company's overall success. I hope that Bcn does pick up though from both Ext and Sou as its a great weekend destination.

Lord Spandex Masher

31st Mar 2013, 20:33

Yes, despite everyone being unaware of "the plan" (I hope there is one) I doubt the largest regional airline in Europe will be allowed to just fade away.

spottilludrop

31st Mar 2013, 21:00

I'm not directly affected by the lunatic move to let one of our rivals play a vital role in the operation, I do however see it as indicative of the malaise killing the company
Spandex you an bet your house on the fact if the losses continue no ones going to stop flybe fading away,why should they?

LGS6753

1st Apr 2013, 14:15

A company can continue making losses for a number of years yet remain in business. It can use reserves, increase borrowings, tap existing shareholders, sell assets, issue new shares, etc. What it can't do is run out of cash.
FlyBe must be hoping for glimmers of light in the economy, both in UK and Europe, but at present the UK economy is looking flat, and Europe positively worrying.
I suspect there is no short-term concern about FlyBe's ability to survive, but its route to survival may mean adjustments to its business model, and that could be uncomfortable for those involved.

davidjohnson6

1st Apr 2013, 16:10

Flybe share price as of Thursday evening just before the Easter weekend was 43 pence, which values Flybe as a whole (including the bits owned by British Airways, the Jack Walker Trust, all the company bigwigs, and everything else) as £32.3 million
By way of comparison, Easyjet as a company is valued at £4,280 million. Yes, Easyjet really is worth over 130 times that of Flybe.

Flybe's share price is down 15% in the last 3 months, or down 39% in the last 12 months. Shareholders at the next AGM, or stock analysts at the next public facing investor day are likely to have concerns. The presentation given 2 months ago on 23rd January was there to deal with some of the difficult questions that some of the shareholders and stock analysts would have had anyway. Jim French as Chairman+CEO and Andrew Knuckey as Chief Financial Officer will be aware of a certain amount of additional pressure on their shoulders.

Flybe | Corporate | About Flybe | Company history (http://www.flybe.com/corporate/investors/presentations.htm)
FLYB:London Stock Quote - Flybe Group PLC - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/FLYB:LN)

daynehold

1st Apr 2013, 17:42

Originally Posted by spottilludrop
Only a matter of time before its all over I reckon

Originally Posted by spottilludrop
Only a matter of time before its all over I reckon

It is really about time that some of you folk out there decided to "grow up, or shut up"! I can only conclude that you work for the "gutter press" with all you "black humourless speculation". Whilst acknowledging the right to freedom of expression some of your comments are destructive to the Company, damaging to the public and demoralising to the staff. What kind of kick do you get from "your irresponsible posts"?

rowly6339

1st Apr 2013, 18:24

Can't someone just have an opinion, things don't look good for Flybe right now anybody with half a brain can see that so why shoot someone down for having the balls to go against the grain and say what they are thinking, it's not Nazi Germany :mad:

Cloud1

1st Apr 2013, 18:36

Rowly, I dont think the issue is someone expressing their opinion - it is the choice of words they have used. It is completely inappropriate and whether you believe a company will improve with any restructuring or not you have to be diplomatic when using a public forum. It is no secret that the irresponsible media use this to obtain information which quite often is not based on fact - simply one persons interpretation of a situation.

I am not quite sure what you mean by 'things dont look good' - are you a financial analyst? Do you have any idea of what Flybe's position is against other UK airlines other than EasyJet or Ryanair

Let's just keep to facts here ladies and gents and move on

Lord Spandex Masher

1st Apr 2013, 18:46

Cloudy, I don't think you need to be a financial analyst to understand that Flybe's in a bit of poo. That's a fact, two really.

Easyjet and Ryanair are huge and profitable and worth way more than Flybe. That's a fact. In fact the comparison is borderline ridiculous.

The share price is as low as it's ever been. That's a fact.

More people than expected have, or are about to, jump ship. Costing hundreds of thousands in redundancy and leaving gaping holes in crew requirements. That's a fact.

Flybe operate two of the most efficient aircraft in the world with crew who are just about the lowest paid in the country and they can't make a profit. That's a fact.

Jim French earns nearly one and a half million pounds a year, more than Willy Walsh. That was a fact but may have changed. Wonder why the losses have been so great?! It's certainly not down to your extravagant salary. That's a fact.

None of that is a secret. That's a fact.

Do you think things look good?

Cloud1

1st Apr 2013, 20:12

I am not saying they are in the best of shapes by any means, although I do not profess to knowing the ins and outs of the company's expenditure and the total number of staff leaving in relation to those staying across the UK. Therefore I reserve my opinion on this matter which I feel is best

What I'm trying to do is get the small yet significant message out there that none of us really know how bad things are in the grand scheme of things compared to other airlines. The comparison given on here regarding Shares was Easyjet hence my reference although agreed apples and oranges.

Now in the interests of not saying anything which could be misinterpreted such as suggesting things are about to end(!!) can people please consider their choice of wording. That's all that is being requested and I really cannot see how this is a particularly big ask

Lord Spandex Masher

1st Apr 2013, 20:18

No I don't know everything, close though.

There really is no point denying things are as bad as they are, even in public, because all that guff I posted is readily available anyway.

It doesn't really matter how bad things are in the grand scheme of things or in comparison to other airlines. The only thing that does matter for Flybe is that things are pretty bad for Flybe.

Cloud1

1st Apr 2013, 20:25

More people than expected have, or are about to, jump ship. Costing hundreds of thousands in redundancy and leaving gaping holes in crew requirements. That's a fact. Not readily available as far as I am aware of. I would be surprised because until the end of May they will not know the full number of people that have gone. Just because someone is at risk does not mean they are leaving.

As I say I am not saying its all rosy

davidjohnson6

1st Apr 2013, 21:29

In my reference against Easyjet, I'm aware that to some people, a company valuation of £32m sounds like some gi-normous global multinational company. The point I'm trying to make is to gain some measure of context against another UK airline which a) other people here will recognise and b) has reliable public information, and show that for a airline with lots of aircraft, plenty of employees and which flies a lot of people every day, Flybe's value is a long way from megabucks.

I could probably have chosen a comparison against other airlines, but I'm struggling to find an alternate European airline listed on a stockmarket that would make a better comparator.

Edna Beverage

1st Apr 2013, 21:50

Jim French earns nearly one and a half million pounds a year, more than Willy Walsh.

I think that should read "is paid" rather than "earns".

:rolleyes:

davidjohnson6

1st Apr 2013, 22:09

Wingo - yes, £32m is the current market cap. There are approx 75.2 million shares in issue, so £0.43 times 75.2 million = £32.3m
The 75m shares may increase slightly to handle share options granted to both staff and directors, but it is very unlikely to take the number of shares to much more than about 76m before the 2012-2013 annual report is issued.

The 75 million share represents all the shares in issue - it includes the 36m shares owned by the JW trust, the 10.9m shares owned by IAG, the 4m shares owned by Jim French, and all the other shares available for the general public to buy and sell via a standard stockbroker as they see fit. Thus, the JW trust owns shares worth about £15.5m while IAG own shares worth about £1.7m

Wingo - yes, you're right - there is no magic in the formula.

Doors to Automatic

1st Apr 2013, 22:14

More people than expected have, or are about to, jump ship. Costing hundreds of thousands in redundancy and leaving gaping holes in crew requirements. That's a fact.

If they jump ship they won't cost the company a penny in redundancy unless employment laws have suddenly changed!

Lord Spandex Masher

1st Apr 2013, 22:31

Edna, you're right.

Doors, I meant they are going to take VR, some already have.

kcockayne

2nd Apr 2013, 17:54

All I know is that most, if not all, of the Flybe pilots here in Jersey, expect that there will be NO Flybe in a year or so's time.

davidjohnson6

2nd Apr 2013, 18:06

cockayne - I think your friends or colleagues are being a little over pessimistic. Flybe may not exist in its current form (eg taken over by other airline) but it's unlikely to disappear completely in 12 months

guern123

2nd Apr 2013, 19:27

I have been reading the posts of so called experts and their views on the future of Flybe and feel that I need to just bring up a few points
1. All we as the public and even some staff may see is what is released to media and in staff memos. I am sure that a lot more information is monitored and gathered to give the people who are in the know the information required to enable to do the best for the company.
2. We see routes being cut and dropped at present surely is a route is making a loss then this is the best thing to do. No business would continue with a route or product that losses money.
3. Yes there is a lot of restructuring happening at present but again for the long term this is for the best. Many large companies recently have either been unable to just or just ignored situations that needed restructuring until it was all too late, Woolworths, Jesssops, HMV to name a few. Everyone should be currently praising the managers and board members who have had to balls to say "We have an issue here lets do something about it".
4. Please remember all these cutbacks and restructuring are not to increase the profit margin at this stage it's just to get back into profit, it's not as if Flybe are making Billions and saying lets screw the staff over to make even more.
5. If you look at the predicted savings then next year Flybe will be back in profit, at this stage Flybe are still under their own control and selecting the best way forward. Anyone who understands how businesses work will not be surprised by this as they will be well aware how many times this happens in all types of companies.
and finally
Will everyone with negatives comments please stop them. Anyone on this forum is here because they are interested in aviation and should all be hoping for the best for ALL airlines. All negative comments do is spread worry and fear in staff and the public. This in turn weakens morale and causes people not to book with the airline. And as for the Flybe staff who do not believe that Flybe will not be here in a few years then do the decent thing and leave now and let the staff who are loyal and believe in the future do their best to support the company.
Rant over.

davidjohnson6

3rd Apr 2013, 01:33

A while ago I had a moan here about it not being possible to.access the main Flybe website from an Android device in an easy manner. Dunno if it's because someone at Flybe read my moan, but it's now been fixed. If the IT developer who did the fix is reading this, then many thx for your efforts.

six-sixty

4th Apr 2013, 06:28

Excellent post Guern. I suspect there may be one or two smug gits on here, who were maybe at risk and now heading off with for a better life but who get a kick out of a bit of schadenfreude. Good luck to you but some of us want, and yes, need the "new" company to succeed.

chubbs

4th Apr 2013, 13:45

Thanks Guern. I'm sure anyone in Flybe about to lose their job will take great comfort from your kind analysis. :rolleyes:

Cloud1

4th Apr 2013, 21:32

Guern, agree with most of what you say apart from two points. One was you said that cutting routes and non profitable services was a good move. The problem I see is that the schedules were released and within a matter of days there were cuts being made. This does not win the airline any passenger confidence.

Also, you said about praising the Management for acting. I can see where you are going with this however one has to question why the company is in the current situation it is in. One cannot help but think October 2011 was significant here.

However, you are right - the changes are a pathway hopefully to getting back to profit so lets all look at the positives rather than the negatives.

Torquelink

5th Apr 2013, 08:24

Taken from Wednesday's Aviation News:

Now many may disagree, including Flybe, but the fact is that Flybe, Europe’s largest regional airline has seen its mission economics destroyed by the introduction of the Embraer into the fleet. Flybe and others might argue that the Q400 just was not reliable enough and they had to act, this is true but as it has turned out the airline should have moved for the ATR72.
With more than five regional jet manufacturers in the market, it is clear that someone somewhere is going to lose out in a major way. For Flybe it is clear that they need to either re-organise and re-focus or re-fleet. See Airline Economics issue 13 for a full data lead story in conjunction with ch-aviation on the plight of the regional sector.

I assume that the reference to the "Embraer" is to the 175 rather than the 195 but since I was told that the deal negotiated with Embraer meant that the aircraft-mile costs of the 175 were close to those of the Q400 and, therefore seat-mile costs were considerably lower, I wonder if this has been borne out in practice i.e. whether the 175 is turning once profitable Q400 routes into losses?

VNAVPTH

5th Apr 2013, 10:47

It would appear to be the other way round. As I understand it, the 195 is the problem. It only makes money when operating the charter flights! Even full bucket and spades see route losses over the year/season! :sad:

This is of interest as TRIP in Brazil I understand have just canned their 175s as they found those to be the problem. it seems, perhaps, that only one EJET, not both is the way forward depending on the peculiarities of your airline's market segment.

Torquelink

5th Apr 2013, 11:23

Interesting -especially as when Mrs Torque and I try to book seats SOU - PMI there's rarely availabity and, when there is, the fares are £hundreds more than U2 from LGW!

ATNotts

5th Apr 2013, 11:49

Torquelink

This means that one of two scenarios are true:-

Either, they have got the supply and demand right, and that they can therefore charge an economic fare on SOU-PMI, which permits them to make a handsome profit from passengers who will pay for the convenience of flying local to driving to LGW.

Or, most of the seats are blocked off for tour operators making the service a quasi IT with very few seats on the open market, driving up the price on the few available..

You can make the same comparisons, for example, flying to Newark on Continental from the "regions" (that's anywhere outside the "favoured southest") and London. Regional fares are never as competitive as London ones - I suppose it makes up for their high cost of living!

Otto Throttle

5th Apr 2013, 11:51

And today's genius idea from the company with no money, they'll pay APD for all passengers who book in the next few days for flights covering an entire year.

So, that's next year's excuse sorted already then.

adfly

5th Apr 2013, 12:51

ATNotts - Think that may well be the case, Thomson/First Choice sell packages using seats on Flybe's Mon/Fri SOU-PMI services and it is also worth considering they have increased to route to 4 weekly from 3 last summer and up to 6 weekly for Jul/Aug/Sep so it can't be doing too badly.

insuindi

6th Apr 2013, 11:15

Does anyone know whether FlyBE changes equipment on single rotations according to demand?

I am specifically looking at BHX-HAJ over the next few days, where the next 3 days flights all appear as sold out, whilst two flights on HAJ-BHX over the coming days are full, and for a while now. All at sky high prices. Equipment appears unchanged to be Dash8 and E175 - why does BE not react flexibly by changing to E175/195 as appropriate? Is the BHX fleet fully utilised? No equipment changes possible? Does BE ever react to short-term demand fluctations?

Cloud1

7th Apr 2013, 21:10

If loads are looking good I think they do adjust aircraft schedules but they would have to consider how it would affect later services. They couldn't swap if it meant the next rotation originally scheduled in the larger a/c was full. Also with automatic checkin and seat allocation, changes could potentially mess those up and create more hassle than its worth.

HAJ doesn't do badly out of BHX and its not uncommon mainly in the summer mind you to see the E195 on the route.

E75toDUS

9th Apr 2013, 12:17

First time poster, so be gentle with me for any breaches of etiquette etc...

But my user name probably tells you most of why I've been lurking on this forum for a few weeks and have now finally joined. I'm pretty much weekly going to DUS. 95% of this is Flybe rather than Lufthansa.

Anyway, I notice some of the Summer 2014 routes have gone on sale. On the one hand, this looks like a sensible measure to increase cash/working capital, but I do wonder how many people are in the position to be booking that far ahead - e.g. are the hotels and villas bookable yet?

As for the current APD offer, it's only for flights 6 months out, so it's not going to affect yield from business fares, in which case it all looks like normal commercial activity that

1- Gets some discretionary/price sensitive sales and associated cash
2- Gets some publicity on the long-term strategic goal of getting APD reduced (particuarly for regional flying)

I'm assuming FlyBe will have known this offer was coming and factored the discounts into the original price, as then actually it doesn't cost Flybe anything. It's all to do with how far in advance you book, and day/time of travel. All the loudly shouted offers are generally irrelevant to what I pay.

Regards

hampshireandy

9th Apr 2013, 19:07

After reading comments on this and other forums re the state of Flybe at present, I wouldnt book a flight with them 12 days in advance let alone 12 months!
And therein lies Flybes problems.

Leg

9th Apr 2013, 19:42

Mr Hampshire, you are a cad Sir, and as such there is no place for you in this intelligent debate. :mad:

sdryh

9th Apr 2013, 21:02

Mr Hampshire

I work at Flybe and cannot stand people making stupid comments about my livelihood. Flybe are far from finished. If you were to take the time and look at the accounts you will see we have 45million in cash reserves and would have made a small profit on the last results if it weren't for the Nordic operation, which now is starting to return profit. Flybe has at last started to address the problems and hopefully next year will return to the black. Phase 2 of the restructuring is about to kick off, cheaper prices I hear. Should start to win back passengers and lets be positive about 2014.

hampshireandy

9th Apr 2013, 21:11

Leg, is that just the one or do you have two?? Dont think ive ever been called a cad before, i quite like that, been called a lot worse, what about a bounder and a cad, that has quite a ring to it!?

Rawtenstall

9th Apr 2013, 21:37

Being a very regular traveller with Flybe (upwards of 1 return flight a week to various domestic destinations) I have, over the years, put up with dozens and dozens of hours of delays and numerous missed connections. I have accepted this stoically, as a hazard of frequent air travel.

Recently I had cause to take a domestic day return, booked at the very last minute using the "cheapest" fare (the word "cheapest" used in the loosest sense).

On arrival at my destination - Manchester - I found that my business meeting had been postponed and therefore I politely asked the lady at the Flybe desk if she could change my return flight to an earlier departure. I was quoted a fee of £40, being the minimum change fee, which would have allowed me to arrive home 3 hours earlier than the flight on which I held a reservation.

Naturally I declined this offer to waste a further £40 and instead I visited the Flybe lounge where I proceeded to consume as much of their complimentary red wine and eat as many of their delicious biscuits as I could reasonably manage in the time permitted.

Now I know that "rules is rules" etc., but I would suggest that it would have been small compensation, considering how many hours of my life have been wasted waiting for delayed Flybe flights, for them to give me 3 hours back by permitting me to arrive home 3 hours sooner.

They know who their regular travellers are by the hundreds of unusable points on our Flybe accounts, yet it makes not a jot of difference. "rules is rules" and there is no flexibility or modicum of recognition for someone who gives tens of thousand of pounds a year to that airline. How easy it would be to create some genuine goodwill amongst its frequent customers to offset the negative feelings that many have towards them.

Hotel Tango

9th Apr 2013, 21:49

Rawtenstall, you need to see it from another point of view. If I'd forked out for a fully flexible ticket, and then found out that you on a restricted ticket had been given flexible privileges, I'd be seriously miffed. Rules are rules for a good reason. To be honest, I find £40 not too unreasonable considering. But that's me.

Cloud1

9th Apr 2013, 21:55

Rawtenstall - £40 for an extra 3 hours with my family seems far from unreasonable in comparison to what it could have been. But that is my thoughts - and this is key, it is all about what time is worth to the individual.

Out of interest, £40 is the standard administration fee which had you been on a New Economy booking which costs about £20 odd extra at the booking stage and includes a bag, SMS and seat you would have been able to change free of charge. It would only have been the fare difference to pay which it sounds like was £0 on this occasion.

Airlines will not just allow changes willy nilly free of charge to everyone. Hotel Tango gives an excellent example- another would be Mr A books a flight 2 months in advance and gets a lower price. Mr B books a later flight the same day and it costs 3 times the amount as its much busier. Mr A changes on the day and gets on the same flight as Mr B for no extra. Mr B is not amused.

Unfortunately the staff will not take in to consideration any previous delays unless maybe, you were on a day return ticket and your first flight had a significant delay. But that is up to the airline. I wouldnt mind getting my wallet out and saying of all the flights you have taken, the number on time or early will outweigh the delays - they just do not stick out in memory compared to those which caused an inconvenience. Its like anything - the bad leaves a sour taste, not the good.

BFS101

10th Apr 2013, 09:54

Rules maybe rules, however may depend who you get on the day.

I made a booking for a night in London, mid November, as a surprise for 3 work friends as BE were paying the APD equivalent. Turned out that one of my friends had a wedding and couldn't go the dates booked.

Was raging with myself, but phoned the call-centre. Albeit after being on hold for 17 minutes, explained the situation to the lady, and said the week before, or after would suit, same flight times. Changed with no charge, after speaking with her manager, and an incredibly pleasant attitude.... I was very impressed, as my wallet also sighed relief.

Tonyq

10th Apr 2013, 14:45

BFS101, myself and colleagues have had similar experiences, and have found that if you contact them quickly - within say, 24 hours, they are usually sympathetic. I sense there may be a sort of unofficial 'cooling off period' for people who show they have made a genuine mistake.

Hotel Tango

10th Apr 2013, 18:05

There's a difference if one tries to re-arrange flights (free) shortly after making an advance booking and wanting flexibility on a non flexible ticket on the day of travel.

SWBKCB

10th Apr 2013, 18:27

therefore I politely asked the lady at the Flybe desk if she could change my return flight to an earlier departure

Rawtenstall - understand the point you're making perfectly, i.e. "Don't bite the hand that feeds". Just one point, would the lady at the Flybe desk be a Flybe employee, or has the job been contracted out? If so, probably wouldn't have the authority to use her initiative and less likely to see the bigger picture of trading £40 for a bit of corporate goodwill.

E75toDUS

10th Apr 2013, 19:20

One option to "square the circle" would be to have the ability to spend FlyBe points in lieu of change fees - Rawtenstall's experience suggests it would be value-adding and the customer would obviously need to have at least some FF points.

Maybe that will happen. Slide 23 on FlyBe's Investor Relations presentation from 08/11/2012 outline a number of initiatives, and I think they have all happened except one described as "New FFP". If so, I hope they focus on finding ways to create value rather than just looking at the FFP as a short-term cost to be chipped away.

@SDRYH. I hope FlyBe survive and propser too. Maybe my experience is atypical, but my experience of going to DUS is almost entirely positive. The E-175 is much better than the LH CRJ-900, timings are good for me, punctuality is excellent (except when things go tits up at DUS late evening, due to curfew). Pity the terminal at BHX is so grotty (particularly compared to DUS).

Cloud1

10th Apr 2013, 21:25

E75toDUS - I think the idea of being able to use loyalty points to change a booking is an excellent one and I hope someone in authority in Flybe Marketing see it. :D

ajamieson

11th Apr 2013, 06:14

Very good idea from E75toDUS.

devon_guy

20th Apr 2013, 20:08

Flybe reporting bigger than expected losses on the local news BBC News - Flybe losses 'worse than expected' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-22232633)

EI-BUD

20th Apr 2013, 20:15

Interesting that BE have the lowest prices ever that I have seen from them, with less restrictions, for booking between 01/07 and end of summer schedule. as low as £7 one way and bookable on a one way basis, normally in my experience you have to book return and usually could not get low fare on the return leg.

Seems bizarres that they effectively sell below cost adsorbing all duty/airport charges. Not what I'd expect to see on a BE flight.!!

EI-BUD

IOMspotter

22nd Apr 2013, 07:53

it said losses at the lower end of expectations which I think means worse than forecasted not better. Any word on Ronaldsway base:sad:

Leg

22nd Apr 2013, 08:22

The company issued a forecast sometime ago, now we find that the loses came in at the lower end, that is not worse than expected!

The press release is not all bad news, the restructuring is on course to turn the company around and return to profitability and stability which surely benefits everyone. Just wish they would hurry up and announce the new CEO.

Marty82

23rd Apr 2013, 00:03

Was looking to book BE ABZ-MAN-ABZ with hold baggage so a New Economy fare which worked out dearer than the BM equivalent which also includes free food and drink onboard. How is a smaller operator with less efficient planes and fewer economies of scale manage to be cheaper on this route? I really wish I could support BE but the fares are just too high!

virginblue

23rd Apr 2013, 14:23

It is not difficult to be cheaper than the competition. The real trick is to be more profitable than the competition....

Capetonian

23rd Apr 2013, 14:43

I have just looked at LGW - 15 MAY - JER - 20 MAY - LGW

For flights at more or less the same time of day (lunchtime):

BA - £125.35 including 1PC luggage (which I will need)
BE - £137.60 no luggage.

BA, not my favourite airline, but better service, more reliable, overall a better experience, and cheaper.

A bit of a 'no-brainer', as the saying goes. I've booked BA.

Aero Mad

23rd Apr 2013, 14:57

It is not difficult to be cheaper than the competition. The real trick is to be more profitable than the competition....

With all due respect to that witticism, it's a shame Flybe can't seem to master either of those concepts at the moment.

virginblue

23rd Apr 2013, 15:31

:D AeroMad, you are absolutely right. But "The real trick is to loose less money than the competition" did sound a bit to negative to my ears, so I put it somewhat more optimistic...

As we are at it, given Flybe's complaints about fuel costs, I was wondering the other day if the E175 purchase makes sense from today's perspective - the E175 consumes more fuel than the Q400 yet Flybe still do not seem to operate too many long routes that really require the E175s speed compared to the Q400. So the E175 appears to be a bit of a luxury (unless the Q400 were operating at 100 per cent loads on the routes on which they have been replaced by E175s that offers ten more seats).

Maverick8701

23rd Apr 2013, 16:01

Interesting points although would beg to differ on the reliability comment the below would seem to contradict.

http://www.flybe.com/corporate/media/news/1304/12.ht

APRIL
5
2013
Flybe Tops Again For London Commuters
Leading regional airline is again most punctual carrier on key London route from Jersey

Despite significant disruption due to bad weather in the middle of January, Flybe, Europe’s largest regional airline, again outperformed British Airways for above-average punctuality on the lifeline Jersey to London Gatwick route. Punctuality statistics just released by the Civil Aviation Authority(CAA) for January 2013 record Flybe’s 90% on-time performance on this popular route. This comfortably outperforms its competitor by some 15 percentage points.

Flybe operates up to 248 jet operated flights a month between Jersey and Gatwick at which airport it continues to outperform all other carriers for its on-time performance having won its Gold Award as the most punctual airline every quarter since it was initiated back in 2011.

Andrew Strong, Managing Director Flybe UK comments: “We are rightly proud of our above average punctuality record on this crucial route to London that is so important for both business and leisure travellers. We appreciate that passengers’ time is at a premium and realise the importance of providing customers with an affordable service that they can rely upon. The statistics speak for themselves.”

Capetonian

23rd Apr 2013, 17:02

Maverick8701
Based on a press release by Flybe?

I have social, family, and professional contacts with the islands and go there frequently. Our observations are that Flybe are unreliable, and worse, don't care when things go wrong. Service levels are unacceptable and below those of their competitors.
Whatever Andrew Strong says, I disagree. So do many others.

Maverick8701

23rd Apr 2013, 17:23

You have hit the nail on the head...public perception is not good.

Take your point about company press releases in general however it is based on the CAA stats which don't lie BE have beaten BA punctuality wise (specific to LGW-JER) since 2011 I personally think that is a pretty impressive record. Obviously bad experiences stick in people's mind. BE need to look at how they deal with disruption as BE and BA stats are the opposite of what people would expect.

The problem seems to in the main be public perception. Which has to be addressed.

Capetonian

23rd Apr 2013, 17:35

The correct URL for that press release is :
Flybe | Corporate | Media | News archive (http://www.flybe.com/corporate/media/news/1304/12.htm)

It would be interesting to see stats over a longer period, for example, a year. As we all know, stats can be manipulated and I would question whether, for example, the stats have been selectively manipulated to only give punctuality on flights that operated as scheduled, thus excluded those that were cancelled, consolidated, or re-routed, something which Flybe seem to do quite often.

Reminds me of one of my favourite examples of how misleading statistical sampling can be. Years ago, the SA Post Office took full page ads in all the newspapers publishing statistics how 'x'% of all mail items posted arrived at destinations in the same province within 2 days, across provincial borders 3 days, etc, etc, all tabulated.

Right at the bottom, in tiny print it said :

These figures only consider those mail items which actually arrived at their destinations.

Rivet Joint

23rd Apr 2013, 20:09

I'm glad you have noticed that Virgin Blue. I have long asked the question why the 175 was purchased. I think it can be argued that BE's rise to the top has a lot to do with the q400 an despite the recession is it merely a coincidence that profits are now sliding with their demise?

Surely you have to ask the question why Brussels, Olympic etc are willing to take the q400's of BE's hands an pay them for the privilege? Why the likes of Eurolot, Baltic Air, Luxair are all ditching jets for the q400? Why Porter have become so big and are not nose diving like BE?

Is the 175 a folly to please morons? I think it speaks volumes that the only country that turns its nose up at the q400 is America.

EMB-145LR

23rd Apr 2013, 20:49

America doesn't turn it's nose up at the Q400. United Express have over 20 of them operated by Republic Airways, but unfortunately the aircraft don't have the range for the vast majority of 'regional' flying in the USA. The Q is great for sub 500 mile sectors, but at the regional I fly for our average sector length is 773 miles. The Q just isn't the right aircraft type to cover that sort of flying.

However, back at home in the UK, there really is very little need for the E175 on flights like MAN-EXT. The Q is perfect for the mission. The fact that the 175 has been brought in to fly GCI-LGW is just proof that the use of the E175 is more about misplaced pride and less about the lack of performance from the Q400.

E75toDUS

23rd Apr 2013, 21:32

However, back at home in the UK, there really is very little need for the
E175 on flights like MAN-EXT. The Q is perfect for the mission. The fact that
the 175 has been brought in to fly GCI-LGW is just proof that the use of the
E175 is more about misplaced pride and less about the lack of performance from
the Q400.

Is the 175 a folly to please morons?

Both these posts hit the nail on the head for me. If the main driver of buying is price, and customers aren't too bothered then obviously the Q400 is the best choice if it offers lower cost and sufficient seats.

However, I would suggest that on routes like BHX/MAN-DUS, the real profit comes from business travellers who book late, pay >£300, are more sensitive to the equipment (Audible groans when a Q400 turns up unexpectedly) and have the choice of LH CRJs. In which case, extra cost of the jet could be outweighed by the additional high-yield passengers. Obviously the challenge for BE is to figure out which routes this actually makes a difference (DUS only needs 2xE175s... how many ordered?), and whether they are doing the right scheduling, marketing and pricing to attract these passengers.

[>70/88 this morning would have pleased the managers, though perhaps helped by LH's strike on Monday - perhaps increasing perception that it is high-fare LH cannot be relied on until the dispute with the Ver.Di Union is resolved.]

Marty82

23rd Apr 2013, 23:26

I know it's about profitability but price is also important and as a Aero Mad said, Flybe don't seem to manage either on many occasions.

The BE price was without APD, Flybe was covering the cost of this, yet BM was still cheaper. So BM is cheaper, faster, includes luggage and food/drink. It's a no brainer for me!

I know that BM are newly independent so may be discounting fares to attract business but ABZ-MAN is a busy market that I'd have thought that BE would want to hold onto. BE really seem to be retreating at ABZ which is a shame.

I really don't see how the better economics of BE (aircraft type, economies of scale, pay scales, no catering and reduced baggage allowances) can't compete with BM's fares.

Moan over! Lol.

JC25

24th Apr 2013, 14:42

The MAN-ABZ route as you stated is a busy market. BE's flights are often very busy on up to five daily rotations. Perhaps it's performing well as it is and reducing fares to grab a few extra passengers who might otherwise fly BMI Regional wouldn't really serve any purpose.

If Flybe were flying this route with crap loads, then I'd see the need to reduce fares, but generally speaking, it seems to do well as it is.

High load + high fares = PROFIT
High load + low fares = Small profit/break even
Low load + high fares = small profit/loss/break even
Low load + low fares = disaster

The difficulty for Flybe (and every other airline) is finding that sweet spot where you can carry the highest number of passengers paying the highest fare possible.

Rivet Joint

24th Apr 2013, 21:06

Emb-145lr - You make a good point on the range. I still think the prop is seen in a negative light over their though.

E75todus - Also a good point. Although can BE really compete with carriers like LH? Not for me, the only way they can compete even for the business traffic is by price and that means they need the q400.

Can't deny a jet as a passenger is better and possibly a small sub-fleet of 12 like they have with the 195 would have made sense but to order 35 and with the aim to replace the q400?! Madness. Think about it, they are the only substantial UK airline with large modern props and they wiped away all the dinosaurs like BMI/bacon only to now be ditching them and being the ones being chased. Yeah that was $1bil well invested :D. What's that old saying, if it ain't broke don't fix it?

Lord Spandex Masher

24th Apr 2013, 21:10

It's called pandering to the whim of the travelling public.

Oh, and the 175 range ain't much better than the Dash.

E75toDUS

24th Apr 2013, 22:21

Although can BE really compete with carriers like LH? Not for me, the only
way they can compete even for the business traffic is by price

@Rivetjoint:
Pros of BE: E175>CRJ, Term C at DUS, timings of morning flight to DUS, punctuality/reliability. Free snack on LH :eek:
Pros of LH: Timing of evening flight from DUS, free drink. Flybe Q400 on some flights still

Would say 75% of passengers are carry-on only so baggage allowance a non-issue for many.

So this is not a carte blanche for FlyBe to think they can charge LH fares, but my experience is that it isn't only price. It is quite common for my colleagues to get the early BE flight to DUS (to get to destination before 1030), and then LH back (because BE flights back to Blighty are either too early, before 5, or too late at ~9pm). I might be on the wrong flights but the critical issue may be BE's ability to attract German customers.

But Rivetjoint makes the excellent point - are their business oriented routes where all the above matters enough to get the full value of the 35 E175s? Hmmm, that feels like a long-shot. But that is only a contract - negotiation is always an option. I do not think Embraer want BE to fail, then not pay for planes ordered which then leaves Embraer trying to find a buyer for E-Jets originally ordered by BE, at the moment when the now closed BE's jets are dumped onto the 2nd hand market...

It's called pandering to the whim of the travelling public.

But unfortunately it's the travelling public that pay the wages and keep the whole show on the road. When companies start thinking they know better than their customers, they are usually heading for a fall.

But it's an interesting point to think about - as a weekly commuter drawing against a budget, would I pay £20 more per week (i.e. 1 return) for E175 over Q400? Ummm hard... I would pay £10, but not £30. What about the other 50 odd people on the plane, does that cover the extra cost? I don't know but you'd hope BE do.

Leg

25th Apr 2013, 07:20

Many posters are spectacularly missing the point here :rolleyes:

When the decision was taken to replace the Dash with the E175 it was done on a cost saving basis, not to cost more!

It is a known fact that flybe fell out with Bombardier over the despatch reliability (among other technical issues which I will not bore the spotters on this thread with), and this accelerated the need for fleet replacement.

A deal was done to introduce the E175 into the fleet at NIL increase in operating costs, I will repeat that in plain English, the E175 costs the SAME as the Dash to operate, and it has 10 more seats to increase revenue with.

Spandex, wind your neck in, you are not party to the deals that were done, you are just trying to undermine your ex employer, not very honourable.

E75toDus, keep your £10 in your pocket, see above! :D

Edited to add, before some smart Alec does so, although the E175 burns more fuel than the Dash, the overall deal, finance, maintenance etc brings it out at the same cost basis. Also to give the customer a better product, not pandering, it's called customer satisfaction and repeat customers.
Where it has gone pear shaped now is the issue of being able to fund the new jets, but they will arrive, given time.

Serenity

25th Apr 2013, 08:00

Hear this mornings NCL/LGW canx due to he captain being made redundant and not wanting to work his notice.
Apparently the rest of the flight deck are in a work to rule??

Leg

25th Apr 2013, 09:37

Serenity, none of what you have posted is even close to the real situation.

And how about some empathy for loyal employees being tossed on the scrap heap by an unscrupulous employer?

There is no 'work to rule' in flybe. :=

Some Old Fart

25th Apr 2013, 10:05

Many posters are spectacularly missing the point here :rolleyes:

When the decision was taken to replace the Dash with the E175 it was done on a cost saving basis, not to cost more!

It is a known fact that flybe fell out with Bombardier over the despatch reliability (among other technical issues which I will not bore the spotters on this thread with), and this accelerated the need for fleet replacement.

A deal was done to introduce the E175 into the fleet at NIL increase in operating costs, I will repeat that in plain English, the E175 costs the SAME as the Dash to operate, and it has 10 more seats to increase revenue with.

E75toDus, keep your £10 in your pocket, see above! :D

Edited to add, before some smart Alec does so, although the E175 burns more fuel than the Dash, the overall deal, finance, maintenance etc brings it out at the same cost basis. Also to give the customer a better product, not pandering, it's called customer satisfaction and repeat customers.
Where it has gone pear shaped now is the issue of being able to fund the new jets, but they will arrive, given time.Indeed,some true facts here!

Serenity

25th Apr 2013, 10:54

Just passing on what a pax on the canx flight told me.

virginblue

25th Apr 2013, 16:15

A deal was done to introduce the E175 into the fleet at NIL increase in operating costs, I will repeat that in plain English, the E175 costs the SAME as the Dash to operate, and it has 10 more seats to increase revenue with.

Your admission that the E175 burns more fuel pretty much ruins your argument as fuel costs are flexible - or has Embraer hedged the fuel costs on Flybe's behalf at a certain level for the next 20 years? The calculation that the costs of the Q400 are the same as the E175 must be based on a certain fuel price. So is today's fuel price the same as the one on which the pre-order calculations were based? If today's fuel costs are higher, logic would dictate that the overall costs of the E175 today are higher than those of the Q400.

Lord Spandex Masher

25th Apr 2013, 16:20

Spandex, wind your neck in, you are not party to the deals that were done, you are just trying to undermine your ex employer, not very honourable.

Oh but I am aware of the deals that were done. Unless you can prove otherwise (this would mean that you know who I am and what I know) I think it should be you winding your neck in.

If you don't like the facts then not my problem but I'm certainly not trying to undermine Flybe as I still have many friends left there.

Is there anything in my previous post that is inaccurate?

How much fuel can a 175 carry with a full passenger load at the Flybe, cost effective, reduced MTOW?

Leg

25th Apr 2013, 17:49

Virginblue, eh? The economics of fuel hedging apply no matter what type you operate, ok the jet will use more, but like I said, it's all in the mix.

Spandex... :ugh:

Lord Spandex Masher

25th Apr 2013, 18:42

I'll take that as a 'no nothing was inaccurate' answer to my first question and an 'I don't know to my second'.

I'll tell you if you want. 4.5 tonnes. 5.5 with a Dash load. Can't go far on that. In fact give it a 40 knot headwind and you can take just about minimum fuel between LGW and INV. Not an ideal Dash replacement, even if it is the same cost to operate.

virginblue

25th Apr 2013, 19:11

@: Leg

Not that difficult to understand, me thinks.

Toyota tries to sell me a car. It consumes, say 7 litres / 100 miles.

VW tries to sell me a car as well. It consumes, say 8 litres / 100 miles. So VW says we will throw in competitive financing etc., so the cost per mile will be the same as the Toyota. This calculation has to be based, of course, on a certain price for a litre of petrol.

So, let's say, all that happens when the price for a litre of petrol was 1 GBP. Three years later, a litre of petrol is not 1 GBP, but 1.20 GBP.

Is the cost per mile for both cars still the same if the other variables are unchanged?

Or to put it differently, is Embraer covering the additional fuels costs through flexible financing / lower acquistion costs for as long as Flybe operates the E175?

Volmet South

26th Apr 2013, 07:16

Using your numbers, the incremental cost for 100 miles has increased.

Your sums were based on £7 and £8 which is a difference of £1 which has to be covered by a reduction in other costs. With the increase in fuel price on the same journey, the numbers are now £8.40 and £9.60 so £1.20 needs to be found. That's a 20% increase in cross-subsidising the fuel costs that needs to be squeezed out of another budget. If you can't do it then you have become less profitable.

Set 1013

26th Apr 2013, 07:28

Leg, i have read all the same internal info that you will of read about leasing costs, fuel and other operating costs of the 175 against the Q400. I completely understand why you think that they are on par. One question if you don't mind. Why the hell did I loose a shed load of sby last winter to operate the Q400 on a 175 route. The answer is ops were told to do that to reduce fuel costs. The 175 is not as cheap as the company want you to Think. Infact I believe they could be the downfall of this airline. The one reason for that is the man who was responsible for buying them quite simply didn't do his homework and sums correct and has f**ked up big time. Embraer saw him coming a mile off and flogged him a dead horse!

Barling Magna

26th Apr 2013, 07:58

It is difficult to believe that a jet can be as economical as a Q400 even with all kinds of financial incentives thrown in at the outset. It is the daily operating costs which make the difference in a time of rising fuel prices, to think otherwise is to swallow the car dealer's assurances.......

Flightrider

26th Apr 2013, 08:02

The deal for the 175s worked versus the Q400s when fuel was at $70/barrel, and that's where it was when the deal was done. Plug fuel prices of $110/barrel into the calculator and it looks very different indeed....and is part of the current problem.

Cyrano

26th Apr 2013, 20:56

Here (http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbb&plckPostId=Blog%3A7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3A6647fe80-0f4c-4ab5-a8b5-32f009c6ec84) is some background to the deal structure, from the time it was announced.

Even so, Strong notes that the cost, per trip, of operating the E175 was £200 above that of a Q400. The E175 has ten more seats, and the higher cost would have meant Flybe had to sell at least three of those on a guaranteed basis to make up the difference. That was too much risk, Strong says.

In came BNDES, the Brazilian export credit agency, which offered 85% financing support on the deal at what Strong calls “competitive rates.”

The entire package meant that on a per-trip basis, the E175 could now match the Q400. In the end, Embraer signed a firm contract for 35 of the aircraft, 65 options, and 40 purchase rights. Some of the options are soon to be exercised. There is still one caveat, though. Flybe’s math assumes a $90 price for fuel. At $110, the airline has to sell at least one of the extra ten E175 seats to again reach cost parity with the Q400.

virginblue

26th Apr 2013, 21:23

Does that make sense?

As they seem to calculate on the basis of an average fare of 66 GBP / 102 USD (3 seats needed to be sold to make up the higher per trip cost difference of the E175 of 200 GBP), one additional seat sold would buy them less than one barrel of jet fuel...?

Rivet Joint

28th Apr 2013, 16:14

Leg: As many posters have highlighted the fact the financial package appeared to make it look like the 175 could come out costing the same as an old q400 is irrelevant and the core of the problem. As we know, where operating costs like fuel are variable, finance sits in a strict structure. Basically it looks like BE are realising the discounted finance is not so positive looking now fuel has risen $20 a barrel. The fact someone high up who presumably has a good level of education was mugged in to buying the completely wrong tool for the job by the dangling of a relatively simple carrot is astounding and is now costing people their livelihoods. I mean you wouldn't go out and buy a car with a 5 litre engine because the salesman made the finance workable would you?! This is basic business sense and due diligence we are talking about, personally the person responsible should be one of the ones losing their jobs.

Besides the fact that the general consensus is that a turboprop is more economical than a jet just like a diesel car is over a petrol the fact that the turboprop exists and is still racking up considerable sales surely is proof enough that a jet is not on a par for the majority of shorthaul operations? If your argument was right Leg then surely ATR and Bombardier would cease to exist?

Surely the fact saab's, twin otter's, metroliner's, beech 1900's, emb 120's, dorniers, ATP's, Let 410's old dash's and ATR's are still in active service long after most of them were being produced whereas the equivalent jets are largely only survived as private jets adds further to the argument?

Surely BE would not be able to sustain (and to have grown to the extent it has) the majority of its routes with a pure jet fleet? Take Sou for example, at any one time there has been up to 15 routes just to France. Can you really imagine this being sustainable with just the 175?

Basically to summarise, it looks like some clown who should have known better has sold out a dynamic and well placed company into locking themselves into a $1bil deal for a shiny yet unworkable tool in place of the gem (q400) that has made them what they are and at the expense of many jobs and maybe even the company itself.

SWBKCB

28th Apr 2013, 16:47

The one reason for that is the man who was responsible for buying them quite simply didn't do his homework and sums correct and has f**ked up big time. Embraer saw him coming a mile off and flogged him a dead horse!

personally the person responsible should be one of the ones losing their jobs

Yeah it was one bloke in a corner with an abacus that done it, that's the way airlines go about major fleet decisions. :{

Capetonian

28th Apr 2013, 17:01

that's the way airlines go about major fleet decisions

In some parts of the world it's about this :
http://dorrys.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/under-the-table.jpg

Calmcavok

29th Apr 2013, 05:23

Look, if you're sweating your assets, the dispatch reliability of the E-Jet is a significant factor. If you can get that for approximately the same costs as a Q400, great, no brainer. Customer confidence goes up, more pax carried etc etc. The problem is, Flybe don't sweat their assets.

Volmet South

29th Apr 2013, 10:59

One factor about the deal depending on which side of the company you are on, is that there is very little demand for the E175 type rating. HR must be pleased with that.

Wycombe

29th Apr 2013, 11:48

On line timetable says BE are going daily (excl. Saturdays initially, which starts in December, 2 daily) on SOU-GVA from the start of the W13 schedule.

Presumably an attempt to take on EZY down at BOH who run almost daily (during the ski season)?

stewyb

29th Apr 2013, 12:28

Flybe may have increased frequency for W14 although still rediculously expensive. Mid Jan for 5 days (3 full days skiing with the family) from Bournemouth is c£250 with Easyjet compared to the same period from Southampton of c£600. When will Flybe learn!! :eek:

airhumberside

29th Apr 2013, 19:32

The 28th October start indicates BE are probably trying to attract more than just skiers - I guess they are wanting to convert the route to year round

Rivet Joint

29th Apr 2013, 22:35

Capetonian: Well you have to question why the loan came from a Brazilian bank, of course we are just speculating though :rolleyes:

Cloud1

30th Apr 2013, 18:14

Something to do with the fact that the embraers are manufactured in Brazil?????

Rivet Joint

30th Apr 2013, 20:03

Cloud1: Yeah was kind of the point I was alluding to :rolleyes:

Cloud1

30th Apr 2013, 20:44

Oh right.......

With the focus seeming to be on European holiday flights why don't Flybe use the E175s and introduce routes from other smaller airports to PMI, AGP etc. thinking out of airports such as NWI where loads always use to be good but BE pulled out in protest to the airport departure tax. HUY enjoyed a short season AGP on the E195 and had great loads

Lord Spandex Masher

30th Apr 2013, 21:31

Probably because it won't get there without a tech stop!

Cloud1

30th Apr 2013, 22:06

They do the MXP and have in the past done a DBV so can't see why it wouldn't work

Lord Spandex Masher

30th Apr 2013, 22:49

Put it this way. Either they weren't full or they increased the MTOM restriction, or both.

If you do the first, so you can get enough fuel on, do you make enough profit? Bearing in mind you have to sell 1 extra seat (ie. 79) at $110 for fuel to give it cost parity with the Dash? How much is gas these days?

The second, so you can get enough fuel on, you directly increase operating costs making it even more inefficient compared to the Dash.

Do they still use the 175 on the routes you mention?

You can't go that far with only 4.5 tonnes of fuel. Fact.

Edit, Milan isn't that far actually but I bet it was pretty limited though. DBV, no chance if you're full.

Curious Pax

1st May 2013, 09:22

Colleague should have been on the BE1033 MAN-Aberdeen this morning, but it was cancelled due to the inbound BE1030 from ABZ being cancelled. Purely out of curiosity he wondered why that first flight was cancelled - anyone know?

Don't worry - he's not looking to sue/claim, and was very happy with the way they shifted his day trip from today to tomorrow at no charge!

OltonPete

1st May 2013, 13:43

News Details (http://www.monarchaircraftengineering.com/News/Details/111)

Good news for the new MAEL facility as this will add more types and in theory open up more bidding for contracts.

I believe flybe staff at BHX to transfer to MAEL.

BHX-LYS - first flight has departed and returned hopefully a winner despite the down-beat analysis in previous posts on the EMB-175.

Pete

darkbarly

2nd May 2013, 15:58

Cut and paste the TTG last para please...

macuser

3rd May 2013, 21:53

I hear a deal has been struck with BE pilots - 5% pay cut , saving jobs and thanks to BALPA participation.

goldeneye

4th May 2013, 08:03

The BE/TCX connections are already available to book via Condors website using the MT codes. They are showing connections to Las Vegas, Sanford, and Barbados, Antigua.

SealinkBF

12th May 2013, 10:16

The Times is reporting that FlyBE is negotiating sale of "up to all" of its LGW slots to easyJet.

cornishsimon

12th May 2013, 11:04

Thought that others were in the running for the LGW slots ? Not just ezy

cs

adfly

12th May 2013, 11:24

The article does say they are also in talks with other airlines. I presume these are the already mentioned Ryanair and Vueling?

SealinkBF

12th May 2013, 11:39

Could be - my reading was that easyJet were favourites.

I suppose Norwegian could be in the running too, etc.

WOWBOY

12th May 2013, 11:40

oh, if they sell all the LGW slots, that would leave NQY in bad shape.

Unless EZY take over the LGW-NQY service.

SealinkBF

12th May 2013, 13:02

Still bad for NQY then. :ooh:

bad bear

12th May 2013, 14:41

It must be worrying news/speculation for the Flybe crews based at Gatwick. Lets hope there is a plan to relocate the services, planes and crews to somewhere near bye and people can be relatively thoughtful when they post here.
Are there 7 planes based at Gatwick?

If the slots sell, when willl they be transferred to the new owner?

bb

cornishsimon

12th May 2013, 19:38

My comments and questions were not aimed at NQY in general.

IF BE did drop out of the LGW routes im fairly confident that an airline will step into the LGW-NQY route which normally shifts in excess of 100,000 per year and at one stage many more with 3 airlines on the route.

EZY are starting SEN & LPL seasonally to NQY so I bet that they would add year round LGW if BE pulls out of LGW

cs

EI-BUD

12th May 2013, 19:48

This is starting to feel like when BA took over Dan Air and moved the single LHR INV route to LGW, when Manx Airlines were acquired and the IOM LHR was moved to LGW, when JER lost its long standing LHR link (excluding the short lived bmi return to the route). There is a long enough list of shifts from LHR to LGW. If routes like NQY do not generate significant transfer traffic, and clearly the demand exists, I wouldnt be surprised if routes like these are moved to other London airports. No disrespect to NQY.

The current changes at LGW around charges and more significantly the suggestion that a reasonably big operator may up sticks, shows that growth in the future in the London market will be from STN, LTN, LCY and SEN...

davidjohnson6

12th May 2013, 20:44

Is there sufficient time for Flybe to sell their winter 2013/14 slots and for another airline to plan and put new flights on sale, or are we looking at a slot sale for March 2014 onwards ?

VickersVicount

12th May 2013, 20:51

Always amazed at the number of posts generated about NQY in here...whats its annual pax throughput ?

cornishsimon

12th May 2013, 20:55

Point taken
Ill leave you all too it

cs

Cloud1

12th May 2013, 21:01

It will be a clear message from BE if they do pull out of LGW. They have just introduced the E175 on the GCI route, and have long standing roots to the JER-LGW, GCI-LGW and BHD-LGW and in the past few years INV-LGW and the NQY-LGW.

JER would be picked up I am sure by BA and EZY - I cannot see GR increasing on this one as they would have competition and are facing the increased landing fees just like BE are. GR would however I am sure pick up the slack on the GCI-LGW.

I expect EZY would pick up NQY maybe once a day, twice at the most or Ryanair may decide to put in an appearance once again. INV will remain unchanged I expect and NCL would be without.

However this is all speculation, until more details are confirmed its all we can do. It could be that only certain slots will be sold in affect closing routes or reducing frequency on others.

gilesdavies

12th May 2013, 22:30

If easyJet were to buy FlyBE's slots, I highly doubt they will take on the routes...

easyJet will want to use the routes they feel they will get maximum return from.

I wonder if FlyBE could switch ops to Luton, if they are moving out of Gatwick... That is there only other London airport they to at present, but that is only 10 flights a week to JER and IOM.

It sure as hell would break boredom of easyJet, Ryanair and Wizzair!

Anodyne

13th May 2013, 07:17

Not sure it’s a “clear message from Flybe” being forced out of Gatwick – more a clear message from Gatwick PLC that they’ve won and don’t want smaller aircraft operating into their airport.

It is however a clear message that UK aviation policy is a complete shambles, there is a massive lack of runway capacity at our hub airports, and that the UK is unable to maintain air connectivity to its regions.

ajamieson

13th May 2013, 07:24

Anodyne Spot on :sad:

chaps2011

13th May 2013, 07:29

Confirmed Flybe to sell 25 pair slots at LGW

Deals/Restructuring / Flybe confirms Gatwick slots sale talks THEBUSINESSDESK.COM (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/466377-flybe-confirms-gatwick-slots-sale-talks.html?news_section=4158)

Chaps

Barling Magna

13th May 2013, 07:41

Maybe flyBE will reconsider operations from the revitalised London Southend Airport with its newly expanded terminal, its direct rail link to eastern and central London, its 0.8 million pax per year and its lower charges........ why not move to an airport where they are still held in high esteem for their presence in the past and would be welcomed with open arms?

No doubt MAG are well aware and will catch the flyBE fish though......

davidjohnson6

13th May 2013, 08:05

Share price up 15% this morning - strong signal of approval from stock market

Lord Spandex Masher

13th May 2013, 08:59

So that's 22 years of history down the pan then.

Barling Magna

13th May 2013, 09:17

One of history's lessons is that money talks and wins all arguments......

MCDU2

13th May 2013, 09:40

Volmet South

13th May 2013, 10:31

Share price up 15% this morning - strong signal of approval from stock market.

Even a dead cat will bounce if it is dropped from high enough. Approval from the markets only happens when you have a compelling and believable story on how you will invest the capital i.e. how you will use the money to make more money. I hope the board are in a position to do just that.

ajamieson

13th May 2013, 11:40

I would have thought that selling off assets would have been a bit of a warning. Perhaps the investors are happy (and hence share price rising) cos they are hoping to recoup some of their investment as opposed agreeing with a sell off?
Exactly. I don't think it's approval as much as relief. Cash is cash at this desperate stage.

Potentially very bad news for some key UK air links - particularly NQY (sorry for mentioning!)

E75toDUS

13th May 2013, 11:57

I would have thought that selling off assets would have been a bit of a warning.

Not necessarily. My analysis of the situation:

LGW have raised landing fees for smaller planes. This suggests they expect to be able to hit 100% runway capacity with 737/320 series aircraft, and the extra passengers mean more revenue for the airport overall.

This now means that FlyBe cannot profitably operate their fleet into LGW. Option 1: BE could lease 737s if they felt they could fill them profitably, but if they can, then surely EZY can too, who will kill them head-to-head due to scale. So not feasible. You either operate domestic flights into these airports with A319 or larger, or not at all.

Option 2: If LGW capacity is tight, then what the slots are worth to FlyBe for is a lot less than what the same slot might be worth to EZY, BA, or a Gulf carrier. If something is worth more to somebody else than it is to you, then it's something worth selling.

Option 3: Staying at LGW with RJs takes BE along the path towards the situation bmi found itself in at the end - flying E145s into LHR, and completely unsustainable.

Approval from the markets only happens when you have a compelling and believable story on how you will invest the capital i.e. how you will use the money to make more money. I hope the board are in a position to do just that.

:ok: At the moment the story seems to be mostly about reducing cost and waiting until the UK economy picks up, which does reflect the relationship between air travel and the macro economic picture, but doesn't make me want to rush out and buy FlyBe shares.