FlyBe - 6

[VeroFlyer]

I think the writing is on the wall for the ABZ base with Flybe, really can't see a future for it. If the 175 is only to operate MAN and BHX then that seems like a massive under utilisation of an airframe. Shame, some good people up there.

[JobsaGoodun]

If the 175 is only to operate MAN and BHX then that seems like a massive under utilisation of an airframe.

If they were operating once a day to each destination then maybe but I'm pretty sure that the aircraft will be fully utilised. Bearing in mind that the average length of each flight (BHX & MAN) will reduce compared to LGW, I think that utilisation may even improve as the Embraer that did 6 flights per day, can now do 8.

[VeroFlyer]

Yes but it's not operating 6 or 8 times a day. It's going to be operating one rotation in the morning and 2 in the afternoon...the rest filled in by aircraft from the MAN and BHX bases...mmmm productive!

[JobsaGoodun]

I guess there's no point in flying the thing unless it's making a meaningful contribution to cover the costs.

Perhaps Flybe will get more revenue (and yield) flying MAN/BHX than heading into LGW following their significant increase in charges to smaller aircraft.

[davidjohnson6]

Spring / early summer 2013 for Flybe now released - looks like there's been a fair bit of tweaking and rescheduling compared to summer 2012

Anyone know when Loganair are going to release, or is this all tied up with bmi regional ?

[lfc84]

no availability for rewards4all :ugh:

[cornishsimon]

What sort of tweaking ?

Does NQY get anything ?


cs

[davidjohnson6]

cs - see for yourself...
Flybe Timetable (http://www.flybe.com/timetableClassic/timetable.jsp)

[GayFriendly]

I see that SOU-BCN has been included, I take it Vueling are not coming back on that route?

No seasonal French routes for BHX, considering the very average loads on these this summer will they be back at all? They were released quite late on last season so are they under review?

[cornishsimon]

So the answer is just LGW and MAN ?

Where's EDI ?


cs

[Jamesair]

and NCL....but maybe they start after 14th July?

[davidjohnson6]

CAA stats indicate that NCL-NQY had 304 scheduled passengers in May 2012, 584 passengers in June 2012 and 540 passengers in July 2012

[cornishsimon]

NCL-NQY was only a once weekly anyway I think so that sort of passenger numbers aren't too bad tbh.

I'm more concerned that its just MAN & LGW for next year as far as multi weekly flights go.


cs

[FRatSTN]

The new East Midlands base doesn't add up. All flights to Belfast-City, Edinburgh and Glasgow (which covers the majority of all FlyBe EMA flights) are operated by aircraft from those bases, so doesn't effect East Midlands aircraft. FlyBe have previously said they will have two aircraft at EMA by summer 2013, which seems to be the case.

Take the weekdays, which are all idential in EMA's case. One aircraft seems to be fine, flying: EMA-CDG-EMA-JER-(w route to somwhere else)-JER-EMA-CDG-EMA. The second aircraft shows only 1 rotation, flying: EMA-AMS-EMA, with that flight leaving East Midlands at 14:30. I read on the FlyBe website earlier in the year that they planned to increase the Amsterdam route to twice daily by summer 2013. Two problems:
1) they are only showing once daily
2) Surely they would fly an early morning and evening service if they were to increase to 2 daily flights, meaning this 14:30 departure would be cancelled/moved to a different time.

Even if it were to increase to twice daily, then there would still not be enough flights to cover this second aircraft. It would either:
A) sit on the ground for hours (which I very much doubt)
B) operate W rotations from Amsterdam
C) have some flights from the BHD, EDI or GLA route moved onto this aircraft.
D) operate a new flight/route

I'd say a new flight/route is most likely although what route would it likely to be? I'd say NQY (since BmiBaby flew that route) but that would only go in the summer holiday period realistically which would only solve the issue for 7 or 8 weeks, not the whole summer season and not this March to June time that has been released today.

Any further suggestions as to what the hell is going on???

[Aero Mad]

Let's wait for the full summer 2013 timetable to be released before jumping to any conclusions. What may seem strange now may get a little rejigging following the release of seasonal routes.

On a different note, anyone care to enlighten me as to when GCI will get a 175 on the LGW route? It's been a long wait...

[mathers_wales_uk]

Flybe accuses OFT fof failing to clamp down on card charges - click to view article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/10/09/flybe-accuses-oft-of-failing-to-clamp-down-on-card-charges/http://)

I have to say they got a bloody good point

[Cloud1]

This is a very dissapointing chain of events - basically, whether you agree or not with debit card charges it generates an awful lot of revenue for airlines which are currently seeking any method of earning the cash. For those that adhered to the OFTs request, they are essentially waving goodbye to thousands, even millions of pounds a year whilst those that ignored the directive continue to make money out of charging for debit cards.

Just goes to show that when an airline does what its told, it is still essentially penalised. I really hope that the OFT wakeup and seriously take in to consideration Flybes complaint.

In an economy which doesnt do airlines any favours whatsoever, these set backs really have a huge impact.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Perfect timing to distract attention from ONE (http://avherald.com/h?article=4571af16) of, I've heard, FOUR engine failure/in flight shut downs in a week!!!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I've heard, FOUR engine failure/in flight shut downs in a week!!!


I've just adjusted your quote for you.

I didn't post it as a fact but a rumour. You might want to get your colleagues to reign in their story telling!

[mathers_wales_uk]

Thos who have adhered to the instructions set by the OFT are at a disedvantage especially as at first glance prices may be more expensive than those who are not adhering to the instructions.

The whole reason for these instructions were of course not for airlines to stop making money but to stop the fair paying passengers from being charged ludicrous amounts of money for a transaction that in reality costs a fraction of that charged. Also it was to make things more transparent for the customer who would have thought the fare at the beginning would in fact be the end fare until it was too late.

[Cloud1]

Lord Spandex, interesting as only aware of one - and that was hardly a drama all things considering. Care to use your rumour network to identify the other examples and share??

Only of course if it is worth the read and not simply crew following SOP

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Well a google will tell you there was one departing Inverness in July and two diverting into Manchester, one in July and one only a few days ago. Ok not within a week but within three months of each other.

Those are the ones in the public domain already so surely you should have known about all of them. I'm sure neither of them was a drama and had I thought that was the case then I may have sensationalised my post a bit.

It would be remiss of me to actively advertise, in detail, any other failures, at least before they become public which they inevitably will.

Bottom line is just because I said there were 4 it doesn't make it true or not. If it's 3 or 5 I don't particularly care.

[Aero Mad]

Ok not within a week but within three months of each other
Bottom line is just because I said there were 4 it doesn't make it true or not. If it's 3 or 5 I don't particularly care.

You conveniently choose to ignore the massive exaggeration of timeframe which you previously employed... that's a pretty big deal as you specified a rate of failure of four in one week. If that wasn't due to bad luck then that would have been 48 failures in three months. Yet in fact it was only three/four/five failures or shut-downs over a three month period - a massive difference! Get your facts right before posting such absurdities :ooh:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Yet you conveniently ignore that I said these were the ones in the public domain already.

In fact I'll even correct myself and point out that one of the Manchester diversions was from 2010.

You can wait for AVHerald or the AAIB reports, however long that takes, for any more detail on the recent ones.

Just because you haven't heard about them yet doesn't mean that they haven't occurred.

[adfly]

Flights are now on sale until 8th September 2013, does anyone know when we could expect any new routes to be announced? (So far only SOU-BCN has appeared although not with a formal announcement and EXT-BCN/NCE were announced a while ago.)

[mizake the mizzen]

Some of this was already known, some it is new..


flyBe Outlines Summer 2013 Expansion (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/airlineroutenews/~3/8KF3aYoK8qs/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email)
Posted: 09 Oct 2012 09:20 PM PDT
Update at 0420GMT 10OCT12
flyBe today announced planned service expansion for Summer 2013. Initial information on planned service expansion. Reservations for these new routes will be opened soon.

NEW ROUTES
Exeter – Barcelona* 2 weekly
Exeter – Nice* 2 weekly
Southampton – Barcelona eff 02APR13 3 weekly
BE1943 SOU0700 – 1005BCN E95 24
BE1943 SOU1335 – 1640BCN E95 7
BE1944 BCN1045 – 1155SOU E95 24
BE1944 BCN1720 – 1830SOU E95 7
*Previously reported and opened for reservation since September 2012
Following routes to operate during Summer season for the first time in 2013:
Birmingham – Amsterdam 16 weekly
East Midlands – Amsterdam 1 Daily
East Midlands – Glasgow 18 weekly
East Midlands – Jersey 1 Daily (31MAR13 – 30APR13 3 weekly)
East Midlands – Paris CDG 12 weekly
Southampton – Nantes 1 Daily
Planned Frequency Increases on following routes:
Exeter – Alicante
Exeter – Faro
Exeter – Malaga
Exeter – Palma Mallorca
Jersey – Cardiff
London Gatwick – Inverness
Manchester – Newquay
In Summer 2013, flyBe to offer over 2770 weekly flights on more than 120 routes.

Source: Airline routes on line.
http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/airlineroutenews/~4/8KF3aYoK8qs?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email

[Wycombe]

Just had a quick look through the BE online timetable, and still quite a few missing, or reduced, compared to what operated this year, for example:

SOU-INV - not showing at all

NQY-BHD, NCL, NWI, EDI - not showing at all

NQY-GLA - shows starting 27th May, but only 2 per week initially, then 3 from beginning of July. Less than this year which was at least 4pw I think?

No regional France from BHX at all

No regional France from EDI, MAN (apart from NTE) or NCL

Either it's still WIP or this is a sizeable reduction in S13 seasonal flying compared to S12?

[BHD2BFS]

nothing new from BHD for 2013?

[insuindi]

plus BHX-HAJ stays at a meagre 7/7, down from this summer's 12/7. They must make incredible yields on the BHX-STR route for that to stay at 11/7 despite far lower pax numbers than on BHX-HAJ.

[Cloud1]

You are boring me now Lord Spandex, go to bed

Back to the topic of the minute - the S13 schedule. Seems far less than normal, although BE Management were keen to increase leisure flights to Spain etc. Could we maybe see some of these routes opened up from other outstations where FR or MON dont have such a large presence?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

If you don't want to know the answer then don't ask the question.

As it is you can see for yourself there are more engine failures than the one that you know about. Didn't one of your aircraft have two in rather quick succession recently? Was there one in Glasgow recently? Plus the Manchester one? Could be why the share price is lower than it ever has been at the moment.

I'm sure I'll be proved right, or wrong, once the AAIB reports are published.

As for increasing flights to Spain, they might do if the yields were any better than they have been historically.

[scr1]

London Gatwick – Inverness

the BE7324/7325 which has been axed this winter back on??

not really expansion is it or a frequency increase as this is the first year that this flight has been cut

[Cloud1]

Yes Lord Spandex, that is exactly why the share price is down. Technical faults have that effect because the whole world knows about everything that happens :rolleyes: Your post contains the most ridiculous comment I think I have heard for quite some time so well done.

No-one actually asked for your opinion on these alleged events, however your ability to make a sweeping statement with very little evidence to initially support it did encourage questions. I thank you for answering them, but I choose to ignore it.

Whether or not there have been engine shutdowns inflight I really do not see any relevance to previous comments on the thread. Out of an average of 400 flights a day, the reported number of issues in your post are not really relative to the number of cycles each aircraft completes.

As I say, go to bed Lord Spandex - you are offering little in means of useful content and are just trying to provoke reaction. You have succeeded, so you can hold your head high although this is where the subject ends. Certainly from my part anyway.

To close however, just wish to clarify that it is not my aircraft nor do I work for the company (any longer). However I have a realistic view on the airlines operation.

SCR1 - I thought that, seems its just marketing spin

[Lord Spandex Masher]

No-one actually asked for your opinion on these alleged events, however your ability to make a sweeping statement with very little evidence to initially support it did encourage questions. I thank you for answering them, but I choose to ignore it.

Well, as I can demonstrate below YOU asked. You're now choosing to ignore the answer. That's a bit strange.

Lord Spandex, interesting as only aware of one - and that was hardly a drama all things considering. Care to use your rumour network to identify the other examples and share??

Furthermore aircraft reliability will have an effect on a company's share price as people will buy and sell shares based partly on the confidence they have of that particular airline.

You are correct that four engine failures isn't a huge amount but you've chosen to ignore the time frame. Would you agree that four engine failures or shutdowns within a week of each other is rather worrisome?

If you are being provoked into reaction by what I've posted, on a subject on which I appear to have more information than you, that does not mean I am posting for a reaction and says a lot more about your short fuse. Of course you can't really know why I'm posting can ya? Not a good argument.

[Artic Monkey]

LSM

I normally listen to what you have got to say but this time I have to say I agree with Cloud1 to a point. Your post/posts were rather dramatic, and even though you stated "and/or in flight shut down" you are continuing with the "engine failure" for effect. You are indeed not in possession of the facts so you do not know whether they were full engine failures or in flight shut downs. Being a pilot yourself you will know there is a distinct difference between the two. I'll give you a clue, there were more IFSD than engine failures. You do the maths.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Fair point AM, any time I've not written in flight shut down alongside engine failure is simply because I couldn't be bothered and not for effect. Of course I could've written IFSD but I didn't, don't know why. I apologise.

I will state that any time I've mentioned engine failure I intended to include IFSDs in that number. Of course if one didn't SDIF then that could well lead to a failure which is why we do shut down.

Three of one and one of the other wasn't it?

[cornishsimon]

NQY-BHD, NCL, NWI, EDI - not showing at all

NQY-GLA - shows starting
27th May, but only 2 per week initially, then 3 from beginning of July. Less
than this year which was at least 4pw I think?



Thats all looking rather bad for NQY


cs

[anne747380]

I travel regulary on the lovely Flybe E-195,just wondering if there is a E-195 "Hangar Queen"?G-FBEH has had a few misshaps.Any idea?

[redED]

anne747380 I travel regulary on the lovely Flybe E-195,just wondering if there is a E-195 "Hangar Queen"?G-FBEH has had a few misshaps.Any idea?


Anne you asked this very question back in May and the answer remains the same. The EJETs have a dispatch rate of >99.5%. There is no "hangar queen". What's the obsession?

[Rivet Joint]

Hanger queen? What a very odd comment. I didn't know sickly aircraft could be a fetish but guess you learn something new every day :yuk:

On a serious note anyone know how many more q400's are going to be retired?

[anne747380]

I really like these beautiful Brazillian Jets.I run a Flybe Embraer group where we share all infos on our favourite jets. People who work for Embraer from Brazil also joined my group.I fly on them regulary and the last time the Captain,a true gentleman,let me sit in the left seat and he took photos which was wonderful.He and the younger copilot were so friendly and helpful.Do you fly the Embraer yourself?If so,you are truly lucky.

[anne747380]

RJ,
Hangar queen: Definition with Hangar queen Pictures and Photos (http://www.lexic.us/definition-of/hangar_queen)

[billyg]

Apols if this has already been posted :

BRITISH regional airline Flybe is expanding its operations in Scandinavia after reaching an agreement with Finland's Finnair.

The two companies have signed a contract that will see Flybe operate 12 Embraer jets using Finnair livery. This takes
the number of aircraft flown by Flybe's Nordic arm to 28.

[JAR]

Flybe Contract and Trading Update - London Stock Exchange (http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=11361081)

[onyxcrowle]

Hi here this perhpas a question for the mods, Im trying to view the 'last page' in this thread but it wont open. When I try view on the mobile it says I am not authorised?.
Any idea what the issue is?.

[PT6Driver]

onyxcrowle
No idea but it's happened several times to me as well. From PC it just goes back to the top of the second last page evem though there are several posts on the last page.

Maybe it's a conspiracy :hmm:

[Aero Mad]

I think it is nothing more odd than the forum system creating a new page when a certain number of posts have been made on one page already open. The new page is inaccessible until posts start to fill it.

[onyxcrowle]

Ah ok thanks guys

[VeroFlyer]

Dont know what you guys think but Flybe really seems to have lost its way recently. Route cuts, base closures, and grounding aircraft. I know a few summer routes have been announced for summer next year from...surprise surprise Exeter (which seems to be the centre of the universe according to management), but is that it?!
The share price is the lowest it has ever been, perhaps ripe for a takeover?
The question is, who?!

[Maverick8701]

The rumour (caution rumour) that seems to be gathering a lot of pace is that BACF will be 'integrated' from IATA Summer 2013 due to be announced after Christmas guess we will have to wait and see unless anyone has any more concrete info??

Can't see a takeover all the big players are trying to distance themselves from regional operations.

Only other thing I have heard potentially is the much talked about Loganair/Suckling/Regional tie up as either a Flybe franchise like Loganair or Flybe Scotland and using Flybe's huge options on the ejets to replace Regional's 135/145's who knows???

Anyway purely speculation on a Sat afternoon ;)

[Tonyq]

BACF 'integrated' into what? Are you saying FlyBe?

[Skipness One Echo]

BA would shoot themseles in the foot if they downgraded LCY to the flybe model. It's a premium market.

[EI-BUD]

Flybe really seems to have lost its way recently


They certainly seem to be diversifying the opertion, spreading their risk, by going into flying for Finnair and work for Brussels Airlines.

On the domestic market, not only due to fuel prices and airport price rises they have a fair challenge from easyJet more than before, these issues have to be overcome.

One would question how will the smaller UK regional airlines survive as independent brands in the coming years, a coming together and a pooling of resources would make a lot of sense from a brand builind and recognition point of view, as well as the savings that could be achieved in many areas.

Flybe need to stick to their regional model and avoid getting in at the deep end up against airlines like easyJet, while yes BE can offer frequency and have lower costs in operating Q400s, many of the routes where easyJet compete on must be at best marginal.

EI-BUD

[ALLMCC]

In theory, operating costs for the Q400 should be low however, haven't Flybe had considerable reliability issues which would, in turn, increase operating costs? Only asking.

[Romeo t]

Hey guys,

Well there are for sure some ups and downs in aviation however since I have been with flybe - the only positive news was the orders on the Emb. I have been with the company for a few years now.. I can see the company vision of lcc model with lots of frequencies, the million dollar question is - is it working? Why can't we compete with easy or Ryan air? Our shares are so low - why nobody will take an advantage and buy part of our company? Another operation loss next year? why can't engineering (MRo) and flybe merge as one company? What will be the next excuse to our shareholders?

The management should look at their staff as a really asset. It is the staff that save lots of money to this company. Our wages are shambles comparing to the industry within the uk.

I had a chat with one of the managers recently and his reply was very easy - if you don't like it just join the orange company. I was gobsmacked. He left me with no option other to apply.... Hopefully I will get there sooner rather than later.

[Rob Courtney]

Flew back from Fraggle yesterday, one thing I did notice that has changed for the worse is you are no longer allowed to pick your seat at the automated check in, rather you get a note saying basically this is your allocated seat, you can change it but you now have to pay for the privilege. I can sort of understand that if you pre book but all this will do is remove the advantage of checking in early.

When I asked why I was told the flight was full, imagine my surprise when there were only 30 people on the Q400, so I just sat where I wanted

[Tonyq]

To be honest, I always thought that was a bit of an anomaly. If you checked in online, at any point from 36 to 2 hours before departure, you got no choice of seat - just take what you are allocated by the system. However, if you went to the airport kiosk you got to choose from whatever was still available.

That said, once regular pax get wise to this, rather that paying extra for a chosen seat, I'd guess that more will go the check-in desk, where they'll be able to haggle with the agent, which must surely be the exact reverse of what the airline wants to achieve!!

[RVF750]

The fundemental problem is the Q400 is nose heavy and when it's only half full, you all want to sit at the front and carry hand baggage so it can't fly.

Even full, without bags it is too nose heavy to fly so may need ballast.

That's why you are sent to the back unless you pay up. A flight may look full to the agent because the majority of the front or middle front would be blocked off and unavailable for trim.

If you all sit a the back the fuel bill is about 4% less than if you sit spread out fully. The fuel bill is what is killing ALL airlines off slowly but surely....hence the need to try to minimise it.....

[Captain Smithy]

Someone asked the question "Why can't FlyBe compete with Easyjet or Ryanair?". Perhaps a case in point would be the flight prices compared with other low cost carriers.

Future wifey and I flew Inverness-Gatwick a couple of months back. We booked a good month in advance. Flybe wanted in the region of £100 per seat each way, and that was the cheapest option. Easyjet on the other hand offered us £120 in total, both of us, return. Guess who we flew with?

The harsh fact is FlyBe markets itself as a low-cost carrier without actually being low-cost. It's low-cost in all but price. Perhaps therein lies the reason why FlyBe is struggling. People won't fly with you if you charge almost 4 times what a competitor airline i charging, for the exact same customer experience. No brainer.

Smithy

[Romeo t]

Captain smithy,

Well the truth is that flybe offer a better service to Inverness community. They offer three flights a day to London gatwick and flybe also serve main hubs from Inverness like Manchester, Birmingham and even Amsterdam hence that is why they have two aircrafts based in Inverness.

The concept of flybe's business model is to have more frequencies using a smaller aircraft. Inverness is a very good example of this. Flybe already pulled out of Aberdeen cause of competition... Will it happen again to inverness if easyjet start putting more pressure on flybe by adding more routes from gatwick with cheaper price? This is my concern!

Well as you mentioned before flybe price is expensive comparing to Easyjet whilst pilots salary is GBP 20,000 yearly lower than easyjet. Not to mention a better type rating and a better progression of getting a command.

As an airline pilot with flybe - I can't see any progression. I am looking at a 20year to get my command on the Emb fleet...

I hope the management cooperate with us rather telling us to join easyjet instead.

[EI-BUD]

Someone asked the question "Why can't FlyBe compete with Easyjet or
Ryanair?". Perhaps a case in point would be the flight prices compared with
other low cost carriers.


This is a very good point. Flybe is a regional carrier and regional flying is what it needs to stick too. easyJet and especially Ryanair struggle to compete with Flybe profitably in markets that are thin and struggle to support multiple rotations on 737/319 daily. Here is where BE can win with business traveller, multiple daily sorties on Q400 can be hard to beat again on thin routes.

BE getting in heavily in large markets where it doesnt have the route to itself is a bad move. easyJet seem to be very interested in BE markets and following in on their heels at airports like IOM JER LGW etc, and domestically shows that Easyjet see good opportunities where BE have developed markets already.

Some routes e.g. IOM LPL are questionable in terms of the prize but given the short sector it is easy to accomodate it, plus easyJet are in for the long run, so will stick at it until they win the business overall.


EI-BUD

[LGS6753]

From Travel Mole:

Air France and Flybe expand codeshare

Air France has signed a new codeshare partnership with Flybe to launch a service from East Midlands Airport to the rest of the world via Paris.
The twice-daily service will start on October 28, operated with Bombardier Q400, 78 seat aircraft.

[teen_pilot_95]

I would have to say Smithy is spot on there. Used to be able to fly Gla/Edi to Ext for £200 for four, now its cheaper to fly Ezy to BRS and hire a car.

Incidentally I'm £128 to fly from SOU to GLA tomorrow evening, returning on Sunday night, but I didn't expect it to be much less because of the weekend.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Captain Smithy ...

You have hit upon the most widespread public misconception in the airline industry. FlyBe is indeed a 'Low Cost Carrier' [LCC], because this term applies strictly to the 'costs' element of the corporate balance sheet which is kept as low as possible. The term 'low cost' applied in this sense does NOT refer to the fare structure offered by an airline to its customers. Operating with a low cost base offers a company the flexibility to sustain a low fares policy should it wish to do so, but there is no obligation on the airline to make cheap tickets a priority. In most cases, LCC's will use established yield management techniques to sell seats in accordance with profit maximisation objectives.

When traveling with a 'Low Cost Carrier', what the customer actually encounters is a 'No Frills' product priced at a level which maximises the company bottom line. Obviously, LCC's are more than delighted if their customers presume that they will always offer cheaper fares than their competitors. This popular misconception pushes additional business their way. It is amazing how many travellers book flights without checking tariffs offered by all carriers on a route. Legacy carriers in particular are often overlooked.

[Captain Smithy]

Whilst I agree with the concept shed, FlyBe does indeed market itself as a low-fares airline. I regularly see adverts for FlyBe proclaiming "cheap flights" but over the period of several years I can honestly say I'm absolutely buggered if I've been able to find any. Meanwhile other low-cost carriers are able to undercut FlyBe with much cheaper fares for the exact same customer experience.

The bottom line is, low operating costs should (note italics) mean lower fares. If I can fly with say BA and have a decent hand/hold luggage allowance, included on-board meal, no rugby scrum to get on the aircraft first etc., or fly with BE where I get the "low-cost" experience, yet both cost the same price, as the customer I'll always go for the better option - value for money. It's like choosing between a Rolls Royce that hapens to cost the same as a Lada, it's a no-brainer which one you'd pick of the two.

BE's advantage is that it does tend to offer more frequency of services than other LCCs (e.g. at Inverness) but in all honesty as the customer you have to weigh up the costs and that is ultimately what wins the deal. At the end of the day neither I nor anyone else is willing to pay top-dollar for the low-cost experience; if on the other hand the low-cost experience results in a low fare, that is acceptable.

I always compare flights with different carriers to compare. The differences can be quite astounding. And low-cost is not always "low-cost"!

It's the harsh law of economics and business. I like FlyBe, they have nice aircraft and professional crews, the service is good, but for what it is it is far too pricey. Sadly I get the same customer experience on EasyJet for a much reduced price, so unfortunately that's who'll get my business at the end of the day.

Smithy

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Yes, but again remember that for the passenger it isn't a 'low cost experience' one is paying for ... it is a 'no frills experience'. Big difference. All the rest is marketing. The 'low cost' bit is strictly limited to the balance sheet. The range of tariffs promoted to customers will vary according to profit-driven yield management practices. These fare levels are set with the best interests of shareholders in mind; the business is run to give them a healthy return on investment. This is not a criticism of the business model, it is simply a statement of the reality. A low cost base never obliges a carrier to offer cheaper fares than the market will sustain; it just gives them the option to do so tactically. The ability to offer a cheap fare does not imply an obligation to do so. In many instances shareholders will be better served by higher pricing of the product. In the boardroom, shareholder interests take priority over those of bargain-hunting budget travellers.

In terms of your suggestion to shop around for the best deal from the various carriers, that is exactly the right approach. It is just unfortunate that many people less familiar with the industry than regular readers here make misguided assumptions about the competitiveness of fares offered by no-frills carriers.

Moving specifically to the case of FlyBe, it is interesting to note that this company is now marketing different tiers of product with additional 'frills' included at higher fare levels ["FlyBe Plus"]. This is a model which is likely to be more widely adopted by the airline industry going forward.

[Torquelink]

Smithy sums up the Flybe experience pretty well - professional crews, good service and appropriate aircraft but at, usually, high fares. And yet they don't make money! Given their fares, load factors and pay rates, I'd have expected them to make a substantial margin but they don't seem to make a bean. I know they always blame one off "special factors" but the bottom line is their bottom line is in mostly red ink!

Maybe one clue: Mrs Torque and I regularly fly to PMI. We're within 30 mins of SOU which is a great little airport. Flybe have just three services a week in summer whereas EZE from LGW have at least 50 plus MON etc etc. Huge local demand for PMI but fares and lack of frequency send us all trekking round the M25. Initial daily flights plus reasonable fares would quickly lead to double dailies and be highly profitable I'd have thought but Fllybe must know better - or do they?

[Captain Smithy]

More or less sums it up torquelink. Charge too much, people don't buy your product. Don't charge enough, you don't make money. Get it wrong and you end up stuck in a never-ending spiral of increasing prices and decreasing customers, ending in the inevitable.

EZY and others market very aggressively whereas BE don't seem to have that same killer instinct, which as far as I can see is where their problem lies. The option of different "levels" of service i.e. the Standard, New Economy and Plus is a good idea which I like, and hopefully it will be offered by other airlines, but I don't know anyone who's ever taken the "plus" option, primarily because it's too pricey, and then you're just as well off flying with BA. In some cases the "Plus" is more expensive than the likes of BA, a lot more. Ultimately you need to charge enough in order to make money, but also don't charge so much that customers recoil at the price tag and end up going elsewhere for a better deal, in which case you're back to square one.

It might be all about the profit for the shareholders, but without the customers, there won't be anythng for the shareholders...

Smithy

[Captain Smithy]

Hi WW,

Sorry I don't mean to continually mention BA, it's just an example that for similar pricing you can fly with a non-LCC hence better value for money. I tend to compare EZY and BE as both are LCCs operating the same route from my home base with what I can see as the same level of service but with vastly different pricing.

You are correct that there's a price on time. I travel to the islands a lot with work. Either we can go with Loganair and get charged an arm and a leg, or drive for a couple of hours and get a ferry for under half the price and no luggage restrictions for all the tools and equipment I have to carry. That way it can take the best part of a full working day to get anywhere, or under an hour by air.

You pays your money and takes your choice, as they say...

[Haven't a clue]

IOM-London ret, 2 adults, 2 kids, 2 bags, out Monday back yesterday booked a fortnight ago. BA to LCY £850, BE to LGW £800 plus, Easyjet including speedy boarding £360. Guess who got the business?

Now I know Easyjet are in the startup phase for this route, and I would prefer to have used one of the others both from a loyalty stand point and the timing of the outbound flight, but that price difference is just too large to ignore.

And judging by the other 100+ people on each sector I wasn't alone in taking that view.

[Rivet Joint]

I get the impression the problem with BE is that they have spread themselves too thinly in an attempt to have a finger in every pie. Yes spreading your bets is a safer option in one way, i.e. the franchises etc but why set up a tiny base at EMA at the expense of a long standing and better airport in BHX? Other long established bases where they have monopolies like GTW, SOU etc are also suffering yes partly because of the recession but if it works and there is no competition build on it!

[AirLCY]

If IOM aren't careful they'll be left with just Easyjet, then their prices will be just like BA and Flybe!

[redED]

Other long established bases where they have monopolies like GTW


GTW? Holesov, Czech Republic? New one to me! ;)

[OltonPete]

Rivet Joint

I am a BHX local and at times have been frustrated at flybe's cautiousness but I certainly would not condemn them for taking on the ex BMI Baby flights at EMA.

The GLA, EDI, CDG and AMS had between 5000 and 9000 pax per month depending on the time of year and with the operating costs of the Q400 against the 735/3 they should be able to give them all a good go and hopefully without affecting BHX too much.

It seems they have secured an AF code-share on EMA- CDG and if they can do the same with KLM for AMS they will be well away. The only odd thing about that is from Sunday flybe will be in direct competition with KLM at BHX but a partner with AF on CDG.

However there are worrying trends at BHX with Hanover reduced to daily, Hamburg gone and re-timing of Stuttgart elinimating day trips but if they are not making money who can blame them.

Pete

[Rivet Joint]

LGW! :O.

Nope, sorry not buying that arguement when it comes to a secondary airport like EMA. Pax figures are just the razzle dazzle, what are the nuts and bolts i.e. yeild. WW went bust trying to make a success out EMA. Fair enough its worth a punt in a booming economy with a more economical plane but its not a booming economy and the smart money is on retrenching to your long standing and dependable bases. FFS! SOU and BHX have been there since the begining and BA handed BE a complete monopoly on the LGW domestic routes and they are diluting all that for a peripheral airport. :confused:

[egnxema]

The use of the term secondary and peripheral are subjective. If you live in the East Midlands then EMA is neither. If you live in any part of London other than Croydon then LGW is likely not your primary airport and compared to LHR and LCY, LGW is on the periphery of the Greater London area.

Just saying.

[kapton]

With respect AirLCY. IOM have nothing to be careful about. Flybe's problems on IOM are of their own making. A few years ago when Flybe acquired the BAConnect routes off the island they did to Euromanx what is happening to them now. Flybe sold seats 4 months in advance, at rock bottom prices. This meant that flybe enjoyed the benefit of free cash for 4 months, before putting a posterior on a seat. Euromanx saw its load factors plummet overnight, and eventually went bust in ignominious circumstances. There is more to the Euromanx saga, but that is for another thread.
Flybe did not have to invest anything, in The Isle of Man, other than training on aircraft types. The flightcrew, cabin crew, and engineers were all available locally, and more importantly, they were on similar salaries to those already afforded to Flybe staff. Initially, Flybe also enjoyed the support of The Isle of Man government, and the travelling public.
From the day Flybe gained their monopoly on IOM they proceeded to squander goodwill, and co-operation at an ever-increasing rate. Firstly the air fares became eye-wateringly expensive, which were backed up by excess baggage charges that would have been the pride of a mafia shaking down some unfortunate business. Also, they started to cancel flights at short notice, at a rate that everyone who used the airport on a regular basis couldn't fail to notice. The damage was done.
Flybe squandered a 24 carat opportunity to exploit their monopoly to the benefit of their business, and customers alike. Many regular customers at Ronaldsway understand that there is a premium to be paid for flying on and off the island. But Flybe's corporate attitude was, "if you don't like it, tough, you have nowhere else to go". Having flown with Flybe on many occasions with respect to my business I am in a position to be of the view that flybe's approach to their customers is one of disdain, and contempt. Only a lunatic would predict future developments in the air travel business. If Flybe, eventually succumb to the intense competition they are experienceing from EasyJet on The Isle of Man then they only have themselves to blame.

[EI-BUD]

A few years ago when Flybe acquired the BAConnect routes off the island they
did to Euromanx what is happening to them now


Totally agree with this; Flybe are good at flexing their muscle with smaller airlines e.g. Manx2, and weaker rivals, e.g. bmibaby, and Manx2 where possible e.g. Flybe brand getting onto BHD IOM few years ago to wipe Manx2 off the map. Equally the power that BE hold at some airport e.g. SOU and EXT, BHD was nearly headed the same way and it seems with the first 2 examples that BE will flex their muscle for dominance.

However, I suppose the same goes for all airlines, they weigh up the strenght of the competition and act accordingly.

EI-BUD

[Occams Razor]

So the BHX-AMS route due to start tomorrow, will it be run with a Dash or 175?

[BANDIT12]

EI-BUD said,

Flybe brand getting onto BHD IOM few years ago to wipe Manx2 off the map.

That move totally backfired on Flybe big style. It must have been the shortist lasting on the route network ever, did it even last a season?
There was no way a Saab prop with 2 crew and a cabin attendant was going to compete with a 19 seat Let with just a flightdeck crew. Outside peak timings you would be very lucky to get double figure pax on the Manx2 planes.

[OltonPete]

Occams Razor

It should start with the 175 as the first outbound on a Sunday is scheduled with the 175 every week. All other flights are on the Q400.

Seat map shows 88 seats on the first flight with 43 taken thus far (not sure if they block an off on the 175)

Rivet Joint I suppose only time will tell if it was a good move or not. BHX to EDI & GLA pax did fall slightly in the first month of the EMA flights (Sept) but these services have been trending downwards in general in recent times.

Pete

[JobsaGoodun]

but why set up a tiny base at EMA at the expense of a long standing and better airport in BHX?

If the question is why go into EMA? then I would say that the main reason is to prevent anyone else seizing an opportunity to come in, and begin tempting passengers away from Flybe's BHX routes. Far from this being a threat to Flybe's BHX operation, I see it as a way of bolstering this and making it more defendable. At least this way whether the preference for the passenger is EMA or BHX, Flybe gets the revenue!

The EMA routes taken on by Flybe were warm and well supported. It is impossible to know if Baby were using the EMA domestics to subsidise their other EMA services, or the other way around, but Flybe clearly believe that they have the right high frequency business model, with the right fleet to make routes like this work and given that Flybe dominate regional services outside of London within the UK, I'd have to say that they're probably right.

On the subject of BHDIOM, although this was a Flybe branded service, the decision to operate will have been Loganair's. I'm sure there would have been discussion with Flybe but it would have been Loganair that saw and opportunity and bore the operational costs if the route lost money. This is the case in most franchise operations. All Flybe licence or influence is the use of their brand - they would not make the operational decisions.

In respect of LGW, then I guess whatever will happen, will happen. Running 2 Q400 flights per day, one morning and one evening to provide decent business links will cost more than a once a day Airbus service proposed from EZY. As a result, flybe will have to charge more to cover their costs.

For the business user, if Flybe were to dip out then this could result in the end of day-trips to LGW, or much reduced time in London as it would be very likely that EZY would base their aircraft at LGW rather than IOM. Overnight stays would be required with all the associated costs. There will always be those who are happy to pay for the convenience and those who won't. It's impossible to say at this stage what the situation will be.

....but using ABZLGW as an example, this route is being closed by BE, a route that offered 3 flights per day. EZY are continuing their twice daily service but critically, they are not basing the aircraft in ABZ, choosing instead to keep thi in LGW. The first flight ex ABZ will no longer arrive LGW at 0830am, instead it will be 11am with EZY and rather than a choice of return flights to ABZ at 1630 and 1930 there is just one at 1800hrs. Sure the prices are cheaper and for many this is all they will be concerned about but ABZ business travellers can always jump on BA to LHR - in the IOM that choice isn't there.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see but EZY are no saviour and AirLCY raises a valid point that once they have the market, the costs will rise. Are Flybe the cheapest around....no they're not but they do provide local jobs to local residents in the IOM which EZY most likely will not.

[Rivet Joint]

All good points I must say and I would like to stress my opinion is just my own personal one.

I totally agree with the franchises, great way to get your company more exposure with less of the capital risk.

In terms of the smaller neighbouring bases I see the argument for getting in to prevent a competitor setting up on your doorstep but in my view if you have the better airport then just focus on creating that as an overwhelming force to be reckoned with. I am pretty sure many other airlines have created precedents where setting up a small base near by a larger one dilutes the overall yields of the larger base which means the overall operation i.e. ground service costs, number of based aircraft costs etc has to be reduced to fall in line. This inevitably leads to a large base becoming a medium one as the facilities a big base requires become unsustainable. Obviously this is just my opinion but BHX certainly seems to be reducing at an alarming rate?

Also I don't think BE have ever come across as a true low cost carrier, they are mainly about supply and demand.

[Serenity]

With Flybe Finland now in One World, will and when will Flybe UK join??

[CabinCrewe]

Must be a reason they have never been part of OW before, and as nothing has changed ie in terms of UK ownership stakes etc- I cant see it changing anytime soon. As much as I would like it.

[davidjohnson6]

Given the costs involved - both paying membership fees, and also changing back office systems, never mind things like lounges, why would Flybe UK want to join OneWorld when they don't fly to Heathrow ?

[Buster the Bear]

I bet Flybe wish they had the 'balls' to do what the Flyer operation has become at London City for BA. Probably too late now!

[redED]

With Flybe Finland now in One World, will and when will Flybe UK join??


Was under the impression they were only an affiliate members and only on flights they're operating for Finnair.

[VeroFlyer]

Had the "balls" to do what City Flyer have done at LCY? And what exactly do you mean by that and how does it relate to Flybe?!

[JobsaGoodun]

I bet Flybe wish they had the 'balls' to do what the Flyer operation has become at London City for BA.

Perhaps......but is this assuming that Cityflyer are making money at LCY?
Is there any evidence to suggest that they are?

[V_2]

Is there any evidence to suggest that they are? You mean evidence other than CityFlyer ordering 15 brand new aircraft, starting their own MPL cadet scheme and a 41% increase in PAX numbers last year despite the reccession? I predict they are doing ok.

When Flybe acquired BA Connect, did BA decide to hold onto LCY or Flybe refuse to take it (eg, not fitting with their overall buissiness model)?

[JobsaGoodun]

You mean evidence other than CityFlyer ordering 15 brand new aircraft, starting their own MPL cadet scheme and a 41% increase in PAX numbers last year despite the reccession?

Evidence of a growing business, but not necessarily a profitable one.

V_2 not having a dig and meant as some light-hearted banter. I think you could be very right, Flybe had already been at LCY and perhaps this business was a better fit for the BA model than that of Flybe, but I would certainly say that that the bun fight between Cityflyer and Cityjet will have been a costly one, made somewhat easier for Cityflyer to win with the Embraer coming into the fleet.

[vectisman]

I do hope Flybe are at least looking at the Manchester-Gatwick route. Could do well as a 3 or 4 times daily on an EMB 195. Timed for business, point to point and transfers to BA long haul would help along with a BA codeshare.
I know Flybe and Gatwick are not best pals at the moment but this could be a way forward.
V.

[vectisman]

I have followed the fortunes of Flybe for several years and have flown with them many times. Disappointing to see them retract somewhat recently. Personally I do not think they should give up too easily at Gatwick.
From London's second airport they need to focus more on using EMB 175 and EMB 195s. I am sure Newcastle would grow passenger numbers with improved frequency and product. Concerned they didn't fight more to keep Aberdeen traffic, but at least they seem to be willing to fight for their share of the LGW-BHD market. I know LGW charges do not encourage aircraft with less than 100 seats but the management there must realise that if they want more long haul full service carriers connections from elsewhere in the UK need to be maintained/improved. EasyJet and BA do not have the right size aircraft for some destinations within the UK.
Maybe I just want to see Flybe being more pro-active and acting nmore confidently as a large regional carrier!
V

[davidjohnson6]

Might I point out that the train from Euston to Manchester Piccadilly runs every 20 mins throughout the day and takes under 2h10. Stockport (close to Manchester airport) by train to Euston takes 1h55. From Euston to London Bridge takes 20 mins by tube and then another 30 mins by train to Gatwick.
Flying to Gatwick there is very little possibility to formally connect onto another flight.

Even if flying from Manchester to Sussex is a bit faster in terms of time, the train gives a less interrupted journey and a chance to do something productive.

Along with the increased landing charges, why would flyBE want to run a LGW-MAN route when they've recently cut LGW-ABZ ?

[Aero Mad]

davidjohnson6, have you seen the cost of a London-Manchester return or vice versa? Flybe would often beat it. Also,

Along with the increased landing charges, why would flyBE want to run a LGW-MAN route when they've recently cut LGW-ABZ ?

Perhaps because there wouldn't be the Big Orange sitting next to them competing? Bear in mind that the increased charges are particularly bad for the DH4 but not so much for the E95 due to the latter's greater size.

[VeroFlyer]

Tie up with VA in the pipeline perhaps?! :ok:

[Leg]

I know LGW charges do not encourage aircraft with less than 100 seats

It is actually 150 seats hence the tango lot get over the line & have gatters sewn up to the regions :{

[IOMspotter]

it looks like EZY are turning the heat up again on BE and there IOM routes and increasing their LGW IOM to daily next year. Im not sure the island politicians here understand the need for frequency on mainline routes and that just a 2x daily IOM LGW is no use to businessmen.:{

[insuindi]

Just saw 3 BE E195 parked up in BHX next to T1/international pier, i.e. where BE wouldn't normally have it's AC idling around. Are they parked for the winter (so far was only in the know about Dashs being parked)?

[iggle piggle]

They sometimes go there for a hose down I think.

[Tonyq]

Not difficult to do a quick ACARS check and see that all E195's except for one are in service today. The odd one is 'EE which is presumably under MX, as it hasn't flown since Friday.

[OltonPete]

insuindi

The answer is quite straightforward - It is just the winter schedule, which has all the based 195's on the ground after their first morning return until mid afternoon other than the one operating for Air France. The spare might have been there as well.

One 195 does CDG x 3 (on the ground from 10.15 - 12.20 & 15.50-17.20 appr)

Another BHX-BHD-BHX-GLA-BHX-BHD-BHX The first BHD arrives around 09.50 and the Glasgow departs 15.00

The other does 3 x EDI but the morning in is around 10.20 and it stays to 14.45.

Of course they can mix and match and this is only a guide but you should see three parked up around midday, one boarding for CDG and visiting 195's from EDI, GLA & BHD. So anything up to six or seven between 11.45-12.45. The two 175's should be in as well on long turnarounds for DUS and MXP.

Pete

[insuindi]

thanks for feedback re my E195 post. Probably a hose down today then for three of them given the unusual parking position.

[vectisman]

Does anyone know if Flybe have been looking at taking over the Manchester to Gatwick route from next summer?
Thanks.
V.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Not good.

Flybe (http://www.scotsman.com/business/management/flybe-warns-jobs-at-risk-after-posting-a-loss-1-2620994)

It warned there may be some impact on its workforce – consisting of 3,000 staff in the UK and up to 700 in Europe

That's after what is traditionally the strongest part of the year.

Doesn't bode well.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Obviously I'm not privy to internal guff now but would set up costs from Flybe Nordic account for the difference? If so why not say so in the media release?

Looks like another IFSD today too. :ouch:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I knew the 175 was a bit thirsty!

[JC25]

Obviously this is not good news, but none of it is actually new. Flybe have already forecast a full year loss of around £15m for 2012/2013 (the figure being announced today is for the first/traditionally strongest half of 2012/2013). The four aircraft being parked has also been known for some time.

It's also worth mentioning that the internal email I received today regarding the half year results makes no mention of job losses or jobs being at risk. Of course the impact on staff doesn't necessarily mean job losses, it could be just another year or two of no bloody pay rise.

Time will tell. Lets hope the government see sense and stop flogging domestic passengers with APD - this hits Flybe hard.

[BasilBush]

To be fair, it looks like last year's fuel costs were flattered as a result of FlyBe hedging at a rate well below the market. This year the hedged cost looks to be pretty much in line with the market price. So you can't really blame FlyBe management for the fact that they weren't as fortunate this year as last.

That's not to say that these aren't a pretty sick set of numbers. FlyBe are rapidly burning through the cash they raised in the IPO - when the share price was 295p compared with 50p ish now. They really have to turn things round quickly or they will be very short on cash in a year or two.

[Pizzaro]

Surely some of this fuel increase should have been passed on to the customers! Business sense?????? APD also needs sorting out, it's killing this industry!!!!

[Certa Cito]

I'm not so sure that it is either a mistake or a mismanagement.

Fuel costs are high, APD has been increased, there is a recession and with Europe not in a fine state, less people are prepared to pay much to travel. Also, there is then the small matter of £20m in card charges no longer being collected.

[Pizzaro]

If the airline can't cover fuel then it will cease to function!!! Where else can cost savings be made???? Easy and Ryanair were charging debit card fees till the beginning of Nov. Maybe Flybe were a little hasty in removing that charge??? How do other airlines cover the rise in fuel price??????

[Certa Cito]

The problem with fuel hedging is that you don't always get it right. If a company hedges one year and makes a win that's good. I imagine the broker will probably price it to get his money back next year! If you hedge at what you think is a good price and then the price falls you're stuffed. There's probably an element of the old crystal ball in there somewhere.

The £20m was a figure quoted in my ART course a couple of months back. It probably offset any yield and a considerable bit more too.

I accept that the Europe thing is getting tiresome now. But, because it has been going on since 2007 doesn't make it any less a fact.

Flybe need bums on seats and at a fair price too.

Hopefully the 1% increase in the economy recently announced will give a bit of consumer confidence and start to turn the corner :ok:

[JobsaGoodun]

Whilst I accept that any business must adapt and respond to the trading conditions it finds itself in, much of the time the degree to which you react is dictated by past knowledge and experience. The cyclical business nature of regional air travel has never experienced a downturn so deep, nor as long as the one we are currently experiencing so I think that flybe can be forgiven for not having taken an knee jerk reaction. I guess the underlying question any business needs to ask is at what point does the environment we are in now become the new norm?

I also think that what hasn't been highlighted as much here is that for the most part, when personal budgets are tight the one thing we seemingly don't give up is our week in the sun. The weekend city breaks and that extra visit to see friends and family and relatives get ditched in favour of preserving the summer holiday and this is perhaps why the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet are still recording strong figures. Perhaps Flybe have recognised this too as they have laid on more Med flights next year and added EXT and SOUBCN routes which may help them to take a bigger slice of the summer holiday pie.

I just hope its enough - but god help us on APD! When will the government listen - and don't get me started on the big airports who seemingly report every increasing operational profits.

[davidjohnson6]

What part of Flybe's business is taking the pain ? Just UK domestic ?
The fact that Flybe have cut their flying to France significantly for next summer as well as the reduction at Gatwick suggests that was also a cause of losses.

I know that fuel has gone up, but every single flight needs fuel. Thus it should be possible to apportion the increased cost of fuel to every single route, and then see which routes or bases are suffering the biggest losses

[Flightrider]

If you look back at previous accounts, they did have some quite good fuel hedges in place at about $800/tonne. It was pretty evident that when those hedges expired (and hedges can only delay the onset of a sustained rise in fuel prices rather than eliminate them) then Flybe's fuel price would go from a pretty good level up to the current market trends at around $1,000/tonne. That was always going to hurt, but the pointers about this were in the previous set of accounts.

I'd be more worried about the free cash level - dropping from £70m to £29m in one year is a concern.

[Drink Up Thee Cider]

The thing about fuel hedging - as Flightrider points out - is that every hedge runs out!

The challenge is then to move on to what the next best deal is and heads need examining if anyone honestly thinks that if Flybe (or any other airline, come to that) would do anything other than get the best deal available :ugh:. And looking at the Flybe hedging deals, they are virtually bang on the industry going rate.

I thought it was interesting that they went out of their way to put staff cost increases of 7.7% year on year (page 10 of report) down to one group of staff alone. And who's to blame? Yup - you got it, those nasty pilots.:mad:

[ETOPS]

I see Jim French is stepping down early next year. Wonder who will replace him? No - not you Lord Spandex, but maybe an outsider?

[BasilBush]

Agree with Flightrider that cashflow is FlyBe's main problem. This really ought not to be the case after all of the cash they raised in the IPO. But most of that is now gone. At the time of the August trading statement FlyBe said they should still achieve a positive operating cashflow this year. But based on this week's results it now looks as though cashflow will be a negative £15million or so for the full year. They can't sustain that for much longer. And even cutting the cost base would only achieve a breakeven position, which isn't really a comfortable position to be in when you have £600m worth of new aircraft on order. Something has to give, but I really don't know what.

[Facelookbovvered]

Flybe's market segment is the problem, I'm not sure that shuffling the Directors will have any positive impact, they provide in the main a good service with a fleet that's about as efficient as possible, but on many routes there are cheaper options from down the road and putting more Meds on won't help because their aircraft are not big enough to compete with an 319 or 738.

Lets face it the UK aviation industry is F**ked at this level, of the remaining independent airlines you've only got Eastern, BMIR and a few odd's and sods like Titan left, BMIR is fresh into new owners, but judging by Flybe's figures I think they'll have their work cut out unless less they can find some thin profitable routes, Eastern have always played a clever game in keeping away from routes that generate to many passengers, Titan have done well out of the misfortune of other airlines in covering tech issue's but their customer is less and less each year, with the likes of Globespan & baby gone to name a few, the PAN contract must be up in either 13 or 14 and the Royal mail might be a proper private company by then, so they need to keep their QC's but they are too small to cover the 148-189 segment (Easyjet/Jet2/BA) market and the 752 are too big.

I think Flybe have little choice but to try and tough it out and can't expect any help from either BA or the Government over APD, the country is also skint!

[DomyDom]

I must admit, I think its a bit strange that Flybe has abandoned its French routes from Manchester with the exception of Nantes, to concentrate on their UK domestic market. Especially when they say the UK domestic market is where they say they are being financially hit or making a loss. To me it has smacks of bmibaby's 'launching new niche flights from Manchester' - i.e. flying from Birmingham to Tenerrife(!). Very strange!

My view is that Flybe have a self declared hub at Manchester but need to launch direct routes to popular routes that MAN have recently they lost (e.g. Bordeaux, Lourdes, Montpellier). Ryanair seem to have done very well with this albiet to other airports. However knowing what company senior management teams are like I think that they would rather drive their company out of business than change strategy.

DomyDom

[davidjohnson6]

Bovvered - I think you're being slightly overly pessimistic. There is a gap between J41 and A319 on routes where flying less than daily just won't bring in the customers.
Flybe will forever remain a company driven by a need to look for new routes to develop, while its best performing routes are attacked by the larger players.

Yes, plenty of people do live in the UK's 8 or so largest urban centres, but people living in smaller cities like Exeter, Southampton, Norwich, Cardiff, Nottingham, etc... still need to get to other places while some of the larger cities need frequency on routes where a B737 would be overload.

I don't profess to know the ideal size or shape of Flybe for years to come, but unless Easyjet order a load of regional aircraft, the core business rationale is sound - there will always remain a need for an airline flying 50-100 seat aircraft around the UK regions.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I see Jim French is stepping down early next year. Wonder who will replace him? No - not you Lord Spandex, but maybe an outsider?

Don't worry, I wouldn't want it.

Stepping into the realms of Europe? Here there be monsters with orange, blue and yellow markings who will stomp all over your head should you enter their lair, leaving behind a gutted carcass.*

Why would anyone want that job?





*That's a prediction and not a wish should you take it a bit too personally.

[Facelookbovvered]

I think i'm just being realistic, i don't see a quick fix here, if they cut frequency to up load factors they make the product less attractive for the people who need/want a higher frequency.

I think airports have their part to play here to, for the short business trip the days of getting dropped at the airport door for a kiss & fly have largely gone from regional airports, yet you can still do it at LGW/LHR/MAN, but at LBA/EMA/BHX you'll need that elusive pound coin, no doubt done to cover the fact that their getting bugger all from the likes of FR in fee's but it just adds to the hassle and that's before you start the security side of things!

The train is so much easier for many these days, but we need the likes of Flybe in the UK market

[OltonPete]

Not surprising that the usual post Christmas/New Year cuts this winter look slightly deeper than the previous two years.

I have only checked the BHX services but some days DUS reduced by 50% (4-2), GLA five a day to seven on some days, Stuttgart just daily or less on four days of the week but the real surprise is what appears to be the suspension of Waterford between 6 January and 17 February.

With the EI Regional announcement this week I would have thought flybe would have added rather than reduce although I assume this decision was made before the EIR one.

It does not say suspension just full on the normal days of operation. Hopefully it is due to the booking engine being update in light of the EI Regional decision.

All in all the BHX January/February schedule looks realistic and not too bad unless there are further cuts to come!

Pete

[vectisman]

DJ6 said
'I think i'm just being realistic, I don't see a quick fix here, if they cut frequency to up load factors they make the product less attractive for the people who need/want a higher frequency.'

I do agree with this statement. Sometimes as well you have to be bold and take a few risks to succeed.

Flybe's EMB Jets (195 and 175) are well received aircraft. Use them more on the key routes, especially as more 175s are delivered. Reliable frequent services with good cabin service and competitive pricing is the key.

I also wouldn't give up on Gatwick just concentrate on routes that support the jets and compete!! (Newcastle, Manchester, Inverness, Newquay, Belfast City, Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey plus some decent French tourist destinations in the summer months). Being at a London airport is important for national and international exposure.I know that Guernsey may need an upgrade before jets are possible. Is this true of the 175 too?

I am not at all anti the Dash 8 (it has allowed services to continue and happen where they wouldn't have done so) but to compete with Easyjet, Ryanair and others you need a comparable product or ideally a better one!!

Finally if the business model looks as though it might not be working to best advantage do not be stubborn about amending it.

It is frustrating to see Flybe develop routes and then abandon some of them too quickly if competition hots up. Work to get a loyal customer base and this should be less of an issue.For example Aberdeen. BA started from LCY BE stops Gatwick but Easyjet didn't! Easyjet puts A319 on Isle of Man so you should put EMB 175 on Isle of Man etc...)

Apologies if I come across as an armchair airline boss!! I enjoy travelling on Flybe and do not want to lose it.

V.

[davidjohnson6]

Vectis - would you be kind enough to correct your quote attribution ?

[vectisman]

Whoops sorry! Speed reading again!!
Facelookbovvered (http://www.pprune.org/members/232196-facelookbovvered) said
'I think i'm just being realistic, i don't see a quick fix here, if they cut frequency to up load factors they make the product less attractive for the people who need/want a higher frequency.'

Apologies again
V.

[Aero Mad]

I know that Guernsey may need an upgrade before jets are possible. Is this true of the 175 too?

Guernsey is currently having an £80m runway and apron upgrade. However, the use of 175s was possible previously without any load restriction on any routes flown from the island by Flybe. Yet they chose to blame the island government following a snap decision in the light of the proposed Blurigny merger to tell Guernsey that it would be the first place anywhere on the network to have the 175s deployed...

100% Flybe spin I'm afraid. So when will GCI get its jets? We've been missing them since the last 146 departed.

[eastern wiseguy]

if they cut frequency to up load factors they make the product less attractive for the people who need/want a higher frequency.'

Sometimes you don't NEED to cut frequency to have an effect on how attractive the product is.

Just priced four of us going to a family funeral on Thursday(day return).

BFS-GLA-BFS with Easy...£320

BHD-GLA-BHD with FlyBe £910.

Guess who got the business?

[guern123]

Flybe must be loseing a lot of Business on the GCI - LGW through lack of Jet service. I flew mid week last week 7AM flight out and 19.50PM back (first and last one of the day) 78 seater Dash had 36 people on out bound and 33 on return. Dont get me wrong they offer a great service but for some reason people choose Aurigny being a local airline. I guess at least 50% of the people on board were travelling for business so wont want the free 20Kgs of luggage that Aurigny offer. The dash is quieter and quicker it can take off 15minutes behind the ATR and land just after or in some cases before it. I belive Flybe have a rough time with the states owned airline Aurigny continue to make a loss yet get bailed out time and time again by the Guernsey states. People need to wise up and realize it wont be too long before the Gatwick slots are so expensive Aurigny will either become too pricey or will leave Gatwick. Guernsey people need to start beliveing in Flybe a bit before they ditch the GCI - LGW route. From Flybe point get the E-175 on to this route ASAP and watch the numbers go up. People are all talk about i like to support the local Airline but as soon as they can say we travel by jet they will soon swap to Flybe!!

[Aero Mad]

Firstly just to say I'm not an Aurigny employee and am all for 175s on the GCI-LGW route but feel that a fair comparison is needed; perhaps we ought to set the record straight on a few matters?

The dash is quieter
Not true; both the ATR and the Q400 have an average cabin noise rating of 77-79dB. Some sources quote the latter as two decibels lower; this is not a perceivable difference to the human ear and you're splitting hairs here about an issue which even the most discriminating customer would not even notice.

and quicker
The Q400's economical cruise speed is indeed higher in theory, but have a look at what actually happens: BE909 left LGW at 11:59 today and arrived GCI at 12:49 - a 50min flight. GR603 left LGW at 15:58 and arrived at 16:42 - a 44min flight. Obviously some Q400 flights are faster, but the splitting hairs factor applies as above.

it wont be too long before the Gatwick slots are so expensive Aurigny will either become too pricey or will leave Gatwick
Aurigny and Flybe use aircraft in the same category as dictated by LGW charges/fees (<150 seats). So fee rises will affect both carriers equally? Given that it serves a community and is owned by a government which purchased it to protect that very route, Aurigny is in fact less likely to drop it. Flybe has significantly reduced its presence at LGW recently with a number of routes disappearing. It cannot simply absorb fee rises at Gatwick just because its operation there is larger; fares would go up and the same would apply.

People are all talk about i like to support the local Airline
If you are wondering why, have a look at the GCI-MAN route. Aurigny has operated a twice daily year-round service for some years; Flybe then applied to compete. It was awarded a license to operate similar year-round services but dropped them in winter, operating the route seasonally and cancelling flights out of the blue between January and March 2008. Cherry-picking is not good for customers and it is not good for Aurigny - the former ended up using the latter because Flybe's service could not be relied upon. Yes, it isn't a charity but if it isn't dependable then don't expect islanders to use it.

Sorry for what is a lengthy post but while I do believe in competition and private enterprise and am not a supporter of the Aurignyflot concept, I don't like to see issues portrayed in an unfair and slanted fashion. If Flybe puts jets on GCI-LGW then it will do very well and it certainly deserves to.

[JAR]

Still air flight times Q400 45 mins, E175 37 mins.

[insuindi]

just a side note: I'm not a sound expert, but don't forget db are measured on a logaritmic scale, so a 77db to 79db difference should be easily audible, especially as the threshold to sth. being annoyingly loud for some people starts in the high 70ies.

[guern123]

Aeromad - I dont wish to argue with you too much but i often travel on Flybe GCI to LGW and more often than not the Q-400 leaves after the ATR and get their 1st. Yes one flight today was quicker by ATR but that may be down to air congestion arriving into GCI at the time.
I do not have exact facts and figures on noise in the aircraft but one of my friends (best man at my wedding) works for Anglo Normany the Aurigny servicing arm and even he admits the ATR is louder espically the old AC.
As for the states buying the Airline to protect the LGW slots you obviously did not see Malcolm Harts comments in the Local press recently saying that rising Gatwick fees are the Airlines main threat. A threat is obvoiusly something that he feels can damage a Airline beyond repair. Yes the Q-400 is the same bracket as the ATR for fees at LGW but do Flybe not have more leverage on these fees being one of the main carriers at Gatwick.
On the Manchester front Flybe lower the amount of flights so as to run at a profit - as all companies should. A few weeks ago I being an Arsenal fan had tickets for Arsenal V Man Utd in Manchester on a Saturday lunch time. I looked 2 weeks before the match and all Friday night, Saturday morning outbound flights were full and with no return flights avaiable to the monday morning. With more and more flights operating from Manchester worldwide i belive there is enough capacity for 2 Airlines on GCI to MAN.
I have said before please look back through my previous posts competion is good for the public and keeps prices reasonable (I dont want to say low as if they go too low then airlines pull out of routes). I would much rather pay slightly more with Flybe to keep them on the route rather than my taxes paying for an airline that cant be run at a profit and keeps getting finacally proped up. I cant understand why if Aurigny lose money operating 5 flights a day GCI to LGW they decided that putting a 6th daily flight would make it more profitable. The 6th flight leaves 90min after the 1st and returns 90mins before the last.
Once again these are only my opinions and always try to see the other sides of an arguement

[BasilBush]

Interesting reference to FlyBe reducing the number of flights to match demand. Yes, they need to do this, but there is a suspicion amongst regular pax that domestic flights leaving within two or three hours of each other are combined at very short notice. No airline can do this very often without alienating its most valuable customers, and leading them to conclude that rail/driving is a more reliable alternative. Whatever the reason, FlyMaybe has become a commonly used title.

As for Gatwick's landing fees it is easy to blame the airport's new owners, GIP. But the real blame needs to be put at the door of successive governments, who have failed to grasp the nettle of runway capacity at both Heathrow and Gatwick. With a single runway at their disposal, GIP are inevitably going to try to discourage the use of smaller aircraft, especially those with lower than average seat factors.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Still air flight times Q400 45 mins, E175 37 mins.

At LRC for the 175?!

[Dave_t6]

I enjoyed reading this thread, lots of good points!

I feel like this new environment is the norm, APD and fuel prices unlikely to change significantly. Flybe's model was good and I feel it will still be successful in future years providing it can get through the tough times. An airline like Flybe is needed in the UK but perhaps with extra consolidation and codeshares. Perhaps operating all the jets under Flybe Europe and rebranding the q400s under a separate name operating a low cost service (something I believe the q4 can achieve)

In any case if this is the new environment innovation is needed. I hope the new CEO will provide that and not just cut costs to make the shareholders happy and leave Flybe in a poor long term position.

[flyland]

Wideroe Qty 1 Add to shopping cart. Checkout.

[BasilBush]

Unless SAS are prepared to give Wideroe away I can't see how FlyBe could finance its acquisition. FlyBe's cash position is not at all good, and could get quite serious by the end of the winter.

[Set 1013]

Flyland, great idea. One big problem though, No money left in the pot!:eek:

[Drink Up Thee Cider]

One big problem though, No money left in the pot!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif


Depends how badly the owners want shot of it. Remember, BA Connect involved a dowry and share offer. No actual cash went from Flybe to BA but an awful lot went the other way........

[flyland]

Yep. SAS might pay to get rid and perhaps Finnair would chip in. There is Dash 8 commonality. Didn't Flybe have 4 planes from Wideroe after the legs fell off?

[BasilBush]

And SAS aren't exactly flush with cash either. So not much chance of a dowry to get rid of Wideroe.

[Set 1013]

It goes with out question that the BAcon deal was great for the Flybe pocket. However I think the situation with Wideroe is different. SAS want to offload at a cost to generte cash for their own pocket! They won't be giving away money to a company to take it off their hands. I don't think we have the money for that. Famous last words of course.

[redED]

There's plenty of cash in the hidden Jersey pot i'm sure!

[Rivet Joint]

That's funny, I could have sworn I read a number of articles stating that Wideroe want to buy SAS!

I can see your logic in "suggesting" it with the fleet commonality and SAS's lack of funds but as other posters have stated BE don't have any money themselves! Plus if you had done the research like I have above it appears that Wideroe are clearly a profitable entity so likely the last thing they would sell!

[davidjohnson6]

BA Conn lost money while the parent company was at least managing to get by. BA parent had a choice to either close the company down along woth all the liabilities that entailed, or sell it for a nominal amount with a dowry for the buyer as a sweetener.

SAS the parent is in deep trouble and badly needs cash. Wideroe the subsidiary makes money.

Wideroe may well be sold but it will not be given away with a dowry. If Flybe want Wideroes they will have to pay either in cash or in some form of shares. Unless Flybe can find a bank willing to back them in a big way, Flybe will struggle to buy Wideroe in cash.

[flyland]

SAS to sell Wideroe and ground-handling under last-ditch plan (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/sas-to-sell-wideroe-and-ground-handling-under-last-ditch-plan-378828/)

Some more research:)

[airhumberside]

This is what the SAS CEO said on a conference call according to ATW Online regarding Wideroes

"Gustafson declined to comment on how or when WF will be sold, saying only that the transaction will give SK more independence from its external creditors. “It is not our first choice or desire to sell Wideroe, but when you have tough choices, you have to take tough decisions. It is a very well run company and I am sure it will generate a lot of interest.”"

[Certa Cito]

Money or no money?

Flybe takes interest in Wideroe sale - Aftenposten | Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/11/14/uk-flybe-norway-wideroe-idUKBRE8AD0CP20121114)

[TRY2FLY]

I see there was Dash at Sumburgh (Shetland) today. New charter route perhaps

[cornishsimon]

When are the summer routes normally announced ?

So far I see it's only MAN, LGW and GLA ex NQY for summer 13, surely there is more to come ?


cs

[Leg]

We have picked up some charter work moving oilies to Shetland in the light of the angry palmtrees being grounded.

Anyone who thinks we will spend half a billion bucks buying a little scandie regional outfit is well and truly in cloud cuckoo land :ugh: (Not that it is worth anywhere near that but the scandies as usual over price everything)

[Aero Mad]

half a billion bucks buying a little scandie regional outfit

Leg, you'll note that the $400m figure was for all assets (including aircraft engines, land etc.) - so Widerøe's sale price will be significantly lower.

Incidentally, your 'little scandie regional outfit' in the form of Flybe Nordic is even smaller so don't berate them too hard! :ooh: Widerøe's revenue is nearly £350m annually - nearly half that of the entire Flybe Group. So, given Flybe Nordic's interests I really wouldn't be surprised if they find the cash somewhere.

[davidjohnson6]

To add a sense of scale, with the Flybe share price at 55 pence, the market capitalisation of Flybe (ie the value of the company as a whole, including all cash in the bank and any aircraft, spares or land that Flybe may own) is £41m - yes 41 million pounds.

[TRY2FLY]

This says they will be taking a look at it

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1352893686.html#.UKTUynRcx9I

[JC25]

davidjohnson6 " To add a sense of scale, with the Flybe share price at 55 pence, the market capitalisation of Flybe (ie the value of the company as a whole, including all cash in the bank and any aircraft, spares or land that Flybe may own) is £41m - yes 41 million pounds."

I'm not sure how you arrived at this figure and it may indeed be correct. But did you include in this calculation that only about a third (possibly less if I remember correctly) of the entire company shares were floated/traded in the stock market. If you've not considered that's then your figure will be considerably underestimating Flybe's actual value.

[JAR]

25% sold, 15% to BA and 9% to employees. Balance of 51% retained.

[davidjohnson6]

There are 75.2 million shares in issue. Of this 75.2m, Rosedale own 36m shares, while IAG own 10.9m shares.
The shares currently trade around 55.75 pence (up slightly on yesterday)

75.2 x 0.5575 = 41.9 million pounds
This includes shares owned by Rosedale, IAG, Quantum, James French, Richard Griffiths and anyone else.

Thus the value of Flybe as a company is £41.9 million
The value of the shares sold at the time of the flotation is now about £10 million

Repeated profit warnings and losses have not been kind to the share price.
On 13 Dec 2010 the shares traded at 343 pence - so have fallen by almost 84% in the last 2 years.

[Leg]

You are still not listening, the shares owned by whoever are just a small part of the ownership of the company, the lions share is still owned by the trust. Largest private owned airline in the world and all that. :=

Edited for typo only.

[davidjohnson6]

Leg - I refer you to page 48 of the 2011 / 2012 annual report.
The Walker Trust holds its shares via Rosedale Aviation Holdings Ltd.
The annual report states that the company's share capital is made up of 75.2 million shares - ie these are the sole shares that give ownership of Flybe.
The same page states that Rosedale owns 48.1% of the company or 36,146,250 shares - so yes, by far the largest shareholder. At a current price of 55.75 pence per share, the Walker trust's stake in Flybe is worth 36,146,250 x 0.5575 = £20,151,534.38 or approx £20.2 million pounds.

There is no magic or other class of shares used for ownership as per the annual report. Flybe as a company in its entirety is worth £41.5 million pounds. It may be large in terms of fleet, number of employess or flights operated but it is not a particularly valuable company.

[hampshireandy]

Maybe it will be Wideroe that takes over Flybe then!

[globetrotter79]

davidjohnson6 - some interesting figures..

Anyone seen a recent BA annual report to see how much they value their stake in flyBe to compare with the Walker Trust/Rosedale figure?

[Cyrano]

BA's 2011 Annual Report (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTM1MjM0fENoaWxkSUQ9LTF8VHlwZ T0z&t=1) says (Note 9, p. 33) that the value of the flyBE stake was written down by £16m in 2011 (on the back of a £15m writedown in Apr-Dec 2010).

Note 18 (p. 44) suggests that the stake was valued at £24m as of 31 Dec 2011 (based on share price), which would have put flyBE's total market cap then at about £160m (BA's holding is 14.8%). Hasn't really been a stellar investment for BA (or for other shareholders).

[pottwiddler]

Hasn't really been a stellar investment for BA (or for other shareholders). Buying a piece of another airline is not solely about investment but can be for 'influence' in terms of route or advice (like the Dragons) BA buying a piece of FlyBe could have been to act as a feeder to BA Long Haul flights.

Just saying.

[EI-BUD]

Hasn't really been a stellar investment for BA


On the face of it I guess it hasnt been, but by BA's own admission their commuter, BA Connect or regional operation (similar to BE's) was losing money so if you look at it in terms of losses avoided, maybe its a different matter.

As much as I am not Flybe fan in any way, they certainly are doing what they can to diversify or as Jim French remarked, spread their risk, by doing ops for Brussels Airlines, the work with Finnair and their newly aquired operation in Scandinavia. It is early days for these ventures and with some luck will delivery for them in due course.

[JC25]

BA's stake wasn't so much an investment, more payment for BA Connect. When Flybe acquired BA Connect they did not pay anything for it, they in fact received assets and cash and in return BA got a 15% stake in the new enlarged Flybe.

[manx crab]

IAG(BA) shares have hardly been a stellar investment either

[VeroFlyer]

From an article in the sunday Times today...interesting!

AIRLINES: Pilotless Flybe is easy prey
The Sunday Times (Danny Fortson) writes that Flybe could be a takeover target as it battles losses and the departure of chief executive Jim French. There is a view that it is now so cheap that a larger predator such as Aer Lingus could buy it as its regional network of flights could provide useful feed traffic for a bigger company. Flybe could also attract a rival regional operator that wants to consolidate operations. Either way, without a new chief executive in place, now may be the perfect time to make a move.

[davidjohnson6]

Yes the shares are at a low, valuing Flybe in its entirety (not just what was listed on the stock market) at about 36 million pounds. Aer Lingus by contrast is worth about 577m euros or 465m pounds. At an initial glance, it might be a cheap way to buy up Flybe in theory.

Nothing however is going to happen unless the Walker Trust agree - the trust's shareholding is just too large for any hostile corporate raider to achieve anything without the trust's blessing.

[Devonair]

I'm flying from SYD to EXT (EK SYD-DXB-MAN and then BE to EXT) in January, booked a single ticket with Expedia for the entire journey - anyone know if my bags go through to EXT or will I need to re check in MAN? Loving the fact I don't have to fly through London also :O

[JimNich]

Devonair

One ticket, through checked, your bags will go through. However, baggage handling such as it is (tossing the baggage, baggage hurling, the baggage put, baggage dodgems, hide the baggage etc, all favourite pastimes at Manchester) may end up in you bags being slightly delayed. Much will depend on your connection whether your bags make it across from T2 in time.

I'm not helping am I? :uhoh:

[Devonair]

JimNich thanks for your wise words of advice,

[pwalhx]

As a regular user of Manchester (up to 50 flights a year) never had a baggage problem there yet (tempts fate I know) so I believe the comments above to be somewahta curious.

[RVF750]

Flybe connecting flights usually have no issues as the new Hub system works very well. it's the interlining from other carriers that can be a problem as they luggage has to come into T3's system and can miss the flights if too late.

Generally, if you can make it from another terminal to T3, then so should the bag.

[NickBarnes]

when did flybe announce they will be flying to Den Helder in The Netherlands from Norwich and Manchester?

[NickBarnes]

oh yeh just saw it was announced last week on the 13th by loganair

[mart901]

Its an extension of Manchester-Norwich route, aimed at offshore businesses. Good for Norwich to have another euro route.

[BOHEuropean]

Big announcement next month? Anyone heard anything...

[mart901]

Waterford?

[rutankrd]

No but for speculation likely to involve FlyBe Nordic operations - Perhaps purchase of the Widerøe operation from SAS ?

[JC25]

Quite possible it could be another significant wet lease contract.

I'd be surprised if it was a significant expansion of Flybe UK scheduled flights as there is not much money in te pot to support new routes. If anything, think we'll see cuts (perhaps to released aircraft for more wet lease work).

Purely speculating however...

[EI-BUD]

If it is Big Annoucement as in a positive one, I would bet it is increase in its wet lease arrangements ala Brussels Airlines. Cant see in the current state, them aquiring another carrier.

They seem to be getting it on all sides at LGW e.g. EZY on routes like IOM, and EI putting up stiff competition on Belfast City route. Could LGW be about to get the axe in the guise of charges are too high, and all but JER and GCI get axed?

Is Belfast City going to get linked with STN if MOLs visits to BHD in the last 2 consecutive Friday dont bear fruit?

My money is on the above, that's if there is in fact an annoucement...

[EI-BUD]

Flight details


Flight:BA4086 Operated by equatorial Congo Airline For Flybe Departing from Donegal
Tue 12 February 2013, 07:55 Arriving at Dublin
Tue 12 February 2013, 08:50Number of stops:0 Flying duration:0hrs 55mins Aircraft type:SAAB SF 340 turbo prop Selling class:L




There is an interest snapshot from a BA search for flights from Donegal to London!

It refers to Equatorial Congo airlines instead of Loganair!!

EI-BUD

[Maverick8701]

EI-BUD very interesting so BA contract in Flybe who sub contract to Equatorial Congo. See how it goes then put a q400 on if goes well? Although I see ECA have no Saabs surely they wouldn't lease in aswell got to be Loganair?

Any chance potential announcement is new CEO? With French stepping down?

[EI-BUD]

Hey Maverick8701; I think it is a mistake, that was meant to be my point!

On a separate Flybe note, I see that tomorrow BHD LGW down to three but more significantly its last flight ex BHD is at 1425, and ex LGW at 1620, not very business orientated...the other days past tomorrow have the later evening flights as normal.. surprising that a Monday with no facility for business man who wants to fly past 5pm...!

[davidjohnson6]

EI-BUD - rather unfortunate that both Loganair and Equatorial Congo Airlines seem to claim IATA airline code LC....

I though airlines codes were meant to refer to only 1 airline at any one time, with possible recycling after an airline ceases operations, but it seems my assumption is wrong

[FRatSTN]

They seem to be getting it on all sides at LGW e.g. EZY on routes like IOM, and EI putting up stiff competition on Belfast City route. Could LGW be about to get the axe in the guise of charges are too high, and all but JER and GCI get axed?

Is Belfast City going to get linked with STN if MOLs visits to BHD in the last 2 consecutive Friday dont bear fruit?

I think it would work for FlyBe if they did go to Stansted. There's only two problems I can see why they don't already go there:
- There is a large Ryanair presence at Stansted
- Gatwick is much larger and offers more options for onward travel.

They have always been the reasons I've heard why BE have never served STN however, neither are really an issue nowadays. Stansted has more "scheduled European destinations than any other airport in the world" offering a better range of destinations for short-haul onward travel. Also, as FlyBe mainly flies domestic routes, Ryanair is not going to be of much competition to them, since they have very little intention to add UK domestic routes due to APD (hence the reason they closed STN-PIK). FlyBe now have increased competition at Gatwick with EasyJet, BA and Aer Lingus for which they have an unfair advantage as Gatwick charge more for the regional sized aircraft that FlyBe use.

I think that the new owner of Stansted may target FlyBe and I think that FlyBe will show more interest once it's out of BAA's hands. If MAG gets Stansted, I think it will be increasingly likely for FlyBe to make a move.

[mart901]

STN-BHD would be great, it would shave 30 mins from my journeys! It would also remove EZY's current monopoly on Belfast to north London airports. LTN-BHD??

[vectisman]

This has been a fairly quiet thread in recent weeks.
I have been wondering recently how Easyjet can run double daily on A319 to Belfast from Newcastle whilst Flybe operate twice daily only on some days on the Dash 8. Are Flybe and Easyjet targeting different markets? Likewise on some other uk domestic routes where competition is less. I know the market is tough but in as I have said before less demand may follow frequency cuts rather than the otherway around!
For example I will tend to fly to Newcastle from LHR than Southampton these days even though I live very close to Southampton because the timings suit me. Also at the fares at BA are competitive even after allowing for petrol money and car parking at Terminal 5. A couple of years back with 4 flights a day from Southampton Flybe nearly always got the business.
Personally although I know the Dash 8s have allowed Flybe to expand in recent years, I think the quicker they expand the E175 fleet the better. Then they can compete more effectively. I have been disappointed to see them retreat rather than fight their corner on several routes during the past year or so.

V.

[Cloud1]

Just wanted to say bravo to the BE workers in the skies, on the ground and in the Ops department for their efforts over the last 48 hours. Even this evening as weather grounds aircraft in CDG with a large number of cancellations, Flybe are delaying departures and getting people back home in the UK. It may be later than they wanted, but at least its not a night in the airport - which with so many cancellations and limited hotel space would have the end result.

Too many people complain about this company. They do not always get it right and no doubt passengers will still moan about the delays over the last few days, but when considering what could have happened I think the wider BE team have pulled out all the stops to minimise disruption as much as they can.

[EI-BUD]

I know the market is tough but in as I have said before less demand may
follow frequency cuts rather than the otherway around!


Hi Vectisman,

Ref to easyJet running double daily on BFS NCL; over the summer the numbers were well up on the previous year same months, and 320s on many of the flights, easyJet do well on this flight. I would suspect that the less price conscious traveller may choose BE, however EZY have the earliest departure from NCL each morning so if you want to be in Belfast earlier, you will choose EZY, so it may be that the demand is going in that direction??

However, in stark contrast is Jet2's BFS LBA with the frequencies down and hence the numbers, BE seems to be fairing much better on LBA...

EI-BUD

[vectisman]

Thanks EI-BUD for your response.
So surely Flybe should say right lets compete properly on Newcastle-Belfast.
Reliable double daily new E175 with competitive fares. Sorry if I sound like an armchair CEO just frustrated! Well done Easyjet for making a go of it though.

V.

[Zag23]

For flybe to succeed at stansted they need long haul airlines to move in as well, so they can feed passengers on to the long haul. The flip side of this is, for any long haul to move into stansted, they would want some one like flybe to feed them.

[mart901]

Sadly. I think flybe retreating in some areas is more about profit protection than anything. They don't have pockets like easyjet. I think though going onto the right routes they could make a good go of STN. BHD, IOM, WAT,JER, perhaps some regional France, maybe even CDG to offer connections.

[mikkie4]

would flybe be willing to return to SEN?

[Barling Magna]

Not while Easyjet is the dominant user, I would think.

[FRatSTN]

For flybe to succeed at stansted they need long haul airlines to move in as well, so they can feed passengers on to the long haul. The flip side of this is, for any long haul to move into stansted, they would want some one like flybe to feed them.

I'm not sure that they do. With the exception really of LGW and MAN and to an extend BHX and GLA, most FlyBe airports in the UK are smaller regional airports with very few if any long haul connections. Some of BE's biggest bases like BHD, EXT and SOU for example are virtually 100% FlyBe airports. Ryanair used to fly STN-BHD up to four times a day so I'm sure BE could fill a few Dash 8's or Embraer aircraft a day.

Stansted has more scheduled European destinations than any other airport in the world. There are many destinations across Europe where their only direct flights to the UK are from Stansted airport. Lets take this for an example:

Someone from Northern Ireland wants to get to one of those less heard of Ryanair destinations eg. Carcassonne, Lublin, Pescara... the list is huge of airports soley or mostly served from Stansted in the UK. Take Carcassonne for example. I bet that someone wanting to go there from Northern Ireland maybe for VFR (visiting friends & relatives) or for lesiure purposes would find it buch better to fly to Stansted, then book another flight to direct to Carcassonne rather than fly direct from Belfast to somewhere like Nice and then have to travel a long way at the foriegn end.

I know that sounds quite a niche market, but because the list of short-haul destinations that are unique or mostly served from Stansted is so huge, it soon adds up and to be fair, most of their customers are going to be flying to go to London and Stansted is a good gateway for them. And, FlyBe, which is now almost starting to suffer from the competition at Gatwick by BA, EI and EZY primarily, could bring a a range of domestic services that people of North and East London, East Anglia and into the Midlands would highly appreciate not to mention all of the people living near the new destinations that would be bought to Stansted who would in a lot of cases have more choice of London airports to fly to.

[anothertyke]

I was thinking the same about flybe at Manchester. Given that Manchester is a second level hub ie served by spokes by foreign airlines from main hub it really needs a set up where flybe as the domestic feed operator is a member of several alliances and the long haul/short haul scheduling really gets sorted out.

[ballyctid]

Cloud1 wrote...

Just wanted to say bravo to the BE workers in the skies, on the ground and in the Ops department for their efforts over the last 48 hours. Even this evening as weather grounds aircraft in CDG with a large number of cancellations, Flybe are delaying departures and getting people back home in the UK. It may be later than they wanted, but at least its not a night in the airport - which with so many cancellations and limited hotel space would have the end result.

Too many people complain about this company. They do not always get it right and no doubt passengers will still moan about the delays over the last few days, but when considering what could have happened I think the wider BE team have pulled out all the stops to minimise disruption as much as they can.

"Helping getting PAX back to the UK!"

You're having a laugh, I was, and still am, in Milan Malpensa, I was due to fly back last Friday on the BE7114 to BHX. I was given a heads up 3 hours before the "official" cancellation of the flight that it wouldn't be operating.

I went to the BA/FlyBe desk and asked to change to the MAN flight so I could at least get somewhere near home for the weekend, a phone call to "FlyBe" by the local staff and they refused to change me until the flight was officially cancelled.

By the time that happened the MAN flight had closed leaving me stranded for the weekend, what a shambolic operation they are, and I do have first hand knowledge of them as I used to work for them!

[FL370 Officeboy]

Cloud1 wrote...

Just wanted to say bravo to the BE workers in the skies, on the ground and in the Ops department for their efforts over the last 48 hours. Even this evening as weather grounds aircraft in CDG with a large number of cancellations, Flybe are delaying departures and getting people back home in the UK. It may be later than they wanted, but at least its not a night in the airport - which with so many cancellations and limited hotel space would have the end result.

Too many people complain about this company. They do not always get it right and no doubt passengers will still moan about the delays over the last few days, but when considering what could have happened I think the wider BE team have pulled out all the stops to minimise disruption as much as they can.

"Helping getting PAX back to the UK!"

You're having a laugh, I was, and still am, in Milan Malpensa, I was due to fly back last Friday on the BE7114 to BHX. I was given a heads up 3 hours before the "official" cancellation of the flight that it wouldn't be operating.

I went to the BA/FlyBe desk and asked to change to the MAN flight so I could at least get somewhere near home for the weekend, a phone call to "FlyBe" by the local staff and they refused to change me until the flight was officially cancelled.

By the time that happened the MAN flight had closed leaving me stranded for the weekend, what a shambolic operation they are, and I do have first hand knowledge of them as I used to work for them!

Why did you not return to the UK on the MXP-MAN flight on Saturday or the MXP-BHX flight on Sunday?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Bally, haven't you heard? Nobody in Flybe has got the big picture, despite everyone claiming to!

[JC25]

All this recent discussion proves that you can't please everyone all of the time. For every bad comment someone has, someone else is likely to have a happy tale to tell.

Unfortunately these days, it's the people with a problem or a complaint who are most likely to talk about it so it was nice to read about someone's positive experience for once.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Cloud1, only that one persons perspective is different to another. No good blowing Flybe's trumpet when there're still people stuck where they shouldn't be, just rubs salt in the wounds doesn't it. Although I'm sure the effort was immense.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

...for their efforts over the last 48 hours. Even this evening as weather grounds aircraft in CDG

Let's not try to confuse things. Yes you mentioned CDG and the 48 hours prior. Now that covers the time that ballydoodah was supposed to leave MXP. I think you rubbed salt in his wounds, hence his reaction.

Of course there's nothing wrong with praise, if you think praise is really necessary for doing what you're supposed to do anyway, but there is a time and a place. I would suggest in public at a time when many people are still stuck where they don't want to be isn't the best time to be blowing smoke up Flybe's arse, or your own. Why don't you try Flyingbe where Ops and flight deck hang out if you want your message to get through to the intended recipients instead of trying to make Flybe look better to the general public.

I find it hard to accept that none of these were offered.

You think maybe they were full?

[ballyctid]

Why am I still in Milan? My plan was to come back today (Tuesday) to complete my work, there was no point whatsoever in coming back to MAN on Saturday or BHX on Sunday when I needed to be back here, I brought forward the meetings to Monday and if "FlymayBe" decide to come and get me today all well and good.

The point of my post was why didn't they put me on the MAN flight when I requested this at 1pm on Friday, that way I wouldn't have missed a whole weekend with my family and several commitments I had over that weekend?

And yes I did work for them, not by choice but I was ex BACON and forced to work for them, I pulled the plug as soon as I could though and have never look back.

[JimNich]

To re-inforce, I agree, Flybe is far from perfect, but many people have been working damn hard over the last few days to try as best they can to over come the difficulties experienced with the baddish weather. The truth is, you can run perfectly on time and still have the punters coming up the steps and giving the cabin crew hell because some portion of there trip hasn't gone to plan. We (they) get it on a daily basis. On the upside, the huge majority are just fine and have enough common decency to appreciate the effort.

As for Stansted, my own feeling is that not enough people really want to go there just now (give MAG a couple of years to settle in and it might be a different story). If Ryanair couldn't make it work selling seats for a pound then Flybe won't selling seats for a hundred (which is basically what it cost twenty years ago to fly to London before lossleading LoCo came in).

Well, off to do another four sectors in the snow, the woolly hat is most definitely on today. :ok:

[Cloud1]

Lets just agree to disagree shall we. Every single thing that is written on here is pulled to shreads its a complete joke. What is 'flyingbe'?

[JC25]

Ballyctid,

I appreciate that you are frustrated, but as I understand it, you had a bit of information from an insider that it was likely that the flight from MXP to BHX would be cancelled? Based on this you asked to transfer to the MAN, am I correct?

I totally understand your thought process, seems quite logical. However, think about it another way.

Firstly, as far as the staff working the desk in MXP were concerned, the flight to BHX was still scheduled and planned to operate, therefore, no free transfer. They spoke to someone at Flybe (most likely someone in ground services department) who also see that the flight was currently still scheduled, so they do not agree to a free transfer. Until the flight is cancelled, nothing can happen - ground services folk play no part in deciding which flights get cancelled, they react to decisions made by flight ops, which I am sure you understand.

Now that could suggest that flight ops could have been more decisive and cancelled the flight earlier to facilitate alternative plans, however, cancelling a flight early when there is even a small chance you can launch it later in the day would be a bit foolish. You were not the only passenger on the flight and quite rightly, flight ops would have been aiming to get everyone where they want to be of at all possible. A balance has to be struck. Also worth noting that a major reason that the flight wasn't cancelled much earlier could have been due to the over optimistic BHX airport predications of when runway would be up and running (BHX has been snow closed a number of times over the last week).

Also worth remembering that on a day with delays and cancellations, the staff will have heard all sorts of rants from passengers. You turning up claiming that you've heard that the BHX flight will or may be cancelled (if indeed you mentioned it to the staff) is unlikely to make any diffence. Ground services and ticket desk staff quite rightly do not make decisions based on the hunches of passengers. They can only work with the information that they have been given.

You could of course have paid for the transfer and then attempted to argue that you were due a refund for the fee later after the BHX was cancelled. Although I suspenct that would have been fruitless given that you'd changed your flight before the cancellation, but that would have been a very different argument.

Basically, as unfortunate as it may have been for you, I don't really see what realistically could have happened differently. You would have been put up in a hotel and offered a the next available flight.

Despite what you might think, Flybe (or rather the people at Flybe) do not set out to ruin peoples plans... they generally work damn hard and do their best to get as many people where they want to be as quickly as possible, all for little or no thanks. But regardless of what I have said, you were inconvenienced and will likely not change your mind. But given that you work or have worked in aviation before, I'm surprised that all this is not really obvious to you.

And btw I don't work in ground services or flight ops so I'm not defending my own position here :=

[FL370 Officeboy]

So when you say...

You're having a laugh, I was, and still am, in Milan Malpensa, I was due to fly back last Friday on the BE7114 to BHX.

it is fair to say that instead of taking the next available return to the UK with the rest of the passengers would have done you decided to stay in MXP for your own reasons. So the fact that you are still in MXP on Monday is because you chose to be so. You make it sound like the reason you are STILL in MXP is because the airline haven't repatriated you yet and have left you in MXP, which isn't really the case is it? What airlines do you think would allow you to change your ticket onto another route (presuming non flexi fare) when your flight hadn't at that point been cancelled?

Don't forget the airline will have had passengers in BHX wanting to get OUT to MXP too so they really will have tried to operate the flight and would have only cancelled it when it was 100% certain they could not do so.

[hampshireandy]

Maybe customers could put up with being shafted by Flybe occasionally IF they were paying Ryanair or Easyjet prices. Most customers on Flybe are paying full service prices and receiving LCC service when things go pear shaped. I can imagine very few tears being shed if this shoddy cowboy outfit go the way of several other airlines, most of which were better run than Flymaybe.

[Maverick8701]

Bit harsh??

Assuming you live where your name says. Should your wish come true your local airport would be right in the you know what. Seeing as though the vast amount of flights departing SOU are BE. They would be left with very little. Impacting not only local Flybe jobs but also local airport jobs.......not an issue I guess in this booming economy.

There has been a very similar tone on the IOM thread and they too need to be careful what they wish for. Flybe have tried all weekend to get passengers where they need to be but various others haven't even tried. Living on an island like I do really makes you appreciate how important these routes and indeed airlines are.

[Tinwald]

'Living on an island like I do really makes you appreciate how important these routes and indeed airlines are.'.....they are Fella, especially if your working for the monopoly airline, yessir.

[hampshireandy]

Maverick, if Flybe went belly up then im sure BAA would find someone else to fill the slots at SOU. Im sure Easyjet amongst others would be glad of a foothold at Flybe International Airport, oops, sorry i meant SOU.

[GCILover]

Ballyctid.....may I add something here. I used to work for Flybe and did so at the time of the bacon takeover. You weren't forced to work for them, you had a choice. You could have left.

Bacon crew especially MAN staff were a joke. Bulk crews purposely calling in sick endless amount of times meaning there was no option but to cancel multiple flights, nearly always the same route time and time again.

Bacon was a no brainer losing money left, right and centre. Flybe were good enough to keep bacon crew employed. Not something that should be slated in this modern day.

[Maverick8701]

Fair point Tinwald! Left wide open for that one.

Would like to think I had a similar opinion before working for my current employer.

[JC25]

Please don't turn this into a Flybe vs Bacon rant... It's all been said before and it's been almost 6 years.

I'm ex-Bacon/citiexpress and am still with Flybe and quite franky it amazes me that a small number of people still feel the need go on about how good or bad it was before the take over. Most of what is said bares little resemblance to what actually happened and is loaded with emotion for some odd reason.

Discussing passengers experience of disruption at Flybe shouldn't descend into a old Flybe vs Bacon whinge.

[JobsaGoodun]

Maverick, if Flybe went belly up then im sure BAA would find someone else to fill the slots at SOU. Im sure Easyjet amongst others would be glad of a foothold at Flybe International Airport, oops, sorry i meant SOU.

I may be wrong (and very happy to be corrected) but I'm pretty sure that there are only 3 or 4 stands at SOU that can house aircraft the size of the A319 at the same time. A large number of stands may be out of use due to the proximity of the stands to the runway. Oh and of course, they'd probably be performance restricted of the short runway, and they'd cut the frequencies drastically due to the increase in capacity.

I'm not sure that SOU would be any better off...ask IOM how reliable EZY are given that they've cancelled their sole LGWIOM rotation each day for the last 3 days running....

[adfly]

An A319 would be ok performance-wise from SOU - fairly similar to the E195's in fact but the way the stands are means it can only handle 2 at one time (three would be possible with re-marked stands) and JobsaGoodun is right about the distance between the stands and runway, tails have to the below 9m high on the East apron. Not sure if EZY would want to dilute some of their own Gatwick traffic too much though if Flybe did go belly up. Actually a little off-topic but it would be very interesting to see who would replace Flybe at SOU if such a thing did happen.

[Maverick8701]

Ryanair Offers to Sell Part of Aer Lingus

Ryanair Holdings PLC (RYA.DB, RYAAY) has offered to sell off part of Aer Lingus Group PLC's (EIL1.DB) business to a regional U.K. airline in a bid to secure clearance from European Union regulators for its merger bid, a person familiar with the negotiations said Tuesday. In its latest package of concessions, Ryanair has put Flybe Group PLC (FLYB.LN) forward as an upfront buyer for around half of the Aer Lingus business, the person said. Flybe would take over 43 of the Irish carrier's routes, while British Airways, a unit of International Airlines Group PLC (IAG), would operate fewer routes than originally foreseen, but would hold onto the three lucrative London Heathrow to Dublin routes. BA would then be able to retain the coveted landing slots after three years. Under an earlier offer, Flybe would have operated a number of routes but the latest bid, submitted last week to the European Commission, envisages a far greater role for the carrier. It would also take over some of Aer Lingus's infrastructure and offices, the person said. "They have relinquished their old remedies package and have indeed come up with something pretty radical," the person said. One legal expert said that Ryanair's original proposal to give up Heathrow slots to British Airways could have created another competition issue. The EU may also want Ryanair to give up routes where Aer Lingus would have been an obvious competitor, the expert said. "The Commission may want Ryanair to go all in and give up all Dublin slots where Aer Lingus would be an obvious entrant," he said. However, the offer could struggle to cut muster with regulators, given Flybe's shaky finances which could be compounded by taking on many unprofitable routes, the first person said. While Flybe is Europe's largest regional airline, it has issued five profit warnings since going public two and a half years ago. Last August it cut its full-year revenue target due to the impact of continued weak consumer demand and stubbornly high oil prices. It currently operates a fleet of 85 planes across Europe. The European Commission wouldn't comment on the reports. A spokesman for Flybe also declined to comment. Ryanair Chief Executive Michael O'Leary said in an interview Tuesday that he hoped for a "positive outcome" from the commission to his latest so-called "remedies" package. Speaking to Bloomberg in Rome, he said it was "a question of spending time with the commission working through the commission's concerns, trying to tweak the remedy so we ensure that we address the commission's competition concerns and we come up with the best deal for Irish consumers and visitors." Europe's biggest airline renewed its pursuit to snap up its rival, in which it currently holds a stake of 29.8%, in June. The commission threw out an earlier bid saying it would create a monopoly for Irish flights. The Irish government has also come out against the 694 million euro ($924 million) bid. It is Ryanair's third attempt to buy the airline in the last six years and part of the carrier's plans to expand at a time when tough conditions in the European market have led to the collapse of several regional airlines in the face of spending cuts and rising fuel costs. The commission, which is expected to make a final decision by the end of February, is market-testing the new measures over the next few days, one person said. The commission typically garners reactions from third parties of proposed concessions as part of its decision-making process. Write to Vanessa Mock at [email protected] and Marietta Cauchi at [email protected] Subscribe to WSJ: The Wall Street Journal - Breaking News, Business, Financial and Economic News, World News & Video - Wall Street Journal - Wsj.com (http://online.wsj.com?mod=djnwires)

[G-UNYT]

...Oh dear :uhoh:

BBC News - Flybe plans 300 job cuts in revamp programme (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21157000)

[Chesty Morgan]

According to some articles Exeter, Manchester and Newcastle are going to be the main targets.

I assume Exeter because of the management cull but why Manchester and Newcastle?

[jdcg]

So, that would mean one very successful airline, taking over a fairly successful one and then selling half of it to a struggling airline. :\ Not exactly a recipe for success for anyone but FR I suspect.

[Burpbot]

Gci lover! Your laughable and clearly devoid of any knowledge of the actual facts! Keep your bigotry in the past, where it belongs please!

[Rivet Joint]

It's obvious that the aviation industry is suffering at the moment with fuel prices and less people justifying the expense of flying. BE in particular are at risk seeing as domestic travel is the hardest hit but even so BE largely have no competition on most of their routes and it seems these cuts could be the sign of more things to come.

My question is despite the obvious mentioned above whether the purchase of the 175's plays a part? Certainly in my eyes they are a total folly and replacing the undisputed champion of cheap travel in the q400 purely to satisfy the snobbery of jets being better than props. I believe the q400 was a massive reason why BE could grow so fast and become the Goliath it is today. Yes they are noisy and unreliable but they are worked like dogs. Perhaps rather than buying a new fleet money could have been better spent on more frequent maintenance or perhaps even to follow Ryanair's model of buying in bulk and having a quick turnover of replacement?

[bad bear]

Reading the press announcement I noticed "The group’s aircraft fleet will be reduced by seven" so I guess that means quite a few routes with reduced friequency and a few going all together.
Clearly this means a lot of uncertainty for many aircrew, I just hope most of the pain can be reduced by VR, part time and job share. The best thing we on PPRUNE can do to ease the fear and concern is be thoughtful before speculating here.
bb

[Chesty Morgan]

Bad Bear, not sure you've got that entirely right. The route network will remain largely unchanged and the reduction in fleet numbers was from the number of aircraft they had planned in '13/'14.

[Jerbourg]

Here in GCI rumour has it that all Flybe ticket desks are being handed over to handling agents. Announcement expected tomorrow.

[OltonPete]

In view of the BMIR announcement today of BHX-LYS will flybe still announce their BHX service?

The flybe service was actually loaded in GDS before BMIR although not bookable of the flybe site.

Bun fight :ugh:

Pete

[Daza]

Hi OP,
Its bookable on Flybe website now!! Lets hope 12 flights a week (combined with BMIR) isn't overkill? :ugh: Flybe of course have the advantage of codeshare with AF.
Daza

[Daza]

Official announcement of the Birmingham-Lyon route.:ok:
Flybe | Corporate | Media | News archive (http://www.flybe.com/corporate/media/news/1301/25.htm)

Daza

[Jerbourg]

10 GCI based Dash crew redundant.
One based Dash to go, to be replaced with an Embraer (Varient unknown) manned by UK based crew.

[Aero Mad]

One based Dash to go, to be replaced with an Embraer (Varient unknown) manned by UK based crew.

GCI expecting E175 on LGW and then SOU depending on success of the initial service.

[redED]

Will the Islands' government step in on this; making local employees redundant to crew the operation from the mainland?

[Tinwald]

'10 GCI based Dash crew redundant.
One based Dash to go, to be replaced with an Embraer (Varient unknown) manned by UK based crew.'

That could be stress could be the way Fraggle will go to. No need to have a base here. Brum already flown from Birmingham, Manchester can come from Manchester, fly selected Liverpool's and Gatwicks around the orange schedule so 2 aricraft kept on Fraggle?. No need for much else:confused:

[bad bear]

househunter, why are Aberdeen pilot being laid off? Has 90 day consultation begun? Is redundancy by base, fleet, seniority or a matrix? Are Aberdeen route affected by the cuts?
bb

[Aero Mad]

At least there's a new route, and SOU-IOM coming back as seasonal.

Flybe announces Glasgow-Shannon route - Business Traveller (http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/flybe-announces-glasgow-shannon-route)

[Boing7117]

Numbers, bases and talk of redundancies WHEN NOTHING HAS BEEN FINALISED NOR HAVE CONSULTATIONS BEEN COMPLETED isn't helpful on this forum.

If you are Flybe staff you should know better. Stick to the 'official' forums, i.e. BALPA.

[adfly]

SOU-IOM is year round, as per the official press release.

[OltonPete]

Time changes for summer, Aberdeen is back to a BHX based DH8D per the flybe website from the end of March.

This will take the flybe base back to ten (counting the DUS night-stop) plus the flybe/SN aircraft which appears to be night-stopping again and any spare.



Pete

[guern123]

I presume swapping a dash with an E-Jet means the mainland based crew will have to stay over night in GCI. The E-Jet will obviously be on the GCI-LGW route so the crew will need to be here for the red eye out ?
It really is sad times for all the people who are about to lose their jobs seeing as they got Flybe where they are today. When ever I use Flybe I find all crew polite and friendly and very professional especially when it comes to safety, but please lets remember the these changes are being made to secure the company and many other jobs, problems lie deeper than the mangerment in this the who aviation industry is stuggling due to external pressures.

[spottilludrop]

Heard today all flybe maintenance is soon to be carried out by a company called storm aviation, anyone confirm?

[Artic Monkey]

It's a rumour, and the same as any rumours it should be taken with a large pinch of salt until things have been officially confirmed.

[spottilludrop]

From what i can gather its odds on, not good

There was talk of monarch taking on the work at BHX which would have been far better but that appears to have been ruled out

[mathers_wales_uk]

When you say all is this including the MRO done at Exeter?

[spottilludrop]

Sorry, Do not know if that is the case , What i was told was relating to the maintenance carried out at the various airports on the ramp

[Jamesair]

Flybe to close the NCL - Bergen route end of March

[munster]

sottilludrop. why would it be better for monarch to performs flybe's maintenance rather than storm. in my experience airlines that take on another airlines maintenance sometimes have a conflict of interest during AOG situations when additional manpower is required. Storm are not the outfit they used to be, The pay is on par to monarchs, if not a little better, albeit without the airline perks!