Edinburgh-4

[tictack67]

Originally Posted by Flightrider

If you have already got high passenger volumes booked but at low yields, the impact of cancelling mid-season makes the change not worthwhile as the cost of re-protecting those customers over other routes is high. You also can't switch capacity at such short notice to another route, as you don't have the sales lead time for that to take effect. So therefore, you tough it out until you have the opportunity to exit, perhaps when an initial support package of funding to support a new route either expires completely or becomes less attractive. It's not quite as immediate a process as you seem to suggest when you're in mid-season. For a short term period, you've made your bed and have to lay in it.

which route are you alluding to, can you mention?

i work in airline yeild management and that just doesn't happen and certainly not woth experienced operators like UA and DL.

​​Do you have any evidence of mega low fares on any US route out of Edi? one poster earlier even suggested UA/DL gave freebies and bribes to fill the flights, ridiculous.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

When GLA got PIK's transatlantic traffic, they operated facilities like a summer zoo from 1990 until 1995 with multiple wide bodies on the original international pier which is perfectly suited to A319 sized and below!
Saturdays had a 361 seat Worldways TriStar next to a NW DC-10, BA L1011 and AA B767 with Air Canada joining the mix later, with Air 2000 off to Orlando ALL alongside based Britannia etc. It was a wildly unsuitable facility for an extended period, and yet the very year they had it fixed with a new build pier was the year United threw in the towel and after NWA had left.
Bubbles burst, it's their nature. Be careful about wishing too much more into the mix in such a short period.

[Flightrider]

which route are you alluding to, can you mention?

i work in airline yeild management and that just doesn't happen and certainly not woth experienced operators like UA and DL.

My dear chap, I'd hope you could at least spell it if that was your full-time occupation!

Two routes on that list, neither of which are doing well - loadfactor is not an automatic sign of a successful route although generally it is a reasonable indicator.

I think you may find that external support for those routes is a key reason for them remaining in place for now.

[SWBKCB]

Gordon Dewar saying "One American airline said Edinburgh was the most profitable first year it ever had on a transatlantic route".

and nobody bats an eyelid at this comment from the airports chief salesman

[Flightrider]

...and he has much to sell!

[Planeraz]

Originally Posted by Sk1schoolsam

In comparison with smaller aircraft on the routes I think EDI is holding its own.
I wonder if UA and Delta will ever increase the aircraft size and capacity on EWR and ATL similar to DUB in 24?

If DL were to grow the ATL route and “upgrade” the aircraft - capacity wise they do have a few options. The 763ER currently used on the route seats 226. A 764 seats 236 or 246 depending on version. A 772 seats 288 or 296. A 333 seats 293 and a 359 seats 293. A 764 would be a very modest capacity increase and they are expected to be retired in the near future. Would they send a 772? I have my doubts. An A333 would be the likely metal. I don’t see them using an A359 IMHO.

United currently use very old 752’s on the EWR route. Seating 169 or 176 depending on version. They are expected to be retired imminently, depending on delivery of other aircraft types. They also plan to retire the 763 and 764. They do have 321XLR on order and are expected to be the 752’s replacement on certain long haul routes. Production delays probably mean only a small number will be delivered in 2024. They are expected to seat up to 244 depending on config. As the pax figures show in S23 they aren’t too far off filling 2 x 752’s daily - up to 352 seats in peak summer. United also have a huge order for 788 and 789’s. Well documented delivery delays means only a small number will be delivered in the next year. Gas guzzling, expensive and increasingly unreliable 752’s give UA headaches. Their CEO recently acknowledged the problem. Their smaller capacity 788 seats 219. I don’t see them using two of them daily to EDI as they only have 12 in the fleet. Their 789’s seat up to 257 and they have 38. Given the production issues of the 321XLR, using a 789 - 1 x daily could be the outcome for S24.

[ld0595]

Does Edinburgh have the stand capacity for these larger aircraft though? I'm not too knowledgeable about aircraft codes bit surely a 752 takes up more room than a 789 and can use more stands?

[Planeraz]

Originally Posted by ld0595

Does Edinburgh have the stand capacity for these larger aircraft though? I'm not too knowledgeable about aircraft codes bit surely a 752 takes up more room than a 789 and can use more stands?

The answer, right now, during peak summer - no. It only takes a couple of delayed aircraft to create chaos. Sure they have remote stands but this then requires busses. EDI only have 6 in total. Twice a week a Hainan 333 occupies a wide-body stand for nearly 6 hours. Surely the aircraft can be towed to a remote stand to free up a gate?

[Sk1schoolsam]

Planeraz
Thanks for the reply

​​Delta - I know that they have sent a A333 in to EDI on the odd occasion in the past; so why would a 777 or A359 not be an upgrade option on ATL or JFK? 😉

United - Agree it’s difficult to match the current 752 capacity and frequency without either a significant drop or increase in capacity depending on the combination.
Perhaps throw in a 772 on EWR or IAD Or is that overkill?
This is based on the assumption that UA would want to grow the routes that have high load factors but use more efficient aircraft and make beefed yield.
Purely hypothetical of course.
However IMO I don’t foresee a huge recovery in Sterling against the Dollar any time soon given the nature of the UK economy and inflation vs that in the US.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by Sk1schoolsam

Planeraz
Delta - I know that they have sent a A333 in to EDI on the odd occasion in the past; so why would a 777 or A359 not be an upgrade option on ATL

They don't have any B777s so that would be an issue. You'd see an A330 before an A350. Scotland is a leisure market seeing paid off aircraft ending their days with Delta and United. Now UA have 100 B787s coming so that's an option that I suspect we'll see but as the B757 leaves, the A321Ns might see consolidation in frequency?

[tartan 201]

Originally Posted by Flightrider

I agree. It will be interesting. I suspect two routes from the above list won't be here next summer, but we'll simply have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by Flightrider

So therefore, you tough it out until you have the opportunity to exit, perhaps when an initial support package of funding to support a new route either expires completely or becomes less attractive.

Originally Posted by Flightrider

Two routes on that list, neither of which are doing well - loadfactor is not an automatic sign of a successful route although generally it is a reasonable indicator.

I think you may find that external support for those routes is a key reason for them remaining in place for now.

Of all the US routes listed, I would guess that only ATL, BOS and MCO are still receiving initial external support (BOS started in 2019 but didn't operate in 2020 and 2021). ATL would seem to be performing ok given they increased the frequency prior to launch. BOS operated five-weekly in S22 and they increased the frequency to daily this summer and extended the period of operation to the end of the summer season (finished in September last year).

[inOban]

I see that the first Newark flight is cancelled today. Gone tech? What do UA do with the PAX given that all the TA flights are virtually full?

[nivsy]

Originally Posted by inOban

I see that the first Newark flight is cancelled today. Gone tech? What do UA do with the PAX given that all the TA flights are virtually full?

Are they all in a hotel? 🤔🤭....still waiting?

[VickersVicount]

Originally Posted by inOban

I see that the first Newark flight is cancelled today. Gone tech? What do UA do with the PAX given that all the TA flights are virtually full?

With so many EDI UA cancellations, Im sure they’ll know what to do! There are still lots if seats across the various UA routes (none were/are full yesterday/today/tomorrow) and they can divert some via Star Alliance eg AC or LH. The rest will no doubt just wait. Not a pleasant experience again.

[NotanAVGeek]

Air Canada had to wait an hour for a stand this morning. The original planned stand had a tech KLM on it and although AC got switched to 4A and that stand was empty it had to wait until a BA Cityflyer departed Stand 5.

There also seems to be a large increase in lost baggage again, it really doesn’t create a good image for the Airport. Especially when people are starting to go to the newspapers and social media. Another ‘Inside Edinburgh Airport’ TV series would certainly make for interesting viewing.

[VickersVicount]

Originally Posted by NotanAVGeek

Another ‘Inside Edinburgh Airport’ TV series would certainly make for interesting viewing.

I doubt they’d be pushing for that given current issues and recent negative publicity…

[GoEDI]

Originally Posted by Planeraz

The answer, right now, during peak summer - no. It only takes a couple of delayed aircraft to create chaos. Sure they have remote stands but this then requires busses. EDI only have 6 in total. Twice a week a Hainan 333 occupies a wide-body stand for nearly 6 hours. Surely the aircraft can be towed to a remote stand to free up a gate?

There are no code E (A330 size span) remote stands at EDI, so the answer to that is no. Things are maxed out but issues are being compounded by ground handlers unable to meet turnaround times due to lack of staff to match the volume of flights, and constant ATC slot delays into Europe, meaning aircraft are occupying stands longer than they should be. These issues are certainly not unique to EDI, look at what's going on at LGW for example... There's been a couple of years of huge capacity ramp ups, and delayed investments in capacity improvements industry wide off the back of Covid that has clearly been difficult to manage. Hopefully next year will be more stable.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's not beyond the wit of man to park an A330 across two remote stands down by the GAT surely? Or does fuselage length then come into play? Or is that lack of staff once again?

[Saabdriver1]

And EDI not without its own inbound ATC slot delays too.

[Planeraz]

May 23

Pax total for May was 1,289,223. Up 21% on May 2022.

Qatar performed strongly again as did TK and DL to JFK in particular.

Some approx LF’s.

Westjet

Calgary - 94%

United

Newark - 95%
Chicago - 94%
Washington - 94%

Delta

JFK - 98%
Boston - 96%

Turkish

Istanbul - 93%

Qatar

Doha - 96%