Manchester-3
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Very cheap shot re car, and no I didn’t want to say that but as others around her were saying the same thing this morning ,a justified point is it not. That is her point, and indeed her car, but unlike some who post on here, she has the experience of running airports, and business at a somewhat more senior level then noting numbers, and watching planes land and take off.
If she with her knowledge of how airports work, and more importantly make or lose money, can see issues then I would listen to her comments.
She is not impressed with plane spotters and different aircraft, or indeed exotic routes, it’s down to can you make money, as landing and handling those A/C unfortunately no longer pays the bills at provincial airports, and that is what Manchester is, as unfortunately LHR is the UK Global gateway, so you’re landing fees will never cover all your costs.
Therefore you are down to shopping/ parking/ food and drink and how your punters feel about their experience, and hers was not great as she said to me when I arrived. I rarely use T2 as the only carriers I use from there are CX and Singapore so can not say much though, I did note extended lines for toilets last time I went through in passing.
As for Leeds and Liverpool she knows Liverpool very well, and Leeds less so. My own experience of Liverpool, though limited and pre Covid, was fine, and with Leeds my only issues are queuing onto tarmac for immigration ( it was dry thankfully) and the issue with a runway that faces the wrong direction for prevailing winds.
Manchester appears to have spent a lot of money on a badly designed and executed terminal, which seems to be already failing technically in that it has been built cheaply and parts of it are already failing as noted.
You can say yes I am having a go at the design, as that is what I do for a living, and there are better looking sheds in Northamptonshire than the parts grafted into the original T2. It looks poor externally to me, and that is all I can say, and not a great advert for the North of the UK, as though a provincial airport it is the largest one with the biggest global reach outside the SE, so yes a better fist could have been made of it aesthetically. Believe me I do not like LHR and will try and avoid at all costs but MAG should and indeed could better.
Another pertinent question would be when is it going to be finished ? Best guess?
Cheers
Mr Mac
If she with her knowledge of how airports work, and more importantly make or lose money, can see issues then I would listen to her comments.
She is not impressed with plane spotters and different aircraft, or indeed exotic routes, it’s down to can you make money, as landing and handling those A/C unfortunately no longer pays the bills at provincial airports, and that is what Manchester is, as unfortunately LHR is the UK Global gateway, so you’re landing fees will never cover all your costs.
Therefore you are down to shopping/ parking/ food and drink and how your punters feel about their experience, and hers was not great as she said to me when I arrived. I rarely use T2 as the only carriers I use from there are CX and Singapore so can not say much though, I did note extended lines for toilets last time I went through in passing.
As for Leeds and Liverpool she knows Liverpool very well, and Leeds less so. My own experience of Liverpool, though limited and pre Covid, was fine, and with Leeds my only issues are queuing onto tarmac for immigration ( it was dry thankfully) and the issue with a runway that faces the wrong direction for prevailing winds.
Manchester appears to have spent a lot of money on a badly designed and executed terminal, which seems to be already failing technically in that it has been built cheaply and parts of it are already failing as noted.
You can say yes I am having a go at the design, as that is what I do for a living, and there are better looking sheds in Northamptonshire than the parts grafted into the original T2. It looks poor externally to me, and that is all I can say, and not a great advert for the North of the UK, as though a provincial airport it is the largest one with the biggest global reach outside the SE, so yes a better fist could have been made of it aesthetically. Believe me I do not like LHR and will try and avoid at all costs but MAG should and indeed could better.
Another pertinent question would be when is it going to be finished ? Best guess?
Cheers
Mr Mac
Charts show MAN as having 105 numbered stands, not all of which are currently available for use. However, several of those which are sub-divide into L/R format, allowing two narrowbodies to park on the same numbered stand. Set against this, projected based fleet strength for Summer 2023 is 84 units - though not all of these nightstop. A small number of overseas carriers nightstop aircraft at MAN, and there are probably some standby units on campus too. But if we allow for those minus the 'based' aircraft which are away flying overnight, what can we conclude? Yes, MAG should be making plans to construct additional aircraft stands to guarantee future resilience. But NO, this is not a crisis level which should see aircraft turned away in real time. There is certainly ample space to accommodate cargo flight demand ... we're not talking several freight aircraft on the ground simultaneously. One or two at a time maybe ... let's be realistic. And some of those in daytime when demand is much more muted.
It does not require a genius to identify apron space for a couple of cargo movements per day based on current levels of demand. There may be a lack of will to make things work, but there is certainly a way. It's not that difficult. If they're struggling, my consultancy fees are very reasonable! 😀
Shed-on-a-pole were you ATC or airport ops? You really wear your heart on your sleeve which has pros but cons of blind spots. I think only EMA/STN both MAG and LHR/PIK have main deck scheduled regular cargo service. BOH has A346 preighters which are IMHO post COVID not worth the candle. GLA/EDI/LGW/BHX etc have none, although the odd charter isn't unknown. Who's a realistic, profitable candidate here for MAN?
It just seems that some feel that EMA/STN have what is "rightfully" MAN's....
It just seems that some feel that EMA/STN have what is "rightfully" MAN's....
I am not advocating pursuit of cargo business best suited to EMA (or STN). They are a focus hub for the likes of DHL, UPS and FedEx; MAN can only aspire to be a spoke for operations such as these - though this airport should not be artificially inhibited from fulfilling that role where offered. More pertinent to MAN is cargo intended for the NW region specifically - that business IS "rightfully" MAN's, particularly when it pertains to carriers which would like to supplement existing passenger schedules with whole-plane freight services. As for realistic candidates, I am aware of specific carriers which have enquired at MAN. However, it is not appropriate to post commercially sensitive information on here and I'm not prepared to do so.
If cargo business is this dire profit black hole which you describe, why are airports such as STN and EMA so keen to attract such terrible business for themselves? They must see something in it. They aren't charities. And MAG proudly trumpets their cargo prowess.
I note that you reference my "blind spots", apparently borne of raw emotion. However, I put it to you that the data summarised by me in post 2702 has addressed afew "blind spots" of your own. However, please feel free to expand on my "blind spots" (as you identify them) for further topical discussion.
If cargo business is this dire profit black hole which you describe, why are airports such as STN and EMA so keen to attract such terrible business for themselves? They must see something in it. They aren't charities. And MAG proudly trumpets their cargo prowess.
I note that you reference my "blind spots", apparently borne of raw emotion. However, I put it to you that the data summarised by me in post 2702 has addressed afew "blind spots" of your own. However, please feel free to expand on my "blind spots" (as you identify them) for further topical discussion.
May I point out that some years ago, during the summer months the airport was bustling for almost 24 hours, fleets of jets used to flock in at 2am then out again an hour or two later. We don't see that now, it's pretty dead after about 1am.
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Hovis
Maybe young Brit holiday makers got fed up of being hauled off to the Costa,s at 02.00 in the morning. It used to noticeable that other European countries didn’t fly these midnight to 06.00 departures. If not then perhaps the carriers decided those times were no longer good for their business.
I think there are still a few early morning arrivals / departures and indeed I was a woken by one a few weeks ago at home at 02.30 approximately.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Maybe young Brit holiday makers got fed up of being hauled off to the Costa,s at 02.00 in the morning. It used to noticeable that other European countries didn’t fly these midnight to 06.00 departures. If not then perhaps the carriers decided those times were no longer good for their business.
I think there are still a few early morning arrivals / departures and indeed I was a woken by one a few weeks ago at home at 02.30 approximately.
Cheers
Mr Mac
OzzyOzBorn,
It seems to me, as a mere mortal with some business experience, that businesses play to their strengths and MAG management appears to believe that MAN strength lies in passenger operations, while EMA's strength is cargo. If you ever visit EMA you would probably be amazed by how comparatively poor the passenger/terminal facility is, but thats because the investment has gone into cargo.
I would agree it does appear odd that an airport at important as MAN apparently doesn't have a main deck wide body cargo loader, but that investment would surely have to come from a handling agent. BHX has the equipment since it has a small but thriving specialist cargo handling agent that invested in it (Blue City Aviation). Perhaps the way ahead for MAN is to find an entrepreneur willing to do likewise there?
It seems to me, as a mere mortal with some business experience, that businesses play to their strengths and MAG management appears to believe that MAN strength lies in passenger operations, while EMA's strength is cargo. If you ever visit EMA you would probably be amazed by how comparatively poor the passenger/terminal facility is, but thats because the investment has gone into cargo.
I would agree it does appear odd that an airport at important as MAN apparently doesn't have a main deck wide body cargo loader, but that investment would surely have to come from a handling agent. BHX has the equipment since it has a small but thriving specialist cargo handling agent that invested in it (Blue City Aviation). Perhaps the way ahead for MAN is to find an entrepreneur willing to do likewise there?
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One other potential use for 24 hour ops could be the holiday flights to Turkey/Greece/Cyprus. Out at 00:30 for example, into your hotel for 10:00 in the morning
..and then return flight leaving mid morning.. getting back to UK for the afternoon.
This certainly beats the horrible 16:00-22:00 and 23:30-02:40 schedules that put a lot of people off !
..and then return flight leaving mid morning.. getting back to UK for the afternoon.
This certainly beats the horrible 16:00-22:00 and 23:30-02:40 schedules that put a lot of people off !
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It's interesting to note that many observers with no direct connection with Manchester Airport have an opinion, they are of course welcome. Many feel that MAGs strategic planning is on point with reference to freight, but i would contest whether there would be the same degree of enthusiasm for this misguided strategy if their own airport were so encumbered ?
An airport the size of Manchester should be supporting dedicated aircraft handling services to airlines specialising in time-sensitive air freight services, just in time logistics and general air cargo supporting the North of England region.
An airport the size of Manchester should be supporting dedicated aircraft handling services to airlines specialising in time-sensitive air freight services, just in time logistics and general air cargo supporting the North of England region.
Last edited by Navpi; 17th Jun 2023 at 08:47.
It's interesting to note that many observers with no direct connection with Manchester Airport have an opinion, they are of course welcome. Many feel that MAGs strategic planning is on point with reference to freight, but i would contest whether there would be the same degree of enthusiasm for this misguided strategy if their own airport were so encumbered ?
particularly when it pertains to carriers which would like to supplement existing passenger schedules with whole-plane freight services. As for realistic candidates, I am aware of specific carriers which have enquired at MAN. However, it is not appropriate to post commercially sensitive information on here and I'm not prepared to do so.
It's interesting to note that many observers with no direct connection with Manchester Airport have an opinion, they are of course welcome. Many feel that MAGs strategic planning is on point with reference to freight, but i would contest whether there would be the same degree of enthusiasm for this misguided strategy if their own airport were so encumbered ?
Insofar as BHX doesn't go out of its way to promote cargo I would suspect it is in a similar situation as MAN, but I don't see the same wringing of hands on the BHX thread. Its just business reality.
Departures after midnight are not popular with anybody but arrivals after midnight is a different thing with on average 14 arrivals per hour upto 03.00 but departures after midnight were curtailed
several years ago as to be a good neighbour. Do you remember the Laker 1-11 departing off 06 at 0200 on a hot day back in 70s oh boy they were loud
several years ago as to be a good neighbour. Do you remember the Laker 1-11 departing off 06 at 0200 on a hot day back in 70s oh boy they were loud
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And second part of the quiz question, how any other European airports of a comparable size to MAN in passenger numbers that don't have at least one hi-lo on their site.for upper deck cargo handling have an airport owned by the same group with a significant cargo handling facility just down the road?
No, but I've worked in a group structure where different units specialised, so I'm familiar with dealing with similarly myopic views.
And my local has just bought a main deck hi-lo after not having one for years, yet to speak to anybody who has any idea why!
And my local has just bought a main deck hi-lo after not having one for years, yet to speak to anybody who has any idea why!
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Living directly under the 23R approach some 3 miles out I can assure folk after midnight hours for arrivals is still very much a thing - tonight for instance there are 40 arrivals between midnight and 3am - not insignificant and to put in perspective that is nearly as many arrivals between 0000 and 0300 at MAN than LPL gets in a whole 24 hour period. That probably makes MAN the busiest airport in the UK along with LGW during those hours ( LGW has 34 arrivals 0000-0300 tonight ).
Last edited by eggc; 17th Jun 2023 at 09:11.
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It would appear that at one time 2 of the airport's handling agents each had a hi-lo for main deck cargo. Whether the decision to dispose of them and send them elsewhere was solely the decision of the agents, with the approval of the Airport, or at the instigation of the Airport is not clear.
ATNotts refers to BHX, which presumably has a hi-lo that enabled it to handle the occasional ad-hoc freighter during the pandemic.and perhaps still does.
If freight companies and airlines enquire to MAN to operate flights and are told they cannot be handled, why should it be assumed they would automatically go to EMA or STN, the other MAG airports? Isn't it conceivable they may choose to go elsewhere and MAG not get the business?
An earlier post, by navpi I recall, referred to minimum level service agreements that airports require to be agreed by their handling agents. Would this not normally specify requirements for the handling of cargo?
I believe Ozzy is correct when he states that MAN is not full at night, despite the ongoing temporary loss of some stands. However, I do sometimes wonder if the airport creates a misleading impression. For example, a few years ago, it was reported that ryanair could not have the number of extra based a/c they wanted.that summer. That would have been T3 and it could possibly have been terminal capacity rather than parking stands that was the issue. I also understand that airlines wishing to base additional a/c at MAN have to get prior permission before slots can be allocated. Is this correct, and if so, is it something new or been there for some time?
Finally, thank you to chaps1954 for pointing out that there are such things as night restrictions for departures, noise level limits etc.which seem to have escaped some posters. Not sure why hovis thinks things are dead after 01.00. As eggc and chaps 1954 mention, arrivals between midnight and 03.00 can be extremely busy.. .
. . .
An airport the size of Manchester should be supporting dedicated aircraft handling services to airlines specialising in time-sensitive air freight services, just in time logistics and general air cargo supporting the North of England region.
ATNotts refers to BHX, which presumably has a hi-lo that enabled it to handle the occasional ad-hoc freighter during the pandemic.and perhaps still does.
If freight companies and airlines enquire to MAN to operate flights and are told they cannot be handled, why should it be assumed they would automatically go to EMA or STN, the other MAG airports? Isn't it conceivable they may choose to go elsewhere and MAG not get the business?
If freight companies and airlines enquire to MAN to operate flights and are told they cannot be handled, why should it be assumed they would automatically go to EMA or STN, the other MAG airports? Isn't it conceivable they may choose to go elsewhere and MAG not get the business?
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Shed-on-a-pole were you ATC or airport ops? You really wear your heart on your sleeve which has pros but cons of blind spots. I think only EMA/STN both MAG and LHR/PIK have main deck scheduled regular cargo service. BOH has A346 preighters which are IMHO post COVID not worth the candle. GLA/EDI/LGW/BHX etc have none, although the odd charter isn't unknown. Who's a realistic, profitable candidate here for MAN?
It just seems that some feel that EMA/STN have what is "rightfully" MAN's....
It just seems that some feel that EMA/STN have what is "rightfully" MAN's....
(Airports knuckle slapped by competition regulators)
Reuters have reported that airport operators have had their knuckles slapped for breaching both competition and Data protection acts
The Competition and Markets Authority and CAA apparently sent a letter to the operators telling them to review their practices and that they and their employees must comply with the competition laws
No individual operators were named directly by Reuters.
Given MAG are the largest operator of multiple facilities each sort of dedicated and numerous comments here and elsewhere let’s see if this relates to cross selling - Switch selling of the freight and flexible fares business as being the real reason
Perhaps an airline or more have snitched !
I suggest this influences the change of opinions (and that of the new man in charge at that) at the top of Manchester Airport (as opposed to parent MAG) and that they can not continue with overt switch selling without inviting the eagle eye of the regulator.
The potential of a financial penalty may well be multitude higher than the annual leasing costs of have a HiLo Scissor especially a reconditioned one on estate today and then actively promoting the availability of service to potential customers.
Hovis
Maybe young Brit holiday makers got fed up of being hauled off to the Costa,s at 02.00 in the morning. It used to noticeable that other European countries didn’t fly these midnight to 06.00 departures. If not then perhaps the carriers decided those times were no longer good for their business.
I think there are still a few early morning arrivals / departures and indeed I was a woken by one a few weeks ago at home at 02.30 approximately.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Maybe young Brit holiday makers got fed up of being hauled off to the Costa,s at 02.00 in the morning. It used to noticeable that other European countries didn’t fly these midnight to 06.00 departures. If not then perhaps the carriers decided those times were no longer good for their business.
I think there are still a few early morning arrivals / departures and indeed I was a woken by one a few weeks ago at home at 02.30 approximately.
Cheers
Mr Mac
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S
So MAN should have a high-lo to handle the occasional ad-hoc charter? Doesn't seem to have done BHX much good in attracting regular traffic. And also, there is a bit more to it than having the equipment, it's the staff and the rest of the infrastructure. The role of the handling agent is being ignored, BHX have a small specialist company, where's at MAN I doubt whether the mainstream agents would be interested without a regular significant schedule. Ad hoc charters with big freighters are usually a pain in the backside.
So MAN should have a high-lo to handle the occasional ad-hoc charter? Doesn't seem to have done BHX much good in attracting regular traffic. And also, there is a bit more to it than having the equipment, it's the staff and the rest of the infrastructure. The role of the handling agent is being ignored, BHX have a small specialist company, where's at MAN I doubt whether the mainstream agents would be interested without a regular significant schedule. Ad hoc charters with big freighters are usually a pain in the backside.
"More pertinent to MAN is cargo intended for the NW region specifically - that business IS "rightfully" MAN's, particularly when it pertains to carriers which would like to supplement existing passenger schedules with whole-plane freight services. As for realistic candidates, I am aware of specific carriers which have enquired at MAN. However, it is not appropriate to post commercially sensitive information on here and I'm not prepared to do so"
My point was that some airports have hi-lo equipment for the occasional ad-hoc flights they might get, whereas the evidence indicates there is interest by freight companies and airlines to operate into MAN on a more regular basis yet the airport doesn't have the equipment apparentlyto handle main deck cargo.
And in that case, perhaps the handling agents would be interested, as you yourself seem to acknowledge. However, who decides whether or not a hi-lo should be acquired? Is it solely down to the Agents who probably get the inquiries? Does it need the blessing of the Airport that they can accommodate, and are willing to take, wide-bodied freighters? Or could the airport direct the agents to get a hi-lo under the service agreements if they know pure freight business is in the offing? I'm sure someone in the business knows the protocol for those of us who may not be clear.