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Manchester-3

Old 18th May 2023, 06:36
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6
What do the people of Manchester want from their airport ? Should it be a centre for O&D flights to Tenerife ? Or do they want a wider variety of airlines and destinations ?
It's what the north of England wants, not just Manchester and it's both.
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Old 18th May 2023, 07:04
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
It's what the north of England wants, not just Manchester and it's both.
I mention Manchester because the city and its suburbs are MAN's primary catchment area. However, my question remains... what do the people of the region want from MAN ?

One could make MAN into something very leisure O&D focussed, optimising it for flights to the likes of Tenerife, its most popular route... or you could focus on connectivity to a large number of different airports. MAN (like any airport) cannot be optimised for all airlines, all routes and all passengers... a decision has to be made on what MAN should be long term. There will always be a difference between what a LCC wants, and what a long haul network airline wants... and MAN cannot keep all the people happy all the time.

So what do people in the region want from MAN ?
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Old 18th May 2023, 08:12
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The likes of Egyptair, Air India, Kuwait, Gulf Air and flights to America are much more important or if you include European Holiday resorts upgrade to wide body which Jet2 and TUI do
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Old 18th May 2023, 08:16
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"It's what the north of England wants, not just Manchester and it's both."

depends where you are in the "north" - getting to Manchester Airport from the NE or even Leeds is a serious pain
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Old 18th May 2023, 09:43
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It’s what Jet 2 do they look at demand & act accordingly they already fly from both EDI GLA & BHX EMA so LPLMAN was always likely as I’m sure STN will have another London airport alongside soon as will BRS in time
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Old 18th May 2023, 10:34
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They have STN/LTN One thing of interest is airports near the coast often struggle as their catchment area is half the size i:e Blackpool, Cardiff, Teesside, Humberside, Southend,
Bournemouth to name a few. I know that their are more reasons.
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Old 18th May 2023, 12:56
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
"It's what the north of England wants, not just Manchester and it's both."

depends where you are in the "north" - getting to Manchester Airport from the NE or even Leeds is a serious pain
Inclusive and package holiday flights are embedded within the Core DNA that is Manchester Airport and almost from the day that Ringway opened for business and even more from the late sixties to the present day.

Much, indeed most of the development has and remains powered and referenced by this business model. Terminal buildings, R2 and retail in no particular order.

Pier C was built out to accommodate the 747 and DC10s used by certain Canadian and one truly innovative UK carrier of the era.

Britannia brought 767 to inter European charters and Airtours were a leading tour company and both would develop into the long haul opening Caribbean and even South East Asian destinations in their later iterations

This history can not and must not be thrown out with the bathwater and certainly not to appease a few tens of thousands to the leeward side of the city region. Not sorry if some sensibilities are upset by that !

Equally and parallel through the eighties the Airport management were front and centre in battles with the CAA in the pursuit of liberalisation of the archaic bilateral conditions that prevented many/any long haul services at all outside of Heathrow and Prestwick !

Particular mention and call out to Singapore here . American were also a pioneer introducing the MD11 as were Delta in the day (through both have since largely fallen into the alliance consolidation previously referenced sure enough )

Using comparable Düsseldorf neither has the luxury of a resident hub and spoke carrier; through both are significant spokes in the global systems

As a commercial imperative both have and demand an equally balanced approach including delivery and management of a mixed profile of services.

And a further similarity both miss calculated the premier phase of the growth of low and flexible fare carriers; they were still in big airline mode !

Laterally both addressed that and regrettably the neighbouring small airports certainly had a temporary hit .

Just as the big airlines and alliances had a few years earlier consolidation would be the inevitable consequence especially at EasyJet and that process continues to this day.

Last edited by Rutan16; 18th May 2023 at 13:10.
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Old 18th May 2023, 14:22
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Originally Posted by chaps1954
They have STN/LTN One thing of interest is airports near the coast often struggle as their catchment area is half the size i:e Blackpool, Cardiff, Teesside, Humberside, Southend,
Bournemouth to name a few. I know that their are more reasons.
Brilliant point well made, 1/2 your catchment area is fish.
See also PIK vs. GLA although EDI bucks the trend by being a very strong inbound market in it's own right.
There's no reason we should think of favouring one segment at the expense of another. Outbound bucket and spade can live happily alongside rich arab playboys and Chinese students if the infrastructure was in a good enough place. Indeed the airport has a huge reliance on old school outbound short haul beach destinations.
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Old 18th May 2023, 16:22
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Originally Posted by chaps1954
They have STN/LTN One thing of interest is airports near the coast often struggle as their catchment area is half the size i:e Blackpool, Cardiff, Teesside, Humberside, Southend,
Bournemouth to name a few.
I'll let the management at LAX know ...
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Old 18th May 2023, 16:37
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Originally Posted by WHBM
I'll let the management at LAX know ...
I know you are joking but
Not even remotely comparable . Greater Los Angeles is truly massive indeed it 34,000 square miles that a third greater than the entire area of Wales and the third largest economy on the planet!
Now Southend and Leigh on Sea yeah truly comparable, oldies and white van man territory and not a few traveller and mobile home owners to boot


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Old 18th May 2023, 17:06
  #2511 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by chaps1954
They have STN/LTN One thing of interest is airports near the coast often struggle as their catchment area is half the size i:e Blackpool, Cardiff, Teesside, Humberside, Southend,
Bournemouth to name a few. I know that their are more reasons.
Depends how you are defining ‘struggle’. They are all pretty much doing well at what they do, because they weren’t built to be big airports. Problems with SEN acknowledged, but BOH seems to be doing ok. NCL and ABZ are pretty coastal.

Interestingly you neglected to mention the elephant in the room, the one which was built inland with a theoretical catchment area of 6 million people within a 60 minute drive, that has just closed after struggling for 17 years.

LPL being near the coast is likely to be busier than LBA by around 3 million passengers next year if nothing changes. LBA is nowhere near the coast.

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Old 18th May 2023, 17:50
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
"It's what the north of England wants, not just Manchester and it's both."

depends where you are in the "north" - getting to Manchester Airport from the NE or even Leeds is a serious pain
Getting anywhere from the northeast is a pain! but MAN is easier than LHR, LGW, STN, LTN etc, etc
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Old 18th May 2023, 19:14
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Potentially if you hammered it down the A1/M1 you could reach Luton faster than Manchester for one reason - the M62 !!
My last drive from Alnwick to Manchester was 6 hours because of that sodding motorway..
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Old 18th May 2023, 19:32
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Originally Posted by laviation
Potentially if you hammered it down the A1/M1 you could reach Luton faster than Manchester for one reason - the M62 !!
My last drive from Alnwick to Manchester was 6 hours because of that sodding motorway..
You can have problems on any motorway, the A1/M1 aren't immune and there are train services from many places in the north straight into the airport.
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Old 18th May 2023, 20:06
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
You can have problems on any motorway, the A1/M1 aren't immune and there are train services from many places in the north straight into the airport.
True, but the A1 and M1 compliment each other and provide choice. The fact that there is one East-West motorway connecting a combined population of not far off 10 million is pretty shocking. Soon as there is an accident/incident, of which there are sadly many, the road can be closed for hours. Whats the alternative for anyone travelling from East of the Pennines? A load of single carriageway A roads.. Then we have the trains.

I can fully understand why MAN is the major airport of the M62 corridor, but I do feel more should be done to allow us from the Eastern side of the hills to gain better access to it.

Last edited by pug; 18th May 2023 at 20:36.
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Old 19th May 2023, 05:22
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Originally Posted by pug
True, but the A1 and M1 compliment each other and provide choice. The fact that there is one East-West motorway connecting a combined population of not far off 10 million is pretty shocking. Soon as there is an accident/incident, of which there are sadly many, the road can be closed for hours. Whats the alternative for anyone travelling from East of the Pennines? A load of single carriageway A roads.. Then we have the trains.

I can fully understand why MAN is the major airport of the M62 corridor, but I do feel more should be done to allow us from the Eastern side of the hills to gain better access to it.
SW and Pug if i were traveling from Sunderland or Newcastle towards Manchester and Liverpool i‘d have done the East-West portion a sight further North of Ferrybridge !

As for the M62 you know one of its prime reasons to exist where it is is that its a land bridge between the Irish Sea ports and North Sea and well north of Keighley and Saddleworth there is bugger all but mountains and sheep for a hundred miles or more

Last edited by Rutan16; 19th May 2023 at 05:42.
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Old 19th May 2023, 06:26
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Originally Posted by Rutan16
SW and Pug if i were traveling from Sunderland or Newcastle towards Manchester and Liverpool i‘d have done the East-West portion a sight further North of Ferrybridge !

As for the M62 you know one of its prime reasons to exist where it is is that its a land bridge between the Irish Sea ports and North Sea and well north of Keighley and Saddleworth there is bugger all but mountains and sheep for a hundred miles or more
I’ve drifted slightly from topic but I was more referring to the heavily populated South Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire side, which as the crow flies is around 30-odd miles from MAN but can take forever in a car. Anywhere north of Scotch Corner then there are alternatives but again they are pretty poor. Train services in my experience are shocking and take far longer than a car journey down the M62 on light traffic days. Don’t think we will ever see another East/West motorway link, hopefully some time they will provide some form of true High Speed Rail.

It’s actually quicker for me to get to STN than it is MAN from where I am and that shouldn’t be right in my view.
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Old 19th May 2023, 09:03
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pug As far as Nottinghamshire and area is concerned they have EMA but also easily in reach with several international hub links etc. is BHX via M42/A42 which passes the airport directly and would make more sense for them IMHO.
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Old 19th May 2023, 10:14
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I'm struggling as to why this has turned into an "anti Manchester" sentiment where followers of other airports seem to think that Mancunians feel they have entitlement ?

I certainly don't.

If airline A wishes to fly from airport X good luck to them, it's a commercial decision. BUT has Merseyside suddenly been identified as a brand new catchment area containing 000s of potential new travellers who have never flown before, doubtful ?

When one of your largest customers and one the of biggest airlines at Manchester creates a new base (just 21 miles away as the crow flies ), you have to look at the economic justification. I personally happen to believe that it's not market driven based on growth within Merseyside but slot availability and in turn that is down to stand capacity, at MAN ,the trouble is with no end in sight in terms of the work in progress one wonders if this is the thin edge of the wedge ? It's been said that the Manchester market is primarily old skool bucket and spade beach destinations, it's certainly a significant slug of the business so what happens if RYR, EZY, or TUI who primarily serve such markets want to expand at Manchester but feel constricted, is Liverpool now the default position ?

Another respondee suggested "where do you expect to build the stand capacity" and I agree. Manchester is now totally boxed in but who had overarching management of the masterplan ?
The same CEO has been here 10+ years. Could they not have built the transit sheds on the far side of the A538 and demolished the area known as the World freight village. Average throughput is down to 200te a day, ok its not an exact science but in context it equates to the equivalent of 4 HGVs a day.

Rutan mentioned SIA and AA, carriers that were championed by Sir Gil Thompson, he was someone who had a vision as to what Manchester could become and was not afraid to invest to make Manchester a major gateway. Of course the £1bn spend on the terminal is welcome but my point remains you have to have the supporting infrastructure to support the terminals throughput and its only my view but I feel there has been no provision to compensate for that failing whilst the work takes place.

(btw MANFAN If you are going to enter into meaningful debate with the grown ups, please ensure you get your facts right first).

Last edited by AlwaysWatching1; 19th May 2023 at 10:51.
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Old 19th May 2023, 12:10
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Originally Posted by AlwaysWatching1
I'm struggling as to why this has turned into an "anti Manchester" sentiment where followers of other airports seem to think that Mancunians feel they have entitlement ?

I certainly don't.

If airline A wishes to fly from airport X good luck to them, it's a commercial decision. BUT has Merseyside suddenly been identified as a brand new catchment area containing 000s of potential new travellers who have never flown before, doubtful ?

When one of your largest customers and one the of biggest airlines at Manchester creates a new base (just 21 miles away as the crow flies ), you have to look at the economic justification. I personally happen to believe that it's not market driven based on growth within Merseyside but slot availability and in turn that is down to stand capacity, at MAN ,the trouble is with no end in sight in terms of the work in progress one wonders if this is the thin edge of the wedge ? It's been said that the Manchester market is primarily old skool bucket and spade beach destinations, it's certainly a significant slug of the business so what happens if RYR, EZY, or TUI who primarily serve such markets want to expand at Manchester but feel constricted, is Liverpool now the default position ?

Another respondee suggested "where do you expect to build the stand capacity" and I agree. Manchester is now totally boxed in but who had overarching management of the masterplan ?
The same CEO has been here 10+ years. Could they not have built the transit sheds on the far side of the A538 and demolished the area known as the World freight village. Average throughput is down to 200te a day, ok its not an exact science but in context it equates to the equivalent of 4 HGVs a day.

Rutan mentioned SIA and AA, carriers that were championed by Sir Gil Thompson, he was someone who had a vision as to what Manchester could become and was not afraid to invest to make Manchester a major gateway. Of course the £1bn spend on the terminal is welcome but my point remains you have to have the supporting infrastructure to support the terminals throughput and its only my view but I feel there has been no provision to compensate for that failing whilst the work takes place.

(btw MANFAN If you are going to enter into meaningful debate with the grown ups, please ensure you get your facts right first).
I do understand some of your current reticence to be honest with some equally important caveats including the regrettable fact that a considerable element of the pressure from the commercial institutional investors and inevitable cost management that may have not existed in prior decades that said the last two and half years has severely impacted the finances.

The issue with concrete through was certainly discussed here and other places years ago .

What do now and when is a debate for sure that said the loss of those two carriers “may” have provided some breathing space and I suspect the relatively quiet development team are aware of this as well.

The lack of parking particularly in overnight and early morning certainly has had impacts especially pricing out all freighter services and some switch selling to East Midlands for which they have had the their knuckles slapped by regulators

Driving up capacity via larger aircraft on similar frequencies is a tried and tested philosophy in the industry (caveat BA that went in the opposite direction!)

Better management of the field operations should also increase throughput (least from the operational point of view- can’t speak for the slave drivers , sorry handlers though)

I am of the opinion 32million through the terminals should be achievable within 4 to 5 years within the current infrastructure, however above that does become an issue agreed

I don’t agree with you that the Jet2 decision is necessarily driven by constraints at Manchester but more rather level headed business decisions at HQ and their revenue bean counters market appraisals to be honest.

As another said I generally agree with sentiments and views that EasyJet will be put under pressure through that’s for another place

Off the cuff at least T2x actually opened intime and close to budget unlike a certain German airport rebuild

And finally another point on the “sharing the love” theme , as I am in Nantes right now, the French regional towns followed something similar with a million twin jet and hop flights to Orly to appease the local conseil municipal communes and floppy hatted mayors resulting a bucket load on tiny airports with millions of euro in debt.
Rather than a policy of fewer more effective larger airports across the country
The over capacity is magnified over here!

Even Nantes sort of underperforms on many levels beyond flights across the bay and to the Maghreb again another debate through

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