MANCHESTER 1
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Also I should add that the chaos that surrounds the entrance to security at T1 departures has become unacceptable and will only get worse this summer.
With the short distance between the central entrance to the terminal and security area there is an in-built problem that can't be fixed without major investment - therefore not worth it if the whole lot is being dropped.
So people enter the terminal dragging their bags and stop immediately to view the screens right beside the entrance to security. These people get in the way of people trying to enter security. If you are lucky the TCX and EZY check in areas won't be so backed up that they snake in to the same area but then you have the 'oo er what do I have to do now?' folks who are afraid to walk past the plastic bag wavers without a bit of an ass-lick. That causes bottle necks too.
Then you have the entrance to the rear check in (Star Alliance) also in the immediate vicinity. As you walk towards this, you are also met with a tide of people coming towards you from the ground level check in through the narrow doors.
There are generally counter flows of bag dragging pax and choke points all over this area. It all smacks of an Indian Sub-Continent experience to be honest.
Quite how it was allowed to come to this before the major new investment was announced is completely beyond me. But then again I only use it every week so what the hell do I know?
Worth pointing out that Terminal 1 on it's own is the biggest airport outside London.
With the short distance between the central entrance to the terminal and security area there is an in-built problem that can't be fixed without major investment - therefore not worth it if the whole lot is being dropped.
So people enter the terminal dragging their bags and stop immediately to view the screens right beside the entrance to security. These people get in the way of people trying to enter security. If you are lucky the TCX and EZY check in areas won't be so backed up that they snake in to the same area but then you have the 'oo er what do I have to do now?' folks who are afraid to walk past the plastic bag wavers without a bit of an ass-lick. That causes bottle necks too.
Then you have the entrance to the rear check in (Star Alliance) also in the immediate vicinity. As you walk towards this, you are also met with a tide of people coming towards you from the ground level check in through the narrow doors.
There are generally counter flows of bag dragging pax and choke points all over this area. It all smacks of an Indian Sub-Continent experience to be honest.
Quite how it was allowed to come to this before the major new investment was announced is completely beyond me. But then again I only use it every week so what the hell do I know?
Worth pointing out that Terminal 1 on it's own is the biggest airport outside London.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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As you walk towards this, you are also met with a tide of people coming towards you from the ground level check in through the narrow doors.
I can't disagree with your other points though in so far as certain peak periods are concerned.
Join Date: Jun 2015
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DL/VS
I honestly cannot see ATL being reduced to 5 Weekly, I can however see DL operating 1 Daily 767. That would still be a reduction of 287 seats per week.
I'm fully expecting a DL announcement by the end of the season.
I'm fully expecting a DL announcement by the end of the season.
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I honestly cannot see ATL being reduced to 5 Weekly, I can however see DL operating 1 Daily 767. That would still be a reduction of 287 seats per week.
I'm fully expecting a DL announcement by the end of the season.
I'm fully expecting a DL announcement by the end of the season.
Why resume a route they dropped?
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ATL was handed over to VS. DL were clever to utilise VS aircraft in the UK, whilst they operated their own elsewhere to generate even more money.
All I'm saying is the A333 is too premium heavy and DL's 767 is a perfect fit for that type of flight, which is more leisure than business.
All I'm saying is the A333 is too premium heavy and DL's 767 is a perfect fit for that type of flight, which is more leisure than business.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Delta/Virgin at MAN
Delta didn't really drop the MAN-ATL route they passed it over to their equity partner Virgin, who could no doubt operate it at lower cost. The aircraft is arguably on the large side at 266 seats but loads have been fairly good, I think. If the frequency is reduced to 5-weekly that would be a shame but it is probably due to the A330 fleet utilisation not just at MAN but also at LHR because they rotate the fleet, I believe. It could be that to operate the 5 new flights per week from MAN next year (SFO & BOS) would trigger a requirement for an additional aircraft for which there is insufficient work presently, or one is simply not available (TCXs problem!). I am speculating here, but hoping and expecting that any reduction in the ATL frequency will be transient and resolved as new aircraft are delivered. On the broader DL/VS front, Delta have just upped capacity on MAN-JFK by switching to the B767-300 from B757-200, about another 50 seats per day each way, so there is more capacity overall into the DL hubs from MAN. I think it has been suggested on this forum that the future might see Virgin operate everything out of MAN including the JFK. It's getting nearer the point where a full MAN base, with flight crew as well as cabin, could be favourable. It would be a shame to lose the Delta tail from MAN but if it's better for the growth of Atlantic services then so be it.
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The aircraft is arguably on the large side at 266 seats but loads have been fairly good, I think
May (82%); Aug. (86%); Sep. (86%); and Oct. (85%)
The version of the B763 that DL used previously was usually 226 seats in total (26 in J class) although the 208/211 seat version (36 in J class) was occasionally used.
The average VS load exceeded 226 in Aug. & Sep. with Oct. at 225.
The other months were:
June 75%; July 73%; Nov. 75% and Dec. 73% assuming all flights operated daily, although I believe frequency does drop slightly for part of the winter.
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This was a fair point made by A.N.T. Likewise, ATL is a hub for DL/VS, and the more non-stop services there are to other US cities, the demand to fly via the hub is reduced to a degree.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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So let's think this through. Virgin operates a long-established* successful scheduled service between MAN and ATL. They are the only operator on the route. There is no direct competition. Frequency is daily, a strong selling-point for business travellers. Load-factors are strong. At ATL, their codeshare partner offers connections across North America from the busiest airport in the world. Journey-times to the popular state of Florida are particularly appealing.
Now here's an idea. Why not withdraw two frequencies per week from the above service? Lose daily operation. Upset business clientele. Sacrifice those connecting opportunities. And instead become the second carrier twice weekly in a much tougher market, MAN-BOS. And then run that in Summer only. Does this proposition make sense to anyone?
If a Virgin executive has seriously proposed this as a good idea, we should all give generously to an appeal to fund his return to primary school.
* Includes operation by business-partner Delta.
Now here's an idea. Why not withdraw two frequencies per week from the above service? Lose daily operation. Upset business clientele. Sacrifice those connecting opportunities. And instead become the second carrier twice weekly in a much tougher market, MAN-BOS. And then run that in Summer only. Does this proposition make sense to anyone?
If a Virgin executive has seriously proposed this as a good idea, we should all give generously to an appeal to fund his return to primary school.
* Includes operation by business-partner Delta.
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GDS and MAN timetable seems to show Vueling will operate Manchester-Rome 3 weekly from 3rd November.
The usual Monday and Friday flights continue, but also a new Thursday flight arriving 1215 and departing 1255 added.
That makes 13 weekly flights to 4 destinations this winter, an impressive increase from just 2 weekly to one destination in the winter just gone.
The usual Monday and Friday flights continue, but also a new Thursday flight arriving 1215 and departing 1255 added.
That makes 13 weekly flights to 4 destinations this winter, an impressive increase from just 2 weekly to one destination in the winter just gone.
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Shed, I take your points but a couple of things come to mind.
If I'm not mistaken, Delta used to reduce frequencies on ATL for part of the winter to 5 x weekly at one time. In Feb. just gone, it appears VS dropped just 1 flight a week.
Secondly, while 5 x weekly is not ideal for a business person, it's still reasonable in my view in terms of travel schedules.
Re. Florida, VS of course have their own flights to MCO so I suspect the ATL transfers will be for more southern parts of the state - perhaps Fort Myers and Miami. And VS face competition on the latter from TCX now, albeit only 2 x weekly.
That said, there are valid reasons why ATL should remain at daily, at least for the peak seasons, and I certainly hope it does. But as I mentioned, it may come down to optimum utilisation of available aircraft. If that is an issue, I wouldn't necessarily consider it a commercial nonsense to try BOS 2 x weekly at the expense of 2 of the ATL flights if I felt there was likely to be some degree of erosion of the transfer traffic through ATL. I would like to think Virgin's Business Development have thoroughly assessed that aspect and the respective potential of the Boston market.
Anyhow, we don't know for sure whether ATL is being reduced. Let's hope not.
If I'm not mistaken, Delta used to reduce frequencies on ATL for part of the winter to 5 x weekly at one time. In Feb. just gone, it appears VS dropped just 1 flight a week.
Secondly, while 5 x weekly is not ideal for a business person, it's still reasonable in my view in terms of travel schedules.
Re. Florida, VS of course have their own flights to MCO so I suspect the ATL transfers will be for more southern parts of the state - perhaps Fort Myers and Miami. And VS face competition on the latter from TCX now, albeit only 2 x weekly.
That said, there are valid reasons why ATL should remain at daily, at least for the peak seasons, and I certainly hope it does. But as I mentioned, it may come down to optimum utilisation of available aircraft. If that is an issue, I wouldn't necessarily consider it a commercial nonsense to try BOS 2 x weekly at the expense of 2 of the ATL flights if I felt there was likely to be some degree of erosion of the transfer traffic through ATL. I would like to think Virgin's Business Development have thoroughly assessed that aspect and the respective potential of the Boston market.
Anyhow, we don't know for sure whether ATL is being reduced. Let's hope not.
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No ones mentioned Thomas Cook, they commence flights to Boston in a few weeks and to San Francisco in May 2017.
It will be interesting to see how this works out for both Virgin Atlantic and Thomas Cook.
Delta do not really have much of presence at either BOS or SFO to offer connections off the Virgin flights, as these are not focus city or hubs for the airline. So both airlines will be relying on O&D passengers.
Will there really be enough of a market between Manchester and these cities, for both airlines to operate successfully with full flights?
It will be interesting to see how this works out for both Virgin Atlantic and Thomas Cook.
Delta do not really have much of presence at either BOS or SFO to offer connections off the Virgin flights, as these are not focus city or hubs for the airline. So both airlines will be relying on O&D passengers.
Will there really be enough of a market between Manchester and these cities, for both airlines to operate successfully with full flights?
Thomas Cook have removed their tentative S17 expansion to SFO from their website, and the frequency increase on other routes. This happened shortly before the Virgin announcement and has been discussed earlier in this thread.
TCX have now just announced three long haul routes from BFS for next summer. It could be that they have decided the massive expansion they have undergone at MAN over the last two years, coupled with the Virgin news, is enough for the market to digest for now.
TCX have now just announced three long haul routes from BFS for next summer. It could be that they have decided the massive expansion they have undergone at MAN over the last two years, coupled with the Virgin news, is enough for the market to digest for now.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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San Franscisco Boston.....
"A Blessing and a curse"
The tech community are in raptures if you follow Tech North, Sharp Project etc. Infact I havn't seen this much interest in a new service from the busines community in many a day BUT sorry don't start screwing up Atlanta.
Frequency and certainty of operation is what is makeing the route a success. New routes are great but don't turn the solid base we already have into a hotch potch of uncertainty!
Like Lord Shed I'm mystified if @VirginAtlantic route planning feel they can simply shoehorn 7 day demand into 5 day capacity.
...a 20% CUT in frequency is surefire mechanism to pee off your high yield regular passengers!
Think again chaps, long and hard!
"A Blessing and a curse"
The tech community are in raptures if you follow Tech North, Sharp Project etc. Infact I havn't seen this much interest in a new service from the busines community in many a day BUT sorry don't start screwing up Atlanta.
Frequency and certainty of operation is what is makeing the route a success. New routes are great but don't turn the solid base we already have into a hotch potch of uncertainty!
Like Lord Shed I'm mystified if @VirginAtlantic route planning feel they can simply shoehorn 7 day demand into 5 day capacity.
...a 20% CUT in frequency is surefire mechanism to pee off your high yield regular passengers!
Think again chaps, long and hard!
Last edited by Bagso; 1st Apr 2016 at 06:17.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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The ATL frequency reduction angle originates from post #4617 (spannersatcx). Let's keep fingers crossed that it proves a false alarm. I would far rather see MAN-ATL remain a predictable daily schedule than see it messed up so Virgin can become No.2 seasonal carrier on MAN-BOS.
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I always thought it was mandatory to check in your sense of perspective at the door when entering the hallowed hall that is Airlines, Airports & Routes!
While accepting that spanners does often prove to have his finger on the pulse, as Albert says he does start off the ATL comment with 'I've heard...' making the escalating collective blood pressure a little OTT.
While accepting that spanners does often prove to have his finger on the pulse, as Albert says he does start off the ATL comment with 'I've heard...' making the escalating collective blood pressure a little OTT.
Last edited by Curious Pax; 1st Apr 2016 at 08:14. Reason: typo
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Spanners normally has a finger on the pulse so personnally i'm inclined to think his sources are good.
Others may disagree. It's called freedom of speech ?
It's not about being in a tizz based on a rumour that VIR WILL cut ATL , we are all circumspect about stories on here,
but if that is on the drawing board as an option it's more about attempting to counter any suggestion of the merest whiff of a cut !
If there is "smoke" its needs flagging up NOW not after things have been put in place.
We want MAG execs (who do read this column BTW
), to be clear we really need to retain ATL as an embedded successful DAILY route and only invest in "tinkering" if there are spare aircraft.
San Franscisco and Boston s/b an aswell as, not an instead of......as long as that is clear not a problem.
Others may disagree. It's called freedom of speech ?
It's not about being in a tizz based on a rumour that VIR WILL cut ATL , we are all circumspect about stories on here,
but if that is on the drawing board as an option it's more about attempting to counter any suggestion of the merest whiff of a cut !
If there is "smoke" its needs flagging up NOW not after things have been put in place.
We want MAG execs (who do read this column BTW
), to be clear we really need to retain ATL as an embedded successful DAILY route and only invest in "tinkering" if there are spare aircraft.San Franscisco and Boston s/b an aswell as, not an instead of......as long as that is clear not a problem.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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No escalating blood pressure, just bemusement that curtailment of two weekly frequencies from a successful uncontested daily service in favour of running two seasonal flights as second carrier on a weaker route could even be seriously considered by anyone in the industry. BTW, the posting suggesting 5x weekly ATL was posted at teatime on March 31st, not on April 1st (or I might have been suspicious myself). A posting on another forum suggests that the ATL frequency-cut proposal is actually incorrect, and that comes from another usually well-informed source. Hopefully, that will be borne out.
Meanwhile, why are there objections to discussion of a potential fundamental change to one of MAN's longest-established long-haul routes? What is a discussion forum for? If this change is even under consideration then Virgin need to be urged by MAG to think again ... no harm in flagging up the issue. Perhaps you prefer a not in front of the children approach?
Meanwhile, why are there objections to discussion of a potential fundamental change to one of MAN's longest-established long-haul routes? What is a discussion forum for? If this change is even under consideration then Virgin need to be urged by MAG to think again ... no harm in flagging up the issue. Perhaps you prefer a not in front of the children approach?
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VIrgin
Not sure what the point of a 2 weekly BOS service is, low yield in both cabins because of poor frequency and purely leisure driven. Plenty of carriers will put them under pressure for passengers.
Should of added a froth to SFO, less than 4 weekly long haul and it's not going to be useful to many.
Should of added a froth to SFO, less than 4 weekly long haul and it's not going to be useful to many.