Chaos at Terminal 5
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Censored ??
I tried searching youtube for " T5 sorry " .
Up popped the mug shot of the "AWOL" Gareth Kirkwood.
(The item was added two days ago from bbcworldnews )
There had been just 4 viewers.
BUT put the finger on his face and click.
The following message appears
"This video is not available in your country"
I got the same response from another clip ( 24 viewers)
BA apologises for T5 trouble
BA's chief executive has said sorry to stranded passengers but problems persist at Heathrow's Terminal 5....BBC News BA apologises for T5
??????
Up popped the mug shot of the "AWOL" Gareth Kirkwood.
(The item was added two days ago from bbcworldnews )
There had been just 4 viewers.
BUT put the finger on his face and click.
The following message appears
"This video is not available in your country"
I got the same response from another clip ( 24 viewers)
BA apologises for T5 trouble
BA's chief executive has said sorry to stranded passengers but problems persist at Heathrow's Terminal 5....BBC News BA apologises for T5
??????
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The villain of the piece
The real villain of the piece is DAVID NOYES. He was appointed Head of Heathrow in December 2004, followed by the airline’s new Director Customer Services in October 2007. This is the man that led the 'Fit for 5' Training & Familiarisation Programme for all LHR Ramp, Check-in, baggage.....need I go on. He was rewarded with promotion to the Leadership Team in December! FYI he is known in BA as Mr No Yes!
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When he arrived in January he said he didn't really know what the pilots were upset about.
This may come as a bit of a surprise, but many of the population share this view.
I am not endorsing what I am about to say as fair or even just, but the t&c's of many employees in the UK have changed significantly over the past 20 years and they have had to accept that.
So Mr McCarthy may be a little cleverer than you are giving him credit for, since as Noam Chomsky demonstrated with his comments about the holocaust, a little epxression of doubt can be very powerful.
This may come as a bit of a surprise, but many of the population share this view.
I am not endorsing what I am about to say as fair or even just, but the t&c's of many employees in the UK have changed significantly over the past 20 years and they have had to accept that.
So Mr McCarthy may be a little cleverer than you are giving him credit for, since as Noam Chomsky demonstrated with his comments about the holocaust, a little epxression of doubt can be very powerful.
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Rather interesting watching this litlle contre temps from the far reaches of the Western Atlantic and what is playing out. More scenes on the stage than one can keep track of at one time. What I must (as a union card holder myself) admit to being an almost prurient fascination is the what I imagine to be the genisis of this problem at Waterworld.
1. BA aircrew that I know have told me for the last 2 years that they were not confident in the T5 preps.
2. Normal opening day snafues were compounded by a seemingly systemic lack of foresight and training which in the normal course of things management would try to pass off on the workers however this was not normal for...
3. I imagine the initial response was to try to rectify the situation while at the same time having the BA press management get on the horn to their counterparts in the print and video press to intimate that the problems are "morale" related and carry a whiff of the ever menacing threat from the slope-headed workforce that has choosen to work under a collective bargaining agreement.
4. Press starts to gear up the usual anti-slope-headed leader for the top of the fold coverage when all of a sudden the situation reveals it to be more serious and the editors at the Telegraph, Sky, and BBC realize that anti-slope-headed rhetoric may not be enough to cover the story.
5. It goes downhill fast and is no longer funny. Pax are discomfited and worse, their luggage is in the ether and they are losing hope and confidence.
5. Wee Willie, in a breathtaking display of hubris and not sure how to fit it in with his equally breathtaking ambition spawned from an almost pathological case of short-man's disease, "takes responsibility!" That is good. I can take it as well with a serious underlying difference. Wee Willie can look at those American titans of major foul-ups and warm the reaches of his heart. Stan O'Neal at Merrill Lynch saw a Merrill loss in value of 27.4 billion and walked away with a 120 million severance package. James Cayne from Bear Stearns walked with 38 million. Chuck Prince of Citigroup lost more money than I can type and walked with 26 million. Now if you can foul up Bear Stearns and still walk away with 38M then Willie is telling himself that yes, perhaps a Knighthood is slipping away, but no real responsibility need be taken as there will be plenty of lucre either way.
6. With this in mind, Willie reassures senior staff that in NO WAY would their severance packages, should it go really south, ever be affected since he has taken an amorphous "responsibility."
7 . Sky et al., banned from T5. Serious scramble to revamp story since the sullen staff angle is not working.
Never. Not once is the word "leadership" mentioned. It applied when the Greeks fought the Persians and it will apply as long as man walks the earth. We export a lot to the world from this side of the ocean but please do not let your CEOs start this "I take responsibility" line. They are doing nothing of the sort and instead such langauge really is a very biiter insult to the work force to who they are not providing leadership.
1. BA aircrew that I know have told me for the last 2 years that they were not confident in the T5 preps.
2. Normal opening day snafues were compounded by a seemingly systemic lack of foresight and training which in the normal course of things management would try to pass off on the workers however this was not normal for...
3. I imagine the initial response was to try to rectify the situation while at the same time having the BA press management get on the horn to their counterparts in the print and video press to intimate that the problems are "morale" related and carry a whiff of the ever menacing threat from the slope-headed workforce that has choosen to work under a collective bargaining agreement.
4. Press starts to gear up the usual anti-slope-headed leader for the top of the fold coverage when all of a sudden the situation reveals it to be more serious and the editors at the Telegraph, Sky, and BBC realize that anti-slope-headed rhetoric may not be enough to cover the story.
5. It goes downhill fast and is no longer funny. Pax are discomfited and worse, their luggage is in the ether and they are losing hope and confidence.
5. Wee Willie, in a breathtaking display of hubris and not sure how to fit it in with his equally breathtaking ambition spawned from an almost pathological case of short-man's disease, "takes responsibility!" That is good. I can take it as well with a serious underlying difference. Wee Willie can look at those American titans of major foul-ups and warm the reaches of his heart. Stan O'Neal at Merrill Lynch saw a Merrill loss in value of 27.4 billion and walked away with a 120 million severance package. James Cayne from Bear Stearns walked with 38 million. Chuck Prince of Citigroup lost more money than I can type and walked with 26 million. Now if you can foul up Bear Stearns and still walk away with 38M then Willie is telling himself that yes, perhaps a Knighthood is slipping away, but no real responsibility need be taken as there will be plenty of lucre either way.
6. With this in mind, Willie reassures senior staff that in NO WAY would their severance packages, should it go really south, ever be affected since he has taken an amorphous "responsibility."
7 . Sky et al., banned from T5. Serious scramble to revamp story since the sullen staff angle is not working.
Never. Not once is the word "leadership" mentioned. It applied when the Greeks fought the Persians and it will apply as long as man walks the earth. We export a lot to the world from this side of the ocean but please do not let your CEOs start this "I take responsibility" line. They are doing nothing of the sort and instead such langauge really is a very biiter insult to the work force to who they are not providing leadership.
Last edited by Basil Seal; 29th Mar 2008 at 22:39.
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Never Again
I have always tried to use BA as I was under the impression that they were a safe and reliable airline, likewise LHR has been relatively easy to access. Never never again. BA has now proven to be an incompetent outfit with zero interest in their pax and as for BAA LHR management, words fail me. I used another national carrier from LGW instead - a real pleasure. If these pathetically run outfits are to continue in business, they should be stripped of the header "British"; they are nothing but an embarassment.
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Final 3 Greens - How many of the population are 'Director People' for BA? It's his job to know these things. Somehow I don't think a sharp HR director makes all his staff reapply for their own positions when he has two strike ballots in the pipeline and the biggest event in the airline for 20 years just 8 weeks away.
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The difference between staff and management at BA is clear as day. One lot actually do some work, whilst the other lot just 'lord it' over their employees.
As an aside, but one which staff AND management of BA might care to note: My mother just returned from one of her regular trips to Oz. In the past she has always flown BA / Qantas but this time she went with Virgin so I quizzed her about the experience. She said that the food on VS was pretty grim compared to BA, that the seat seemed narrower and a bit less comfortable [Airbus vs Boeing I guess?] and the crew were younger and less experienced, if more enthusiastic than she had experienced before.
Me: So I guess you won't be using Virgin again then?
Mum: Oh, I most definitely will use them next time, even if I have to sneak some decent food onboard with me!
Me: Err, why?
Mum: Because with Virgin everything was easy, straightforward and hassle free. It didn't take ages to check in like it does with BA - I didn't have to stand in endless queues, everyone seemed to know what they were doing and I arrived on the aircraft calm and relaxed. Unlike BA where the whole palaver means I'm totally worn out before I've even left the ground.
BA, please take note!
Paxing All Over The World
Scottish Flyer
Ummm, it's called modern business?
The number of companies these days (not all) who have similarly arrogant 'managers' are countless. Given time, enough staff can protect the managers but, when the managers want their bonus and cut back the staff numbers too far - the managers are left exposed.
Let's look on the bright side ... BAA's grip on LHR is now hanging by a fingernail.
What I can't accept is when everyone tries to pass the buck and no-one takes responsibility and not even an apology is made to those who are affected.
The number of companies these days (not all) who have similarly arrogant 'managers' are countless. Given time, enough staff can protect the managers but, when the managers want their bonus and cut back the staff numbers too far - the managers are left exposed.
Let's look on the bright side ... BAA's grip on LHR is now hanging by a fingernail.
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Scottish Flyer
What I can't accept is when everyone tries to pass the buck and no-one takes responsibility and not even an apology is made to those who are affected.
Ummm, it's called modern business?
What I can't accept is when everyone tries to pass the buck and no-one takes responsibility and not even an apology is made to those who are affected.
Ummm, it's called modern business?
PAXboy
The number of companies these days (not all) who have similarly arrogant 'managers' are countless. Given time, enough staff can protect the managers but, when the managers want their bonus and cut back the staff numbers too far - the managers are left exposed.
The number of companies these days (not all) who have similarly arrogant 'managers' are countless. Given time, enough staff can protect the managers but, when the managers want their bonus and cut back the staff numbers too far - the managers are left exposed.
This style of mamagement is now endemic. As you say, for a long time the hard working 'front-line' employees have been able to cover up for their bosses' incompetence but BA management couldn't be saved from this one.
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No mention yet of the brawling & fist fighting between baggage staff on the first day, resulting in 10 or 12 of them being suspended.
Putting T1 & T4 baggage together in one place is akin to placing two rival groups of rowdy football supporters together in a confined space.
Anyone else heard more about the fun & games on the first day?
Putting T1 & T4 baggage together in one place is akin to placing two rival groups of rowdy football supporters together in a confined space.
Anyone else heard more about the fun & games on the first day?
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> SKYNEWS attached hidden cam to their luggage, go to skynews
> to watch!!!
>
Interesting. The bag in question's journey was 40mins from check-in to aircraft. BA minimum check-in at LHR = 45mins (although I'm not sure I would deliberately risk leaving it that late for my own progress through to the gate, let alone my bag's!)
But, surely that is cutting it too fine on the checked luggage front? Is this as serious as a fundamental flaw in the design of the whole T5 baggage system? (And if that's the case, it's a bit bloody late to find out now!)
> to watch!!!
>
Interesting. The bag in question's journey was 40mins from check-in to aircraft. BA minimum check-in at LHR = 45mins (although I'm not sure I would deliberately risk leaving it that late for my own progress through to the gate, let alone my bag's!)
But, surely that is cutting it too fine on the checked luggage front? Is this as serious as a fundamental flaw in the design of the whole T5 baggage system? (And if that's the case, it's a bit bloody late to find out now!)
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Did someone say sorry ?
beamender99
I tried searching youtube for " T5 sorry " .
Up popped the mug shot of the "AWOL" Gareth Kirkwood.
(The item was added two days ago from bbcworldnews )
I tried searching youtube for " T5 sorry " .
Up popped the mug shot of the "AWOL" Gareth Kirkwood.
(The item was added two days ago from bbcworldnews )
What I got was "No Videos found for No Videos found for '" T5 sorry "'. Which is probably true. I doubt the management give a damn bar worrying about their bonuses.
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Are you sure Skys camera was hidden? I watched the video and it appeared to be all above board with the implication that the filming was done on a trial run. The rest of the baggage system seemed very empty if it was being filmed on a live day.
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Final 3 Greens - How many of the population are 'Director People' for BA? It's his job to know these things. Somehow I don't think a sharp HR director makes all his staff reapply for their own positions when he has two strike ballots in the pipeline and the biggest event in the airline for 20 years just 8 weeks away.
Hand Solo. I am sure that you are a very good pilot.
You also appear to be rather naive, at least from your comment, about business management.
As a frequent traveller, I value your aviation skills highly (and as a PPL holder I am aware of the extremely high competence, command decision making, ongoing training/testing and dedication that you have.)
But if you consider that there is only one director of people at BA and several thousands of pilots, you might conclude that the competition for his job is even tougher than to become an ATPL working for a company that has arguably the highest standards for flight deck in the world.
Do not under rate Mr McCarthy's acumen in what he is doing.
Hand Solo. I am sure that you are a very good pilot.
You also appear to be rather naive, at least from your comment, about business management.
As a frequent traveller, I value your aviation skills highly (and as a PPL holder I am aware of the extremely high competence, command decision making, ongoing training/testing and dedication that you have.)
But if you consider that there is only one director of people at BA and several thousands of pilots, you might conclude that the competition for his job is even tougher than to become an ATPL working for a company that has arguably the highest standards for flight deck in the world.
Do not under rate Mr McCarthy's acumen in what he is doing.
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i heard from someone in loading that management agreed that they would come in & do only six hours, but was tricked & then once there, told they would be stuck there for some like 10 hours!, so with all that, they decided to 
up the operation which helped cause all this. maybe.
BA staff working well together yet again NOT
up the operation which helped cause all this. maybe.BA staff working well together yet again NOT
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The real villains of the piece
Willie Walsh
Chief Executive
Willie Out as accepted blame and is sitting ontop of the piling steaming heap he calls his leadership team. Oh for those that think WW has turned things round finacially without hurting the airline. It doesn't take a genius or business guru to issue the following instruction, 'cut your management by 1/3'. What happens then is the best 1/3 leave with a nice handshake and find a better job leaving the hubris lot behind, all steam and no go.
Keith Williams
Chief Financial Officer
Penny pinching bean counter - Has got to go. Only took over after the last financial bod John Rishton had his coller felt by the US Feds...a little bit of price fixing. Well come on, you need somebody to do the adding up, I mean poor Martin George only has eight fingers and two of them were always up his ass.
Robert Boyle
Commercial Director
Recent BA commercials are ok, lets keep him. We like the cloudy dolphin thing
Paul Coby
Chief Information Officer
Chief no F'in Information officer, got to go!
Garry Copeland
Director of Engineering
Copeland, the engineering problems are still yet to surface, but they are there. See you Gary you gotta go. Cehck out www.airmech.co.uk for details
Gareth Kirkwood aka Gareth Berkwood the BA runner
Director of Operations
Keep him for novelty value, he is without doubt the funniest thing I have seen for sometime. A quick march that could come straight from Monty Python
David Noyes
Director of Customer Services
What customer service? irrespective of Bollock thursday he has to go. Ba customers are leaving in droves.
Tony McCarthy
Director People & Organisational Effectiveness
to$$er from RoyalMail, they didn;t want him, nor do we, letters! I mean laters Tony. Typical Union buster type, probably brought in specially to deal with our pilots. He hasn;t a hope in hell so may as well depart gracefully.
Roger Maynard
Director of Investments & Alliances
Keep him, he may be valuable in coming months
Robert Webb QC
General Counsel
Shrewd man, keep him onside. Very funny when drunk.......but I didn't say that, heard it 3rd hand or he may sue me!
Willie Walsh
Chief Executive
Willie Out as accepted blame and is sitting ontop of the piling steaming heap he calls his leadership team. Oh for those that think WW has turned things round finacially without hurting the airline. It doesn't take a genius or business guru to issue the following instruction, 'cut your management by 1/3'. What happens then is the best 1/3 leave with a nice handshake and find a better job leaving the hubris lot behind, all steam and no go.
Keith Williams
Chief Financial Officer
Penny pinching bean counter - Has got to go. Only took over after the last financial bod John Rishton had his coller felt by the US Feds...a little bit of price fixing. Well come on, you need somebody to do the adding up, I mean poor Martin George only has eight fingers and two of them were always up his ass.
Robert Boyle
Commercial Director
Recent BA commercials are ok, lets keep him. We like the cloudy dolphin thing
Paul Coby
Chief Information Officer
Chief no F'in Information officer, got to go!
Garry Copeland
Director of Engineering
Copeland, the engineering problems are still yet to surface, but they are there. See you Gary you gotta go. Cehck out www.airmech.co.uk for details
Gareth Kirkwood aka Gareth Berkwood the BA runner
Director of Operations
Keep him for novelty value, he is without doubt the funniest thing I have seen for sometime. A quick march that could come straight from Monty Python
David Noyes
Director of Customer Services
What customer service? irrespective of Bollock thursday he has to go. Ba customers are leaving in droves.
Tony McCarthy
Director People & Organisational Effectiveness
to$$er from RoyalMail, they didn;t want him, nor do we, letters! I mean laters Tony. Typical Union buster type, probably brought in specially to deal with our pilots. He hasn;t a hope in hell so may as well depart gracefully.
Roger Maynard
Director of Investments & Alliances
Keep him, he may be valuable in coming months
Robert Webb QC
General Counsel
Shrewd man, keep him onside. Very funny when drunk.......but I didn't say that, heard it 3rd hand or he may sue me!
Excellent piece of work BAengineering , in the words of the immortal Terry Thomas , 'What a shower'
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darrylj
i heard from someone in loading that management agreed that they would come in & do only six hours, but was tricked & then once there, told they would be stuck there for some like 10 hours!
i heard from someone in loading that management agreed that they would come in & do only six hours, but was tricked & then once there, told they would be stuck there for some like 10 hours!
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Some posters on this thread have said how embarrassed and ashamed they are to be British, or to be BA or BAA employees. There’s no need to be ashamed: you didn’t fail – it was middle- and upper-management in both companies who failed. And that’s mainly due to a malady that has been sweeping the world for twenty years or more – the awful, abysmal, MBA.
Too many people have emerged from too many business schools, clutching their diplomas, thinking they knew everything there was to know about managing a business. But stop and think for a moment. Who taught them everything they needed to know? University professors, that’s who. Professors who, themselves, throughout their lives, had only ever been to school. High school, bachelor’s degree, master’s, doctorate – and straight back to school to pass on to the next generation everything they thought they knew. All theory, though, because few, precious few, of them had ever actually managed a business.
So these newly-minted MBAs are then snapped up into management positions, by other MBAs already in place at the big corporations – and the cycle of unknowing incompetence is thus perpetuated.
In many corporations, incompetent management isn’t usually in the public eye, and there are countless ways of concealing all but the greatest of disasters. The airline business, and other industries which directly serve the public, don’t have the luxury of concealment. Their screwups are right there in public view.
- - - - - -
Walsh was quoted in a number of places as saying “The buck stops here.” Absolutely right, Willie. You got it in one. Another quote said “I accept full responsibility.” Well, Willie, do you understand what responsibility is? T5 has been BA’s biggest project during your term in office. It failed. You failed. Your responsibility now is to say goodbye.
Yes, you’re right. It’s not just BA at fault. BAA appear to have screwed up royally, too, and heads need to roll there as well. But BA, as BAA’s customer, should have been driving BAA to perform. Sadly, obviously, they didn’t drive hard enough.
And right now, despite all the hype and the technological achievements relative to the building envelope itself, the important parts of T5 appear to be as big a pile of crap as ever sat in the sewage farm which previously occupied the site.
Too many people have emerged from too many business schools, clutching their diplomas, thinking they knew everything there was to know about managing a business. But stop and think for a moment. Who taught them everything they needed to know? University professors, that’s who. Professors who, themselves, throughout their lives, had only ever been to school. High school, bachelor’s degree, master’s, doctorate – and straight back to school to pass on to the next generation everything they thought they knew. All theory, though, because few, precious few, of them had ever actually managed a business.
So these newly-minted MBAs are then snapped up into management positions, by other MBAs already in place at the big corporations – and the cycle of unknowing incompetence is thus perpetuated.
In many corporations, incompetent management isn’t usually in the public eye, and there are countless ways of concealing all but the greatest of disasters. The airline business, and other industries which directly serve the public, don’t have the luxury of concealment. Their screwups are right there in public view.
- - - - - -
Walsh was quoted in a number of places as saying “The buck stops here.” Absolutely right, Willie. You got it in one. Another quote said “I accept full responsibility.” Well, Willie, do you understand what responsibility is? T5 has been BA’s biggest project during your term in office. It failed. You failed. Your responsibility now is to say goodbye.
Yes, you’re right. It’s not just BA at fault. BAA appear to have screwed up royally, too, and heads need to roll there as well. But BA, as BAA’s customer, should have been driving BAA to perform. Sadly, obviously, they didn’t drive hard enough.
And right now, despite all the hype and the technological achievements relative to the building envelope itself, the important parts of T5 appear to be as big a pile of crap as ever sat in the sewage farm which previously occupied the site.