Chaos at Terminal 5
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T5
yes to all above, get rid of Willie Walsh, it a sad dad for T5 and the irish, and am Irish, and ex EI, and not because of Willie,
i saw what was coming,
i saw what was coming,
Last edited by WEST12; 30th Mar 2008 at 00:03.
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Tigs2
Pasoundman, Care to answer me and Cargosales. We are on your side you know!!
Pasoundman, Care to answer me and Cargosales. We are on your side you know!!
I'm surprised you need to ask but here goes.
The pilots (aside from management pilots - well even they may be ok), cabin crew, baggage loaders, check-in staff etc, etc are all 'staff'.
Management are the tossers who have the best paid jobs, you know with nice offices, allegedly determining 'policy' (like how many people to employ - or should that be sack - and where) and how the airline (in this case) is generally run. Whilst the majority of managers are indeed simply employees, there is a quite different culture to management today and it's been getting more pronounded over the years as a brand new kind of idiot called the MBA has made inroads into the business.
Have you never heard of the 'barrow boy' mentality in The City that boomed under Thatcher's auspices ? These guys were notably PROUD of their lack of academic or general educational achievement. And of course, whilst things were rosy, they did Ok as ANYONE would have done !
Now we have a new bunch of similar characters whose only skill in business is in passing a degree called an MBA who are now widely esconced in British businesses and killing them slowly by a thousand cuts and general incompetence. BA is NOT unique by any means, but a high profile project like T5 has exposed them to be the unworthy bunch of ****s they are.
My advice ? Don't trust anyone wearing a smart suit. It's all show you see.
Mistrust in Management
West 12 is right
Get rid of the little Tinker along with the leadership team. The PR fiasco is appalling for all pax and shareholders - even worse than the dog's breakfast that is the move to T5. The misleading letter to pax - are the management on drugs.
Can't believe they, or the BAA, stopped the BBC and Sky from entering the terminal - that will make the press desist won't it.
This comes on top of all the other recent stuff about fuel surcharges, freight charge colusion etc.
You can kind of see why the late Sir Freddie was somewhat annoyed by the airline who used to state 'We'll take good care of you'. We'll rip you off in the process of 'losing' you luggage is somewhat more like it.
I still have to fly with BA at times because my airline book tickets with them - I've asked them to stop doing it.
Regards
Exeng
Can't believe they, or the BAA, stopped the BBC and Sky from entering the terminal - that will make the press desist won't it.
This comes on top of all the other recent stuff about fuel surcharges, freight charge colusion etc.
You can kind of see why the late Sir Freddie was somewhat annoyed by the airline who used to state 'We'll take good care of you'. We'll rip you off in the process of 'losing' you luggage is somewhat more like it.
I still have to fly with BA at times because my airline book tickets with them - I've asked them to stop doing it.
Regards
Exeng
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Pasoundman
I bow to your in depth knowledge of the comapany and I agree with your arguments. Please agree that myself and Cargosales are completely correct with our comments in that we do not know the structure of BA staff, and even from your previous post at the end of the day staff are staff! I do not agree with your predjudices of pay grades and offices to segregate people as management or otherwise. I know of some fantastic guys in BA management who do not fit your profile. After this week there are clearly some tossers!
I bow to your in depth knowledge of the comapany and I agree with your arguments. Please agree that myself and Cargosales are completely correct with our comments in that we do not know the structure of BA staff, and even from your previous post at the end of the day staff are staff! I do not agree with your predjudices of pay grades and offices to segregate people as management or otherwise. I know of some fantastic guys in BA management who do not fit your profile. After this week there are clearly some tossers!
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Good luck trying to run a complex world spanning airline with no management. A lot of the bile and apparent class bitterness is easily disproved because sadly for your argument, there are one or several rather good British firms doing quite well. They are well managed often by men who work very hard to gain an MBA. These business schools are not taught by professors in ivory towers but by real business types as well as experienced professionals. So let's dial down the 1970s hatred of the white collar succesful man and get over the fact you don't work in an office for a moment. Stop generalising about things you evidently know little about.
The problems at BA are that BA is BADLY managed. That is not headline news. It has been well managed in the past, I will point to Lord King and Lord Marshall who were far from angels or perfect but delivered results with a class product. Contrast that will Ayling and his ethnic tail fins PR calamity, I loved them but they were too clever by half and the airline is much better served with the iconic union flag. Also contrast Rod Eddington with Mr Walsh who is comic material gold and a classic little chap with a big ego. He's a laughing stock, his managers are shown to have been absent in due diligence and for the first time in my life I think that BA deserve to fail. Really, they're a national bloody joke !
The problems at BA are that BA is BADLY managed. That is not headline news. It has been well managed in the past, I will point to Lord King and Lord Marshall who were far from angels or perfect but delivered results with a class product. Contrast that will Ayling and his ethnic tail fins PR calamity, I loved them but they were too clever by half and the airline is much better served with the iconic union flag. Also contrast Rod Eddington with Mr Walsh who is comic material gold and a classic little chap with a big ego. He's a laughing stock, his managers are shown to have been absent in due diligence and for the first time in my life I think that BA deserve to fail. Really, they're a national bloody joke !
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Quote:
Tigs2
Pasoundman, Care to answer me and Cargosales. We are on your side you know!!
You mean about who's staff and who's management ?
I'm surprised you need to ask but here goes.
The pilots (aside from management pilots - well even they may be ok), cabin crew, baggage loaders, check-in staff etc, etc are all 'staff'.
Management are the tossers who have the best paid jobs, you know with nice offices, allegedly determining 'policy' (like how many people to employ - or should that be sack - and where) and how the airline (in this case) is generally run. Whilst the majority of managers are indeed simply employees, there is a quite different culture to management today and it's been getting more pronounded over the years as a brand new kind of idiot called the MBA has made inroads into the business.
Have you never heard of the 'barrow boy' mentality in The City that boomed under Thatcher's auspices ? These guys were notably PROUD of their lack of academic or general educational achievement. And of course, whilst things were rosy, they did Ok as ANYONE would have done !
Now we have a new bunch of similar characters whose only skill in business is in passing a degree called an MBA who are now widely esconced in British businesses and killing them slowly by a thousand cuts and general incompetence. BA is NOT unique by any means, but a high profile project like T5 has exposed them to be the unworthy bunch of ****s they are.
My advice ? Don't trust anyone wearing a smart suit. It's all show you see.
Tigs2
Pasoundman, Care to answer me and Cargosales. We are on your side you know!!
You mean about who's staff and who's management ?
I'm surprised you need to ask but here goes.
The pilots (aside from management pilots - well even they may be ok), cabin crew, baggage loaders, check-in staff etc, etc are all 'staff'.
Management are the tossers who have the best paid jobs, you know with nice offices, allegedly determining 'policy' (like how many people to employ - or should that be sack - and where) and how the airline (in this case) is generally run. Whilst the majority of managers are indeed simply employees, there is a quite different culture to management today and it's been getting more pronounded over the years as a brand new kind of idiot called the MBA has made inroads into the business.
Have you never heard of the 'barrow boy' mentality in The City that boomed under Thatcher's auspices ? These guys were notably PROUD of their lack of academic or general educational achievement. And of course, whilst things were rosy, they did Ok as ANYONE would have done !
Now we have a new bunch of similar characters whose only skill in business is in passing a degree called an MBA who are now widely esconced in British businesses and killing them slowly by a thousand cuts and general incompetence. BA is NOT unique by any means, but a high profile project like T5 has exposed them to be the unworthy bunch of ****s they are.
My advice ? Don't trust anyone wearing a smart suit. It's all show you see.
As Tigs says, we are on your side but proving that is a teensy bit difficult when you can't/don't/won't answer fundamental questions about where 'staff' ends and 'management' begins. We don't work for BA (do you???) and have no knowledge of reporting lines therein. Please could you enlighten us so we have a better understanding of the problems within BA?
Thanks
CS
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Censored ??
I tried searching youtube for " T5 sorry "
I tried searching youtube for " T5 sorry "
( the only clip I saw live of Max was when he was asked " on a scale of 1-10 how does the T5 scene rate ? Answer 12
There had been just 1 viewer.
BUT put the finger on his face and click.
The following message appears
"This video is not available in your country"
The following message appears
"This video is not available in your country"
It would appear that someone is very busy with the gagging tools.
??????
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Skipness One Echo
Good luck trying to run a complex world spanning airline with no management.
Good luck trying to run a complex world spanning airline with no management.
All that's needed is a COMPETENT management, ideally one that understands the job, and a bunch of halfwit MBAs absolutely doesn't fit the bill.
And actually, I doubt the 'management' gets much involved with route planning.
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MBA !!
Ha Ha Ha ha ha ha.
A joke qualification of the 1990's and 2000's.
If you want to manage something you absolutely have to know how it works and have 'coalface' experience of the job.
Too many paperwork qualified in-experienced prats in too many key roles in this country. BA is just todays high profile MBA driven c**k up. Another will be long to claim the accolade tomorrow.
Ha Ha Ha ha ha ha.
A joke qualification of the 1990's and 2000's.
If you want to manage something you absolutely have to know how it works and have 'coalface' experience of the job.
Too many paperwork qualified in-experienced prats in too many key roles in this country. BA is just todays high profile MBA driven c**k up. Another will be long to claim the accolade tomorrow.
Mistrust in Management
tigs2
After this week there are clearly some to**ers!
Short termist to**ers that will destroy the airline along with shareholder value. If you are a sharholder in BA this is a time to consider selling.
Next in line is the Pilots strike which should see the shares well back to junk bond value. All this under the leadership of the 'little Tinker' with the leadership team.
BA management are not interested in anything else other than their own financial and personal status. They have royally screwed up for decades and survive only because of their historical monopoly of slots.
The only hope for BA is that a complete clean out of management takes place - until that time expect more regular bad news.
best of luck to the shareholders that stick with it - I admire your guts.
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A comment from the Daily Mail page on T5 chaos
I thought you may be interested in this, copied from the DM
I worked as a network engineer on the T5 project. I started when the building was still a shell and finished just before the trials. Let me say with confidence that it was shambolic from the beginning. The number of project managers, slavishly working towards their own individual 'project milestones' - usually to the detriment of other project teams, was lamentable.
Never before have I seen so many incompetent, self-serving managers in one place. I'm still in touch with sub-contracted engineers working on the project and to a man, we all knew that something like this would happen. I emailed them yesterday and they replied saying that they 'couldn't stop laughing'. The job was poorly coordinated, rushed and the organisation defied logic. From day 1,even before it had been built, the tag-line just below the logo on all the project documentation stated "T5, The Worlds most successful Airport Development" Arrogance or what?
- D Martin, Guildford, UK
I worked as a network engineer on the T5 project. I started when the building was still a shell and finished just before the trials. Let me say with confidence that it was shambolic from the beginning. The number of project managers, slavishly working towards their own individual 'project milestones' - usually to the detriment of other project teams, was lamentable.
Never before have I seen so many incompetent, self-serving managers in one place. I'm still in touch with sub-contracted engineers working on the project and to a man, we all knew that something like this would happen. I emailed them yesterday and they replied saying that they 'couldn't stop laughing'. The job was poorly coordinated, rushed and the organisation defied logic. From day 1,even before it had been built, the tag-line just below the logo on all the project documentation stated "T5, The Worlds most successful Airport Development" Arrogance or what?
- D Martin, Guildford, UK
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cargosales
pasoundman, that's a lovely, very emotional but entirely uninformative reply. Would you care to have another go please?
As Tigs says, we are on your side but proving that is a teensy bit difficult when you can't/don't/won't answer fundamental questions about where 'staff' ends and 'management' begins.
pasoundman, that's a lovely, very emotional but entirely uninformative reply. Would you care to have another go please?
As Tigs says, we are on your side but proving that is a teensy bit difficult when you can't/don't/won't answer fundamental questions about where 'staff' ends and 'management' begins.
You see, any business has a heirarchy that's a bit like a pyramid. You need lots of people doing the day to day routine stuff at the lower levels and so on and so forth until you get ONE person like WW at the top.
Now, you might expect or hope that those at the top ought to be the best educated, experienced, skilled and informed that the company has but this is not assured. And this is where BA has fallen down.
Furthermore there seems to be a culture that's arisen where the everyday staff know that reporting 'bad news' is unwelcome, so they have probably more or less given up even trying to tell the various layers of management where the problems exist. After so long you realise it's probably not worth bothering.
Ever seen the film "I'm Alright Jack" ? Not quite the same but it might be instructive.
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Just a thought - but (and I think I may know the answer to this...) - is there a "back out" plan for T5?
I've project managed a few large projects in my time (although none as big and as complex as the T5 move) and the golden rule was "always have a back out" - ie, if it all goes tango uniform, get back to something that you knew worked.
Could BA go back to T1 and has anyone planned for it??
TA (with an MBA, without chip on shoulder)....
I've project managed a few large projects in my time (although none as big and as complex as the T5 move) and the golden rule was "always have a back out" - ie, if it all goes tango uniform, get back to something that you knew worked.
Could BA go back to T1 and has anyone planned for it??
TA (with an MBA, without chip on shoulder)....
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The videos for those who missed the TV items.
The original Gareth Kirkwood
( omitting his immediate departure, ignoring questions and his oppo shutting the door to stop the reporter following him. -27th Mar.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...317579&bbcws=1
W Walsh -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...news=1&bbcws=1
Max Clifford 28th Mar
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...news=1&bbcws=1
( omitting his immediate departure, ignoring questions and his oppo shutting the door to stop the reporter following him. -27th Mar.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...317579&bbcws=1
W Walsh -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...news=1&bbcws=1
Max Clifford 28th Mar
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...news=1&bbcws=1
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TwinAisle
Just a thought - but (and I think I may know the answer to this...) - is there a "back out" plan for T5?
I've project managed a few large projects in my time (although none as big and as complex as the T5 move) and the golden rule was "always have a back out" - ie, if it all goes tango uniform, get back to something that you knew worked.
Just a thought - but (and I think I may know the answer to this...) - is there a "back out" plan for T5?
I've project managed a few large projects in my time (although none as big and as complex as the T5 move) and the golden rule was "always have a back out" - ie, if it all goes tango uniform, get back to something that you knew worked.
I think it's not entirely impossible they may need to retrench to T1 though.
Bear in mind. there are currently 450 'extra' staff in T5 to help and they still can't get more than 80% of flights away !
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beamender99
W Walsh - http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...news=1&bbcws=1
W Walsh - http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...news=1&bbcws=1
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Originally Posted by TwinAisle
Could BA go back to T1 and has anyone planned for it??
And at T4 I think there are several new USA flights starting Sunday with Delta and Continental that need the space.