MANSTON -3
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Expressflight:
Do you regularly drive to STN or LTN? Googlemaps are having a laugh!
I thought we were arguing about the suggestion that Manston could take some of the load off the London airports. So how many average punters do you know who travel by Bizjet? So that rules out Biggin Hill as a viable alternative what with its lease conditions and all. SEN may get a runway extension and a railway station in 3 years but then it might not (look at Lydd), Manston already has the facilities and subject to traffic increasing significantly it wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility for it to get its own station as the local railway line runs quite close by and there's no major obstructions and lots of open land to build it on. It would also be on one of the routes that connect to the high-speed CTRL line.
nickmanl:
If you go back to around post #182 on this thread you might discover that EUjet was actually doing OK, bad management brought about its downfall. In any case what is everybody's problem with Manston getting a pax service or three? I suspect there may be some out there with a vested interest in seeing it fail and become a building site?
Do you regularly drive to STN or LTN? Googlemaps are having a laugh!
I thought we were arguing about the suggestion that Manston could take some of the load off the London airports. So how many average punters do you know who travel by Bizjet? So that rules out Biggin Hill as a viable alternative what with its lease conditions and all. SEN may get a runway extension and a railway station in 3 years but then it might not (look at Lydd), Manston already has the facilities and subject to traffic increasing significantly it wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility for it to get its own station as the local railway line runs quite close by and there's no major obstructions and lots of open land to build it on. It would also be on one of the routes that connect to the high-speed CTRL line.
nickmanl:
If you go back to around post #182 on this thread you might discover that EUjet was actually doing OK, bad management brought about its downfall. In any case what is everybody's problem with Manston getting a pax service or three? I suspect there may be some out there with a vested interest in seeing it fail and become a building site?
Join Date: Jun 2007
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al
Why dont we just suport Manston airport what other airports do is not our concern one day we will proud of Manston and what they have achieved .We have been waiting for Manston to take off .lets hope it wont be to long .To those who are ante Manston ,Life will carry on reguardless of what they say.
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Fact
Guys during EUjet operations even the marketing team at MSE were amazed at the percentage of pax that were being attracted by EUjet from South London. I admit this was most probably due to the very cheap seats on offer.
However, why oh why is everyone so hung up on onward travel to London? The potential pax who will use Manston will come from Kent, Sussex and Essex.
Pax who want to travel to North London will not use MSE.
Just because Gatwick, Heathrow, City and Stansted are called London Airports it does not mean that the inbound and outbound passengers only come from London.
Get a grip!! Whilst it is possible to fly into Southampton and then hop on a train to London in about 75 mins SOU does not claim to be a London Airport nor would it be regarded as such but it is handling nearly 2million pax
MDIS
PS Catflaps, I do agree Boris won't be Mayor but I think the jury is out as to whether Gordon holds on.
However, why oh why is everyone so hung up on onward travel to London? The potential pax who will use Manston will come from Kent, Sussex and Essex.
Pax who want to travel to North London will not use MSE.
Just because Gatwick, Heathrow, City and Stansted are called London Airports it does not mean that the inbound and outbound passengers only come from London.
Get a grip!! Whilst it is possible to fly into Southampton and then hop on a train to London in about 75 mins SOU does not claim to be a London Airport nor would it be regarded as such but it is handling nearly 2million pax
MDIS
PS Catflaps, I do agree Boris won't be Mayor but I think the jury is out as to whether Gordon holds on.
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Well said MDIS. I made that point some time back, not everyone that comes to England wants to end up in London. I am sure that there are other tourist destinations other than London. As you said the idea is to take some of the load away from the big three, so it seems that an already built airport, thats ready to go, would be a good place to start. I am sure that not every passenger carried by EUjet came from Thanet.
Lets hope something comes about soon, perhaps Boris Johnsons visit will put a bit of government interest into Manston and who knows maybe a bit of cash to spend on some good PR. Still I wont hold my breath!!
Lets hope something comes about soon, perhaps Boris Johnsons visit will put a bit of government interest into Manston and who knows maybe a bit of cash to spend on some good PR. Still I wont hold my breath!!
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It would also be on one of the routes that connect to the high-speed CTRL line.
Manstonman
I'm sorry that my quoted driving times don't suit your argument, so let's try AA Routefinder instead for the times to Canary Wharf:
STN 78min
LTN 75min
SEN 69min
MSE 108min
Perhaps the AA are "having a laugh" as well as Google.
As far as whether bizjet traffic forms an important element of London area traffic, are you aware that in 2007 Luton had 25,600 such movements and Farnborough 26,500?
I would have thought that, with MSE as well placed as you claim to cater for London bound/originating traffic, it would be a good idea to try to pick up some of that business. Or is it just passenger flights which contribute to airport revenues?
I'm sorry that my quoted driving times don't suit your argument, so let's try AA Routefinder instead for the times to Canary Wharf:
STN 78min
LTN 75min
SEN 69min
MSE 108min
Perhaps the AA are "having a laugh" as well as Google.
As far as whether bizjet traffic forms an important element of London area traffic, are you aware that in 2007 Luton had 25,600 such movements and Farnborough 26,500?
I would have thought that, with MSE as well placed as you claim to cater for London bound/originating traffic, it would be a good idea to try to pick up some of that business. Or is it just passenger flights which contribute to airport revenues?
Join Date: Apr 2004
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It appears this thread just goes round in circles. There is an awful lot of people feeling victimised on here! No one has anything against Manston. Some people however, just have differing opinions regarding future operations at the airport.
We can argue all day about how successful EUJet were, but at the end of the day they aren’t in operation any more. I’m sure people from London did fly with the airline. However, as mentioned before in all likelihood this was as due to the dirt cheap prices on offer. Would people from London seriously be tempted if an airline started operations whose prices were not all Ł1? I really don’t think they would, especially considering the low cost airline hubs located at airports which are much easier to access.
I can’t believe people here are claiming the immediate catchment area is big enough to support flights! C’mon guys, Ramsgate has a population of 40,000 people. The immediate catchment area might be around 200k max but if we go any further than the pull of Gatwick and other airports comes into play. That pop figure is no where near big enough to support an airline, therefore London has to be targeted to attract people. However the location of the airport and lack of infrastructure could be a real problem. Are people seriously suggesting people would come from abroad to visit Ramsgate? I really doubt it! In all truth the airport isn’t even well located for the rest of Kent.
I can’t believe Southampton is being compared to Manston, They are very different! Southampton is located in a much bigger conurbation with the local population totalling probably something like 500k, not to mention its importance as a dock and port.
In truth I don’t claim to know enough about the area. Perhaps a few selected routes may work in turboprop aircraft but whether it is sustainable long term is anyones guess. I do however really doubt whether a serious, long term operation will ever happen. You have to ask yourself would an airline operation work which would see the airport operator make a profit or would it have to be a deal where huge incentives are put on offer to attract an airline? Aviation has boomed massively in the last ten years and Manston was constantly overlooked. What with a possible recession on the way, perhaps Manston has missed the boat, and no matter how much blind optimism people have will change that.
We can argue all day about how successful EUJet were, but at the end of the day they aren’t in operation any more. I’m sure people from London did fly with the airline. However, as mentioned before in all likelihood this was as due to the dirt cheap prices on offer. Would people from London seriously be tempted if an airline started operations whose prices were not all Ł1? I really don’t think they would, especially considering the low cost airline hubs located at airports which are much easier to access.
I can’t believe people here are claiming the immediate catchment area is big enough to support flights! C’mon guys, Ramsgate has a population of 40,000 people. The immediate catchment area might be around 200k max but if we go any further than the pull of Gatwick and other airports comes into play. That pop figure is no where near big enough to support an airline, therefore London has to be targeted to attract people. However the location of the airport and lack of infrastructure could be a real problem. Are people seriously suggesting people would come from abroad to visit Ramsgate? I really doubt it! In all truth the airport isn’t even well located for the rest of Kent.
I can’t believe Southampton is being compared to Manston, They are very different! Southampton is located in a much bigger conurbation with the local population totalling probably something like 500k, not to mention its importance as a dock and port.
In truth I don’t claim to know enough about the area. Perhaps a few selected routes may work in turboprop aircraft but whether it is sustainable long term is anyones guess. I do however really doubt whether a serious, long term operation will ever happen. You have to ask yourself would an airline operation work which would see the airport operator make a profit or would it have to be a deal where huge incentives are put on offer to attract an airline? Aviation has boomed massively in the last ten years and Manston was constantly overlooked. What with a possible recession on the way, perhaps Manston has missed the boat, and no matter how much blind optimism people have will change that.
Join Date: May 2006
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"In truth I don’t claim to know enough about the area. Perhaps a few selected routes may work in turboprop aircraft but whether it is sustainable long term is anyones guess."
It may suprise a few of you, but it is over ten years since the terminal freehold was sold into private ownership and nine years since the rest of the airport followed it. In all of that time there have been constant cries about how profitable and successful it could be. Yet, year on year it has cost the owners millions and generated few jobs. We were constantly told "Time will tell." I think time HAS told, and it has told us that Manston is in the wrong place. In my opinion, the window of opportunity has now closed and Infratil would be well-advised to cut their losses and propose some alternative use for the land which will be of real benefit to the local population.
P.S. I hear (from someone who's been in touch with his office) that Boris won't be coming to view it. Perhaps Carter needs to have a rethink.
P.P.S. EIDFZ posted the following: "I heard one year 2865 complaints were recieved in reference to noise ect, 2789 were from the same four people!!"
I don't know where you heard this chum but it is absolutely false. The complaints statistics are publicly available and I suggest you refer to them before posting in future. Manston generates a large number of complaints considering how little used it is.
It may suprise a few of you, but it is over ten years since the terminal freehold was sold into private ownership and nine years since the rest of the airport followed it. In all of that time there have been constant cries about how profitable and successful it could be. Yet, year on year it has cost the owners millions and generated few jobs. We were constantly told "Time will tell." I think time HAS told, and it has told us that Manston is in the wrong place. In my opinion, the window of opportunity has now closed and Infratil would be well-advised to cut their losses and propose some alternative use for the land which will be of real benefit to the local population.
P.S. I hear (from someone who's been in touch with his office) that Boris won't be coming to view it. Perhaps Carter needs to have a rethink.
P.P.S. EIDFZ posted the following: "I heard one year 2865 complaints were recieved in reference to noise ect, 2789 were from the same four people!!"
I don't know where you heard this chum but it is absolutely false. The complaints statistics are publicly available and I suggest you refer to them before posting in future. Manston generates a large number of complaints considering how little used it is.
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Heads up please!
Some snide remarks are being made and reported. Two posts have as a result been deleted by us.
If any of the regulars, or anyone for that matter, cannot control snide or abusive posts OR posts that you just want to make a childish comment about - then don't! Everyone is entitled to an opinion in a debate and anyone who doesn't like it stay out of the thread. THINK before post!
Forums are for ALL to enjoy not just those who think their opinions are superior to others.
Get the point? Good, now enjoy.
AA&R Mods.
Some snide remarks are being made and reported. Two posts have as a result been deleted by us.
If any of the regulars, or anyone for that matter, cannot control snide or abusive posts OR posts that you just want to make a childish comment about - then don't! Everyone is entitled to an opinion in a debate and anyone who doesn't like it stay out of the thread. THINK before post!
Forums are for ALL to enjoy not just those who think their opinions are superior to others.
Get the point? Good, now enjoy.
AA&R Mods.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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I haven't flown from Manston, come to that rarely fly anywhere other than long haul to Dubai and I can't see that coming to Manston.
However surely what Manston should be capitalising on is the parking to gate time? I only live 40 minutes from Gatwick however you need to allow an extra 40 minutes or so to park the car and get from the car to the terminal, and then its an extra 2 or 3 hours to queue to check in, pass through security etc.
So effectively I need to leave the house at least 3hours 20 before my flight departs, and ideally nearer 4 hours.
Manston is 1 hour 45 min away. Car parking to terminal is about 10 minutes, and how long to get through security? Looks like home to aircraft could be 3 hours, with a lot less hanging around!
Its the hanging around thats a nightmare when flying.
However surely what Manston should be capitalising on is the parking to gate time? I only live 40 minutes from Gatwick however you need to allow an extra 40 minutes or so to park the car and get from the car to the terminal, and then its an extra 2 or 3 hours to queue to check in, pass through security etc.
So effectively I need to leave the house at least 3hours 20 before my flight departs, and ideally nearer 4 hours.
Manston is 1 hour 45 min away. Car parking to terminal is about 10 minutes, and how long to get through security? Looks like home to aircraft could be 3 hours, with a lot less hanging around!
Its the hanging around thats a nightmare when flying.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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The complaints statistics are publicly available and I suggest you refer to them before posting in future. Manston generates a large number of complaints considering how little used it is.
Don't have the latest figures but . . . . here's the large number of complaints from the early part of last year.
In January - March 2007 there were 106 complaints from only 17 complainants. In April - June 2007 there were 252 complaints from 97 complainants. Not a single complaint from an Acol resident was registered in either period.
Somebody must have galavanised the troops into action between April and June
Don't have the latest figures but . . . . here's the large number of complaints from the early part of last year.
In January - March 2007 there were 106 complaints from only 17 complainants. In April - June 2007 there were 252 complaints from 97 complainants. Not a single complaint from an Acol resident was registered in either period.
Somebody must have galavanised the troops into action between April and June
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Comment from ChrisGR31
A fair comment re actual door to door times.
Southampton is indeed different to Manston, it also has stiff competition from Bournemouth but what I was suggesting was that a small operation would have a chance of success from MSE providing it was well funded and well managed. Dont forget the it is not necessarily being suggested that the aircraft or crews are based at MSE!!
For the final time I hope, not everyone that flies into LHR,STN and LGW either come from or go to Central London!!!!!!
There will always be complaints, dont forget we are talking about and airport with aircraft that make a noise!!!
MDIS
Southampton is indeed different to Manston, it also has stiff competition from Bournemouth but what I was suggesting was that a small operation would have a chance of success from MSE providing it was well funded and well managed. Dont forget the it is not necessarily being suggested that the aircraft or crews are based at MSE!!
For the final time I hope, not everyone that flies into LHR,STN and LGW either come from or go to Central London!!!!!!
There will always be complaints, dont forget we are talking about and airport with aircraft that make a noise!!!
MDIS
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Driving times etc
Everyone seems to be making too much of the journey times. For example, from here in Medway the journey times to Manston Gatwick and Stansted are very similar, whilst Heathrow is a pain and Luton a terrible pain. I have flown from Heathrow and Luton simply because there were flights going where I wanted when I wanted and at the price I wanted. If Manston or Southend or even Lydd had what people wanted they would be quite willing to undertake the extra journey. I have met people at Gatwick who have driven up from Gloucestershire or Devon or even flown down from Scotland just to get the flights they want so I cant see any problems there.
Also in my experience the presence of a railway station is of no consequence in most cases because it is very difficult to get a train for an early morning flight or to get home again after an evening arrival. Most passengers have to go via one of the central London stations which is the Achilles heel of the journey.
Also in my experience the presence of a railway station is of no consequence in most cases because it is very difficult to get a train for an early morning flight or to get home again after an evening arrival. Most passengers have to go via one of the central London stations which is the Achilles heel of the journey.
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Population Density
Since I normally attempt to refrain from subjective comment regarding Manston and its prospects, I thought it may be useful to have a more objective view of the catchment that is oft spoken about. I think it fair to say that anyone living in Kent could be said to be within the said area. According to the Kent County Council:
Quote "The most recent population data for Kent comes from the 2006 Mid Year Population Estimates produced by ONS, showing a total of 1,382,900 people. (1,634,600 if you include Medway Unitary Authority)."
Quote "The most recent population data for Kent comes from the 2006 Mid Year Population Estimates produced by ONS, showing a total of 1,382,900 people. (1,634,600 if you include Medway Unitary Authority)."
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I think OldGit is right to an extent. People will travel virtually any airport as long as the flight is going to where they want to go at a price they want to pay. Often that price is as low as possible although they may also go on whether they have heard of the carrier!
Personally I will also factor in the door to door time, and indeed the cost of parking etc but many don't.
Getting to an airport by train is inconvienent for most unless they are coming from the centre of the city it serves, or are on the mainline that serves that airport. So you might get the train to Gatwick if you are on a direct service to the airport, but if you have to change, driving becomes a more favourable option.
Incoming tourists don't have so much choice though, they either have to travel by train (or other public transport) or hire a car. So the benefit of good public transport depends on whether you are intending to mainly ship residents of the UK out, or tourists in.
Personally I will also factor in the door to door time, and indeed the cost of parking etc but many don't.
Getting to an airport by train is inconvienent for most unless they are coming from the centre of the city it serves, or are on the mainline that serves that airport. So you might get the train to Gatwick if you are on a direct service to the airport, but if you have to change, driving becomes a more favourable option.
Incoming tourists don't have so much choice though, they either have to travel by train (or other public transport) or hire a car. So the benefit of good public transport depends on whether you are intending to mainly ship residents of the UK out, or tourists in.
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I might be being pinickity but I really question whether all of Kent could be classed as a catchment area for Manston, considering some parts are 60+ miles from! Take Tunbridge Wells for example, Manston at 60 miles or Gatwick at 20 miles? I personally would not drive 60 miles to catch a flight if there was an airport 3 times closer!
I believe people are more willing to drive long distances to fly long haul. Take the example of Gatwick and the people from Gloucestershire or Devon. If you were flying long haul then this would be considering acceptable taking into account the lack of long haul service from nearby Bristol etc. However, would they be driving to get a flight to Spain when there are an abundance of Ryanair and easyJet services from nearby Bristol? Perhaps they did, but I'm just saying I personally don't think people would on the whole. Just my 2 cents!
Edit - out of boredom I have had a look at CAA publications regarding EUJet. Looking at the end of the document, some of the quotes from passengers from EUJet and whether they would use a small airline from a smaller airport before include -
“It would certainly influence using smaller companies again.”
“We think twice about using a smaller airline at a smaller airport.”
“Apart from this ruining the last couple of days of our holiday, we will seriously think hard
before booking flights through a small airline company”.
“We will seriously think hard before booking flights through a small airline company.”
“I will certainly think again before travelling with not-so-well established airlines.”
Perhaps the damage has been done for a new start up airline, unless an established carrier would be willing to have a go? The document also says 82% of EUJet's passengers came from Kent, perhaps putting to bed the claims Manston could operate as a viable London alternative?
I believe people are more willing to drive long distances to fly long haul. Take the example of Gatwick and the people from Gloucestershire or Devon. If you were flying long haul then this would be considering acceptable taking into account the lack of long haul service from nearby Bristol etc. However, would they be driving to get a flight to Spain when there are an abundance of Ryanair and easyJet services from nearby Bristol? Perhaps they did, but I'm just saying I personally don't think people would on the whole. Just my 2 cents!
Edit - out of boredom I have had a look at CAA publications regarding EUJet. Looking at the end of the document, some of the quotes from passengers from EUJet and whether they would use a small airline from a smaller airport before include -
“It would certainly influence using smaller companies again.”
“We think twice about using a smaller airline at a smaller airport.”
“Apart from this ruining the last couple of days of our holiday, we will seriously think hard
before booking flights through a small airline company”.
“We will seriously think hard before booking flights through a small airline company.”
“I will certainly think again before travelling with not-so-well established airlines.”
Perhaps the damage has been done for a new start up airline, unless an established carrier would be willing to have a go? The document also says 82% of EUJet's passengers came from Kent, perhaps putting to bed the claims Manston could operate as a viable London alternative?
Last edited by nickmanl; 21st Feb 2008 at 12:24.
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Nickmanl I think you are forgetting that distance driven has nothing to do with the front door to plane door time. If you are on the east side of Tunbridge Wells the quickest route to Gatwick will be up the A21 along the M25 and back down the M23, a lot further than 20 miles and fraught with the potential travel problems on the M25/M23. On the west side of Tunbridge Wells you have to get through East Grinstead which can be a real nightmare.
I live not far from Tunbridge Wells, on the sussex side and I reckon the front door to plane door times of Gatwick and Manston are pretty similar for me as mentioned in my post further up.
However I also appreciate that any service from Manston is actually unlikely to go where I want to go as I generally don't do longhaul, although am contemplating trips to Southern Ireland and/or Valencia this year.
My own suspicion would be that a few destinations flown by a well known low cost carrier would be a start, and may suceed. For new carrier to start up from scratch they would need huge amounts of publicity and to put up with low loads whilst they built a passenger base. As EUJet proved it can be done, but it takes money and a lot of it to do it. And of course EUJet failed for whatever reason.
I live not far from Tunbridge Wells, on the sussex side and I reckon the front door to plane door times of Gatwick and Manston are pretty similar for me as mentioned in my post further up.
However I also appreciate that any service from Manston is actually unlikely to go where I want to go as I generally don't do longhaul, although am contemplating trips to Southern Ireland and/or Valencia this year.
My own suspicion would be that a few destinations flown by a well known low cost carrier would be a start, and may suceed. For new carrier to start up from scratch they would need huge amounts of publicity and to put up with low loads whilst they built a passenger base. As EUJet proved it can be done, but it takes money and a lot of it to do it. And of course EUJet failed for whatever reason.
As EUJet proved it can be done
of course EUJet failed for whatever reason
End of story.
