CORK - 5

[en2r]

You sure RWY25/07 is being closed?

I think it might have to be closed if they want to sell the land bank. If it were still operational it would curtail development on the land and would reduce its value. Its not used much anyway, just by Aer Arann when the cross winds are too strong on 17/35 and on very rare occasions has been used by Aer Lingus(if they have a light load) for the same reason. It is however used for bomb scares.

I think this is a deeply disappointing day for Cork Airport. They're going to be in a Catch 22 situation. If they don't sell the land they will be in serious financial trouble for at least the next decade. If they do they will have absolutely no room for expansion and will be land locked! They just can't win! I think its grossly unfait that we're suffering because of the DAA's overspending (They planned and oversaw building of the new terminal so they were ultimately responsible for the huge overspend, the CAA had virtually nothing to do with the building of the new terminal). There is no way something like this would be let happen at Shannon yet they can get away with doing what they like where Cork is concerned, including blatent lying!

[CCR]

I can't see how they could shut RWY 7/25...it is the only runway that can be lengthened and into the prevailing wind! Now that they won't have money to develop the airport I guess there is no hope in that!! Seems like Cork has been screwed again

[Tom the Tenor]

Game, set and match to DAA and Shannon Airport. After next election will it be arise Senator Peter? Seamus Brennan, Micheal Martin and all of the rest of the gutless cabal of weak Cork TDs off the hook - a Haughey type vintage stroke by the Governement and the DAA - the bought and paid for Cork board has delivered for their masters.

It will indeed be one hundred and three years before Cork has an Atlantic flight now and Shannon's future is much safer into the future than ever before in spite of Open Skies. Some opportunity that has turned out to be for Cork Airport.

As for the possibility of the 40 acres being sold off and 25/07 being closed I imagine the flying clubs might object to that in the courts but as to their capability to engage costly Senior Counsel etc for lengthy periods that is another question. The flying clubs have been fairly regular users of runway 25/07 so it is not just the occasional RE or the even far rarer EI landing.

The sad thing about all this and something which the DAA and the CAA have been able to bank on is the Cork public have not had one whit of real interest in the airport and in a way Cork will be getting what it deserves - increased charges for this and that at regular intervals for well into the future to service the ol' debt.

Small airport - big heart -thick as 5h!t!

Watch it now as they go grovelling cap in hand to MOL for a few more routes - anything at all for a bit of distraction to make 'em look good in De Echo not to mention how busy the public relations companies will be - they can always go hide behind their skirts when the going gets tough.

[ryan2000]

Cork

CAA has no interest in extending 25/07 in the future, nor in extending 17/35 unless West Coast or Mid-West routes US become viable. Management believe a 1,000 ft extension to 17/35 will get aircraft as far as LAX or SFO. East coast operations can operate of the existing runway according to sources close to the board.

At present Cork can just about get with its existing stands. It simply must retain land for future expansion particularly any serious growth will come from based airlines.

[pfighter]

cork

these board members should hang there heads in shame ,a bunch of prks

[en2r]

Aer Lingus Winter timetable

Just been browsing the winter Aer Lingus timetable for Cork. Noticed a few changes over last winter.
-As previously reported Malaga will operate 5 weekly up to mid December when it will drop to 4 weekly
-Faro will operate 2 weekly until the end of November
-Amsterdam will be twice daily except for Saturdays when there will be no evening flight
-Birmingham will be 5 weekly (no flights on Tuesday or Saturday)
-Rome will be 3 weekly (TTS)
-Barcelona will be 4 weekly(MWFS)
-Paris will be 8 weekly (a second flight on a Thursday)

There is still gaps in the schedule. There is space for a UK route (or at a push a Brussels perhaps - I know Charlie Roy would love that!) to operate daily except for Saturday. Now Manchester hasn't been put on sale so it could be that or perhaps we will have a new route? I'd rate Edinburgh as the most likely option since EI already operate there from Dublin. I can't see them going onto Glasgow or Gatwick since Ryanair already operate those routes from Cork. Aer Arann on Edinburgh would be a much easier pushover! I don't know would they operate a UK route from Cork that doesn't already operate from Dublin?
Theres also a gap from the end of November when Faro finishes and also another gap when Malaga goes down to 4 weekly. This suggests perhaps a ski route such as Geneva starting at 2 weekly from the end of November and increasing to 3 weekly in mid December. This would tally with the skiing season which only begins around December.
Alternatively it could perhaps be Warsaw returning for the Christmas period. Christmas is the busiest period of the year for Polish routes so perhaps EI think its worth relaunching the route for the Christmas Peak?

[brian_dromey]

At the end of the day ORK should be able to finance this on its own. If the Cork area wants to keep international services at a world class airport facility, which ORK is for the most part, the we are going to have to pay for it. Cork is a miserable hole of a town, filthy dirty and NOTHING of much substance to attract tourists. Everyone in Cork wants everything but few are prepared to pay for it. The place is inward looking and only thinks in the negative. Its time to stop blaming politicians and say SNN would never have put up with it, how many marches did ye organise, how many rallies on RTE 6.1? Its time to put up or shut up lads. Stop moaning and get on with it.

I think GVA could be launched for the winter season, as you suggest and I think MAN will go into that daily ex Sat slot. Man seems to be doing quite well over the Summer season, so hopefully it will remain once again for the winter.

Brian.

[en2r]

Cork is a miserable hole of a town, filthy dirty and NOTHING of much substance to attract tourists.

Speaking as someone who lives in Cork city, I find that statement quite offensive. What about St. Finbarre's Cathedral, the old Cork Gaol, the Crawford and Glucksman Art Galleries. Within easy reach of the city are the famous Blarney Stone in Blarney, the Queenstown visitor centre in Cobh (last port of call for the Titanic), Fota House at Fota as well as the Jameson Distillery at Midleton. Cork had a litter problem in the past but that has improved hugely in the past few years.

I think MAN will go into that daily ex Sat slot. Man seems to be doing quite well over the Summer season, so hopefully it will remain once again for the winter

All other routes from last winter (besides Warsaw obviously) are now on sale, Manchester is not. Thats why I was speculating that it may be axed.

[brian_dromey]

Speaking as someone who lives in Cork city, I find that statement quite offensive. What about St. Finbarre's Cathedral, the old Cork Gaol, the Crawford and Glucksman Art Galleries. Within easy reach of the city are the famous Blarney Stone in Blarney, the Queenstown visitor centre in Cobh (last port of call for the Titanic), Fota House at Fota as well as the Jameson Distillery at Midleton. Cork had a litter problem in the past but that has improved hugely in the past few years.

Well having lived in Cork for 19 years before I moved away to college and now living away from Cork for almost two years but returning frequently I feel Im in a reasonably good position to say what I did. Cork has a few attractions, but is horrifically expensive. Cork is 100% absolutely filthy dirty the litter problem has not been resolved. Look at Oliver Plunkett street, its just been repaved and already its shamefully filthy. Shopping is limited in Cork and the surrounding area, there are a limited number of restaurants and bars, and all they are missing is balaclavas. Service is terrible across the board. I think if I visited Cork I would be sorely disappointed. Do we in Cork care? No. There is a "yeara tis grand" attitude around this town which is sickening and a lack of ambition vision and drive which is truly astounding.

Truly the airport is the best thing Cork has as well as one of the finest pieces of architecture in the area, along with the school of music and new City Hall. Hopefully today is the beginning of a new chapter in the history of Cork airport, and hopefully it can help Cork to grow and develop into the town it should and could be. Ultimately, if ORK does become a loss making entity the government will either have to pay up, or sell it off to the private sector. Neither of which is an awfully bad outcome.

[en2r]

Well having lived in Cork for 19 years before I moved away to college and now living away from Cork for almost two years but returning frequently I feel Im in a reasonably good position to say what I did. Cork has a few attractions, but is horrifically expensive. Cork is 100% absolutely filthy dirty the litter problem has not been resolved. Look at Oliver Plunkett street, its just been repaved and already its shamefully filthy. Shopping is limited in Cork and the surrounding area, there are a limited number of restaurants and bars, and all they are missing is balaclavas. Service is terrible across the board. I think if I visited Cork I would be sorely disappointed. Do we in Cork care? No. There is a "yeara tis grand" attitude around this town which is sickening and a lack of ambition vision and drive which is truly astounding.

You really don't seem to like Cork. I just wanted to say that your views aren't shared by me or anyone I know who lives in Cork. As I said the litter problem has improved greatly, even in the past two years. While Cork still has litter, I don't think it has any more than any other city. If you ever walk down a street in Dublin, there is a similiar amount of litter. As for shopping, what about Mahon Point? Its the biggest shopping centre in Ireland outside of Dublin. Cork is not horrifically expensive. I lived in Dublin for 4 months and EVERYTHING was a lot more expensive there.
If you don't like Cork thats fine but I have to say I'm proud of my home city!

[ASU.ORK]

The 25 Runway runs through the land bank which is earmarked to be sold.

The whole vote on the report stinks to hell. How can someone who has only attended 2 meetings yes 2 meetings in 3 years make an informed decision on the report without being involved in any debate or meeting in person and cast their vote from the States.
Or how can a person obstain from voting on the most important decision in the new boards history.

Increased Charges for one of the most expensive airports in Ireland are on the way, how else is an Airport which will definately have to borrow more money over the first couple of years to cover proposed capital investment and general costs going to run.

At the end of the day ORK should be able to finance this on its own. If the Cork area wants to keep international services at a world class airport facility, which ORK is for the most part, the we are going to have to pay for it. Cork is a miserable hole of a town, filthy dirty and NOTHING of much substance to attract tourists. Everyone in Cork wants everything but few are prepared to pay for it. The place is inward looking and only thinks in the negative. Its time to stop blaming politicians and say SNN would never have put up with it, how many marches did ye organise, how many rallies on RTE 6.1? Its time to put up or shut up lads. Stop moaning and get on with it.

Brian.

Brian operations in Cork will suffer how can an Airport who's firstly losing airlines servicing the airport 7 in the last 3 years since new board in place, secondly the percentage growth has dropped from double figures 3 years ago to an expected 5-6% for this year honestly finance itself. It is estimated that the debt will cost about 4-5 million a year to service, then take depreciation, operational costs etc. and you'll be seriously struggling to keep this within an estimated profit of 14-15 million before tax etc. Loans are going to be needed to facilate the year to year running of the airport. The Financial Wizard on the Board along with the Cx() have all but admitted that loans will have to be secured to keep the airport running.

Credit must be given to the Worker Directors on the Board for there effort in trying to get the board to reject the report. And Also to Mr. Alf Smiddy for his clear and uninfluenced vote against the report. The rest of the boards decisions were influenced if not by direct political means it was done by Joe Gantly().

Yes our government has shafted the people of Cork and Munster yet again. Some level playing field as promised....

[brian_dromey]

No, I dont have a problem with Cork, itself you'll have to excuse me for looking critically at my home city. I can assure you that compared to the likes of Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds city centers Cork is indeed filthy dirty and nothing short of an embarrassment, what's worse is that no one cares. Cork is completely apathetic to everything, there is a "twill do" attitude which has gone beyond a joke. I can assure you that I munch through 50 euro notes like I spend tenners in Leeds. 100 quid for a (rubbish night in a dingy club) night out in Cork versus £20 max (in a state of the art club with nationally/international DJ's).

At the end of the day, that is my experience of the City, which I always thought was the best place on the planet until living abroad thought me the place is far behind the times, totally overpriced. If you dont believe me "you should just try it sometime" in the words of P Flynn.

How is Cork going to pay its debts? How the hell should I know? No more than anyone else on here knows how the CAA would even begin to finance the debt. I would suggest more flights, but even these could canbalise existing markets.....like I said earlier, talk is cheap. If you felt so strongly why did you not organise a few rallies or marches?

Brian.

[Tom the Tenor]

With the economy slowing up the way it is I think an expected growth rate of 5 to 6 per cent at the airport for this year would be quite tolerable in some respects. Agreed, if Budapest, Warsaw and Krakow had not been lost there would be more space for a higher overall year end figure.

Whether the expected 5 or 6 per cent growth for this year is enough to help fund the loan repayments of 4 to 5 million Euros on the Euro 113 million debt is another question but if more borrowings have to be entered into just to fund day to day non capital operations that will be a siutation that will not be tolerated for too long and at that point the ugly monster on the other side of the door, that is, a proposed sell off to the private sector may come in to play? I should imagine that is what may be of most concern to the present staff working at Cork? It is hard to see the government providing any sort of comfort to airport staff in this regard in spite of whatever references are in the airport board's press release. The government are not going to go down that road at all!

Brian, if you think Cork is bad now or in the last 19 years that you speak of you should see what it was like around 30 years ago. It was like a graveyard with lights it was so depressing and as for litter I have had reason to be in Oliver Plunkett Street, Cork on three of the last four days and hand on heart it was pretty decent looking. Now, if you want to check litter out I should respectfully recommend that you take a look around some of the districts around north London and compare that with what you have seen in Cork and let us know then what you think.

Large amounts of capital both public and private have been invested in Cork over the last 10 years or so and most of these developments have served Cork well - the tunnel, the N25 ring road, the flyover at Kinsale Road Roundabout, the new maternity hospital, the massive transforming regeneration of Blackpool, the ongoing redevelopment of the city centre around Patrick Street, the latest being the demolition of the area between Academy Street and Patrick Street, the Coalquay development, the numerous new appartment and office blocks etc. If anything there is now a lack of green field spaces like parks in the city and suburbs.

Cork is getting there and I believe you are being a tad overcritical with your comments.

However, this is but a distraction to us to the issue of the airport and last night's decision by the Cork boards. Who gains most from Cork taking on Euro 113 million of debt? The Dublin Airport Authority and there is also a benefit to Shannon - Cork will have little cash available for more infrastructural growth with an eye on the future towards the Atlantic and snn will continue to be looked on as the prinicipal gateway in the south of the country for flights to America.

[Copenhagen]

All of this Cork Paranoia is simply pathetic.


One minute you complain that the DAA didnt put airbridges onto the airport - next you complain that they spent too much money - one minute you complain that the terminal wasnt constructed to allow an extra floor internally, next you complain that they spent too much money. Get your story straight.

Unlike Shannon You have a superb airport, with excellent facilities. Unlike Shannon you have a great route network, the envy of cities of its size accross europe.

How many active runways are there in

SNN
KIR
NOC
BHD

Why does cork need two runways?

Cork Airport if it wants to be independent needs to pay its way - it cant have everthing for nothing. It has to be run as a business, not always running back to mummy if they make a mistake. It either stays under Dublin, or becomes independent. Why does the ORK board (which you seem to think are worthless) deserve the terminal? Why isnt it privatised to the highest bidder? I guarantee you that the private sector would value the airport at more than €130m, and that they would use every bit of available land.

[ryan2000]

Cork Debt

The reality that is now sinking in is that Cork has a huge financial challenge ahead. All of the options will inevitably be looked at. The most painless one is to start an aggressive marketing campaign aimed at making Cork the first choice for people in South Leinster and much of Munster.

Too much business has been lost in recent years and the I.T. charters are also stagnant.

The 2nd more painful solution is to look at costs and compare them to other airports. I'm afraid the days of a job in a state airport being a well paid cushy number are at an end. I'm not referring here to the hard working staff in ASU departments and other frontline positions.

Some years ago Aerlingus pensioned off a whole tier of middle managment and the difference was hardly noticable.

It now appears that the Minister will not after all be in a position to underwrite the financial position of the board according to local media reports.

This will inevitably mean that privatisation will loom if the above mentioned measures don't work.

[Copenhagen]

The minister shouldnt underwrite the Cork performance.

[fivejuliet]

Copenhagen

Unlike Shannon You have a superb airport

I demand you retract that comment

[Copenhagen]

The terminal extension in Shannon is superb, but the original boarding gates and departures / arrivals halls are in need for renovation, as are the air bridges. What I'm saying is that Cork is a superb piece of Airport infrastructure, probably the best terminal in Ireland, and for a city of its size the best airport in Europe.

I just wish that Tom would realise what a bargain the terminal is for €133m, but then Tom wants Taj Mahal (complete with 10 airbridges) and doesnt want to pay for it. If they can sell off landbanks they have an excellent future, even if it is at the expense of GA getting second priority. As for the runway being extended - get a life - even DUB cant justify a runway extension.

Unlike Brian, Cork is a great city to visit, and probably the only large town in Ireland where you still get an Irish Welcome.

I know the minister said that ORK would become debt free - but I presume that Ireland is the same as Billund - foolish to believe a politician.

[en2r]

If they can sell off landbanks they have an excellent future, even if it is at the expense of GA getting second priority.

Its not just GA that will suffer. The landbank is where the cargo village was supposed to be built. The cargo village was supposed to be built at the same time as the terminal, but was postponed due to lack of funds. Its still meant to be built, but if the land is sold there will be nowhere to put it!

[Copenhagen]

So the cargo village wasnt built due to lack of funds
Air Bridges werent added due to lack of funds
Interior wasnt overspecced due to lack of funds

Cork needs to make their mind up - one minute you state that the place was over specified and too expensive for the region - then you demand cargo villages and airbridges and the DAA are penny pinching.

Cork cant have its cake and eat it. You want runway extensions, you want airbridges, you want exec jet facilities, you want Cat3, you want cargo villages - but you want someone else to pay for it.

Credibilty gap alert. Cork Airport isnt a council house.