HEATHROW
Paxing All Over The World
blackace Thank you for contributing a most interesting sidelight on your work, of which most of us know little.
Whilst some in this forum are attacking anything that moves at EGLL, I think that the regular traveller wants to criticise the BAA mgmt for their lack of communication on the day and at the time of need. Since the infrastructure is 'fronted' by the carrier, BAA are often able to hide behind them.
One of the hallmarks of modern companies is not providing cogent and timely information when things go wrong. In days gone by, manual intervention could often save the day and you have helpfully told us why that is not possible in this case. Had BAA given more information and explanation, then customers might not be so aggrieved - but I doubt it. The accumulated grief of paxing through LHR means that BAA have used every last drop of customer tolerance.
Thanks again for telling us the real information.
Whilst some in this forum are attacking anything that moves at EGLL, I think that the regular traveller wants to criticise the BAA mgmt for their lack of communication on the day and at the time of need. Since the infrastructure is 'fronted' by the carrier, BAA are often able to hide behind them.
One of the hallmarks of modern companies is not providing cogent and timely information when things go wrong. In days gone by, manual intervention could often save the day and you have helpfully told us why that is not possible in this case. Had BAA given more information and explanation, then customers might not be so aggrieved - but I doubt it. The accumulated grief of paxing through LHR means that BAA have used every last drop of customer tolerance.
Thanks again for telling us the real information.
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Perhaps it won't be as bad in Terminal 5.
I recall hearing some time ago that British Airways were putting in their own outbound baggage system, paying for it and running it themselves.
So it'll be just fine then, and with back up and contingency like no other.
This would seem to hold up as the BAA website for T5 only refers to the arrivals baggage carousels as ones they have put in.
I recall hearing some time ago that British Airways were putting in their own outbound baggage system, paying for it and running it themselves.
So it'll be just fine then, and with back up and contingency like no other.
This would seem to hold up as the BAA website for T5 only refers to the arrivals baggage carousels as ones they have put in.
Blackace,
Passengers (and airlines) pay for the system to work. It would therefore be fair for BAA to pay back all the bits of the payment they receive for the service they have failed to provide. Alternatively, make the investment in back up systems, but stop swindling the customers! Because that's what BAA are doing - charging their customers and then failing to deliver the services they have charged for.
Passengers (and airlines) pay for the system to work. It would therefore be fair for BAA to pay back all the bits of the payment they receive for the service they have failed to provide. Alternatively, make the investment in back up systems, but stop swindling the customers! Because that's what BAA are doing - charging their customers and then failing to deliver the services they have charged for.
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FAO Blackace
I wrote this about a major ATC systems failure a few years ago.
Plus ca change, plus la meme chose:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...138#post499138
So what bit didn't happen with your changes to T4 Baggage system?
Plus ca change, plus la meme chose:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...138#post499138
So what bit didn't happen with your changes to T4 Baggage system?
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Blackace
You say "Not a friking clue about the real world."
In the real world, service providers are expected deliver what they promise.
With the unique security regs, a large airline who seems to be constantly under the threat of strike action and an airport operator which is frequently cited as failing to deliver appropriate service levels, London is becoming top of the list of places to avoid changing flights.
The chickens will come home to roost and the UK is p*ssing away its competitive advantage as the gateway in/out of Europe, thanks to an attitude that the massess will have to accept what they are given.
As 411A would say, it ain't so and some folks will only find out the hard way.
You say "Not a friking clue about the real world."
In the real world, service providers are expected deliver what they promise.
With the unique security regs, a large airline who seems to be constantly under the threat of strike action and an airport operator which is frequently cited as failing to deliver appropriate service levels, London is becoming top of the list of places to avoid changing flights.
The chickens will come home to roost and the UK is p*ssing away its competitive advantage as the gateway in/out of Europe, thanks to an attitude that the massess will have to accept what they are given.
As 411A would say, it ain't so and some folks will only find out the hard way.
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Imagine if this had happened to Ryanair at STN, Mr O'Leary would have made Ryanair's feelings on the matter known!!
The BAA website is also talking crap, what they say below isn't correct.
BAA T5 Website:
"We've designed a world-class baggage handling system for Terminal 5 to ensure your bags get from aircraft to carousel as efficiently as possible."
BAA have nothing to do with getting the luggage from aircraft to arrivals belt for arrivals as they state, that is BA's job!! The world class system for doing that is called a baggage tug and dollies!!!
Back to the topic in hand, I too hope that BAA aren't p***ing away the UK's competitive aviation market by being useless at running LHR, or any other airport. Perhaps the people who run Bluewater should come and run Heathrow!!
The BAA website is also talking crap, what they say below isn't correct.
BAA T5 Website:
"We've designed a world-class baggage handling system for Terminal 5 to ensure your bags get from aircraft to carousel as efficiently as possible."
BAA have nothing to do with getting the luggage from aircraft to arrivals belt for arrivals as they state, that is BA's job!! The world class system for doing that is called a baggage tug and dollies!!!
Back to the topic in hand, I too hope that BAA aren't p***ing away the UK's competitive aviation market by being useless at running LHR, or any other airport. Perhaps the people who run Bluewater should come and run Heathrow!!
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The transfer bag is already airside, having been checked at an airport where the system works (unlike LHR), has just come off one plane, and gets put on another. So what has the ban on transfer luggage got to do with "security" today ?
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LHR to be avoided
Just to add to the previous. Totally Agree. The aviation company I work for based in the US and its sales people have long held the view that LHR is to be avoided at all costs. Not just T4 or BA - the entire airport. The BAA own it and run it so the blame lies with the BAA. The general view being " They could`nt organise a p**s up in a brewery " I have never been able to defend it or excuse it. Its a 3rd World airport. God Bless all the US carriers straining to launch out of LHR after 30th Mar with Open Skies......mind you the alternative or existing airport being LGW is not much better than LHR. Toss a Coin ! Guess what ? BAA runs both. 
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It's about time there was a passenger's charter in which incompetence of this level counted as a criminal offence. At the very least, BAA should be made to compensate passengers - say to twice the value of their ticket. And have a limit placed on how much they can increase their charges.
And other similar demands for compensation.
As far as I know a compensation regime already exists under the existing pricing controls which runs to 31st March. BAA pay - I think to the airlines not the pax 
-a rebate for failing to meet certain service standards which I would assume includes the availability of the baggage system. Or is it just when shops are not open? 
So I think the airlines trouser the rebate which no doubt take ages to agree, probably at least a year in arrears and the poor pax is just left out of pocket and with a sour taste in their mouths.
-a rebate for failing to meet certain service standards which I would assume includes the availability of the baggage system. Or is it just when shops are not open? So I think the airlines trouser the rebate which no doubt take ages to agree, probably at least a year in arrears and the poor pax is just left out of pocket and with a sour taste in their mouths.The CAA are currently consulting on the price controls for the 5 years from April and as far as I can find out are proposing the following
Increasing the maximum rebates for failing to meet service standards from three per cent to seven per cent of total airport charges revenues
Raising the standards that the airport will be required to achieve to avoid penalties under the service quality rebates scheme (in particular, in respect of security queues)
Broadening the scope of the service quality rebates scheme to cover additional key areas that were identified by the Competition Commission - not sure what these are.
Strengthening the use of capital investment triggers for agreed project milestones, where failure to meet a milestone would result in significantly greater financial penalties than at present.
There is also a proposal to reward BAA if they exceed standards, so I guess they won't be factoring too much income from this stream - unless the targets are unrealistically low. But I doubt this will be the case as the airlines and AUC have all been asked to comment.
- unless the targets are unrealistically low. But I doubt this will be the case as the airlines and AUC have all been asked to comment.Suzeman
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BAA supposedly has service quality rebates. If they fail to meet their targets they are fined - Atleast that it what is supposed to happen but they have somehow managed to get an exemption from paying out any money!
I, unfortunately, have the experience of having worked at T4 as a senior operational manager for BAA and know full well that much of the figures and data relating to security and customer service is falsified!!!!!! I left after discovering that there were senior managers forging official documents. These managers know nothing about aviation, air travel or airports and are all from a retail background. The company does not give a damn about its customers or staff anymore and standards are continuing to slip for all airport users!
Whilst the general public continues to lack confidence in LHR and BAA, Britains airports are never going to improve and will continue to decline day by day. Britain's airports and BAA are the equivalent of what happened to our railways and British Rail.
I think I'm going to go on driving, rail and cruise holidays from now on!
EagleStar
I, unfortunately, have the experience of having worked at T4 as a senior operational manager for BAA and know full well that much of the figures and data relating to security and customer service is falsified!!!!!! I left after discovering that there were senior managers forging official documents. These managers know nothing about aviation, air travel or airports and are all from a retail background. The company does not give a damn about its customers or staff anymore and standards are continuing to slip for all airport users!
Whilst the general public continues to lack confidence in LHR and BAA, Britains airports are never going to improve and will continue to decline day by day. Britain's airports and BAA are the equivalent of what happened to our railways and British Rail.
I think I'm going to go on driving, rail and cruise holidays from now on!
EagleStar
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Suzeman, Eaglestar
BAA DO pay service quality rebates at Heathrow and Gatwick - monthly. They are, of course, paid to the airlines (on a passengers carried basis ) - how could they possible pay the rebates to passengers individually ?
Only problem here is that the outbound baggage system is not included in the SQR scheme. This is known to both the CAA and Competition Commision, who made the final decision regarding what's in and what's out.
For reference the SQR scheme includes availability of stands, airbridges, pier service, FEGP, escalators, lifts, pax conveyors, security queuing, arrivals reclaim, cleanliness, flight information, wayfinding and departure lounge seat availability.
BAA DO pay service quality rebates at Heathrow and Gatwick - monthly. They are, of course, paid to the airlines (on a passengers carried basis ) - how could they possible pay the rebates to passengers individually ?
Only problem here is that the outbound baggage system is not included in the SQR scheme. This is known to both the CAA and Competition Commision, who made the final decision regarding what's in and what's out.
For reference the SQR scheme includes availability of stands, airbridges, pier service, FEGP, escalators, lifts, pax conveyors, security queuing, arrivals reclaim, cleanliness, flight information, wayfinding and departure lounge seat availability.
>For reference the SQR scheme includes availability of stands, airbridges, pier service, FEGP, escalators, lifts, pax conveyors, security queuing, arrivals reclaim, cleanliness, flight information, wayfinding and departure lounge seat availability.<
Then either BAA must be paying through the nose or the required standards are so low that they are meaningless. Meantime, the poor passengers are being swindled by having to pay for services they don't get. Anywhere else, this would lead to criminal charges.....Why should I have to pay to stand in line for 10 minutes because the Xray operator in T4 gets up and walks away and management/supervision is so useless and inadequate that they allow the queue to be stood there, not moving, for 10 minutes?
Then either BAA must be paying through the nose or the required standards are so low that they are meaningless. Meantime, the poor passengers are being swindled by having to pay for services they don't get. Anywhere else, this would lead to criminal charges.....Why should I have to pay to stand in line for 10 minutes because the Xray operator in T4 gets up and walks away and management/supervision is so useless and inadequate that they allow the queue to be stood there, not moving, for 10 minutes?
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Radeng - There are some shortcomings to the scheme in my view, such as the weighting and amount payable being about the same for long security queues as it is for stand availability, airbridges and pier service.
The other issues are that there is a maximum annual amount at risk, and the number of times the operator can fail is also capped, i.e. if the maximum amount payable for failing to provide a certain standard on a particular measure is reached in 7 months, then failure to reach the standard on any of the remaining 5 months incurs no financial penalty whatsoever, so not much of an incentive there ! ( only reputational and that seems not to bother too many people, and is shot anyway ! ).
The other point is that there are specific times in the day when the service standards apply, these tend to be the peak times, and according to the CAA document I have (May 2003) covering the current 5 year period ending March 2008, for T4 this would be "security waiting time to be less than 10 minutes on at least 95% of occasions checked" and the "core time periods over which performance shall be measured are 09:00 - 11:00 and 19:00 - 21:00".
You're all clever enough to draw some conclusions from that.......
The other issues are that there is a maximum annual amount at risk, and the number of times the operator can fail is also capped, i.e. if the maximum amount payable for failing to provide a certain standard on a particular measure is reached in 7 months, then failure to reach the standard on any of the remaining 5 months incurs no financial penalty whatsoever, so not much of an incentive there ! ( only reputational and that seems not to bother too many people, and is shot anyway ! ).
The other point is that there are specific times in the day when the service standards apply, these tend to be the peak times, and according to the CAA document I have (May 2003) covering the current 5 year period ending March 2008, for T4 this would be "security waiting time to be less than 10 minutes on at least 95% of occasions checked" and the "core time periods over which performance shall be measured are 09:00 - 11:00 and 19:00 - 21:00".
You're all clever enough to draw some conclusions from that.......
Woofrey,
I'd say that there a a LOT of shortcomings in the scheme! There shouldn't be any cap on how much the operator has to pay, but more importantly, the people who eventually pay for the service they don't get (i.e. passengers) should get their money back. As it is, it seems basically a government sponsored swindle.
I'd say that there a a LOT of shortcomings in the scheme! There shouldn't be any cap on how much the operator has to pay, but more importantly, the people who eventually pay for the service they don't get (i.e. passengers) should get their money back. As it is, it seems basically a government sponsored swindle.
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Breakup of BAA
Arn't the monopolies commission (or some similar body) not looking at the BAA's monopoly position at the UK's major airports right now ? The sooner they break the monster up the better: LHR, LGW and STN all under seperate ownership and competing with each other. Up in my neck of the woods, GLA and EDI start competing as well. Situations like this at T4 wont help BAA's defence and so it might be worth the pain in the long run if this helps to dismember the dinosaur.
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Blackace - I think your attitude to this issue is regretable. You're right nobody died. However you claim to well paid - great, that suggests you have a sense of professionalism. In the real world of software things are tested. In the real world of software you manage risk and don't let 2 different suppliers change 2 things at the same time. T5 systems have been tested for month or years in some cases. Why didn't the changes to T4 get some decent testing? Does this sound professional to you?
Were the changes being made early in readiness for the Skyteam people moving into T4? If so, I hope BA sue both the BAA and the suppliers for the consequential loss they've inflicted on BA and more importantly the customers. You'd all deserve it.
CB
Were the changes being made early in readiness for the Skyteam people moving into T4? If so, I hope BA sue both the BAA and the suppliers for the consequential loss they've inflicted on BA and more importantly the customers. You'd all deserve it.
CB
If the problem was cased by poor engineering, then the engineer in charge should fall on his sword. Otherwise, he's being unethical. Yes, us engineers DO have a code of ethics, whcih is more than can apparently be said for BAA management.
Sir Thomas Bouch is a good example of what should happen.
Sir Thomas Bouch is a good example of what should happen.
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I think whoever operates LHR, BAA or not, would have or will continue to experience the same problems. All caused by squeezing too many flights into an airport that was full to capacity many years ago, so not surprising that with the slightest hitch, whether it be enhanced security, baggage breakdown, strong winds, fog etc etc there is just no flexibilty available to manage each situation with effective contingency plans without major disruption. Airlines see LHR as a big money maker and I'm sure put much pressure on BAA to get access, so it seems like first priority is to obtain runway slots and fingers crossed that the rest of the operation works, so in my view it's BAA, airlines, schedulers and Government all to blame for the mess.
A380 ops
I have noticed this comment elsewhere on pprune
"Whilst the A380 will mostly use 27L/09R, due to the proximity of the stands it will use. It can also use 27R.
Have a look at the A380 taxiway charts found in the UK AIP under LHR"
Is this correct? Could the A380 be stranded -unable to use 09L?
"Whilst the A380 will mostly use 27L/09R, due to the proximity of the stands it will use. It can also use 27R.
Have a look at the A380 taxiway charts found in the UK AIP under LHR"
Is this correct? Could the A380 be stranded -unable to use 09L?