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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 20th Apr 2019, 20:37
  #6161 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 268
Recruitment is going flat out at the moment, the problem is too little too late. Unfortunately those previously in charge of pilot resources ran down pilot numbers to save money and it's coming back to bite now. I'm sure when the next recession hits they'll be biting the hands off those that want to go part time.....
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Old 2nd May 2019, 21:03
  #6162 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: The North
Posts: 29
Anyone know how often they recruit experienced crew or when they're likely to re-open recruitment? Not BACF, mainline.

Cheers!
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Old 2nd May 2019, 21:37
  #6163 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: TBC
Posts: 590
Is it possible to have rough timeframes for being able to achieve a couple of weekends off each month, for each seat in each fleet? I know it’s a big ask and not very representative without knowing how much future recruitment there would be, but it would be useful to guesstimate the sort of choices you’d have to make for your lifestyle.

I look at a fixed pattern roster and see how many weekends there are off, and then think how tempting BA is that with time served, you can bid to not work any... until your next move! I can’t work out which is preferable; having some off, but having that pattern forever, or the snakes & ladders situation of a seniority list with fleet/seat moves. I was pretty staggered to read on here, and hear from friends how rare a weekend off is in the early days. Obvious when you think about it, but still. A close friend who joined at the start of the latest recruitment wave gets nearly every weekend off on SH. But if he wants to upgrade, or go LH...

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Old 3rd May 2019, 07:38
  #6164 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,856
Weekend working and the whole rostering/bidding system is a very controversial issue at the moment.

Whilst you may get best guesses from some on whereabouts on a seniority list you need to be to get a chance of getting a certain number of weekends off e.g. - "A3XX, 25% from the top, get every other W/E off" I'm not sure anyone can give you a definitive timescales in terms of “X months" or “Y years" simply because your rate of movement up a list depends on all sorts of unknowns.

Just for the sake of overview I'll offer that there are lots of grumbles from the Junior and not so junior on both Longhaul and Shorthaul that getting weekends off under JSS is difficult, and guaranteeing specific weekends free is problematic for almost everybody, regardless of seniority, unless they resort to using Golden days ( 6 per year) qnd/or leave or Duty Free Weeks.

Last edited by wiggy; 3rd May 2019 at 11:39.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 15:45
  #6165 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: TBC
Posts: 590
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it and understand the difficulties.

I don’t have an offer or anything, but wanted to be as informed as possible should one come my way in the future.

Last edited by Gingerbread Man; 3rd May 2019 at 22:19.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 16:59
  #6166 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 860
Your seniority will increase more rapidly on short haul (having said that Iíve been in nearly 3 and a half years now and still havenít quite cracked the top 50% on the Airbus (LHR) despite the 700+ pilot feast of recruitment behind). Stated before here but 50% is the rough watershed moment on any status list. You may well get the odd weekend below that figure but theyíll be rare. Otherwise if youíre bottom 50% on any list expect to work every weekend. On Long Haul fleets where itís going to take you at least 10 years to crack the top 50% that means youíll be working every weekend outside of leave for over ten years. If you have a young family at home thatís going to be a major stressor. IMHO itís an untenable situation. When one of the former Balpa P&P reps has already conceded privately that seniority is ripe for legal challenge itís surely only a matter of time?

(BTW I stress Iím not advocating that course of action but it would not surprise me one little bit the way things are going).
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Old 3rd May 2019, 17:01
  #6167 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,856
Originally Posted by Gingerbread Man View Post
Thanks for the reply.

You're welcome, not sure how much use the advice really was but as Rex B has said rostering under JSS seems to be a major stressor for many at the moment, most especially for many at the bottom.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 18:31
  #6168 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: U.K.
Posts: 219
Whats the situation with the BA BALPA pilots that hit the news with the racism email stuff?
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Old 3rd May 2019, 19:48
  #6169 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London
Posts: 120
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Stated before here but 50% is the rough watershed moment on any status list. You may well get the odd weekend below that figure but theyíll be rare. Otherwise if youíre bottom 50% on any list expect to work every weekend. On Long Haul fleets where itís going to take you at least 10 years to crack the top 50% that means youíll be working every weekend outside of leave for over ten years.
While acknowledging that JSS is FAR from perfect this isn't entirely accurate. I'm 60% ish on the 787 and I have been getting weekends off no problem. And going to the places I want to go to. I've been in 8 years so I guess your 10 to 50% is about right though.

That said, the bottom of some fleets (certainly 777/320) looks pretty unpleasant. What remains to be seen is what, if any, effect the tripling of weekend points has on the availability of weekends off. Personally, I will definitely try to work at least a couple of weekends a month because I absolutely don't want to do more reserve.
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Old 4th May 2019, 16:37
  #6170 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 39
Posts: 469
The tripping of weekend points will have little effect in my opinion. What is needed is for weekend points to actually count towards weekends off. That looks like itís in the pipeline. I am no fan of the seniority based rostering but with some mechanisms built in to stop the abuse of the system it is probably one I would keep. It is not right that junior guys are working 3-4 days a month more to achieve the same credit.

Weekends are over rated. I am off today and itís a nightmare, every man and his dog is out. Occasionally itís nice to get the day off that you need though. Back to work for the rest of the weekend though
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Old 4th May 2019, 16:42
  #6171 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by bex88 View Post
The tripping of weekend points will have little effect in my opinion. What is needed is for weekend points to actually count towards weekends off. That looks like itís in the pipeline. I am no fan of the seniority based rostering but with some mechanisms built in to stop the abuse of the system it is probably one I would keep. It is not right that junior guys are working 3-4 days a month more to achieve the same credit.

Weekends are over rated. I am off today and itís a nightmare, every man and his dog is out. Occasionally itís nice to get the day off that you need though. Back to work for the rest of the weekend though
do you have kids ? Or a wife/gf that works 9-5 ?
If so, not having weekends off can be very damaging in the long run
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Old 4th May 2019, 17:09
  #6172 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 684
i personally think seniority works for some things, but not others. For instance, I think the points system we utilise for leave works very fairly. If you bid for unpopular leave periods you build up enough points such that you can bid for popular leave periods and expect to get them.

Similarly, I think seniority coupled with the freeze periods after a successful move, works well with PRIAM bidding for fleet and status.

I am not sure how well seniority works for bidding for monthly work though. A bidding system should exist, whereby pilots get some say over when they want to work and the kind of work theyíd prefer, but the level of difference that being senior or junior makes is currently ridiculous with JSS. Bidline at least created lines of work in a generally fair work distribution, and you had to pick one that had what you wanted, but more often than not had something you werenít so keen on in order to get it. That meant the senior pilot could be happy they got the line they wanted, whilst the junior guy wasnít being well and truly shafted. Now it is very much the case that the senior pilots pick just what they want and the junior guys end up getting shafted. Generally people want to work as little as possible, so the senior guys achieve that, whilst the junior guys have as many trips as possible squeezed onto their lines. Then they get global constraints and crew repair to mess with their bid so that they can have even more work squeezed in. Couple that with the fact the junior guys are paid less, and it really isnít a fair system at all.

A points system for working weekends needs to be points for avoiding working weekends, not for avoiding reserve. The amount of reserve the junior guys have to do is already way more than what the senior guys have to do. It wonít deter the senior guys from avoiding weekend work. Similarly with trips, there should be a requirement for the system to get everyone as close as possible to the average credit per trip over the year. Junior long haul pilots doing 50% more reports than senior pilots is wrong.
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Old 4th May 2019, 17:47
  #6173 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Coast to Coast...
Posts: 151
Probably a very ignorant question but how hard can it be to put to vote the following concept?

Seniority rules for only 50% worth of weekend work. The other 50% is random.
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Old 4th May 2019, 18:09
  #6174 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Runcorn,Cheshire,England
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator View Post
Probably a very ignorant question but how hard can it be to put to vote the following concept?

Seniority rules for only 50% worth of weekend work. The other 50% is random.
Because some some of us worked every weekend when we were junior too. Itís not a JSS problem, it was the same with bidline too. Iím sorry, but BA is seniority driven, and it takes time to get the rewards. If you want everything now, youíve joined the wrong airline.
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Old 4th May 2019, 19:02
  #6175 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 684
I donít think anyone wants everything now, and youíre wrong, being junior under JSS is not the same as being junior under bidline back when you or I were junior. Not even close.
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Old 4th May 2019, 19:18
  #6176 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,856
Originally Posted by 3Greens View Post
Because some some of us worked every weekend when we were junior too. It’s not a JSS problem, it was the same with bidline too.

Agreed, and I'm afraid I'm going to be controversial GS-Alpha because I certainly do remember working every weekend outside of leave for well over 6 months, maybe a year, as a junior Long Haul P1- Bidine, Blindline holder. The only solution I could find was to transition to the Aspirational part time contract....FWIW I still work most weekends in a Full Time Month and of course clobber a weekend during a Part Time Month...IMHO that goes with the territory to some extent but there were some very naive expectations being expressed in the run up to the introduction in JSS, such as " I won't have to work weekends anymore" from someone who had been in the company just over a year..

That said I'm not of the opiion it is fair to inflict perpetual weekend working on the junior, I really am not..

As for the new weekend points system...I think it was set up to make it appear at least something was being done by offering some sort of incentive.... but the link to Reserve Vulnerability rather than weekend work vulnerability was done because (IMHO) the company will be very reluctant to add another clashing/blocking tool by allowing points to be swapped for weekends off.. Given how much BA hates people being able to clash/block work ( part of the reason Bidline went)I was pleasantly surprised that BALPA managed to negotiate the Golden Days....
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Old 4th May 2019, 21:36
  #6177 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 684
Back in the day, junior pilots did indeed tend to do low credit two man trips over weekends, plus some time assignable days to get them somewhere near a credit protected CAP. Under JSS, junior pilots are doing low credit trips over weekends, plus a couple more trips. 6 long haul trips in a month did not happen for junior pilots in days of old. Weekend working is to be expected because two sevenths of our work is over weekends. However it is wrong that senior pilots can do 4 trips with time in the bunk to help with the fatigue, whilst junior pilots are doing 6 trips because the credit system deems that to be the same amount of work.
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Old 4th May 2019, 21:51
  #6178 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 84
Originally Posted by TheAirMission View Post
Whats the situation with the BA BALPA pilots that hit the news with the racism email stuff?
Idiot alert 🙄
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Old 5th May 2019, 06:38
  #6179 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,856
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
Back in the day, junior pilots did indeed tend to do low credit two man trips over weekends, plus some time assignable days to get them somewhere near a credit protected CAP. Under JSS, junior pilots are doing low credit trips over weekends, plus a couple more trips. 6 long haul trips in a month did not happen for junior pilots in days of old. Weekend working is to be expected because two sevenths of our work is over weekends. However it is wrong that senior pilots can do 4 trips with time in the bunk to help with the fatigue, whilst junior pilots are doing 6 trips because the credit system deems that to be the same amount of work.
I thought we were starting on occasions to see to six trips a month on some lines in relatively recent "days of old" under Bidline and Roster assign/FA but I'm probably wrong.

Obviously you need some way of quantifying work done, but doing it by perhaps simply by looking at number of reports ex-base would open up a whole new can of worms.; on the T7 for example if you go down that road the senior might opt for, say, 5 or 6 TLV 2 day trips, per month, leaving them lots of days off, whilst OTOH the junior would struggle to fill their lines with the longer trips...and how for example do you propose to quantify the single report at base 9 day SIN/SYD/SIN which is on the T7? That can be a real nasty in terms of fatigue and funnily enough often doesn't go massively senior in the bidding, either under Bidline or JSS...

I'd agree "something must be done" to alleviate the problems some are facing but I'm not sure what the solution is, perhaps seeding junior rosters with a "heavy trip"? That of course would takes us back to something that was done in those "days of old...." and back to a fairness element of a system that many people seemed to be very unhappy with and voted to get rid of.

I suspect ultimately the solution lies in addressing the amount of "output" the company thinks is reasonable, there is only so much that can be gained by tinkering with JSS.

Last edited by wiggy; 5th May 2019 at 07:06.
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Old 5th May 2019, 06:54
  #6180 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Runcorn,Cheshire,England
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
I donít think anyone wants everything now, and youíre wrong, being junior under JSS is not the same as being junior under bidline back when you or I were junior. Not even close.
how so then? Because your post made me doubt myself so I had a look at my logbook from 1999 when I joined. Seems very similar actually. Every weekend worked. 4 reserves a year. 790 hours. And 5 east coasts a month the norm. Few months with
5 trips and two sims.
Took me about 3 years to achieve a couple of weekends a month off. Average hours were maybe a tad less I grant you that. But not a huge amount.
We ahve only had 4 JSS months so Iíd say itís too early to make a massive call on it. Although, Iím not sure I agree with you when you say thereís a massive difference in what the junior are doing now. I think we tend to look back on careers with rose tinted glasses. As said above, a quick trawl on iBid of the last year reveals quite a few lines with 6 trips due FA on them.
i do however think there needs to be a limit on work done though. 5 LH 3 month is probably the limit imo. Unfortunately, BA have found they can sweat the assets so I donít see it changing soon.

Last edited by 3Greens; 5th May 2019 at 07:12.
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