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Old 4th May 2019, 19:18
  #6241 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,311
Originally Posted by 3Greens View Post
Because some some of us worked every weekend when we were junior too. It’s not a JSS problem, it was the same with bidline too.

Agreed, and I'm afraid I'm going to be controversial GS-Alpha because I certainly do remember working every weekend outside of leave for well over 6 months, maybe a year, as a junior Long Haul P1- Bidine, Blindline holder. The only solution I could find was to transition to the Aspirational part time contract....FWIW I still work most weekends in a Full Time Month and of course clobber a weekend during a Part Time Month...IMHO that goes with the territory to some extent but there were some very naive expectations being expressed in the run up to the introduction in JSS, such as " I won't have to work weekends anymore" from someone who had been in the company just over a year..

That said I'm not of the opiion it is fair to inflict perpetual weekend working on the junior, I really am not..

As for the new weekend points system...I think it was set up to make it appear at least something was being done by offering some sort of incentive.... but the link to Reserve Vulnerability rather than weekend work vulnerability was done because (IMHO) the company will be very reluctant to add another clashing/blocking tool by allowing points to be swapped for weekends off.. Given how much BA hates people being able to clash/block work ( part of the reason Bidline went)I was pleasantly surprised that BALPA managed to negotiate the Golden Days....
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Old 4th May 2019, 21:36
  #6242 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 559
Back in the day, junior pilots did indeed tend to do low credit two man trips over weekends, plus some time assignable days to get them somewhere near a credit protected CAP. Under JSS, junior pilots are doing low credit trips over weekends, plus a couple more trips. 6 long haul trips in a month did not happen for junior pilots in days of old. Weekend working is to be expected because two sevenths of our work is over weekends. However it is wrong that senior pilots can do 4 trips with time in the bunk to help with the fatigue, whilst junior pilots are doing 6 trips because the credit system deems that to be the same amount of work.
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Old 4th May 2019, 21:51
  #6243 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 74
Originally Posted by TheAirMission View Post
Whats the situation with the BA BALPA pilots that hit the news with the racism email stuff?
Idiot alert 🙄
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Old 5th May 2019, 06:38
  #6244 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
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Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
Back in the day, junior pilots did indeed tend to do low credit two man trips over weekends, plus some time assignable days to get them somewhere near a credit protected CAP. Under JSS, junior pilots are doing low credit trips over weekends, plus a couple more trips. 6 long haul trips in a month did not happen for junior pilots in days of old. Weekend working is to be expected because two sevenths of our work is over weekends. However it is wrong that senior pilots can do 4 trips with time in the bunk to help with the fatigue, whilst junior pilots are doing 6 trips because the credit system deems that to be the same amount of work.
I thought we were starting on occasions to see to six trips a month on some lines in relatively recent "days of old" under Bidline and Roster assign/FA but I'm probably wrong.

Obviously you need some way of quantifying work done, but doing it by perhaps simply by looking at number of reports ex-base would open up a whole new can of worms.; on the T7 for example if you go down that road the senior might opt for, say, 5 or 6 TLV 2 day trips, per month, leaving them lots of days off, whilst OTOH the junior would struggle to fill their lines with the longer trips...and how for example do you propose to quantify the single report at base 9 day SIN/SYD/SIN which is on the T7? That can be a real nasty in terms of fatigue and funnily enough often doesn't go massively senior in the bidding, either under Bidline or JSS...

I'd agree "something must be done" to alleviate the problems some are facing but I'm not sure what the solution is, perhaps seeding junior rosters with a "heavy trip"? That of course would takes us back to something that was done in those "days of old...." and back to a fairness element of a system that many people seemed to be very unhappy with and voted to get rid of.

I suspect ultimately the solution lies in addressing the amount of "output" the company thinks is reasonable, there is only so much that can be gained by tinkering with JSS.

Last edited by wiggy; 5th May 2019 at 07:06.
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Old 5th May 2019, 06:54
  #6245 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Runcorn,Cheshire,England
Posts: 319
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
I donít think anyone wants everything now, and youíre wrong, being junior under JSS is not the same as being junior under bidline back when you or I were junior. Not even close.
how so then? Because your post made me doubt myself so I had a look at my logbook from 1999 when I joined. Seems very similar actually. Every weekend worked. 4 reserves a year. 790 hours. And 5 east coasts a month the norm. Few months with
5 trips and two sims.
Took me about 3 years to achieve a couple of weekends a month off. Average hours were maybe a tad less I grant you that. But not a huge amount.
We ahve only had 4 JSS months so Iíd say itís too early to make a massive call on it. Although, Iím not sure I agree with you when you say thereís a massive difference in what the junior are doing now. I think we tend to look back on careers with rose tinted glasses. As said above, a quick trawl on iBid of the last year reveals quite a few lines with 6 trips due FA on them.
i do however think there needs to be a limit on work done though. 5 LH 3 month is probably the limit imo. Unfortunately, BA have found they can sweat the assets so I donít see it changing soon.

Last edited by 3Greens; 5th May 2019 at 07:12.
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Old 5th May 2019, 07:34
  #6246 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 626
I think part of the problem is that our rostering system has been brought into the 21st Century. The ability of computer power to “optimise” rosters was never available before, which meant “inefficient “ rosters as far as the company were concerned. Or extra time off as far as pilots were concerned.
It is a pity that optimise meant different things depending on whether you were BA or a pilot.
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Old 5th May 2019, 07:35
  #6247 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Originally Posted by 3Greens View Post

how so then? Because your post made me doubt myself so I had a look at my logbook from 1999 when I joined. Seems very similar actually. Every weekend worked. 4 reserves a year. 790 hours. And 5 east coasts a month the norm. Few months with
5 trips and two sims.
Sounds about right - I joined a while before you ( 747 then 744)....during the early years if the trips weren't long on Time Away from base/low low earning (nil box payments and allowances in soft non convertible currency, multiple weekends away from home) then they were trips involving bouncing across the Atlantic multiple times a month.

It has pretty much always been pants (in relative terms), one way or another, at the bottom of a seniority list...on one fleet (744) it was mitigated by seeding the Blindlines with a "decent" trip...(e.g. HRE or GRU), and what saddens me is it appeared around the time of the ballot that many thought getting rid of Bidline would be the answer to all their problems..

Now, we've done "The four Yorkshiremen" ... do we need to think about trying a look on "The Bright Side". Maybe somebody can come up with a solution to weekend working that doesn't drop everybody in the muck...I reckon setting a flying hours target of 750 a year would be a start and might get JSS working as advertised pre-ballot..fat chance of that.

Last edited by wiggy; 5th May 2019 at 08:03.
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Old 5th May 2019, 11:07
  #6248 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 559
I thought we were starting on occasions to see to six trips a month on some lines in relatively recent "days of old" under Bidline and Roster assign/FA but I'm probably wrong.
You are not wrong, but Iím not sure Iíd call bidline with FA, the days of old. It was a temporary alleviation to the rules. In the same way that a year or so of hanging about for an hour waiting for a bus from the aircraft to the car park prepared us well for the one hour it tends to take to get from chocks on at T5 to the car park, a few years of FA prepared us well for JSS. Quite clever of BA really. 5 trips a month is busy but doable, and is probably a fair price for being junior, but 6 trips a month is a recipe for serious fatigue in my opinion. Bidline used to have a rule where if you had 5 trips but were not at CAP at stage 1, you could drop as many of them as you liked with the hope of getting closer to CAP with the 5 trips you might pick up at stage 2. I presume the intention there was that 6 trips a month was a bit much. I agree that if you set a max 5 trips or adjusted credit for shorter trips, the senior guys would then switch to picking up 5 of the shortest trips and leave junior guys with 5 long trips. Hence why I stated that a seniority system for monthly bidding doesnít really work very fairly. Iím all for there being some advantage to being senior, but the advantages are way too high.

Introducing some kind of points system for weekends is an attempt to remove the seniority advantage for that element of monthly bidding. Messing about with inhibitors is an attempt to do away with the seniority advantages there also. We seem to be attempting to use a strict seniority system with a load of sticky plasters. It is true that the BALPA members voted for JSS. When 50% of the pilots are more senior than the others, and many of those in the bottom half recognise they will be in the top half by the time the system comes in, funnily enough, it gets voted in - particularly when tied to a paydeal, it doesnít mean it is a good system for the guys in the bottom portion.

I know plenty of people who are refusing commands purely because they donít want to give up the huge lifestyle advantages afforded be being senior.
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Old 6th May 2019, 19:21
  #6249 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
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Plus one to working every weekend when junior, first on short haul, as an FO, then again long haul, a glance at my log book shows the delightful 183/182 combo 4 times in a row, admittedly the 3rd was allocated from TASS, but todayís snowflakes would be at the priory after that!

JSS is rubbish, I didnít vote for it, and those did are stupid for following BALPAs advice, give the promise of a free gift in their packet of cereals and pilots will vote for anything.

But JSS is not the problem, itís the people that promote themselves into a command, then moan about working weekends, like they didnít know and the people who join a seniority based company, with 34 pay points then moan about it. Those people are the problem!

I wanna be a Captain.......... but I shouldnít, have to work weekends, poor me........



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Old 7th May 2019, 05:42
  #6250 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
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"a glance at my log book shows the delightful 183/182 combo 4 times in a row"..

That's nasty..very very nasty.... for those going take a quick look at the timings of the BA183/182 (available on an Internet near you) and translate it into UK time/UK body clock timing.

Last edited by wiggy; 7th May 2019 at 06:08.
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Old 7th May 2019, 15:39
  #6251 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Iíve been with BA for quite a while now.
Iíve had the best 22 odd years of my life. Great people to work with, going to great places round the world. I really have had a ball.

JSS has changed all of that. If youíre junior youíre going to work every weekend, every month, doing a lot of the most fatiguing trips available with minimum days off. And thatís just long haul, I canít speak for short haul.

Anyone applying, just bear that in mind...
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Old 7th May 2019, 16:25
  #6252 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 247
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
"a glance at my log book shows the delightful 183/182 combo 4 times in a row"..

That's nasty..very very nasty.... for those going take a quick look at the timings of the BA183/182 (available on an Internet near you) and translate it into UK time/UK body clock timing.
That's pretty grim deep night into an early. Previous life did a sleep study on a (longer) night into day rotation - classic 18-30hr rest period but in fact it worked a treat - quick 4hrs when you arrive, force yourself up and enjoy a night based on you local TZ get up and fly home.
OK you do get two shots at a sleep but my (in-experienced) view would be the sleepy scientists would have a field day with that trip.
Looks good on paper I can roster anything job.
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Old 7th May 2019, 17:42
  #6253 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 698
JSS is rubbish, I didn’t vote for it, and those did are stupid for following BALPAs advice, give the promise of a free gift in their packet of cereals and pilots will vote for anything.
Total bollocks. Not why anyone voted for JSS. Feel free to rewrite history for your ďI told you so momentĒ but itís not why JSS is here. If youíre that clever sort our the pay mess will you? Nah, didnít think so.
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Old 7th May 2019, 17:53
  #6254 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 37
Posts: 380
Snowflack: “those that promote themselves into a command?” Nobody promotes themselves. They get the opportunity to prove they can meet the required standard. It’s a good job somebody will take a SH command because just imagine how many course failures there would be if we were dragging long term SFO’s from LH to SH LHS against their will.

Ryanair has it right. Seniority based on the day you join. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command upgrade. It would solve the problem we have regarding SH command


Last edited by bex88; 7th May 2019 at 18:15.
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Old 7th May 2019, 21:15
  #6255 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by bex88 View Post

Ryanair has it right. Seniority based on the day you join. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command upgrade. It would solve the problem we have regarding SH command
All very well at an airline with one fleet where all the work is the same, of course....
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Old 8th May 2019, 05:46
  #6256 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,311
.Ryanair has it right. Seniority based on the day you join. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command upgrade. It would solve the problem we have regarding SH command
It depends what exactly you think the "problem" is but I suspect such a scheme might have consequences for those who join or who have joined BA hoping for a fast SH command

In passing just an observation that I think might be worth making to avoid any tendency to stereotype parts of the BA workforce:

Over the years at BA there have been more than a handful of "long term" Long Haul Co-pilots who have successfully gone to Short Haul for a command by way of a Command conversion.

Last edited by wiggy; 8th May 2019 at 07:33.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:18
  #6257 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 303
Originally Posted by bex88 View Post
Snowflack: ďthose that promote themselves into a command?Ē


You know what he meant; don't be difficult.

You joined BA late, got an early short haul command, and now can't stop moaning about the BA / seniority system.
Get over it!
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Old 8th May 2019, 11:57
  #6258 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 37
Posts: 380
The Blu Ridband. Wrong, wrong and the seniority system is fine as a concept but the delivery of it is not. Since you know me send me a email and I will happily meet you to give you the facts surrounding my position. You are probably misinformed as many are and I don’t blame you for that. Email is just the standard BA one.

wiggy, quite correct. It is one of the most challenging courses RHS LH to LHS SH. If you are not committed to it, it will be a much greater ask than it is. It’s the attitude of guys I have flown with that gets me. The system as I said is fine but the attitude of a minority shows a lack of compassion or empathy and in some cases a spiteful enjoyment. Re reading I should have worded my point better.

Last edited by bex88; 8th May 2019 at 12:08.
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Old 8th May 2019, 18:38
  #6259 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 703
No more Short Haul courses until the end of the summer schedule according to latest Comms on yammer.
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Old 10th May 2019, 09:47
  #6260 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: About 5000ft on a nice clear day, ideally!
Posts: 36
Holdpool

Hi All,
Iíve been in the BA holdpool for just over 2 months now. Slightly unexpected as we were told during the process that the holdpool was pretty much non-existent and to expect to be called up very quickly. Anyone else been waiting that long, or would anyone thatís recently received an offer be able to let me know how long they were waiting before it came?
cheers
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