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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 5th Jun 2019, 10:36
  #6241 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post


Partly that, though that is something that the somewhat controversial JSS inhibitors are meant to mitigate by putting a limit on credit dense trips per individual per month.. ,


Not sure how limiting to 3 ABV and 3 JFK is supposed to mitigate fatigue though. Needs to be done by limiting the max number of trips operating in the WOCL if fatigue were the target... EASA is unrealistically too focused upon time zone changes that have little to nil effect on fatigue with the time spent away.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 10:49
  #6242 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
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Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
Not sure how limiting to 3 ABV and 3 JFK is supposed to mitigate fatigue though.
True...but then again there are some contrary so and so’s around and one person’s bad JFK is another persons good one..

Needs to be done by limiting the max number of trips operating in the WOCL if fatigue were the target
Looking at the Long Haul schedules I’d be seriously impressed if somebody can find a way of doing that...apart from the few oddballs you almost always end up operating in the WOCL at some point.

apart from the EASA is unrealistically too focused upon time zone changes that have little to nil effect on fatigue with the time spent away.
Agreed.

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Old 5th Jun 2019, 11:32
  #6243 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: EU
Posts: 618
To add some perspective to how fatigue is managed at 2 other UK airlines I've worked for.

Call crewing.

"Im fatigued for my duty"
"Ok I'll take you off"
"Thanks bye"

And you'd never hear about it again from anyone. No follow up phone call or email. All you would have to do is fill in a fatigue questionnaire as to what caused your fatigue. And anything from jet lag, to a night flight to a screaming baby at home are perfectly acceptable reasons. In fact, you're completely untouchable when you go fatigued. More so than if you call sick.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 12:05
  #6244 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post


Looking at the Long Haul schedules I’d be seriously impressed if somebody can find a way of doing that...apart from the few oddballs you almost always end up operating in the WOCL at some point.
you do, but my point is if you end up doing 6 2 man low credit trips as opposed to 4x 3/4 man, with 4-6 hours in the bunk and 3 Local nights rest trips when you get back, one is not sustainable long term and the other one is. Guess which trips filter to the bottom.

That said, the culture imho is very different to the one represented above. I am curious to see if views are based upon actual bad experience or perception of how one would be treated. I’ve not heard bad things from people who have needed to take a little recovery time, it’s a shame those views are not represented above.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 12:20
  #6245 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: EU
Age: 44
Posts: 924
Originally Posted by pudoc View Post
To add some perspective to how fatigue is managed at 2 other UK airlines I've worked for.

Call crewing.

"Im fatigued for my duty"
"Ok I'll take you off"
"Thanks bye"

And you'd never hear about it again from anyone. No follow up phone call or email. All you would have to do is fill in a fatigue questionnaire as to what caused your fatigue. And anything from jet lag, to a night flight to a screaming baby at home are perfectly acceptable reasons. In fact, you're completely untouchable when you go fatigued. More so than if you call sick.
What is the procedure at BA?
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 13:07
  #6246 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 23
In my experience it’s basically the same. Contrary to popular belief BA won’t hunt you down if you report fatigued. I’ve had nothing but support when I’ve called in fatigued and all they’ve asked me to do is fill in an ASR with “Fatigue Report” in the title and let them know when I’m happy to resume my roster.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 13:27
  #6247 (permalink)  
Junior trash
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,025
Originally Posted by Mylius View Post
In my experience it’s basically the same. Contrary to popular belief BA won’t hunt you down if you report fatigued. I’ve had nothing but support when I’ve called in fatigued and all they’ve asked me to do is fill in an ASR with “Fatigue Report” in the title and let them know when I’m happy to resume my roster.
Agreed. Never any come back in my experience, although, its worth checking the ASR once its been through the system to check they haven't tried to reclassify it as unrested or sickness.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 19:40
  #6248 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 750
Having said that, I understand that on not a few occasions, fatigued pilots were subsequently questioned why they had logged onto crewlink and emaestro in the run up to calling in fatigued. That to me shows a complete unawareness of the issue. If I was to publish the DFCM’s name I’d probably get banned, but would have several thousand pilots nodding in recognition.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 20:28
  #6249 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by hunterboy View Post
Having said that, I understand that on not a few occasions, fatigued pilots were subsequently questioned why they had logged onto crewlink and emaestro in the run up to calling in fatigued. That to me shows a complete unawareness of the issue. If I was to publish the DFCM’s name I’d probably get banned, but would have several thousand pilots nodding in recognition.

hmmmm...

When I went fatigued it was very easy and dealt with by one of our fantastic DFCMs (most of them are bloody good in my experience). I apologised and felt (wrongly I guess) as though I'd let the company down or dropped them in it some how to cover my roster. I was very impressed at the response I received and reassured that this was a daily occurrence and an extremely regular conversation.

What wasn't so clever was the DFCM (no names mentioned) who picked it up a day or so later and explained how I'm fine now I've had 24 hours at home and would likely be ready for work as they're very short of FO's. When I said no I was subtly interrogated on my drives to work, rest management / arrangements between day trips and home life situation. It was disappointing to say the least when I was then asked at the end of the call to put it all in writing via email. Gave them both barrels on my email but smelt a rat.....so when I was back in I had a look in the system audit trail to find that my fatigue had been re classified. Never got to the bottom of what to but I insisted it was changed back. The trail went cold but suspect it was re categorised. Shame really, it's just masking the problems.

Overall, a very very good experience initially but the follow up and company audit trail wasn't good at all.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 20:51
  #6250 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: England
Posts: 88
Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
Is it not a problem partially of the workforces making though? If you have huge constraints placed on rostering by a seniority based system that has junior guys picking up multiple low credit trips, because those above them are picking out the highly credit dense stuff, leaving the scraps at the bottom?
Yes that's a very valid point. However the ultimate responsibility lies with the individual. That's what I find staggering, the reluctance of the individual to report fatigued.


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Old 6th Jun 2019, 08:04
  #6251 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by 2 Whites 2 Reds View Post
hmmmm...

When I went fatigued it was very easy and dealt with by one of our fantastic DFCMs (most of them are bloody good in my experience). I apologised and felt (wrongly I guess) as though I'd let the company down or dropped them in it some how to cover my roster. I was very impressed at the response I received and reassured that this was a daily occurrence and an extremely regular conversation.

What wasn't so clever was the DFCM (no names mentioned) who picked it up a day or so later and explained how I'm fine now I've had 24 hours at home and would likely be ready for work as they're very short of FO's. When I said no I was subtly interrogated on my drives to work, rest management / arrangements between day trips and home life situation. It was disappointing to say the least when I was then asked at the end of the call to put it all in writing via email. Gave them both barrels on my email but smelt a rat.....so when I was back in I had a look in the system audit trail to find that my fatigue had been re classified. Never got to the bottom of what to but I insisted it was changed back. The trail went cold but suspect it was re categorised. Shame really, it's just masking the problems.

Overall, a very very good experience initially but the follow up and company audit trail wasn't good at all.
My advice when calling in fatigued is either call your Manager first (or immediately after a call to Crewing) and ideally don't email him. Why call your Manager? Firstly why not and secondly it means your being open and honest.
One of the two UK AOC's with approved FRMS now get a sleep scientist (who has done work for AOC's and BALPA to maintain a good balance) to give "science of sleep" training to all their Crew, Crewing staff etc. It might help if BA put some of their Pilot Managers in touch?
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Old 6th Jun 2019, 13:39
  #6252 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: WILTSHIRE
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post


As Toolong says it’s definitely “Fake News”, though in various forms it has been circulating for a few days. Don’t know why how or why it started and FWIW yours is the first version where it’s been tagged as being associated with a specific fleet.
For resignations read resignations in order to take early retirement if you wish. Not to move to another company. Just people disillusioned with JSS / Pensions / Morale etc
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Old 6th Jun 2019, 15:28
  #6253 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Age: 42
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by red9 View Post
For resignations read resignations in order to take early retirement if you wish. Not to move to another company. Just people disillusioned with JSS / Pensions / Morale etc
Don't believe all the rumours, the retirees are at the moment pretty much only 65 year olds pilots, a few from within the bubble who moved to an airline up North and around 20 junior pilots who joined KLM and Aer Lingus.
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Old 6th Jun 2019, 18:24
  #6254 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by Jumbo2 View Post
Don't believe all the rumours, the retirees are at the moment pretty much only 65 year olds pilots, a few from within the bubble who moved to an airline up North and around 20 junior pilots who joined KLM and Aer Lingus.
Correct. I’ve counted 10 777 resignations so far this year including a few FOs. For comparison that’s less than 1% of the fleet establishment.
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Old 6th Jun 2019, 21:42
  #6255 (permalink)  
RHS
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by Jumbo2 View Post
Don't believe all the rumours, the retirees are at the moment pretty much only 65 year olds pilots, a few from within the bubble who moved to an airline up North and around 20 junior pilots who joined KLM and Aer Lingus.
Not true, I personally know of 3 in the Jet 2 hold pool (DEPs last 5 years mix of LHS/RHS), one to a private jet operator, one in the TUI hold pool and one in the Easy hold pool for DEC. Then there’s the two who left in January to Virgin off the 787, plus another who’s gone back to Ryanair. BA is 100% now a “if you’re from the SE and it suits your lifestyle”.

Someone will disagree with me, but hey ho, before I’m called massively negative, right now I quite like it, the pay cheque is regular and stable, my roster doesn’t change and I have decent lifestyle control, would I recommend you join the bottom of any fleet on JSS, unless you’re 24 and single, or a realist who knows the score and is willing to put years in before you see fruits? Absolutely not. Even then, ask me in another five years time, if current trajectories of our T&Cs being assaulted continues, I probably wouldn’t recommend it full stop. Very very sad to have that as my honest opinion right now.
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Old 6th Jun 2019, 22:00
  #6256 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 461
Originally Posted by RHS View Post


Not true, I personally know of 3 in the Jet 2 hold pool (DEPs last 5 years mix of LHS/RHS), one to a private jet operator, one in the TUI hold pool and one in the Easy hold pool for DEC. Then there’s the two who left in January to Virgin off the 787, plus another who’s gone back to Ryanair. BA is 100% now a “if you’re from the SE and it suits your lifestyle”.

Someone will disagree with me, but hey ho, before I’m called massively negative, right now I quite like it, the pay cheque is regular and stable, my roster doesn’t change and I have decent lifestyle control, would I recommend you join the bottom of any fleet on JSS, unless you’re 24 and single, or a realist who knows the score and is willing to put years in before you see fruits? Absolutely not. Even then, ask me in another five years time, if current trajectories of our T&Cs being assaulted continues, I probably wouldn’t recommend it full stop. Very very sad to have that as my honest opinion right now.
My query here is that even for a 24 year old with no real commitments (other than the fact most of their friends will likely work normal mon-fri jobs, which makes socialising with them a nightmare), is JSS in 17 years time (or whatever roster system is in place) going to be very desirable as a new captain? Ie you spend 5-10 years doing the rubbish lines because you’re junior, the enjoy the next half a decade at the top of the FO list for your fleet, picking and choosing the trips you want and not working weekends. You’re ready to take your command, age roughly 40 (which is when you more than likely will have commitments) and then just like that, you’re the most junior again. It takes until you’re 50 to regain any sort of relative seniority, all the while family are left for another weekend without you.

My question being will the introduction if this system / general assault in Ts+Cs result in more career SFOs who refuse to be junior again?
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Old 6th Jun 2019, 22:28
  #6257 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: chances are, not at home
Posts: 323
The insanity of seniority!
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Old 6th Jun 2019, 23:26
  #6258 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hang on let me check
Posts: 622
The solution to this is to stay single!
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Old 7th Jun 2019, 03:50
  #6259 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 750
How do the pilots in US and other airlines that use seniority rostering systems manage to recruit pilots?
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Old 7th Jun 2019, 07:01
  #6260 (permalink)  
VJW
Sciolist (look it up) of the first order
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 949
Originally Posted by hunterboy View Post
How do the pilots in US and other airlines that use seniority rostering systems manage to recruit pilots?
They pay a lot more :/
I don’t think BA has trouble getting people through the door mind you. The pass rate in their assessments can only be about 20% max maybe from start to finish...

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