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Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 3rd Aug 2018, 11:50
  #4961 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,331
I won't pretend that I have followed the zipper debate in minute detail but I do know it was a source of great angst (putting it politely) among many long served BA shorthaulers so there are obviously two sides to that debate. I got the impression from AB's e-mail that running with a dual list wasn't exactly something the company wanted to do and it was something that was going to be subject to continued negotiation...

More interesting (to me anyhow) is the fact that management are willing to back down slightly/temporarily on this issue, which was a blocker to introducing the new rostering system, and accept the hassle of two lists, all in order to get rid of Bidline and get JSS up and running quickly....you'd almost think management think there is something in it for them
wiggy is online now  
Old 3rd Aug 2018, 20:37
  #4962 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: England
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by bex88 View Post
Nice! the junior BMI guys get stuffed. That said even the senior ones too. Join at the bottom and stay at the bottom for your entire career. No progression from a rostering stand point. No choice, low to no roster satisfaction and all enforced by BALPA. I even took this up with AB and all I got was a shrug of the shoulders.
Steady on bex... all EMBA as it were have had the choice from day 1 to go to LH in the RHS, continue in the LHS or take up until recently out of seniority protected commands. In fact all the Commands this & last year were protected... only 2016 saw it drop to & past their seniority. Not bad considering they joined BA in 2012 having commands & RHS LH since day one, whilst others senior to them had to sit out their 5 year engagement freeze. But I like others didnít complain as it was the deal that was signed. If theyíre junior & in the bubble thatís their choice! Could have gone to LH & be nearly 50% for example on the jumbo.... & if Iím not mistaken it was the bmi list that chose to turn down the last zipper solution not the BA list.... Not a bmi bash but letís state the facts, most feel theyíve done very well. Itís the same for BA guys, was on the bus the other day & a junior BA SH skipper was complaining heíd gone down 3 or 4% & it wasnít fair.... weíll could have gone to LH.... his choice, you only have to be junior once!

Anyway back to the thread... good luck to those applying.

BASHLH is offline  
Old 3rd Aug 2018, 21:30
  #4963 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 359
Originally Posted by BASHLH View Post


Steady on bex... all EMBA as it were have had the choice from day 1 to go to LH in the RHS, continue in the LHS or take up until recently out of seniority protected commands. In fact all the Commands this & last year were protected... only 2016 saw it drop to & past their seniority. Not bad considering they joined BA in 2012 having commands & RHS LH since day one, whilst others senior to them had to sit out their 5 year engagement freeze. But I like others didnít complain as it was the deal that was signed. If theyíre junior & in the bubble thatís their choice! Could have gone to LH & be nearly 50% for example on the jumbo.... & if Iím not mistaken it was the bmi list that chose to turn down the last zipper solution not the BA list.... Not a bmi bash but letís state the facts, most feel theyíve done very well. Itís the same for BA guys, was on the bus the other day & a junior BA SH skipper was complaining heíd gone down 3 or 4% & it wasnít fair.... weíll could have gone to LH.... his choice, you only have to be junior once!

Anyway back to the thread... good luck to those applying.

The trouble is, the EMBA FOs, who got their commands based on their ACTUAL seniority (nothing to do with BMI), were forced back into the BMI bubble against their will. Why is that allowed?
Tay Cough is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2018, 07:22
  #4964 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Age: 50
Posts: 15
Bex88.... No choice, low to no roster satisfaction and all enforced by BALPA. I even took this up with AB and all I got was a shrug of the shoulders.

I think you will find Bex88, Balpa have done exactly what they are there to do...consult members, ballot, and when no agreement was reached escalate this as a failure to agree with the company.

Bigger battles ahead, such as the up coming pay negotiations, which will have a far greater effect on the careers and lives of all the pilots within BA.

Maybe this is why Flt Ops capitutaled on it??
8029848s is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2018, 07:36
  #4965 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: England
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post
The trouble is, the EMBA FOs, who got their commands based on their ACTUAL seniority (nothing to do with BMI), were forced back into the BMI bubble against their will. Why is that allowed?
I couldnít agree with you more Tay... they should be in the BA list, especially if they want to be! Iím sure Iíve read somewhere some pony about MPE to maintain circa 145.... itís all political & the initials IG I bet have all to do with it!

Good luck to those applying.
BASHLH is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2018, 11:21
  #4966 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: london
Posts: 28
Iím not entirely sure I get what this new news means...
Is it going to be all doom and gloom for new joiners on SH then?
kendrick47247 is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2018, 11:24
  #4967 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 706
Makes no difference to you Kendrick, it only affects the ex BMI captains and all of them are senior to you wherever they end up anyway. This thread is historically known for thread drift (guilty in that respect myself) so don’t worry too much about it.

Personally I think JSS will be better for Short Haul (virtually no one wants a mixture of daytips and tours which is all 90% of the Triplines are, although it remains to be seen how effectively you can build a roster consisting of either day trips or tours and a lot will depend on seniority/knowing the correct JSS tweaks). I suspect for Long Haul it will be a shitshow compared to Bidline, but who knows?
RexBanner is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2018, 11:50
  #4968 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
So is this thread way off track now or is all this relevant?
Deano777 is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2018, 14:02
  #4969 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,331
The BMI issue and it's ultimate resolution - perhaps, perhaps not.

JSS - well if someone is planning on joining BA because it they have been led to believe it has a "world leading rostering system" then I'd suggest it's introduction in place of Bidline, the lifestyle control it does or doesn't afford, and the sort rosters it will produce are highly relevant to a recruitment thread..
wiggy is online now  
Old 4th Aug 2018, 15:35
  #4970 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Yes, wiggy, I was alluding to the bmi issue. I'd like to think pilots were joining for a collective number of reasons rather than specifically the rostering system but clearly that's subjective and highly individual.
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Old 4th Aug 2018, 16:12
  #4971 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: London
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post

JSS - well if someone is planning on joining BA because it they have been led to believe it has a "world leading rostering system" then I'd suggest it's introduction in place of Bidline, the lifestyle control it does or doesn't afford, and the sort rosters it will produce are highly relevant to a recruitment thread..
Wiggy - with a view of bringing this thread back on topic, could you offer a very brief explanation on the difference between the two. I've heard Bidline and JSS mentioned countless times, but I've got no idea on what they are, other than the introduction of JSS seems to be very unpopular. I'm sure it would be appreciated by many, myself very much included!
clvf88 is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2018, 21:27
  #4972 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 706
Bidline: essentially the company publish the Trip Lines (each individual line is a roster) 6 weeks or so in advance of the month in question. The pilot workforce then bids for these lines of work in seniority order. So in theory the most senior pilot in the seat in question is effectively writing his own roster as he knows exactly what trips he will be doing and also the days off. Pilots will bid for lines based on weekends off or destinations or, in the case of the most senior, both of these variables hence the notion of writing your own roster. There are only so many trip lines, those who don’t have the required seniority for any of their choices of lines will have their roster written for them by the company with the reconstituted trips of what is left over (blind line).

JSS: No real control whatsoever. You’re just expressing preferences for days off or particular types of trips/destinations but there is no guarantee that you will get any of what you want. It is not anywhere near as transparent as bidline. Still very seniority driven but there will also be inhibitors in place to stop the most senior just going to Cape Town (or insert your own desirable destination) four times a month. There are very real fears that inserting all of these inhibitors will end up in the programme being corrupted away from its original design, see the case of Carmen down in Gatwick where, in an attempt to please everybody, they have ended up with a programme that pleases nobody. That’s why Wiggy and others (including myself) have just described it as posh blindlines as even the most senior will have absolutely no idea what their roster will contain until the day of publication.

So whats new in that, you may perfectly reasonably ask if you’re coming from another airline. Trouble is it’s a severely retrograde step in being able to do what you want when you want and have control over the whole process, something that has been a unique selling point of BA for many years but is about to be a thing of the past.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2018, 22:12
  #4973 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Doctor's waiting room
Posts: 578
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
That’s why Wiggy and others (including myself) have just described it as posh blindlines as even the most senior will have absolutely no idea what their roster will contain until the day of publication.

Which has proven to be the sparkling jewel in the crown for the management of those of us that fly the (black, white, red and green) flag at another legacy carrier. A 'bidding' system as described here can generate questionable satisfaction on a consistent basis. If BA are allowed to 'massage' the roster to enhance productivity, then years of seniority could be worthless, if undesirable trips 'suddenly' appear out the blue, once your roster is published.

It is far harder to fight change, once it has been implemented!
Emma Royds is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2018, 22:22
  #4974 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: London
Posts: 14
Ok, is somebody able to tell me (I'm new to the pool, with alternative options......) what are the benefits of joining BA? I've no interest in LH and the only draw I can honestly see is the ability to do a bit of upper class travel. That, along with the hat doesn't cut it for me.
Paddingtonbear is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2018, 22:38
  #4975 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: London
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Bidline: essentially the company publish the Trip Lines (each individual line is a roster) 6 weeks or so in advance of the month in question. The pilot workforce then bids for these lines of work in seniority order. So in theory the most senior pilot in the seat in question is effectively writing his own roster as he knows exactly what trips he will be doing and also the days off. Pilots will bid for lines based on weekends off or destinations or, in the case of the most senior, both of these variables hence the notion of writing your own roster. There are only so many trip lines, those who donít have the required seniority for any of their choices of lines will have their roster written for them by the company with the reconstituted trips of what is left over (blind line).

JSS: No real control whatsoever. Youíre just expressing preferences for days off or particular types of trips/destinations but there is no guarantee that you will get any of what you want. It is not anywhere near as transparent as bidline. Still very seniority driven but there will also be inhibitors in place to stop the most senior just going to Cape Town (or insert your own desirable destination) four times a month. There are very real fears that inserting all of these inhibitors will end up in the programme being corrupted away from its original design, see the case of Carmen down in Gatwick where, in an attempt to please everybody, they have ended up with a programme that pleases nobody. Thatís why Wiggy and others (including myself) have just described it as posh blindlines as even the most senior will have absolutely no idea what their roster will contain until the day of publication.

So whats new in that, you may perfectly reasonably ask if youíre coming from another airline. Trouble is itís a severely retrograde step in being able to do what you want when you want and have control over the whole process, something that has been a unique selling point of BA for many years but is about to be a thing of the past.
Thank you for taking the time to explain that - much appreciated and very informative
clvf88 is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2018, 23:05
  #4976 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: somewhere between Miami and Havana
Posts: 110
Originally Posted by Paddingtonbear View Post
Ok, is somebody able to tell me (I'm new to the pool, with alternative options......) what are the benefits of joining BA? I've no interest in LH and the only draw I can honestly see is the ability to do a bit of upper class travel. That, along with the hat doesn't cut it for me.
Without a reference, eg, ďcompared to Ryanair, what are the benefits,Ē the question is meaningless.

If if you have no interest in long haul, think youíll do a lot of upper class travel, donít want to wear the stupid hat and you have other options, hop out of the pool, son, hereís your towel. Seriously, youíll be miserable here.

As for the ď doesnít cut it for meĒ comment... Iím pretty sure our community will be alright without you.

Good luck with with your career, sir.

Cheers

Buter
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Old 5th Aug 2018, 02:34
  #4977 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 97
Originally Posted by Paddingtonbear View Post
Ok, is somebody able to tell me (I'm new to the pool, with alternative options......) what are the benefits of joining BA? I've no interest in LH and the only draw I can honestly see is the ability to do a bit of upper class travel. That, along with the hat doesn't cut it for me.
Can never understand why you would go through the considerable time and effort of applying if you need someone else to convince you. Not to mention the waste of a interview/sim slot for someone who actually is interested in joining.

They had 1000 applicants in a 2 week recruiting window so they can probably struggle on without you.
zero/zero is online now  
Old 5th Aug 2018, 03:16
  #4978 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: London
Posts: 14
Thank you for the honest assessment.
Paddingtonbear is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2018, 08:35
  #4979 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,331
Morning all, Firstly may I commend RexBís descriptions of both Bidline and JSS to the house....

Paddington..

Unless you have a burning desire to do shorthaul out of London I canít see why BA would be of interest, though TBF I donít live the BA shorthaul dream...

As for travelling in Premium cabins.... Iím not sure how the recruiters / advertising sells that benefit but you have a very limited number of those particular tickets and despite everything there are no guarantees about getting on a flight and where you will end up seated (and it can get really difficult if you are travelling as a family ).

Many a staff traveller with First or Club entitlement has ended up on a jumpseat......






Last edited by wiggy; 5th Aug 2018 at 08:50.
wiggy is online now  
Old 5th Aug 2018, 08:49
  #4980 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: London
Posts: 14
Thanks Wiggy.

I did put a huge effort into this. In fact, I'm not ashamed to admit it was my fourth attempt. If anything, merely passing this process is satisfying in itself.

I have obviously followed this thread with great interest and ask my original question based on reports from people who are very obviously within BA at the moment, and can tell me how it is.

Cheers and all the best to those applying.
Paddingtonbear is offline  

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