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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 3rd Mar 2019, 10:32
  #6061 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 544
As many have been saying for quite some time now, BA is nothing like the airline it was even just a few years ago. Things which would have been unthinkable years ago are absolutely on the table now. The rot has accelerated massively and the unions are pretty much impotent to do anything about it. Itís like a snowball rolling down hill; if you donít stop it early on it will have gathered so much mass and velocity that it becomes unstoppable. I personally think the point where unions could stop it passed many years ago. The only thing to stop it now will be market forces - people refusing to join or large numbers of people leaving. In fact the mixed fleet cabin crew model requires a fairly high turn over as they donít want people staying for ages and demanding extra pay for their loyalty. That same unacceptable attrition rate will exist for pilots too, although theyíd want them to stay longer, but I bet we are nowhere near it at the moment, therefore IAG will think itís still acceptable to keep turning the thumb screws. As long as they just take as much as can be stomached at a time, chip chip chip, marginal gains and all that. Change happens faster than it used to; the second a chip is taken, the chisel is already cracking the next bit. Our employer no longer cares about anything but improving efficiencies and therefore operating margins. And we no longer just compare ourselves to others; we chase that improved operating margin no matter how high it already is. If employee attrition versus recruitment starts to effect that operating margin, things will change, otherwise expect more of the same.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2019, 13:03
  #6062 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Under the table
Posts: 177
If BA are worried about people leaving then make them sign a bond, or even better, focus on making BA such a good place to work nobody wants to leave in the first place. Charging upfront for type ratings is unjustifiable and a few years ago would have been unthinkable at BA.
They aren't worried about people leaving. We can see who leaves the company every month, and I only need one hand to keep count of them. They've got no shortage of applicants alas, otherwise there might be bigger appetite from bosses to introduce better terms!
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Old 3rd Mar 2019, 15:44
  #6063 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by Stocious View Post
They aren't worried about people leaving. We can see who leaves the company every month, and I only need one hand to keep count of them.
How many fingers per hand have you got ...Somebody posted elsewhere earlier today that 7 are going in March, two of whom for definite are off to other oufits, 3 are reason/destination unknown and the other two appear to be leaving at or very near their CRA. I would have said 5-10 years ago even 2 or 3 opting to leave for pastures new would have been unheard off so the climate is changing...but I also agree with you that:

They've got no shortage of applicants alas, otherwise there might be bigger appetite from bosses to introduce better terms!
...Whilst it is possible the experienced DEPs who are established elsewhere might perhaps be having second thoughts I suspect the newly qualified will still be hammering at the door, and even with the 18K needed for a Type rating there will be no shortage...
wiggy is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2019, 16:29
  #6064 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Timba Hold
Posts: 48
They simply cant get enough DEPs to join BA short haul because of the state it is in. It has nothing to do with 'wanting to make BA accessible to everyone' or whatever they spin it as. They want cheap FO's and it is as simple as that. You are an annoying cost to this company as a pilot. At least other places you knew where you stood. The pretend statements of really valuing our contributions e.t.c made by Klaus and not worth the paper they are written on. Think very carefully about coming here for SH. You can listen to the BA fans if you want but don't be surprised when you get here!
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Old 3rd Mar 2019, 16:43
  #6065 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 670
Short Haul honestly isnít that bad. I moan more than most and even I can acknowledge that. If you get a SH offer also remember its a gateway into one of the most secure places in the industry and eventually a long haul slot if thatís what youíre after. Itís no bed of roses but to pretend itís some never ending nightmare is also far from the truth.

Charging new entrants £18k for a type rating though? For BA thatís disgraceful.

Last edited by RexBanner; 3rd Mar 2019 at 17:23.
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Old 3rd Mar 2019, 17:55
  #6066 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: AUH
Posts: 93
What has happened to my national airline? It seems as if I want to come back from the sandpit now the only reasonable option is RYR and I don't really know how reasonable that is....
roll_over is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2019, 18:36
  #6067 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Charging new entrants £18k for a type rating though? For BA thatís disgraceful.
Iím embarrassed that BA have stooped this low. Luckily for BA, theyíve divided the workforce so successfully that nobody gives a **** about anyone else, so nobody will do anything for the new joiners
zero/zero is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2019, 20:06
  #6068 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Under the table
Posts: 177
How many fingers per hand have you got
Luckily, I wasn't counting the retirements! They'd have left anyway.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 02:17
  #6069 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 585
Zero/zero...what do you suggest the existing employees do?
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 06:28
  #6070 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Age: 42
Posts: 423
I know it’s buried in this thread somewhere but would someone please post payscales for new FO’s and perhaps also an indication of total monthly pay including sector/per diem etc.

Thanks.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 06:59
  #6071 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by zero/zero View Post
....so nobody will do anything for the new joiners
As has been said, by hunterboy, given the state of UK Legislation what action do you suggest?

The company has put an "offer" out there, new joiners are at liberty to take it or leave it...interfering with that process (e.g. Trainers being told not to train the new entrants) could lead to action being taken under restraint of trade (and that would just be for starters).`

Also I'm pretty sure if, in an ideal world, trainers were actually legally able to refuse to train those new entrants we would soon hearing gripes here about BA senior people trying to block newbies from getting into the industry.


Last edited by wiggy; 4th Mar 2019 at 07:21.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 07:24
  #6072 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by hunterboy View Post
Zero/zero...what do you suggest the existing employees do?
I expect theyíll do exactly the same as they did for PP34, BAPS, JSS etc etc. Roll over an take it for the benefit of IAG shareholders.

The result is the relatively weak position the CC are in over the current pay dispute, because the company know that nothing will happen.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 07:46
  #6073 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: chances are, not at home
Posts: 254
Trainers could drastically increase the chop rate, and (perhaps legitimately) claim the financial barriers are decreasing the quality of new recruits. That'll stem the supply and the demand, pretty quick. After all, to get in to Hamble/Oxford was tough, surviving the course was tough..and it was fully funded, (thus not being the preserve of wealthy applicants as it is now).
Joe le Taxi is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2019, 07:47
  #6074 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,162
​​​​​ zero/zero,

Whether you wish to portray this as “rolling over” or not is down to you but do you accept the Company Council’s response to the New Entrant scheme has to take into account Legal realities....this is not France, so BALPA cannot call for e.g. a wildcat strike or selective withdrawal of training to stymie the company’s recruiting plans?


As for the payround, I take it you are aware of the latest state of play regarding this and that three major Unions representing BA employee groups are coordinating their response...and BTW that there is a ballot going on that in the fullness of time might lead to Industrial Action?

Last edited by wiggy; 4th Mar 2019 at 11:54.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 08:02
  #6075 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 94
People can stop volunteering to be trainers or part of the recruitment teams (or resign from those positions if outside of freeze), stop doing the roadshows, stop volunteering for #BASMART, stop accepting ad-hoc sims etc as some examples. Iím sure thereís enough intelligence within the Company Council to come up with something, but of course nobody wants to.

All too easy to just put our hands up and say ďthereís nothing we can doĒ
zero/zero is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2019, 08:39
  #6076 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 401
Same in every company. No shortage of lap dogs willing to do freebies for the company. We have people that come in and work for free doing courses forming part of a go team in the case of a serious event. Have others that sit on technical groups doing loads of invaluable research into various topics facing the operation for the company. Think they might get a rostered day or two here and there but no extra pay and certainly the rostered days will not in anyway reflect the work put in by these pilots. Same people argue till they are blue in the face about pay cuts and rostering. Same people also won't turn off their phone when they aren't due to be contactable. You are only a staff number at the end of the day until you die or retire and will soon be forgotten.
MCDU2 is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2019, 08:40
  #6077 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 544
Zero/zero, BALPA tried doing something about pilots being recruted on inferior terms and conditions with OpenSkies when they thought they had a very legitimate case. They got well and truly burnt by BA and in my opinion there is very little chance they’ll ever do anything to try and block changes to new entrant terms and conditions again. IAG would regard each of those actions you mention as unofficial industrial action, and they’d take legal action against BALPA and the individuals involved, and they’d win. New entrants can improve things by not applying, but at the end of the day, when they apply they accept the terms being offered. If you’re upset about the introduction of an £18k type rating charge, BA isn’t the place for you because I guarantee they’ll knock a heck of lot more than that off your terms and conditions once you are actually employed by them. People here seem to think current BA pilots are sitting fat dumb and happy whilst new entrants are taking all of the cost cutting. They’d be wrong. BA cost cutting is relentless. Willie Walsh described Aer Lingus as the most profitable company within the IAG group recently. It is all about operating margin for him, despite the fact that in this last year, BA produced four times the operating profit of the rest of IAG combined!
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2019, 09:15
  #6078 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: six micro tesla zone
Age: 28
Posts: 370
According to PPJN, Aer Lingus pilots seem to have a better deal than BA pilots; yet they are the most profitable in the IAG group?
MaverickPrime is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2019, 12:07
  #6079 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,162
Firstly as GS-Alpha has correctly pointed out the BACC got it's backside handed to it on a plate when it last tried to interfere with BA's/IAG's recruiting policy.

Secondly we perhaps need to be aware that a Union Rep calling for people not perform voluntary act X,Y or Z could be construed as calling for a work to rule and that in turn could...scratch that, would..... have BA in court claiming illegal industrial (IA) action faster than I can hit "submit reply", unless BALPA had gone through due process for IA, including a ballot.


And no just to be very clear I don't like it, but you need to look back to the eighties to see why that is the state of affairs.

P.S. Just had the SMS reminder...don't forget the pay Ballot...

Last edited by wiggy; 4th Mar 2019 at 14:55.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 12:08
  #6080 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 544
Pilot terms and conditions are not the only thing that determines an airlineís profitability. Sadly though, within BA it is easier to improve margins by attacking terms and conditions than it is to actually address fundamental problems. Also BA has to pay Heathrowís sky high fees.
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