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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 4th Mar 2019, 06:59
  #6061 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,309
Originally Posted by zero/zero View Post
....so nobody will do anything for the new joiners
As has been said, by hunterboy, given the state of UK Legislation what action do you suggest?

The company has put an "offer" out there, new joiners are at liberty to take it or leave it...interfering with that process (e.g. Trainers being told not to train the new entrants) could lead to action being taken under restraint of trade (and that would just be for starters).`

Also I'm pretty sure if, in an ideal world, trainers were actually legally able to refuse to train those new entrants we would soon hearing gripes here about BA senior people trying to block newbies from getting into the industry.


Last edited by wiggy; 4th Mar 2019 at 07:21.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 07:24
  #6062 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 97
Originally Posted by hunterboy View Post
Zero/zero...what do you suggest the existing employees do?
I expect they’ll do exactly the same as they did for PP34, BAPS, JSS etc etc. Roll over an take it for the benefit of IAG shareholders.

The result is the relatively weak position the CC are in over the current pay dispute, because the company know that nothing will happen.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 07:46
  #6063 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Trainers could drastically increase the chop rate, and (perhaps legitimately) claim the financial barriers are decreasing the quality of new recruits. That'll stem the supply and the demand, pretty quick. After all, to get in to Hamble/Oxford was tough, surviving the course was tough..and it was fully funded, (thus not being the preserve of wealthy applicants as it is now).
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 07:47
  #6064 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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​​​​​ zero/zero,

Whether you wish to portray this as “rolling over” or not is down to you but do you accept the Company Council’s response to the New Entrant scheme has to take into account Legal realities....this is not France, so BALPA cannot call for e.g. a wildcat strike or selective withdrawal of training to stymie the company’s recruiting plans?


As for the payround, I take it you are aware of the latest state of play regarding this and that three major Unions representing BA employee groups are coordinating their response...and BTW that there is a ballot going on that in the fullness of time might lead to Industrial Action?

Last edited by wiggy; 4th Mar 2019 at 11:54.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 08:02
  #6065 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 97
People can stop volunteering to be trainers or part of the recruitment teams (or resign from those positions if outside of freeze), stop doing the roadshows, stop volunteering for #BASMART, stop accepting ad-hoc sims etc as some examples. I’m sure there’s enough intelligence within the Company Council to come up with something, but of course nobody wants to.

All too easy to just put our hands up and say “there’s nothing we can do”
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 08:39
  #6066 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 412
Same in every company. No shortage of lap dogs willing to do freebies for the company. We have people that come in and work for free doing courses forming part of a go team in the case of a serious event. Have others that sit on technical groups doing loads of invaluable research into various topics facing the operation for the company. Think they might get a rostered day or two here and there but no extra pay and certainly the rostered days will not in anyway reflect the work put in by these pilots. Same people argue till they are blue in the face about pay cuts and rostering. Same people also won't turn off their phone when they aren't due to be contactable. You are only a staff number at the end of the day until you die or retire and will soon be forgotten.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 08:40
  #6067 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Zero/zero, BALPA tried doing something about pilots being recruted on inferior terms and conditions with OpenSkies when they thought they had a very legitimate case. They got well and truly burnt by BA and in my opinion there is very little chance they’ll ever do anything to try and block changes to new entrant terms and conditions again. IAG would regard each of those actions you mention as unofficial industrial action, and they’d take legal action against BALPA and the individuals involved, and they’d win. New entrants can improve things by not applying, but at the end of the day, when they apply they accept the terms being offered. If you’re upset about the introduction of an £18k type rating charge, BA isn’t the place for you because I guarantee they’ll knock a heck of lot more than that off your terms and conditions once you are actually employed by them. People here seem to think current BA pilots are sitting fat dumb and happy whilst new entrants are taking all of the cost cutting. They’d be wrong. BA cost cutting is relentless. Willie Walsh described Aer Lingus as the most profitable company within the IAG group recently. It is all about operating margin for him, despite the fact that in this last year, BA produced four times the operating profit of the rest of IAG combined!
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 09:15
  #6068 (permalink)  
 
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According to PPJN, Aer Lingus pilots seem to have a better deal than BA pilots; yet they are the most profitable in the IAG group?
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 12:07
  #6069 (permalink)  
 
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Firstly as GS-Alpha has correctly pointed out the BACC got it's backside handed to it on a plate when it last tried to interfere with BA's/IAG's recruiting policy.

Secondly we perhaps need to be aware that a Union Rep calling for people not perform voluntary act X,Y or Z could be construed as calling for a work to rule and that in turn could...scratch that, would..... have BA in court claiming illegal industrial (IA) action faster than I can hit "submit reply", unless BALPA had gone through due process for IA, including a ballot.


And no just to be very clear I don't like it, but you need to look back to the eighties to see why that is the state of affairs.

P.S. Just had the SMS reminder...don't forget the pay Ballot...

Last edited by wiggy; 4th Mar 2019 at 14:55.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 12:08
  #6070 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
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Pilot terms and conditions are not the only thing that determines an airline’s profitability. Sadly though, within BA it is easier to improve margins by attacking terms and conditions than it is to actually address fundamental problems. Also BA has to pay Heathrow’s sky high fees.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 16:10
  #6071 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MaverickPrime View Post
According to PPJN, Aer Lingus pilots seem to have a better deal than BA pilots; yet they are the most profitable in the IAG group?
You might want to throw the gross numbers for EI into an online tax calculator then look at the cost of living in Dublin and form a different opinion. 52% tax for not a lot does not make up for the guinness I can assure you.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 19:14
  #6072 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
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this is not France, so BALPA cannot call for e.g. a wildcat strike or selective withdrawal of training to stymie the company’s recruiting plans?
No but they could call a ballot and start the process of (perfectly legal) industrial action if they wanted. Doing nothing is a not a result of UK strike law, it's a decision made by pilots and their union representation. Tbh the reality is an 18k type rating is probably not top of the list of grievances, they'll still have cadets queuing round the block. But yet again it's an example of new entrant terms being lowered with seemingly no protest.

I don't work in aviation (unfortunately) but I know that if my company decided to make all new graduates pay upfront for their own training, they'd a) have no applicants and b) cause a riot amongst current staff. Why the same logic doesn't apply in the airlines is beyond me.

Last edited by ManUtd1999; 4th Mar 2019 at 21:03.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 03:50
  #6073 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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How do you call a strike for pilots that haven’t joined the company yet? Once they sign on the dotted line and accept the t&c’s, including the 18k fee, how do you justify industrial action for something the NEP has just accepted? If BA charged existing pilots for the type rating I could see legally justifiable motive for I.A. In short, caveat emptor.
‘Incidentally, with the 5 year type freeze, arguably pilots are paying for their type rating indirectly.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 04:09
  #6074 (permalink)  
 
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Man Utd - agreed. Surprising how most are so quick to throw hands up and say nothing can be done. If a ballot for industrial action were to be called on this issue along with other outstanding issues it could be quickly sorted. Talk of wildcat strikes or mass sickouts a la France is a hysterical comparison. Work to rule over peak summer period anybody?

Sadly is doesn’t sound like the will is there to resolve this issue and BA wil take the chisel and chip away at something else next. This profession is being hugely let down by the “I’m alright Jack” attitude.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 05:03
  #6075 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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ManU, so rioting aside, what else would you and your fellow staff colleagues do to protect the T&C’s of people that haven’t yet signed on the dotted line and therefore don’t have T&C’s to protect?
There seem to be a lot of key board warriors on PPRuNe nowadays. I’d be interested to know the % of them that have put an X on a strike ballot and how many have actually walked.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 06:17
  #6076 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK
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Originally Posted by zero/zero View Post
People can …stop volunteering for #BASMART
Ah. Problem here. The Twitter brand ambassadors have spent the last week claiming the modular route now being open is a win - no mention of up front type rating costs.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 06:37
  #6077 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Right Engine View Post


Ah. Problem here. The Twitter brand ambassadors have spent the last week claiming the modular route now being open is a win - no mention of up front type rating costs.
Yep, if posters think all the members of the instagram brigade and similar are going to listen to calls to stop volunteering they are naive- they have a lot invested in portraying the whole lifestyle in a positive light.

There is a similar problem with the work to rule idea (plus it is very difficult to remain cohesive since it is easy for a company to pressure individuals) which is why the three Unions involved at BA seem to be headed in a particular direction.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 06:55
  #6078 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Barcelona
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There are over 4000 pilots in BA? If BALPA balloted on a work to rule you would always have the social media heroes and the like doing their own thing. But you would have a significant majority working to rule. Don’t underestimate the impact that can have on a company’s bottom line.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 07:29
  #6079 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Originally Posted by The Mixmaster View Post
There are over 4000 pilots in BA? If BALPA balloted on a work to rule you would always have the social media heroes and the like doing their own thing. But you would have a significant majority working to rule. Don’t underestimate the impact that can have on a company’s bottom line.








TBH over the years the Reps, former lot or this current tranche, have always maintained a work to rule would be ineffective...define “work to rule for” starters..even issuing a call for people not to volunteer has it’s risks....If you have the chance when next in T5 grab a passing rep and ask about this, it is interesting...and TBH amongst other things it gives you a bit of a depressing insight into human nature, (well, some people’s nature).

Now....back to the new qualified pilot scheme...looking at Yammer rightly or wrongly there are some non-flight Ops employees with relatives wanting to get into BA who see the new scheme as a good thing (somebody in the family can obviously afford the 18k)..so no doubt many outside BA also see it as a good thing.....which brings into play (again) the point that BALPA campaiging against this scheme would be used by some to demonstrate how out of touch “we” are with those that want to join the industry as pilots.

Looking at what might be coming down the road later this year at BA I’ll certainly go with the Union, but IMHO running a single issue campaign over the new entrant scheme is simply a non starter and is not going to work.

Last edited by wiggy; 5th Mar 2019 at 07:43.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 09:18
  #6080 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Barcelona
Age: 36
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post


TBH over the years the Reps, former lot or this current tranche, have always maintained a work to rule would be ineffective...define “work to rule for” starters..even issuing a call for people not to volunteer has it’s risks....If you have the chance when next in T5 grab a passing rep and ask about this, it is interesting...and TBH amongst other things it gives you a bit of a depressing insight into human nature, (well, some people’s nature).

Now....back to the new qualified pilot scheme...looking at Yammer rightly or wrongly there are some non-flight Ops employees with relatives wanting to get into BA who see the new scheme as a good thing (somebody in the family can obviously afford the 18k)..so no doubt many outside BA also see it as a good thing.....which brings into play (again) the point that BALPA campaiging against this scheme would be used by some to demonstrate how out of touch “we” are with those that want to join the industry as pilots.

Looking at what might be coming down the road later this year at BA I’ll certainly go with the Union, but IMHO running a single issue campaign over the new entrant scheme is simply a non starter and is not going to work.

As I outlined above make it a multi issue campaign. Take your pick. Yes there are individuals who will disregard results of a ballot. Even if just 50% of the body adhered to a work to rule then the leverage created would be significant. The alternative is to do nothing and watch the chisel continue to chip away at t and c.
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