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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 15th Dec 2018, 12:51
  #5601 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 515
Originally Posted by MikeAlpha320 View Post
Do some overtime? Maybe Rex has a life outside of BA One of the worst posts I've seen on this forum actually- and I've posted some pretty stupid things myself.

Of course being junior now is more difficult than before. The MOA (SH) has been torn to shreds, we work EASA FTLs and the company is constantly trying to squeeze more productivity. Were people flying 900/pa 10/15/20 years ago? JAR FTLs certainly more restrictive than EASA, pay was better (relative to PP34) and less 'efficient' rosters. We all join knowing we'll be junior etc- that doesn't mean a little sympathy/compassion sometimes might go a long way. If you are sat complaining that you had it just as bad as we do now why are you not a bit more understanding? Perhaps if the response wasn't 'I had to do it so now you do' the unity in BA might actually improve. The arrogance and total lack of compassion for some of your colleagues is really quite sad. No-one is asking you to give up all your 'hard-earned' weekends - rather that we pull together as a work force and gain back some of the ground BA pilots seem to have lost.

It won't be that long until PP34 are the majority - BARP are majority and those 'junior' to you will be the majority in the company. Shall we start lobbying for PP34 only pay deals? Enjoy being sat up on your senior perch... its a long way down.

Perhaps your polite request to 'leave aviation' to Rex could be considered by yourself.
My overtime comment wasn’t serious, neither was root canal....

You seem to have me as someone senior, I’m very much not, by choice. All weekends worked (hopefully on lates now though with JSS, not really in trip line territory) and BARP contributor from the start. Redundant from previous outfit too if that helps, so you could say I was ‘forced’ to join BA as well. But I won’t use that term, I made a choice given my situation. Neither will new joiner friends of mine, they chose BA and are perfectly happy with how the seniority system works. PP34 is a bitter pill I get that (so was giving up NAPS for those senior folk, for a couple of extra % on DC scheme) but the alternative may have been worse. BA ain’t all that and I’m in the fight to make it better, but if I’m fed up and miserable to the extent of some of the people I fly with make out, I’d definitely consider moving on. Or change fleets/seats/destinations/base.




OBK! is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 13:40
  #5602 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,632
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post


The regulations talk about people whose journey to work usually exceeds 90 minutes. BA have targeted people whose journey takes less than this, I know that for a fact. A few Amsterdam commuters have received phone calls for instance. easyJet did not audit staff travel to see when people were arriving in their bases and, to the best of my knowledge, still do not so letís not pretend that this is mandated by the regulator.

Itís discriminatory towards a single segment of the workforce (ie the commuter who travels by air) because, short of hiring private investigators, BA are not going to be monitoring people who drive to work.

Iíve flown with a captain who drove down same morning from Manchester for an early LHR report. Yet the commuter who spends 8h 52m in base overnight having flown in that evening from Amsterdam gets the sh*tty phone call whilst he walks around with impunity. There is nothing right about that scenario and yet it is going on all the time.
Rex the 90 minutes assumes a car journey. One of the AOC's mentioned above did a trial of crew members driving in a car simulator after a night flight. It filmed them as they started micro sleeping. So your correct the Captain from Manchester is the biggest risk unless your driving for 4 hours after your plane home. BA's operation is completely different depending on what flights / schedules are being operated. Lets say your doing a 2100 to JFK - will you be flying in mid afternoon and hanging around the crew room for hours or will you fly in the morning and be tucked up in bed having a nap before the flight. BA can't mandate that only you under crew members responsibilities and your professionalism can.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 14:14
  #5603 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 711
Assumes a car journey yes I agree. However seeing as there’s absolutely nothing written down as to what constitutes an acceptable commute by air, you have to assume the same applies. The problem is as Wiggy has said in the past, so I have to credit him with this particular example, you could get up at the crack of sparrows to fly into Heathrow and sit around the CRC for 12 hours before operating a long haul flight in the evening and tick every box of what EASA says constitutes proper rest, yet we know doing that you’d be laughably tired. What’s wrong with treating us like proper professionals and allowing us to judge what is sensible? Yes some people take the mick but take those individuals to one side and deal with them. Don’t band them together with all of us and treat the rest of us like naughty children. That’s all I’m arguing. I’ve done a drive from Birmingham to Heathrow to go to work (90 mins) and I’ve taken a flight from Jersey to Gatwick to go to work (I think everyone knows who I am by now) and I know which journey I felt more tired after (rhetorical).
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 20:58
  #5604 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 8
At a risk of upsetting people on here and bringing this thread back to what it really is all about (Direct Entry), Iíve just been told Iím in the hold pool for the A320, to be based at LGW or LHR.

Can anyone indicate how long people are staying in the pool for at present? Also, which of the two bases is most likely to be awarded?

Thanks for the help!
VOR.DME is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 21:14
  #5605 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: England
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by VOR.DME View Post
At a risk of upsetting people on here and bringing this thread back to what it really is all about (Direct Entry), Iíve just been told Iím in the hold pool for the A320, to be based at LGW or LHR.

Can anyone indicate how long people are staying in the pool for at present? Also, which of the two bases is most likely to be awarded?

Thanks for the help!
Was in the pool for a few weeks before being lifted out for 320 at lhr.

​​​​​​As you were.
Thegreenmachine is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 23:19
  #5606 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: London
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by Enzo999 View Post


You seem to be completely missing the points some are trying to make. Not everyone that is Junior in BA is a ďyouthĒ. The man up boy I had to live through it attitude really irritates me. I joined BA with 16 years worth of Airline flying behind me, not because I wanted to but because I had to, not everyone who joins BA does so out of a desperate desire to wear the hat. To be told all you previous experience and time has been completed wasted is a bitter pill to swallow. Remember BA are not doing us a favour giving us jobs, they asked us to join, to be told you are less important and hence rewarded less and expepected to live with s#it jut because you have worked less time BA is offensive to me.

If you join BA in your early 20s then maybe you can afford to waste 10 years of your life, but when you are 35 and have young children itís much more painful. Children only grow up once and missing out on their lives Is very painful to me, being told to ďsuck it upĒ or ďleaveĒ is not very helpful and in actual fact goes to speak of the toxic environment we work in. I for one donít care if I get weekends off when my children are 20!

People on here constantly compare what we do to other high skilled professions and certainty expected to be rewarded as one. So tell me when a Surgeon leaves a hospital doesnít he suddenly then become a junior doctor and is expected to work every weekend? Does a senior partner at a law firm have to start at the bottom on sub standard pay just because he goes to work at a new firm? Would love to see you tell those guys to ďsuck it upĒ.






Enzo, are you sure you joined BA with 16 years of airline flying behind you? Thought you were at flightschool with me back in 2005/06. Anyway, I completely agree with you. I joined BA longhaul from an easyJet command with a young family and cannot express strongly enough how difficult life can be joining BA in those circumstances. As a warning to anyone considering joining if you're married with kids - think long and hard. Money is of secondary importance and lifestyle is of primary importance. If you're single, enjoy the opportunities BA has to offer. If you're not, you may well end up regretting your decision. I did a 180 and returned to easyJet after a few months of fatigue and stress that would undoubtedly have lead to (and this is no exaggeration) being at best on the edge of depression and I haven't regretted my decision for a second. The introduction of JSS will only make things worse. I feel a different individual back at Easy despite the challenges of a shorthaul roster. The 3-4 days off between blocks of work and fixed roster are fantastic in terms of being able to recover.

Please try and resist the temptation to join BA to call yourself Speedbird or join because you consider it a 'prestigious' job unless you're absolutely sure it's what you want. Only when 5-7 years in as a LH FO or 25 years in as a LH Capt will you reap the lifestyle rewards. That said, my time at BA was a pleasure in terms of the training and the colleagues I met. Great bunch of guys and girls who treat you as an adult.
tommytailwind is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2018, 13:52
  #5607 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 705
Please try and resist the temptation to join BA to call yourself Speedbird or join because you consider it a 'prestigious' job unless you're absolutely sure it's what you want. Only when 5-7 years in as a LH FO or 25 years in as a LH Capt will you reap the lifestyle rewards. That said, my time at BA was a pleasure in terms of the training and the colleagues I met. Great bunch of guys and girls who treat you as an adult.
Very good concise advice.

Regarding JSS. There is a huge amount of negativity out there. Put simply, if you want to write your own roster and have lots of weekends off then you will perpetually be pissed off with life as an airline pilot. Whoever you work for. Most negative reviews are down to a perceived loss of control over what you are bidding for as we now lack visibility of the actual lines of work that are on offer. The principle of seniority hasnít changed though, and the simple rule is the lower down you are the less control you will have regardless of how the work is bid for.

In BA if you are junior you will, to some degree, shovel manure for a few years, depending on how quickly recruitment takes place and which fleet you are on. Then you will have a series of choices to make over your career that will affect your seniority. If you choose DEP LH or an early command on SH you will be consigning yourself to being junior for a longer period of time than the ďaverageĒ.

None of this is news. Itís fairly common knowledge for new recruits if you do your homework.

As Tommytailwind has said be careful with your reasons for joining. I applaud anyone with the wherewithal to quit and go back to ezy etc if they find it really doesnít work for them. If you find life here isnít for you, look elsewhere. I agree that it is rubbish at the bottom. BA management donít think so because people are queuing up to join and not enough vote with their feet when they find the job doesnít work for them, because when it comes down to it admitting you have stuffed up and going back to an ex-employer cap in hand is difficult.

In summary, I really donít think, from a new joiners point of view, that a lot has changed. Weíve had one roster under JSS. I do however understand the gripes and confusion from more established pilots. It will take time to figure out if things are better or worse than life under the previous system. My feeling is it wonít make much difference. We still have the same amount of work to cover. The variable will ALWAYS be how many pilots we have to cover that work. How we bid for it and who gets what has always been driven by seniority. It still is.
BitMoreRightRudder is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2018, 16:43
  #5608 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Within 3 hours of a suitable alternate
Posts: 63
OK I'll pip in.

What is this "Toxic Atmosphere" that a few post about? Is it the management, the training department, or fellow crew?

Nearly 30 years in I still remember joining with many thousand hours at the bottom of the most senior fleet, twas the way that it is was then and always has been, perhaps because we didn't have the internet there wasn't so much bitching.

Just to add in all those years there is only one guy that I wouldn't shake hands with after a trip.
Capt Ecureuil is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2018, 16:46
  #5609 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by VOR.DME View Post
At a risk of upsetting people on here and bringing this thread back to what it really is all about (Direct Entry), Iíve just been told Iím in the hold pool for the A320, to be based at LGW or LHR.

Can anyone indicate how long people are staying in the pool for at present? Also, which of the two bases is most likely to be awarded?

Thanks for the help!
I got word that I passed the sim on the Monday and got called for A320 Heathrow that Thursday. Donít know if thereís any particular base that you are more likely to get. I have heard of people getting offered one, and after asking for it they got the other. Hope that helps. Take care!
Mansnothot is online now  
Old 16th Dec 2018, 17:10
  #5610 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,384
Originally Posted by Capt Ecureuil View Post
OK I'll pip in.

What is this "Toxic Atmosphere" that a few post about? Is it the management, the training department, or fellow crew?

Nearly 30 years in I still remember joining with many thousand hours at the bottom of the most senior fleet, twas the way that it is was then and always has been, perhaps because we didn't have the internet there wasn't so much bitching.

Just to add in all those years there is only one guy that I wouldn't shake hands with after a trip.
Wasn’t me was it

Seriously....good point about the intergripe.....I think the big irritant ATM is managements never ending bearing down on some aspects of the day job and what some perceive as the hectoring of the line staff whilst they seem OTOH to be ignoring things that really do need fixing but don’t get it done because doing so would cost 10 pence....

As for previous comments about senority and JSS...There seems to several different sides to this and I think the point made about some people expecting every weekend off is very valid. The way I’ve heard it in the last few days is some of the community got their heads around the JSS process early on / got lucky/ constructed bids iaw with their senority and associated expectations and achieved rosters that probably were a match to anything they got under Bidline, if not better. Some of the absolute disasters might have been finger trouble/people being stupidly optimistic and then not having a realistic backstop (if that is not too controversial a term these days) which meant when those didn’t work out they got dumped on, and then there is the issue of those that were previously on Blindlines finding they are now being rostered to a full months flying...I do understand some of the angry reactions I have read elsewhere but I’ve spoken to a lot of people who were happy with the result...I still think it will need until at least Easter until we see how it will work long term.

The really big thing to understand is the senority aspect of working at BA is not going away any time soon.

Last edited by wiggy; 16th Dec 2018 at 18:37.
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Old 16th Dec 2018, 19:13
  #5611 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Age: 40
Posts: 114
Have a few mates who are JSS trainers and got another mate who is a BALPA rep. Both say 9 out of 10 are happy with what they got given in January with their first JSS bid. From the 10% who are not happy around 75% made an error in their bid or simply didn't put in the work to fully understand JSS.

I guess it always the 2.5% who weren't happy who scream the loudest. I for one really appreciate seniority, it makes things fair and transparent. Have seen it in previous airlines who rather took Direct Entry Captains than promoting their own staff. In BA at least loyalty is rewarded and everybody begins at the bottom of the long list and works him/herself up. I still remember we got told on day one "In BA you only have to be junior once" this is so true. With that in mind it makes me laugh some choose to be junior for a prolonged period with their career choices and then start complaining about it. I doubt they will get much empathy from anybody they fly with.
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Old 16th Dec 2018, 20:15
  #5612 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Dublin
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by Mansnothot View Post


I got word that I passed the sim on the Monday and got called for A320 Heathrow that Thursday. Donít know if thereís any particular base that you are more likely to get. I have heard of people getting offered one, and after asking for it they got the other. Hope that helps. Take care!
similar timescale for me - took about 2 weeks to get the result of sim assessment and from then less than a week in the pool.

Last edited by The Foss; 17th Mar 2019 at 18:58.
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Old 16th Dec 2018, 21:18
  #5613 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Jumbo2 View Post
Have a few mates who are JSS trainers and got another mate who is a BALPA rep. Both say 9 out of 10 are happy with what they got given in January with their first JSS bid. From the 10% who are not happy around 75% made an error in their bid or simply didn't put in the work to fully understand JSS.

I guess it always the 2.5% who weren't happy who scream the loudest. I for one really appreciate seniority, it makes things fair and transparent. Have seen it in previous airlines who rather took Direct Entry Captains than promoting their own staff. In BA at least loyalty is rewarded and everybody begins at the bottom of the long list and works him/herself up. I still remember we got told on day one "In BA you only have to be junior once" this is so true. With that in mind it makes me laugh some choose to be junior for a prolonged period with their career choices and then start complaining about it. I doubt they will get much empathy from anybody they fly with.
You only have to be junior once? I guess that is true if you wish to stay in the same fleet and seat all of your career.

I believe that your comments about JSS are just as accurate for many of us. It is early days for JSS but I think that in time most of us will bitterly regret giving up BidLine, just as we have regretted so many other changes over the last 10 years.
Pickled is offline  
Old 17th Dec 2018, 07:14
  #5614 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Age: 40
Posts: 114
Originally Posted by Pickled View Post
You only have to be junior once? I guess that is true if you wish to stay in the same fleet and seat all of your career.
Not really, what they meant with it at the time was you are only junior when you join the airline after that it is by choice. You don't need to jump at the first command opportunity or go straight into LH after your SH engagement freeze is over after 5 years. You could stay 1 or 2 extra years on the fleet in a senior position before going LH. Having said that with the 800+ pilots recruited over the last few years, of which a fair few went straight onto LH, if you move to LH after your engagement freeze is over you would be around 75-80% on any LH fleet at the moment.

I hear what you say about JSS, it wasn't my choice either, but the majority has voted and unfortunately JSS is reality now. Being a JSS critic myself I have to admit I was impressed with my January roster. But I do think there is still a fair bit of work to do on the inhibitors to make the (mainly LH) seniority gradient similar as what we had with Bidline.

Last edited by Jumbo2; 17th Dec 2018 at 07:27.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 10:27
  #5615 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 38
Posts: 382
Jumbo2. I have to agree that the seniority system is about the only one which works. Start at the bottom and work your way up. You earn the opportunity for a seat change or command but you still have to prove you are capable.

What I disagree with is how seniority is used to such a extent that it so negatively affects the day to day lives of a good 20% of any status. Yes there should be a gradient but that gradient is very steep. We have a problem getting people to take commands because of it.

There are simple solutions which could resolve this but the top rules and there is no appetite to do anything.

Some of us would love to ďstart at the bottom and work our way upĒ the reality is we stay at the bottom forever unless we give up our command. That is not a fair system at all.

bex88 is offline  
Old 17th Dec 2018, 11:08
  #5616 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: WILTSHIRE
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by bex88 View Post


Some of us would love to ďstart at the bottom and work our way upĒ the reality is we stay at the bottom forever unless we give up our command. That is not a fair system at all.

Like all of the ex BMI Boys and Girls who remain at the bottom.........
red9 is offline  
Old 17th Dec 2018, 11:26
  #5617 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 362
Originally Posted by red9 View Post
Like all of the ex BMI Boys and Girls who remain at the bottom.........
Apart from the ones who jumped the seniority to get Longhaul commands. There are some on 747 and 787. I believe there may even be some into the A380 this year.
Tay Cough is offline  
Old 17th Dec 2018, 11:49
  #5618 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: England
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by red9 View Post
Like all of the ex BMI Boys and Girls who remain at the bottom.........
Not quite true is it Red9...

From day one the ex bmi boys & girls have been able to join RHS LH & therefore leave the bmi bubble... indeed I watched through my 5 year engagement freeze junior pilots do exactly that... & get commands on LH&SH! Frustrating for me yes but that was the deal. Any ex bmi Pilot bidding for a protected command also knew the deal & therefore would enter the bmi bubble, wether thatís fare or not thatís the deal. So to assume there was no choice is frankly wrong, it was their Choice!

However in 2016 Commands went so junior that a group of ex bmi pilots achieved an aspirational position, I along with many feel they should be in the BA list & why BALPA doesnít correct this I donít know... I guess because it doesnít suit them & by them I mean IG. Iíve also been told that itís to do with MPE , but thatís a load of pony because as people eventually retire it will become impossible to maintain that MPE. Donít forget it was the ex bmi Pilots that scuppered the last JSS vote too!

Red if you want the bmi bubble to be disbanded then be my guest to complain to BALPA, weíre all BA pilots which means we all adhere to the MOA & all have a MSL position. I respect the negative aspects of the integration deal, so should everyone.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 13:23
  #5619 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 38
Posts: 382
BASHLH. The protected command thing is all very grey and mostly not covered in the agreement. 100% spot on with the 2016 commands though.

I just wish it could be sorted. Itís nearly 7 years now and it is still paralysis. The only way out is from the top to take a LH command (< 2 % ) of LH commands or give up your command.

Anyway I repeat myself again and again. I think we agree on the subject.


bex88 is offline  
Old 17th Dec 2018, 17:09
  #5620 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: united kingdom
Posts: 173
It is true The ex BMI could go right hand seat and go long haul.
Believe it or not not everyone wants long haul despite more money etc etc, so the only choice they have is to go RHS short haul if they want to leave the bubble,
I take my. Hat off to the FOís who chose to take command and re enter the bubble to forward their career which I believe is what we all probably wanted when we first started out. I do get it as to why so many long haul pilots just stay where they are with many retiring in the RHS.

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