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Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 12th Dec 2018, 19:51
  #5561 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 362
Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
Any more horror stories from the first JSS run?
Unless you’re in the top third of your status, plenty.
Tay Cough is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2018, 20:48
  #5562 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 281
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
It’s discriminatory towards a single segment of the workforce (ie the commuter who travels by air) because, short of hiring private investigators, BA are not going to be monitoring people who drive to work.
It would take a competent IT analyst 10 minutes or less to pull out the home addresses/payroll details/beneficiary address (likely spouse) of every BA pilot with a UK address and plot the crow flies distance from LHR/LGW to their home postcode. Add another few hours to feed the postcode into something that would estimate driving distance and time for a, say, 6am report from home postcode. BAs cargo division probably have some code that derives driving time/distance from base to any European address.

G
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 20:52
  #5563 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 711
Originally Posted by groundbum View Post
It would take a competent IT analyst 10 minutes or less to pull out the home addresses/payroll details/beneficiary address (likely spouse) of every BA pilot with a UK address and plot the crow flies distance from LHR/LGW to their home postcode. Add another few hours to feed the postcode into something that would estimate driving distance and time for a, say, 6am report from home postcode. BAs cargo division probably have some code that derives driving time/distance from base to any European address.

G
One simple issue with that, just because that’s where their registered address is, doesn’t mean that that’s where they’ve come from that morning/day. People can and do book hotels within spitting distance of T5 (information unavailable to BA due to all sorts of data protection laws). Short of fitting a GPS tracker to everyone’s car and monitoring that car in and out of the car park, it is impossible to know how anyone has made it into work that day unless they’ve travelled with British Airways on a flight.
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 22:49
  #5564 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Under the table
Posts: 183
Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post


Unless you’re in the top third of your status, plenty.
There are quite a few enviable rosters at the bottom of the list too. I'm going to go with the the learning curve of a new system throwing up shockers everywhere, give it a few months to bed in and for people to learn how to bid properly then see what happens.
Stocious is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 01:08
  #5565 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 903
Originally Posted by Doug E Style View Post


I don’t know much about 380 ops so can I ask how much of that would be bunk time?

I’m only familiar with LR ops on B744.
A380 777 787 etc. just as fatiguing at 90/100 hrs a month whatever the type, and ops, ie SH out of Lhr.
Not sustainable on a continuous basis, and soon be reduced to regulating your fatigue by sickness etc.
cessnapete is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 07:33
  #5566 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Age: 40
Posts: 114
Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post


Unless you’re in the top third of your status, plenty.
Not to sure about that statement. Of the people who contacted BALPA only approximately 1 out of 10 wasn't happy with the outcome of their JSS bidding. Quiet often because of a bidding mistake or misunderstanding because they simple didn't put in the work to learn and understand the new system even though plenty of opportunity was given to do so.
Jumbo2 is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 08:05
  #5567 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,384
Originally Posted by speed freek View Post

The senior guys grumble about...

The senior guys grumble...

The senior guys grumble about the invasion of privacy regarding commuting. The fact is some people were taking the proverbial, the company realised they could be held accountable and have issued guidance. Many people commute from around the UK, Ireland, France, Netherlands, Spain, many people have no issues. The latest missive saying you should be in the UK the day before departure to be properly rested is no different to my previous employer saying they want you back in base the day before a block of lates.
BA is an “equal opportunity to grumble” company. I’m pretty senior, I have have heard a lots of “junior guys” grumbling, you OTOH say you are fairly junior ....funnily enough you have heard lots “senior guys” grumbling - I rest my case (and my aching back)....

On the specific issue of “commuting”: I gather the ability to commute from overseas was part of the recruiting team’s sales pitch when they put on their road shows in the not too distant past...(oh yes and apparently they also mentioned a “world leading rostering system”)...Guess What - I heard a grumble from a “junior guy” about that recently.

BTW I’m struggling to find any missive from BA saying you should be back in the U.K. the day before departure.

Overall though you are right, there is still good stuff in BA, but people do need to be aware of what they are letting themselves and possibly their family in for.




Last edited by wiggy; 13th Dec 2018 at 09:08.
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 09:09
  #5568 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 33
After more than 20 years in BA I am a reasonably junior LH skipper. My first JSS roster is a disaster, far far worse than under Bidline. It may be another 10 years or so before I become senior enough to get a decent lifestyle again.

Think long and hard before committing yourself to joining BA. It has its clear advantages but also a lot of negatives...and the negatives have been steadily increasing whilst the advantages have been quite drastically eroded.

Timing is everything and anyone joining now will be behind the huge recruitment campaign of the last few years.
Pickled is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 09:22
  #5569 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 38
Posts: 382
Pickled. I am sure someone will be along shortly to remind you that it was your choice to take a command and you could have stayed in the RHS bla bla bla.

Pickled speaks volumes of our system. Someone who has been in BA for 20 plus years and still finds themselves junior and with worse rostering than in the past.

With 27 posts Pickled is not “a moaner” but someone who gets on with it. BA seems to be a great place to join if you have little desire to progress beyond the RHS anytime within the next 20 plus years.

What I would say Pickled is while I don’t know exactly what you wanted on your roster I am super junior on my status and my bid reflected that. I went into fall back but I did not get completely shafted because of the construction of my later bid groups. I am sure a JSS trainer could get you from a disaster to something more palletable. Again that’s my new positive side coming out.......sorry 🙄
bex88 is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 09:40
  #5570 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London
Age: 30
Posts: 38
Does anyone know if BALPA/BA are still working on tweaking the JSS seniority gradient? Looking at January rosters it would seem fair to say you will literally -no exaggeration to say- never see a weekend off work for years beyond your few (6?) golden days for the junior folk...quite alarming for potential new joiners...
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 09:51
  #5571 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,384
Originally Posted by Paperplanes89 View Post
Does anyone know if BALPA/BA are still working on tweaking the JSS seniority gradient? Looking at January rosters it would seem fair to say you will literally -no exaggeration to say- never see a weekend off work for years beyond your few (6?) golden days for the junior folk...quite alarming for potential new joiners...
Dunno...I’ve heard so many stories about stuffed up rosters and good rosters from both senior and junior grumblers, So maybe a lot ATM is down to finger trouble and a lack of familiarity with the system (TBF the company interface is pants). I think it will be Easter until we see how it is really going to work. That said when I was a junior grumbler (RHS and LHS) I do recall weekends off being in short supply, both on Blindlines and Triplines. I think my record run of working weekends as a junior TLH (in the LHS) was 6 months without a weekend off other than during leave.

I suspect JSS made some a bit overly optimistic about what it would deliver.
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 10:13
  #5572 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Uk
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post


Dunno...I’ve heard so many stories about stuffed up rosters and good rosters from both senior and junior grumblers, So maybe a lot ATM is down to finger trouble and a lack of familiarity with the system (TBF the company interface is pants). I think it will be Easter until we see how it is really going to work. That said when I was a junior grumbler (RHS and LHS) I do recall weekends off being in short supply, both on Blindlines and Triplines. I think my record run of working weekends as a junior TLH (in the LHS) was 6 months without a weekend off other than during leave.

I suspect JSS made some a bit overly optimistic about what it would deliver.
I've done 14 years in BA now and have seen terms and conditions erode but I don't and I hope don't negotiate a new seniority bidding gradient. I, like most was the same on joining thinking it not fair to miss out on weekends and some of my colleagues almost demanding that they should have weekends off and more control over their rostering but it is a fair system, even now. We were ALL junior when we joined, we have ALL missed out on weekends, parties, family time but as your seniority grows, you gain more control. That is a fair system and the reward for loyalty and years put in. That is what you are or have joined. I get tired of newbies coming in and saying, you don't understand, it's not fair, it's alright for you but rest assured my first 6 years in were very much the same. Suck it up.
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 10:32
  #5573 (permalink)  
MOA
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Here and there
Posts: 65
As a junior (~3years) LH DEP (80% ish on my fleet), I made sure I fully understood JSS. I put the work in, spoke to the trainers and put a lot of careful time and effort into my bid. I was awarded Bid Group 19...... I am working 'fully' over every weekend apart from one Golden Day. My third BG was feasible but Global Constraints trashed everything. In the last 12 months, the worst I have had is working 3 of 4 weekends and that was due to being 'shafted' by pre-ops (note to self - never tick 'drop below clash'...). On average, and this is not down to swapping, I have 1-2 completely free weekends a month and working another 1/2 a weekend. If Global Constraints keep acting in the way they are, it is untenable for me (I'm a single Dad and can't work that many weekends). I have a plan to leave BA if this continues which I have to enact in May. The clock is ticking for me.

My take-away (yes it is early doors) is think long and hard if you have family commitments and you are joining direct onto LH. You'll stay junior for a lot longer than SH. Also, think when you'll likely get a command and what your commitments will be then too. You'll be junior for a while again...
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 10:42
  #5574 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by Panel3 View Post
. I get tired of newbies coming in and saying, you don't understand, it's not fair, it's alright for you but rest assured my first 6 years in were very much the same. Suck it up.
mmm I don’t know about the integrity of that statement. Your junior years aren’t exactly the same are they?

You’ll never have been junior under JSS. A PP24’s early pay years will never be the same as a PP34’s early years. Just examples of why one generations early years aren’t necessarily totally the same as the following generations junior years.


Wireless is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 10:46
  #5575 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: WILTSHIRE
Posts: 82
Panel3:
I've done 14 years in BA now and have seen terms and conditions erode but I don't and I hope don't negotiate a new seniority bidding gradient. I, like most was the same on joining thinking it not fair to miss out on weekends and some of my colleagues almost demanding that they should have weekends off and more control over their rostering but it is a fair system, even now. We were ALL junior when we joined, we have ALL missed out on weekends, parties, family time but as your seniority grows, you gain more control. That is a fair system and the reward for loyalty and years put in. That is what you are or have joined. I get tired of newbies coming in and saying, you don't understand, it's not fair, it's alright for you but rest assured my first 6 years in were very much the same. Suck it up.
I have nearly seven years in and remain at 80% MSL........
RexBanner:
One simple issue with that, just because that’s where their registered address is, doesn’t mean that that’s where they’ve come from that morning/day. People can and do book hotels within spitting distance of T5 (information unavailable to BA due to all sorts of data protection laws). Short of fitting a GPS tracker to everyone’s car and monitoring that car in and out of the car park, it is impossible to know how anyone has made it into work that day unless they’ve travelled with British Airways on a flight.
They are tracking the company issued ipad.

Wiggy:
BTW I’m struggling to find any missive from BA saying you should be back in the U.K. the day before departure.
A friend received a phone call from bizarrely a traing manager questioning his hotline flight ( returning from holiday in Europe ie not LH ) when he had an early report the next day - It wasnt very friendly.
red9 is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 11:35
  #5576 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,384
Originally Posted by red9 View Post
Wiggy:

A friend received a phone call from bizarrely a traing manager questioning his hotline flight ( returning from holiday in Europe ie not LH ) when he had an early report the next day - It wasnt very friendly.
Yep, I was aware those phone calls were happening, I was just interested in the claim made that there was a “missive” - i.e. Admin Notice or similar .
wiggy is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 11:36
  #5577 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 711
Originally Posted by Panel3 View Post
I've done 14 years in BA now and have seen terms and conditions erode but I don't and I hope don't negotiate a new seniority bidding gradient. I, like most was the same on joining thinking it not fair to miss out on weekends and some of my colleagues almost demanding that they should have weekends off and more control over their rostering but it is a fair system, even now. We were ALL junior when we joined, we have ALL missed out on weekends, parties, family time but as your seniority grows, you gain more control. That is a fair system and the reward for loyalty and years put in. That is what you are or have joined. I get tired of newbies coming in and saying, you don't understand, it's not fair, it's alright for you but rest assured my first 6 years in were very much the same. Suck it up.
Ah yes the I suffered it so you must argument. If the human race had that attitude we’d have never progressed beyond the dark ages. Alexander Fleming’s history could be very different, “well guys I’ve discovered this fantastic medicine that protects against the spread of disease but I’m afraid I won’t be releasing it to the general public because our generations before didn’t have it, bad luck”.

red9 if they’re truly tracking the iPad then simple, I shall be switching it off for the 24h period preceding the first day of a block of work.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 11:41
  #5578 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 564
I get the general feeling that people who have a better understanding of JSS are quite satisfied with their rosters whereas those who made fundamental mistakes in their bidding technique are very unhappy. However, this does not translate into JSS is great. The only time we will know how good or bad the system is for the junior guys, is when everyone is bidding with a full understanding of the system. At the moment junior pilots have picked up trips which senior pilots thought they were bidding for, and many junior pilots have been able to almost build their own rosters. I guarantee things will not remain this way. When Carmen first arrived at Gatwick, I was very junior yet I was always incredibly happy with my roster. Eventually everyone learns how to use the system.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 12:39
  #5579 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 515
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post


Ah yes the I suffered it so you must argument. If the human race had that attitude we’d have never progressed beyond the dark ages. Alexander Fleming’s history could be very different, “well guys I’ve discovered this fantastic medicine that protects against the spread of disease but I’m afraid I won’t be releasing it to the general public because our generations before didn’t have it, bad luck”.

red9 if they’re truly tracking the iPad then simple, I shall be switching it off for the 24h period preceding the first day of a block of work.
That is an utterly ridiculous argument. Stop trying so hard to be negative and making excuses for it. The sense of entitlement really does baffle me with some of our youth/junior guys coming through. I did 5 years at the bottom on blind lines before recruitment started again and I gained some seniority to be able to bid, I couldn’t have been happier when there was movement. Some new starters are in tears over having to do 3 months at the bottom and are complaining they’re not moving quick enough.

Leave aviation. Or go back to the airline you came from at least.
OBK! is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 12:46
  #5580 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 515
Originally Posted by red9 View Post
Panel3:

I have nearly seven years in and remain at 80% MSL........
Are you sure? My friend has been in almost exactly (slightly less) than 7 years and is 65% on the MSL.

Edited for quotations

Last edited by OBK!; 13th Dec 2018 at 13:03.
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