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2R2W,
Sniping/negativity was not my intension at all. As I said a couple of days ago I'm a glass half full type of guy.
I tried to give some reassurance that as courses have only been arranged for Feb and March, more DEPs may get offered places as further courses are arranged throughout the year.
But, as someone who joined in 2012 and had some friends directed to the 320 from the 767 which caused 1 of them to leave BA, I think it is worth knowing all the possibilities/risks. The positives of BA difinitely out-weigh the negatives for me, but its pointless to stick your head in the sand and not make people aware of the possible yet improbable downsides.
Once again congrats to the new joiners, I'm sure you'll have a great time.
Sniping/negativity was not my intension at all. As I said a couple of days ago I'm a glass half full type of guy.
I tried to give some reassurance that as courses have only been arranged for Feb and March, more DEPs may get offered places as further courses are arranged throughout the year.
But, as someone who joined in 2012 and had some friends directed to the 320 from the 767 which caused 1 of them to leave BA, I think it is worth knowing all the possibilities/risks. The positives of BA difinitely out-weigh the negatives for me, but its pointless to stick your head in the sand and not make people aware of the possible yet improbable downsides.
Once again congrats to the new joiners, I'm sure you'll have a great time.
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As the 747 is due to retire in 2022
http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zht...-presentations
Whoever you fly for, it's your attitude to the job and what you make of it. On reflection, I wished I'd stayed with a previous, but it was the right decision at that time - bit like women
Last edited by blimey; 10th Dec 2017 at 16:44. Reason: Added source for 2024.
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I've been swimming for close on 19 months and a silent but keen observer of this thread. I'm desperate for info but I guess due to the heavy workload the answers are not very forthcoming. Looking forward to the web chat that has been mentioned in the last email but not sure what that will achieve. The problem is that my life and big decisions have been pretty much on hold for a year and a half and it is very frustrating to keep guessing.
BA would be a massive step up from where I am now, so an excellent career move which i am looking forward to, however, I've effectively postponed buying a house and turned down a fleet transfer (which comes with an improved roster (and a bond)) due to not knowing if and when the call will arrive.
The fear of drowning is real. having said that the previous 6 or so posts have been encouraging and a breath of fresh air from the high level of negativity I've come to expect on this thread! So cheers guys.
BA would be a massive step up from where I am now, so an excellent career move which i am looking forward to, however, I've effectively postponed buying a house and turned down a fleet transfer (which comes with an improved roster (and a bond)) due to not knowing if and when the call will arrive.
The fear of drowning is real. having said that the previous 6 or so posts have been encouraging and a breath of fresh air from the high level of negativity I've come to expect on this thread! So cheers guys.
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2R2W,
Sniping/negativity was not my intension at all. As I said a couple of days ago I'm a glass half full type of guy.
I tried to give some reassurance that as courses have only been arranged for Feb and March, more DEPs may get offered places as further courses are arranged throughout the year.
But, as someone who joined in 2012 and had some friends directed to the 320 from the 767 which caused 1 of them to leave BA, I think it is worth knowing all the possibilities/risks. The positives of BA difinitely out-weigh the negatives for me, but its pointless to stick your head in the sand and not make people aware of the possible yet improbable downsides.
Once again congrats to the new joiners, I'm sure you'll have a great time.
Sniping/negativity was not my intension at all. As I said a couple of days ago I'm a glass half full type of guy.
I tried to give some reassurance that as courses have only been arranged for Feb and March, more DEPs may get offered places as further courses are arranged throughout the year.
But, as someone who joined in 2012 and had some friends directed to the 320 from the 767 which caused 1 of them to leave BA, I think it is worth knowing all the possibilities/risks. The positives of BA difinitely out-weigh the negatives for me, but its pointless to stick your head in the sand and not make people aware of the possible yet improbable downsides.
Once again congrats to the new joiners, I'm sure you'll have a great time.
My point was simply that some of the comments above are hardly welcoming to the new joiners. I’m delighted for them having been kept waiting for what most of us would agree is a totally unacceptable amount of time given the time, effort and money candidates Are generally required to dedicate to the process.
Let’s hope 2018 brings some more good news to those still swimming and congrats once again to those with offers.
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2R2W,
If you don’t personally know any BA pilots to get questions answered, reading threads like this is part of ones due diligence. Unless issues are raised by others an applicant might not know that something was even a problem. A Rumsfeldian unknown unknown.
While the MSL is king in BA, a decision to join and on what terms is a very personal thing depending on your time in life. The decision of a single, twenty something to join will be very different to a married with kids, forty year old who has a short-haul command with a LoCo or is ex-military. The latter probably has low expectations of a long-haul command but is maybe moving for a long-haul FO lifestyle. They may have made a different choice had they known there was a risk of being forced onto short-haul.
Regards
If you don’t personally know any BA pilots to get questions answered, reading threads like this is part of ones due diligence. Unless issues are raised by others an applicant might not know that something was even a problem. A Rumsfeldian unknown unknown.
While the MSL is king in BA, a decision to join and on what terms is a very personal thing depending on your time in life. The decision of a single, twenty something to join will be very different to a married with kids, forty year old who has a short-haul command with a LoCo or is ex-military. The latter probably has low expectations of a long-haul command but is maybe moving for a long-haul FO lifestyle. They may have made a different choice had they known there was a risk of being forced onto short-haul.
Regards
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Binsleepen
Whilst I agree with what you say to a degree I am ex military and ex loco captain.
I drowned in the pool in 2012 and when successful in 2014 I thought long and hard about the longhaul/shorthaul conundrum but after talking to my many ex colleagues about the MSL I decided to take the shorthaul offer, a move I have never regretted despite being nearly 50.
I have just broken 50% on the airbus seniority list and am moving rapidly forward, when I compare my roster to those who joined on the jumbo on the same day, I hate to say it but mine are better.... more time at home and more days off, this is purely due to the fact that I am getting one of my top 5 triplines every month and as a commuter that is invaluable. Who knows what JSS will bring but I am seriously considering not bidding for longhaul until there are more junior pilots below me.
The question is then, is senior shorthaul (let’s say 45%) giving a better lifestyle than junior longhaul (90%)???? Remember those joining now on the jumbo will be the most junior pilots on that fleet until it retires - that said if offered take it, enjoy it and welcome to the company.
Whilst I agree with what you say to a degree I am ex military and ex loco captain.
I drowned in the pool in 2012 and when successful in 2014 I thought long and hard about the longhaul/shorthaul conundrum but after talking to my many ex colleagues about the MSL I decided to take the shorthaul offer, a move I have never regretted despite being nearly 50.
I have just broken 50% on the airbus seniority list and am moving rapidly forward, when I compare my roster to those who joined on the jumbo on the same day, I hate to say it but mine are better.... more time at home and more days off, this is purely due to the fact that I am getting one of my top 5 triplines every month and as a commuter that is invaluable. Who knows what JSS will bring but I am seriously considering not bidding for longhaul until there are more junior pilots below me.
The question is then, is senior shorthaul (let’s say 45%) giving a better lifestyle than junior longhaul (90%)???? Remember those joining now on the jumbo will be the most junior pilots on that fleet until it retires - that said if offered take it, enjoy it and welcome to the company.
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I think people who joined the 320 before 2016 have enjoyed unprecedented movement up the seniority list, it has not always been that way and wont be guarantied to be that way in the future. I joined about 16 months ago, started at 95% and that’s where I have stayed not moved one place. 2017 might see some movement but not huge. My point is even on the 320 don’t expect rapid progress through the seniority system, so prepare for many years of weekend work and multiple reserves per year (4 in my case).
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Fair enough Enzo,
The good news is those on the 320 will move up the seniority list, those on the longhaul fleets won’t (or certainly not to the same extent) things get better faster shorthaul than longhaul. I estimate that with 90 FOs moving on from the 320 at LHR we should move up about 20%
The good news is those on the 320 will move up the seniority list, those on the longhaul fleets won’t (or certainly not to the same extent) things get better faster shorthaul than longhaul. I estimate that with 90 FOs moving on from the 320 at LHR we should move up about 20%
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I think talk of trip lines and rosters as they are now is all well and good but the reality is most joining will only ever see JSS. What do we know about JSS? It would be reasonable to conclude that senior pilots may be able to write their own roster but I hear differing views on that. Junior guys are going to get the crap that is not wanted. Today that’s called a blind line and has some perks but under JSS it will be a zero satisfaction roster which is then optimised so that you work the same cap as the guy who cherry picked the good stuff. I have friends in RYR and EZY who I have not been able to recommend BA too. Just be aware of what BA is that is all
I think talk of trip lines and rosters as they are now is all well and good but the reality is most joining will only ever see JSS. What do we know about JSS? It would be reasonable to conclude that senior pilots may be able to write their own roster but I hear differing views on that....
Those of us in house and not part of the development team have only just seen the first of the JSS instructional videos BA/BALPA are putting out in reality at this stage know scooby do about how rosters will look like with JSS, how preferencing will really be handled, how skewed or not seniority will make the rosters..as bex says some think the top few percent will be writing their own rosters, others think the preferencing levers will stop that happening and everybody will at least one “good” trip..........
Last edited by wiggy; 11th Dec 2017 at 15:01.
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I joined British Airways 18 years ago. If I had my time over again, would I have made the same choices? Lately, it pains me to say, I am not convinced I would...
My simple advice to anyone wondering whether to join BA - if there is any doubt, there is no doubt - do not join. One thing I can guarantee you; the company is worse than you think it is. That does not mean it is not better than your current company, and the right choice for some, but you need to be totally convinced it is better. Otherwise, my prediction is you will regret your decision. This might sound negative, but in my opinion, it is the brutal truth. BA is nothing like the company it was even five years ago, never mind twenty.
My simple advice to anyone wondering whether to join BA - if there is any doubt, there is no doubt - do not join. One thing I can guarantee you; the company is worse than you think it is. That does not mean it is not better than your current company, and the right choice for some, but you need to be totally convinced it is better. Otherwise, my prediction is you will regret your decision. This might sound negative, but in my opinion, it is the brutal truth. BA is nothing like the company it was even five years ago, never mind twenty.
I joined British Airways 18 years ago. If I had my time over again, would I have made the same choices? Lately, it pains me to say, I am not convinced I would...
I joined twenty years ago, aged 42, from a UK charter background with 9 years in command on 737s. Took a huge pay cut and lost two stripes but spent 14 happy years on the 747, then 5 years LHS Airbus and now 18 months LHS 787.
My experience (and maybe yours?) will be difficult for joiners to relate to as the entire demographic and career path has changed. All I can say is I have no regrets and it was the right choice for me but I fully understand why it might not be for others.
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Remember those joining now on the jumbo will be the most junior pilots on that fleet until it retires
With all the NAPS P2s about to bid for every available command, (including SH!) in order to protect their pensions. I don’t imagine there’ll be any shortage of churn.
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I'd like to add another more positive reflection to counter the more negative posts pprune tends to attract.
I joined BA 4 years ago. At the time I too wrestled with the prospect of giving up well paid command opportunities at a LoCo to make the move. All I can say is that I am so glad I did.
Everyone has their own needs and wishes, but for me the greatest pleasure has been to explore the world, taking in the sights and culture, having free time for myself, enjoying the food and the occasional party with colleagues. It is a huge privilege that so few people in the world are able to experience. All that alongside a roster bidding and swapping system that allows me to make the most of my family and social life at home.
In short, I am grateful that I can enjoy my life, doing the things that I want to do, rather than continuining with a LoCo job that I personally found repetitive and unsatisfying.
Again, this is just my personal preference. I realise some people are more than happy at a LoCo, and I'm pleased for them. I just wanted to add another perspective. In the end, I find it hard to believe that the lifestyle I describe above was not part of the attraction to the profession for most pilots. If we wanted to be at home every night, then flying was not the obvious choice.
Good luck to everyone who makes the move.
I joined BA 4 years ago. At the time I too wrestled with the prospect of giving up well paid command opportunities at a LoCo to make the move. All I can say is that I am so glad I did.
Everyone has their own needs and wishes, but for me the greatest pleasure has been to explore the world, taking in the sights and culture, having free time for myself, enjoying the food and the occasional party with colleagues. It is a huge privilege that so few people in the world are able to experience. All that alongside a roster bidding and swapping system that allows me to make the most of my family and social life at home.
In short, I am grateful that I can enjoy my life, doing the things that I want to do, rather than continuining with a LoCo job that I personally found repetitive and unsatisfying.
Again, this is just my personal preference. I realise some people are more than happy at a LoCo, and I'm pleased for them. I just wanted to add another perspective. In the end, I find it hard to believe that the lifestyle I describe above was not part of the attraction to the profession for most pilots. If we wanted to be at home every night, then flying was not the obvious choice.
Good luck to everyone who makes the move.
Interesting post EllanVannin.
Your reasons for joining are why everyone in the pool applied, especially as I imagine the majority of us applied via the Longhaul DEP application. However, while the LoCo job can be repetitive, I wonder what you'll think in another 20 years with you still living out of a suitcase and spending 50% of your life in the same hotels away from family. Every job gets repetitive eventually. Being mid 30's with children, I find being home every night with my young family far more satisfying than exploring the world without them, and I wasn't in this situation when I jumped into the pool.
You describe the life of a single mid 20 year old though. Of course anyone early to mid 20's who isn't a Captain at a LoCo should jump at the chance to join BA, that is a step up. Unfortunately not everyone is in that situation. Additionally, giving up the 'prospect' of a command doesn't mean anything. You weren't use to the 30-40% additional salary you'd have been paid, or the deduction in household income those of us that are Captains already would have to absorb. Finally, you presumed you'd have passed
Your reasons for joining are why everyone in the pool applied, especially as I imagine the majority of us applied via the Longhaul DEP application. However, while the LoCo job can be repetitive, I wonder what you'll think in another 20 years with you still living out of a suitcase and spending 50% of your life in the same hotels away from family. Every job gets repetitive eventually. Being mid 30's with children, I find being home every night with my young family far more satisfying than exploring the world without them, and I wasn't in this situation when I jumped into the pool.
You describe the life of a single mid 20 year old though. Of course anyone early to mid 20's who isn't a Captain at a LoCo should jump at the chance to join BA, that is a step up. Unfortunately not everyone is in that situation. Additionally, giving up the 'prospect' of a command doesn't mean anything. You weren't use to the 30-40% additional salary you'd have been paid, or the deduction in household income those of us that are Captains already would have to absorb. Finally, you presumed you'd have passed
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Indeed, it is horses for courses.
With regards to BA, I don't reject your claims entirely, but I want to clarify a few things -
1. 50% of time away from home is quite some way from the truth (even for super junior pilots), unless you want to be away that much.
2. There are hundreds of destinations on the BA network, so it's unlikely you'll get bored of the same hotels. Besides, if you are making the most of exploring the world you are hardly staying in the hotel anyway. Getting bored of a city takes some time indeed, let alone hundreds of cities. There are many more than one lifetime's worth of things to enjoy on the network.
3. I would argue that Point 2 above, alongside the fact we can keep our career professionally interesting by changing fleets every 5 years, means that a career at BA is much less likely to become repetitive than at a LoCo.
4. Like you, I am mid thirties with kids. Personally, spending some time away from home enjoying my career, as well as working less hard than in my previous LoCo life, allows me to really enjoy my time with my family as I am healthier and in a better frame of mind. It's personal, but many BA colleagues I talk to share the same point of view.
5. Whilst I wasn't a captain, I still had to absorb a 40% pay cut when I left my LoCo job. So I was in the same boat. It's a tough call, but it's only money. You can't take it with you. I've lost track of the amount of times I've been on a trip thinking that money can't buy the "free" experiences on offer down route.
It's far from perfect, but I love it.
Each to their own, as they say.
With regards to BA, I don't reject your claims entirely, but I want to clarify a few things -
1. 50% of time away from home is quite some way from the truth (even for super junior pilots), unless you want to be away that much.
2. There are hundreds of destinations on the BA network, so it's unlikely you'll get bored of the same hotels. Besides, if you are making the most of exploring the world you are hardly staying in the hotel anyway. Getting bored of a city takes some time indeed, let alone hundreds of cities. There are many more than one lifetime's worth of things to enjoy on the network.
3. I would argue that Point 2 above, alongside the fact we can keep our career professionally interesting by changing fleets every 5 years, means that a career at BA is much less likely to become repetitive than at a LoCo.
4. Like you, I am mid thirties with kids. Personally, spending some time away from home enjoying my career, as well as working less hard than in my previous LoCo life, allows me to really enjoy my time with my family as I am healthier and in a better frame of mind. It's personal, but many BA colleagues I talk to share the same point of view.
5. Whilst I wasn't a captain, I still had to absorb a 40% pay cut when I left my LoCo job. So I was in the same boat. It's a tough call, but it's only money. You can't take it with you. I've lost track of the amount of times I've been on a trip thinking that money can't buy the "free" experiences on offer down route.
It's far from perfect, but I love it.
Each to their own, as they say.
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There will never be a consensus on this because everyone has their own personal lifestyle preferences and ambitions.
I left easyjet 7 years ago and am now mid 30’s, long haul BA, with a young family at home. Personally I cannot think of anything more fatiguing than flying short haul day trips, especially multiple earlies, and then going home to young children every single day. That has got to be seriously hard work. I go down route and get a couple of good nights kip, see and do things I’d never otherwise get a chance to and when I get home, generally I have a good stretch of time off which is 100% focused on family stuff. If one day my priorities change when the kids are older, I’ll bid back to short haul. That variety and flexibility is one of the biggest advantages of working for BA in my opinion. Whatever fleet you join on, you are not committing yourself to one particular lifestyle forever. And this is where people frequently get obsessed with the wrong thing. A 5 year initial freeze shouldn’t put people off considering the next, in some cases, 30-35 years of their career.
Ultimately though how can anyone say with any confidence that they are happier or less happy than they would have been had they taken a different decision. I haven’t worked as a part time easyjet captain, or in the charter world, or on private jets so I can’t know for sure I wouldn’t be happier doing that. You just make the best call you can at the time based on the most information you can get your hands on. Second guessing it down the line isn’t likely to bring you much happiness.
The fact remains not many people ever leave BA whereas the queue to join is usually around the block. You can’t escape the conclusion that there must be something in that.
EDIT: crossed with the post above which covers some of the same points.
I left easyjet 7 years ago and am now mid 30’s, long haul BA, with a young family at home. Personally I cannot think of anything more fatiguing than flying short haul day trips, especially multiple earlies, and then going home to young children every single day. That has got to be seriously hard work. I go down route and get a couple of good nights kip, see and do things I’d never otherwise get a chance to and when I get home, generally I have a good stretch of time off which is 100% focused on family stuff. If one day my priorities change when the kids are older, I’ll bid back to short haul. That variety and flexibility is one of the biggest advantages of working for BA in my opinion. Whatever fleet you join on, you are not committing yourself to one particular lifestyle forever. And this is where people frequently get obsessed with the wrong thing. A 5 year initial freeze shouldn’t put people off considering the next, in some cases, 30-35 years of their career.
Ultimately though how can anyone say with any confidence that they are happier or less happy than they would have been had they taken a different decision. I haven’t worked as a part time easyjet captain, or in the charter world, or on private jets so I can’t know for sure I wouldn’t be happier doing that. You just make the best call you can at the time based on the most information you can get your hands on. Second guessing it down the line isn’t likely to bring you much happiness.
The fact remains not many people ever leave BA whereas the queue to join is usually around the block. You can’t escape the conclusion that there must be something in that.
EDIT: crossed with the post above which covers some of the same points.
