BA Direct Entry Pilot.
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 75
Likes: 3
From: Room 506
If you want to make BA your career the only smart move is taking the earliest start date on whatever fleet you are offered. I was only offered long haul as at the time they didn’t have enough internal bidders who met the hour and insurance requirements.
Don’t join BA if your sole reason is expecting a very early command would be my view as you are likely to be disappointed, if only because those who are now getting very junior commands will be in those seats for a long time with very little movement. The only reason Gatwick particularly is going so junior is the need to man up and fly the slots acquired from Monafch internally.
Don’t join BA if your sole reason is expecting a very early command would be my view as you are likely to be disappointed, if only because those who are now getting very junior commands will be in those seats for a long time with very little movement. The only reason Gatwick particularly is going so junior is the need to man up and fly the slots acquired from Monafch internally.
Roll on 4 years, and with a seniority number hovering around 3500, there are people getting LGW cmds at 3900. This I have a problem with. Anyone senior to me, fair enough, thats the company that I joined. At no time was I told seniority rules, apart from when it doesn't.
I suppose that I shouldn't be surprised. I was also told that reserve was allocated on a fair points system, apart from senior guys get 3 times the number of points per RSV period. And it takes 4 years to get enough leave points to get anything close to a school holiday, on another system that was sold as being fair. Oh well, apparently I should be lucky to be in.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 103
From: Botswana
Fully sympathise Tricia however when you joined it was very likely there were bidders senior to you who were denied their move to Long Haul because it was cheaper to employ Direct Entry Pilots and only pay for one course, rather than two. To the vast majority of Short Haul Pilots in the RHS, Long Haul is seen as the golden ticket, granted it wasn’t in your circumstances but I would suggest that’s fairly rare.
Given that this has been happening for the last few years (and has happened in British Airways for a long time now) it should be of no surprise to you that BA are now using the same rule set to give junior commands to those who are rated to reduce their training costs. I post this point of view as someone who wanted long haul but didn’t get it, why should people like me not now benefit from being rated on type - BA have clearly shown precedent - if they want to gain their command? (I don’t BTW)
Given that this has been happening for the last few years (and has happened in British Airways for a long time now) it should be of no surprise to you that BA are now using the same rule set to give junior commands to those who are rated to reduce their training costs. I post this point of view as someone who wanted long haul but didn’t get it, why should people like me not now benefit from being rated on type - BA have clearly shown precedent - if they want to gain their command? (I don’t BTW)
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: FL370
Tricia, LC and the rest of the PnP team have previously said that some type freezes will be waived this year for those with a valid C32X bid. If you’ve put in for a Gatwick command, there’s a very good chance you’ll get it.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
Of all the multitude of rules within BA, I have always presumed that the one rule known to all new joiners (be they DEPs, TEPs, CEPs), was that you go wherever the company sends you within your first 5 years period. Then once you are in, you learn “bid only for what you want”, but you won’t get it unless BA choose to unfreeze you. BA are hardly going to choose to unfreeze people where it would cost them money to do so. They do it when it suits them, and that is all. Some people have been known to do 3 courses within their first 5 years because they’ve been in the right (or wrong) place at the right (wrong) time. The great thing is, when you are eventually unfrozen, you’ll have lots of people stopping you from being bottom of the list.
There has been a little bit of talk about DECs, and bids like yours are precisely the reason why that will not be happening any time soon. All the while there are internal pilots wanting short haul commands, BALPA will insist they are unfrozen first, and I am sure there are plenty of frozen bidders available.
There has been a little bit of talk about DECs, and bids like yours are precisely the reason why that will not be happening any time soon. All the while there are internal pilots wanting short haul commands, BALPA will insist they are unfrozen first, and I am sure there are plenty of frozen bidders available.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 103
From: Botswana
There has been a little bit of talk about DECs, and bids like yours are precisely the reason why that will not be happening any time soon. All the while there are internal pilots wanting short haul commands, BALPA will insist they are unfrozen first, and I am sure there are plenty of frozen bidders available.
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 54
Likes: 1
From: UK
Would anyone be able to share any insight into what things are like from LGW, regarding days off per month, length of days, how many sectors, layovers etc.
Currently in the hold pool, Boeing rated but was thinking about mentioning a preference for SH at LGW if possible. I’m aware the offer will be for wherever they need, but as this seems like a less popular choice I was hoping I may have a chance with it.
Would appreciate any info, thanks!
Currently in the hold pool, Boeing rated but was thinking about mentioning a preference for SH at LGW if possible. I’m aware the offer will be for wherever they need, but as this seems like a less popular choice I was hoping I may have a chance with it.
Would appreciate any info, thanks!
Generally 2 sector day trips. Some tours but not that many, mostly 2 day 6 sector stuff but some longer and better layovers available. Typically in the summer expect 10-14 days off per month with the winter more like 14-18. It’s noticeably seasonal, summers a full on, winters aren’t. At the bottom of the list you can expect mostly weekend work. If that isn’t a problem you can get fairly good rosters.
Expect to move pretty quickly up that list, assuming recruitment continues at the forecast rate.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
From: somewhere between Miami and Havana
I don't have a problem with DEC's, as long as every BA pilot has had the opportunity to take that command. If there is an eligible, frozen pilot who wants a command and BA hire a DEC, then I got a problem.
I hope that I have c 4,300 pilots who feel the same.
Buter
I hope that I have c 4,300 pilots who feel the same.
Buter
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
From: London
Absolutely Buter!
As hinted at before, getting a direct entry LH offer might sound like winning the lottery. However it does come with a health warning.
Having just joined the company your seniority number is at the bottom of the group, since every year there is a lot of movement from people who are unfrozen you will generally stay for at least 5 years at pretty much the bottom of the seniority list of that specific fleet before slowly starting to move up. This is because the people who move onto your fleet from other fleets in BA will have a higher seniority number. For SH since the biggest source for new pilots is external recruitment you will generally start moving up the fleet from the day you join.
Reserve points, as a new joiner you start with the lowest amount of reserve points on the fleet (people moving fleet within BA get the average amount of reserve points). On SH this spread isn't generally that large but on LH it can be. Therefor it will take longer to get a reasonable amount of reserve points. Also we have a banding system were if you have been in the company for a while you will get more points for doing a reserve period. On SH pretty much everybody is in the same (lowest) band and therefor everybody does about the same amount of reserve periods a year (after you have managed to get your points to the average after joining).
Xmas and holiday points. Once again joining LH you will find a lot of pilots during their time in the company have build up a fair amount of Xmas and holiday points. As a new joiner you start with 0 points so it will take a few years to get your points up and be able to get the holiday you want or Xmas off. On SH most are less then 5 years in the company and have relatively few Xmas and holiday points. Also on SH there are relatively few Xmas trips.
Commands / Engagement freeze. In the first 5 years of your BA career BA can do and post you where ever they like. If you are desperate for the 4 stripes all junior commands are on the Airbus 320 fleet. BA not being a charity organisation or a state airline they luckily try to control costs. Therefor they are more likely to release somebody from his/her engagement freeze for a command on type then releasing somebody from another fleet for which the course takes much longer and will include two typerating courses (the LH position needs to be backfilled). Also a warning for those who think about command early in their BA career. Your pay rise will be marginal. The reason; you are going to be the most junior skipper with very credit inefficient rosters. If you would have stayed as a FO your rosters would have been much more credit efficient which is reflected in the pay. Also as mentioned above about LH the same is true for an early command. You join a group with most in a higher band of reserve points, more holiday and xmas points. So please if you do go for that early command do so with your eyes wide open and don't start complaining once you have that command that your pay and lifestyle are bad. You bid for it, the perks didn't change and there is a reason the commands went and are going junior.
My experience in BA: My life is much more stable now than with any other airline I worked for before. Being able to bid for your roster (either JSS or Bidline) is a massive perk. However lifestyle took a hit last year being so short of pilots. Secondary terms and conditions incl Pension and LOL are better than what I had before. Most guys I fly with are very professional and for me more importantly practical. The cockpit gradient is almost flat, definitely flatter then other UK airlines I've flown for, if it is your sector you run the show. I also haven't flown with anybody who spends more then 10 minus briefing LHR (don't think I generally even get a brief longer that last longer then 5 minutes for a LHR dep/arr). Having said the exception being there are a few who are slightly harder work who did indeed mainly join as DEC a few years back, they are very friendly on a personal level but can be slightly more authoritative and like to dot the i's and cross the t's when on the flight deck.
BA might not be for everybody (I appreciate that some might rather work for Virgin and Easy, which by the sound of it are very good employers as well) but having joined BA as an experienced FO on SH a few years back I well and truly do enjoy it and wouldn't like to work for any other UK airline. For those in the selection process or thinking about applying. The selection process is hard work and can be a pain in the arse, however it is a very fair process (no age, gender, race, nationality, background discrimination what so ever as somebody hinted at before) and so worth the effort once you are allowed to go straight into Waterside (offices) instead of turning left (recruitment centre).
As hinted at before, getting a direct entry LH offer might sound like winning the lottery. However it does come with a health warning.
Having just joined the company your seniority number is at the bottom of the group, since every year there is a lot of movement from people who are unfrozen you will generally stay for at least 5 years at pretty much the bottom of the seniority list of that specific fleet before slowly starting to move up. This is because the people who move onto your fleet from other fleets in BA will have a higher seniority number. For SH since the biggest source for new pilots is external recruitment you will generally start moving up the fleet from the day you join.
Reserve points, as a new joiner you start with the lowest amount of reserve points on the fleet (people moving fleet within BA get the average amount of reserve points). On SH this spread isn't generally that large but on LH it can be. Therefor it will take longer to get a reasonable amount of reserve points. Also we have a banding system were if you have been in the company for a while you will get more points for doing a reserve period. On SH pretty much everybody is in the same (lowest) band and therefor everybody does about the same amount of reserve periods a year (after you have managed to get your points to the average after joining).
Xmas and holiday points. Once again joining LH you will find a lot of pilots during their time in the company have build up a fair amount of Xmas and holiday points. As a new joiner you start with 0 points so it will take a few years to get your points up and be able to get the holiday you want or Xmas off. On SH most are less then 5 years in the company and have relatively few Xmas and holiday points. Also on SH there are relatively few Xmas trips.
Commands / Engagement freeze. In the first 5 years of your BA career BA can do and post you where ever they like. If you are desperate for the 4 stripes all junior commands are on the Airbus 320 fleet. BA not being a charity organisation or a state airline they luckily try to control costs. Therefor they are more likely to release somebody from his/her engagement freeze for a command on type then releasing somebody from another fleet for which the course takes much longer and will include two typerating courses (the LH position needs to be backfilled). Also a warning for those who think about command early in their BA career. Your pay rise will be marginal. The reason; you are going to be the most junior skipper with very credit inefficient rosters. If you would have stayed as a FO your rosters would have been much more credit efficient which is reflected in the pay. Also as mentioned above about LH the same is true for an early command. You join a group with most in a higher band of reserve points, more holiday and xmas points. So please if you do go for that early command do so with your eyes wide open and don't start complaining once you have that command that your pay and lifestyle are bad. You bid for it, the perks didn't change and there is a reason the commands went and are going junior.
My experience in BA: My life is much more stable now than with any other airline I worked for before. Being able to bid for your roster (either JSS or Bidline) is a massive perk. However lifestyle took a hit last year being so short of pilots. Secondary terms and conditions incl Pension and LOL are better than what I had before. Most guys I fly with are very professional and for me more importantly practical. The cockpit gradient is almost flat, definitely flatter then other UK airlines I've flown for, if it is your sector you run the show. I also haven't flown with anybody who spends more then 10 minus briefing LHR (don't think I generally even get a brief longer that last longer then 5 minutes for a LHR dep/arr). Having said the exception being there are a few who are slightly harder work who did indeed mainly join as DEC a few years back, they are very friendly on a personal level but can be slightly more authoritative and like to dot the i's and cross the t's when on the flight deck.
BA might not be for everybody (I appreciate that some might rather work for Virgin and Easy, which by the sound of it are very good employers as well) but having joined BA as an experienced FO on SH a few years back I well and truly do enjoy it and wouldn't like to work for any other UK airline. For those in the selection process or thinking about applying. The selection process is hard work and can be a pain in the arse, however it is a very fair process (no age, gender, race, nationality, background discrimination what so ever as somebody hinted at before) and so worth the effort once you are allowed to go straight into Waterside (offices) instead of turning left (recruitment centre).
Last edited by Jumbo2; 21st November 2018 at 13:36.
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
From: England
Hi all,
Does anyone know if there's much change in lifestyle or lifestyle progression for someone that goes into DEP Shorthaul Yr1 at LHR vs. LGW - i.e Would it take longer to see an effective change over the years at LHR over Gatwick? I understand there are more tours at Heathrow, for example, but I'm thinking more in terms of days off per month or the time it will take to not have to work every weekend of the year etc.
I know of a friend that moved LGW -> LHR at around the Yr5 mark and has now gone back to Gatwick after not enjoying the Heathrow lifestyle in comparison. I guess for someone like me, you can't miss what you never had in the first place
Can anyone also help out with this concept of reserve - It's not something we do at my current employer. On a 28-day reserve block, do you have absolutely no idea what your days off will be/is it possible to plan any remote form of lifestyle in this time or do you just have to accept it and give yourself up to work for a month? How do people find it?
Thanks in advance!
Does anyone know if there's much change in lifestyle or lifestyle progression for someone that goes into DEP Shorthaul Yr1 at LHR vs. LGW - i.e Would it take longer to see an effective change over the years at LHR over Gatwick? I understand there are more tours at Heathrow, for example, but I'm thinking more in terms of days off per month or the time it will take to not have to work every weekend of the year etc.
I know of a friend that moved LGW -> LHR at around the Yr5 mark and has now gone back to Gatwick after not enjoying the Heathrow lifestyle in comparison. I guess for someone like me, you can't miss what you never had in the first place
Can anyone also help out with this concept of reserve - It's not something we do at my current employer. On a 28-day reserve block, do you have absolutely no idea what your days off will be/is it possible to plan any remote form of lifestyle in this time or do you just have to accept it and give yourself up to work for a month? How do people find it?
Thanks in advance!
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
From: London
Hi all,
Does anyone know if there's much change in lifestyle or lifestyle progression for someone that goes into DEP Shorthaul Yr1 at LHR vs. LGW - i.e Would it take longer to see an effective change over the years at LHR over Gatwick? I understand there are more tours at Heathrow, for example, but I'm thinking more in terms of days off per month or the time it will take to not have to work every weekend of the year etc.
I know of a friend that moved LGW -> LHR at around the Yr5 mark and has now gone back to Gatwick after not enjoying the Heathrow lifestyle in comparison. I guess for someone like me, you can't miss what you never had in the first place
Can anyone also help out with this concept of reserve - It's not something we do at my current employer. On a 28-day reserve block, do you have absolutely no idea what your days off will be/is it possible to plan any remote form of lifestyle in this time or do you just have to accept it and give yourself up to work for a month? How do people find it?
Thanks in advance!
Does anyone know if there's much change in lifestyle or lifestyle progression for someone that goes into DEP Shorthaul Yr1 at LHR vs. LGW - i.e Would it take longer to see an effective change over the years at LHR over Gatwick? I understand there are more tours at Heathrow, for example, but I'm thinking more in terms of days off per month or the time it will take to not have to work every weekend of the year etc.
I know of a friend that moved LGW -> LHR at around the Yr5 mark and has now gone back to Gatwick after not enjoying the Heathrow lifestyle in comparison. I guess for someone like me, you can't miss what you never had in the first place
Can anyone also help out with this concept of reserve - It's not something we do at my current employer. On a 28-day reserve block, do you have absolutely no idea what your days off will be/is it possible to plan any remote form of lifestyle in this time or do you just have to accept it and give yourself up to work for a month? How do people find it?
Thanks in advance!
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
From: Uk
As above but the norm now seems to be 6 on 1 off, 6 on 1 off 6 on. Some will be home standby, some will be airport standby and some will be flying. If it’s really busy you may fly all of it. Exhausting but sometimes just sometime it’s alright.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
From: London
Also you could wait until you are assigned one in the middle of the summer where you get a reserve period like bex88 describes. Or you do the smart thing, are proactive and get your reserve points up by doing a quieter reserve period in Winter which is the more civilised version with more stood down days.
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 75
Likes: 3
From: Room 506
Also you could wait until you are assigned one in the middle of the summer where you get a reserve period like bex88 describes. Or you do the smart thing, are proactive and get your reserve points up by doing a quieter reserve period in Winter which is the more civilised version with more stood down days.
Last edited by Tricia Takanawa; 22nd November 2018 at 10:05. Reason: For clarity. Thanks wiggy
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
For info Reserve in December is handled under a different rule set than that used during the rest of the year - your vulnerability to Christmas reserve is based on how many Christmases you’ve been “out” in previous years......(your ‘C’ number)
14.3.6.5 if you are really interested....
14.3.6.5 if you are really interested....
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 103
From: Botswana
Reserve isn’t an exact science and can be completely baffling as to the workload versus what’s expected for the time of year. I had reserve in June during the World Cup, England going great guns in the tournament, fantastic weather, critically undercrewed in the RHS, all pointing to a nightmare reserve period. In actuality it turned out to be the quietest reserve period I’ve done in my time at BA, putting my feet up in front of the Telly and the football with only four trips in the entire three weeks, the last one of which I actually phoned current ops to request as it cleared Heathrow at 07:50 on the final day of the reserve block. Go figure.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,226
Likes: 114
From: UK