Forced unpaid leave at ryanair

[captplaystation]

Stop calling me Shirley. . . . . "moral stance"/ " Ryanair" shum mishtake shurely ( sorry I called you Shirley too)

[Ryanairpilot]

stansdead

I have not a clue what you are on about. If ryanair fails then we are all out of a job whether we have had a week of unpaid leave or not. (BTW banks always look as if they have strong balance sheets - its the stuff that's 'off balance sheet' that brings em down)

poose

My leadership/management/command training... call it whatever you like, stems from time served at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and commissioned service

oh dear....don't tell me... you were just pipped at the post for the sword too.

a bit more than a two week MCC..

For you it sounds as if the MCC would have been the better choice

I currently cannot afford anywhere because all of my cash is tied up in my training for a profession which may be changing for the worst, because naive newbies and ignoramuses are signing away their rights with abhorrent terms and conditions.

Aaah..now we're getting to the nub of the matter.....but wait a minute..

All of the doommongers and companymen derided me as a troublemaker

Could there possibly be a link here?

Some friendly advice - if you are looking to join an industry that has the same pampered life of the mess and all the allowances and benefits you could ever dream of you will be bitterly disappointed. If you are willing to roll with the punches in a wildly cyclical fickle industry then keep going. It is a decent crust but always have an escape plan. If you are getting this stressed at the initial training stage then I would seriously consider something else. I have been working for over 30 years now. In that time I have worked for quite a few companies, mostly airlines but some not and that includes auntie betty, and trust me there is no utopia. Look after yourself and keep your loved ones safe - anything else is a bonus.

[Tooloose]

Ryanairpilot,
You suggest that the alternative to compulsory unpaid leave is that Ryanair will fail (your word) and all will lose their jobs. If that really were the case then a week of unpaid leave for all would indeed be a wise choice. However, nothing could be further from the truth. MOL and his acolytes miss no opportunity to tell anyone who will listen how much free cash it has in the bank (over £2 billion), that there is no possibility that it will fail, that people should not book with other airlines which might fail and that Ryanair will still be there when all other airlines have failed. No, the purpose of this cheap trick is not to protect your job but to soften you up to accept winter layoff as the norm in future years and eventually " sorry, no work for you today, come back tomorrow we might have some for you then". Make no mistake about it this was the way business was done in many industries before the advent of unions and is the standard to which the likes of MOL would like to return. It is a pity to see such naiveity in one so experienced as your good self. Don't believe everything they tell you and don't accept everything they do to you as your due. This industry was not always as harsh as you say. It got like this due to the attitude of certain employers aided by the docility of some of their employees. It doesn't have to keep getting worse but it will if the prevalent attitude of grateful acceptance of mistreatment continues to prevail.

[Ryanairpilot]

Tooloose (et al)

You suggest that the alternative to compulsory unpaid leave is that Ryanair will fail (your word)

RTFP I was responding to stansdead's implication that ryanair would fail.


Since you all seem to blame ryanair pilots for your and others current terms and conditions why dont you join ryanair and continue your principled crusade from within? Nah, thought not. (cue multiple posts "I'd never work for them..."). Quite happy to hurl insults from the safety of anonymity.

No, the purpose of this cheap trick is not to protect your job but to soften you up to accept winter layoff as the norm in future years

There you go - if you worked for ryanair you would know that everybody knows how he works. Believe me I'm no fan of oleary's methods but he has created such a disparate workforce that united action is nigh on impossible.

Make no mistake about it this was the way business was done in many industries before the advent of unions

Again if you worked for ryanair you would know that there is a significant feeling of being led up the garden path by the unions about a year ago. I'm afraid they share 50% of the blame for the current malaise.

Everybody should go and read all the posts by Rubik101 (who I do not know) and captplaystation (who I do know and is a very experienced and respected pilot) and accept those as a general indication of the attitude of the main pilot body in ryanair. If you cannot accept that then this message board is not the place for you.

Please do not respond with "My mate says that......".

If you do not know first hand, then you do not know.

[stansdead]

Ryanairpilot,

I never said would fail.... more like could fail. Just like anyone else.

However, you are one misguided, angry, foolish .

Enjoy your week off.

[jupilair]

Hey Poose,

I hope for you the best and I hope that straight after your training you will get your dream job, but I am afraid that nowadays, you will have to join the queue and most probably before joining FR or others well known companies you will have to take already some weeks or perhaps months of unpaid leave.
I don't wish you this way but it's the way of 90% of ab initio's.
You begin full of hope sending cv everywhere, sure that within a week you will receive a positive answer...weeks pass...before you received your first negative answer, after some more weeks and negative answers you begin to think to do instruction flights, towing gliders flights.... but the problem is that even for those flights the queue is really long.
More time, less money, more time, less money, more time, less money... after the first year you begin to consider"Oh my god" to pay for a TR, you use the bottom of your pocket to pay it but even there you discover that the selection is not easy and willing to pay don't open directly all the doors.
Let's say after all, that you secure a TR and a contract with FR, most probably in debt, you will just want to fly the max hours to secure a good future for you...and your family( if you succeed to create one or even harder to kept the one you had before your training).
By then if you have the balls to stand-up, to open your mouth with the risk to loose everything, You will become, for sure, my hero...

Happy landing

[Diamond_Dog]

SPEECH! & alas well said!

[gatbusdriver]

It is very difficult to put myself in the position of a FR pilot. It is very easy to say how I would behave, what I would do, from the sidelines and with the comfort of working for a company that has union recognition. I certainly don't envy you guys (unless I become unemployed!).

I don't know the in's and out's of what has gone on before with Balpa and Ialpa. What I do know is that I have better T's and C's working for my lot because of our CC and membership (since 2001). We don't win all of our battles by any stretch of the imagination, but we do win some, and find a lot of middle ground on others, and of course lose the rest.

Maybe the opportunity for recognition for you guys is totally lost, as Ryanairpilot says I do not know first hand. But surely it is worth giving them another chance (even if they did drop you in it first time around), keeping the hope alive that there is a possibility of recognition.

[ballyboley]

Jupilair - Couldn't agree more.

On a different note, could any current FR pilots possibly give me the contacts of a good accountant/tax advisor. The one I have hasn't been working out. Ideally someone who's had experience of reclaiming the VAT on type rating etc. I'm on brookfield.
PM me if its easier.

Many thanks

[Ryanairpilot]

There stansdead, is that better, got that off your chest?

Easy isn't it this anonymity malarkey?

34 you say? Very mature.

[Tooloose]

It is being suggested that " the union" has in some way led Ryanair pilots up the garden path. I think it is worth giving the other side of the story and while I do not have full information a little background might be helpful. Over the past couple of years a number of successful court cases were brought by IALPA and its parent union IMPACT (yes, that joke has been made already, thank you) on behalf of individual Ryanair pilots. For the most part these achieved satisfactory results. The issue to which reference is being made in this thread seems to be the case which was brought under the Industrial Relations Act as amended in 2004. This new legislation allowed the Labour Court to make a ruling in disputes which arose in companies which refused to recognise unions and where the Court was satisfied on the basis of testimony and evidence provided by both sides that the company did not provide any real, as opposed to pretended, internal means of dispute resolution. Such a case was brought on behalf of a number of very courageous Ryanair pilots and the Labour Court found in their favour. The intent of the legislation was that such a finding would be legally enforceable. Ryanair appealed this finding to the High Court but the union won again. Ryanair then appealed the High Court finding to the Supreme Court and the result of that was that the Supreme Court found that the Legislation did not comply with the constitution in that in infringed the rights of employers. In oher words, Ryanair won. Costs were awarded against the union. The only option for further legal action was to start again at the beginning. The legal advice was that the result would be the same, that the union would be liable for costs again and, given that the first round cost the union a seven figure sum, that the best course of action would be to seek to have the legislation changed so that it would be more watertight. This is the new legislation to which reference has been made in another thread by CaptKremin. As has been mentioned by another poster, it is unrealistic to expect a union to win every battle. In this case, the union put in enormous efoort over several years and incurred enormous expence on behalf of Ryanair pilots. They won every round except, sadly, the last one. Many Ryanair pilots made enormous sacrifices during this action and their efforts were unsuccessful. However, even though that battle was lost, their are some who feel that this cause is still worth fighting for. I can understand how some of the posters here feel disappointed but it is grossly incorrect to suggest that the union somehow sought to let down the pilots in Ryanair. What is most disappointing is to see the enormous lengths some people are prepared to go to to persuade their colleagues that their position is hopelss and that any effort to organise and protect themselves is doomed. Whose agenda do you think they are working to?

[the grim repa]

i am one of many pilots who believe this cause is still worth fighting for and will do so until my dying breath.much great work has been done and gone unacknowledged,largely without support from the main pilot group in the past number of years by certain brave individuals and the unions up to and including worldwide pilot associations.because it is not readily apparent or shouted about by some egomaniac ceo,then people assume incorrectly that nothing has been done.the sad fact though is that until the pilot group is educated enough to see what is happening,then the struggle is difficult.the pilots are the fulcrum to topple the balance for change.when that happens?maybe a factor og how far they are pushed.i know for a fact that action by the pilots as a group would bring about change fairly swiftly.i keep working to and aiming for that day.it will come,when is the decision of the pilot group.

[UK Viking]

What happened to you guys ?

What is wrong with you guys, why are you so angry ? It seems you have done something stupid and got a kick in the ass but did'nt have the balls to stand it even though it might have been deserved !! Ryanair is a very strong business company, they provide good and safe positions if YOU follow their way of doing this business, I am Scandinavian, used to be working for a very well known and respected company there, found the future a little "dangerous" in that company (they just sacked 86 pilots !!)and decided to try Ryanair. I tell you, the way Ryanair is doing their best to save jobs is exact the way my former union in Scandinavia would have come to as a solution, sharing the unpaid leave between the whole base is absolutely the best way for everyone, and further more, how come i actually LIKE to work for Ryanair, roster is good, pay is good, pension is good etc. ? Don't tell me to dislike my company, I do like to work for Ryanair, they do tough business, but they survive the crises and I still got my GOOD paycheck every month, even without a union. I perfectly understand if you have trouble with Ryanair, they dont want you lazy union guys at all, you guys just think that you should be nursed through the life following rules that kills all airline business these days, just to make you big fat and happy, grow up and be realistic, with that attitude forget it and find another way of living.

Rgds UK Viking

[the grim repa]

very good,simplistic view uk viking - what about next year when you reach your 900 hours in 10 months and then you are put on 2 months unpaid leave.you must be a simpleton to think that is about saving jobs.i do not know what ryanair you work for but the one i work for took our pensions away in 2003.if we were lazy,the last thing we would be doing is trying to educate pilots as to the history of industrial relations and their impact on your future.especially for people who could not give a hoot about their fellow workers or in some cases themselves.keep your head in the sand and do a bit of research on your future during your week off WITHOUT pay.by the by,one does not have to dislike their company to try and make changes for their best interests.should we hand over the total running of our lives to the ceo.so good a job he does,not!

[zuz]

Uk Viking: I think you will find that the issue here is not that unpaid leave is being shared around both bases but the fact that permanent staff are getting the leave and contract staff are not!!!!

[qzsedrftg]

UK Viking, you've got some groing up to do mate, and fast! Smell the coffee, BA will also weather the crisis, so is Virgin and Lufthansa... good companies make profits most of the time and exceptionnaly lose money, generally stay on their feet. This is one of the deepest of crisis, we all agree, and every single company is in it. Ryanair's management should just take it on the chin and take the hit like men, there is no shame in those circumstances to not do so well, but it is a disgrace to jump on the occasion to screw us more. They DO NOT save money by forcing us on unpaid leave, this is a myth. The contractors will fly for us and they cost money as well. Just to point you the right direction, this is a paycut and nothing to do with saving jobs. btw, what's this business of us "getting what we deserve"?? Weirdo.

[UK Viking]

900 Hours ?

Grim, I don't know which Ryanair you work for ? Those days are gone, most pilots do just about a little more than 800 hours and since Ryanair introduced the 5/4 roster they also are making an effort to do an average to every month of the year, long time since I have heard of anyone being laid off for a month or two in the winter. If any Ryanair pilot should reach the 900 hours, the pay would still be the same, and you certainly need the months off anyway. Myself, I am doing at the most about 600 hours a year for the time being, that affects on the other hand my sector pay so no matter what situation you might be in, you can always find something that doesn't work exactly as you want it to. Nobody has been forced to join Ryanair, I choosed them because the majority if not all of my former colleges from Scandinavia who joined Ryanair in the last few years, was speaking very well for the company. The terms and condition you are expecting doesn't exist anymore, I even do believe you are to young to ever have experienced those glorious days of aviation ? Be a little more positive and the world would probably not be so mean to you.

Rgds UK Viking

[UK Viking]

Yes contractors don't get unpaid leave, they get less hours a month and it only takes a few less flying hours to make the same loss as one week of unpaid leave for the Ryanair pilots.

Rgds UK Vilking

[the grim repa]

all due respect cock,but you are living in cloud cuckoo land.i am amazed at your naivety.i can tell you now for a fact that the majority of the scandinavian pilots who joined ryanair have left the company and i can pm you their names,should you need education on that count also.the reason being in my experience that they were astute pilots and respectful people who shared a view of the common good.which makes your stance even more alien to how i know the majority of scandinavian pilots.

"those days are gone",maybe you can remind me of what actually took place in those days.i have been in ryanair over 12 years now and with all the positivity in the world old bean,i think you are in denial,just joined,just got command or are a bullshooter!

mathematics i learned at school tells me that if,you make x amount per hour for 900 hours sector pay,and work for 10 months salary you earn less than if you earn 900 hours sector pay and work for 12 months salary.but you may very well be a contractor and not give a hoot if permanent pilots are given unpaid leave to accomodate your continued self betterment.

the glorious days of aviation/those terms and conditions do not exist anymore,symptomatic of many working in ryanair is the phenomenon whereby the individuals self worth deteriorates and they even begin to believe that what management does and the way they are treated is normal.it is not,and in time you will well understand that.

i have no problem with positivity/live and let live.However i will not stand idly by and let my future/prospects/career be rode roughshod over by some mega millionaire egomaniac.but you know all this in the back of your mind and that is why you come on here with half arsed naive attempt to justify a management who has over 2 billion in the bank,who up until this year was making a half a billion after tax profit per year and look to be one of the only companies who will make any profit this year,whose ceo choose not to hedge fuel at 70 to 80 dollars per barrel,waited for oil to peak and then hedged at the mid 120 dollars per barrel and who is not hedged from december 31st this year.some would say you are very understanding,i would call it otherwise.

thanks for the regards though.i believe it is important to maintain our respect for each other despite fr managements best efforts to demean us.good luck to you and when the truth hits you,i hope you can roll with it.

[UK Viking]

qzsedrftg, what a temper, relax and please use a civilized language !! You surtanly have a problem, guys like you are not the types you want to handle any machines. Someone definitely have pissed on you. You mentioned all the companies in your favour, what about SAS, the former Scandinavian pride trying to survive by being sold to Lufthansa, already sacking pilots. I tell you, if you dont want the Ryanair job, leave it, you act as a "spoiled child", what did Ryanair do to you ? Or did they just not do it your way or your fathers ?

UK Viking