Forced unpaid leave at ryanair
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By using the lowest common denominator argument nobody could ever complain about their circumstances as long as there are rug weavers in india earning 1 dollar per day.
Flight crew have special circumstances both in training before they get a job and after when they work and should be paid accordingly, yet the trend is a downward slope.
Primarily as a group we get shafted by first timers who have some sort of "dream" to fly airplanes for a living and so will accept any BS to get the chance to do so. Then we have the spineless oldies who accept reductions because they can't be arsed to fight for their right for fear of getting fired and ending up commuting from the middle of nowhere. It's not as if there are jobs all over the place if you get laid off as a pilot, usually you can consider yourself lucky if you can stay in the same country.
But I think you illustrate effectively that the "man on the street" as it were will never have an understanding of flight crew circumstances and will forever consider us collectively to be overpaid primadonnas with 30 hr work weeks and porsches in their garages. Public support for pilot issues when it comes to terms and conditions will never exist, proven in part by the fact that nobody who travels these days seem to think that it should come with a price for the ticket.
Flight crew have special circumstances both in training before they get a job and after when they work and should be paid accordingly, yet the trend is a downward slope.
Primarily as a group we get shafted by first timers who have some sort of "dream" to fly airplanes for a living and so will accept any BS to get the chance to do so. Then we have the spineless oldies who accept reductions because they can't be arsed to fight for their right for fear of getting fired and ending up commuting from the middle of nowhere. It's not as if there are jobs all over the place if you get laid off as a pilot, usually you can consider yourself lucky if you can stay in the same country.
But I think you illustrate effectively that the "man on the street" as it were will never have an understanding of flight crew circumstances and will forever consider us collectively to be overpaid primadonnas with 30 hr work weeks and porsches in their garages. Public support for pilot issues when it comes to terms and conditions will never exist, proven in part by the fact that nobody who travels these days seem to think that it should come with a price for the ticket.
Stansdead what would be "acceptable" terms and conditions to you?
Lets try and be like CX shall we? Have you read the Fragrant Harbour Forum recently?
Violation of Conditions of Service, disregard for Seniority and thus bypass pay, issues with a Union that is virtually impotent, no real increase in wages for a long long time, ULR and reduction in crew numbers using of basings to lower T and C's of SO and Fo's based in HK. Something to aspire to is it?
Or BA, introduction of a low cost long haul subsidiary on dramatically lower t and c's than mainline, no integration of seniority numbers, no life style protection and all this under a company that is seen as the bastion of BALPA?
Or Virgin, who when they entered the Australian market under Virgin Blue significantly under cut the t and c's of the current 737 pilots and introduced pay for your type ratings to Australia. Then once again reduced terms when they set up Pac Blue to make them some of the worst paid 737 pilots in the world. All led or at least aided and abetted by Richard Branson. He also repeated this feat with Virgin America, whose terms are substantially below those of Southwest pilots.
Whilst I agree this whole charade on unpaid leave is abhorrent and sets a precedent for the future I ask you this. If RYR was to form a union under BALPA and the members balloted for a strike, would you be there in the times of need? Would you support your "comrades" financially? Would you refuse to crew a flight if it was sub leased to RYR? Would you be there to offer a job to those that lose it? Would you be on the picket line as well?
I seem to recall a famous strike in Australia in 1989 that had all people preaching unity unity unity for better t's and c's and when push came to shove it was every man for himself! We had airline pilots coming back into GA and taking jobs off guys who had done the hard yards. But remember they were doing this to protect our conditions. In the end those that could buggered off OS or went back to work!
I WAS a member of BALPA and went to all the meetings until some Fecking Idiot sent out the last letter protesting about unpaid leave. Why should I support a cause that will result in my job loss? Unfortunately in my eyes and many others BALPA are just as bad as RYR. They are dividing and conquering, but with a lot more hot air! Instead of trying to unite the group under one pilot body their response? We'll seek recognition for RYR employees first then well think about Brookfields, this after repeatedly ignoring requests to get a ruling on the legality of Brookfield "contractors"
So sorry if I agree to disagree with you about the union being the cure to all our ills! If there is one thing I have learnt in life is that no matter what people say they will always look after themselves and their family first and foremost and the rest of us can go and get stuffed
Lets try and be like CX shall we? Have you read the Fragrant Harbour Forum recently?
Violation of Conditions of Service, disregard for Seniority and thus bypass pay, issues with a Union that is virtually impotent, no real increase in wages for a long long time, ULR and reduction in crew numbers using of basings to lower T and C's of SO and Fo's based in HK. Something to aspire to is it?
Or BA, introduction of a low cost long haul subsidiary on dramatically lower t and c's than mainline, no integration of seniority numbers, no life style protection and all this under a company that is seen as the bastion of BALPA?
Or Virgin, who when they entered the Australian market under Virgin Blue significantly under cut the t and c's of the current 737 pilots and introduced pay for your type ratings to Australia. Then once again reduced terms when they set up Pac Blue to make them some of the worst paid 737 pilots in the world. All led or at least aided and abetted by Richard Branson. He also repeated this feat with Virgin America, whose terms are substantially below those of Southwest pilots.
Whilst I agree this whole charade on unpaid leave is abhorrent and sets a precedent for the future I ask you this. If RYR was to form a union under BALPA and the members balloted for a strike, would you be there in the times of need? Would you support your "comrades" financially? Would you refuse to crew a flight if it was sub leased to RYR? Would you be there to offer a job to those that lose it? Would you be on the picket line as well?
I seem to recall a famous strike in Australia in 1989 that had all people preaching unity unity unity for better t's and c's and when push came to shove it was every man for himself! We had airline pilots coming back into GA and taking jobs off guys who had done the hard yards. But remember they were doing this to protect our conditions. In the end those that could buggered off OS or went back to work!
I WAS a member of BALPA and went to all the meetings until some Fecking Idiot sent out the last letter protesting about unpaid leave. Why should I support a cause that will result in my job loss? Unfortunately in my eyes and many others BALPA are just as bad as RYR. They are dividing and conquering, but with a lot more hot air! Instead of trying to unite the group under one pilot body their response? We'll seek recognition for RYR employees first then well think about Brookfields, this after repeatedly ignoring requests to get a ruling on the legality of Brookfield "contractors"
So sorry if I agree to disagree with you about the union being the cure to all our ills! If there is one thing I have learnt in life is that no matter what people say they will always look after themselves and their family first and foremost and the rest of us can go and get stuffed
Last edited by Rhodes13; 22nd Dec 2008 at 10:18.
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I have been a Balpa member in the past and just to give you one example of where it will get you......
At an Easyjet meeting of Balpa I expressed my disappointment at the deal the company were offering and my continuing frustration at the appalling rostering that we had to endure year after year.(Don't believe me ? Ask someone who was there from 1997-2004 ish)
The Balpa spokesman suggested that amongst a few run of the mill others, some helicopter operator in Scotland had been offered a similar deal to the one on the table so basically we should be happy with it! I made the point that Easyjet was not exactly in the same category and we should be aiming just a little higher?!( In fact I just wanted the rostering sorted)
After the meeting I received a call on my mobile from one of the Balpa employees - (not a Easy council member) basically suggesting I should wind my neck in!!!!! I was gobsmacked! I'm sure I reminded him who was paying his salary and probably swore once or twice at him......
Anyway you self righteous posters constantly telling us Ryanair pilots what useless low down tossers we are should really have a look at the whole industry.Grim for example - do you really know what other companies are like? I don't think you do.Keep dreaming of your own little fantasy island you recall from years gone by.
To the one percent of pilots I have met who would put their money where their mouth is.........I apologise. To the rest of you I suggest having a look at yourselves before getting on your white chargers and pointing fingers.
I meet a lot of Ryanair pilots in my work and the vast majority are happy with their lot. Most guys who have been around appreciate that stable rosters and decent money are the big attraction and that is what Ryanair offers.Like anywhere it has its moments but I for one quite like it!
Merry XMAS to my Ryanair colleagues.
At an Easyjet meeting of Balpa I expressed my disappointment at the deal the company were offering and my continuing frustration at the appalling rostering that we had to endure year after year.(Don't believe me ? Ask someone who was there from 1997-2004 ish)
The Balpa spokesman suggested that amongst a few run of the mill others, some helicopter operator in Scotland had been offered a similar deal to the one on the table so basically we should be happy with it! I made the point that Easyjet was not exactly in the same category and we should be aiming just a little higher?!( In fact I just wanted the rostering sorted)
After the meeting I received a call on my mobile from one of the Balpa employees - (not a Easy council member) basically suggesting I should wind my neck in!!!!! I was gobsmacked! I'm sure I reminded him who was paying his salary and probably swore once or twice at him......
Anyway you self righteous posters constantly telling us Ryanair pilots what useless low down tossers we are should really have a look at the whole industry.Grim for example - do you really know what other companies are like? I don't think you do.Keep dreaming of your own little fantasy island you recall from years gone by.
To the one percent of pilots I have met who would put their money where their mouth is.........I apologise. To the rest of you I suggest having a look at yourselves before getting on your white chargers and pointing fingers.
I meet a lot of Ryanair pilots in my work and the vast majority are happy with their lot. Most guys who have been around appreciate that stable rosters and decent money are the big attraction and that is what Ryanair offers.Like anywhere it has its moments but I for one quite like it!
Merry XMAS to my Ryanair colleagues.
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Stan and Rhodes, at the very real risk of incurring the unbridled wrath of Grim, Kremin et al I have to say that in relation to BALPA what you say is pretty much my experience. In a previous UK company (BMI) the union reps were in the main just trying to smooth their way into a management position, and I too have cringed at desultory offers which were "the best we can do" ( negotiated over a game of golf and a couple of pints down the local lodge of course 
) Having said that the current easyjet deal is a bit more robust, although I fear it may be allowed to slip through their fingers bit by bit if they don't take care.
I believe IALPA are cut from a different cloth, and indeed last year when there was a possibility to make progress it was the BALPA chief (now gone) who let the side down. Having said that I know there has been a great deal of dissapointment at the failures to progress in the Irish courts, but the reason for that lies even higher up the food chain I believe.
In any case unions are in it for their own good of course, it's a business like any other , and Ryanair is a very tasty morsel that they have so far failled to get a hold of.
As you say, many of us can tell the difference between reality and idealism, you are undoubtedly in that camp.
All the best for 2009, lets hope the situation improves for all of us in this industry.
) Having said that the current easyjet deal is a bit more robust, although I fear it may be allowed to slip through their fingers bit by bit if they don't take care.I believe IALPA are cut from a different cloth, and indeed last year when there was a possibility to make progress it was the BALPA chief (now gone) who let the side down. Having said that I know there has been a great deal of dissapointment at the failures to progress in the Irish courts, but the reason for that lies even higher up the food chain I believe.
In any case unions are in it for their own good of course, it's a business like any other , and Ryanair is a very tasty morsel that they have so far failled to get a hold of.
As you say, many of us can tell the difference between reality and idealism, you are undoubtedly in that camp.
All the best for 2009, lets hope the situation improves for all of us in this industry.
Last edited by captplaystation; 22nd Dec 2008 at 12:08.
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The industry isn't going to improve when the ryanair pilots continue to accept erosion of their Ts and Cs is it?
Better airlines look over to them and think well if those guys will work 900 hrs for those conditions and rubbish pension lets try it on our lot. Certainly the new joiners in better companies are suffering like this.
Do you ryanair pilots honestly think you have good terms and conditions? The fact is you don't, they are amongst the worst in the U.K. and they are getting worse.
Look down the road to when you are retiring. How many hours will you still be working at 50 and what pension will you receive when you can't cope anymore?
Better airlines look over to them and think well if those guys will work 900 hrs for those conditions and rubbish pension lets try it on our lot. Certainly the new joiners in better companies are suffering like this.
Do you ryanair pilots honestly think you have good terms and conditions? The fact is you don't, they are amongst the worst in the U.K. and they are getting worse.
Look down the road to when you are retiring. How many hours will you still be working at 50 and what pension will you receive when you can't cope anymore?
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Fair point,but. . . . just because these terms were accepted in RYR ( which has a fairly unusual mix of nationalities / personalities 
and different contacts ) that doesn't stop you fighting your corner ,or blaming the Ryanair guys if you end up with the same. It is easy to say "you should fight for better", but that equally applies to you wherever you are when your turn comes 
How many hours will we be working at 50 ? that depends on how much input the IAA / CAA or whoever is willing to make, so far it doesn't fill me full of confidence, the company will always make the case for more but will the authority agree ?
BTW, lucky you if you have enough dosh to retire at 50, most of us are probably looking at a few more years than that even at 900hrs/year.
and different contacts ) that doesn't stop you fighting your corner ,or blaming the Ryanair guys if you end up with the same. It is easy to say "you should fight for better", but that equally applies to you wherever you are when your turn comes How many hours will we be working at 50 ? that depends on how much input the IAA / CAA or whoever is willing to make, so far it doesn't fill me full of confidence, the company will always make the case for more but will the authority agree ?
BTW, lucky you if you have enough dosh to retire at 50, most of us are probably looking at a few more years than that even at 900hrs/year.
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Rhodes13,
Hope you can feed your family when more leave (unpaid) is IMPOSED on you then next year.
And the year after that.
In fact, in a couple of years, you will probably be pushed out (too expensive), once all the newbies have enough hours, experience and willingness to be in Command on an FO wage.....
Good luck. You will need it with so little resolve.
Hope you can feed your family when more leave (unpaid) is IMPOSED on you then next year.
And the year after that.
In fact, in a couple of years, you will probably be pushed out (too expensive), once all the newbies have enough hours, experience and willingness to be in Command on an FO wage.....
Good luck. You will need it with so little resolve.
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To expand: Reading many threads there is a common comment that T's & C's will deteriorate as long as employees let them. True, but secondly, the competition pays very close attention to what anyone does to reduce costs and increase revenue. If one group of pilots accept XYZ for long enough then the competition will follow suit. Then there is no greener grass.
Same applies to passengers and their T's & C's. 10 years ago who would have thought their conditions would have eroded to today's standard. They will normally vote with their feet, but when the competition saw that pax would pay for check-in, & bags and prority boarding and almost everything which used to be inclusive, even credit card fees, they all jumped on board. Have pax figures dwindled? Not too much on the LoCo's. Pax are as prostitutional as crew until there is a real alternative with significant different value. Price will not always win the day, but it's the starting point. LoCo is great for short flights, but enough will pay the extra for a deent seat space.
With crew the equation is more complcated. Higher wages does not always mean more disposal income and happy families.
Same applies to passengers and their T's & C's. 10 years ago who would have thought their conditions would have eroded to today's standard. They will normally vote with their feet, but when the competition saw that pax would pay for check-in, & bags and prority boarding and almost everything which used to be inclusive, even credit card fees, they all jumped on board. Have pax figures dwindled? Not too much on the LoCo's. Pax are as prostitutional as crew until there is a real alternative with significant different value. Price will not always win the day, but it's the starting point. LoCo is great for short flights, but enough will pay the extra for a deent seat space.
With crew the equation is more complcated. Higher wages does not always mean more disposal income and happy families.
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Ryanairdontcare - too cryptic for me mate. Maybe try speaking normally like you were talking to a friend or something. That way we could all understand what you were trying to say.
A very interesting discussion. There are many people stuck in the past here like Stan. All very sad as it was at easyJet (allegedly) between 1997 and 2004, that is yesterday's news. The easyJet he left is not the one that exists now and consequently we still have a queue of Ryanair pilots awaiting interviews when the recruitment tap switches on again. There was a time when working for Ryanair seemed a better option than working for easyJet but that is no longer the case, and has not been so for some years. The key thing about that period is that it was only when large numbers of people joined BALPA that the battle could be won. As Stan has rightly observed it was a difficult time but that has dramatically turned in the last 5 years, largely due to BALPA's efforts. The tragedy of our situation is that we are well into the process of reinventing the wheel - there are still people out there who think that 1% is too much and that because things have become good they will remain so. Nothing could be further from the truth. As Ryanair pilots are discovering, if you let managers 'manage' without the checks and balances afforded by collective representation you get totally unacceptable practices. We at easyJet will also face the same problem if we do not maintain our support for BALPA. It is a warning to us all.
A very interesting discussion. There are many people stuck in the past here like Stan. All very sad as it was at easyJet (allegedly) between 1997 and 2004, that is yesterday's news. The easyJet he left is not the one that exists now and consequently we still have a queue of Ryanair pilots awaiting interviews when the recruitment tap switches on again. There was a time when working for Ryanair seemed a better option than working for easyJet but that is no longer the case, and has not been so for some years. The key thing about that period is that it was only when large numbers of people joined BALPA that the battle could be won. As Stan has rightly observed it was a difficult time but that has dramatically turned in the last 5 years, largely due to BALPA's efforts. The tragedy of our situation is that we are well into the process of reinventing the wheel - there are still people out there who think that 1% is too much and that because things have become good they will remain so. Nothing could be further from the truth. As Ryanair pilots are discovering, if you let managers 'manage' without the checks and balances afforded by collective representation you get totally unacceptable practices. We at easyJet will also face the same problem if we do not maintain our support for BALPA. It is a warning to us all.
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Norman
In Fact Balpa had little to do with Easy raising their game.
300 pilots leaving Easyjet in a 3 year period had everything to do with it.
Ask the easyjet FO's about command prospects before commenting about which way people are moving.
Ironically I think it is you who is living in the past.
In Fact Balpa had little to do with Easy raising their game.
300 pilots leaving Easyjet in a 3 year period had everything to do with it.
Ask the easyjet FO's about command prospects before commenting about which way people are moving.
Ironically I think it is you who is living in the past.
