Swissair vs. Crossair
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ft, Lauderdale,FL
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Swissair vs. Crossair
The fact that SR will soon be another proud carrier that has gone by the wayside is a tragedy. What is an equal tragedy is the erosion of pay and benefits that the pilots of this airline will now have to endure. Pilot salaries will not make or break this new carrier. Management will. The fact that Switzerland is a small country with most of its professional pilot corps. now under one umbrella presents a unique opportunity that should be capitalized on. Former Swissair and Crossair pilots now have to unite and put their differences aside and work together to form a new union and demand salaries with work rules they deserve. Under no condition should SR pilots accept a 35% percent paycut. Salaries at Crossair should rise by 35%.
Stand tall!
Stand tall!
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: By the sea
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BULL****!
If you take the time to see how the world realy is, you will realise, as the rest of us do, that no special preconditions exist as to the industrial negotiations in respect of pilots.
Crossair succeeds because it defines itself by what SR was not....flexible, responsive, dynamic, realistic, modern, and above all, well lead.
If you dislike the prospect of what's on offer at LX, try pizza delivery or taxi driving, and stand tall while you do that. This kind of work is evidently more appropriate to men of your particular vision.
If you take the time to see how the world realy is, you will realise, as the rest of us do, that no special preconditions exist as to the industrial negotiations in respect of pilots.
Crossair succeeds because it defines itself by what SR was not....flexible, responsive, dynamic, realistic, modern, and above all, well lead.
If you dislike the prospect of what's on offer at LX, try pizza delivery or taxi driving, and stand tall while you do that. This kind of work is evidently more appropriate to men of your particular vision.
Person Of Interest
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Age: 68
Posts: 842
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think Crossair is a new company. Will SR and Crossair combine to make one "new" company, and if so, what will it be called.
As far as salary, to my knowledge, Crossair has been employing contract pilots at a fairly good wage for some time...better than it's own pilot's wages...
Makes me wonder what will happen now, as I have many friends at Crossair, both contract and perm employees...
As far as salary, to my knowledge, Crossair has been employing contract pilots at a fairly good wage for some time...better than it's own pilot's wages...
Makes me wonder what will happen now, as I have many friends at Crossair, both contract and perm employees...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ft, Lauderdale,FL
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That posting obviously drew some fire.
Some years ago the pilots at my airlines regional had stickers on their kitbags that said: 80/80/80, meaning if management was willing to give them the mainlines DC9-80's they would fly them for 80 000 US. a year at an 80 hour month. Mainline pilots drew 175000 US. a year at 75 hours. As pilots, we are our own worst enemies. I bet the whole Crossair seniority list is salivating at the bit to be able to fly an MD11 at some rediculous rate. If LX is so well managed then they can afford to pay better. Demand that they do.
Some years ago the pilots at my airlines regional had stickers on their kitbags that said: 80/80/80, meaning if management was willing to give them the mainlines DC9-80's they would fly them for 80 000 US. a year at an 80 hour month. Mainline pilots drew 175000 US. a year at 75 hours. As pilots, we are our own worst enemies. I bet the whole Crossair seniority list is salivating at the bit to be able to fly an MD11 at some rediculous rate. If LX is so well managed then they can afford to pay better. Demand that they do.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: By the sea
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've got a new sticker for you raas767!
26/26/100
The 100 is for percent.
The rest you can think about while you deliver the Quatrostagione with extra anchovies.
PS Economics 101
Market dictates rates of pay. Aircraft type is completely irrelevant. Productivity is not.
26/26/100
The 100 is for percent.
The rest you can think about while you deliver the Quatrostagione with extra anchovies.
PS Economics 101
Market dictates rates of pay. Aircraft type is completely irrelevant. Productivity is not.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ft, Lauderdale,FL
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aircraft type certainly is relevent. The more revenue you generate for the corporation the more you should get payed. An MD11 should pay far more than a Jungle Jet or an Avro. Yes, the market determines pay to a certain extent, but your closest market competitor is now other mainline European carriers. Can your ego accept 35% below their rates? In business you don't get what you deserve, you get what you can negotiate. Have the balls to excersise some leverage!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
YY
Presumably you are speaking as an expert on both airlines, or being a pilot (20 hours Cessna whatever) you understand the market better than others do.
When you retired from the RAF after a couple of weeks not becoming an officer or aircrew you no doubt tried taxi driving or pizza delivery and can speak with considerably more authority on those subjects. Are you still working on hospital death wards or does your new company really do extra anchovies with a quatro stagione? If so, can you deliver one to my residence and a margarita for Mrs CDS (extra olives, please)?
Ciao!
Presumably you are speaking as an expert on both airlines, or being a pilot (20 hours Cessna whatever) you understand the market better than others do.
When you retired from the RAF after a couple of weeks not becoming an officer or aircrew you no doubt tried taxi driving or pizza delivery and can speak with considerably more authority on those subjects. Are you still working on hospital death wards or does your new company really do extra anchovies with a quatro stagione? If so, can you deliver one to my residence and a margarita for Mrs CDS (extra olives, please)?
Ciao!
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IN fact yy LX is neither well led nor particularly efficient ,it has relied heavily on a SR wet lease to generate revenue over the years & SR pilots are far more productive (using any marketing indices you care to name)it now has 82 A/C (5 different types)& has really little chance of understanding nor running an intercontinental operation,I would suggest that apart from a handful of ex SR retirees not one LX pilot has ever operated on a long haul flight doesn´t really inspire confidence does it,all LX MD 80 pilots were trained by ex SR personnel & rumour has it that the new CEO failed in his command training on this A/C,it´s simply a question of training & ability LX can reach the standard but some will fall by the wayside.By the way any idea when Suter will replace the ADAS & cargo smoke detectors he removed from the ex SR MD80´s he operates ,Like I said it´s all a matter of standards ....not pilots salaries,I feel "flexible & dynamic" means work when told to;... free days included ,& ignore duty regulations even though you are exhausted.Anyway it´s probably all academic now ,SR senior management was pitiful I agree, but will the new team be any better I certainly hope so! but they will have to stop behaving like archetypal used car salesmen & look after the troops much better than at present.
SkyGod
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
1 Post
raas 767.
Hi man, shoot me an e-mail:
[email protected]
Looks like we are neigbors and fly same type for same company. Ya drink beer?
TD
Hi man, shoot me an e-mail:
[email protected]
Looks like we are neigbors and fly same type for same company. Ya drink beer?
TD
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Basel CH
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Tower Dog,
Maybe you have to fill in Raas767 about the salary that American is paying you. I have to admit that I was totally amazed to read that AA pay is that low for starting FO´s... With the cost of living in SE Florida, it must be hard to get by. I hope all the best for you and AA in the future !
Raas767,
Check out the salary AA is paying Tower Dog on the UNIQUE Swiss Pilot´s thread, before judging or worrying about the payscale at LX !
http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb. cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016279&p=2
BTW guys/gals, how is the weather in FLL ? (I did some flying from FXE and FLL !)
[ 28 October 2001: Message edited by: Saab 2000 Driver ]
Maybe you have to fill in Raas767 about the salary that American is paying you. I have to admit that I was totally amazed to read that AA pay is that low for starting FO´s... With the cost of living in SE Florida, it must be hard to get by. I hope all the best for you and AA in the future !
Raas767,
Check out the salary AA is paying Tower Dog on the UNIQUE Swiss Pilot´s thread, before judging or worrying about the payscale at LX !
http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb. cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016279&p=2
BTW guys/gals, how is the weather in FLL ? (I did some flying from FXE and FLL !)
[ 28 October 2001: Message edited by: Saab 2000 Driver ]
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crossair is obviously having some problems as far as internal communication is concerned. I was called two weeks ago to see if I was still interested in being invited to the selection, got my IR and Multi ratings renewed only to find out last Thursday that all recruiting has been suspended.
How nice to spend another bunch of money, stretch the bank's patience a little more, only to be told thanks but no thanks. Especially as it was them who called, not me.
I am becoming a bit more cynical every day. "Believe it when you see it", "don't count your chickens before they hatch" and "if it sounds too good to be true, it is" are starting to become the morals to live by in this industry. It really is a sad situation.
Anyhow, just thought I'd get my two cent's worth about Crossair. I thought this was a good company, but they seem to be just like all the others.
How nice to spend another bunch of money, stretch the bank's patience a little more, only to be told thanks but no thanks. Especially as it was them who called, not me.
I am becoming a bit more cynical every day. "Believe it when you see it", "don't count your chickens before they hatch" and "if it sounds too good to be true, it is" are starting to become the morals to live by in this industry. It really is a sad situation.
Anyhow, just thought I'd get my two cent's worth about Crossair. I thought this was a good company, but they seem to be just like all the others.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Decimal Brain,
I won't comment on what impression your statement of "being on the inside" brings to mind when referring to Crossair, but I can comment on a completely false statement you make.
Either things were different when YOU were at Crossair, or have changed since I have been at Crossair, but stating that Crossair sticks "to the letter of the law" when it comes to Flight Time Limitations is but a sign of your brash ignorance. The new CEO of Crossair, and his lieutenant have repeatedly forced many crews (99.9% of whom are just too scared to resist, for fear of being fired or suspended) to operate without the required rest, or in excess of the maximum duty or flight times. I know first hand. I have WRITTEN evidence. The FOCA (for those who don't know, the FOCA is the Swiss equivalent of the US Federal Aviation Administration) has WRITTEN evidence, on which they DID NOT ACT! Is it any wonder, since the FOCA has inspectors working for and being paid as Captains at Crossair? There IS no law to follow when it comes to Crossair, and Crossair exploits this to the fullest. Pilots who DON'T fly broken airplanes not covered by the MEL, who DON'T go below minima to land in Lugano, and who DON'T disregard "the law" (whether it be the Flight Time Limitations, Crossair Flight Operations Manuals, or the Aircraft Flight Manual), do NOT REMAIN at Crossair. They either leave on their own principle, or are asked to leave.
As regards flying experience and the ability to be able to handle the jobs of the former Swissair pilots, I have no doubt of the capability of the pilots of Crossair. Their training is EXCELLENT (having PERSONALLY compared it to many other operations, both regional and international), and their standardization is second to none. The only negatives that can be stated about Crossair as compared to Swissair are those which I have already stated above. The reason Swissair is bankrupt and Crossair is not, is that Swissair DIDN'T cut corners when it came to safety and the law.
That's all I have to say, B747 Captain (whoop-dee-doo). I'd like to see you in a simulator evaluation with ANY Crossair First Officer! I'm sure it would be "interesting."
I won't comment on what impression your statement of "being on the inside" brings to mind when referring to Crossair, but I can comment on a completely false statement you make.
Either things were different when YOU were at Crossair, or have changed since I have been at Crossair, but stating that Crossair sticks "to the letter of the law" when it comes to Flight Time Limitations is but a sign of your brash ignorance. The new CEO of Crossair, and his lieutenant have repeatedly forced many crews (99.9% of whom are just too scared to resist, for fear of being fired or suspended) to operate without the required rest, or in excess of the maximum duty or flight times. I know first hand. I have WRITTEN evidence. The FOCA (for those who don't know, the FOCA is the Swiss equivalent of the US Federal Aviation Administration) has WRITTEN evidence, on which they DID NOT ACT! Is it any wonder, since the FOCA has inspectors working for and being paid as Captains at Crossair? There IS no law to follow when it comes to Crossair, and Crossair exploits this to the fullest. Pilots who DON'T fly broken airplanes not covered by the MEL, who DON'T go below minima to land in Lugano, and who DON'T disregard "the law" (whether it be the Flight Time Limitations, Crossair Flight Operations Manuals, or the Aircraft Flight Manual), do NOT REMAIN at Crossair. They either leave on their own principle, or are asked to leave.
As regards flying experience and the ability to be able to handle the jobs of the former Swissair pilots, I have no doubt of the capability of the pilots of Crossair. Their training is EXCELLENT (having PERSONALLY compared it to many other operations, both regional and international), and their standardization is second to none. The only negatives that can be stated about Crossair as compared to Swissair are those which I have already stated above. The reason Swissair is bankrupt and Crossair is not, is that Swissair DIDN'T cut corners when it came to safety and the law.
That's all I have to say, B747 Captain (whoop-dee-doo). I'd like to see you in a simulator evaluation with ANY Crossair First Officer! I'm sure it would be "interesting."
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ft, Lauderdale,FL
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know exactly what AA is paying Tower Dog. **** . His situation, however, will improve dramatically in year two. APA started "B" scale in 1984 and it took the union 20 years and 4 contracts to dig itself out. They did though, through some very difficult negotiations, with the toughest airline CEO this business has ever seen.
My postings on this forum is not intended to offend anyone, but I have watched one of my best friends, who is a Swissair pilot, go through paycut after paycut as SR's management has destroyed the airline through almost criminal incopetence while i'm sure each incompetent management team after another colected thier generous severence pay as a once proud Flag carrier was missmanaged into oblivion.
So. Pay and benefits, not to mention pension, that took 65 years to establish will soon evaporate to be replaced by what? What will Crossair pay an MD11 captain? A A320 captain, A A330 captain? The point is that in all this carnage lies an opportunity, because there is only one airline. They can't leverage one against the other. This should be the beginning of a drive to strengthen the union at Crossair , provide it with some teath, loby to change laws that allow you to strike and bring wages up, not down. What could possibly be the downside to that?
My postings on this forum is not intended to offend anyone, but I have watched one of my best friends, who is a Swissair pilot, go through paycut after paycut as SR's management has destroyed the airline through almost criminal incopetence while i'm sure each incompetent management team after another colected thier generous severence pay as a once proud Flag carrier was missmanaged into oblivion.
So. Pay and benefits, not to mention pension, that took 65 years to establish will soon evaporate to be replaced by what? What will Crossair pay an MD11 captain? A A320 captain, A A330 captain? The point is that in all this carnage lies an opportunity, because there is only one airline. They can't leverage one against the other. This should be the beginning of a drive to strengthen the union at Crossair , provide it with some teath, loby to change laws that allow you to strike and bring wages up, not down. What could possibly be the downside to that?
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: By the sea
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Raas767:
"What could possibly be the downside to that?"
AFAP
BeCA "we would rather see Sabena destroyed than restructured"
Aeropers
Hows that for starters?
Unions, especially pilot unions, need to revisit how they perceive themselves. It is no longer appropriate that dinosaurs left over from the industrial revolution create an 'us versus them' environment since the interests of airline staff and management are co-incident.
The market will determine whats on offer. If its unacceptable, go elsewhere! Lets all be a PART of the market forces which are shaping our industry, rather than throwing our teddies from the cot!
Blurred Vision:
Plump, fleshy and insane people shouldn't be in charge of keyboards late at night. Ask nursie for your meds.
[ 29 October 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]
"What could possibly be the downside to that?"
AFAP
BeCA "we would rather see Sabena destroyed than restructured"
Aeropers
Hows that for starters?
Unions, especially pilot unions, need to revisit how they perceive themselves. It is no longer appropriate that dinosaurs left over from the industrial revolution create an 'us versus them' environment since the interests of airline staff and management are co-incident.
The market will determine whats on offer. If its unacceptable, go elsewhere! Lets all be a PART of the market forces which are shaping our industry, rather than throwing our teddies from the cot!
Blurred Vision:
Plump, fleshy and insane people shouldn't be in charge of keyboards late at night. Ask nursie for your meds.
[ 29 October 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Basel CH
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
liv2fly :
Sorry to hear that you will not be invited to an interview, BUT if you would have bothered to keep track of the news in the past 2 months you could have anticipated this...
Vision,
You are obviously a frustrated SR pilot in denial, who likes to spead bad rumours about Crossair. Sticking or not sticking to procedures during the past 5 years (in a bullish economy !) does not cause a 15 billion dept and is not the reason for Swissair´s financial problems, nor for Crossair´s success. Swissair cut one major corner, that is in economic thinking !
Sorry
to hear that you will not be invited to an interview, BUT if you would have bothered to keep track of the news in the past 2 months you could have anticipated this...Vision,
You are obviously a frustrated SR pilot in denial, who likes to spead bad rumours about Crossair. Sticking or not sticking to procedures during the past 5 years (in a bullish economy !) does not cause a 15 billion dept and is not the reason for Swissair´s financial problems, nor for Crossair´s success. Swissair cut one major corner, that is in economic thinking !
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Swissair is now bankrupt because it's management embarked on a foolish buying spree, to try and get a foot hold into the european union after it's people ( in ignorance ) voted to stay outside the E.U.
Swissair was a well run, safe and very satisfying company to fly for. The company did not go broke because it's pilots were payed a middle figure European salary.
Now Crossair is moving in to pick up the pieces it wants and dump the rest. the traveling swiss public mean nothing to crossair management
If Crossair pilots love thier job and their salary SO MUCH, then let them stay on it and we can have two seniority lists and two pay scales in the new company. One paying a real salary and the others can do their job for the love of Moris and thier current money. the new company will not go under because pilots are being payed a fair wage...
Crossair pilots should see this as a chance to get out of a mikey mouse company into a real new airline, with proper conditions and pay, instead of trying to cut down all the tall poppies.
Swissair was a well run, safe and very satisfying company to fly for. The company did not go broke because it's pilots were payed a middle figure European salary.
Now Crossair is moving in to pick up the pieces it wants and dump the rest. the traveling swiss public mean nothing to crossair management
If Crossair pilots love thier job and their salary SO MUCH, then let them stay on it and we can have two seniority lists and two pay scales in the new company. One paying a real salary and the others can do their job for the love of Moris and thier current money. the new company will not go under because pilots are being payed a fair wage...
Crossair pilots should see this as a chance to get out of a mikey mouse company into a real new airline, with proper conditions and pay, instead of trying to cut down all the tall poppies.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ft, Lauderdale,FL
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yak Yak.
I'm not going to defend any Sabena pilots for their statements.
The market only sets the ballpark for negotiations. Look what Delta and United achieved in their last contract. ( Don't blame the pilots for UAL's current problems. Goodwin is a moron).
..."the interst of airline staff and management are co-incident." Where have you been? Do you remember Lorenzo, Icahn or Wolf. Ask anyone unfortunate enough to have worked for an airline that these men rampaged and see if his interest was "co-incidental"!
As for these dinosaurs you mention. If you are an airline pilot, and I hope you are so I'm not wasting my time explaining this to you, they made the job what it is today. You should thank them.
I'm not going to defend any Sabena pilots for their statements.
The market only sets the ballpark for negotiations. Look what Delta and United achieved in their last contract. ( Don't blame the pilots for UAL's current problems. Goodwin is a moron).
..."the interst of airline staff and management are co-incident." Where have you been? Do you remember Lorenzo, Icahn or Wolf. Ask anyone unfortunate enough to have worked for an airline that these men rampaged and see if his interest was "co-incidental"!
As for these dinosaurs you mention. If you are an airline pilot, and I hope you are so I'm not wasting my time explaining this to you, they made the job what it is today. You should thank them.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ft, Lauderdale,FL
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mikeboy.
I take it you are an SR pilot. I'm truly sorry for you guys. Swissair was a class act that was destroyed by incompetent management. Are you allowed to sue in Switzerland?
I take it you are an SR pilot. I'm truly sorry for you guys. Swissair was a class act that was destroyed by incompetent management. Are you allowed to sue in Switzerland?
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Basel CH
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh really Mikeyboy !
Let me quote you for a moment : “Crossair pilots should see this as a chance to get out of a mikey mouse company into a real new airline, with proper conditions and pay, instead of trying to cut down all the tall poppies.”
Strange that we LX pilots should now thank SR pilots for trying to get us some decent pay. You want the whole world to believe that SR pilot are generous and caring colleagues ?? Please !
The REAL reason is that SR pilots are a bunch of arrogant and selfish snobs who never cared, nor wanted to help LX get better working conditions.
In the beginning of this year (when Crossair was still owned by SR Group for 70 %) the CCP launched the ´conzern pilot´ concept with as goal harmonizing the working conditions between LX and SR. In order to achieve this, Aeropres support was vital. As it turns out, Aeropers never responded to ANY of these suggestions made by CCP… Obviously we were ´just´ employees working for a “mickey mouse company, ” not even worthy to say hello to, let alone gathering around a table and helping eachother !
Now that SR is bankrupt, all over sudden SR pilots are concerned for the LX working conditions !? Please stop your pathetic, selfish and hypocritical bullsh!t !
I have to admit that almost everybody in LX felt sorry for our SR colleagues duing the initial phase of SR´s bankruptsy, but now sympathy is quickly wearing off. With you as future collueagues, we no longer need any enemies !
Getting screwed by managment is one thing, getting screwed by colleagues is another !
[ 29 October 2001: Message edited by: Saab 2000 Driver ]
Let me quote you for a moment : “Crossair pilots should see this as a chance to get out of a mikey mouse company into a real new airline, with proper conditions and pay, instead of trying to cut down all the tall poppies.”
Strange that we LX pilots should now thank SR pilots for trying to get us some decent pay. You want the whole world to believe that SR pilot are generous and caring colleagues ?? Please !
The REAL reason is that SR pilots are a bunch of arrogant and selfish snobs who never cared, nor wanted to help LX get better working conditions.
In the beginning of this year (when Crossair was still owned by SR Group for 70 %) the CCP launched the ´conzern pilot´ concept with as goal harmonizing the working conditions between LX and SR. In order to achieve this, Aeropres support was vital. As it turns out, Aeropers never responded to ANY of these suggestions made by CCP… Obviously we were ´just´ employees working for a “mickey mouse company, ” not even worthy to say hello to, let alone gathering around a table and helping eachother !
Now that SR is bankrupt, all over sudden SR pilots are concerned for the LX working conditions !? Please stop your pathetic, selfish and hypocritical bullsh!t !
I have to admit that almost everybody in LX felt sorry for our SR colleagues duing the initial phase of SR´s bankruptsy, but now sympathy is quickly wearing off. With you as future collueagues, we no longer need any enemies !
Getting screwed by managment is one thing, getting screwed by colleagues is another !
[ 29 October 2001: Message edited by: Saab 2000 Driver ]
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree the conzern pilot idea was quite reasonable ,& would have been workable;clearly a cock up by Aeropers & the Ccp that it didn´t work out! but contracts in Switzerland don´t mean a thing when the senior management decide otherwise,there is simply not an ethical or judicial framework in place to honour contracts .All academic now I´m afraid .I have a lot of friends at LX ,not such a snob you see,& I hope you do eventually get reasonable wages & conditions ,do listen to some of your new SR ´colleagues´they are not arrogant & might help you all in the new airline create a conzern pilot model where you will have a bright future ...I really hope so,Best of luck to all