Swissair vs. Crossair
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Hi Cisco Kid !
I wasnīt talking about ALL SR pilots.
Nevertheless, I donīt think it was CCPīs fault that it never happened, it was simly torpedoed by Aeropers. "Yeah, weīll think about it" was their only reply.
I flew with a member of the CCP board roughly two weeks ago, and it turns out that Aeropers is applying the same strategy towards the recent LX/SR developments. Phonecalles from CCP are not returned, faxes are left unanswered... :o
Last week a CCP meeting was held and all SR pilot were invited. Problem was that Aeropers never bothered to tell itīs members... :o
I think that many SR pilot will find the door to both CCP and Crossair is open. We welcome new members/colleagues and this in return will make us stronger when negotiating a new contract.
What everybody at Crossair is ABSOLUTELY sick of is these arrogant Aeropers SR pilots who think that they are too good for any other airline !
I wasnīt talking about ALL SR pilots.
Nevertheless, I donīt think it was CCPīs fault that it never happened, it was simly torpedoed by Aeropers. "Yeah, weīll think about it" was their only reply.
I flew with a member of the CCP board roughly two weeks ago, and it turns out that Aeropers is applying the same strategy towards the recent LX/SR developments. Phonecalles from CCP are not returned, faxes are left unanswered... :o
Last week a CCP meeting was held and all SR pilot were invited. Problem was that Aeropers never bothered to tell itīs members... :o
I think that many SR pilot will find the door to both CCP and Crossair is open. We welcome new members/colleagues and this in return will make us stronger when negotiating a new contract.
What everybody at Crossair is ABSOLUTELY sick of is these arrogant Aeropers SR pilots who think that they are too good for any other airline !
Join Date: Jun 2000
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2 Liter Driver:
I think the time has passed where such vicous attacks serve any useful purpose. The fact is, that Aeropers is a dead duck, and what you're witnessing at the moment is the classic 'death throws'. Every snake wriggles a bit after its head it cut off, but sunset is not far away, and the wriggling will be over soon.
The Ex SR pilots who come to LX WILL be welcomed with open arms, and treated like brothers and sisters. The ONLY way for this to work, is for all of us to work together.
As for pay and conditions, the one certainty in this time of uncertainty, is that there will be an absolutely level playing field, with one collective labour agreement for all, old and new. The Crossair culture and the Crossair principle will be expanded, and certainly not adapted in any way whatsoever, to suit the hystrionic demands of a toothless tiger.
Your frustration about the missed opportunities and blatant ignorance of Aeropers is a matter for the dusty pages of history, just like Aeropers itself, but I feel very stongly, that we should concentrate our efforts on welcoming our new Crossair colleagues soon to join us from Zurich, and above all, working together so that Crossair and Switzerland takes pride of place on the European and world air transport stage.
We have the market capitalisation, we have the equity, we have cost leadership in Europe to create something truly magnificent. It is only the clear risk associated with cultural differences which will slow us down.
TO ALL SWISS PILOTS:
Together, we will be THE prime European player.
LETS GET TO WORK!
I think the time has passed where such vicous attacks serve any useful purpose. The fact is, that Aeropers is a dead duck, and what you're witnessing at the moment is the classic 'death throws'. Every snake wriggles a bit after its head it cut off, but sunset is not far away, and the wriggling will be over soon.
The Ex SR pilots who come to LX WILL be welcomed with open arms, and treated like brothers and sisters. The ONLY way for this to work, is for all of us to work together.
As for pay and conditions, the one certainty in this time of uncertainty, is that there will be an absolutely level playing field, with one collective labour agreement for all, old and new. The Crossair culture and the Crossair principle will be expanded, and certainly not adapted in any way whatsoever, to suit the hystrionic demands of a toothless tiger.
Your frustration about the missed opportunities and blatant ignorance of Aeropers is a matter for the dusty pages of history, just like Aeropers itself, but I feel very stongly, that we should concentrate our efforts on welcoming our new Crossair colleagues soon to join us from Zurich, and above all, working together so that Crossair and Switzerland takes pride of place on the European and world air transport stage.
We have the market capitalisation, we have the equity, we have cost leadership in Europe to create something truly magnificent. It is only the clear risk associated with cultural differences which will slow us down.
TO ALL SWISS PILOTS:
Together, we will be THE prime European player.
LETS GET TO WORK!
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How can you be the prime European player with such a tiny long haul fleet ?(further reductions to come )you will certainly offer a good short haul product, albeit at the lowest salaries & strangest contract in western europe.Aeropers are in their death throes (not throws) true but you could do worse ,if you wish to improve your lot ,than to take some cues from them; otherwise you will be mired forever in an environment which holds no hope for personal improvement,in other words a dead end! remember the high pilot turnover at LX.unknown at SR by the way .YY you are truly a cheer leader for LX(and anything associated with it ..why? ),thatīs commendable but I would suggest that you have experienced nothing else, & believe me the differences are enormous .I hope eventually the new Swiss airline īs staff will reach a fair contract (for All)& the new management are more able than the last lot ...getting īmean & leanīdoesnīt have to mean slash salaries to the bone quite the opposite in fact ...good luck Cisco
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Hey Cisco,
I can't help but notice there's a discernable lack of venom in your posts since you landed that plum corporate job! I'm happy for you.
Again, economics holds the answer to your opening question, but suffice it to say, great oaks from tiny acorns grow.
As to your final question....well, lets just say that if you worked for Crossair, you'd KNOW why!
Congratulations once again, Cisco, and I can't wait to hear how it all turns out. Corporate has its own special challenges, doesn't it! All the best, and good luck to you too.
I can't help but notice there's a discernable lack of venom in your posts since you landed that plum corporate job! I'm happy for you.
Again, economics holds the answer to your opening question, but suffice it to say, great oaks from tiny acorns grow.
As to your final question....well, lets just say that if you worked for Crossair, you'd KNOW why!
Congratulations once again, Cisco, and I can't wait to hear how it all turns out. Corporate has its own special challenges, doesn't it! All the best, and good luck to you too.
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well... here`s some answer for the 2000 trucker and some help for mikey boy
why dont you LX pilots stand up and donnerblitzen fight for a decent salary, because for the salary you get nowadays at the end of the month; i wouldnt even go singing at the salvation army at christmas time (sorry blokes, nothing against the S.A., they do a good job). you and your buddies have a unique chance to upgrade from a regional carrier to a major (yes regional, look at the name of the awards LX got so far) and thus become from a happy pilot with a happy salary to a happy pilot with a decent salary. because i see it as a win/win situation for you LX guys, win in payscale and pilot career.
so stop whining about these arrogant shamelessly overpaid swissair pilots and look at the opportunities that will be given to you: instead of flying around in those long cigars with wings and a coffeebean grinder on each side, you`ll have the outlook of flying a big thing, something youve only read about in handling the big jets so far. if mr BIG M.S. decides by april next year not to include a reduced sr-fleet and only is going to use e.g. some 6 B767`s, youre still a regional, though with a few mid/longrange aircrafts, and you can be sure your pay will still be regional too!!
.
it seems to me that you`re either a young eagerbeaver copilot or an overly company-minded skipper, as it might not have occured to you, that some of the inspired inspirations of intrigue of your CCP-boss, mr T.H. come from the whispers of the mastermind of mr.BIG M.S. so wake up and remember that upgrading in the league of majors also means upgrading your mentality and that is not the mentality of happy pilots flying for food and fun only, the mentality one so often meets in aeroclubs like Birrfeld or Grenchen. so trucker....take your chance or otherwise keep on truckin` and f......
best regards bu!!ship
why dont you LX pilots stand up and donnerblitzen fight for a decent salary, because for the salary you get nowadays at the end of the month; i wouldnt even go singing at the salvation army at christmas time (sorry blokes, nothing against the S.A., they do a good job). you and your buddies have a unique chance to upgrade from a regional carrier to a major (yes regional, look at the name of the awards LX got so far) and thus become from a happy pilot with a happy salary to a happy pilot with a decent salary. because i see it as a win/win situation for you LX guys, win in payscale and pilot career.
so stop whining about these arrogant shamelessly overpaid swissair pilots and look at the opportunities that will be given to you: instead of flying around in those long cigars with wings and a coffeebean grinder on each side, you`ll have the outlook of flying a big thing, something youve only read about in handling the big jets so far. if mr BIG M.S. decides by april next year not to include a reduced sr-fleet and only is going to use e.g. some 6 B767`s, youre still a regional, though with a few mid/longrange aircrafts, and you can be sure your pay will still be regional too!!
.
it seems to me that you`re either a young eagerbeaver copilot or an overly company-minded skipper, as it might not have occured to you, that some of the inspired inspirations of intrigue of your CCP-boss, mr T.H. come from the whispers of the mastermind of mr.BIG M.S. so wake up and remember that upgrading in the league of majors also means upgrading your mentality and that is not the mentality of happy pilots flying for food and fun only, the mentality one so often meets in aeroclubs like Birrfeld or Grenchen. so trucker....take your chance or otherwise keep on truckin` and f......
best regards bu!!ship
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Mikeyboy
You got a serious problem that many other
SR-Pilots share with you - your English is to bad!
You have to improve your English before joining LX!!!
At LX the official language is English and not "Züridüütsch".
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: approver ]
You got a serious problem that many other
SR-Pilots share with you - your English is to bad!
You have to improve your English before joining LX!!!
At LX the official language is English and not "Züridüütsch".
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: approver ]
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vell...APPROVER (vhat a name 4 ze game)...hope you`ll be able to understand ze "problčm and also ze question", and if you need ze translation for zis, pls get yourself ze paperback .."Adolf Hitler...my part in his downfall" written by Spike Milligan in ze 80-ties.
good fun, enjoyable and true story
nice gruss....
bu!!sheet
good fun, enjoyable and true story
nice gruss....
bu!!sheet
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Nothing to do with corporate flying, just a regular(not LX ) captains salary in an airline that pays to industry standards on a large aircraft,YY if you have been promised a bettter deal,after the dust settles, I hope you all get it ; more likely is... Suter in tears saying īhow he īwishes he could pay more ...but economic conditions etc etc ....īactually no venom intended for LX staff & pilots just wish you would stand up to your management,it could be fun ! & productive for you .
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How many pilots does LX have? How many at SR?
Will there be union elections regarding representation? How will the seniority list be integrated? What pay scales will be used?
Will senior SR pilots lose their seat to an LX pilot?
I'm sure these things are being discussed but I havn't heard anything about it.
Will there be union elections regarding representation? How will the seniority list be integrated? What pay scales will be used?
Will senior SR pilots lose their seat to an LX pilot?
I'm sure these things are being discussed but I havn't heard anything about it.
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Boy the tables have turned! Two months ago Swissair pilots were looking down at Crossair
guys (Seat height in MD11's---not attitude) and now those guys might displace them. A warning to all of those pilots at the World's
major airlines----when any pilot walks by and gives you a look and a nod----nod back--
he/she may be your Captain someday.
guys (Seat height in MD11's---not attitude) and now those guys might displace them. A warning to all of those pilots at the World's
major airlines----when any pilot walks by and gives you a look and a nod----nod back--
he/she may be your Captain someday.
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Now seriously Raas767 !
You have quite a big opinion about LX and SR (pay should rise by 35 %) but you donīt even know how big the two pilot corpsīs are ?!?!?! Shame on you ! :o :o :o :o Youīre totally clueless !
Why donīt you mind your own business in FLL and AA, making sure that your COLLEGUE (!) Tower Dog getīs a decent pay check as an F/O on a 767 for a major airline.
Itīs good to have an opinion, but please, you have to know what youīre talking about.
You have quite a big opinion about LX and SR (pay should rise by 35 %) but you donīt even know how big the two pilot corpsīs are ?!?!?! Shame on you ! :o :o :o :o Youīre totally clueless !
Why donīt you mind your own business in FLL and AA, making sure that your COLLEGUE (!) Tower Dog getīs a decent pay check as an F/O on a 767 for a major airline.
Itīs good to have an opinion, but please, you have to know what youīre talking about.
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Saab 200 driver.
What's happening in Switzeland right now could be a precedent setting event and it should be everybodys business who has an interest in thier career. I don't have to know the size of either airline to have an opinion about this issue.
You are certainly right about first year pay at AA, and that will be addressed.
In the mean time,I will continue to have an oppinion and an interest about what goes on with those two companies at the present time.
My questions still stand, maybee you can answer them. Specifically pay and seniority issues.
What's happening in Switzeland right now could be a precedent setting event and it should be everybodys business who has an interest in thier career. I don't have to know the size of either airline to have an opinion about this issue.
You are certainly right about first year pay at AA, and that will be addressed.
In the mean time,I will continue to have an oppinion and an interest about what goes on with those two companies at the present time.
My questions still stand, maybee you can answer them. Specifically pay and seniority issues.
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...and another thing. Swissair, or it's derivative, could soon be a fullblown member of the Oneworld alliance. This alliance includes 26000 pilots and one of our concerns should be to keep pay and benefits within the alliance at the highest possible level. If all of us don't strive for the highest possible standard than what's the point of having a global alliance of pilots?
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RAAs 767, good questions ,I am (was )a senior sr captain now laid off at age 52!,luckily found a new( probably better) position.So make sure when you think it canīt happen to you..itīs THE wet dream of all bean counters to make it so; all the regional boys & girls think they have found the holy grail..time will tell !keep the power & remember what we have fought for over the years .Now the numbers- total job losses 400 pilots,approx 160 from the bottom of the list 240 from the top,...nobody wins .Remaining SR pilots about 800,LX pilots probably more; say 1000.Luckily this is new territory for both pilotīs unions -we are talking amateur night-& the seniority lists will become an issue,look forward to a spectacular bun fight,however with the predestined further reduction of both fleets LX & SR & the bizarre inability of the Swiss to manage in a crisis I would expect the cabin crews to shortly begin their MD11 captains courses ,after all itīs cheaper..the answer is who knows !,but there is no way the LX guys will get their hands on a big aeroplane ..why? because training costs too much! unfair but true.Consequently in the end ,missed opportunities all round & a stupid ego trip that missed the point !everyone has been dragged down to the lowest common demoninator i.e LX pay & conditions.This will not happen within an Alliance; but it is a dangerous precedent,& the bean counters have their dreams of īBenchmarksīdonīt let their dreams become reality...Cisco.
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OK Raas767, point taken ! Ofcourse you have a right to know whatīs going on in Switzerland, but before you voice very strong opinions from the other side of the pond (LX salaries up 35 %, SR salaries not lower than 35 %) , you first have to have some facts.
I understand that no MD11 pilot should fly for a regional salary, but give the negotiations some time. For the SR pilots to simply make demands about DUAL pay scales and DUAL seniority lists is ignorant regarding the position SR is in, and irresponsible in these economic times. Besides that, itīs a stab in the back for their future LX colleagues !
How would you feel if there were 2 pay levels and seniority lists within AA ? Now, Iīm NOT talking about AA and A Eagle, but within AA itself ! For arguments sake, letīs say we draw a line with the MD80 size. How would you react ? Think this is fair ?
As far as LX joining the OneWorld alliance.....I think itīs a LITTLE bit premature to speculate about that now.
It will be important for LX to join some alliance in the future, but there are more urgent matters at this stage of the game, like staying afloat !
Now on a greater scale now, trying (!) to look into the future :
Raas767 is right when he says that this could be a precedent. It also brings to mind something that The Guvnor has been saying about pilotīs salaries for quite some time now.
Like it or not, the new overtrow the old and with it will start a new era. Scope clauses or not, it will happen in the US also !
There are lotīs of unemployed pilots out there hoping about landing a job with an airline. Low demand and high supply does what again with prices/salaries ?
Now, please do NOT blame regional pilots for this ! The errosion of the job of a pilot has been started a long time ago. The pilots working for majors (the same ones who are now crying faul !) are to blame for this. Command has slowly been taken away from them by computers (thank you Airbus !) and dispatchers. In addition, by making themselfs so expensive, more and more has been outsourced to regionals and low cost carriers. The days of the flying heros, defying death, are over and weīve become (Air)bus drivers.
I think the upcoming recession will prove to be a turning point in the aviation industry.
I understand that no MD11 pilot should fly for a regional salary, but give the negotiations some time. For the SR pilots to simply make demands about DUAL pay scales and DUAL seniority lists is ignorant regarding the position SR is in, and irresponsible in these economic times. Besides that, itīs a stab in the back for their future LX colleagues !
How would you feel if there were 2 pay levels and seniority lists within AA ? Now, Iīm NOT talking about AA and A Eagle, but within AA itself ! For arguments sake, letīs say we draw a line with the MD80 size. How would you react ? Think this is fair ?
As far as LX joining the OneWorld alliance.....I think itīs a LITTLE bit premature to speculate about that now.
It will be important for LX to join some alliance in the future, but there are more urgent matters at this stage of the game, like staying afloat !Now on a greater scale now, trying (!) to look into the future :
Raas767 is right when he says that this could be a precedent. It also brings to mind something that The Guvnor has been saying about pilotīs salaries for quite some time now.
Like it or not, the new overtrow the old and with it will start a new era. Scope clauses or not, it will happen in the US also !
There are lotīs of unemployed pilots out there hoping about landing a job with an airline. Low demand and high supply does what again with prices/salaries ?
Now, please do NOT blame regional pilots for this ! The errosion of the job of a pilot has been started a long time ago. The pilots working for majors (the same ones who are now crying faul !) are to blame for this. Command has slowly been taken away from them by computers (thank you Airbus !) and dispatchers. In addition, by making themselfs so expensive, more and more has been outsourced to regionals and low cost carriers. The days of the flying heros, defying death, are over and weīve become (Air)bus drivers.
I think the upcoming recession will prove to be a turning point in the aviation industry.
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hey cisco,
if you'd ever thought of using your brain instead of believing everything balsberg and aeropers fed you, you might have found out for yourself that al lot of your views concerning lx are not true. but none of you bothered to find out for yourselves. how dare you voice an oppinion about our training. I have yet to see one of your lot show up at a lx sim session. you are cordially invited and then you will be able to voice an oppinion based on facts.
btw I'm happy for you that you found a better position. but believe me flying at lx can actually be fun. talk to some of your pals who retired early
so long
if you'd ever thought of using your brain instead of believing everything balsberg and aeropers fed you, you might have found out for yourself that al lot of your views concerning lx are not true. but none of you bothered to find out for yourselves. how dare you voice an oppinion about our training. I have yet to see one of your lot show up at a lx sim session. you are cordially invited and then you will be able to voice an oppinion based on facts.
btw I'm happy for you that you found a better position. but believe me flying at lx can actually be fun. talk to some of your pals who retired early
so long