Swissair vs. Crossair
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I donīt have any views regarding LX training.but I would gladly accept your offer of observing a training session,shall we make a date?,I always enjoy something new. (may I suggest an initial upgrading).Of course as a retirement job LX is fun but why do you accept direct entry retired SR captains?..or have you no choice in the matter, it does slow down promotion doesnīt it ? please get organised.
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Cisco,
as far as I know not one lx pilot had to wait for his upgrade due to a direct entry pic. We've got a sim course for the md 80 planned in january. I'll get back to you with some dates asap.
and !we are organised
so long
as far as I know not one lx pilot had to wait for his upgrade due to a direct entry pic. We've got a sim course for the md 80 planned in january. I'll get back to you with some dates asap.
and !we are organised
so long
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Regarding seniority.
We have just integtated former TWA pilots into our list. I personaly lost 600 numbers so it's very tough to do without making alot of people angry. Since we have 12000 pilots and they have 2400 we used a ratio of about 8to1 in integrating about half of them and the rest ended up on the bottom of the list as of date of acquisition. They aren't happy either.
We also instituted alot of fenceing regarding base and equipment. For example: We can't bid STL until Jan. 2006 and they can't bid out of STL unless they get displaced. They also won't have access to 777 or A300 for a number of years.
It all comes down to career expectation prior to merger. A similar solution might work between LX and SR. No matter what you do though, it's going to be a mess. It always is. Good luck.
We have just integtated former TWA pilots into our list. I personaly lost 600 numbers so it's very tough to do without making alot of people angry. Since we have 12000 pilots and they have 2400 we used a ratio of about 8to1 in integrating about half of them and the rest ended up on the bottom of the list as of date of acquisition. They aren't happy either.
We also instituted alot of fenceing regarding base and equipment. For example: We can't bid STL until Jan. 2006 and they can't bid out of STL unless they get displaced. They also won't have access to 777 or A300 for a number of years.
It all comes down to career expectation prior to merger. A similar solution might work between LX and SR. No matter what you do though, it's going to be a mess. It always is. Good luck.
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One thing you MUST realise, raas767, is that unlike the purchase of TWA by American Airlines, seniority will be a minor issue at Crossair, since Swissair is a company that will simply cease to exist. Unfortunate though it may be, all pre-existing claims to the (rather bogus) notion of seniority will evaporate with the name Swissair.
It is regretable that Crossair has something as ancient and pointless as a seniority list, but that said, the pilots soon to join from the company previously known as Swissair, will join at the bottom.
It won't be a mess at all, I can assure you.
GO SWITZERLAND GO!
It is regretable that Crossair has something as ancient and pointless as a seniority list, but that said, the pilots soon to join from the company previously known as Swissair, will join at the bottom.
It won't be a mess at all, I can assure you.
GO SWITZERLAND GO!
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YAK YAK,
That being said, where do you expect to end up - on which fleet? If you are a current Crossair pilot, do you fully expect to join the revived airline's A330 fleet?
How do you expect this to work? Will there be a new pilot re-bid like at other airlines?
Just curious
That being said, where do you expect to end up - on which fleet? If you are a current Crossair pilot, do you fully expect to join the revived airline's A330 fleet?
How do you expect this to work? Will there be a new pilot re-bid like at other airlines?
Just curious
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Yak Yak.
I find it interesting that you find seniority lists "ancient" and "pointless".
What other meathod would you use to determine what you can bid,who gets laidoff,pay,vacation and everything ellse. Seniority is what makes this job so great. There is no asskissing, I don't even know who my boss is and I don't care, I know that one day I will be a 777 captain regardless of who i **** off, and I have at least an illusion of job security by virtue of my seniority number.
Would you rather have some company nazi run around and try to decide what poeple would fly, where they would be based, and how much money they would make? Can you imagine the miserable environment that would create as everyone is clamoring all over everybody ellse to get the choice positions in the airline. This is what business people have to put up with, not us.
Seniority within an airline is the best of things. The only problem is when you have a merger.
I find it interesting that you find seniority lists "ancient" and "pointless".
What other meathod would you use to determine what you can bid,who gets laidoff,pay,vacation and everything ellse. Seniority is what makes this job so great. There is no asskissing, I don't even know who my boss is and I don't care, I know that one day I will be a 777 captain regardless of who i **** off, and I have at least an illusion of job security by virtue of my seniority number.
Would you rather have some company nazi run around and try to decide what poeple would fly, where they would be based, and how much money they would make? Can you imagine the miserable environment that would create as everyone is clamoring all over everybody ellse to get the choice positions in the airline. This is what business people have to put up with, not us.
Seniority within an airline is the best of things. The only problem is when you have a merger.
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YAK YAK, you really are beginning to become a little OTT,I suspect you are still hour building so wait until you have enough to even be eligible for an ATPL. As for seniority lists ,I donīt know & Iīm sure you donīt either ,letīs put it another way; wait & see. There is no solution which can please everyone,but there can be a solution that is equitable,as you are so concerned about the cost base it wouldnīt make too much sense to retrain everybody in accordance with your suggestion of the īnewīlist.In this business itīs often the luck of the draw which determines oneīs fate as raas 76 says ,see TWA & AA, who Knows LX might also be taken over one day ..& then?
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Dear raas767 and Cisco, (I see your new job delivers as much time off as the old...don't you have Grandchildren?)
The seniority system is absurd.
The only viable determinant of pay and conditions is productivity. This is underscored by the one vital point that constantly seems to escape your attention. AN AIRLINE NEEDS TO BE PROFITABLE.
For those bewildered souls who still maintain that pilot's pay is a negligible part of overall operating costs to an airline, take American Airlines as a moderate example.
Q1 this year, labour costs up US$129m. This corresponds to 61% of the profit made in Q1 the preceding year, and a determining factor behind AA's plumet into loss this year....and that was BEFORE 911!
I believe the route cause of the problem is UAL and its ridiculous increases in pilots pay. A short term expedient engineered by Jim Goodwin that has cost him his job, and made all the greedy pilots of Star Alliance sit up and expect the same.
When UAL is now haemoraging US$20 million every single day, how do we visionary professional pilots respond? ASAP-Association of Star Alliance Pilots. Their committed goal? Raising every alliance cockpit organisation to the same lunatic level, and have even set about comparing notes on pay and conditions and negotiating tactics, in this, the worst operating climate in the history of the aviation industry.
Moreover, every time we cockpit primadonas snarl that we're overworked and underpaid, and yet cling limpet-like to obstructionist seniority lists, all of our fellow airport employees, the fuelers, the baggage handlers, the check-in staff, start to feel exploited and become surly. And, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, surly is NOT GOOD in a service industry!
Have a look at the particularly unedifying BA layoff thread and see how the world's favourite airline STILL views its seniorty list as a way for senior captains to score 3 or 4 high revenue flights per month, and woe-betide you if you stand in the way of that cosy little earner.
If you want to earn megabuks chaps, THEN YOU SHOULD BLOODY WELL WORK FOR THEM. Seniority is a stick to beat airlines and junior colleagues with, and of ensuring restrictive and protectionist trade practices endure ad nauseum....nothing more: nothing less.
SENIORITY LISTS MUST GO.
And so, the contagion of appalling American labour relations has spread accross the globe and infected, among others, Lufthansa, Cathay, Iberia, (don't get me started on Sabena) just at a time when we are fighting for our very survival. Air Transport is as vital to most economies as the railway was a century ago...its time for us to display the leadership expected of such an important profession.
Sure its reasonable to expect an excellent package in return for productivity....whats wrong with a fair day's pay for a fair day's work? Its decent and honest and will, in a post-seniority world, reflect our special status in terms of training, risks to tenure from loss of licence, professionalism(!), responsibility, and so on. The best thing of all, is that it will provide for a truly free market within our pilot corps whereby those prepared to contribute most robustly to the profit of those who employ us, will reap the biggest rewards. No reward, no pilots, because we will all be elsewhere earning a ****load of dosh.
I, like the rest of the reasonable world, realise exactly why you spit your dummies with such blue-faced hystrionics, raas767, Cisco, Hooking, MIKEYBOY, Bu..ship, and the rest. For the first time in a long time, your non-sensical, offensive, padded and protected Fiefdoms are under threat, and its about bloody time.
Fellow airline pilot:
We face a crossroads in our prefessional lives. With airlines teetering on the brink, its time to revisit what we can reasonably expect from our careers. With electonics engineers steering us rapidly toward the day where we can easily be replaced by a systems manager and his pet dog, don't you think its time to do away with failed, immoral, Marxist, anti-competitive, obstructionist nonsense like unions and seniority lists?
Better decide soon, or when you DO finally know the joy of Grandchildren, Cisco, you'll pass the time recounting the halcyon days when airliners actually HAD pilots siting at the very front of them.
The clock's ticking folks!
[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]
[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]
The seniority system is absurd.
The only viable determinant of pay and conditions is productivity. This is underscored by the one vital point that constantly seems to escape your attention. AN AIRLINE NEEDS TO BE PROFITABLE.
For those bewildered souls who still maintain that pilot's pay is a negligible part of overall operating costs to an airline, take American Airlines as a moderate example.
Q1 this year, labour costs up US$129m. This corresponds to 61% of the profit made in Q1 the preceding year, and a determining factor behind AA's plumet into loss this year....and that was BEFORE 911!
I believe the route cause of the problem is UAL and its ridiculous increases in pilots pay. A short term expedient engineered by Jim Goodwin that has cost him his job, and made all the greedy pilots of Star Alliance sit up and expect the same.
When UAL is now haemoraging US$20 million every single day, how do we visionary professional pilots respond? ASAP-Association of Star Alliance Pilots. Their committed goal? Raising every alliance cockpit organisation to the same lunatic level, and have even set about comparing notes on pay and conditions and negotiating tactics, in this, the worst operating climate in the history of the aviation industry.
Moreover, every time we cockpit primadonas snarl that we're overworked and underpaid, and yet cling limpet-like to obstructionist seniority lists, all of our fellow airport employees, the fuelers, the baggage handlers, the check-in staff, start to feel exploited and become surly. And, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, surly is NOT GOOD in a service industry!
Have a look at the particularly unedifying BA layoff thread and see how the world's favourite airline STILL views its seniorty list as a way for senior captains to score 3 or 4 high revenue flights per month, and woe-betide you if you stand in the way of that cosy little earner.
If you want to earn megabuks chaps, THEN YOU SHOULD BLOODY WELL WORK FOR THEM. Seniority is a stick to beat airlines and junior colleagues with, and of ensuring restrictive and protectionist trade practices endure ad nauseum....nothing more: nothing less.
SENIORITY LISTS MUST GO.
And so, the contagion of appalling American labour relations has spread accross the globe and infected, among others, Lufthansa, Cathay, Iberia, (don't get me started on Sabena) just at a time when we are fighting for our very survival. Air Transport is as vital to most economies as the railway was a century ago...its time for us to display the leadership expected of such an important profession.
Sure its reasonable to expect an excellent package in return for productivity....whats wrong with a fair day's pay for a fair day's work? Its decent and honest and will, in a post-seniority world, reflect our special status in terms of training, risks to tenure from loss of licence, professionalism(!), responsibility, and so on. The best thing of all, is that it will provide for a truly free market within our pilot corps whereby those prepared to contribute most robustly to the profit of those who employ us, will reap the biggest rewards. No reward, no pilots, because we will all be elsewhere earning a ****load of dosh.
I, like the rest of the reasonable world, realise exactly why you spit your dummies with such blue-faced hystrionics, raas767, Cisco, Hooking, MIKEYBOY, Bu..ship, and the rest. For the first time in a long time, your non-sensical, offensive, padded and protected Fiefdoms are under threat, and its about bloody time.
Fellow airline pilot:
We face a crossroads in our prefessional lives. With airlines teetering on the brink, its time to revisit what we can reasonably expect from our careers. With electonics engineers steering us rapidly toward the day where we can easily be replaced by a systems manager and his pet dog, don't you think its time to do away with failed, immoral, Marxist, anti-competitive, obstructionist nonsense like unions and seniority lists?
Better decide soon, or when you DO finally know the joy of Grandchildren, Cisco, you'll pass the time recounting the halcyon days when airliners actually HAD pilots siting at the very front of them.
The clock's ticking folks!
[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]
[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]
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Sorry YY no grandchildren yet,your ignorance is only exceeded by your rudeness.As for seniority lists they are important,productivity more so.. .no reason why one cannot have both ,a fair days pay for a fair days work quite so; but what is fair?..your forelock tugging is a bit wearing..you may well have a future outside of a cockpit, have you considered it?. Actually pilots costs are still rather irrelevant within Limits; when one considers UAL is losing 2o mil US$ a day i.e in 6.5 days the extra labour costs at A.A (your figures).losses are losses and in some cases you could work for free(I think you just might) & it just wouldnīt help.Iīm all for change & when African airports have serviceable Nav Aids & infrastructure & of course no CBīs I will gladly let an armchair operator steer me to my destination & landing but that might be a while off yet.
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Cisco, my dear chap:
I mean you neither rudeness NOR disrespect! However, like my fellow Rosicrucians, although I disagree with what you say, I will defend your right to say it until my death.
YakYak.
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]
I mean you neither rudeness NOR disrespect! However, like my fellow Rosicrucians, although I disagree with what you say, I will defend your right to say it until my death.
YakYak.
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]
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Yak Yak.
That was quite a long winded reply on seniority were you accomplished to say absolutely nothing. Since I am more familiar with U.S. aviation,I will use examples from here. Let me give you a little history lesson.
Pilot pay and benefits have NEVER caused an airline to fail, or lose money. In 1999 American Airlines netted a billion dollar profit with senior captains earning 240 000 dollars a year. A TWA 767 captain at that time was making about 140 000 dollars a year and his airline was the only one to lose money that year. Even US Airways made money in 1999. Pilot pay did not break PanAm, Eastern, Brannif, Midway or anybody ellse. UAL lost money this year (besides 911) because they lacked leadership. Goodwin was to busy trying to sell his merger with US airways than he was managing his own airline.
We are sort of getting off the overall subject of this forum, but you seem to be a highly opinionated person and I would challenge you to read a few books on the history of your profession and about the people who made your job what it is today.
"Hard Landings" is one "Flying the Line" is another.
That was quite a long winded reply on seniority were you accomplished to say absolutely nothing. Since I am more familiar with U.S. aviation,I will use examples from here. Let me give you a little history lesson.
Pilot pay and benefits have NEVER caused an airline to fail, or lose money. In 1999 American Airlines netted a billion dollar profit with senior captains earning 240 000 dollars a year. A TWA 767 captain at that time was making about 140 000 dollars a year and his airline was the only one to lose money that year. Even US Airways made money in 1999. Pilot pay did not break PanAm, Eastern, Brannif, Midway or anybody ellse. UAL lost money this year (besides 911) because they lacked leadership. Goodwin was to busy trying to sell his merger with US airways than he was managing his own airline.
We are sort of getting off the overall subject of this forum, but you seem to be a highly opinionated person and I would challenge you to read a few books on the history of your profession and about the people who made your job what it is today.
"Hard Landings" is one "Flying the Line" is another.
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raas767,
In addition to your spectacular reading list for the under-achiever, why not add the big one, Das Capitaal?
My dear young friend,
Lets not make this personal....too much depends upon the outcome.
Have a nice day!
YY
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]
In addition to your spectacular reading list for the under-achiever, why not add the big one, Das Capitaal?
My dear young friend,
Lets not make this personal....too much depends upon the outcome.
Have a nice day!
YY
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]
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YakYak is spot on. The insane pay levels awarded to pilots at UAL, AA and Delta have contributed greatly to their current economic situation - leaving aside 9/11, anyone with the slightest abount of intelligence could see that we were entering a recession. So what do the unions do? Demand 30-40% pay increases!
Such brilliance. Such intelligence. Such forward thinking!
As a result, Delta's bottom line costs have been loaded by more than half a billion dollars a year. That's more than the cumulative profits it made in the past decade!
Any union dinosaurs that think that they can strike and demand ever increasing pay for ever reducing amounts of work will need to think again because those days are over, my friends!
Pilots hold themselves out as professionals but the reality is that without the unions they would be earning a fraction of what they are. Their actions - through the use of militant unions - are far from professional.
The reality of piloting in the 21st century will include:
1) No scope agreements.
2) No seniority system.
3) Higher productivity.
4) More realistic (ie much lower) salaries for the higher earners.
A captain cannot justify a higher salary than a senior manager; and a first officer cannot justify a higher salary than a junior manager. That's economic life - wake up and smell that java, people!!
Such brilliance. Such intelligence. Such forward thinking!
As a result, Delta's bottom line costs have been loaded by more than half a billion dollars a year. That's more than the cumulative profits it made in the past decade!
Any union dinosaurs that think that they can strike and demand ever increasing pay for ever reducing amounts of work will need to think again because those days are over, my friends!
Pilots hold themselves out as professionals but the reality is that without the unions they would be earning a fraction of what they are. Their actions - through the use of militant unions - are far from professional.
The reality of piloting in the 21st century will include:
1) No scope agreements.
2) No seniority system.
3) Higher productivity.
4) More realistic (ie much lower) salaries for the higher earners.
A captain cannot justify a higher salary than a senior manager; and a first officer cannot justify a higher salary than a junior manager. That's economic life - wake up and smell that java, people!!
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Guv, Yak
I remember when all the so called experts made all kinds of wild predictions for the industry right after deregulation. My favorite has to be "the dinosours with their high cost structure and entrenched union workforce will be forced to the wayside by new lean lowcost competitors", or sommething to that effect. The big players will still be here in twenty years, scope clauses will prevail in some form, salaries will still be respectable, seniority will always be a part of this job, and the sun will still rise in the east. If I'm wrong I'll buy you all a beer.
I remember when all the so called experts made all kinds of wild predictions for the industry right after deregulation. My favorite has to be "the dinosours with their high cost structure and entrenched union workforce will be forced to the wayside by new lean lowcost competitors", or sommething to that effect. The big players will still be here in twenty years, scope clauses will prevail in some form, salaries will still be respectable, seniority will always be a part of this job, and the sun will still rise in the east. If I'm wrong I'll buy you all a beer.
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Yak Yak:
You are talking nonsense as far as getting rid of seniority.
Either that, or ya are envious of the senior guys? Would you like to climb up their back and take their jobs out of order?
Ya a bit selfish and would like to screw the other guy perhaps?
I can only speculate as you make no sense at all.
This old TowerDog have some experience flying for companies with and without a proper seniority system. Needless to say, the vast majority of proffesional pilots prefer and demand seniority. It is the only fair way of doing business from our standpoint.
Not sure which planet you are from, but wish you the best of luck:
Call back when you have grown up and gained some experience, you may see things different then. (If not, you could make a career kissing managment ass, no seniority needed... )
Saab 2000 Driver:
Thanks for thinking of me and the low initial salary here in the US.
raas 767 is indeed doing something about the situation: He has bought me dinner a few times as well as mucho beer.
The Guvnor:
Aye, if ya want good pilots to work for ya, industry wages and a seniority system is a good begining. Much as ya don't like it.
With that being said, it seems that 9/11 created a surplus of pilots and the price will go down as a result.
Many airline/commuter pilots will run off to the local airport shortly looking for a flight instructors job.
(Perhaps even yours truly...There must be a reason I kept my instructor ticket current over the years.. )
You coming back to FLL soon? If so call me and we will go to Durty Harry's and have beer 'n wings. raas 767 will be there too.
Perhaps we can get ya straight on the seniority issue.....
Edited for spelling, or the lack off...
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: TowerDog ]
You are talking nonsense as far as getting rid of seniority.
Either that, or ya are envious of the senior guys? Would you like to climb up their back and take their jobs out of order?
Ya a bit selfish and would like to screw the other guy perhaps?
I can only speculate as you make no sense at all.
This old TowerDog have some experience flying for companies with and without a proper seniority system. Needless to say, the vast majority of proffesional pilots prefer and demand seniority. It is the only fair way of doing business from our standpoint.
Not sure which planet you are from, but wish you the best of luck:
Call back when you have grown up and gained some experience, you may see things different then. (If not, you could make a career kissing managment ass, no seniority needed...
)Saab 2000 Driver:
Thanks for thinking of me and the low initial salary here in the US.
raas 767 is indeed doing something about the situation: He has bought me dinner a few times as well as mucho beer.
The Guvnor:
Aye, if ya want good pilots to work for ya, industry wages and a seniority system is a good begining. Much as ya don't like it.
With that being said, it seems that 9/11 created a surplus of pilots and the price will go down as a result.
Many airline/commuter pilots will run off to the local airport shortly looking for a flight instructors job.
(Perhaps even yours truly...There must be a reason I kept my instructor ticket current over the years..
)You coming back to FLL soon? If so call me and we will go to Durty Harry's and have beer 'n wings. raas 767 will be there too.
Perhaps we can get ya straight on the seniority issue.....
Edited for spelling, or the lack off...
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: TowerDog ]
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Uh, Guvnor utopia is just that:
Not the real thing...
Perhaps ya could get some cheap scabs to fly for ya and have 'em pay for training as well, like ValueJet did.
(If the scabs are happy to screw fellow pilots, just imagine what they would do to managment..)
No my friend, for a good time, have TowerDog and his union-bud,s crew yer jets.
Satisfaction guaranteed.
As for the boat trip in FLL, sure anytime.
If I ain't flying, ya will find me on the water.
(Thanks to the union contract I have guaranteed days off....)
Not the real thing...
Perhaps ya could get some cheap scabs to fly for ya and have 'em pay for training as well, like ValueJet did.
(If the scabs are happy to screw fellow pilots, just imagine what they would do to managment..)
No my friend, for a good time, have TowerDog and his union-bud,s crew yer jets.
Satisfaction guaranteed.
As for the boat trip in FLL, sure anytime.
If I ain't flying, ya will find me on the water.
(Thanks to the union contract I have guaranteed days off....)
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There seems to be an adequate sufficiency of hacked off SR flight and cabin crew in this thread - enough that perhaps someone might be prepared to answer some direct questions about the SR MD-11 and its IFEN system. The info is needed for friends of mine who lost their child in SR111.
If you can assist please email me at [email protected]
If you can assist please email me at [email protected]