Swissair vs. Crossair
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Cisco,
If the thought of small girls with big mouths appeals to you, might I suggest reading some Vladimir Nabokov...Lolita was his creation and something which will, evidently, meet with your approval. While you're busy sating your perverse appetites, others can perhaps concentrate on the job at hand.
Hunter58 and Towerpuppy are exactly the sort of omni-directional creepy-crawlies one expects to find scurrying about when the light is shined upon their union protected fiefdoms, and apart from providing light relief, they have contributed nothing to the debate at hand, that being, that unions are essentially corrupt, cancerous organisations that inevitably lead to the downfall of airlines they infest and a thing which should, in my opinion, be done away with entirely in the new Swiss airline.
Cisco, if you're so enamoured of the American way of doing things, and all the craven blusterings contained within the Delta Furlough's thread, I can only despair for you. Their industrial environment is appalling, and hardly something to be emulated here in Europe. The adversarial relationship between management and union is one of constant paralysis. An excercise in negative energy achieving nothing, except the inevitable prevention of the airline to respond appropriately to market dynamics.
The outcome of this sorry state of affairs can now be seen at UAL, and very shortly, Delta. For all its cash reserves and past glorious history, it is under clear and present threat from belicose union inflexibility. Unless this changes, and signs are not encouraging, Delta will fail, just as surely as United Airlines will.
The move away from expensive large aircraft flown by expensive large pilots is well underway. There are a lot a people with a lot of vested interests, observing what we do here in Switzerland. Rather than import the ludicrous cancer of American style unionism, why not start afresh, and pursue something truly magnificent. Profit sharing, share options, perfermance related bonuses; all these things and more are the inevitable result where unions have been left to go the way of the Berlin Wall, and the KGB.
I imagine that given your past cosy situation, Cisco, that you and those like you will embrace any new order with reluctance. Simply put, I am a pilot who knows that I am better at managing the relationship with my employer than ANY union is. Its more decent, more honest, and much better value for money.
Switzerland now finds itself center-stage in a rapidly changing world airline situation. We have the opportunity to help define how our future success and opportunity is to be determined. Lets not ruin it with a massive backward leap.
[ 10 November 2001: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]
If the thought of small girls with big mouths appeals to you, might I suggest reading some Vladimir Nabokov...Lolita was his creation and something which will, evidently, meet with your approval. While you're busy sating your perverse appetites, others can perhaps concentrate on the job at hand.
Hunter58 and Towerpuppy are exactly the sort of omni-directional creepy-crawlies one expects to find scurrying about when the light is shined upon their union protected fiefdoms, and apart from providing light relief, they have contributed nothing to the debate at hand, that being, that unions are essentially corrupt, cancerous organisations that inevitably lead to the downfall of airlines they infest and a thing which should, in my opinion, be done away with entirely in the new Swiss airline.
Cisco, if you're so enamoured of the American way of doing things, and all the craven blusterings contained within the Delta Furlough's thread, I can only despair for you. Their industrial environment is appalling, and hardly something to be emulated here in Europe. The adversarial relationship between management and union is one of constant paralysis. An excercise in negative energy achieving nothing, except the inevitable prevention of the airline to respond appropriately to market dynamics.
The outcome of this sorry state of affairs can now be seen at UAL, and very shortly, Delta. For all its cash reserves and past glorious history, it is under clear and present threat from belicose union inflexibility. Unless this changes, and signs are not encouraging, Delta will fail, just as surely as United Airlines will.
The move away from expensive large aircraft flown by expensive large pilots is well underway. There are a lot a people with a lot of vested interests, observing what we do here in Switzerland. Rather than import the ludicrous cancer of American style unionism, why not start afresh, and pursue something truly magnificent. Profit sharing, share options, perfermance related bonuses; all these things and more are the inevitable result where unions have been left to go the way of the Berlin Wall, and the KGB.
I imagine that given your past cosy situation, Cisco, that you and those like you will embrace any new order with reluctance. Simply put, I am a pilot who knows that I am better at managing the relationship with my employer than ANY union is. Its more decent, more honest, and much better value for money.
Switzerland now finds itself center-stage in a rapidly changing world airline situation. We have the opportunity to help define how our future success and opportunity is to be determined. Lets not ruin it with a massive backward leap.
[ 10 November 2001: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]
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Hold at Saffa.
I know that your post was not directed at me put I can't keep from posting a response to it, big mouthed women not withstanding. I would agree with you 100 % if we lived in a utopian univerese where management and employees share common goals. They do not. Managements prime considerations is to the share holders of the corporation not the employees. That is capitalism, that's essentially all it is. We as pilots do not have multi million dollar bonuses, stock options and the ability to move from one company to another with no loyalty to anyone of them, and essentially keep the same salary.
We are tied to our airline by virtue of our seniority. No employee group has a greater interest in keeping an airline viable than the pilots. We have very specific skills and if we ever leave the airline or if the airline fails we have to start at the bottom some place ellse. Due to all of this ALPA and all the other U.S. pilot unions do exhaustive economic analysis of the corporation before we exchange contract openers with management. It is NOT in the unions interest to cause the airline to fail, and indeed, no airline has EVER failed because of high union pilot salaries. As a matter of fact pilots are payed much less now at Delta and United than they were in the sixties if you factor in inflation.
As you well know, Swissair did not fail because of high salaried union pilots, they failed because of a failed strategy by management and in the process got a an airline with a book value of about 2 billion in to 10 billion dollars worth of debt. Who pay's the price? Management? No, they are set for life. The share holders and more iimportantly the employees pay the price as Cisco and the rest are all to aware of.
If Delta or United fail it will not be because of high salaries payed to their pilots it will be because of a lack of leadership of their management. Should they fail, however, we all know who has to pay the price.
I sure wish I lived in your universe where everybody sits around the proverbial campfire singing CumbaYa, but I don't and neither does anybody ellse, so I will keep my union, and my high salary because if I give it up it doesn't benefit anyone except management when they pay themselfs year end bonuses.
I think maybe you could learn something from the Americans.
I know that your post was not directed at me put I can't keep from posting a response to it, big mouthed women not withstanding. I would agree with you 100 % if we lived in a utopian univerese where management and employees share common goals. They do not. Managements prime considerations is to the share holders of the corporation not the employees. That is capitalism, that's essentially all it is. We as pilots do not have multi million dollar bonuses, stock options and the ability to move from one company to another with no loyalty to anyone of them, and essentially keep the same salary.
We are tied to our airline by virtue of our seniority. No employee group has a greater interest in keeping an airline viable than the pilots. We have very specific skills and if we ever leave the airline or if the airline fails we have to start at the bottom some place ellse. Due to all of this ALPA and all the other U.S. pilot unions do exhaustive economic analysis of the corporation before we exchange contract openers with management. It is NOT in the unions interest to cause the airline to fail, and indeed, no airline has EVER failed because of high union pilot salaries. As a matter of fact pilots are payed much less now at Delta and United than they were in the sixties if you factor in inflation.
As you well know, Swissair did not fail because of high salaried union pilots, they failed because of a failed strategy by management and in the process got a an airline with a book value of about 2 billion in to 10 billion dollars worth of debt. Who pay's the price? Management? No, they are set for life. The share holders and more iimportantly the employees pay the price as Cisco and the rest are all to aware of.
If Delta or United fail it will not be because of high salaries payed to their pilots it will be because of a lack of leadership of their management. Should they fail, however, we all know who has to pay the price.
I sure wish I lived in your universe where everybody sits around the proverbial campfire singing CumbaYa, but I don't and neither does anybody ellse, so I will keep my union, and my high salary because if I give it up it doesn't benefit anyone except management when they pay themselfs year end bonuses.
I think maybe you could learn something from the Americans.
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YY Itīs you again! I would recognise your style anywhere,"hold at SaFFa indeed",I thought Lolita was an interesting tale,although a little to young for me,areNīt you being a little prudish?,actually the sure sign of a zealot.
O.K Iīll own up; big girls with small mouths are OK as well,is that better!I know,weīll leave all negotiations to you & everything will be fine..get back to me in 5 years you had better get used to shared accomodation because your miserable salary wonīt run to anything else. MS is out.. AD to follow inadequacies are being exposed, will you be next? I hope not,stick around you may learn something...Your perverse pal Cisco.
O.K Iīll own up; big girls with small mouths are OK as well,is that better!I know,weīll leave all negotiations to you & everything will be fine..get back to me in 5 years you had better get used to shared accomodation because your miserable salary wonīt run to anything else. MS is out.. AD to follow inadequacies are being exposed, will you be next? I hope not,stick around you may learn something...Your perverse pal Cisco.
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Raas767
This next-to-last post from you was the most passionate and reasonably stated effort to date! Well done, boy. It even made me pause to think......not for very long, mind you, but pause I did. Of the many points you raise, the one I'd like to take issue with is that management's prime consideration is to shareholders, according to you my dear Raas. I'd like to suggest a tiny modification replacing shareholder with 'stakeholder'. That puts we happy few, equally at centre stage along with shareholders. In an ideal world, pilots would be shareholders also, and not unions as in the sorry and sad case of UAL.
In my universe Raas, we don't sit around the campfire singing CumbaYa (sic), but neither do we guzzle Wild Turkey whilst smoking spliffs and chomp on the hand that feeds us!
Surely there's a happy middle ground, Raas. I stand by my claim that, historically, pilot unions are cancer. If you can suggest a better way than having the Sword of Damocles hanging perpetually over the heads of management, then I'd love to hear it.....Forum, remember? FORUM! Not a YY hatefest.
Cisco,
My dear chap, you continue to astound me! I suggest you give up this new flying nonsence, whatever it is, since you so clearly have an excellent career ahead of you in the CIA, or MI6! Stop making life miserable for your beleagured new employer and put your obvious tallents to good use. Glad you liked Nabokov, and now here's another author of renown I hope you like.
George Bernard Shaw once wrote that every profession is a conspiracy against the leity, and within the context of our recent discussions, Cisco, I suggest your beloved but cankered auld 'snout-in-trough' play group, also known as Aeropers, is the boyband pin-up for exactly this thought.
Pilot unions represent the biggest single threat to the long term viability of exactly the thing they claim to support...JOBS FOR PILOTS. We don't need 'em, we don't want 'em, and if you STILL have any lingering doubts about the virtue of what I write, you need only cast a jaundice eye in the direction of Belgium.
There are very few absolutes in aviation, Cisco, but here are two.
1. Airlines need to make a profit.
2. Unions ultimately destroy airlines.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that these two entities are best kept well apart.
Oh, and on the subject of MS and AD. You are wrong, yet again, I'm afraid. RG (all rise!) has suggested, for rather murky personal reasons if you ask me, that Himself plant his roses. You should know that the LX board has NOT voted in favour of this state of affairs, and is unlikely to. Besides, why change a winning team?
As for AD, the only inadequacy this remarkable young man has displayed thus far, in my opinion, is in not completely and utterly emasculating the farcical and unnecessary Marxist wankfests that currently litter the industrial horizon.
PILOT UNIONS.......BAH...HUMBUG!
[ 11 November 2001: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]
This next-to-last post from you was the most passionate and reasonably stated effort to date! Well done, boy. It even made me pause to think......not for very long, mind you, but pause I did. Of the many points you raise, the one I'd like to take issue with is that management's prime consideration is to shareholders, according to you my dear Raas. I'd like to suggest a tiny modification replacing shareholder with 'stakeholder'. That puts we happy few, equally at centre stage along with shareholders. In an ideal world, pilots would be shareholders also, and not unions as in the sorry and sad case of UAL.
In my universe Raas, we don't sit around the campfire singing CumbaYa (sic), but neither do we guzzle Wild Turkey whilst smoking spliffs and chomp on the hand that feeds us!
Surely there's a happy middle ground, Raas. I stand by my claim that, historically, pilot unions are cancer. If you can suggest a better way than having the Sword of Damocles hanging perpetually over the heads of management, then I'd love to hear it.....Forum, remember? FORUM! Not a YY hatefest.
Cisco,
My dear chap, you continue to astound me! I suggest you give up this new flying nonsence, whatever it is, since you so clearly have an excellent career ahead of you in the CIA, or MI6! Stop making life miserable for your beleagured new employer and put your obvious tallents to good use. Glad you liked Nabokov, and now here's another author of renown I hope you like.
George Bernard Shaw once wrote that every profession is a conspiracy against the leity, and within the context of our recent discussions, Cisco, I suggest your beloved but cankered auld 'snout-in-trough' play group, also known as Aeropers, is the boyband pin-up for exactly this thought.
Pilot unions represent the biggest single threat to the long term viability of exactly the thing they claim to support...JOBS FOR PILOTS. We don't need 'em, we don't want 'em, and if you STILL have any lingering doubts about the virtue of what I write, you need only cast a jaundice eye in the direction of Belgium.
There are very few absolutes in aviation, Cisco, but here are two.
1. Airlines need to make a profit.
2. Unions ultimately destroy airlines.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that these two entities are best kept well apart.
Oh, and on the subject of MS and AD. You are wrong, yet again, I'm afraid. RG (all rise!) has suggested, for rather murky personal reasons if you ask me, that Himself plant his roses. You should know that the LX board has NOT voted in favour of this state of affairs, and is unlikely to. Besides, why change a winning team?
As for AD, the only inadequacy this remarkable young man has displayed thus far, in my opinion, is in not completely and utterly emasculating the farcical and unnecessary Marxist wankfests that currently litter the industrial horizon.
PILOT UNIONS.......BAH...HUMBUG!
[ 11 November 2001: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]
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Define this middle ground you speak of.
We have along history here of giving an inch to management and them takeing a yard, and vice versa also. If you want to get rid of unions then you have to wipe the slate clean and start over again. Remember, when airlines first started flying as airmail carriers in the twentys and thirties pilots formed ALPA because of managements lack of concern for the pilots. They failed to take adequate afety measures and as we all know many of them perished. Many times it is management that brings unions on the property to begin with because they fail to adequately address the concerns of the employees.
We have along history here of giving an inch to management and them takeing a yard, and vice versa also. If you want to get rid of unions then you have to wipe the slate clean and start over again. Remember, when airlines first started flying as airmail carriers in the twentys and thirties pilots formed ALPA because of managements lack of concern for the pilots. They failed to take adequate afety measures and as we all know many of them perished. Many times it is management that brings unions on the property to begin with because they fail to adequately address the concerns of the employees.
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Yakkers, the "Wankfest" sounds like fun!shouldnīt you post it on the Pprune bashes forum,will you be in attendance? Why all gushy over AD?...sorry itīs the MI6 in me.
What does the present LX board of trough guzzlers have to do with the board of a new airline...sounds a bit like union tactics to me ...non? the shareholders,government,& vested business interests will decide and they want a winning team!Parochial,local politics play no part in a successful business venture,MS may get in through the back door but what sort of megalomaniac would want that.Big changes are necessary I agree, but only in the feudal Swiss socio-economic,political cartel system..no progress otherwise Iīm afraid, itīs all far too controlled to survive outside market & entrepreneurial skills.Anyway Iīve found our "debate" to be interesting & Iīm off to burden my new non union employer.All things considered I prefer Raasīs point of view.Yours in perversity Cisco .ps you get what you pay for & LX managers are inexpensive, stand by for a spectacular backfire MS & crew have become a liability Iīm afraid.By the way I donīt particularly support Aeropers,...too innefective.
What does the present LX board of trough guzzlers have to do with the board of a new airline...sounds a bit like union tactics to me ...non? the shareholders,government,& vested business interests will decide and they want a winning team!Parochial,local politics play no part in a successful business venture,MS may get in through the back door but what sort of megalomaniac would want that.Big changes are necessary I agree, but only in the feudal Swiss socio-economic,political cartel system..no progress otherwise Iīm afraid, itīs all far too controlled to survive outside market & entrepreneurial skills.Anyway Iīve found our "debate" to be interesting & Iīm off to burden my new non union employer.All things considered I prefer Raasīs point of view.Yours in perversity Cisco .ps you get what you pay for & LX managers are inexpensive, stand by for a spectacular backfire MS & crew have become a liability Iīm afraid.By the way I donīt particularly support Aeropers,...too innefective.
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TOO INEFFECTIVE?
Good Grief, Cisco!
I'm surprised you haven't contacted the Teamsters! Would you be happy then?.....or better still, go to whole hog American-style and get in touch with Sam Giancana's relatives to complete the picture! Sometimes you're a wicked lad! I wonder if you're purpose is just to be naughty, and to contribute zip? Its been a while since we had a helpful imput from you!
Raas767
I agree with you fully, that in the case of the United States, the environment was such that militant trade unions were an inveviatable consequence of management abuse, but this was, relatively speaking, in the dark ages. The middle ground is this:-
If you remove the appalling threat of utter paralysis and airline collapse from industrial negotiations....and look how things go at the moment. "Shoot for the moon, and settle on something less", scope clauses and all the rest of the nonsense....an airline can truly compete in the market place. Lets not forget that the very reason airlines exist is to provide air transport as demanded by the market. If the market changes, so too must the airline. This is fundamental, and is made fundamentaly impossible where unions are known to object. As has been shown by the Belgian Cockpit Association, unions are prepared to cut their own throats in order to preserve their absurd privillege. Managements and boards of Directors know this, and hire people who are combat managers, rather than airline managers. You get the kind of management you deserve, after all.
Terms and conditions are proposed by management. Their are either accepted or rejected by the workforce. If they are rejected, the pilots takes his flightbag and goes to the competitor who's conditions are more to his likeing. An airline without pilots doesn't get very far, and the market will determine whats on offer.
Unions are the threat to pilot employment. If they hadn't been so intransigent and so militant, more pilots would have found work in the past decade, right across the world. The time has arrived for a more mature relationship with employers. The inverse is equally true.
We pilots can make it happen individually! We don't need corrupt ineffective (hello Cisco) militant cosh-swingers from another era, screwing everything up for all concerned. Lets go for a union free world.
Good Grief, Cisco!
I'm surprised you haven't contacted the Teamsters! Would you be happy then?.....or better still, go to whole hog American-style and get in touch with Sam Giancana's relatives to complete the picture! Sometimes you're a wicked lad! I wonder if you're purpose is just to be naughty, and to contribute zip? Its been a while since we had a helpful imput from you!
Raas767
I agree with you fully, that in the case of the United States, the environment was such that militant trade unions were an inveviatable consequence of management abuse, but this was, relatively speaking, in the dark ages. The middle ground is this:-
If you remove the appalling threat of utter paralysis and airline collapse from industrial negotiations....and look how things go at the moment. "Shoot for the moon, and settle on something less", scope clauses and all the rest of the nonsense....an airline can truly compete in the market place. Lets not forget that the very reason airlines exist is to provide air transport as demanded by the market. If the market changes, so too must the airline. This is fundamental, and is made fundamentaly impossible where unions are known to object. As has been shown by the Belgian Cockpit Association, unions are prepared to cut their own throats in order to preserve their absurd privillege. Managements and boards of Directors know this, and hire people who are combat managers, rather than airline managers. You get the kind of management you deserve, after all.
Terms and conditions are proposed by management. Their are either accepted or rejected by the workforce. If they are rejected, the pilots takes his flightbag and goes to the competitor who's conditions are more to his likeing. An airline without pilots doesn't get very far, and the market will determine whats on offer.
Unions are the threat to pilot employment. If they hadn't been so intransigent and so militant, more pilots would have found work in the past decade, right across the world. The time has arrived for a more mature relationship with employers. The inverse is equally true.
We pilots can make it happen individually! We don't need corrupt ineffective (hello Cisco) militant cosh-swingers from another era, screwing everything up for all concerned. Lets go for a union free world.
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AA is now in talks with Crossair regarding codesharing. This is important since there is always a posibility that flying within an alliance will be farmed out to the carrier with the lowest costs
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I donīt understand all this fuss that US pilots (Raas767 and TowerDog) seem to have over what happens to LX. Itīs nice that youīre so concerned and interested, but to be so extremely opinionated is beyond me.
Out of most of your replies I can gather that there is an obvious lack of understanding. When you compare the US social system with that of Europe you are bound to see some big differences. It might be worth it to invest in an ID90 ticket and take a trip to Europe in order to see things for yourself.
I have lived and worked 2 years in the US (sunny Florida) as a CFI(I) and a lot of my American friends are now flying for a number of airlines/regionals and 135 outfits. When I hear their stories, I can understand Raas767īs and TowerPupīs cries for a union, because people get shafted left and right. Now, Iīm talking about the 99 % of pilots that do NOT fly for a major. Iīm talking about pilots flying without or with bad medical coverage, being forced to fly on off days, being forced to fly unairworthy airplanes, 2 weeks vacation per year, no per diem pay and last but not least bad pay. TowerPup, I really feel sorry for you that you only make rougly $ 25.000,- per year flying an AA 767. Iīm sure the girls at the Diamond Dolls in Pompano Beach are also seriously disappointed.
It is a crime, but I find it very strange that you put so much effort into encouraging the pilots of a regional European airline to insist on more pay. As a first year F/O on a small turbo prop I make more then you do ! Besides that, the cost of living in Switzerland is quite comparable to Florida. Improve the world, but start with yourself !
On a European scale the pay and working conditions right now at Crossair is not as bad as some Aeropers people want you to believe either. Of course there is room for improvement, and if Crossair starts flying bigger equipment then it will be a new ball game, but all in all things are not bad. I know pilots flying for Gulfstream (a Florida based regional) that can NOT afford to live on their own, are driving old cars, making $ 19,-/FLIGHThour…
Then I know some people flying for DAT, flying in Sabena colours under SN call sign, whoīs gross (!) pay is rougly the same as mine. Mind you, they still have to pay Belgian taxes (much higher) and live near Brussels (= expen$ive !). Now that SN has gonne belly up, DAT pilots are talking about taking a 35 % paycut and everybody is speaking words encouragment !
I donīt know why everybody seems to be against LX, while the same goes on EVERYWHERE, sometimes on a much worse scale !
As far as unions are concerned I tend to disagree with Hold at Saffa/Yak Yak.
Unions are a necesary evil in order to get an equilibrium between company intrests and employers intrests. The whole business with Sabena has clearly shown that there has to be a level of modesty, but from a negotiating/strategic point of view a union is needed, especially now in the īnewīCrossair. A union can also be of bennifit to a company, as they have one, clearly designated, partner to negotiate with.
Itīs just the demands that have to be reasonable. Then I hope that Swiss intelligence will prevail over Belgian stupidity !
Out of most of your replies I can gather that there is an obvious lack of understanding. When you compare the US social system with that of Europe you are bound to see some big differences. It might be worth it to invest in an ID90 ticket and take a trip to Europe in order to see things for yourself.
I have lived and worked 2 years in the US (sunny Florida) as a CFI(I) and a lot of my American friends are now flying for a number of airlines/regionals and 135 outfits. When I hear their stories, I can understand Raas767īs and TowerPupīs cries for a union, because people get shafted left and right. Now, Iīm talking about the 99 % of pilots that do NOT fly for a major. Iīm talking about pilots flying without or with bad medical coverage, being forced to fly on off days, being forced to fly unairworthy airplanes, 2 weeks vacation per year, no per diem pay and last but not least bad pay. TowerPup, I really feel sorry for you that you only make rougly $ 25.000,- per year flying an AA 767. Iīm sure the girls at the Diamond Dolls in Pompano Beach are also seriously disappointed.
It is a crime, but I find it very strange that you put so much effort into encouraging the pilots of a regional European airline to insist on more pay. As a first year F/O on a small turbo prop I make more then you do ! Besides that, the cost of living in Switzerland is quite comparable to Florida. Improve the world, but start with yourself !On a European scale the pay and working conditions right now at Crossair is not as bad as some Aeropers people want you to believe either. Of course there is room for improvement, and if Crossair starts flying bigger equipment then it will be a new ball game, but all in all things are not bad. I know pilots flying for Gulfstream (a Florida based regional) that can NOT afford to live on their own, are driving old cars, making $ 19,-/FLIGHThour…
Then I know some people flying for DAT, flying in Sabena colours under SN call sign, whoīs gross (!) pay is rougly the same as mine. Mind you, they still have to pay Belgian taxes (much higher) and live near Brussels (= expen$ive !). Now that SN has gonne belly up, DAT pilots are talking about taking a 35 % paycut and everybody is speaking words encouragment !
I donīt know why everybody seems to be against LX, while the same goes on EVERYWHERE, sometimes on a much worse scale ! As far as unions are concerned I tend to disagree with Hold at Saffa/Yak Yak.
Unions are a necesary evil in order to get an equilibrium between company intrests and employers intrests. The whole business with Sabena has clearly shown that there has to be a level of modesty, but from a negotiating/strategic point of view a union is needed, especially now in the īnewīCrossair. A union can also be of bennifit to a company, as they have one, clearly designated, partner to negotiate with.
Itīs just the demands that have to be reasonable. Then I hope that Swiss intelligence will prevail over Belgian stupidity !
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Aircraft holding at SAFFA, your recleared destination Nairobi, direct ODINA, sqawk 4154 and contact Zürich Control on 134.605!!!
What in the world makes you think that I am a pilot? I am pure management, but the crap that I hear from the long hangar with terasse and the hammering man building is worse that a lot of stuff I heard before. Same goes for Aeropers and Kapers, by the way! But other than others in the business, I am one of teh management types who believe that employee groups need some form of representation. Contrary to my peers, I don't believe I am infailable and it is always good to talk to the ones who finally have to make it work BEFORE you decide upon something.
As Cisco and 76 pointed out, the people who suffer are not the ones responsible for the mysery. And altough your god seems to be MS, there is a huge difference between flying soem regional services in Europe and flying long haul around the world. Why does NO other airline have their commuter services integrated in their main fleet? You think for wage reasons? NO! It's for knowledge in management reasons. But that's to complex to explain here...
Oh, since you are apparently such a stong believer in the LX way, can you explain me why the hammering people want a failed dutchman to turn the things around? This time my taxmoney won't be used, I guarantee you that! Another 2,6 Billions down the drain, we're really approaching the 20!
What in the world makes you think that I am a pilot? I am pure management, but the crap that I hear from the long hangar with terasse and the hammering man building is worse that a lot of stuff I heard before. Same goes for Aeropers and Kapers, by the way! But other than others in the business, I am one of teh management types who believe that employee groups need some form of representation. Contrary to my peers, I don't believe I am infailable and it is always good to talk to the ones who finally have to make it work BEFORE you decide upon something.
As Cisco and 76 pointed out, the people who suffer are not the ones responsible for the mysery. And altough your god seems to be MS, there is a huge difference between flying soem regional services in Europe and flying long haul around the world. Why does NO other airline have their commuter services integrated in their main fleet? You think for wage reasons? NO! It's for knowledge in management reasons. But that's to complex to explain here...
Oh, since you are apparently such a stong believer in the LX way, can you explain me why the hammering people want a failed dutchman to turn the things around? This time my taxmoney won't be used, I guarantee you that! Another 2,6 Billions down the drain, we're really approaching the 20!
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Hunter 58 you are not "pure management" you are merely a failed private pilot.
Oh I forgot ! In todays newspaper "Tages Anzeiger" they are looking for an assistant manager at "Starbucks". May be you can qualify.
Oh I forgot ! In todays newspaper "Tages Anzeiger" they are looking for an assistant manager at "Starbucks". May be you can qualify.
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Well said Hunter talking and LISTENING on both sides is the way forward, sensible demands and a socisal partnership,NOT as Yakkers states quite bluntly "management determines the rates of pay etc." i.e Carte Blanche take it or leave it! is that why perhaps a LX junior F/O earns the same as a supermarket check out person rising after 20+ years service to 2.5 times that amount.....please..
An Intercontinental Airline is a complex beast & needs superior management skills hopefully SR (or whatever) finds the right people.Hey YY. the following young people are "remarkable" in a business sense Bill Gates,Richard Branson,The Artist formerly known as #%$& and others ,but AD? surely you meant "forgettable".I did detect a slight awakening of a sense of humour in your last post,a nice characteristic...keep it up it makes you almost bearable...Your old teamster Buddy Cisco.(Read Germinal. E Zola)I know you like literature...donīt let the past become the future.
An Intercontinental Airline is a complex beast & needs superior management skills hopefully SR (or whatever) finds the right people.Hey YY. the following young people are "remarkable" in a business sense Bill Gates,Richard Branson,The Artist formerly known as #%$& and others ,but AD? surely you meant "forgettable".I did detect a slight awakening of a sense of humour in your last post,a nice characteristic...keep it up it makes you almost bearable...Your old teamster Buddy Cisco.(Read Germinal. E Zola)I know you like literature...donīt let the past become the future.
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Cisco, I am perplexed.
I ran Hunter58 through the universal decoder, and came up empty handed. Long hangar? Terrace? Hammering Man? Its like being in a bad episode of Twin Peaks! How on earth do you glean such things from his post, and moreover, do you think it wise to patronise the insane in this way? Really, Cisco, men of your status have responsibilities, and pandering to the insecurities of the mad doesn't help at all!
As for my young colleague in the vibro-matic, I can only suggest that, as a first year F/O, you haven't been around long enough to know just how evil, how utterly bankrupt of all moral and ethical substance pilot unions are. I suggest you reserve judgement until after you've viewed the dazzling fiesta of bitch-slapping that will surely follow the attempted coitus between CCP and Aerotwirps.
Cisco, your complex beast has become rather simplex, of late. Airlines fail because of their corporate obesity, and it will be the lean, efficient thoroughbread of the skies, like Crossair, that will lead the way into 21st century air transport. As for your three horsemen of the Apocolypse, I prefer to think of them as: The Nerd, The Turd and The Absurd. History has shown that the best airline management leader is non-charismatic, and comes from within. Need I say more?
Aldous Huxley wrote of A Brave New World, Cisco, and that's exactly what I suggest we achieve in CH. Do away with past perceptions, both management of unions and unions of management. Its a win-win situation for all concerned!
I ran Hunter58 through the universal decoder, and came up empty handed. Long hangar? Terrace? Hammering Man? Its like being in a bad episode of Twin Peaks! How on earth do you glean such things from his post, and moreover, do you think it wise to patronise the insane in this way? Really, Cisco, men of your status have responsibilities, and pandering to the insecurities of the mad doesn't help at all!
As for my young colleague in the vibro-matic, I can only suggest that, as a first year F/O, you haven't been around long enough to know just how evil, how utterly bankrupt of all moral and ethical substance pilot unions are. I suggest you reserve judgement until after you've viewed the dazzling fiesta of bitch-slapping that will surely follow the attempted coitus between CCP and Aerotwirps.
Cisco, your complex beast has become rather simplex, of late. Airlines fail because of their corporate obesity, and it will be the lean, efficient thoroughbread of the skies, like Crossair, that will lead the way into 21st century air transport. As for your three horsemen of the Apocolypse, I prefer to think of them as: The Nerd, The Turd and The Absurd. History has shown that the best airline management leader is non-charismatic, and comes from within. Need I say more?
Aldous Huxley wrote of A Brave New World, Cisco, and that's exactly what I suggest we achieve in CH. Do away with past perceptions, both management of unions and unions of management. Its a win-win situation for all concerned!
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Yak Yak:
Still preaching that anti-union stuff?
Just shows how little airline experience you have.
Saab 2000 Driver:
For yer info: The TowerDog never commented on or had opinions about the SwissAir/CrossAir deal.
(Go back and read the thread again when you sober up...)
Also, you may be surprised to learn that both raas767 and TowerDog are born and raised in Northern Europe: We are immigrants to the US and not hard core red-neck union guys that should solve our problems before we stick our nose in your business over there..
(As you suggested)
Cisco:
Agree with all your postings. (There is some common sense in the Alps despite the thin air... )
Still preaching that anti-union stuff?
Just shows how little airline experience you have.
Saab 2000 Driver:
For yer info: The TowerDog never commented on or had opinions about the SwissAir/CrossAir deal.
(Go back and read the thread again when you sober up...)
Also, you may be surprised to learn that both raas767 and TowerDog are born and raised in Northern Europe: We are immigrants to the US and not hard core red-neck union guys that should solve our problems before we stick our nose in your business over there..
(As you suggested)
Cisco:
Agree with all your postings. (There is some common sense in the Alps despite the thin air...
)
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no, not even a PP. When I had the time, I did not have the money, and now I don't have time any more... Time will tell. But i know a lot more abaout airplanes and the companies that make them and make them run than YOU ever will!
Holding at SAFFA! Still in our airspace? Thought I cleared you for NBO, didn't I? And apparently you are not form Switzerland, especially not form the initiated aviation inner circle, otherwise you'd know what I mean. But here's a translation: Long Hangar with Terrasse = Crossair HQ. Hammering Man = the sculpture in front of the UBS HQ downtown Basel, but you apparently never have been there.
Oh, and as you know soooooo much: how come a guy who distinctively failed to make one national carrier profitable (the one on the north sea with three letters and the king in it) should suddenly be able to turn two companies of which one did always profit extremely form the other that failed due to it's management pissing out the money into some other ventures into one functioning airline? I say the odds are at 1:25 by now.
Oh, and here is the tax man again!!!!
And I forgot: Hunter Mk. 58, the one and only true fighter! So elegant, beautiful and dynamic as never any airplane will be. And you did not find anything about it? I believe you're not in aviation at all but a stupid jurno!
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: Hunter58 ]
no, not even a PP. When I had the time, I did not have the money, and now I don't have time any more... Time will tell. But i know a lot more abaout airplanes and the companies that make them and make them run than YOU ever will!
Holding at SAFFA! Still in our airspace? Thought I cleared you for NBO, didn't I? And apparently you are not form Switzerland, especially not form the initiated aviation inner circle, otherwise you'd know what I mean. But here's a translation: Long Hangar with Terrasse = Crossair HQ. Hammering Man = the sculpture in front of the UBS HQ downtown Basel, but you apparently never have been there.
Oh, and as you know soooooo much: how come a guy who distinctively failed to make one national carrier profitable (the one on the north sea with three letters and the king in it) should suddenly be able to turn two companies of which one did always profit extremely form the other that failed due to it's management pissing out the money into some other ventures into one functioning airline? I say the odds are at 1:25 by now.
Oh, and here is the tax man again!!!!
And I forgot: Hunter Mk. 58, the one and only true fighter! So elegant, beautiful and dynamic as never any airplane will be. And you did not find anything about it? I believe you're not in aviation at all but a stupid jurno!
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: Hunter58 ]
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This topic has gotten rather tiresome of late. I do hope, however, that the vast majority of LX pilots do not subscribe to Yak's and Saab's view that we should all sit around and drink koolaid with management and be happy with the few scraps they give us, all in the interest of corporate unity or some such nonesense. I have a feeling that most pilots at LX and SR have a realistic view of what a professional pilots union should be and will act, and vote accordingly when the time comes.
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Just took the pain to read through all 7 pages of this topic and I must say the intelligent remarks could have been condensed on 2.5 pages max.
Just a few remarks from my limited perspective:
- prime concern of an airline is not profit but safety. Anyone who thinks an airline should have the same investment return as, say a software company is definitelly in the wrong line of business. ( Unfortunatelly a lot af beancounters are...)
This is not to say that it has not to be run in an efficient and economic manner...
however it's easy to missmanage an airline and blame it on pilot "productivity" or pay.
Talking about pilot productivity (who invented that anyway?), what do you take as benchmark to define it?
6 landings/daywith 18 hours duty, 7 days a week?
Or flying the a/c in a responsible, safe and economic manner from A to B on any working day, taking sensible decisions when faced with unexpected situations...and being able to do so in a decent working environment with adequate pay and FDR's and well defined company procedures and regs. ?
Would anyone talk about surgeon productivity for example...( or beancounter productivity)?
-where I come from we have integrated our "low cost" carrier into our main carrier with the benefit that every pilot has now decent pay, correct FDR's and a pension plan (albeit there could always be improvement). The company is still making money ...
This would not have been possible without a strong pilot's union.
- I find some of the LX/SR bashing quite childish as well as some of the highly admirative and seemingly uncritical propaganda for LX. Are you guys a sect of some sort or are you on pills? Scary...
Anyway, all the best to all concerned pilots, know your worth without losing sight of the economic realities...
Hear you on the airwaves...
ciao
[ 16 November 2001: Message edited by: propjock ]
Just a few remarks from my limited perspective:
- prime concern of an airline is not profit but safety. Anyone who thinks an airline should have the same investment return as, say a software company is definitelly in the wrong line of business. ( Unfortunatelly a lot af beancounters are...)
This is not to say that it has not to be run in an efficient and economic manner...
however it's easy to missmanage an airline and blame it on pilot "productivity" or pay.
Talking about pilot productivity (who invented that anyway?), what do you take as benchmark to define it?
6 landings/daywith 18 hours duty, 7 days a week?
Or flying the a/c in a responsible, safe and economic manner from A to B on any working day, taking sensible decisions when faced with unexpected situations...and being able to do so in a decent working environment with adequate pay and FDR's and well defined company procedures and regs. ?
Would anyone talk about surgeon productivity for example...( or beancounter productivity)?
-where I come from we have integrated our "low cost" carrier into our main carrier with the benefit that every pilot has now decent pay, correct FDR's and a pension plan (albeit there could always be improvement). The company is still making money ...
This would not have been possible without a strong pilot's union.
- I find some of the LX/SR bashing quite childish as well as some of the highly admirative and seemingly uncritical propaganda for LX. Are you guys a sect of some sort or are you on pills? Scary...
Anyway, all the best to all concerned pilots, know your worth without losing sight of the economic realities...
Hear you on the airwaves...
ciao
[ 16 November 2001: Message edited by: propjock ]
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Let's try to make that 100 replies...
Yes, it is childish what is going on, and it comes from both sides. But what elese do you expect if both have invented air transportation and no-one else ever knew how to do it?
The fact is, LX cannot survive without some very important infrastructure form SR, and the SR people cannot survive without LX giving them a job. So they'll fin each other one of these days. I just hope that the brains the banks bought in from abroad have learned a lot since their last job, otherwise, the company will not survive.
And then there is that taxman again...
Yes, it is childish what is going on, and it comes from both sides. But what elese do you expect if both have invented air transportation and no-one else ever knew how to do it?
The fact is, LX cannot survive without some very important infrastructure form SR, and the SR people cannot survive without LX giving them a job. So they'll fin each other one of these days. I just hope that the brains the banks bought in from abroad have learned a lot since their last job, otherwise, the company will not survive.
And then there is that taxman again...
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Propjock:
To compare an airline pilot with a surgeon is a nonsense, and a completely invalid comparison. Sure we're in the safety AND service business, and failure to acknowledge the latter aspect has led to spectacular downfalls. Productivity is an imutable component of being in business, and it is juvenile to suggest that special preconditions exists for us pilots because our many responsibilities hapen to include safety. No one is advocating a complete aquiesence of professional ambission, but my point has been that these can be pursued in an equitable and reasonable manner by individuals representing themselves, rather than by headkicking industrial gang thuggery who seek to drag companies by the nose in a direction that is, broadly speaking, destructive.
Hunter58's demented babble continues to land wide of the mark. Crossair doesn't NEED a damn thing from the disaster previously known as Swissair. It's only the political reality of so many Swiss unemployed, and the creative and visionary Crossair leadership which has led to an opportunity for so many otherwise unemployable, in an industry where tales of snatching life from the jaws of death are very rare indeed.
Unions are Bunkum!
To compare an airline pilot with a surgeon is a nonsense, and a completely invalid comparison. Sure we're in the safety AND service business, and failure to acknowledge the latter aspect has led to spectacular downfalls. Productivity is an imutable component of being in business, and it is juvenile to suggest that special preconditions exists for us pilots because our many responsibilities hapen to include safety. No one is advocating a complete aquiesence of professional ambission, but my point has been that these can be pursued in an equitable and reasonable manner by individuals representing themselves, rather than by headkicking industrial gang thuggery who seek to drag companies by the nose in a direction that is, broadly speaking, destructive.
Hunter58's demented babble continues to land wide of the mark. Crossair doesn't NEED a damn thing from the disaster previously known as Swissair. It's only the political reality of so many Swiss unemployed, and the creative and visionary Crossair leadership which has led to an opportunity for so many otherwise unemployable, in an industry where tales of snatching life from the jaws of death are very rare indeed.
Unions are Bunkum!