bermudatriangle

I still cannot understand why a prudent individual ,Jim french,would entertain taking on a loss making outfit like BA connect.The aircraft are totally unsuitable to the marketplace,none of the slots are of any value,all could be applied for and granted,the ones that Flybe will be intending to operate long term at least.All the crews will need integrating and re-training,added to the obvious them and us atmosphere which was evident when BA mainline crews flew alongside City Express flight crews,not to mention the several different cabin crew agreements and working practices.I can only assume that BA have guaranteed to undewrite any losses,to at least the level that redundancy payments and base closure costs would ammount to if BA Connect was just to be wound up completely.Surely Flybe would be better filling any gaps in the marketplace,once BA Connect is no longer.

BluffOldSeaDog

True there were problems with the cabin crew integration but the pilots had no real problem mainly because, apart from Manchester and Birmingham (BRAL covered some BA flying there), there was no base where both sets of crew were present and initially very few moved bases until our esteemed management started closing bases round the network

French has already said he's going to get rid of the aircraft but some of the routes such as Frankfurt, CDG and Berlin are mature and have a ready-made market. Think of all those business men's email address' you now have access to - "Dear Sir, why not take advantage of the cheaper fares that the new FlyBE is able to offer you on this route, with it's newly updated aircraft"

It's also not costing him anything to gain access to these markets or crew (thing £1 has been mentioned), so training them is no more expensive than getting a pilot off the street, and we'll all benefit if we get anything close to BACon's scheduling agreement. Before anybody comments - no this wasn't the reason for the company's downfall, inefficient use of the crew was what lead to the high costs related to disruption and day-off payments.

There are going to be some winners and some losers in this merger/takeover, what ever you want to call it, but we've been through this before and both parts of the company benefited from it. To hear some people talk, you'd imagine it was the pilots that lead to the downfall of BACon, well we don't get paid anymore than our competitors!

bermudatriangle

Agree with you Bluff,but take issue with Flybe's cheaper fares statement.Just check out some of the ludicrously cheap deals on BA Connects routes,make Easy and Ryanair look expensive.Flybe are just like the rest,if you need to travel tomorrow,you pay for it !

rhythm method

BOSD, some of what you say is true... there have been some amazing c0ckups with regard to inefficient crewing, which us pilots continually highlighted to our intellectually superior BA managers, but we 'didn't have the bigger picture'!

The rapid decline in BRAL and Brymon fortunes was pretty damn obvious within weeks of the merger.. NONE of the proven regional management teams from either side were given a LEADING role. NOOOOO!!!!!! Instead we had idiotic cretins from mainline parachuted in to have a play with the new trainset.... make up the rules as you go Tim, your mate Alastair will switch the points if you look like ruining that shiny productive line! Oh and the fat controller Dave will back you all the way!

The writing was on the wall from day one... BUT when they said "hey let's see what you can do with this clapped out old steam-train BAR"....

I hope T5 is your biggest downfall WW and that you get strung up by your minuscule cajones for you have shown yourself to be a gutless lying 2-faced tw@t. 2 years to turn it around... how long did you give us... and did we even have a chance with BA mismanagement involved? He even openly admitted to BALPA that we didn't have a chance of making profit without investment... we had inherited the wrong fleet for the job they wanted us to do... but they would NOT invest until we had made a profit! See You Next Tuesday!!!!!!

RED WINGS

Have just heard from a friend that she is flying flybe 21 dec 06 bhx iom with flybe and the tickets state that the flights are operating from T2 at bhx.

Does this mean we are "merging" sooner than we thought or were flybe moving into T2 anyway?? anyone know anything.

brain fade

bermuda

BACX was used to sort out BAR (a crock of expensive ****, hosties included)

BACON was used to sort out BA ground ops in the regions (long overdue FFS!)

Now theres nothing left to sort out, BACON is being closed.

Flybe...............be grateful for BA largesse.....you can sell it.

But remember......... 'What goes 'round comes 'round'

A merger? A buyout? A takeover?




























A GIVEAWAY!

Please, no more ' we're taking you over' ****e.

You 're BEING PAID to take us.

And he who pays the piper............................calls the tune.

remoak

... by a company so desperate to get rid of BACON, they'll pay money to dispose of it - realising, good businessmen that they are, the BACON has little or no value.

How does this enhance their bargaining position? It doesn't, it actually undermines it.

The sad thing about all this is that there is really no equitable solution. If I was in flybe, I'd be very annoyed indeed if anyone from ouside ended up higher up the seniority list than me. If I was BACON, I'd be equally annoyed if I was consigned to the bottom of the pile. However, I suspect that the former is likely to happen.


Now that really is wacky! Anyone from BACON that expects to get onto the 195 fleet is thouroughly self-deluded.

biddedout

Remoak

Quote Now that really is wacky! Anyone from BACON that expects to get onto the 195 fleet is thouroughly self-deluded.



So unless all you 195 ers or wannabes are going to move to the new bases then who exactly is going to crew it. Also, do you really think that they will not be using qualified IRE's etc just to keep you happy?

Most BAaon crew have one the jet round Europe thing so will not be particularly bothered if they are on a capable TP like the 400, (if the pay is sorted) but you are in for something of a shock if you think the "nice" bits will be held aside just for you.

biddedout

[quote=Anodyne;2978567]A number of protagonists on this thread seem to assume that it’s ultimately up to the pilots to decide how the seniority lists are combined, actually it’s the management's final decision.

True Anodyne, it is, it just helps them get around some potentially difficult legal situations if they have TU working with them to produce a Collective Agreement. That way, they are not entirely responsible if someone takes exception to the way in which crew have been ordered. There are all sorts of other laws which come into play and which might trip them up if the company were to integrate the lists unilateraly.

Equal pay for instance.

A company would be very unwise to unwise to merge staff in any way other than continuous service doj or something similar. Likewise, a union would be foolish to suggest anything much different from this however, a Collective Agrement for a simple workable compromise would be acceptable.

This is of course before someone challenges the whole concept of seniority.
Do flybe have much in the way of P+P policies or a comittee to oversee this?

Charlie Pop

Come again? BAR was losing less money than BACX before the merger, and that was even with the huge shovel loads of dosh BACX was getting direct from BAR from the BHX wet-lease deal. How do you think BACX 'sorted out' BAR? The whole organisation hasn't turned a profit in years. It made even less money and lost all the passengers after the merger! Perhaps if you wised up to the fact that you'd backed the wrong horses/aircraft years ago this situation might be more understandable. Point to point regional operations only worked when you had similar competition. Once RYR and EZ moved in the writing was on the wall.

biddedout

I think he/she means "got rid of" BAR. True, both companies were on a hiding to nothing to some extent, but BA gave what was BACX time to re-organise and come up with other ideas based on the fleet we had, but at the same time, pulled the BAR airframes (not that we would have been allowed to fly them) and left us with the BAR staff includind an obscene number of managers / micro managers. They remained with us and added significantly to our losses. Its all difficult to prove as BA were very good at hiding our accounts within their own, but what is clear is that in theory BAR lost just under 20 million in the year before it was wound up as an airline just as 900 or so significantly higher cost base BAR staff joined us. Unfortunately for may, it was cheaper to get rid of the Ex Brymon / Bral staff so all redundancies fell on them whilst the company gradually worked at paying off the bar staff or transferring them back to BA. True, BAcon was probably doomed anyway an WW knew this when he issued his lose lose scenario plan of "make a profit or I will close you down". We might still have failed to make a profit, but we would have had a better chance if we hadn't been saddled with the cost of disposing of BAR and it's mangers.

Nice to know that DE takes away half million++ pounds worth of share options. It comes as no surprise that one of his official roles of recent times was to run Bacon as a testbed for BA.

Watch out LGW.

Sky God

Has anyone noticed that all our BA Connect F/Os seem to be leaving? Perhaps I’ve scared them off!! But seriously, in the past three days I’ve flown with three experienced S/F/Os who are moving on to pastures new. These aren’t staff who are talking about leaving: they have actually found new jobs and handed in their resignations.

We need to be given more definite information from company fairly soon as flight deck are making career decisions based on rumour rather than fact.

stalling attitude

It is not only F/O's Sky God. I have had several phone calls, as have friends at Baby, from old colleagues at BACON. They are Capts and F/O's and they are looking for a way out into Easy or Baby.

remoak

Biddedout

There will be more than enough takers from both the existing jet fleet, and the senior Q400 people who are prepared to move. And just because you have an IRE doesn't guarantee you a plum job either - there are quite a few who have done the core course who haven't been used much yet, not to mention the existing line trainers who can be offered IRE slots.

I realise that you just can't help living in la-la land, where all things are equal and newcomers to flybe - remember, it isn't a merger - get offered all the best bits. The reality is somewhat different, however. As others have said, the BACON crews have precisely no leverage in this situation. Flybe is not short of applicants, and may well prefer to hire people without the tonnage of baggage that some of the BACON people will bring. And if you think that the flybe pilots are just going to roll over and hand you their seniority, well you will be in for something of a shock yourself.

I am sure that the "best bits" WILL be given to flybe people, where they can, and what's left over will go to new joiners (which is what you are).

Sorry to burst your bubble, and all that...

Torycanyon

I don't see ANY of our Q400 IRE's in the 146 or 195 SIMS, let alone the actual aircraft.
They spend most of their lives in Arlanda or Toronto.

I 'd say your bubble was well and truly popped !

Smokie

BMI are looking for 145 crews. God knows why you lot want to come and drive a Trash 8-400.

marlowe

Ok so if Flybe are so good and there business plan and strategy are so strong why did Jim French get involved with the mess that is BACON? IF the Flybe product is so strong and your business strategy so good then why didnt Jimbo laugh in the face of BA when they came knocking on the door? It seems that you dont want our airframes, and you dont want some of our routes so what exactly did Jimbo want ? WELL could it be the assurance that BA are gonna throw a large amount of cash Flybe way? mmmmm thats more like it! now Jimbo doesnt have to expose Flybe to the wolves of the stock exchange as he now has a nice friendly backer called BA!!!!! who he probably thinks will be indebted to him for being a knight in shining armour well Brymon/BRAL/BAR/BACX/BACON we all had that backer as well look where it got us! BA are putting a lot of cash up to ensure this works, Jimbo has already stated that in print BUT if he thinks that BA will give him the cash and not have a say in how its spent then he is deluding himself, might as well call Flybe BACON ! because if BA are behind the scenes tugging on the strings once in a while then Jimbo will dance to there tune.

puddle-jumper2

I really can not believe the attitude of some BAcon pilots on this forum.

You really must ask yourselves what would have happened if this thing was the other way round, would you REALLY have accepted a merger of the lists and some of the 'plumb' jobs going to a group of pilots from a company that's about to go bust !!

When I first started writing on this forum I was quite willing to be as helpful as possible to you guy's and girl's from BAcon, as I have been through something similar and can sympathise with your situation but this aggressive behaviour is beginning to change my attitude towards you.

13 years ago it was BA who were doing the 'buying' with Dan-Air (for £1). I was one of the unfortunate Dan-Air ones who was offered NO job at the bottom of the seniority list and NO redundancy. I got the statutory government redundancy of £200 for every year of employment with Dan-Air.

Think yourselves lucky that 'what goes around comes around' doesn't actually apply in this case.

rhythm method

Puddle-jumper2, I agree that some BACON pilots are posting in an aggressive 'line in the sand' style... but quite often in response to flybe pilots identical mirror-image stance.

It will get them nowhere, other than to serve the purpose of management rule 1 - Divide and Conquer!

A lot of people here need to take a deep breath, step back and THINK before posting. Each pilot workforce has a lot to gain by working as a united community. Flybe T&Cs will be improved considerably by having the weight of the BACON crews on their side. BACON crews will have the chance to work for an employer which actually CAN compete in the marketplace. Jim French knows he needs most, if not all, the BACON pilots as there was already a very real potential for flight cancellations due to lack of crews for the substantial orderbook.

I worry for friends in both camps if you don't work together for the common good. A lot of the antagonists in this 'debate' display nothing more than the 'my daddy's bigger than your daddy' attitude.

For God's sake, EVERYONE start behaving like PROFESSIONAL ADULTS!

Fred Elliot

Marlowe (and somebody else who offered the same bizarre opinion),

In which world exactly is it that you think a 15% stake in any company buys any more than very marginal influence, let alone a 'controlling interest'? OK, i'm no stock market genius but I always thought a controlling interest was 51% or more?

15% buys you the right to sit quietly at the back and behave yourself!

What ever its form eventually becomes, you can be pretty sure that Jim will be running Flybe for some time yet.