BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Me thinks a lot of fishing going on here.
Don't rise to them...
BA are trying a megga David Blaine game and many staff have been caught sleeping.
In fact many staff think the BA are making a good case for change, many staff should show this load of numbers to bank manager who will put them in the bin.
Good Luck to all BA staff...
Don't rise to them...
BA are trying a megga David Blaine game and many staff have been caught sleeping.
In fact many staff think the BA are making a good case for change, many staff should show this load of numbers to bank manager who will put them in the bin.
Good Luck to all BA staff...
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My last post on the subject:
M.Mouse
BA is valued at 334.14p at close today. Not so long ago it was worth above 700p at the top of the last economic cycle.
While we are now at a period of intensely strong market activity, BA is half its previous value. Not only does that suggest less strength by a long way, but analysts agree.
Penelope Butcher of Morgan Stanley values BA at 280p, while Citigroup value at 350 to 400p. While diverging, neither have the value of the late 90s price.
I leave you to ponder what your owners think.
Goodnight all.
M.Mouse
BA is valued at 334.14p at close today. Not so long ago it was worth above 700p at the top of the last economic cycle.
While we are now at a period of intensely strong market activity, BA is half its previous value. Not only does that suggest less strength by a long way, but analysts agree.
Penelope Butcher of Morgan Stanley values BA at 280p, while Citigroup value at 350 to 400p. While diverging, neither have the value of the late 90s price.
I leave you to ponder what your owners think.
Goodnight all.
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Re heat is a Fisherman - don't take his bait..............................its management disingenuity at best:
"lazy pilots, cant read balance sheet, workshy morons, no idea of real world, prima donnas all, massive cuts needed, who needs a pension, DIY, starve in your old age you b*st*rds, get back in that plane, management must be allowed to manage, imbecilic cretins, boredom with a view, my dog could do it, not really a profession, accept massive cuts, only cityboys know meaning of a days work, sat on arse all day doing nothing, childsplay, etc etc etc".
BA is drifting onto the rocks and everyone who knows the facts sees that. Its just a question of time before the implosion, and I dont mean that graciously surrendering our pension promises so that we can live in increasing penury in old age is the way ahead. BA's aim is to be the 'Walmart of the Skies' to its employees. By the time they have finished, working for Ry@anair may even seem attractive! In the meantime, I have never seen such deceit and moral cowardice from the "management team". Guess you hope you are one of the ones still left standing in the ring when the music stops huh, guys? You get rich, we lose our futures! Some deal! Start preparing the plan for meltdown then, we have nothing to lose here - WW's plans for bidline are clear enough intent, let alone the 'Great Pensions Grab'. If the plan is to "out-Ry@n" the Ry@nair clan, we really have nothing to lose at all - watch this space.
"lazy pilots, cant read balance sheet, workshy morons, no idea of real world, prima donnas all, massive cuts needed, who needs a pension, DIY, starve in your old age you b*st*rds, get back in that plane, management must be allowed to manage, imbecilic cretins, boredom with a view, my dog could do it, not really a profession, accept massive cuts, only cityboys know meaning of a days work, sat on arse all day doing nothing, childsplay, etc etc etc".
BA is drifting onto the rocks and everyone who knows the facts sees that. Its just a question of time before the implosion, and I dont mean that graciously surrendering our pension promises so that we can live in increasing penury in old age is the way ahead. BA's aim is to be the 'Walmart of the Skies' to its employees. By the time they have finished, working for Ry@anair may even seem attractive! In the meantime, I have never seen such deceit and moral cowardice from the "management team". Guess you hope you are one of the ones still left standing in the ring when the music stops huh, guys? You get rich, we lose our futures! Some deal! Start preparing the plan for meltdown then, we have nothing to lose here - WW's plans for bidline are clear enough intent, let alone the 'Great Pensions Grab'. If the plan is to "out-Ry@n" the Ry@nair clan, we really have nothing to lose at all - watch this space.
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A bit extreme 'ShortFred' perhaps BA might be more akin to the new 'M&S'. However, we at BA need to be aware of change and that whether we like it or not amounts to a loss of pay and conditions, is that not what is happening to most other companies in the UK?
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This is little Willy. Willy wants to join his friends the Oligarchs, but he hasn’t got enough money. Everyday, he has to flick through the pages of Hello magazine at all the yachts, Bentleys, and private jets, but on his tiny salary from BA he can only afford to pay off the debt of a small African dictatorship.
Willy wants more, and you can help. Please, give whatever you can.
You can give half your pension, £500k, or work just a little bit of overtime, maybe just ten years extra so that Willy and his friends can go and play with their new toys.
So please, send your money to me at:
Fly till you die
Prince of Darkness
Death Star
Compass system
Or you can send a disturbance through the force.
Thank you.
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!
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Do some of you read the posts you are replying to
Just thought I'd re-enter the fray here.
Looking back at my original post I think what I was actually trying to say - in reply to the nice chap from Waterside - was that I AM prepared to fight over the pensions issue. It is important and everyone is going to lose out. To be honest I don't think there could be any doubt of that to anyone who got beyond the first paragraph of my post.
As to the general issue of working hours - I don't recall complaining about working 36 hours - in fact we used to do much longer than that. Rather I was simply stating a fact and comparing it to our 12 hour days which some seem to think are an accident waiting to happen. I disagree.
The flight time limitations laid down by the CAA are, I understand, based on some research into fatigue and so it is right we should limit ourselves to those hours in order to keep the public safe. But BA has lower hours limits (at least on short haul) that are based on nothing more than union negotiated agreement for the general happiness of union members. Now there's nothing wrong with that - if we can get away with working less then that's fine with me. But don't try to turn it into a safety issue when it's nothing more than "working less because we fancy it". And don't tell me BA pilots are an efficient work group when they could improve their productivity by over 10% simply by working up to perfectly safe legal limits.
Still, I'm sure WW has his eyes on us all. If he can see off the IRA cartels that ran Aer Lingus I think he's unlikely to be shaken by some mincing pilots.
Looking back at my original post I think what I was actually trying to say - in reply to the nice chap from Waterside - was that I AM prepared to fight over the pensions issue. It is important and everyone is going to lose out. To be honest I don't think there could be any doubt of that to anyone who got beyond the first paragraph of my post.
As to the general issue of working hours - I don't recall complaining about working 36 hours - in fact we used to do much longer than that. Rather I was simply stating a fact and comparing it to our 12 hour days which some seem to think are an accident waiting to happen. I disagree.
The flight time limitations laid down by the CAA are, I understand, based on some research into fatigue and so it is right we should limit ourselves to those hours in order to keep the public safe. But BA has lower hours limits (at least on short haul) that are based on nothing more than union negotiated agreement for the general happiness of union members. Now there's nothing wrong with that - if we can get away with working less then that's fine with me. But don't try to turn it into a safety issue when it's nothing more than "working less because we fancy it". And don't tell me BA pilots are an efficient work group when they could improve their productivity by over 10% simply by working up to perfectly safe legal limits.
Still, I'm sure WW has his eyes on us all. If he can see off the IRA cartels that ran Aer Lingus I think he's unlikely to be shaken by some mincing pilots.
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Slow descent, I may be wrong but I get the impression you haven't been flying as a professional airline pilot for that long. Couple of years maybe? So you may not have been 'bitten' by fatigue yet. One day it will happen to you, make no mistake. Our days are long and tiring. As you get older, it becomes even harder. And the extra task of being in the left hand seat makes it even more tiring. The FTL's are supposed to be absolute limits, not the norm for every day!
You don't really believe this, do you?
But don't try to turn it into a safety issue when it's nothing more than "working less because we fancy it". And don't tell me BA pilots are an efficient work group when they could improve their productivity by over 10% simply by working up to perfectly safe legal limits.
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Oh dear, you really are very new to BA Slow Descent, and I suspect new to this flying business too. Let me explain some things to you. The CAAs CAP371 limits are not based on some research into fatigue, they are based on years of research into fatigue, research which is still ongoing and is some if the most thorough in the field. When the bidline rules limits were thrashed out in the good old days when BA gave a toss about something other than the bottom line, BA recognised that CAP371 was a maximum, not a target. As such the BLR duty limits were set to what BA recognised to be a safer limit, not an easier limit. Short haul BLR limit are rarely more than 30 minutes shorter than scheme limits.
The point you have wholly failed to grasp, and the reason for my belief that you work at LGW, is that you cannot achieve the sort of hours Ryanair pilots get at LHR. Ryanair pilots spend the day on the aircraft, 25 minutes on the ground at each destination, they do 5 or 6 sectors then they go home. That is not possible at LHR. BA cannot reliably achieve even a 45 minute turnaround at LHR. Delays and disruption on the ground are rife. Aircraft changes are commonplace. Try looking at the ration of duty hours to flying hours in BA shorthaul. You'll find that 820 flying hours you'll be logging about 1500 duty hours. To achieve a 10% increase you are looking at least another 150 duty hours, probablyh more due to the inefficiency of short sector days. It is painfully simplistic to say "Oh they could just fly 10% more hours" and completely ignores the fact that people would start to run into all sorts of CAP371 duty limitations.
The point you have wholly failed to grasp, and the reason for my belief that you work at LGW, is that you cannot achieve the sort of hours Ryanair pilots get at LHR. Ryanair pilots spend the day on the aircraft, 25 minutes on the ground at each destination, they do 5 or 6 sectors then they go home. That is not possible at LHR. BA cannot reliably achieve even a 45 minute turnaround at LHR. Delays and disruption on the ground are rife. Aircraft changes are commonplace. Try looking at the ration of duty hours to flying hours in BA shorthaul. You'll find that 820 flying hours you'll be logging about 1500 duty hours. To achieve a 10% increase you are looking at least another 150 duty hours, probablyh more due to the inefficiency of short sector days. It is painfully simplistic to say "Oh they could just fly 10% more hours" and completely ignores the fact that people would start to run into all sorts of CAP371 duty limitations.
Controversial, moi?
SD
Try doing some research on fatigue and flight/rest patterns. There is enough of it out there, in fact I took part in one university study.
The existing rules were written a long time ago when things were very different. All the recent valid and relevant research is almost totally ignored by the CAA and by companies as well. Not to mention the attempts by the EU to 'harmonise' FTLs, for harmonise read lowest common denominator.
Your comment about the IRA cartels makes you look stupid as well as ill informed.
Try doing some research on fatigue and flight/rest patterns. There is enough of it out there, in fact I took part in one university study.
The existing rules were written a long time ago when things were very different. All the recent valid and relevant research is almost totally ignored by the CAA and by companies as well. Not to mention the attempts by the EU to 'harmonise' FTLs, for harmonise read lowest common denominator.
Your comment about the IRA cartels makes you look stupid as well as ill informed.
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RZW30
Spoke to friend who works at Waterside, she tells me that she works 37.5 hours per week as per her contract.
One day out of her monday to friday work pattern she is not allowed to park at waterside due too many cars at waterside.
She has the option of parking remoat and gettin a bus to waterside, which as you state, takes about 25mins or so at the start and finnish of said day.
However she takes option number 2, on the one day a week when she not allowed to park at waterside, she works from home.
She tells me, some staff she works with do much more that 37.5 hours per week, many of them get stressed out, and those extra hours are a waste of time for all, infact cause more problems at work due to lack of focus.
I suggest you do the same as my mate.???
Spoke to friend who works at Waterside, she tells me that she works 37.5 hours per week as per her contract.
One day out of her monday to friday work pattern she is not allowed to park at waterside due too many cars at waterside.
She has the option of parking remoat and gettin a bus to waterside, which as you state, takes about 25mins or so at the start and finnish of said day.
However she takes option number 2, on the one day a week when she not allowed to park at waterside, she works from home.
She tells me, some staff she works with do much more that 37.5 hours per week, many of them get stressed out, and those extra hours are a waste of time for all, infact cause more problems at work due to lack of focus.
I suggest you do the same as my mate.???
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It is interesting indeed to see the effects of BA 'avarice' bouncing back onto the pilots. Apart from trying to 'frighten the horses' they obviously seek sympathy from others here over the prospective loss of a bit of pension.
They do not have mine, nor, I suspect that of a lot of pilots who were the victims of previous 'avarice' and lost a lot more than a bit of pension. In fact they need, probably, at least another 20 years before the last living Laker/DanAir pilot has taken the high-speed turn-off and parked at the great terminal in the sky before they MIGHT achieve full sympathy. The greed of the management and the selfishness of the pilots through their 'London Protection Agency' caused great hardship to many, including loss of health, houses and partners. Add in the newbies without the pension 'comfort' who would probably not 'join in' any action. So, boys and girls, you reap what you sow.
For Danny, whilst I appreciate it is probably unwise to link morality to anything in aviation - and I see the commercial value in having a hot topic on the front page, I question whether allowing such blatant use of this public forum to threaten BA with industrial doom and destruction is correct?
They do not have mine, nor, I suspect that of a lot of pilots who were the victims of previous 'avarice' and lost a lot more than a bit of pension. In fact they need, probably, at least another 20 years before the last living Laker/DanAir pilot has taken the high-speed turn-off and parked at the great terminal in the sky before they MIGHT achieve full sympathy. The greed of the management and the selfishness of the pilots through their 'London Protection Agency' caused great hardship to many, including loss of health, houses and partners. Add in the newbies without the pension 'comfort' who would probably not 'join in' any action. So, boys and girls, you reap what you sow.
For Danny, whilst I appreciate it is probably unwise to link morality to anything in aviation - and I see the commercial value in having a hot topic on the front page, I question whether allowing such blatant use of this public forum to threaten BA with industrial doom and destruction is correct?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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... they obviously seek sympathy from others ...
As far as your plea to Danny to get rid of this thread, it seems like you're attempting to stifle the debate. Are you sure you're not BA management, as this has been their tactic from the moment they realised that BALPA's accountants and actuaries were onto something when they proved BA could afford to pay.
I think you'll find its a promise not a threat,PPRuNe Person
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Oy. Flt Lt Mitty. I started this thread to draw attention to the befairba.org website. So if you don't mind, we'll continue to do so
HOW DARE YOU! I repeat the reason for the thread - visit befairba.org
I don't give 2 hoots for your opinions, Mitty, I just want to preserve my pension.
they obviously seek sympathy from others here over the prospective loss of a bit of pension.
I don't give 2 hoots for your opinions, Mitty, I just want to preserve my pension.
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Flt Lt Walter Mitty - are you implying that, because I was a member of BA flightcrew in 1996 I am responsible for the disgusting way the Danair takeover was handled by my employer at the time, BA? Are you implying that Freddie Laker's loan arrangements that caused the receivers to be called-in are the direct responsibility of BA line pilots at the time? Do you realise that BALPA would have been shut down under secondary strike action legislation had it organised a strike by BA flightcrew in support of Danair pilots, however much this may have been warranted? Of course you know this.
What you are saying is completely unacceptable, ungrounded in any fact, peddles ruinous hatred and yet seems so eeriely reminiscent of the way BA flight Ops managers respond to any factually-based challenge to their corporate view of the world - raise the emotional temperature with wild allegations and linkages to emotive subjects that are not related to the point at hand and blame BA pilots for everything under the sun. And none of us need or want your sympathy either, mate.
WW has made his agenda clear in his response to the unions rejection of the BA pension "proposal". He has stated that BA seek a cost base at or lower than the lowest the industry can offer as the benchmark. I very much doubt that he will be able to run an airline that functions in the way BA does whilst paying a remuneration package that is equal to or less than the lowest the industry offers, and he is about to find out that this is so.
No more fatuous remarks about City professionals either needed: why compare an apple to a tomato? I dont get an annual bonus that can double or more my salary, unlike BA flight ops managers on rock-solid pensions who will get 250% if they STEAL my future, or certain city types. Nor am I paid what is in effect a compound salary as many city types are, where the burn-out factor is recognised by paying a wage that reflects shorter working lives, such that some City boys n' girls can retire after ten good years - not so in the airline world.
Pay our pensions BA - this isn't Rentokil, where the boss called unionised staff "vermin", and if you think it is - you will reap what you sow indeed.
What you are saying is completely unacceptable, ungrounded in any fact, peddles ruinous hatred and yet seems so eeriely reminiscent of the way BA flight Ops managers respond to any factually-based challenge to their corporate view of the world - raise the emotional temperature with wild allegations and linkages to emotive subjects that are not related to the point at hand and blame BA pilots for everything under the sun. And none of us need or want your sympathy either, mate.
WW has made his agenda clear in his response to the unions rejection of the BA pension "proposal". He has stated that BA seek a cost base at or lower than the lowest the industry can offer as the benchmark. I very much doubt that he will be able to run an airline that functions in the way BA does whilst paying a remuneration package that is equal to or less than the lowest the industry offers, and he is about to find out that this is so.
No more fatuous remarks about City professionals either needed: why compare an apple to a tomato? I dont get an annual bonus that can double or more my salary, unlike BA flight ops managers on rock-solid pensions who will get 250% if they STEAL my future, or certain city types. Nor am I paid what is in effect a compound salary as many city types are, where the burn-out factor is recognised by paying a wage that reflects shorter working lives, such that some City boys n' girls can retire after ten good years - not so in the airline world.
Pay our pensions BA - this isn't Rentokil, where the boss called unionised staff "vermin", and if you think it is - you will reap what you sow indeed.
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It is interesting indeed to see the effects of BA 'avarice' bouncing back onto the pilots. Apart from trying to 'frighten the horses' they obviously seek sympathy from others here over the prospective loss of a bit of pension.
They do not have mine, nor, I suspect that of a lot of pilots who were the victims of previous 'avarice' and lost a lot more than a bit of pension. In fact they need, probably, at least another 20 years before the last living Laker/DanAir pilot has taken the high-speed turn-off and parked at the great terminal in the sky before they MIGHT achieve full sympathy. The greed of the management and the selfishness of the pilots through their 'London Protection Agency' caused great hardship to many, including loss of health, houses and partners. Add in the newbies without the pension 'comfort' who would probably not 'join in' any action. So, boys and girls, you reap what you sow.
For Danny, whilst I appreciate it is probably unwise to link morality to anything in aviation - and I see the commercial value in having a hot topic on the front page, I question whether allowing such blatant use of this public forum to threaten BA with industrial doom and destruction is correct?
They do not have mine, nor, I suspect that of a lot of pilots who were the victims of previous 'avarice' and lost a lot more than a bit of pension. In fact they need, probably, at least another 20 years before the last living Laker/DanAir pilot has taken the high-speed turn-off and parked at the great terminal in the sky before they MIGHT achieve full sympathy. The greed of the management and the selfishness of the pilots through their 'London Protection Agency' caused great hardship to many, including loss of health, houses and partners. Add in the newbies without the pension 'comfort' who would probably not 'join in' any action. So, boys and girls, you reap what you sow.
For Danny, whilst I appreciate it is probably unwise to link morality to anything in aviation - and I see the commercial value in having a hot topic on the front page, I question whether allowing such blatant use of this public forum to threaten BA with industrial doom and destruction is correct?
If other folks out there think that I will idly stand by and watch BA take 42% of my pension (deferred pay) then they are in for a shock. I am not militant. I have a vested interest in seeing BA prosper. But I will fight this with the utmost vigour. Theft in all but name.
WW needs us more than we need him.
Also, comparing our job with any other is all well and good, but, like the deficit being the biggest of any FTSE100 company versus MktCap, utterly meaningless.
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i see the summer is round the corner in uk there is a hosepipe ban in the south east but something is missing to make this a proper summer .ah yes i remember it is not summer if ba staff dont go on strike 
thank god for ba we will have a good summer in uk
thank god for ba we will have a good summer in uk
PPRuNe Person
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sikeano
I think you'll find that Easyjet cabin crew are the ones who are talking about striking...
btw please look at befairba.org
Then you might avoid facetious comparisons with hosepipe bans
I think you'll find that Easyjet cabin crew are the ones who are talking about striking...
btw please look at befairba.org
Then you might avoid facetious comparisons with hosepipe bans
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cheers overstress for that link to be fairba i found this intresting in it
quote :
Pilots are sticking together, young and old, trainees and experienced commanders, to ensure that everyone’s pension is acceptable. We are committed to inter-generational solidarity
what the f
do they mean by inter generational solidarity
i dont think anyone will miss if easyjet cabin crew went on a strike i dont fly with them as a slf
so back to my roses now i suppose and the hose pipe
quote :
Pilots are sticking together, young and old, trainees and experienced commanders, to ensure that everyone’s pension is acceptable. We are committed to inter-generational solidarity
what the f
do they mean by inter generational solidarity i dont think anyone will miss if easyjet cabin crew went on a strike i dont fly with them as a slf
so back to my roses now i suppose and the hose pipe