BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
Controversial, moi?
Was that the Sabena which had virtually never made a profit?
Your company obviously was not that short of pilots to be able to wait the circa 18 months from start to being fully qualified.
I will take my chances thanks. The line in the sand is drawn as far as I am concerned and I am far from militant, gung-ho or keen on the idea but, take my word, I have had enough of the grabbing incompetents who seem to continually treat me and my colleagues with utter contempt.
Your company obviously was not that short of pilots to be able to wait the circa 18 months from start to being fully qualified.
I will take my chances thanks. The line in the sand is drawn as far as I am concerned and I am far from militant, gung-ho or keen on the idea but, take my word, I have had enough of the grabbing incompetents who seem to continually treat me and my colleagues with utter contempt.
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Originally Posted by sugden
Beaver Eager, if you think this is EXACTLY about WW getting a fat bonus at your expense your so far off beam it's not true. All the big public companies are closing and re-basing their pensions.
Originally Posted by sugden
Human Factor, as I understand it, they can't afford to pay the pensions. That is what the deficit is all about; the assets in the fund will not meet the liabilities.
Originally Posted by sugden
I am strongly of the view that a BA collapse will have serious repercussions for BA pilots, Blah, Blah, Blah, etc.
Originally Posted by sugden
Why do I care? I don't, really. I am not BA.
Originally Posted by sugden
I do have sympathy for the situation you are in.
Originally Posted by sugden
If you want to minimise your loses, however, the barricades approach ain't gonna work.
All the best to you though sugden - nothing personal, BE.
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HAND
We DO need new aircraft!
The 737 fleet at LGW needs replacing NOW.
The best one we have makes the old Bcal buses look like a new BMWs.
It will also stop North Terminal becoming orange, and will keep the low cost wolves knocking on EFLHR's door.
I know it's easy to forget about us down here at LGW, but we do have a part to play.
4) The 'we need new aircraft' mantra doesn't wash. We don't need new aircraft. Even the oldest 747s aren't due for replacement for another 5 years.
The 737 fleet at LGW needs replacing NOW.
The best one we have makes the old Bcal buses look like a new BMWs.
It will also stop North Terminal becoming orange, and will keep the low cost wolves knocking on EFLHR's door.
I know it's easy to forget about us down here at LGW, but we do have a part to play.
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Are you volunteering to pay for them with your pension? I once volunteered to buy a new Airbus fleet for BHX and MAN with my pay. They took my pay then didn't buy the Airbus for MAN. Then they closed both bases and pocketed the cash. They sent the 737-500s we paid for to LGW.
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Hand Solo - SPOT ON! Your post accurately describes what we are dealing with - BA PILOTS CANNOT TRUST A SINGLE WORD THE COMPANY SAY. They have lied before (Manch and Birm) and did not even look contrite.
The opportunity to cheat the pilots out of their financial futures must seem irresistable to 'The Lord Protector', 'The Prince of Darkness' and the big cheese himself, 'The Leprachaun', pilot-haters to a man. Its not going to work. The line in the sand is there.
The opportunity to cheat the pilots out of their financial futures must seem irresistable to 'The Lord Protector', 'The Prince of Darkness' and the big cheese himself, 'The Leprachaun', pilot-haters to a man. Its not going to work. The line in the sand is there.
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Just read the BA NEWS of 20Apr2006.
Page two, even BA mentions rate of pen pay increase will loose at least 1.5% per year, would expect some very clever pay deals to avr that out at 2% or more over time.
This is just 1 part of the fix. is it 3 or 4 more.....
These are very strong numbers.
Well I guess when the sleeping staff wake up and mention they not very happy about changes that were made, BA can just say "we told you what the changes would mean to you"
BA playing a very cool hand......
Page two, even BA mentions rate of pen pay increase will loose at least 1.5% per year, would expect some very clever pay deals to avr that out at 2% or more over time.
This is just 1 part of the fix. is it 3 or 4 more.....
These are very strong numbers.
Well I guess when the sleeping staff wake up and mention they not very happy about changes that were made, BA can just say "we told you what the changes would mean to you"
BA playing a very cool hand......
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A view from waterside
Well, as a worker in waterside, I expect to have all sorts of criticism heaped onto my head typically by pilots, (unnecessary overhead, wonderful working conditions, normal working hours etc.).
Well for some of us, things are not so rosy.
There has been the constant threst of having to reapply for ones job.
The prospect of over 30% of SMs going, and 20% of middle managers.
This and the actual fact that many staff have actually gone leaving typically the same work to be done by maybe 30% less people.
Over the last few years this has taken its toll.
I for example, work typically from 7am (when I arrive at the rear entrance of Waterside having parked my car 25 minutes away- There is not enough parking space at waterside).
I leave at typically 7pm but it may be later. That's typically around 60 hours, and is not atypical of others in IM.
I do this partly to do the necessary work, and partly to keep my job.
In recent years I can number at least 3 people who have committed suicide (one a General manager) because of this sort of pressure.
I find it very difficult to feel sorry for pilots who simply do not have this sort of life destroying pressure.
They are lucky enough to have the skill and aptitude to do a job which carries a high salary, excellent perks, and a low retirement age with a good pension at the end.
If their retirement age is 60 rather than 55 that still makes them better off than the rest of us.
If they don't like it, they should make provision for earlier retirement themselves out of their (typically over £100k) salaries.
If they really don't like BA maybe they should consider working for Ryanair or easyjet
Well for some of us, things are not so rosy.
There has been the constant threst of having to reapply for ones job.
The prospect of over 30% of SMs going, and 20% of middle managers.
This and the actual fact that many staff have actually gone leaving typically the same work to be done by maybe 30% less people.
Over the last few years this has taken its toll.
I for example, work typically from 7am (when I arrive at the rear entrance of Waterside having parked my car 25 minutes away- There is not enough parking space at waterside).
I leave at typically 7pm but it may be later. That's typically around 60 hours, and is not atypical of others in IM.
I do this partly to do the necessary work, and partly to keep my job.
In recent years I can number at least 3 people who have committed suicide (one a General manager) because of this sort of pressure.
I find it very difficult to feel sorry for pilots who simply do not have this sort of life destroying pressure.
They are lucky enough to have the skill and aptitude to do a job which carries a high salary, excellent perks, and a low retirement age with a good pension at the end.
If their retirement age is 60 rather than 55 that still makes them better off than the rest of us.
If they don't like it, they should make provision for earlier retirement themselves out of their (typically over £100k) salaries.
If they really don't like BA maybe they should consider working for Ryanair or easyjet
Controversial, moi?
While not doubting your hard work and the fact that I amy be paid more than you I fear you are missing the point entirely.
In a nutshell we are being asked to work for an extra 10 years to earn the same if not less pension than was offered in our contracts. That is also going to be heavily reduced for the younger guys by the severely limited increases to the pensionable element of pay in future pay negotiations and for all by the future pension uplifts also being limited.
BA is being at best disingenuous with there hugely misleading pension projection spreadsheet which makes the whole thing look quite reasonable.
You say that perhaps we ought to move to another airline if not happy well unfortunately for pilots seniority does not transfer so the 20 years which I have accrued to reach my present position would be for nothing. Your skills are more easily transferrable and given how hard you seem to work I wonder if you have considered your own advice.
I can well imagine the fear and concern associated with a massive cull within staff ranks but one has to point the finger at the poor management which allowed the numbers to reach the levels and inefficiencies of a government department in the first place.
In a nutshell we are being asked to work for an extra 10 years to earn the same if not less pension than was offered in our contracts. That is also going to be heavily reduced for the younger guys by the severely limited increases to the pensionable element of pay in future pay negotiations and for all by the future pension uplifts also being limited.
BA is being at best disingenuous with there hugely misleading pension projection spreadsheet which makes the whole thing look quite reasonable.
You say that perhaps we ought to move to another airline if not happy well unfortunately for pilots seniority does not transfer so the 20 years which I have accrued to reach my present position would be for nothing. Your skills are more easily transferrable and given how hard you seem to work I wonder if you have considered your own advice.
I can well imagine the fear and concern associated with a massive cull within staff ranks but one has to point the finger at the poor management which allowed the numbers to reach the levels and inefficiencies of a government department in the first place.
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view from Waterside
Rzw30,
It is truly very sad if things are so bad at your end that people are committing suicide. I'm very sorry to hear it and, given that sort of pressure, I can understand a lack of sympathy for the pilot group which, let's face it, has an easy life (I speak as one - flew 800 hours short haul last year and it's still part time, whatever pilots who've never had another job in their lives will tell you).
On the specific issue of the pension I think what is becoming apparent is that all the talk of new aircraft is basically a bit of a smoke screen - or rather a half truth. What NAPS pilots perceive is that they will lose out massively in order that managers can achieve the 10% operating margin and so secure bonuses of around 250%. This is an abhorent equation - it is truly disgusting to find flight ops managers saying "oh yes, of course we'll still get our bonuses while you are 40% worse off in retirement".
Pilots are one of the very few educated work groups in the country able to stand up to that sort of nastiness because they have managed to organise themselves into a unionised workforce.
Moreover, for those of us on BARP, the situation is actually worse - we will be lucky to retire at age 65 on a decent pension which, because of the nature of the NAPS proposals, will be reduced by around a quarter if the changes go through. And with longer times to command etc that will result if the retirement age for NAPS increases, many of us will be looking to move on from BA soon.
It is a sad state of affairs for one of Britain's icons to be managed by such short termist crooks. It is true that there are many inefficiencies to be found in BA and these should be addressed - we could fly 900 hours short haul for instance - but I think attacking the pension is the wrong move and, sadly, there are troubled times ahead if the company doesn't back down.
It is truly very sad if things are so bad at your end that people are committing suicide. I'm very sorry to hear it and, given that sort of pressure, I can understand a lack of sympathy for the pilot group which, let's face it, has an easy life (I speak as one - flew 800 hours short haul last year and it's still part time, whatever pilots who've never had another job in their lives will tell you).
On the specific issue of the pension I think what is becoming apparent is that all the talk of new aircraft is basically a bit of a smoke screen - or rather a half truth. What NAPS pilots perceive is that they will lose out massively in order that managers can achieve the 10% operating margin and so secure bonuses of around 250%. This is an abhorent equation - it is truly disgusting to find flight ops managers saying "oh yes, of course we'll still get our bonuses while you are 40% worse off in retirement".
Pilots are one of the very few educated work groups in the country able to stand up to that sort of nastiness because they have managed to organise themselves into a unionised workforce.
Moreover, for those of us on BARP, the situation is actually worse - we will be lucky to retire at age 65 on a decent pension which, because of the nature of the NAPS proposals, will be reduced by around a quarter if the changes go through. And with longer times to command etc that will result if the retirement age for NAPS increases, many of us will be looking to move on from BA soon.
It is a sad state of affairs for one of Britain's icons to be managed by such short termist crooks. It is true that there are many inefficiencies to be found in BA and these should be addressed - we could fly 900 hours short haul for instance - but I think attacking the pension is the wrong move and, sadly, there are troubled times ahead if the company doesn't back down.
Controversial, moi?
I speak as one - flew 800 hours short haul last year and it's still part time, whatever pilots who've never had another job in their lives will tell you
The excessive hours forced on us all by the low cost airlines will sooner or later result in an accident due to pilot fatigue.
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Originally Posted by rzw30
Well, as a worker in waterside, I expect to have all sorts of criticism heaped onto my head typically by pilots, (unnecessary overhead, wonderful working conditions, normal working hours etc.).
Well for some of us, things are not so rosy.
There has been the constant threst of having to reapply for ones job.
The prospect of over 30% of SMs going, and 20% of middle managers.
Well for some of us, things are not so rosy.
There has been the constant threst of having to reapply for ones job.
The prospect of over 30% of SMs going, and 20% of middle managers.
Originally Posted by rzw30
This and the actual fact that many staff have actually gone leaving typically the same work to be done by maybe 30% less people.
How are your numbers worked out?? A mathematical formulae of by seeing how many people put in ‘desk time’?
We cannot do 30% more work as it is illegal. Just ask any of they guys n girls on the 900hr ‘list‘ (that’s airborne hours, not working hours.. which is typically 2500hrs p.a) The list a to warn pilots that they are very close (within minutes on occasions) of breaking the LEGAL (note industrial) limit of flying. Break that and the it’s a case of BA having its Operators Certificate withdrawn and the pilot have his or her license revoked. So no more 30 % extra for us, as it cant be done legally.
Originally Posted by rzw30
I for example, work typically from 7am (when I arrive at the rear entrance of Waterside having parked my car 25 minutes away- There is not enough parking space at waterside). I leave at typically 7pm but it may be later. That's typically around 60 hours
Oh, and after my 0345 wake up and 0500 check in, I might get the chance to see my bed at around 1800, in a different time zone, in a stuffy hotel room, far away from my family and the needs of my children. And when you do get back to LHR after a 5 day gypsy tour around Europe and finally get to set the park brake and look forward to seeing your own bed, wife and children, there is no bus to take the crew to the car park until 1 hour after shutdown, for the 4th time that month.
Ever heard of Draft Assign (or Force Draft). Ask a pilot next time you speak to one. You will instantly raise there blood pressure by several notches. We are commonly met at the aircrafts side upon arrival and told ‘ you know those next 2 days off you, your now working’
NO argument.
A disciplinary offence if you don’t turn up the next day.
A medieval rule for an archaic medieval company. Family? What family?
Originally Posted by rzw30
I can number at least 3 people who have committed suicide (one a General manager) because of this sort of pressure.
Originally Posted by rzw30
I find it very difficult to feel sorry for pilots who simply do not have this sort of life destroying pressure.
I have worked in several office environments where redundancy has loomed large and can empathise to you situation. Have you every work a Pilot or a Cabin Crew roster for years upon years? Even if you have done so some years ago perhaps - it would not be anything like the pressurized environment that we currently endure.
Anyone who has not operated into and out of LHR of a extremely hectic environment on a permanent, short haul, multi sector day, years on end HAS NO IDEA of the crap we tolerate. Then there is the personal tolerance folks put up with. Away for upto 7 days Shorthaul, 10 days Longhaul, often seeing your children for maybe 1 night in that block, commonly getting home at 2000 and departing to go to work again less than 10 hours later, yes… 0600… Divorce is rampant, children asking who that strange man walking in the front door is….
Life destroying….? Hmmmm. You decide.
Originally Posted by rzw30
They are lucky enough to have the skill and aptitude
Now there’s an interesting word.
Years of hard graft at school.
Then years of hard graft earning the funds to pay fro £50,000 worth of vocational training that Doctors and Lawyers typically get funded for them.
Then a couple of hard years getting that elusive CPL, after having seen many of your friends fall by the wayside never having achieved that little blue book, only the large debt that goes with it.
But that’s the easy part.
Then comes getting that job.
Onto the first rung of the ladder.
Hauling mail around the Hebrides in the middle of a snow storm at low level in an aircraft that should really not be certified to operate in thos conditions, but it is.
Then a turboprop job with some skinflint operator paying around £15,000 for atrocious hours and a £20,000 bond ‘just incase’ you want to jump ship to an airline that doesn’t screw you over at every single opportunity.
Then that opening onto a jet comes good after much badgering and knocking on Chief Pilots doors. Now you might even get one or two of the days off that were meant to be a day off on your roster and start to even pay off your flying course loans which have only been increasing whilst you were living hand to mouth for the past 3 years working for sod all.
And then, maybe - then you might get a shot at the major Airlines.
Lucky. I don’t think so.
Being lucky is something you create individually.
Being unlucky is stepping in a dog turd.
Originally Posted by rzw30
excellent perks, and a low retirement age with a good pension at the end. If their retirement age is 60 rather than 55 that still makes them better off than the rest of us.
I must have been missing them for all these years.
Which retirement age of 60 is that. Yet again something I must have missed…..
Ahhhhhhh…… I know now what you mean now! You believed the companies line of ‘pilots to retire at 60’….!!!!
There is your error.
It is complete and utter fiction.
ICAO has already stated that as from November 06 pilots can work until 65.
Originally Posted by rzw30
If they don't like it, they should make provision for earlier retirement themselves out of their (typically over £100k) salaries.
easyjet
easyjet
Cadet pilots starting on £25,000….???!
Originally Posted by rzw30
If they really don't like BA maybe they should consider working for Ryanair
I don’t want your sympathy rzw30.
None of the 3500 pilots in BA need it thanks.
All I really want is the truth surrounding all this total SPIN from the company.
Strike.??
You can bet you very last Latte from Waitrose on it buddy.
PS What is the web address of the Water Worlders website please? I’m contemplating like to come and poke my nose into your business and tell mis truths too. I wonder how you would like it.???
The key to this website is the first word in the name of it.
Pilot.
Its not the Office Person RUmour NEtwork
Last edited by Big Kahuna Burger; 2nd May 2006 at 14:45.
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You're kidding..? I still think a 12 hour day at BA beats working 36 hours non-stop in the City. I come home breazy and fresh...
If you come home breazy [sic] and fresh after a 12 hour day then you must be getting some easy lines because after a 3/4/3 early morning tour I was anything but.
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I stand corrected
Hand Solo - many apologies. You are quite right - it's "breezy". Sorry.
Rzw30 - bet you're glad you bothered now. Look on the bright side - at least you won't have to sit in a confined space for days on end with these guys.
Rzw30 - bet you're glad you bothered now. Look on the bright side - at least you won't have to sit in a confined space for days on end with these guys.
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SlowDescent,
If you're daft enough to work for this bunch of thieves without being to prepared to protect what you signed up for (albeit what you signed up with BARP is a little different to what I signed up for), then you'll deserve everything you get I'm afraid.
Just think what will happen to the payscales if this goes through? Not sure how old you are but if you ever think you'll get to pay point 24, there's unlikely to be one by that time.
Think about the bigger picture.
If you're daft enough to work for this bunch of thieves without being to prepared to protect what you signed up for (albeit what you signed up with BARP is a little different to what I signed up for), then you'll deserve everything you get I'm afraid.
Just think what will happen to the payscales if this goes through? Not sure how old you are but if you ever think you'll get to pay point 24, there's unlikely to be one by that time.
Think about the bigger picture.
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Rzw,
What's the worst that can happen to you if you make a mistake at work because you're tired?
Now think of the worst thing that can happen to me.
What's the worst that can happen to you if you make a mistake at work because you're tired?
Now think of the worst thing that can happen to me.
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Chaps & Girls,
You are showing a complete lack of appreciation for non-flying jobs, which is doing the PR for your cause no good whatsoever.
rzw30 & BKB:
BA has still many holdovers of inefficiency from state ownership; for example it is well known that there are many more managers at BA than Lufthansa or other comparable airline using any metric you wish. Equally, there will be a lot of pain as efficiencies are gained as people and the company have to learn what is and what is not core business - what can and what cannot be eliminated.
That surely manifests itself most clearly in the awful transport situation (caused I might add by a union), and the terrible forced draft policy (created by poor recruitment and planning - and lack of attractiveness of BARP).
BKB
You might take note that many of your colleagues non-flying also work across time zones and work as many and sometime more hours than the pilot group. It is not really comparable to complain of a 5-day rostered tour of Europe, where non-flying staff may not even have such forecast stability in the work that they are doing, having to react to events and get things done - and that is including forced draft and transport delays.
It would appear to me that rzw30 asked more for a little empathy and solidarity than a retelling of your superiority as a pilot.
2000 to 0600 example is again poor, incomparable to those time performed by many office workers who often do more, and divorce unfortunately is pervasive everywhere. Focus on the issue.
If you had any idea about the contract, it is not a promise and has never been a promise. It is not enforceable in court. I agree - as I have said before - that unilateral cuts are immoral. It is not however illegal and is not included in any way, shape or form as deferred pay in any company accounts. It is a moral obligation that has been made - which upon valuation appears dire thanks to the multiple cockups of this country's government, actuaries and accountants. The year-end's valuation may eliminate all defecit when the markets are better, but it does not detract from the fact that it is the most rubbish defecit of all the FTSE companies.
Get it?
Human Factor
There are no unions in these investment banks and city firms, and these people are no fools. The employers are not theives, but know how to run a business to obtain maximum productivity from their staff and maximum profits. Refusal to work hours required results in instant dismissal. Unions are not recognised and collective bargaining is unheard of. Why is this acceptable? Because there is a real incentivisation to work to progress. There is no seniority based upon years of employment and no annual pay rise. Make it to the top and you will be well rewarded.
That is why they literally print money - every person in those companies is incentivised to work. These people own BA and value your company and keep us all richer through driving the economy. You are not asked to work to their levels nor to sell your soul, but to earn a return on their capital. How many billions do you think Goldman Sachs made this quarter? Take a look at their results - and the amount of capital on which they make that figure, in a MORE competitive environment than that in which BA operate.
This is the reality of capitalism. If you don't like it then buy out BA and change it to a charitable trust!
It is a common misnomer that only safety is of importance in the airline. Of course it is important in a pilot's job, but do you really think you exist in isolation?
I therefore leave it to your imagination as to what happens when the company fails to file the Form 10-K with the SEC on time, where criminal penalties exist and the airline ceases to exist when liquidated by creditors. Feel free to imagine what the aforementioned capitalists will do if you continue to perform as currently.
In conclusion - some people's lack of empathy for their co-workers is appalling, and your PR is dire.
Engage brain before opening mouth (or typing).
You are showing a complete lack of appreciation for non-flying jobs, which is doing the PR for your cause no good whatsoever.
rzw30 & BKB:
BA has still many holdovers of inefficiency from state ownership; for example it is well known that there are many more managers at BA than Lufthansa or other comparable airline using any metric you wish. Equally, there will be a lot of pain as efficiencies are gained as people and the company have to learn what is and what is not core business - what can and what cannot be eliminated.
That surely manifests itself most clearly in the awful transport situation (caused I might add by a union), and the terrible forced draft policy (created by poor recruitment and planning - and lack of attractiveness of BARP).
BKB
You might take note that many of your colleagues non-flying also work across time zones and work as many and sometime more hours than the pilot group. It is not really comparable to complain of a 5-day rostered tour of Europe, where non-flying staff may not even have such forecast stability in the work that they are doing, having to react to events and get things done - and that is including forced draft and transport delays.
It would appear to me that rzw30 asked more for a little empathy and solidarity than a retelling of your superiority as a pilot.
2000 to 0600 example is again poor, incomparable to those time performed by many office workers who often do more, and divorce unfortunately is pervasive everywhere. Focus on the issue.
I am thanks. Several irons in the fire already as it happens. Because I will strike until I get my pension promise which is after all - deferred pay.
Get it?
Human Factor
There are no unions in these investment banks and city firms, and these people are no fools. The employers are not theives, but know how to run a business to obtain maximum productivity from their staff and maximum profits. Refusal to work hours required results in instant dismissal. Unions are not recognised and collective bargaining is unheard of. Why is this acceptable? Because there is a real incentivisation to work to progress. There is no seniority based upon years of employment and no annual pay rise. Make it to the top and you will be well rewarded.
That is why they literally print money - every person in those companies is incentivised to work. These people own BA and value your company and keep us all richer through driving the economy. You are not asked to work to their levels nor to sell your soul, but to earn a return on their capital. How many billions do you think Goldman Sachs made this quarter? Take a look at their results - and the amount of capital on which they make that figure, in a MORE competitive environment than that in which BA operate.
This is the reality of capitalism. If you don't like it then buy out BA and change it to a charitable trust!
What's the worst that can happen to you if you make a mistake at work because you're tired?
I therefore leave it to your imagination as to what happens when the company fails to file the Form 10-K with the SEC on time, where criminal penalties exist and the airline ceases to exist when liquidated by creditors. Feel free to imagine what the aforementioned capitalists will do if you continue to perform as currently.
In conclusion - some people's lack of empathy for their co-workers is appalling, and your PR is dire.
Engage brain before opening mouth (or typing).