BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Thanks for the link, pondlifeman, it just about sums-up the wider state of the industry.
Where it REALLY counts, its "Regulation Lite" all the way, as regulators cease to regulate and merely check the paperwork now and again for a companies own self-regulation system. Of course, the temptation to do and say what the boss wants to hear under such a system would be overwhelming, and the resources the regulator devotes to really checking the independance and accuracy of a companies self-regulation system decline year on year. Hence, perhaps, the decline in support for, and training given to, the LAE.
But thats OK, since there is no doubt that these proposed cabin crew licenses your link refers to will attract a healthy fee.
With purists like the IAA in charge of the oversight of an airline largely based OUTSIDE Ireland, however, and knowing how well-resourced and respected they are, we can expect that, in the words of a well known campaign theme tune, "things can only get better". Or maybe not.
As the "race to the bottom" intensifies in the airline business, pensions evaporate, qualifications are debased, cost-cutting eats right into quality, regulators scramble to be the lightest touch going and management seek ever more outlandish bonus payoffs, (250% anyone? That's BA's benchmark for you all to aspire to), I think we will see a lot more of this kind of crazy thinking and bizarre behaviour.
Stability and safety used to be the core values an airline sought - not much chance of that now. Am I alone in wondering whether the industry is coming to a crossroads where some very hard choices will have to be made as to the way ahead? God forbid that a major incident is the trigger for such a review.
Where it REALLY counts, its "Regulation Lite" all the way, as regulators cease to regulate and merely check the paperwork now and again for a companies own self-regulation system. Of course, the temptation to do and say what the boss wants to hear under such a system would be overwhelming, and the resources the regulator devotes to really checking the independance and accuracy of a companies self-regulation system decline year on year. Hence, perhaps, the decline in support for, and training given to, the LAE.
But thats OK, since there is no doubt that these proposed cabin crew licenses your link refers to will attract a healthy fee.
With purists like the IAA in charge of the oversight of an airline largely based OUTSIDE Ireland, however, and knowing how well-resourced and respected they are, we can expect that, in the words of a well known campaign theme tune, "things can only get better". Or maybe not.
As the "race to the bottom" intensifies in the airline business, pensions evaporate, qualifications are debased, cost-cutting eats right into quality, regulators scramble to be the lightest touch going and management seek ever more outlandish bonus payoffs, (250% anyone? That's BA's benchmark for you all to aspire to), I think we will see a lot more of this kind of crazy thinking and bizarre behaviour.
Stability and safety used to be the core values an airline sought - not much chance of that now. Am I alone in wondering whether the industry is coming to a crossroads where some very hard choices will have to be made as to the way ahead? God forbid that a major incident is the trigger for such a review.
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Safety is our FIRST priority!
I used to believe it ShortfinalFred, I really did. 
But I dont anymore, maybe its number 2 or 3 now, if we are lucky.
However, and it's a big however, My first priority IS safety, and I feel that goes most of my co-pondies! I guess its the same with you lot. I'm sure that if it wasnt for the way our two groups behave there wouldnt be much of an airline left.
And what do we get for this? A new (temporary) management team that want to screw us out of our agreed deferred pay. Our pensions.
Well, I for one will not make it easy for them.
As overstress says.. http://www.befairba.org/
PLM
But I dont anymore, maybe its number 2 or 3 now, if we are lucky.
However, and it's a big however, My first priority IS safety, and I feel that goes most of my co-pondies! I guess its the same with you lot. I'm sure that if it wasnt for the way our two groups behave there wouldnt be much of an airline left.
And what do we get for this? A new (temporary) management team that want to screw us out of our agreed deferred pay. Our pensions.
Well, I for one will not make it easy for them.
As overstress says.. http://www.befairba.org/
PLM
PPRuNe Person
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As overstress says.. http://www.befairba.org/
It's good to hear. Our engineers are a highly professional and dedicated bunch. It was shameful the way the BHX eng's were treated during the A319 debacle.Looking forward to your support. This won't go away until BA drops this assault on its workforce.
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BA Pilots & strike action.
I wonder if there are any Flight crew who are still at BA who did their level best to help management break a bitter eight week strike at LHR this of was some 24 years ago, but their actions at that time laid the foundations for the present lack of sympathy that other BA staff feel for their situation.
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So how many current staff do you think remember a strike 24 years ago in a nationalised airline and still bear a grudge about it? I'd hazard a guess that a significant proportion of the staff at BA weren't even born when that happened, let alone know if it.
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Nice try sid but there are 2700 NAPS members, <100 APS members and around 200 BARPS members, all of whom are FOs. Whilst the support of BARPS members would be a nice gesture, the legality of their support is uncertain and is certainly not needed to ground the airline.
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Sid,
BALPA will not enter negotiations regarding NAPS unless the deal on offer to those on BARP is improved to one which is industry leading. Whether or not there's a chance of getting those guys onto NAPS is another issue. The BARP guys have an awful lot more to lose if they don't back the campaign. The pensionable pay increases (on which BARP is also based) will be restricted to inflation. That will cost an effective 56% of the pension at retirement in 30 years time. I'm on NAPS and that will be a significant hit. Those on BARPS will not even have a pot to p!ss in.
If they choose not to join us (it may yet be deemed illegal), the BARPS guys are all at least fifteen years from command so even if they turn up, they won't be going flying anyway.
BALPA will not enter negotiations regarding NAPS unless the deal on offer to those on BARP is improved to one which is industry leading. Whether or not there's a chance of getting those guys onto NAPS is another issue. The BARP guys have an awful lot more to lose if they don't back the campaign. The pensionable pay increases (on which BARP is also based) will be restricted to inflation. That will cost an effective 56% of the pension at retirement in 30 years time. I'm on NAPS and that will be a significant hit. Those on BARPS will not even have a pot to p!ss in.
If they choose not to join us (it may yet be deemed illegal), the BARPS guys are all at least fifteen years from command so even if they turn up, they won't be going flying anyway.
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I'm not a big PPruner, but thought I would add my twopenneth from the viewpoint of the BARPers in this whole debate.
Hand Solo,
I just love your hardline views! you are right that BARPers and APS are insignificant at the moment, and certainly couldn't run a schedule by themselves, although I would like to correct you that there are 300 in BARP (and growing by the week).
The point is not what happens now as a result of the proposed changes to NAPS, but what happens in 10 or so years time. Of course you may not care because you may be long gone by then, but many of your colleagues will be around and BARP will by then be 50%+ of the pilots. If there is still a NAPS deficit as there certainly would be if the scheme is not changed now, then would there be any support for your strike then? Of course not and the company could drastically reduce the benefits without opposition. Those taking the pain will be those with more than 10 years to serve from now. So to be fair to all NAPS members it is more equitable to make the scheme affordable and sustainable for the long term now, which means cuts.
Human Factor,
A rare voice of reason on this forum!
Unfortunately those in BARP already have no pot to pee in so have nothing to lose in this fight anyway. If however BALPA stands by its promises and demands an industry leading contribution to BARP as part of the overall negotiation then a unity of membership may yet be acheived. This is important not just for this issue but for all future issues, as I have already pointed out that BARP members will ultimately be the majority of pilots in BA.
From where I sit, 15% of gross salary company contribution is the industry standard for defined contribution schemes eg Virgin. Compared to the 30% plus that BA is paying into NAPS that is cheap by comparison, so is not an unreasonable demand.
Barney
Hand Solo,
I just love your hardline views! you are right that BARPers and APS are insignificant at the moment, and certainly couldn't run a schedule by themselves, although I would like to correct you that there are 300 in BARP (and growing by the week).
The point is not what happens now as a result of the proposed changes to NAPS, but what happens in 10 or so years time. Of course you may not care because you may be long gone by then, but many of your colleagues will be around and BARP will by then be 50%+ of the pilots. If there is still a NAPS deficit as there certainly would be if the scheme is not changed now, then would there be any support for your strike then? Of course not and the company could drastically reduce the benefits without opposition. Those taking the pain will be those with more than 10 years to serve from now. So to be fair to all NAPS members it is more equitable to make the scheme affordable and sustainable for the long term now, which means cuts.
Human Factor,
A rare voice of reason on this forum!
Unfortunately those in BARP already have no pot to pee in so have nothing to lose in this fight anyway. If however BALPA stands by its promises and demands an industry leading contribution to BARP as part of the overall negotiation then a unity of membership may yet be acheived. This is important not just for this issue but for all future issues, as I have already pointed out that BARP members will ultimately be the majority of pilots in BA.
From where I sit, 15% of gross salary company contribution is the industry standard for defined contribution schemes eg Virgin. Compared to the 30% plus that BA is paying into NAPS that is cheap by comparison, so is not an unreasonable demand.
Barney
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barney,
not sure about your 50% of pilots being in barps in 10 years time, but i'm pretty sure that almost none of you will be in the left hand seat at the time so i'm guessing we will still have a major say!
mute point anyway because the real issue is we are all getting fecked with and we both only get better deals by sticking together.
unfortunatley you and the rest of the new joiners joined the company accepting the new and woefull pension. your willingness to see my pension reduced as some sort of moral leveller for the pittance your getting is flawed my friend. you decided to join ba on the deal they offered you, i wouldn't have, but you did. i agree that barps is a disgrace. however was i willing to strike for people not yet in the company who would do my job for less money and crap pension? think not!
unfortunatley the race to the bottom has made people like you join the company on T&C's that people like me wouldn't have considered. if you feel the best way to protect your future in the company is to support managements rape and pillage then i'm guessing your ww idea of the modern pilot. i for 1 don't expect to see you on the picket line, but i can't believe you think that naps members should pay for our new long haul fleet and ww bonus either!
as ww attempts to turn us into to ryan air with champange i fear it will be chaps like you, desperate to join but bitter that you don't have the deal that the rest of us have that will make it easier for him to screw us all. as i've said this is not an issue that directly affects you or one that i expect to see you stike over. however the result will have a direct influence on the negotiating position that balpa can take in the future.
2 many desperate plane spotters with atpls who will work for free going to put us all in the crapper barney, if you will join for a crap pension 1 of theese clowns will join for no pension!
no doubt standards remain high and pax safety not affected by the drive to put the cheapest pilot possible in the cockpit!
not sure about your 50% of pilots being in barps in 10 years time, but i'm pretty sure that almost none of you will be in the left hand seat at the time so i'm guessing we will still have a major say!
mute point anyway because the real issue is we are all getting fecked with and we both only get better deals by sticking together.
unfortunatley you and the rest of the new joiners joined the company accepting the new and woefull pension. your willingness to see my pension reduced as some sort of moral leveller for the pittance your getting is flawed my friend. you decided to join ba on the deal they offered you, i wouldn't have, but you did. i agree that barps is a disgrace. however was i willing to strike for people not yet in the company who would do my job for less money and crap pension? think not!
unfortunatley the race to the bottom has made people like you join the company on T&C's that people like me wouldn't have considered. if you feel the best way to protect your future in the company is to support managements rape and pillage then i'm guessing your ww idea of the modern pilot. i for 1 don't expect to see you on the picket line, but i can't believe you think that naps members should pay for our new long haul fleet and ww bonus either!
as ww attempts to turn us into to ryan air with champange i fear it will be chaps like you, desperate to join but bitter that you don't have the deal that the rest of us have that will make it easier for him to screw us all. as i've said this is not an issue that directly affects you or one that i expect to see you stike over. however the result will have a direct influence on the negotiating position that balpa can take in the future.
2 many desperate plane spotters with atpls who will work for free going to put us all in the crapper barney, if you will join for a crap pension 1 of theese clowns will join for no pension!
no doubt standards remain high and pax safety not affected by the drive to put the cheapest pilot possible in the cockpit!
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Just for info.
When BA closed NAPS to new members about 3 years ago, the unions were not very happy but did nothink, BA told the unions this would ensure NAPS will be ok in the long run.
No surprise that BA want to hack at NAPS now, it's obvious that the sooner they can force any changes to NAPS, the more cash they can save for in house payments to managers.
About 20 years ago, staff were advised by BA that leaving APS and going into NAPS would be good for the company, many did, I don't know of any staff looking back now thinking that a wise choice.
Did you know that under the changes made by Gordon, as of April 2010, NAPS members can't draw pension till 55 years of age, however APS members can draw at 50.
If BA wants happy workers, it should stop the BARP and let all staff into NAPS.
BA only mention cuts to NAPS.
Why don't BA just ask staff to pay more into NAPS and keep present terms and conditions.???
When BA closed NAPS to new members about 3 years ago, the unions were not very happy but did nothink, BA told the unions this would ensure NAPS will be ok in the long run.
No surprise that BA want to hack at NAPS now, it's obvious that the sooner they can force any changes to NAPS, the more cash they can save for in house payments to managers.
About 20 years ago, staff were advised by BA that leaving APS and going into NAPS would be good for the company, many did, I don't know of any staff looking back now thinking that a wise choice.
Did you know that under the changes made by Gordon, as of April 2010, NAPS members can't draw pension till 55 years of age, however APS members can draw at 50.
If BA wants happy workers, it should stop the BARP and let all staff into NAPS.
BA only mention cuts to NAPS.
Why don't BA just ask staff to pay more into NAPS and keep present terms and conditions.???
Last edited by Joetom; 15th May 2006 at 19:07.
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joe, calm down, it's only a forum!
it's a forum matey so it helps if you read the posts. don't think i was preaching about morals anywhere!
unfortunatley you and the rest of the new joiners joined the company accepting the new and woefull pension.
anybody who applied to ba and knew they were joining in barps has absolutley no right to give me a hard time for pointing out that they made an informed decision to join a very poor scheme.
i like the rest of the ba pilot body so no point in IA to gain benefits for pilots yet to join the company. we rather niavely thought that ba wouldn't get the standard required and would have to up the package. the jury is out on that one!
now that naps is under fire we will strike to protect the deal that we joined for. the stupidty in moaning to me that i didn't strike whilst you were at easy/ryan/bax/wherever so that you could get a better deal WHEN YOU MANAGED TO JOIN is breathtaking.
as for 'my types' occupying seats. by that i take it you mean averge joe's who come to work, pass sim chxs and rts chx first time and without fuss. work hard to operate in a safe and happy enviroment, support my union and the rights of fellow employees and just expect my company to deliver as promised on the agreements they made with me.
maybee we need more of your type, no doubt the best a man can be and just happy to be living the dream. all the better if it's at the expense of those nasty BA pilots who had life so easy until hard working chaps like you came to save the company with your cheap cost base and acceptance of your terrible barp scheme.
your in the company now mate, i'll support you 100% in your quest for better t&c's now that your part of the team and have more than a passing interest in the future of our company and our place in it.
if you are really in BA please make the point to all the captains you fly with that they should have gone on strike to make your change of company even better and sweeter for you. maybee you'd like merged seniority and how about a date of joining based on when you got your atpl, not counting cadets and ex-raf of course cause they got it to easy etc etc etc
edited to ensure sum extra spulling mostakes
it's a forum matey so it helps if you read the posts. don't think i was preaching about morals anywhere!
unfortunatley you and the rest of the new joiners joined the company accepting the new and woefull pension.
anybody who applied to ba and knew they were joining in barps has absolutley no right to give me a hard time for pointing out that they made an informed decision to join a very poor scheme.
i like the rest of the ba pilot body so no point in IA to gain benefits for pilots yet to join the company. we rather niavely thought that ba wouldn't get the standard required and would have to up the package. the jury is out on that one!
now that naps is under fire we will strike to protect the deal that we joined for. the stupidty in moaning to me that i didn't strike whilst you were at easy/ryan/bax/wherever so that you could get a better deal WHEN YOU MANAGED TO JOIN is breathtaking.
as for 'my types' occupying seats. by that i take it you mean averge joe's who come to work, pass sim chxs and rts chx first time and without fuss. work hard to operate in a safe and happy enviroment, support my union and the rights of fellow employees and just expect my company to deliver as promised on the agreements they made with me.
maybee we need more of your type, no doubt the best a man can be and just happy to be living the dream. all the better if it's at the expense of those nasty BA pilots who had life so easy until hard working chaps like you came to save the company with your cheap cost base and acceptance of your terrible barp scheme.
your in the company now mate, i'll support you 100% in your quest for better t&c's now that your part of the team and have more than a passing interest in the future of our company and our place in it.
if you are really in BA please make the point to all the captains you fly with that they should have gone on strike to make your change of company even better and sweeter for you. maybee you'd like merged seniority and how about a date of joining based on when you got your atpl, not counting cadets and ex-raf of course cause they got it to easy etc etc etc
edited to ensure sum extra spulling mostakes
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Originally Posted by the heavy heavy
unfortunatley you and the rest of the new joiners joined the company accepting the new and woefull pension.
anybody who applied to ba and knew they were joining in barps has absolutley no right to give me a hard time for pointing out that they made an informed decision to join a very poor scheme.
i like the rest of the ba pilot body so no point in IA to gain benefits for pilots yet to join the company. we rather niavely thought that ba wouldn't get the standard required and would have to up the package. the jury is out on that one!
However one can not blame someone outside the company for deteriorating terms and conditions. One has to be introspective and it's clear that everyone is just looking after their own.
You agree on the BARP scheme being awful but you let it happen.
I'm happy to support you guys since it will affect us aswell in the future but saying that it's our fault is just bollocks.
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the stupidty in moaning to me that i didn't strike whilst you were at easy/ryan/bax/wherever so that you could get a better deal WHEN YOU MANAGED TO JOIN is breathtaking
I am not in BA, thank God, but I have narrowly missed out on a final salary pension twice in my career, and there seems to be no end to the supply of pilot negotiators who are happy to let this sort of thing continue to happen.
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jesus wept!
shaka,
not blaming you for barps, i'm only pointing out that you signed up to the deal in full knowledge of its shortcomings.
i signed up for naps. i also knew exactly what i was being offered.
the company is seeking to deny me what it promised. that is a very different issue to the barps situation in which you signed up to a crap deal and now seem to want me to accept the blame for your decision.
your decision to join ba had many angles i am sure. i would not have joined the company, transfering my mod pension at the same time, had i been offered barps or had known what www had planned for naps 7 years down the line.
i would have loved to have been on aps, you don't hear me or the other naps members blaming aps members for the problems we are facing.
barps and naps are fights that are linked in so much that we need to fight to get the best we can for people ACTUALLY IN THE COMPANY. i'm afraid i was not strking for guys who are sitting in other companies with fingers crossed that we go down so they can take the jobs we get fired from whilst on strike!
you joined on your scheme, i appreciate your support in the fight to protect our scheme. you will have mine when you fight for the improvement in yours.
shaka,
not blaming you for barps, i'm only pointing out that you signed up to the deal in full knowledge of its shortcomings.
i signed up for naps. i also knew exactly what i was being offered.
the company is seeking to deny me what it promised. that is a very different issue to the barps situation in which you signed up to a crap deal and now seem to want me to accept the blame for your decision.
your decision to join ba had many angles i am sure. i would not have joined the company, transfering my mod pension at the same time, had i been offered barps or had known what www had planned for naps 7 years down the line.
i would have loved to have been on aps, you don't hear me or the other naps members blaming aps members for the problems we are facing.
barps and naps are fights that are linked in so much that we need to fight to get the best we can for people ACTUALLY IN THE COMPANY. i'm afraid i was not strking for guys who are sitting in other companies with fingers crossed that we go down so they can take the jobs we get fired from whilst on strike!
you joined on your scheme, i appreciate your support in the fight to protect our scheme. you will have mine when you fight for the improvement in yours.
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Originally Posted by Joe le Taxi
I am not in BA, thank God, but I have narrowly missed out on a final salary pension twice in my career, and there seems to be no end to the supply of pilot negotiators who are happy to let this sort of thing continue to happen.
your not in ba, you have missed out on 2 final salary schemes, and it's everybody elses fault.
no worries mate, off to get my ballot form
Last edited by the heavy heavy; 15th May 2006 at 18:30.
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Anybody spot that article in one of the business sections today about BTs pension deficit? Apparently due to improving bond yields, fund performance, blah blah blah their deficit is down from £3.6Bn last year to £2.2Bn this year. Funny old thing.
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BA is currently running at 8% return. 10% triggers a bonus for managers of between 150% and 200% of annual salary. If they can persuade the employees to give them the pension deficit it raises return over 10% without having to do anything difficult, like dragging the airline out of the 1970s. Altogether its a bit of a no brainer if you are a manager.